Embracing the Fiction Author Journey

62. The art of earnings: Mastering full-time writing with Sarah Werner

• Erin P.T. Canning / Sarah Werner

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Have you ever dreamed of writing all day long—and getting paid to do so? But then reality sets in, and you start wondering how that’s feasible? How you’d even get started? 

In today’s episode, you’ll hear from Sarah Werner, who shares how she planned to leave her full-time job in marketing, how she discovered the worth of her work, and how she trudged through painful writing gigs that still taught her valuable lessons. 

You’ll also learn how experimenting with your creativity can lead to surprise opportunities and how to connect with your ideal audience.

Topics discussed in this episode: 

  • Sarah’s journey
  • Starting a fictional podcast
  • Making money as a full-time writer
  • Learning about structure, voices, and characters through ghostwriting
  • Using Patreon
  • Acknowledging the worth of your work
  • The power of next steps
  • Marketing your author self
  • Using social media effectively
  • Why you shouldn’t fear sharing your struggles

Connect with Sarah: 

About Sarah: 

Sarah is a writer, speaker, podcast creator, and executive producer whose mission is to help creators find confidence, success, and ultimately delight in their work. In addition to writing and podcasting, she is also a national public speaker who has been invited to talk about creativity, podcasting, marketing, and leadership for TEDx, Austin Film Festival, Podcast Movement, PodFest, PodCon, and more, from her community YWCA to YouTube headquarters.

Books discussed during the show: 

  • If You Want To Write by Brenda Ueland

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Erin P.T. Canning:

Have you ever dreamed of writing all day long and getting paid to do so? But then reality sets in and you start wondering what type of writing could earn you that much money? How would you even know what to charge, and is your writing worth that value? Or even if you do know those answers, just the idea of establishing your own business feels like too many steps. I understand this overwhelm all too well. Even though I got my master's in creative writing, I made a career for myself as a full time editor. Why? Because I had no idea how to earn regular income as a writer. That's why, in this episode, we're going to hear from someone who did figure this out. Joining us today is Sarah Werner. Sarah not only created a career for herself as a full time writer, but she also hosts two successful podcasts, including Write Now with Sarah Werner, which has over a million downloads. In fact, Sarah's success has led to her appearing as a guest speaker at several high profile events. She even landed a deal with Netflix. And yet, like most of us, Sarah didn't start off as a paid writer. Today, as you hear about Sarah's journey, you'll find out how she planned to leave her full time job in marketing, how she trudged through writing gigs that still taught her valuable lessons, and how experimenting with her creativity led to surprise opportunities. You'll also discover what's worked really well for Sarah and what you can do to find your own audience and begin fostering that connection now. Sarah's story is such an inspiration, and you're going to learn so much from her. Just a sec before we begin. If you find this episode inspiring or helpful in any way, please consider leaving a review. Those stars not only encourage me to keep going and produce this show, but also help me to bring you even more amazing guests. Thank you so much. Okay, let's dive into this amazing episode. You're listening to Parents Who Write, the podcast that helps you pursue your writing dreams. I'm your host, Erin P. T. Canning. I'm an author, editor, writing coach, and mom of two young boys. And my mission is to help you prioritize your writing, strengthen your voice, and gain confidence and direction so that you can own your identity as a writer and thrive as an author. Hey friend, welcome back to another episode of Parents Who Write. Today I have with me the amazing Sarah Rhea Werner. Sarah, you've done so many cool things. Why don't we just start off though with you telling us a bit about your writing background and what your journey has been

Sarah Werner:

Oh gosh. For me, writing has always been a way to sort of exist in the world in, like, a safe way.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Mm hmm.

Sarah Werner:

It's been a way to kind of create my own safe haven, my own safe space. Especially as a child, you don't really have control over your environment. so that's, uh, that's how that all got started. Um, presently, I still write for the same reasons, um, uh, I, I write to, um, you know, what's the saying? Write the world in which you wish to live. Um. yeah. So I don't think that's an exact quote, but it's something like that, and so one of the things that I love doing is, um, I switched from blogging to podcasting back in 2014. I was in marketing at the time. I am now, uh, self employed as a writer full time, but I was in marketing for 10 years, and I was willing to experiment. And so I was like, okay, I'll just start a podcast and compare that to my blog and see how it goes. This was 2014, 2015, and it kind of took off. This was Write Now with Sarah Werner, which we have you as a guest on. At the time, there were only, gosh, I think 500, 000 total podcasts in existence versus like 1. 2 billion blogs. And so it was really nice to find a way to, to stand out and so, um, I fell in love with podcasting and I continue doing that. And then when I left my day job in 2017, I was like, I've always wanted to write a novel, but I feel like okay, this is going to sound very silly because I've had a writing podcast at this point for years. And it's like, I don't know how to get it published. Like there were so many obstacles that were horrifying to me that was like querying agents and like.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Uh huh.

