Beyond Growth: How cities can put people and planet first

C40 and the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy are providing an opportunity for cities to rethink conventional economic systems, like capitalism, that have led to the climate crisis. It is abundantly clear that the economic rules and systems created after WWII have led to twin crises: climate change and continued inequality. It’s necessary to unpack these theories to better understand their impacts and relation to climate breakdown and figure out more effective economic strategies that cities can use to restore justice and health to our planet. But what exactly do cities need to understand - and do - to make this happen?

Featured guests:
Sandrine Dixson-Declève is the co-president of The Club of Rome and an international climate change thought leader. When she is not leading The Club of Rome, she also serves as an advisor, lecturer, and facilitator for difficult conversations about the climate crisis. Recently, The Club of Rome published Earth for All – A Survival Guide for Humanity, which revisits theories behind the degrowth and wellbeing movements that The Club of Rome helped to form fifty years ago. Sandrine was recognised most recently by Reuters as one of 25 global female trailblazers leading the fight against climate change.

Councillor Susan Aitken was elected to the Langside of Glasgow, Scotland, in 2012 and became Leader of Glasgow City Council - the Scottish equivalent to mayor - in 2017. Before being elected, Susan worked in a variety of policy and research roles in the Scottish Parliament and the third sector and as a freelance writer and editor specialising in health and social care policy. She is a graduate of both Glasgow and Strathclyde Universities.

Links
“Prosperity Beyond Growth: An Emerging Agenda for European Cities,” by Ben Rogers et al., Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy
“Cities Can Lead the Energy Employment Transition … but They Must Plan for It,” by Jim Stanford
The Limits to Growth
Scientist Johan Rockström Explains Earth's Climate Tipping Points - Global Commons Alliance
Glasgow’s Regional Economic Strategy
Wellb

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website: https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and Cities 1.5 is supported by C40 Cities and the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. You can sign up to the Centre newsletter here. https://thecentre.substack.com/

Cities 1.5 is hosted by David Miller, Managing Director of the C40 Centre and author of the book Solved. It's written and produced by Peggy Whitfield and Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Our executive producer is Chiara Morfeo.

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Cities 1.5 music is by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

[Cities 1.5 main theme music]  

David 00:03

I'm David Miller and you're listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast by University of Toronto Press, produced in association with The Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy and C40 Cities, a global network of nearly 100 of the world's megacities, committed to accelerating climate action. C40's mission is to halve the emissions of its member cities within a decade, while improving equity, building resilience, and creating the conditions for everyone, everywhere to thrive. Join me as I connect with leading mayors, experts, policymakers, and youth leaders who are helping ensure a 1.5-degree world by leading city-based climate action. 

Each week, we delve into the necessary transformative solutions to today's most pressing climate challenges. The fight for an equitable and resilient world is closer than you think. [Cities 1.5 main theme music fades out] 

[driving music] C40 and the Journal of city climate, policy and economy are providing an opportunity for cities to rethink conventional economic systems like capitalism that have led to the climate crisis.

David 01:32 

Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept, even when it is abundantly clear. And it is abundantly clear that the economic rules and systems created after World War II, led by the neoliberal ideas of a small state and unrestrained capitalism, have led to twin crises: climate change, and continued and growing inequality within many developed countries. [music fades out]

[upbeat, energetic music] We need to unpack these theories to better understand their impacts, how they're related to climate breakdown, and figure out more effective economic strategies that cities can utilize to restore justice and health to our planet.

David 02:10 

On Cities 1.5, we have spoken about practical steps cities need to take to shift towards a more equitable, prosperity-first approach. But what does looking beyond growth as our primary metric to measure success even mean? It will take systemic transformation to avert the climate crisis and reduce global inequality. Cities are a critical part of this transformation, so what exactly do cities need to understand and do to make this happen?

