Caregiving & Legal Documents with Cathy Sikorski

Join Kelly and her guest, Cathy Sikorski, elder law attorney and experienced caregiver.

In this episode:

🔹 Things you can do to positively help you as a caregiver

🔹 Available programs to pay family caregivers

🔹Important legal documents for families and caregivers

 
Find out more info about Cathy:
https://cathysikorski.com/ 

Watch this episode on YouTube:

 https://youtu.be/nBLdQFJMOvU 

For additional information about Kelly, check her out on Linkedin or www.SteadfastAgents.com.

To explore your options for long-term care insurance, click here.

Steadfast Care Planning podcast is made possible by AMADA Senior Care and Steadfast Insurance LLC.

Come back next time for more helpful guidance!

Transcript

Kelly Augspurger  0:02  
Hey everyone, welcome to Steadfast Care Planning where we plan for care to live well. I'm your guide, Kelly Augspurger. Today with me is Cathy Sikorski. Cathy is an elder law attorney, speaker, author, and family caregiver. Welcome, Cathy, thanks so much for being here!

Cathy Sikorski  0:17  
I'm so happy to spend time with you, Kelly.

Kelly Augspurger  0:19  
Likewise, can't wait to get in some really, really good stuff. Today we're going to be talking about family caregiving and legal documents, and Cathy is really an expert in this field. And so she's going to provide us with a lot of really helpful tips. So let's just let's just jump right in Cathy. Okay, so first, I know you've been an informal caregiver to multiple family members for many years. So what have been your biggest struggles as a caregiver? Then what have you done that you think has positively helped you as a caregiver and a person?

Cathy Sikorski  0:51  
So I love, I'm not I'm gonna not lie to your audience. You asked me this question before today, which gave me a chance to think about it and I was really happy about that, because I took some time and I figured out that caregiving, family caregiving, and I love that you say, "informal caregiver," it's a nice way of saying that we're doing this for our families, because it's for friends and lots of other people, right. but there's two ways that this sort of balances out and one is the practical side. This often comes at people before they're ready, before they knew what to do, before they're prepared, it comes into crisis, and all of a sudden, they are hit with so many things they don't know how to handle. Do they have the right paperwork? Who do they call? What are the resources available to them? How much is it going to cost? How do I talk to the insurance company, the doctor, the therapist? There's so much on the practical side that is just heaved at you almost instantaneously. And so of course, the more you can prepare for that, especially if you know it's coming, especially if you have a family member that is either elderly or has early onset something, right, you can see that I'm going to need a lot of help. And so what helps you the most, of course, is looking for resources, which is exactly what you and I are doing today. Things like this will help you so much in the long run, if you listen to it before you actually think you need it because what you're gonna find out by the end of this is that you already actually need it, and you can do some things that will help you. The other side of it is the personal side, is the family caregiver, sure, the person that you're taking care of. Thinking about what their needs are, thinking about who they are as a person, but honestly, what is probably more paramount, and that I've learned after being a caregiver for eight different family members and friends over the last 30 years is I needed to pay attention to what I needed, so that I could be a better person in this hard caregiving life, right?

Kelly Augspurger  2:54  
Yea.

Cathy Sikorski  2:55  
Because the more I paid attention to my own needs, just generally, the better I was able to be less frustrated, less angry, less demanding, and more calm, about getting what my person needed, and then getting what I needed, right?

Kelly Augspurger  3:15  
Cathy, and I'm assuming you're talking about those needs, those physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, really all your needs, right? We're not just talking about maybe physical needs, but really, as a person, what do you need to really thrive and not just survive?

Cathy Sikorski  3:29  
Exactly and stop ignoring that, because if family caregivers are anything, they're givers, that's what they are. 

Kelly Augspurger  3:35  
For sure.

Cathy Sikorski  3:36  
And you have to learn to be a self-taker. There's nothing selfish about self-care, nothing, not one thing. Okay.