Sarah Werner:

and, and like formatting your manuscript and like getting it to look right and knowing how much of it to send to an agent and oh, should I self publish? And it was just this nightmare. And so I went back into where I was comfortable, which was podcasting. And I was like, okay. So here's the thing I could sit in front of my microphone and tell a fictional story. And like, I was like, Oh, I have invented audio drama. No, I didn't. I didn't invent it. Um, but like at the time I didn't know it was a thing. And so I started doing some research and I got really into the idea of producing my own fictional podcast. And so Girl in Space came out in 2017 and kind of took off. The timing was magical, and I'm very grateful for the way that it worked out.

Erin P.T. Canning:

You mentioned that you are a full time writer, and that you make money doing that, right? I don't know about you, but when I got out of, uh, I got my BA in Lit from American University, and when I got out, I was like, I'm gonna be a writer, and I had no idea how, like, what that would look like. Uh, so I became an editor, and I love being an editor, but there's tons of people out there who can't fathom how do you become a full time writer and actually live off of that? So please share your wisdom with our

Sarah Werner:

I would love to as much wisdom as I have I will share. I was in marketing for a decade and during that time I started looking around because I knew I didn't want to be in marketing forever because I had dreams like so many of us do. And at the same time, I also had no idea how to become a paid writer. And so I was just kind of like doing different things. And, uh, at that time I had the Write Now Podcast that was going full steam ahead, and I had a Patreon for that. And I also had started taking on, um, freelance writing gigs and those originally stemmed from my job in marketing. They were just people who didn't want to go, you know, with the agency. They couldn't afford to work with the agency I worked for, but they were happy to work something out with me on the side. Uh, so I did, uh, some of that. I also, um, got connected with a person who ran a ghostwriting publishing business. And yeah, and I started ghost writing books and really that was when it became more feasible. But I think for me, the thing is, um, I really diversified what I was willing to do. And for years, for years and years, it was not fun. Like I would get up at five. I would go to Caribou Coffee, which is a thing here in the Midwest. I'm in South Dakota. And I would write there until like seven 45. And then I would get in my car and drive to the marketing agency where I would work from eight to however long. And then I would go home. But, and like, you're nodding because I think for so many writers, this is very normal. You're working like three jobs at a time plus parenting. And I would come home and I would be like, well, time to work on my passion project. And it's like, I had already spent the day, like writing a book for someone else. And, you know, and, and you get busy, and you volunteer, and I was leading a writers group downtown just because I needed that in my life. And it was a lot. And I honestly that was, that was over 10 years ago. I was in my late 20s at that point. And I had tons of energy. And it's like, even then it was hard. And I think that all these years later, I am still dealing with the burnout from that. As weird as that might sound like, or maybe I've just become a very tired person, either of those, you know, potato, potato. Um, but yeah, that's, that's what it looked like. And I, I wanted to make sure I joined a mastermind group when I was still at the marketing agency. And it was me and two other people who were interested in leaving our day jobs and being self employed. And so the three of us really had a little, like a cabal of like, we'd meet once a week. And we would say, okay, what are your next steps? And we'd really push each other and say, what are your next steps? Do you, did you create your LLC? Do you have a business credit card? Do you have between three and seven independent forms of income of some kind? Um, I really do also want to stress that if you're interested in doing this, for me, it was a good idea to have multiple income sources at the time, just in case. Um, I had like, oh, if all of a sudden the ghost writing place fell through, then I wouldn't all of a sudden be with no income. Cause I'd also have like, oh, I had my Write Now Patreon, and that trickled in a little money. And I was like selling a podcasting course, and that trickled in a little money. And so I just had all of these different income sources. Again, it took a long time to set up, and it was not fun. Um, I ghost wrote seven books, and Like, it was good practice, I suppose, but for me, writing is the act of being myself on the page. Like, that's where I get the fulfillment and value, and like, writing for someone else, it's It was funny because I was like, I'm writing full time. Why am I so unhappy? And it was because I was, you know, I, I was using my writing Um, for something that made me kind of exhausted instead of, um, giving me energy back into my own work where I could exist and dwell and really, um, explore my own thoughts on the page. And so it took a few years. I don't want any of this to sound like it was a fast process. Like, this was gradual over, like, five years. And um, eventually we got to the point where I had enough clients. I was doing marketing consulting. I was doing freelance writing. I was ghostwriting books, and then I was also building websites, and I had the Patreon for Write Now Podcast and a few other things. And we were comfortable enough where it's like, okay. So now let's do things like look for health insurance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And people talk about taking quote unquote the leap, and it was so not a leap. It was sort of like a gradual like crawl up a flight of stairs. It wasn't just like jumping into a chasm and like being free. It was definitely a long process, but it also, I think taking it slow also let me create something that was sustainable and like, wouldn't, uh, flop, you know, if one small thing went wrong. And so I don't know, good, bad, and ugly. What I can say is I'm happy where I am now. I am never going back to work for anyone else. And yep. Yep. Nope. This is it. This is it. This is it.