These are, by no means, small questions, but luckily, we have two experts who have proven ideas for some big solutions. [upbeat, energetic music] First, we'll hear from Sandrine Dixson-Declève. [light, rhythmic music] Sandrine is the Co-President of the Club of Rome, a platform of academics, scientists, economists, and others, advocating for global systems change to address the climate crisis. Sandrine is an expert on limits to growth and is the perfect person to delve into the systems change needed to solve the climate crisis.

[gentle music] Next, we'll hear my conversation with Councillor Susan Aitken, Leader of the Glasgow City Council. Susan has worked with cross-party leaders of other UK cities to build the case for climate investments to address the challenges of the climate crisis, such as sustainable heat and energy sources, modern transport systems, and the creation of green jobs. She has a wealth of knowledge that can help other cities who are looking for advice on, and examples of, how to move beyond those old-school mindsets. Her government is leading the way in its shift to an economic model which prioritizes the health and wellbeing of Glasgow's residents by creating economic opportunity for all.

So, let's dive in. [light, rhythmic music] Sandrine Dixson-Declève is the Co-President of the Club of Rome and an international climate change thought leader. When she's not leading the Club of Rome, she also serves as an advisor, lecturer, and facilitator for difficult conversations about the climate crisis. Recently, the Club of Rome published Earth For All, which revisits theories behind the degrowth and wellbeing movements that the Club of Rome helped to form 50 years ago. Sandrine was recognized most recently by Reuters as one of 25 global female trailblazers, leading the fight against climate change. I had the pleasure of speaking with Sandrine via remote interview on June 7th, 2023. 

Sandrine, thank you so much for being with us today on Cities 1.5.

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 05:02 

It's such a pleasure to be with you today, David.

David 05:05 

I want to explore your work and some of the ideas that you've been discussing recently, and particularly from a city's perspective. But first, I have to say, I understand that you met the Pope yesterday. Is this true?

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 05:23 

It is indeed true, and we had an amazing discussion. In fact, there were some mayors that also met the Pope at the same time, and we very much talked about the state of the world and the need to think through his publication, Our Common Home, Laudato si', and how we can really be voices of hope.

David 05:37 

Does this mean that, in addition to his very evident understanding of environmental issues, that the Pope is also thinking about our common approach to economics and how we think about organizing our societies?

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 05:54 

As you know, David, I mean, the Pope is also very much about equity and poverty, and the message in particular, also at the Club of Rome, but when you read Laudato si', it's very strong around the element of ensuring that we have more equity in the world, ensuring that we eradicate poverty, and the link with our planetary boundaries and the impact of climate change, mostly on the most vulnerable, but also, these inequalities are creating very grave differences between those people that actually are really feeling the impact of climate change, and those that are creating the impact of climate change.

David 06:35 

I find it to be encouraging that the Pope is actually giving serious thought to these issues – meet you, meets mayors, and we see people like the UN Secretary General starting to think more broadly about the economy and how we organize ourselves as society and how we think about that organization and the impact those thoughts have on equity and our planet. To somebody who's been following this issue for some time, as you have, it must be a moment where it seems like there's starting to be a little bit of a breakthrough in how it's possible to think about our economic organizations, on our systems.

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 07:18 

Interesting, David. I think that many of us feel that there is a breakthrough. It's taken 50 years. As you know, The Limits to Growth, the publication of the Club of Rome and the work of the Club of Rome around the shift from just focusing on productivity and GDP, and really looking at the type of economy that services people, planet, and prosperity at the same time, these publications, beyond The Limits to Growth, all the publications that have come out from our 100 members have very much focused on how we can work, structurally, with the systems that we have, but really shift them to start ensuring that we do decrease social tensions, and that we do enhance the lives and livelihoods of more people than just a few.

