Curiosity, applied.
Dedicated to exploring the scale, shape and velocity of change in the business world as our economic system adapts to sustainability challenges and climate risk, this podcast brings together leading change-makers for meaningful, in-depth debate.
Curiosity, applied.
The Modern CSO - A New Path to CEO?
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The Chief Sustainability Officer (CSO) role has undergone a radical evolution. Once focused primarily on voluntary reporting, policy formation and goal-setting, today’s CSO are strategists, futurists and value creators, that drive commercial impact while shaping business culture and long-term performance.
In this episode, Liz Brown, Chief Strategy & Sustainability Officer at Inchcape, and Andrew Lowe, Senior Client Partner, Corporate Affairs & Sustainability, EMEA at Korn Ferry International, explore how the CSO role has evolved into one of the most strategic positions in global business. They unpack the traits, capabilities and organizational expectations needed to thrive and why the CSO role is now a stepping stone to broader executive leadership roles.
Key learnings from this episode:
- Understand how the CSO role has shifted from reporting-focused tasks to a strategically critical position that shapes business direction, culture and long-term value creation.
- Explore why sustainability teams are increasingly prioritizing strategy and transformation, while functions like finance, legal and risk teams take the lead on compliance and reporting.
- Uncover how growing board involvement is redefining expectations for CSOs, shaping the skills, mindsets and experiences organizations now seek.
- Learn what differentiates top CSOs today, including the ability to translate sustainability into commercial value, navigate emerging risks and build enterprise-wide influence.
Host:
- David Metcalfe, CEO Verdantix
Guests:
- Liz Brown - Chief Strategy & Sustainability Officer at Inchcape plc
- Andrew Lowe - Senior Client Partner, Corporate Affairs & Sustainability, EMEA at Korn Ferry International
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Hello, I'm David Metcalfe from Verdantix. We are an independent research data and advisory firm helping you to reimagine the big picture with regular insights. I'd like to welcome you to the Curiosity Applied podcast, where we debate topical issues relating to the scale shape and velocity of change in the business world. Today we will be talking about the evolving role of the Chief Sustainability Officer. To discuss this timely topic, I would first like to welcome Liz Brown, who is the Chief Strategy and Sustainability Officer of Inchcape, the world's leading independent automotive distribution partner, which has 16,000 employees across more than 40 countries and is listed on the London Stock Exchange. Welcome, Liz. Thanks. We're also joined by Andrew Lowe, senior client partner in Kornferry's Global Corporate Affairs and Sustainability Practice. Kornferry specializes in executive search, talent management, and organizational consulting and has approximately 10,000 employees located in more than 50 countries. Welcome, Andrew.
Andrew Lowe:Great to be here. Thanks, David.
David Metcalfe:By way of introduction, I thought I'd flash back to 2010 when we saw the first generation of CSAs being appointed. And many of those people, I think, had spent time in an NGO, often an environmental NGO. They then moved into corporate comms. And at the time that aligned really well with what sustainability functions were tasked with through the 2010s. A lot of work around voluntary reporting and setting out the vision for sustainability. So let's fast forward now, 2025. How different are the responsibilities of a CSO 15 years later? Liz, you are in a CSO role. Can you just explain what your responsibilities are at Inchcape?
Liz Brown:Yeah, of course. So I've been Chief Strategy and Sustainability Officer at InchCape. I joined Inchcape about three years ago, and I added sustainability into my remit about six months ago. So I started off as chief strategy officer and then I broadened my remit to include sustainability about six months ago. So my remit therefore includes both strategic strategic thinking and thinking about the strategic direction of InchCape, as well as incorporating the sustainability ambition and thinking about our sustainability targets and how we might go about achieving those. So my role encompasses everything strategy and sustainability. And I think it's the intersection of those two elements actually, which is where things get quite interesting. So yeah, I've I've had a fascinating six months getting up the learning curve. And yeah, really, really ready for the months coming forwards as well.
David Metcalfe:Brilliant. And so going to my point about the comparison with the 2010s, how much of your work would you say falls into sustainability communications?
Liz Brown:I mean, communication is just one element of what we what we do. Obviously, communication is an important part. So translating our actions and explaining what we're doing both internally and externally is, and I'm sure always will be an important part of sustainability. But I think sustainability is now much more integrated in terms of the conversation, and that's certainly the case at Inchcape. I think sustainability is much more about now business outcomes, it's got to be much more linked to value creation, and we have to show how sustainability initiatives can really drive growth or support resilience. So it's a world, I think, to be far different now from just a comms-driven exercise or or even a regulatory-driven exercise or a compliance-driven exercise. I think it's much more part of the business conversation now and therefore much more integrated into the fabric of the organization.