Erin P.T. Canning:

I love it too. I gotta say, cheers to that because I love what I'm doing right now too. Very interesting about ghostwriting because I've had so many people inquire about ghostwriting. And I do agree that it is a great opportunity for learning. But I can relate to what you were saying because, when I was working on editing non fiction publications, and that was my day job, and I was working on extremely important topics like human trafficking and drug endangered children, which, by the way, I couldn't work on after I had my own children, that was very,

Sarah Werner:

Oh my gosh.

Erin P.T. Canning:

it was extremely heavy, but I was happy to be working on content that I thought was really helping people, but then I would come home and I was very burnt out and struggled to work on my passion projects. And then I had kids.

Sarah Werner:

Lol.

Erin P.T. Canning:

So, right, put all that together. Um, but editing other people's manuscripts and learning how to do that, in a constructive way, helped me to be a better writer, and you seem to have mentioned the same thing. I was curious what, uh, genres you were editing for those, for those seven ghost books. Ghost books? They're now ghost books.

Sarah Werner:

I mean, they kind of are because my name's not on the cover and do they really exist? I don't know. Um, I did learn about structuring. Actually, I learned a lot about how to tell someone else's story. And like how to listen and how to take what they said, because basically the way it worked is you would sit down with a client and they would like info dump to you. And like, you'd be furiously taking notes and you'd come up with a rough outline for the book. And they were mostly like nonfiction self help guru kind of things. Um, and so, yeah, you have to learn how to listen really well and you have to understand what they expect, because a lot of the times they won't know how to explain to you their expectations. Or they'll have expectations and just not let you know what they are. And then, you know, at that point, you know, you write the book and then they're like, Oh, and you're like, Oh no. Um, but yeah, so that was important and it was also good to learn, um, what it felt like to work on writing and get paid for it. And by that, I mean, understanding. Okay, am I going to charge per word? Am I, like, and just even going through and understanding, like, what the values of paid writing look like, um, that was actually very helpful as well. I like to go back to, I don't know who originally said this, but, um, I read it recently in a, in, uh, If You Want To Write by Brenda Ueland, that no word is ever wasted. I mean, at one point I was doing freelance writing for, um, like a sewer pipe company and like, yeah, you know, I had construction clients. But, you know, at the same time you're honing your craft, you're understanding how the words flow together. So, you know. I like to tell myself that it was a good learning experience, but I think the biggest thing I learned is that I was not happy doing that, and I did not want to do that for the rest of my life.

Erin P.T. Canning:

So, I would also imagine that you got two other benefits from that, though. One was, uh, especially if you have these people who are info dumping. I imagine that you also then had to learn how to capture their voice.

Sarah Werner:

Yes.

Erin P.T. Canning:

So it teaches you about just how to convey a different character and a different voice.

Sarah Werner:

Yeah. It was actually interesting because all of the books are from a first person point of view and, you know, AKA the quote unquote author or the person who is sort of sharing their experience through the book. And we would do voice and tone documents. And you have to like, learn how to listen to how they speak and see what they're trying to say. Something that was very helpful was, um, I didn't learn this term until later, but, but comps, like understanding other books, like, Oh, I want this to sound like Seth Godin, or I want to sound like Malcolm Gladwell, or I want to sound like Brene Brown. And like, when you have those touchstones that like, that helps. But it really is a good idea to put together a voice and tone document, um, ahead of time. And that goes for book writing, freelance, uh, content writing, anything like that.