And now, what's interesting is to see that, first of all, neoliberal economics is, to a certain degree, really being challenged by many more economists than just those that were members of the Club of Rome. I was at the Beyond Growth Conference, actually, in the European Parliament just a few weeks ago, and it was attended by 2,500 people in person, and at least another 2,000 online, had all of the top economist thinking around the beyond growth discussion. How do we take into consideration green growth at the same time as the missions that Mariana Mazzucato, for example, talks about, or Doughnut Economics of Kate Raworth, or Prosperity Without Growth of Tim Jackson, or The Limits to Growth of the Club of Rome, and the work that I'm working on? And how do we look at translating that into real indicators, working with the wellbeing economy governments and Bhutan, for example, that's very much looking at happiness index, and translate that into a broader movement of countries coming together? On the one hand, you see this incredible development and the enthusiasm, David, in that room in the hemicycle of the European Parliament was phenomenal. I mean, even, I followed just after the President of the European Commission, who actually mentioned the work of the Club of Rome and The Limits to Growth, who mentioned the need to address new economies for the 21st century and being able to then follow in her footsteps and realize that this is the opportunity to translate what we've been saying into real policy.

But on the other hand, the stakes are high, and clearly the incumbents in an extractive economy—the politicians that tend to continue to follow neoliberal thinking and acting, short-term profit-making, shareholder value, and who don't want to get out of the current economic paradigm—are holding on tight to what they know and what they feel is more important.

David 10:10 

Let's talk about that paradigm for a minute. I studied economics in university, which was a few years ago, [chuckling lightly] closer to the publication of The Limits to Growth and of our conversation. [Sandrine chuckles] And, at that time—this is late 1970s—the debate was about whether Keynesians or monetarists were correct. So, at the time, the neoliberal movement was starting to take ascendancy, but everybody assumed that the basic idea was that we need to grow the gross domestic product or the gross national product. That was the basic taken-for-granted, and people hadn't really on-boarded, I don't think, the very clear and proven-to-be-correct ideas of The Limits to Growth. So, those ideas have been embedded in our structures since the 1950s and The Limits to Growth, in a way, was very radical because it's saying, "We can't grow".

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 11:07 

[gentle music] Or we need to grow differently. You're absolutely right, David. I mean, it is embedded in the structures – at all levels of the structures. Whether we look at the over-financialization of our economy and the fact that productivity is directly linked now to transactional finance and shareholder value rather than the real economy, I mean, the fact that, for example, you don't take into consideration, in shareholder value, 10,000 layoffs as a negative. It becomes a positive. I mean, your shares go up when you actually lay off people. So, we're not taking into consideration the lives and livelihoods of most people on this planet, and we're not taking into consideration—even more importantly, and it's interesting, and to a certain degree, very sad—that these old computer models and the system dynamic modelling that was undertaken by the MIT team of Dennis Meadows and Donella Meadows, which predicted, or at least indicated through different scenarios, that the tipping points would be around this time in the 2020s. 

Here we are, now facing those tipping points, not only of an extractive economy and having grown far beyond our planetary boundaries because we've surpassed six out of nine, but also that we're seeing—and we've seen this in our new publication, Earth for All: A Survival Guide for Humanity—that through the system dynamic modelling we've done, and the new wellbeing index that we have actually created, that as wealth has gone up in the hands of a few, wellbeing has dramatically decreased across the globe, and in particular, in the wealthiest economies, what we still call GDP economies that are growing so well and are supposedly wealthy. And that is really disturbing because what we do say, which has been now proven the case, is that as you're in a crisis, you're going to have multiple impacts on people, you're going to have growing social tension because there is a differentiation now between the haves and have-nots, who are also being impacted by, for example, energy poverty here in Europe for the moment, access to affordable food, because we have a huge inflationary impact. The fact that, coming out of COVID, many people lost their jobs or decided to resign because they don't really feel comfortable in their jobs anymore... how do you support those people? Not in the current economy that we have, that is purely looking at productivity.

That's why you need to shift from that paradigm into a 21st century paradigm of making sure that you take into consideration other indicators which demonstrate that people have access to health care, that people have access to welfare, that people have access to food that is affordable and nutritious, and that they actually are part of a 21st century model that takes also into consideration the planetary boundaries. And that can be exciting, by the way. This is not about sacrifice. This is about optimization and really tapping into the needs and the desires of most people. And I'll finish maybe with one statistic which blew us all away. In terms of the team of Earth For All and the authors, we did a survey of G20 citizens, and 74% of G20 citizens have indicated that they want to move towards a wellbeing economy, that they don't actually feel that the current economy reflects their needs.