Kelly Augspurger  3:45  
If we want to successfully I think be able to provide care for our loved ones, friends, then you have to take care of yourself too. Or else you're not going to be able to do that in the long-term, right?

Cathy Sikorski  3:55  
And people often say that caregivers hate hearing that. What does that mean? I don't have time for that, whatever, and it means a lot of things for everyone, right? But ignoring it and pretending that that's not a part of this crisis only makes it a deeper crisis, because what happens is literally 25% of caregivers die before the person that they're caring for. 

Kelly Augspurger  4:18  
Yeah.

Cathy Sikorski  4:18  
I know, I'm sorry, yeah, but sometimes we have to and you know, this because of what your work is, as well, Kelly, but sometimes you have to bring the cold reality to the forefront, just so you are more willing, as a person to do the things you need to do to make it easier for everyone, including the person that you love and are caring for, right?

Kelly Augspurger  4:39  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  4:40  
So those are the things. The practical side. Let's help you with that, which is more about next, right? The practical thing, some of the things that you need, and then the personal side, whatever that may be for you: time, money. We're even going to talk about money because you know I am such an advocate of caregivers getting paid. Family caregivers should get paid. We've got to stop this nonsense, quite frankly, you know, it's women who aren't getting paid.

Kelly Augspurger  5:07  
Absolutely because women, we generally are the caregivers for our loved ones. You know, it's just by default, I think how our society has really grown over the years is by default, we are the caregivers, and so what does that mean? We're taking away time from our jobs, from our careers, to care for our loved ones. And what does that do to us financially? And I'm sure you probably have, you know, stats on this, Cathy, but it's really a dramatic change in the financial future for women. If we're not able to contribute to retirement, you know, what does that do to our Social Security and our 401ks? It's not good.

Cathy Sikorski  5:42  
All those things, absolutely, and here's the thing, it's a vicious cycle because we're caring for our mothers and grandmothers because they don't have any money. 

Kelly Augspurger  5:50  
Yeah.

Cathy Sikorski  5:50  
Because they did the same thing. Right? 

Kelly Augspurger  5:52  
Yeah. 

Cathy Sikorski  5:52  
And so we got to stop this cycle and there are ways to stop it. There are things in place already to do and to use and actually weirdly, is getting better with time, but you've got to know the tricks and the tips, you got to know it because you can get paid in lots of different ways. Yeah.

Kelly Augspurger  6:10  
So let's jump to that, Cathy, what types of programs are available for family caregivers to be paid?

Cathy Sikorski  6:17  
Okay, so the very first thing is if you are taking care of someone who has assets, if your mother or mother-in-law, or grandmother has assets. So in other words, they would pay a stranger to come in and care for them. There is no reason they can't pay you, right? And so you should go to an attorney, an elder law attorney who knows how this works, and have them set up a family caregiver agreement, which is quite legitimate and really important for a couple reasons. Number one is creeping out in the background is this thing called the five year look back that if somebody gives money away and you ask for them to help pay for nursing home care, "them" meaning the government, use government services, Medicaid to pay, they're gonna say, "Where did all your money go the last five years?" And if they saw that you were giving money to a loved one, they're going to think it was a gift and not payment. So you have to have it legitimized by a contract, perfectly fine, you can do that, and you should do that. And then I say, I go a step further and say, 1099 yourself, pay into Social Security, make this you know, make this an actual payment thing, you should do that for lots of reasons. And if you don't even need the money, desperately, put it into your own retirement fund. Make it your retirement account because I assure you, you're not putting any money into retirement while you're taking care of grandma, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  7:33  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  7:33  
So do that if you can, so that's one way. The other way is there are actually agencies one is called Aidaly, which works with government benefits to help pay family members who qualify. Now qualify just means you can't be a spouse and get paid, you just can't, but you could be a granddaughter, a cousin, a sister, a friend, doesn't matter anybody else. And if your person doesn't have assets that they qualify to have a paid person, then they will work with, you know, getting you whatever the going rate is, I think it's something like you know, $20 to $25 per hour, right? And so, and they'll process it, like you're just an employee, you're an employee, and you're getting Social Security and you're getting if they have benefits, you know, if you can work that in fine. And there's several agencies like that. Every state has different ones. And then the third thing is Medicaid actually does allow for family members to be paid. And that's a process that you have to work through with Medicaid, and an elder lawyer can assist you with that as well. And that's for people, again, who don't have assets. Medicaid is a government program, not Medicare, which is a big confusion, as you know, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  8:44  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  8:44  
Medicare does not pay for nursing home care. Medicare does not pay for people to come in your house and help you generally care for yourself, right?