Erin P.T. Canning:

My professor had us do an assignment where he gave us permission to eavesdrop on other people's conversations when we were, like, standing in line in cafes and to just record what they were saying. It sounds so awful, like, when you think about it from, from a privacy situation and people be like, what? You're invading my privacy. But it was just fascinating to record the way that people talk to each other and the different tones that they had and the word choices they would use and how that changed based on age, based on mood, based on setting. Um, so that was like a, I think a week long plus assignment where every day we had to find a location to listen to people. And, uh, I, I gotta say, I love writing dialogue these days. I love

Sarah Werner:

Oh, I do too. It's, it's, I don't know, it's kind of everything.

Erin P.T. Canning:

And then the second thing I was thinking that could still help you, even if you're writing about pipes and construction, is that in the future if you have a character and you need them to have a job, you've got that stuff to pull from that makes that character all that much more believable. So again, no word is wasted, I agree with

Sarah Werner:

I appreciate you saying that. I think, what was it called? Drop form construction? Or slip form construction? I don't know. It was like this like very technical thing. And I'm like, yep, that, I know that thing now. I never like to say that, like, oh, you have to, like, slog uncomfortably through something and, like, come out of the other side and whatever, but, like, maybe that was part of it, too.

Erin P.T. Canning:

So you mentioned Patreon, and again, that's something that a lot of writers are curious about, so can you talk to us about how that helps bring income, but what you're providing for your audience and that balance?

Sarah Werner:

So yeah, I started my first Patreon, I think in 2013 or 2014 for the Write Now Podcast. And then when I launched Girl in Space, I launched a separate Patreon for that because the two audiences are very, very different. Patreon is a third party donation platform where people can donate. At the time it was either per episode of the podcast that you recorded, or they could pay monthly and, um, it was kind of nice to have one of each. So the Write Now Podcast was per episode and then Girl in Space was per month just because so much time was lapsing between episodes. And honestly, most people give like either a dollar an episode or a dollar a month. Um, I have different tiers and each of those tiers, um, they get different things. I moved very quickly away from offering physical rewards because mailing and shipping and keeping track of things like at the very beginning, it's like, oh, if you join at the 3 per episode level, you'll get a key chain and I'll write you a letter every month. That got to be like a whole nother job. And so I would definitely advise leaning towards digital rewards that like are a one time download. Um, the other thing that I did that worked really nicely was shout outs in the episodes. That was pretty easy to keep track of, um, who to thank for each episode and at what tier. So, you know, starting at 3 a month or 3 per episode, you get your name mentioned in the credits. Um. So that, that kind of stuff ended up working a lot better than the physical rewards. Um, something else that, you know, it was kind of frustrating, but that I've seen kind of across the board was that something like less than 1 percent of your audience will donate on, you know, insert platform here. And that kind of sucks. And it's weird because like I'm so grateful for these people because they keep the show running and I mean even at the beginning when I was making 3 an episode from two donors, that money is going toward my hosting fees or going toward, you know, whatever. Um, but yeah, that it can, it can feel very discouraging.

Erin P.T. Canning:

I know a lot of writers, especially when they're starting out, struggle with owning their worth and what they have to give. My mentor, had so many conversations with us about helping us to acknowledge that we deserve to get paid. And it still sounds weird in my mouth to say those words, but we're putting all this time and this effort in the knowledge, the experience, you know, but still a lot of people still have a hard time assigning worth to what it is that they are producing and putting out there. And I'm very much in the category that writers should get paid for what they're doing. And I remember in the beginning, a lot of times with submissions for short stories and whatnot, there's nothing. So, maybe speak to that a little bit?

Sarah Werner:

appreciate this so much, So I graduated college during the recession. Like right at the beginning of the Great Recession, and I had friends who had a degree in physics, and they were working the night shift at 7 Eleven. And I was working in, uh, at the time I was working downtown Chicago for a software company where I would do license auditing. Fascin no, it was not fascinating at all. It was, it was a slog, and it was terrible, but it paid. And it's so interesting. At the time, I thought about writing as a luxury. I thought about writing as like a reward in and of itself. It was something, at the time it was a hobby. It was something that I got to do for myself when I got home from work. It felt like an indulgence. And at that time also, since we were in the recession, a lot of my friends were writing, quote, for exposure, unquote. Um, so they would write articles for the red eye or whatever. And, um, the, the deal was they'd write it. They wouldn't get paid for it, but their name would quote unquote, get out there. And so I don't know if that's as common today as it was. I'm sure it is actually. I'm sure that people still. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sure that's still

Erin P.T. Canning:

Uh huh. Yeah.