David 14:29 

That's a huge number.

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 14:29 

Yeah, yeah – three quarters of the population.

David 14:32 

If you're running for mayor, you'd like to start with 74%, for sure. I think the broad outlines of that are very clear – that measuring growth, alone, doesn't measure the things that matter to people, that matter for society, and certainly doesn't include the planet because, as we know, the economic models explicitly exclude the impact on the planet. Can you speak a bit then, about how we conceive of that kind of wellbeing economy? What does it mean for governments? What might it mean for cities and mayors? You know, what do they measure? What do they look at? What do they talk about in order to meet people's needs in a way that is within planetary boundaries?

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 15:20 

Many of us—scientists, economists—have been working together now for many years to look at different indicators, and to be frank, actually, one of my members is currently doing research on this and we've seen that some countries are already going far beyond just GDP. So, they're looking at, we have about 350 different types of indicators and, what we've, from the Beyond Growth Conference and what we're seeing is we're coming together now, and it's becoming very clear that we really have to hone in on what are then the most important indicators, so that we can integrate that into national accounts, or integrated it into city budgets, for example.

And how do you place a measure, in particular, on those parts of the economy that are most important to people's lives and livelihoods? So, I'll give you some examples. If you look at the wellbeing economy, governments of Iceland, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales, and Finland, they have actually structured their indicators along three key lines. So, what are the economic indicators? Productivity is one of them. But, what then are also the social indicators, and then what are the environmental indicators? And, when you look at the social indicators, you have to understand, "What is the value?" and this is where there are a lot of economists and scientists and multidisciplinary academics who are working on defining, "How do you actually place a value on education?" for example. "How do you place a value on nature?" "How do you place a value on employment and the loss of employment?" and, there, you can find the costs very clearly, in the same way that we've been able to look at the cost benefits of pollution coming from coal mining, or pollution coming from other types of chemicals, etc.

So, we do have a lot of that data, and it's a question now of starting to understand the costs of not doing the right thing and then putting in place those costs and starting to place a value on doing the right thing so that it is integrated into the economy. If you only measure productivity, you are not measuring the externalities from that productivity, and therefore the impact that we're seeing in terms of the environment or greenhouse gas emissions, or even the social impact that you're having because of shareholder value going up, and you're getting rid of 10,000 people, instead of thinking about the lives of those people and their employment, or by the way, the mental illness of the impacts of them actually losing their jobs, depression... I mean, this can go actually quite, quite far in terms of really evaluating impacts on people's lives and livelihoods.

David 17:58 

[pensive music] I'm in Toronto today, as we're speaking, and there's a lot of the Great Lakes region that's called the Rust Belt, because industries moved and abandoned people and abandoned whole communities, and you see the kinds of consequences you're speaking to. At the same time, I think people understand, intuitively, that when you talk about economics and business and jobs and you don't include the planet, you know, for example, if there's a flood, it might make GDP go up because the cost of fixing the places that flooded is added into those accounts. And for people, that's absurd, so I think people can understand. They have an instinct. It's important to give them some tools. And the same thing with mayors. Mayors need to be able to talk about prosperity and wellbeing, and I thought, you know, one of the tools they could have is Earth For All, and maybe you could just speak a little bit about the book because, really, it's a book end, in a way, to Club of Rome's work, you know, from Limits to Growth from 50 years ago.

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 19:04 

The amount of time and energy that went into the book, the system dynamic modelling, and then the stress testing through economists... a model will not necessarily solve everything, and we needed to bring in people that were on the ground that understood how some of this would be translated into reality. So, that's the first thing.

The second is that what came out of that system dynamic model, and then the process, is that there were really five key turnarounds that would get us to what we call "the giant leap" scenario. By the way, there are two scenarios. The first scenario is kind of the "too little, too late", business-as-usual scenario, which is today's scenario where we continue to burn fossil fuel and yes, we invest in renewables, but we're not investing enough. [music fades out] It remains quite a small investment, or just compensates for the growth of energy consumption.