David Metcalfe:Okay, interesting. So the comms bit is still there, but it's definitely not the priority that it was before. Andrew, at Confari, of course, you're um hired to help organizations find or develop people for these roles. And what are you saying in terms of, let's say, the last 12 months or so of assignments around the CSO position?
Andrew Lowe:Hmm. Um a resurgence, I would, I would say. There's there's obviously been not a hiatus, but but I do think we've been through a period of um, let's just say it's been quieter on the recruitment of chief sustainability officers for for various reasons on the global scale. But I think right now, and and leaning into very much what Liz was saying around how the role has evolved, you know, businesses are looking to their chief sustainability officer to be a strategist, a futurist, a connector. You know, it's about delivering measurable results and and contributing impact to the to the bottom line. The the kind of reporting and and communication and some of these more tactical elements are kind of price of admission and still still important, but but for me, the the the essence of of the role is much more sort of upstream. And there's there's more than than a commercial aspect to it as well. I I think chief sustainability officers are very much involved in shaping and setting not just business strategy but culture. You know, so we see a lot of requirements uh to how do how do we upskill our workforce? And and that's part and parcel of embedding it across the organization. And then you're in the realm of culture change and transformation. And uh so if you if you think of all of these different component parts um sort of coalescing under the remit of the chief sustainability officer, um that's a significant um evolution. And I think where we are right now at this point in time is business businesses see huge value in that. So it's it's not a risk exercise, it's not a compliance exercise. It's it's actually a point of of differentiation and long-term um performance. So when we are working with clients, helping them to define the particular unique success profile for their chief sustainability officer, those are the sorts of things that are being put on the table rather than maybe four or five years ago it was technical understanding of you know climate reporting, or can they design a net zero pathway for us? And that's all still important, but but the the the essence of the role and the leadership requirement has changed significantly, I would say.
David Metcalfe:That's interesting. And and I suppose the challenge in 2025 is there's been so much policy change that um CEOs and boards could have like struggling and truly know what did the business really need, because to some extent that's dictated by external forces. So it's interesting that now there's more clarity in terms of uh what uh the focus should be. Liz, if I can uh come back to you to expand on uh one of your earlier comments, um I mean by definition your role marries strategy and sustainability. Um and and and so I'm just interested to know, do you think this is really applicable to all companies? Or is it something that is unique to educate?
Liz Brown:I think this is I think this can be compatible with all companies, actually. I think um bringing strategy and sustainability together just makes good business sense ultimately. Um if you think about strategy really being about choice, so it's about it's about making choices, it's about prioritizing resources, it's about prioritizing and choosing around um talent and where to invest and where to um where to choose and where to prioritize. So, and and you do that to to figure out where you can have most impact. And that's relevant across strategy and sustainability as well. So that's one, I think, one clear link. I think the other clear link is around goals and ambitions. So I think linking sustainability goals to strategy and linking sustainability goals to value creation, very importantly, I think that's also um relevant for all companies. It's not it's not just Inchcape at all. Um I can give a couple of examples to elaborate on that actually. So at Inchcape, and this is one of the um key projects I undertook when when I took on my my role at Inchcape, um, was to evolve our Inchcape strategy. And in that evolution of our strategy, um, we we uh saw sustainability as really underpinning our strategy. And what does that mean? What does it mean to underpin strategy? I think it means that the goals and initiatives we have in our sustainability ambition and framework support our strategy. So everything we do in terms of sustainability is in ultimate um support of our strategic ambition and our and our goals. Um so I think that's you know, there's some there's some further examples I can give there in terms of our specific goals and um and ambitions, but but ultimately it's about um supporting value creation, linking goals to strategy and prioritizing resources so that you can have the most impact.
David Metcalfe:And and do you think that it's necessary to have one person who is responsible for both? Um on a prior podcast, we had somebody from a large material science company, and they were head of enterprise sustainability, which effectively meant the strategy and commercial bit, innovating around sustainable materials. And then there was a separate person who is effectively in that corporate leadership role. Do you think that can also work?
Liz Brown:I think that can work as well. I don't think it necessarily needs to be one role. I think it's quite unusual to have strategy and sustainability in one role together. I think it's a, you know, it's it's a great option, but I don't think it's the only option. I think the key is to have that real link and to be bringing sustainability into the conversation at the exec level, at the board level, so that the sustainability ambitions and initiatives can be really closely linked with the strategy of the business, so that the leaders of the business can then go out and understand how what they're doing and how they're operating can also be in service of sustainability goals.