Sarah Werner:

Like, oh, yeah, your name will get out there. It's kind of gross and abusive and manipulative, but that's kind of where I started. And as I continued writing, I was writing for fun, and I continued writing for myself for fun through my next couple jobs. And then when I got to the digital marketing agency, uh, where I worked for 5 years and I started looking at freelance writing, it was such a mindset shift. So, to go from writing as my special treat to writing as something that's like work, that's something I should be compensated for, it was just such a strange thing. Something that did help was that the marketing agency, uh, you know, that I was working for charged hundreds of dollars an hour. And I was like, well, if they can charge X amount of money per hour for the work I'm doing for them, why can't I charge something a little bit more reasonable? You know, not hundreds of dollars, but maybe like, you know, whatever an hour. There are also some really great guides online. If you end up doing nonfiction writing or content writing, or if you write articles, et cetera, if you end up doing some editing, which I'm sure you know, Erin, um, there are great guides online to see, oh, per word with this much experience, here's how much I should be making or here's how much I can ask for. But it was, it was very strange, um, making that transition. And I, I still struggle with it today. Honestly, I struggle with there's episodes of the Write Now podcast about this. It's like, Is Writing Work? What kind of writing is work? When is writing fun? What is the difference between fun and work? What does it mean to expend versus gain energy? It still continues to be this like weird nebulous thing. Um, At the beginning I was putting in hundreds of hours on Girl in Space, for example, and I was getting four dollars a month at the very beginning. And it's like, okay, that comes out to a small fraction of one cent per hour of work I put into this. And then in 2019, I landed a deal with Netflix to turn Girl in Space into a TV show and for one, 30 minute pilot. But, you know, the whole thing is, basically everything at Netflix gets canceled. And so we had written the pilot though, and for this 30 minute pilot, they paid me six figures. And I'm not saying that to, like, brag, but it's just, like, the amount of time I spent co writing that pilot versus the hundreds of hours that I put in, you know, to literally any other creative work I've done. It's just so arbitrary, and that is

Erin P.T. Canning:

I was Yes, thank you. Arbitrary was the word I was about to say. I had a hard time even as an editor. I was like, okay, I need to put a number to my editing and I have to commit to that. And so I average three cents a word. And now, if you have a hundred thousand word manuscript, I would like choke at having to say to people that it's three thousand dollars for that. And Maria was like, okay, how much did you spend on your Master's Degree at Johns Hopkins? How much did you spend on your Lit degree at American University? How many years of experience do you have editing other people's books and being an editor prior to becoming, um, a fiction book editor? Like she walked me through all of that. And every time I was like, thank you. She was like, how many additional writing workshops did you go to over the years? How many other writing events did you attend? How many other authors have you interviewed for your podcast? I'll love her forever for forcing me to acknowledge my worth.

Sarah Werner:

Oof, and maybe not even acknowledge your worth, but like, even taking the baby step of realizing that you have worth. I don't know if that's something that you struggled with at all, but like, I mean, going from a person, uh, who, you know, grew up in a very, like, simple home with values of like, oh, you know, serving other people, it was just like a double, like, mindset shift to understand that, like, my work is worth something, you know, Even just taking that tiny step was like mind blowing, but I love what you said about having a mentor walk you through that. I also had that. I had somebody, well, my mastermind group at first, and then I had other mentors along the way. Make sure I always have at least one mentor. I like multiple, but having at least one mentor to walk you through and really push you and say, Hey, I know that, you know, You'd be happy being a starving artist, but no, you wouldn't because you'd be starving. You need to pay this and this and this. How are you going to get that money and have them really challenge you on that?

Erin P.T. Canning:

I also had to look at and face the quality of the work that I do. And be proud of that. And be like, yes, it is 100 percent worth that. And it's like, for other things, I don't think twice about paying a plumber to come in my house and do the work. And so, I just encourage every writer out there to embrace and acknowledge and, up to the fact that your voice and your words and your ideas, they have worth. Regardless of where that, you've got experience coming from somewhere, and it's still worthwhile.