We take into consideration in "the giant leap" scenario, the fact that we really have to change poverty, and ending poverty is one of the key aspects of how we really will turn things around. Even Johan Rockström, who is actually, you know, climatologist, the climate rock star who I've been working with now for the last three and a half years, also on planetary emergency thinking, he will say that what really came out of the work that we did together is that the social tipping points become so much more evident. So, this is to your point about, "How do we bring more people on the journey?" That means we need to address gross inequality.

I grew up in California. I love California. If anybody goes to San Francisco these days, they can see how destroyed San Francisco is. It's got the highest homelessness problem we've ever seen. Household prices are far too high. We've got heroin addiction. It's really losing its way in terms of a city that can offer more people a thriving life, and that is really a problem. So, gross inequality is fundamental to look at.

Then, we need to achieve full gender equity. And why is that so important? Because, if we want to put a curb on population growth in certain countries, we have to think through how women and girls can have education and can be part of the decision-making process. And then, the underbelly of both of those are something that's so important and yet tends to often be the only focus, and that's the food system and the energy system, and both of those need to be addressed, but within the context of the first three.

What's interesting there is that we've put together a series of very clear policy recommendations, whether they be for mayors, or whether they be for national policymakers, and we're very clear about the way in which these different recommendations need to be put into place, alongside a very strong focus on addressing, for example, universal basic dividends or universal basic income, understanding that the future of work is going to have huge impacts on our cities, and also on the rest of the world, that we need to think about people's role in society, and we may—thinking also, by the way, of AI and the penetration of AI—have to think of how people can be active within society in a very different way than we've seen before.

So, all of these different aspects, including then the role of the state and the role of the local legislature, what do you do in terms of taxation? How do you ensure that you get rid of perverse taxation that we currently have, which, by the way, we fundamentally believe is part of the problem? In addition to needing new capital, we have to take into consideration that we're subsidizing the wrong things like fossil energy, like industrial agriculture, and we're not supporting the shift towards renewables or energy efficiency or towards regenerative agriculture, for example.

So, all those different examples are given; they're very specific. And what I love about this book and the work that we've done is it has created such a level of hope and excitement, that we're now having discussions with countries like Ukraine, in terms of using our thinking to rebuild, but also Vanuatu, an island state, in terms of how we can preserve them from going under. In the same way that we're talking to academic institutions as to how they can change their curriculum, or even the cultural festivals, and I was just-- we talked about the Pope, but I was also in front of the Colosseum that same evening as part of a festival dedicated to Earth For All, and the messaging of Earth For All in Rome, with mayors, to talk about how we can integrate this in local jurisdictions. So, it's creating an enthusiasm of what is possible, and I think that's really important, with a reality check of, "Where are things going that are wrong?" and, "How can we change them together, working at different dimensions?"

David 24:06 

You speak with great clarity and enthusiasm, and you mentioned hope. Are you hopeful?

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 24:15 

Oh, that's always a hard question. [sighs] You know, I have two wonderful daughters, and I have to be hopeful. I have to be hopeful for them, and I have to be hopeful for future generations. I'm hopeful because I do believe that all people are innately good and that we can step up to the plate when we have to, so I fundamentally believe that we can pull through trauma, and we can actually enable transformation. My worry is that the incumbents in the system, those that have something to lose, are holding on with dear life for the 20th century model that is totally broken and doesn't foster an Earth for all or wellbeing for all. So, I guess I go... I fluctuate, right? I fluctuate a little bit between hope and then, every once in a while, I fall into despair. [driving music] But, as Dana Meadows also said, who was one of the founders of The Limits to Growth and the key author, and she said, "There's too much good news to fall into despair, but there's too much bad news to be complacent," and I really believe that we need to ensure that we create this message of hope, but that we are realistic that we're going to have to step up to the plate, and we will have to change the way in which we do business as usual.