David Metcalfe:Interesting. Andrew, at Kornferry, are you seeing this trend where that strategic thinking, the strategic mindset is becoming more important in either in talent development and organizational design or in the actual job descriptions that you're working on?
Andrew Lowe:Certainly on the Chief Sustainability Officer side. And I would I would just quickly um build on what Liz was talking about there. The question was almost central versus federated and and and and sort of breaking up the the CSO responsibility set a little. We see a lot of that business taking ownership and and and having their own kind of responsibility and teams and skill sets within divisions, regions, it whatever, whatever it might be, with then that central CSO role being much more around strategy, advocacy, engagement, and sort of oversight, almost like the the strategic air traffic control freeing the business up to get on with it. I think in the early days when the CSO officers were being stood up and CSOs were being appointed, um, one of the things that we highlighted in a recent report was kind of where did it go wrong? And and as we build version 2.0 of this, it's important to learn those lessons. And I think some sustainability teams did get too big, too broad, you know, probably had 10 to 15 strategic priorities, which by definition is is impossible. So a much leaner uh central organization is is quite common. Um, on your your question around the strategic mindset, completely, you know, if you if you look at how Cornferry would define a strategic mindset, it means thinking ahead, you know, anticipating future trends, challenges, spotting opportunities. There's a big thing around pattern recognition, you know, connecting the dots and and um and understanding how different domains interrelate with each other. And then the managing of paradox, you know, balancing priorities, whether it's the classic short-term performance now versus we need to have transformed the organization to a future um state within a certain um time frame. And then the the one that probably stands out most to me is this making bold decisions. You know, we've we've come through um through various various you know, crises and issues and what have you. Business became quite risk-averse. You know, the the investment in risk and the risk function was huge, and it and it became an environment that didn't necessarily promote healthy uh risk taking and um what have you. So I think this the office of the CSO and the chief sustainability officer taking calculated risks, looking for breakthroughs, and then showcasing those results. And equally, if it doesn't pay off, that's okay too. Like you have to be able to create that that risk-oriented environment in terms of having a strategic mindset as a CSO.
David Metcalfe:Yeah, really interesting points. Um and and hadn't really thought about that kind of risk aversion as a kind of context that uh CSOs had to operate in. Just finishing up on this uh initial sexual uh, you know, the prior evolution where we are at the moment, it seems that people who are sustainability veterans, and you know, I've been um in in operating in this market since 2008. So um I I would uh say I'm part of that crowd. Um there are complaints, if you like, about well, how can we really have these non-technical experts, people who don't really know the GHG protocol inside out and you know haven't followed the evolution of all the reporting frameworks properly and you know don't know their TCFDs from their GHGs type of uh discussion? Um and and so there seem to be complaints that actually CSOs who don't have that you know 10 years of technical understanding can't really operate very well. Uh I mean Andrew, it seems like the majority of people being appointed into roles are not coming from that technical background now. Is that fair to say?
Andrew Lowe:Um case by case, every business will have a different view of its need um around what a successful CSO appointment would look like. And and in very technical, engineering-oriented businesses, to be credible within the business and do the stakeholder management piece, they often look for not just the ability to speak the language, but but depth of understanding. But yeah, as as a as an overarching view, I I would agree with you. Those in the leadership position are much more focused on some of the things that Liz and I were talking about earlier, whether that's um you know strategy innovation, change management, culture transformation, upscaling the workforce. Um I think that level of technical expertise can sit either a level down or across the business. I I don't think you need to have that in your chief sustainability officer.
David Metcalfe:Okay. Okay. Well, I don't want to put Liz on the spot on that question. So let's go on to sustainability governance and the team, which is um what what we wanted to explore, that kind of wider organizational question. Um, I mean, I I I don't know how much historically boards were really so involved in thinking about this. I don't know, you know, if it wasn't that strategic, why would you have boards um uh spending their time on this? And just interest to get your view, um, maybe Andrew, I'll I'll start with you kind of kind of from an overall industry trends point of view. Are you seeing board involvement in shaping the role, or is that still relatively rare?