Sarah Werner:

Part of the mindset shift for me too was, um, it was easier for me to charge for my nonfiction work. It was easier for me to ask to be paid for the things that I didn't want to do. And I like, ended up making this correlation between how much did I suffer while I did this and then how, here's how much I get paid. And I ended up with this, like, really, I feel like harmful correlation between if I'm going to make money, I have to hurt and suffer for it. I have to like push myself through this project that I hate. I have to like work long hours and actually physically suffer. And that's what makes the money. And it was, it was really, really hard to disentangle that myself from that as well.

Erin P.T. Canning:

So, another thing I loved was the fact that you were talking about those next steps. Yeah. And that was another thing that was fundamental with my previous mentor. We always had to have a tiny next step, because if you think about the entire process, right? Like, when I, um, really started becoming a full time editor and author, and I was like I need an LLC, and I'm going to need contracts, and I'm going to need legal support. I'm going to need tax people to help me with stuff. All of that is just so overwhelming if you think about it. And so when you just break it down to what is the very next thing that I need to do that is so easy I can't fail. And even if it was just researching LLC options. There's all of those little incremental steps, right? And as long as you've got that next step, you are still moving forward. You talked about something that is crucial to every creative venture that we do. Honestly, any business ever. Uh, being able to find your ideal audience and, and market to them. Do you have any tips and advice that you can share with us as writers to help with that? Authors, et cetera.

Sarah Werner:

There's a lot of leg work that you can do on the days when you are just not feeling the writing or when you have, lol, some extra bonus time, I would highly recommend a. creating your own website as an author, so it could be, you know, Sarah Werner Author. com, like whatever it is, it can be very simple. URLs are usually about 20 bucks. And then you can use a service like WordPress or Squarespace to build out your website. It does not have to be a huge website. It can be one page. And basically it needs to be, this is me. Here's maybe a headshot or a flattering picture of myself. Here's what I write and here's why. And just leave that up. Let it exist. And if you can build in a place for people to sign up for your newsletter, your email list, and even if you're not sending out active emails, start building out your email list. I don't know how much you've talked about marketing on your show before, um, but there's this whole thing. It's the marketing funnel. There's three steps. Number one, they get to know who you are. Number two, they start to like you. And then number three, they start to trust you. So it's called know like trust. And creating these things is setting you up for the like and trust. Meanwhile, while you have your website existing and while you have, uh, some sort of email database, like people use MailChimp, um, Tiny Letter, there's a lot of, uh, I'm on Substack as well. There's a lot of great things out there. Um, you're also going to be working on, one, maybe two social media platforms. I say that because I started off, oh my gosh, I started off, let me tell you this horror story. I started off with, again, experimentally. Um, I was like, well, I'm going to have a Twitter account for the Write Now Podcast. I'm gonna have a Facebook page for the Write Now Podcast. At the time there was like Snapchat and like Vine and some other things for the Write Now Podcast. And I'm going to also have a website for the Write Now Podcast. And at some point I'm going to, I'm going to release some episodes and have content. And it's, it was so overwhelming that I just shut down.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Yes.

Sarah Werner:

So,

Erin P.T. Canning:

Thank

Sarah Werner:

when I, oh my gosh, it was a hard lesson to learn because I thought I could do it. Because I was like, what is it? Ugh, five minutes a day? The people who tell you that it's just five minutes a day, they are not right. They are incorrect. Because there's so much else that goes into crafting a social media post and like understanding like what you're doing, who your audience is, why you're doing it. So I would suggest having one or two, at the most, social media accounts. And if you've already written your book, um, that's fine. But if you are still in the midst of writing your book, you have an opportunity to be a person online and to understand who it is not only that you want to connect with because as a writer, of course, I want to connect with other writers, but those other writers are probably not going to read my stuff because those writers are busy and overwhelmed, and they're reading all of their friends stuff. And so you have to understand like, okay. Here's who the people are who are going to enjoy reading and or purchase my book. And so I'd encourage you to really dig into other traits that your audience might have. So for Girl in Space, it was people who, you know, at the, at the very, very least people who enjoy sci fi. And even breaking that down even further and saying, okay, specifically people who really liked Mass Effect because there's a lot of similarity between this and Mass Effect. There's the found family feeling. There's the, the pacing, the tone, and really understanding then when you work backwards from there, where are these people hanging out? Who are these people and where are they hanging out online? And I've heard different kinds of advice. If you hate social media, then what you can do is choose a social media that you hate the least and be there. And that's a starting point for you. But if you're open to being where your audience is, I would suggest and recommend that you kind of feel around for where your audience is hanging out. And for me, early on, that was Twitter. And what you really need to do is build a community. And it's a ton of work and, but it's really the only way that you can even start marketing without looking like a tool. So if you're active on social media, I'm sure you've seen other writers who are like today only 99 cents, buy my book, buy my book. And I'm like, I don't even know who you are.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Yes. They just scroll through those posts. Yeah.