David 25:45 

That's a perfect spot to end our conversation – hopeful, but clear we have to do the work. Thank you so much, not just for being with us today, but for your ongoing work to help us shape a world in which no one is left behind.

Sandrine Dixson-Declève 26:01 

Thank you so much, David. And just a little shout out to all those incredible mayors who really have stepped up to the plate and continue to do so. I fundamentally believe that communities and cities are part of the answer and have really shown incredible leadership in so many ways. Thank you. [music continues then fades out]

David 26:27 

[gentle music] Susan Aitken was elected as Councillor for the Langside of Glasgow, Scotland in 2012, and became Leader of Glasgow City Council—the Scottish equivalent to Mayor—in 2017. Before being elected, Susan worked in a variety of policy and research roles in the Scottish Parliament and in the third sector, and as a freelance writer and editor, specializing in health and social care policy. Susan joined me for a remote interview on August 15th, 2023.

Councillor, welcome to Cities 1.5.

Susan Aitken 27:03 

Thank you. It's a pleasure, David.

David 27:06 

Our listeners are global, so perhaps for those who don't understand the nuances of city government in Glasgow, you could just briefly explain how the government works, and the role of the Leader of Council.

Susan Aitken 27:20 

Sure, so I'm the equivalent of a mayor, but we don't have mayors in Scotland. Scottish local government works more on a parliamentary system, so in Glasgow, we have 86 councillors. We all stand and are elected to represent our local constituents. And then, as in the way that the Prime Minister is chosen in the House of Commons, the biggest party usually is the party that forms the administration, and their leader becomes the Leader of the Council and the Leader of the City. I think it's fair to say that, because Glasgow is Scotland's biggest city by some distance, the Leader of the Council has always had a City Leader role, as well, so there's a lot of crossover with being like a mayor, but it's different powers and a different kind of democratic setup. It's a much more complex democratic procedure, dealing with a range of different political parties and different councillors and committees, and so our decision-making process is more complex. It's still all about city leadership.

David 28:25 

I wanted to talk to you today about climate change in the economy and jobs in the future. And, of course, you were host and Glasgow was host of COP26 in 2021. It was really clear from the events there and from Glasgow's leadership, that there's a very strong role, internationally—for cities, I would argue that cities are really leading the climate change movement—and certainly the City of Glasgow, the UK100, C40, and others really came to Glasgow armed with actions. Can you speak a little bit about what Glasgow is doing in its climate plan? And then, I want to ask you about how that relates to jobs and the economy and how we need to think about city leadership on these important economic issues.

Susan Aitken 29:12 

So, I think we probably have two main approaches to the way that we're dealing with climate, and I should say that we have both within our city economic strategy and also the wider metropolitan region economic strategy, which is a bigger group of local authorities—about 1.8 million people—we have the climate emergency identified as one of our three grand challenges that we're embedding in all of the work that we do around the city economy. But we also have our city climate action plan and a number of different strategies that tie into that. And again, our view is very much that this is not something that sits separately from the day-to-day work of the council, but something that we're trying to embed right through everything that we do.

So, there are a number of things that we are undertaking as the City, either as the Council or alongside partners in delivering action right now. So, one of the things I would pick up on is active travel, for example. We're making a lot of investment in making it much easier for people to cycle and to walk in the city and reducing the amount of space that's given over to private cars. We're also working to continue to expand and improve our public transport offering, so that real modal shift in transport is something that we're working very hard on as a city. We're working on a number of heat transition projects, in moving people and neighbourhoods away from reliance on gas, particularly North Sea gas. Probably most homes in Scotland are heated by gas boilers, at least to a certain extent.