Andrew Lowe:No, I I think if you were to track five years to now, um even just a simple metric like how many ESG committees or similarly named are there, um, and how many board members are there leading those committees, the increase is huge. I'd argue it's probably closer to 80-90% of the 5100 now. Um so this is absolutely a standing item on the board agenda. And to tell you, I'll give you an anecdote, I wouldn't name the individual or the business, but to tell you how far it's come, I remember one chief sustainability officer privately confiding in me that the head of the ESG committee had sort of taken this person to one side and said, I don't really know how to hold you to account. And and sort of if that's sort of, you know, let's say five years ago, you've you've you've got a board, you've got an ESG committee, and you've got an individual. On paper, it's all there to work. But but in reality, the level of understanding and expertise within the boardroom was was relatively limited. And and so yeah, that that always always makes me smile. Um uh but what a mandate and how empowering for that particular chief sustainability officer that someone was willing to say that and then map out the journey to get to a point where she could. Um so I think there is a lot of board interest.
David Metcalfe:Liz, on the same question. So um you you've got two sets of responsibilities that are interlinked. But how much have you found that you're interacting with the board at indicate on sustainability topics?
Liz Brown:So the board's really engaged on sustainability, actually, which is great. Um the board meets officially three times a year on purely on sustainability, um, and and it's a kind of separate committee. Um, and all topics are discussed, everything from sustainability strategy, targets, risks, opportunities, um, reporting, compliance, communications, all of the those normal topics come um come to the board on a regular basis. So, and it's great to have that kind of separate forum outside the the main board. So you have the dedicated time, you have the dedicated committee with you know with a kind of a roster of agenda items that make sure that we cover everything and and give due attention and and time to all of those different topics. So I think it's a you know, I think it's a good construct. Um I'm you know, I I I've I've I found that uh it to be a helpful sounding board as well in terms of some of the bigger questions we have and and what to discuss with the board. Um so yeah, I think it's a construct that that's worked pretty well for us.
David Metcalfe:Okay, interesting. And is there somebody on the board who's officially focused on sustainability?
Liz Brown:Yeah, there's a chair of the of the sustainability committee who is and and that that's her role um to focus mostly on sustainability as as well as obviously being a um a non-exec director of the main board as well. So yes, we have a you know, I have a counterpart, so to speak, who I can go and and talk to and and raise things with as as needed. So yes, we have that as well.
David Metcalfe:Okay. And and Andrew, then in your view, what you're seeing is because there's more board involvement and exposure, then that is shaping the sort of people who are credible and eligible to be in the CSA role from now on.
Andrew Lowe:Yes. And it it it it also I think provides, I think we'll maybe come on to this, career trajectory and opportunity for the CSO. We've just on the topic of the board, we've done a number of non-exec appointments within the Fit C where it is actually a former CSO that they want uh in the seat. Um and actually right now, one of the trending um elements is private equity. There is a lot of capital, a lot of money that has been raised. Um and either either it is in the consulting arena, so environment and risk services, so supporting businesses on the transition, um, or actually the the firms themselves are bringing in former CSOs as as almost operating partners to go around and sort of perform acupuncture across across the portfolio and drive value. So um uh and then similarly on on portfolio assets, we've done a number of board appointments um in in line with that that sort of investment strategy from the private equity world.
David Metcalfe:Okay. And if we just explore a little bit more then the sort of expertise that needs to be in the team to support uh this new generation of CSAs. Liz, um uh you have a team who are kind of technical experts. Is that your focus? Or do you also have people who may be coming from a strategy background?
Liz Brown:Well, the one of the advantages of having the combined role is I can draw on both my strategy team and my um sustainability team. So, yes, I absolutely have experts. I'm not an expert to one of your earlier points. I'm I've I'm new into the role and I'm I'm learning quickly, um, but I'm not a technical expert in terms of um uh of some of those points you raised earlier, but I do have the expertise around me that I can draw on. And then I have the strategy, my strategy team as well that and I'm trying to do lots of um lots of collaborative work between the teams so I can I can combine their unique expertise between them and and um and harness that to really bring some some new ideas and some fresh thinking to some of the sustainability challenges that we face.
David Metcalfe:And when we think about the compliance agenda, um, I mean, I've certainly had over the last couple of years quite a lot of CSAs I know complaining over lunch or dinner about their resources and budget being pushed into dull compliant projects and and you know that they're not able to do the more strategic and innovative things or even commercial things they would like to do. Uh and I'm just interested to know from you. Are you do you really see that more as a collaboration topic with your colleagues in accounting and legal? Or do you want to have capabilities to work on whatever you know financial sustainability reporting requirements, IFRS um reporting that comes through? Where do you land on that?