Kelly Augspurger  8:54  
Right, extended care.

Cathy Sikorski  8:56  
But Medicaid does have benefits and Medicaid will pay some family members under certain circumstances and it's getting better over time. And some of the legislation is moving more and more and more in this direction because we figured out that paying people to care for people at home is cheaper than paying for people in a nursing home even from a government benefits point of view, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  9:18  
Right, so they're gonna save money in the long run. 

Cathy Sikorski  9:20  
Correct. So there you go. So there's lots of ways. Speak to an elder attorney, but yeah, get paid.

Kelly Augspurger  9:27  
Yes. Yeah. Contribute to retirement. Yeah, look out for your financial future. One thing I'd like to add too with long term care insurance contracts.

Cathy Sikorski  9:35  
Yeah, please.

Kelly Augspurger  9:36  
Ask your loved ones. Ask your loved ones: Do you have a policy? If they do, look in that policy to see if they can be paid out in cash benefits? You know, is it reimbursement? Is it cash indemnity? Are you able to pay informal caregivers, for your loved one to provide care for you? So if you are, take advantage of it, use it! Your loved one has paid into this policy for probably many years and if you can get paid that way, do it. Those are tax-free benefits.

Cathy Sikorski  10:04  
It's often overlooked, right? Not only that it's overlooked and people find out their loved one passed away and they didn't even know they had this insurance policy. So I would add to that 

Kelly Augspurger  10:13  
Tragic.

Cathy Sikorski  10:14  
Whether they say they have it or not look through their papers, you've got to do that look through their papers, because often people have it, and they don't even know it, especially if they were a working person and still are kind of, you know what I mean, in the sense that, yeah, they're on disability or whatever. My brother-in-law, who was one of my caregivers, he had multiple sclerosis. We found out very late in the game, he was way he was out of work for years, when we found out he had this long term care policy that we didn't know he had. But thank God, we were able to use it. Yes, yes.

Kelly Augspurger  10:44  
Yeah and if you have a policy, make sure you let your loved ones know. Make sure they know where it is, how to access it, so that they're aware of what to do in the event something happens and you need care.

Cathy Sikorski  10:57  
Yes, put it on the list of things, which leads us to our legal documents, right?

Kelly Augspurger  11:01  
That's right. Yes. 

And now for a brief message from our show sponsor. The Steadfast Care Planning podcast is sponsored by Steadfast Insurance, an independent insurance agency in Westerville, Ohio that provides home, auto, business life, disability, and long-term care insurance solutions. Visit www.steadfastagents.com to learn more.

Tell us what kind of legal documents, Cathy, are important for families and caregivers?

Cathy Sikorski  11:26  
There is no one in this country, 18 years of age or older, who should be walking around without a power of attorney. When my kids went to college, I made them sign a power of attorney because I didn't want the college to tell me they wouldn't talk to me about their financial issues at 18 because they were an adult, or they wouldn't talk to me about their medical issues if they were in a hospital three hours away from where we lived, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  11:50  
Yeah.