But alongside all of that kind of day-to-day delivery, across a whole number of areas—those are just a couple that I've picked on—we're also working on the really big stuff that we know that we can't deliver alone, as a city, partly because we don't have the capacity, but even more so, because we don't have the finance available to us. So things like: a much bigger-scale transition of heat and energy, moving people away from non-renewable sources on to renewable sources of energy right across the entire city, retrofitting buildings—housing stock in particular—so that it is energy efficient, and I see that as absolutely two sides of the same coin; major interventions to our public realm to either minimize the impact of, or even remove, motorways – highways that were built through the city, historically; a major investment in a whole, entirely new public transit system, which would cover the entire metropolitan region—Scotland has never really invested in a major public transit system like that. That would be a new thing—but these are huge interventions. They are beyond the reach of what we're able to do, financially, as a city.

We need to work with partners, we need to work with the private sector, and probably particularly institutional investors to get that investment into the city, to drive green investment into the city and into the transformation. To pick on just one project, we've done a lot of feasibility work on the retrofitting of homes, we've identified initially around 430,000 homes across the city region of varying levels of need when it comes to energy efficiency and heat containment, and the cost of that, we estimate will be £11 billion. We don't have £11 billion as a city authority. The Scottish Government doesn't have £11 billion. The UK Government isn't even talking about putting £11 billion into the whole of the UK, never mind one city. We need to work with investors, but we also need to understand, as a city, how to do that, because we've never had an investment of that scale into the city before.

[gentle music] Other than perhaps some of the world's megacities, we tend to work in investments of the hundreds of millions, not the tens of billions, so we're doing a lot of work on climate finance, on how we, as a city, create investable propositions for these big interventions that we can take out to investors and get them to drive that green investment into the work that we want to do, alongside the day-to-day work that we're constantly delivering on the ground on a whole number of areas where we're bringing the emissions down, perhaps more incrementally, but we know we need to do these big interventions to really deliver the transformation that we want at pace, to reach our net zero target of 2030. [music fades out]

David 33:54 

One of the things that makes Glasgow somewhat unique is, if you read your economic development strategy, the regional one, and also, you know, reports to your council about these issues, you see an approach that connects climate and the kind of initiatives you're speaking to, and jobs. Can you talk about why Glasgow sees those as interconnected, and maybe a little bit about, you know, how the people of Glasgow see that interconnection, as well?

Susan Aitken 34:25 

So, I talked about our three grand challenges. One of the other ones is a genuinely inclusive economy. You know, for your international listeners who might not know Glasgow so well, we are a post-industrial city, probably Europe's preeminent post-industrial city in terms of bearing the legacy and the scars of deindustrialization, both physically on the city, but also still in the economic and social circumstances that many of our citizens live in. So, we have very glaring health inequalities in the city – still some real disparities in the quality of life, of life expectancy, that people have in the city. There's still far too many people living in poverty, but crucially, that is very often intergenerational poverty. It is poverty and worklessness that is still that legacy of the deindustrialization that kind of peaked in the 1980s, but probably had started in the immediate post-war era. 

So, there is something about the opportunity that the green transition gives us—the net zero transition gives us—to make up for what I call an "unjust transition", through deindustrialization to deliver a genuinely just transition this time and make sure that all of this huge investment that we're making, and will be making over the next decade, actually also delivers multiple benefits and multiple layers of benefits, and also delivers economic and social transformation, and starts to drive down those inequalities which we have struggled to drive down through conventional economic growth. In fact, it just hasn't worked. Conventional economic growth, Glasgow had really good economic growth, comparatively. In the period post the 2008 crash, we did well comparatively to other UK cities, for example, but the most kind of wicked statistics around poverty and inequality which are particularly to do with ill health, with long-term disability, and exclusion from workplaces as a result of that, and also low qualifications, they didn't move one bit. All of that growth, all of that prosperity that was being created in the city did not improve the life circumstances and the life chances of our poorest citizens.

This time, it needs to be different, so we're asking citizens to kind of put up with a lot of change in a short space of time. These are going to be some fundamental transformations in the way that the city functions and the way that people experience the city. So, if we're going to ask them to live through that and to come with us on that journey, and to have some lifestyle and behaviour change of their own, then we have to be able to demonstrate that it's going to be worth it and that we will deliver change for the city that is not just for the planet, but also for the people of this city, and actually redressing some of that injustice that we suffered 30 and 40 years ago, which has never been redressed since.