Sarah Werner:

it's like, I just ignore those. Or even worse is when people like tag me and they're like, I think you'd like my book. And I'm like, I think I'm going to block you. Like,

Erin P.T. Canning:

Oh, I didn't even know that people do that. Okay.

Sarah Werner:

hmm. Oh I get that. I get that a lot. I get that all the time.

Erin P.T. Canning:

ugh.

Sarah Werner:

like, it's like, it like even borders on like gross or insulting. And so there's a right and a wrong way to market. And going into this with what you are posting on social media, um, the tips that I can give you for this is since you already have your existing author website, make sure that a lot of what you do points back to your author website. I say this because. And actually, I used to, I used to give talks on, on social media and personal branding. And one of the things that we talked about was like, do not have your entire online presence rest upon the shoulders of one platform that you don't own. And then witness what has happened with Twitter slash X slash whatever it is. A lot of people that was their whole online life. That was their database.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Yeah.

Sarah Werner:

Else the person who owns that platform, because you don't own it. The person who owns that platform was like, I'm going to change the name and maybe like tank this whole thing. And people scrambled and they're still scrambling. And I lost thousands of followers and, and it's like, where are they? I don't know where else they are. How am I going to find them again? A lot of them had signed up for my email list. So, you know, that's a way to keep in touch with them, but really owning your own email list, that's your private personal database of fans of people who got to know you and then maybe are in the point where they like you and are starting to trust you. Um, And so, yes. And again, you don't have to send out tons of email newsletters. Just collect those names for a rainy day. You'll use it later, uh, when you are selling your book and you've built up know, like, and trust with these people. But going back to social media, um, there's something else that I like to talk about and that's the 80 20 rule. So, I don't know if you're familiar with this or if you've talked about this before, um, and you can apply it to a lot of different things. It's just, it's a good ratio. But in marketing, the 80 20 rule is. You can talk about yourself and your book 20 percent of the time, you can sell 20 percent of the time. You've got to earn it though because the other 80 percent of the time you need to be providing some sort of value, whether it's Entertainment value if you're really funny and you make funny tweets about writing or science fiction or Mass Effect or whatever it is, whether it is Educational if you link to, oh, my gosh, I love this, uh, analysis of Mass Effect, uh, you know, Mass Effect 3, uh, and, and, you know, it's ramifications on society, et cetera. Um, you don't have to write all those articles, but even just delivering them as a service to the people who follow you. And then, um, also I said, community building before, which is, um. really person by person connecting, and this is really where I started. So again, if you're just getting started and you're overwhelmed and you're like, ah, number one, build an author website. Number two, start an email list on MailChimp or something. And number three, pick one social media place where you can become part of or start a community. And this goes back to what I was saying earlier about people barging into my mentions and my DMs like buy my stuff and I was like, I don't know who you are. Um, what you need to do is let people know who you are and like, be earnest and giving and, um, communicate with other people really what you want to do. The number one PR rule that I've learned is just make friends wherever you go and do your best to like, make friends. Um, because those people will become either fans of your work or advocates of your work. They will share your stuff. Um, when I was starting off, uh, with Girl in Space, one of the things I did was look for other, um, sci fi podcasts and share those out. Because then what happened was, A, my followers got, you know, Because I released my episodes, uh, so far between it gave them something to listen to while they're waiting for the next episode of Girl in Space. And also, then those creators shared my show when new episodes came out to their audience and you get this beautiful cross pollination, um, of audiences and that, that was very valuable. So, again, remember, you're not selling your book to other authors. You're working with them to leverage each other's audiences. And so that's part of the 80 20. The 80%, part of that 80 percent is sharing other people's work. And I know, I don't know if you've been following this online, but very recently, uh, there's been some authors who have been sabotaging other authors.

Erin P.T. Canning:

I've heard about that. I can't even fathom

Sarah Werner:

Mm mm. Mm mm. Mm mm. Mm hmm.