Cathy Sikorski  11:50  
Those obviously didn't have to be complex powers of attorney, but I still wanted the capability of dealing with an adult's issues, which my children at 18 were considered adults, and so a power of attorney is that important. Often I will do talks to groups and they'll say "Oh, this is about my mom, or my dad or my grandmother, or you know, my sick loved one. And they don't even understand it." This is about you, this is about you because nobody gets a guarantee, you can walk out the front door now get hit by a bus and you can be 37 years old, and somebody needs to take care of your affairs. And if you have a durable financial power of attorney, and that word "durable" just means it endures if you are incapacitated, which is exactly the point and a healthcare power of attorney or proxy, and they're separate, they're not the same thing. One is for your money. One is for your health, right? And somebody and it can be the same person who's making those decisions, but it doesn't have to be. You can have different people in charge of different things, but those documents are critical, critical critical to taking care of someone. It gives you the authority to do what you need to do. And here's the most important thing I tell everyone: three things should be in that document, and often they are not. Some states don't require it. My state does. We are very snarky in Pennsylvania about what we require. We are strict, but you know, more is more in this case, because if you have it, it gives you more power and it doesn't give you less power. 

Kelly Augspurger  13:20  
Yea probably a good thing.

Cathy Sikorski  13:22  
The first one is unlimited gifting. I want you to go home if you have this document or if you don't I want you to call your attorney and ask about it. You have to have those words "unlimited gifting powers," especially between spouses. So that if your spouse has a $2 million IRA, and you've been caregiving for his mom and your children and your parents, and you don't have any IRA, right, you need access to his money if he has a stroke tomorrow and he can no longer and the only way you have access not because your a spouse, nobody cares, is if you have a financial power of attorney with gifting power. You have to be able to literally gift money to yourself because as you know, and a lot of people don't Kelly, IRAs, 401ks, 403bs, are owned by one person and one person only. 

Kelly Augspurger  14:14  
Right.

Cathy Sikorski  14:15  
They are never, ever joint, ever.

Kelly Augspurger  14:18  
Right.

Cathy Sikorski  14:18  
So nobody cares if you're a spouse. You have no access to that money. So literally your husband can be sitting in a nursing home with $2 million and you can have no money, you can be destitute.

Right you can't access it. 

And the only thing that will give you access is a power of attorney because the next thing is going through the court getting a guardianship so you can take care of him but they're not gonna let you have his money. That's his money and he didn't let you have it. I hate to use that "let you have."

Kelly Augspurger  14:44  
Unless you have that document, right?

Cathy Sikorski  14:45  
That document gives you authority and it's true for everyone. It's true for him having access to your financial power of attorney. It's true for all partners. It's true for if you don't have a partner but you want someone in charge and you want them to make important decisions.  about your legacy, you know about whatever you wan. You've got to have that document. And then you've got to check all your beneficiaries. Check, check, check, check, check, check, check. 

Kelly Augspurger  15:10  
Yeah

Cathy Sikorski  15:11  
But inside that power of attorney, you can have language that says, my person (because I trust them completely, and it has to be that person) can change my beneficiaries, if I forgot to, or if that person died, or if I don't like them anymore, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  15:26  
Yeah.

Cathy Sikorski  15:26  
Which happens.

Kelly Augspurger  15:27  
Yeah. Reality. 

Cathy Sikorski  15:28  
Like it was my first wife and I forgot to take her off the document. 

Kelly Augspurger  15:33  
Yeah. 

Cathy Sikorski  15:33  
So that's a power to be able to change beneficiaries, which is pretty good, because I'm sure you've seen in your lifetime, people who forgot to change beneficiaries or didn't put anything on there, and caused terrible, horrible, no good, very bad things, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  15:49  
Yes, yes, really important.

Cathy Sikorski  15:50  
And the third thing is, you have to have an alternate. Okay, so my husband and I are each other's power of attorney and we travel together all the time. And God forbid, we have an accident, and we're both in the hospital for six weeks, right? And neither of us is able to handle our affairs. We certainly can't handle each other's affairs either. So we've got another person, you know, we've got our kids on there to just pick up the pace in case you need help.