Liz Brown:Well, so I again I have the the experts around me, and where their direct line report sits is probably not so much of an issue. I think I see it as more of a collaborative effort between accounting, between my kind of official sustainability team and the strategy team to it to answer all those problems. And I think as long as you're collaborating and very clear about what the outcomes are, all that what the answers are that you need to be driving to, and you're you've you've got your you know your squad of people who can help you get there, I think that's that's the important thing, really. So, but having the expertise in the business on those topics is is absolutely important, and then supplemented by you know the the the usual roster of advisors as as needed when there are particular technical experts that we also need to bring in.
David Metcalfe:And and Andrew, what what what are you seeing in terms of it's an interesting question as we're I think trying to help people who listen to the podcast like where should they focus, where are the career opportunities? Do you do you think there are opportunities for people in you know legal risk uh compliance accounting roles to get into sustainability teams? Or should they really stay in their function and you know become the expert in the finance function on sustainability reporting?
Andrew Lowe:Oh, I I'm a huge advocate for a range of experience. Um there's obviously a place for expertise too, but uh in terms of leadership and reaching the pinnacle of the function, that that breadth is, I would say, critical. Um I was just thinking about that that last question related to that. You know, I've seen a bifurcation, so most sustainability functions are now focused on um strategy and implementation, i.e., future focused, and the the reporting and the compliance piece, which is essentially at best bringing you to the present day only and therefore not really driving change, um, is not necessarily what the best CSOs want to spend their time on, although it is important. Plus, the CFO and the risk team and the legal team have been doing it forever and a day, they're much better resourced to do it, they're much better at it. And so what we're finding is that, yeah, that bifurcation, the the sustainability team focuses on strategy and implementation and change, and involved in and supporting finance and risk, who ultimately will do it better and have the resources to do it more quickly as well. Um, but that then lends itself to if you are a mid-career professional, um, why shouldn't you be the point person in the office of the CFO who's working directly also with the sustainability team and kind of learning your craft that way? Um, I think organizations are beginning to think more about um like take AI as a as a side example that's you know incredibly popular and in a zeitgeist. Um the strategy is that's gonna be more successful, is upskill yourself, train yourself, don't wait on institutions or academia to do it. And I think the same applies for sustainability too. It's you know, some of your own initiatives, some of your own self-learning. Um, one of the roles that we've seen burgeoning in in the office of the CSO is this notion everyone causes something slightly different, but like the sustainability academy, that individual or that team is responsible for upskilling and educating the organization as needs be to deliver commercial outcomes. So I think as a mid-career professional, finding your way through two or three different work streams on the way up to the pinnacle would serve you very well.
David Metcalfe:Yeah, I I really love the uh the distinction made between strategy and implementation looking at the future and then the reporting and compliance, you know, kind of delivering for the uh brass tacks of the current quarter. I think there are some organizations who have built sustainability teams that focus on the reporting and compliance for the current quarter, and probably you know that's a mistake. And you know, when you've brought in someone who's maybe done a lot of uh assurance at one of the big four, because you know, let's face it, 18 months ago in Europe, that seems to like be be the big focus uh for what's going to happen. Um, and so maybe some reorganization will come along. All right, so let's uh think about the career path. Um, one of the things I think is really interesting is historically, if you got into the sustainability organization, and then you'd be thinking about how can we become a VP of sustainability? How can I become a chief sustainability officer, then people really would regard that as the apogee of their career. And I'm sure, you know, for many people that that was a tremendous place to be. But it seems in our discussion today, that thought process has changed. Um, and it's not necessarily the case that the people coming into the CSO role are thinking about it that way. It could be more of a stepping stone. Liz, um, can can you maybe tell me about your predecessor and you know what what have they done?
Liz Brown:Yeah, it's a it's a very good example to draw on, I think. So I I took on the sustainability movement about six months ago, and my predecessor um had been in the roles as chief strategy officer, sorry, sustainability officer, um, and also uh general counsel for Inch Cape, and he had been doing that role for several years. Um, he's now gone off to be the CEO of our America's business, so a very different role, um, and is doing a you know fantastic job over there. So it's been a, you know, I think that's a really nice example of showing not just how someone without a sustainability background can become a chief sustainability officer, but also that those chief sustainability officers can go on to other roles in the business and bring different perspectives to that role as well, and also, and really nicely, take the importance and the value of sustainability with them into their new roles as well.