Erin P.T. Canning:

just, I love the collaborative experience that I have with writers and where we build each other up and we promote each other and we encourage each other. Like, there's, there's enough readers in the world, you know, my ideal readers don't have to be your ideal readers, and if they are the shared ideal readers, then there's more for them to love.

Sarah Werner:

to read more than one book in a year. Even if you are jealous of other writers or creators, and I'm like, oh, they have more followers than me, or they just posted that they hit a million downloads. And I'm not anywhere near that with us stuff that down

Erin P.T. Canning:

Yeah.

Sarah Werner:

and do what you can do to be generous and kind. And understand that you're not in competition. Even though I know sometimes internally, it can feel like you're competing. And maybe you are. Maybe you feel like, oh, I have to surpass this person in sales or numbers or whatever. You have to just remember that that's not what this is about. People buy more than one book a year. I read 52 books a year. I try to read a book a week. And I need more books, more books, more books all the time. And I need more podcasts to listen to. And yeah, if you are willing to show that you are a generous person who promotes other people's work, and the people whose work you promote notice it and then promote your work in turn, I think you're really doing yourself a favor.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Yes, I agree. One of my last thoughts that I wanted to get in there, about building that community even when you haven't put

Sarah Werner:

Mm. Mm hmm. Mm

Erin P.T. Canning:

People don't connect with sales pages. People don't connect with buy my thing. People connect with people. And so I really got to experience that firsthand when I was going through a burnout with my podcast, my editing, my writing, and I could share that with my community. I used to release these episodes weekly and I shared with my community that I was reaching burnout and they were like, go down to every other week. We've got you. You're doing too much enough as it is. And so I didn't burn out, so I didn't quit. So, you know, it's just, it's okay to share your struggles, even when you're writing your book. Oh, this chapter got away from me, and I can't figure out what to do with it. And that's what people connect with.

Sarah Werner:

Because you're human. You're not perfect. You're not a machine. Nobody wants to connect with perfect. We kind of resent those people a little bit sometimes. I'd rather, uh, yeah, I'd rather just know that we're kind of in all this together and that I'm not alone in my suffering.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Exactly! And on that cheerful note,

Sarah Werner:

I appreciate

Erin P.T. Canning:

um, thank you, right? Thank you for joining us on the podcast and letting us all know that we're not alone in our suffering. All of your contact information is in the show notes. But before we go, I have two questions. One is, uh, what is it that you would like to share with people and how they connect with you because you are amazing.

Sarah Werner:

you. And so are you. I've learned to practice what I preach. And so you can find me out on my personal website, sarahwerner. com. That's S A R A H W E R N E R dot com, where you can look at the things I've created. You can join my mailing list. It's all free. Everything's free out there. I should probably find out a way to make money, but at some point I'll sell something, but like, yeah, take a look at my site. Uh, you can listen to my two podcasts, the Write Now Podcast and Girl in Space. And again, you can access those from Sarah Werner. com.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Fantastic. And then last bit of advice. What is your number one top little advice to throw out

Sarah Werner:

Hmm. Okay, this might sound a little strange. Let go of all of the crap And what I mean

Erin P.T. Canning:

Oh, I love

Sarah Werner:

I mean by that is like, the reason I think a lot of us write and create is to experience some sort of freedom, whether that is freedom to create our own world, freedom to be our true selves, freedom to connect with other people, freedom to, you know, escape your nine to five, whatever it is. We're looking for freedom. And it's really easy to let a lot of shoulds jump in there and say like, well, I should outline this first. I should, you know, whatever. Don't let those get in the way. Remember at the end of the day why it is that you're writing and lean into that.

Erin P.T. Canning:

Oh, I love that so much. The big why that keeps us intrinsically motivated. Thank you. All right, there you have it. Sarah just shared with you how you can get started building not only a successful, but also a sustainable full time career as a writer. As part of your writer business, you also learned how to find and connect with your ideal audience. If you want to connect with Sarah, the links to her website and podcasts are in the show notes. Now, as you spend the next week identifying your options, if you want me to give you feedback on your strategy and order of priorities, then join me and other writers in the Parents Who Write Facebook group. Once you're in, go ahead and share your plans for furthering your writing career, and I'll let you know if you're on the right track or if there are some things that you should tweak. The link to join us in the PWW free Facebook group is in the show notes.

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Erin P.T. Canning

Host