Kelly Augspurger  16:14  
Just in case.

Cathy Sikorski  16:15  
Just in case, right. So those are the three important things in a financial power of attorney, also in a healthcare power of attorney: have an alternate, and also have one somebody has to make healthcare decisions. I don't know which one's harder, it's a dubious honor. 

Kelly Augspurger  16:30  
What about a living will and wills? Who needs one who doesn't need one?

Cathy Sikorski  16:35  
You're gonna probably think this is a surprise, but wills are the things I worry about the least unless you're a person with very significant assets, and you have a very complex plan, or you're in a blended family, you know, there's complexities around what happens if you die, right? Here's the thing you need to understand: powers of attorney are for live people, wills are for dead people.

Kelly Augspurger  16:56  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  16:57  
If you die, your power of attorney dies with you. Nobody has any authority over what happens now that you're dead, but if you're alive and sick, don't tell me you have an executor because it doesn't matter. An executor is only for dead people, right? So people say "Oh, my mom's executor, I can take care of all her affairs." Not if she's living, you need a power of attorney. So lots of people have wills, more people have wills than have powers of attorney and that's great. Wills are great things, you know, check them, make sure they're not old, make sure you didn't shove it in the underwear drawer 30 years ago, and forget about it.

Kelly Augspurger  17:28  
Update it.

Cathy Sikorski  17:29  
Yeah, update your will. Pay attention to what they are. So a will takes care of whatever you want to have done when you die. A living will is a really weird kind of in between thing. It's not a healthcare power of attorney and it's not a will. It's a document that says if I am in a permanent vegetative state, I am not waking up, what do I want done? And a lot of times that will have checkboxes like, do I want palliative care, just take care of me to feel better? Do I want chemo? Do I want to be intubated? Do I want you to do everything you possibly can to see if you can, you know, wake me up. It's really in the vernacular - pull the plug or don't pull the plug document. That's what it is and it's great to have, and hospitals will always ask you "Do you have a living will?" 

Kelly Augspurger  18:14  
Right.

Cathy Sikorski  18:14  
But this, this is why I like it has nothing to do with that. I like it because my mom has eight children. Seven of them are married. All those people have kids, those kids, some have kids, we have 56 people who will come into the room 

Kelly Augspurger  18:28  
oh my goodness,

Cathy Sikorski  18:28  
of my 94 year old mom, if she's on a ventilator or not, you know, she's in a permanent vegetative state and they're gonna have 56 opinions about what we should do, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  18:39  
Yes, yes.

Cathy Sikorski  18:40  
I have a piece of paper that my mom signed that says, "Oh, this is what you're doing. This is what I've decided, and this is what you're doing." And it takes me off the hook. I'm not deciding this. In fact, it might even be not what I would want, but that's what she wants and that's what we're doing. That's why I like that living will because it takes the decider off the hook. The decider is the person laying in the bed. They already decided.

Kelly Augspurger  19:04  
Yeah right. 

Cathy Sikorski  19:04  
So that's a great document for that very reason, especially if you know you're gonna have 56 people in the room telling you different things, right?

Kelly Augspurger  19:13  
Yes, yes because I'm sure reduces tension amongst the family members, because "I'm sorry, you could you could think this, I think this but this is what mom has decided and we have to honor those wishes."

Cathy Sikorski  19:24  
"I agree with you, but mom doesn't agree with us. So we're doing right what mom wants to do."  

Kelly Augspurger  19:28  
That's right. 

Cathy Sikorski  19:28  
Because we will respect her decision. Yeah, it's hard. These are hard things. These are all hard things. And this is why nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants to do it. But let me just say and you know this even with what you do, right, it's a hard conversation while you're in it. Once you're done what a sense of relief. 

Kelly Augspurger  19:46  
Oh, my goodness.