David Metcalfe:And and Liz, is that how you feel it's being framed at Inchcape? Um, that it's one of the executive positions, and so people coming into the role should not think of it as being a tenured professor, but more, you know, this is a really fantastic way to expand your expertise and skill set. And then, you know, that will help you onto another C-suite role in the future.
Liz Brown:Yeah, I think that's a great way of explaining it. I think if you think about the capabilities that you look you would look for in a in a chief uh sustainability officer, so strategic thinking, long-term thinking, leadership, um, financial acumen, those things are core to any leadership role, really. And so I think the uh a great chief sustainability officer can then go on and play other roles in the organization as well. So yeah, I think that's definitely um how how it's positioned here at Dentcape. Okay.
David Metcalfe:And and Andrew, you've got a broader view across uh a lot of thinking of different countries and industries on this. Do you think that is now becoming a standard part of the CSO, the the career path for CSOs is it's not the top of the pyramid, and then people say, you know, I've really achieved something in my career and I'm going to retire from the CSA role. Um, but then they're actually saying, well, this is a stepping stone onto other executive positions that I'm keen to fulfill.
Andrew Lowe:Yeah, I think so. I've I've seen it, Liz is a great example, albeit combined the other way around, like strategy and sustainability. Together is a really powerful combination. I've also seen it work very well with actually, particularly where there's a big change and communication and sort of culture agenda, HR, I've seen that. And then further along, if you know, if we think about everything we've just described in this leadership requirement that presents for a chief sustainability officer, and then you map across to you know what do we want from the pinnacle of leadership in the organization, the office of the CEO. This enablement and inspiration and ability to communicate and ability to scenario plan and anticipate and things. I mean, there is an argument that actually the CEO role is not at all out of reach, not just for the chief sustainability officer, but for maybe some of those less traditional roles that haven't been the CFO or haven't been GM of the largest division within the business or what have you. So I do think businesses are just rethinking succession and what leadership looks like. And I think that will play into the experiences and the skills that a chief sustainability officer will bring. Not quite a perfect example, but I think of Lena Nair, the CEO at Chanel, long-term CHO at Unilever, for whom sustainability was part and parcel integrated into the business case. And she stepped across to become CEO at Chanel and has been incredibly successful in doing so. So she is sort of one example that comes to mind of someone who embodies those broader leadership experiences.
David Metcalfe:But it's not clear to me that there's a consensus at the moment as to because these hundred people have been in the CSA role for three or four years, they now have the you know this understanding, this skill set, this knowledge, which makes them better candidate to be a CEO. I I I think I think I'd find it pretty hard to say that if I talk to 10 people and they would all give me overlapping, comparable responses to that question. Is that fair? I think we we it feels like we're at the beginning of this realization that in some cases it can add value and that companies can see that, but it's definitely not something that is become a standard thing. Liz Liz, do you do you have a view on that?
Liz Brown:I agree with that. I'd also say, I mean, no career path is the same ultimately. And I think and I think as we were saying at the at the beginning of this conversation, sustainability becoming more integrated into the business means that CSO role is more integrated and and draws on more capabilities that are that are more consistent then with other leaders in the business. So that naturally leads you to a place where a CSO could then potentially become candidates for other senior roles in an organization. But it it's not a it's not a given. And I think you know, I come back to that, my original point, that no career path is the same, every individual is a bit different. So I think every every company will you know will have its own view on on that particular um direction.
David Metcalfe:But I I I mean I I think the the interesting thing we see in our research of Atlantics is the way, especially on the risk agenda, people who've really spent time in sustainability roles thinking about what chief risk officers call emerging risks, and sustainability people just call sustainability risks, really can bring something advantageous to the company. Because if you think about policy risks about renewable energy, which weren't really necessarily so obvious before, or now increasing concerns about physical climate risks, if you look at, say, cocoa bean prices or coffee bean prices, if you have someone who's really understood the impact of sustainability trends on company performance, you may actually get a huge advantage from having someone who's spent three or four years really understanding these things and seeing how they may impact the the business. Um but but it it feels like that's still yeah, it's it it hasn't got fully embedded in the thinking of CEOs, chairs, and and you know, other people on on the board who are um you know looking for the best possible people in these roles.
Liz Brown:Yeah, I mean, I I I think that's another example of long-term thinking, joining the dots, as Andrew was talking about earlier, in terms of what's needed in a in a good CSO. And that's you know, those are characteristics that you would look for in a CEO or any other senior leader of a business. So I think um I think those that example could be, you know, could could be a nice example of showing how a CSO that exhibits those characteristics or and has thought about those particular business problems in that way can then apply that same thinking or bring that same perspective to a broader commercial role, whether that's CEO or not.