Cathy Sikorski  19:47  
We did it! It's so good.

Kelly Augspurger  19:49  
So thankful that it's over and then you know what, yes, revisit update as you get older.

Cathy Sikorski  19:54  
Kelly will call me again in three years, she'll check in every year and then in three years, you'll say "Are you sure this is still what you want to do?" And I'll be like, "Okay, we should probably talk about that." Yeah, yeah. And then things are happening outside of you, meaning the collective you that have a lot to do with you, but you don't know about like the Secure Act craziness, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  20:17  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  20:17  
Like what's going on behind the scenes, that you have no idea about your money, and how they're talking about? Like, for example, it used to be if you had an IRA, your spouse could inherit it, right? And then it would stretch it out over their lifetime, and then their kid your kids could inherit, and they would stretch it out over their lifetime, and then their kids could inherit it. No, I mean, this would go on forever, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  20:40  
For a long time. Yeah

Cathy Sikorski  20:41  
So now we know, we know, but our clients don't necessarily know that's not the case. So if your client is single, and expects his or her children to inherit this, that's going to be a huge tax hit for them because they have to take it all out in 10 years. So maybe you want to give them the beach house and use all the money to pay for their care, in addition to their long term care policy, use the rest of the money in that IRA, let them pay the tax, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  21:08  
Right. 

Cathy Sikorski  21:08  
It's a whole different conversation that we have to have now. So things can change, even outside of us, even outside of our family dynamics.

Kelly Augspurger  21:18  
That's right. That's why it's so important to work with a qualified elder law attorney, tax professional, financial advisor, insurance specialist, all these people that really specialize, you know, in their niches to be able to come up with a comprehensive plan that's really going to best protect you and your family.

Cathy Sikorski  21:33  
And for my money, Kelly, people like us should be working together with our clients.

Kelly Augspurger  21:37  
Yeah, right. Absolutely, at team.

Cathy Sikorski  21:39  
This is the thing - you deserve a team. As a client, you deserve a team and you deserve a good team, and you deserve a team that can talk to each other. And we have the beauty of what you and I are doing right now, which is being in a room together without being in a room together. There's no reason we can't get on the computer together and talk about these two or three things that are going to affect my finances, my insurance, my health, right, and come up with a plan that everybody agrees is what I want as the client. Yeah, let's do that.

Kelly Augspurger  22:08  
And I think that's a great PSA for people listening is, if you currently don't have that situation, get your team together, you know, start searching for these people. If you don't have these documents done, you want to find a qualified attorney for that. You want to talk to your financial planner, you want to talk to your insurance specialist, and then get them together. 

Cathy Sikorski  22:25  
Yes.

Kelly Augspurger  22:25  
Ask them to meet each other. Ask them how can we best help, you know, help you and your family so that everybody is in agreement and understands what the plan is? 

Cathy Sikorski  22:36  
Yes and you have to be the driver of that. I'm going to tell you that as the client, you have to drive that. 

Kelly Augspurger  22:42  
Yeah. 

Cathy Sikorski  22:43  
But if you are very adamant that this is what you want. This is you know, you want your team working together, then your team will be on board with you or they shouldn't be on your team. 

Kelly Augspurger  22:54  
Yeah, absolutely. Agree. Yeah. Well, Cathy, any final advice on how people can plan for care to live well?

Cathy Sikorski  23:01  
You know, it's twofold, right? It's going to hit you as a crisis probably whether you like it or not, I mean, but people get old, people get sick. So obviously, my advice is get your documents now. Talk to people like you about long-term care insurance, do it now, right? While you're healthy, younger, you can get great, yeah, and younger, you can get a great policy, you can make some good decisions about that. You can do all those things we talked about now, right? 

Kelly Augspurger  23:27  
Yep. 