David Metcalfe:And and uh do you feel it may change, though, when you have, I think Andrew you're saying, like increasing number of FTSE hundred companies, and I'm sure you know many other comparable firms in developed economies have a sustainability subcommittee of the board, because then you have more people thinking about strategic risks and um, as you were saying, holding the CSA to account on this. So that seems like it's a part of the evolution that you would then expect that level of scrutiny of CSOs and then more understanding of the value that they bring from understanding the issues.
Andrew Lowe:Yeah, I think that's right. And and there's there's there's something about making the case too. You know, we've just been through a period of uh I I lost track of the number of CFOs being made CEO, and and it sort of spoke to a we just need to deliver now for the next you know year and a half, two years, and and then you know, then we'll change. And that's a very short-term strategy. And you know, I there's there's something about um you know the number of companies that that back themselves to be fast followers that adopt that slightly more conservative, safe um approach that that never really pays off because m most, in fact, are not able to do the fast following change. It it it's it's it just takes much longer than that. You have to be more consistent. So yeah, I think um I think the CSOs are very good at at sort of they have agency, they believe that they can make it happen, they have the vision and and they can make the case and and and bring the business with them and not make them um uh subject to some of those short-term pressures that that undermine any change agenda, any change initiative, not just a sustainability related one.
David Metcalfe:Yeah. Yeah, it feels like uh we we could be entering a different period in terms of the sort of leadership that CSOs can bring because you've got different people in the role. They're not so gung-ho about sustainability pledges, that's not what they're doing. It's more about strategy, risk management, risk award, but having an understanding of topics that maybe other people in the organization at that level don't have. So it's an interesting point. All right, so let's move on uh to talk about the future and advice then. Um so we've touched on this a little bit, Liz, about like what would we recommend to people who are mid-career and you know really want to get that CSA role either in their current company or another one in the next few years? Um I think it's clear from what you've already said, develop, make sure you've got those kind of standard executive skills. But what else would you say to them that they should bring to differentiate um their candidacy versus others?
Liz Brown:I think I I think things like attributes like curiosity, um being willing to adapt, being willing to understand where your stakeholders are and meeting them where they are. I think that's also a really important attribute. So to understand that not everyone starts with the same level of knowledge or same position as you, and being able to bridge that and help people really kind of understand and take them along that journey to um to where they need to be. So I think that kind of that attitude is really important and is something I would encourage people to foster um as they're thinking about their career. Um, and also a willingness to you know to live in with ambiguity and change because this is everything is changing, whether it's the regulations, as you said earlier, or um or you know, the the the latest kind of uh sentiment that we that we hear coming out of the US, everything, you know, everything is changing all the time. So a willingness to um to go along with that and be comfortable with that and still find a way to bring impact and and influence across the rest of the business. I think that's also um really important.
David Metcalfe:What about do they need to understand the sustainability strategies of competitors?
Liz Brown:I think having a broad understanding of sustainability and how others are interpreting and and creating their own sustainability strategies is yes, is absolutely I I would put that in the in the camp of understanding um you know the the context in which your company operates. That and that includes understanding the competitive landscape, and that includes understanding, therefore, what your competitors are competitors are doing from a sustainability perspective. So, yes, definitely. I think that's really important.
David Metcalfe:And I think historically what people have tended to do is compare themselves with, say, CDP data or disclosures that they're making. But I suspect it would be more valuable for them to understand, let's take the automotive industry. You would surely have to understand what are the investment decisions around the product range, so the commercial competitive dynamics as opposed to the performance on GHG emissions per manufacturing unit produced. Does that make sense to you? It's like get into the commercials of what your competitors are doing, not their emissions profile.
Liz Brown:Yes, I mean I I think having a broad understanding of what your competitors are doing, emissions and and beyond is absolutely important. And it also depends which part of the automotive value chain you're talking about as well, whether it's the the OEMs themselves and what they're manufacturing and how they're manufacturing their products, all the way through to distribution, which is what InchCape does, which is bringing products to market in terms of which products are being brought to market, how efficiently those products are being brought to market, how um low emissions are the operations in the markets where um where the distributor might operate. So I think it's I think it's uh the automotive industry is you know is vast and there's so many different players, all with different different roles and responsibilities, and therefore different priorities really um in terms of um sustainability.
David Metcalfe:It's really interesting because there's no way we would have been giving this advice probably four, four years ago. So things have really changed in terms of what you need to know about to position yourself for a CSA role. And Andrew, um slightly different question for for you given your position at Conferry, you can see more things going on. Um are you do you see a shift towards more internal appointments of CSOs, or are people starting to look more externally um to fill those roles?
Andrew Lowe:It's a great question. I I think his historically, when the function was still forming, there was a lot to be said for the for the internal appointment because they knew the organization, they knew how decisions to get made, they had those relationships, they had. I think now what we're seeing is in any process, there may well still be an internal candidate who you assess, but as part and parcel of a full external market search process as well. And I think often now we're looking for skills that or experience that doesn't necessarily exist within the organization. And it can be quite specific, it can be nature, we we really were completely lacking in nature, so if our CSO could be the CSO and bring that, brilliant. Um, or it could be a business that's just you know obsessed with how we leverage um AI and what that can do for driving forward the innovation sustainability agenda. So I think more than more often than not now we are seeing um external appointments. Or uh I I won CSU at the minute, um last week, she said I'm I'm I'm they this company that she's at has a register, and you are on that register if there are not two successors in your team. So this you you are you are you're essentially uh encouraged to develop capability within the organ, and and this individual was delighted because the uh the message had come that there were two viable successors within the team and that they were being removed from this particular register. So there is also a next generation of talent that is being developed from from within as well. So it's very unique, it's very case by case. Each company will view it differently, um, but on balance, there are more external.
David Metcalfe:External appointments, do you think that industry knowledge is enforcement?
Andrew Lowe:It really depends on the industry. We our start point is is focus on their leadership and and the contextual experience they bring around change, transformation, uh all these other elements that we've been discussing today. Some industries, however, will, you know, financial services, they it it they will really want to know that you understand how the business actually makes money, and and that can be fairly complex and hard to step into. Um, healthcare might be another where you know there are pretty complex and specific supply chains that without some previous exposure, that that could be difficult. Um, but we always encourage um that almost that industry agnostic start point, and then if you need to focus in, you can.
David Metcalfe:Okay, okay. All right. I I've got a trick question uh for us uh to close out on. So uh here we go. Um I've been hearing for years from people in the sustainability community that uh if they accomplish their mission, then there won't be any need for dedicated sustainability professionals anymore. Now, over that time period, I think the number of people in sustainability roles has increased about 20 times. So um I've never really given this idea much credence. But um what do you think? Over the next five years, Liz, are we going to see people accomplishing the role? And so uh that the mission and so sustainability is just so embedded into organizations that actually don't really need people uh in a separate team? Or do you still think we're gonna see more and more people in those roles?
Liz Brown:Oh, that is quite hard on. I mean, I think it would be amazing to think that ultimately sustainability is just part and parcel of every single business decision that happens in an organization and that every everything a business does is in service of its ultimate goals, strategic and sustainability and financial goals, right? So that would be, you know, that would be the nirvana ultimately. But I don't think that's going to happen really in in the next five or probably even the next 10 years. I think, I think um, without having dedicated people really focusing and and highlighting and um and explaining the need for um for for further embedding of the sustainability in into the business, I think it I think we would we would have some issues and we wouldn't be achieving the um or making the progress that we need to make. So I think it's a great concept. I think it's you know, I I can I can see parallels in in other kind of functions almost actually, but I think for the for the time being and certainly for the for the foreseeable future, I think that's unlikely.
David Metcalfe:Okay, so um that's uh good news for people who are keen to fill these positions. And uh is it good news for Korn Ferry, Andrew?
Andrew Lowe:Uh I mean look, I I completely agree with what Liz just said. There's it it's it's a it's a wonderful tagline. We're gonna work ourselves out of the job, but it it's it that's as far as it goes, really, in terms of substance and and reflecting reality. Um if you just look at where we are tracking um and how far out some of these goals and commitments are, there is absolutely a continued job to be done. And if you look at even some of the you know, so-called leading lights, pinnacle companies, um they're still well stocked. They've got chief sustainability officers and teams, you know, Schneider Electric or whoever it might be. You know, so I this this role will evolve for sure, but it's not going to disappear anytime soon.
David Metcalfe:All right. Well, that's very good news. So uh Liz Browns from Inch Cape and Andrew Lowe from Kornferry, thank you both very much for your time today. It's been a brilliant discussion. Thank you for listening to this episode of Curiosity Applied by Verdantix. If you enjoyed today's conversation, then please leave a positive review and subscribe to Curiosity Applied wherever you listen to your podcasts. Special thanks as always to my amazing production team.