Cathy Sikorski  23:28  
And then if the crisis hits, and you're dealing with all that other stuff, you already have so much in place, that that stuff doesn't have to be at the forefront. It doesn't have to be I need a power of attorney. Can mom sign it? Is she competent? Like it's done already. It's just "Alright, I'm gonna talk to hospital, the doctor, get a plan medically, I'm going to, we're going to look for a facility together, you know. I'm gonna get paid, I have to take six months off of my job and I'm going to do that, because I'm going to get paid, and I'm going to feel good about being with my mom during this period of time. How cool is that?

Kelly Augspurger  24:03  
Yes, plan now to really reduce those consequences later and to live well. 

Cathy Sikorski  24:08  
Yes. 

Kelly Augspurger  24:08  
And that's what we want to do. 

Cathy Sikorski  24:09  
Yes, yes. 

Kelly Augspurger  24:10  
So don't wait. Don't hesitate. Just do it.

Cathy Sikorski  24:14  
There's a reason they say just do it. 

Kelly Augspurger  24:16  
I know Nike is very clever. Well, Cathy, where can people find more information about you and your services? 

Cathy Sikorski  24:26  
Okay so Cathy.Sikorski@gmail.com, you can email me. My life's an open book for you and you can email me with any questions. I do have a website but it is under construction. So you might be freaked out a little bit. If you go to CathySikorski.com and it says, here's some good blogs and the rest of it's under construction, but it should be done at by the end of January. So CathySikorski.com. Then Amazon has my books, which two of them would be most helpful to your clients, which is "Who moved my teeth?" which is a play on "Who moved my keys?" which is an old business book back in the 80s and 90s about how to, you know, get all this done. The first half is about the legal stuff. The second half is about the practical stuff. I mean, one is actually 60 ways to entertain yourself and your loved one when you think you're bored. How great is that? 

Kelly Augspurger  25:17  
Yeah. Right.

Cathy Sikorski  25:18  
Then and then 12, the most recent one, which I have down at my daughter's house, my three year old says, "Read this book to me. Nonna."

Kelly Augspurger  25:28  
Aww you gotta read the book.

Cathy Sikorski  25:29  
I do because it's got less stories in it. So it's an easy way to it - 12 conversations and each chapter is a conversation with your team, a chapter on your financial advisor, a chapter on your with your lawyer, a chapter with your insurance advisor, a chapter with your mom, your dad, your siblings. Like each chapter tells you how to have these conversations, and move forward to get this stuff done before before you have to get it done.

Kelly Augspurger  25:52  
Right. Oh, so so awesome, Cathy. Thank you so much and I just want to tell everybody, if you don't currently know Cathy, you gotta follow her on LinkedIn, go to her website. 

Cathy Sikorski  26:02  
Oh yeah LinkedIn. 

Kelly Augspurger  26:03  
Yes, yes. Find her on LinkedIn, but not only do you provide a lot of value and information, Cathy, but you have so much humor, and I love it! It's just so relatable and it makes this topic which is heavy, less heavy and more palatable. 

Yeah. 

Just you know what? Yeah.

Cathy Sikorski  26:19  
We put the fun in dysfunction. 

Kelly Augspurger  26:20  
We can still have fun through it. That's, that's right. Totally. 

Kelly, just want to say, I know you're signing off, I want to say if you are not really, you know, aligned with Kelly, you have got to get aligned with her. She brings so much to the table to help you as not only from a long-term care perspective, but just as a person who might be in this caregiving world, who might just have insurance questions about what's going on. Kelly is just a force to be reckoned with and she will bring you so much joy and so much information in a joyful way. Really, attach yourself to Kelly, it's totally worth every minute of your time. I mean that!

Oh my goodness. 

Cathy Sikorski  26:58  
I'm so glad I found you. 

Kelly Augspurger  26:59  
Thank you. I'm so humbled. Thank you. I really appreciate you and your time. Always really great to spend some time with you, Cathy. Have a great day. 

You too. Bye.

Bye bye.