David 37:35 

[upbeat, gentle music] Having read the Regional Economic Development Strategy and an Inclusive Growth report from the Executive Director of Regeneration in the Economy—I love that title, by the way—I'm struck by the fact that Glasgow prioritizes inclusivity over "growth", you know, for the reasons you say and others, but this is a very bold position to take.

Susan Aitken 38:00 

For me, it's an essential position, I have to say. It is kind of a no-brainer. I'm not going to lie. When I first started doing this job, six years ago now—I'm not an economist. That's not my background—but I was shown some evidence quite early on about how growth didn't benefit the people who needed it most, and so it was just really obvious to me, we needed to do growth differently. I'm not opposed to growth. We are not at the stage where we've reached the limits of our growth. [music fades out] We still need to be creating jobs. We still need to be growing particular sectors of our economy, but I think we need to be pretty ruthlessly clear, actually, that we only want growth that we can see clear benefits coming for our population, that we can see clear pathways to creating, not just any jobs, but jobs that are well paid, that are sustainable, that have fair work—principles of fair work—at their heart, jobs that will genuinely start to break those cycles of generational poverty in Glasgow. That's what we're focused on, so it's not a rejection of growth, but it is a prioritization of particular types of growth, or growth in particular areas of the economy, if you like, that align with our objectives for improving the life circumstances of our citizens.

David 39:28 

Are there any projects or policies you can point to yet that show what that looks like when it works?

Susan Aitken 39:35 

So, we created an inclusive growth diagnostic about four or five years ago now, which we apply to all of our economic development activity, and it looked at various interventions and said, "What are the things that we should prioritize as a city that will make the biggest difference most quickly for those who are at the bottom of the heap, economically, right now?" and that gave us some very clear principles to apply, but also some very clear areas for us to invest in as a city. 

So, number one was a living wage, was getting people into work that was decently paid to begin with but also had opportunities for career progression, workplace representation through trade unions, for example, so it's that fair work that was number one, the best thing that we can do, but also investment in affordable transport so that people can access economic opportunities, affordable public transport.

Investment in affordable childcare ranked very highly as well, so one of the things we've done is hugely expanded the free childcare that's available in the city. All three- and four-year-olds, it works out at around 34 hours a week per year, of free childcare. It is like a full-time job for a kid, and we're expanding that as much as possible to two-year-olds just now, so there's a number of things there where we've made choices around a resource, investment and spend, that are based on that evidence of where we can make the difference.

We also put a lot into skills development because that's one of our biggest areas of inequality. Making that direct connection with the climate, we've got a piece of work ongoing just now that we've commissioned from some academics at the University of Glasgow, due to report very, very soon, particularly around that retrofit of buildings and homes piece. The work that we've done on that already has identified that the economic and social benefits that we could gain from that £11 billion investment over the next couple of decades, probably—particularly if we do it as a major public works project, which I think is the only way to do it. I don't think a consumer-led approach is going to work—that investment, massive though it is, the return that we'll get from that in jobs, in skills, in reducing fuel poverty, hopefully eradicating fuel and energy poverty, and therefore, improving people's health and quality of life and household incomes, the multiple benefits that we get from that investment, as well as a big chunk of emissions reduction towards that 2030 target, all of the other things that come along with that demonstrate the real value of climate investment for people, for communities, for jobs, for skills, and long-term, high-quality jobs and skills.

We're awaiting, very soon, the publication of-- we're calling it our Just Transition Skills Report, and it will look at other areas of spend, but that retrofit of buildings is the core of the analysis it's going to do, and it's going to give us practical recommendations for how we make sure that, as we make that investment, we are also getting it right for citizens, for young people who are coming out of our schools and colleges, but also for older people who, right now, are in jobs that are going to become obsolete as we move towards net zero.

In Scotland that's often talked about in the context of the oil and gas sector, for obvious reasons. You know, our northeast of Scotland has long been a big oil and gas centre, but it's also mechanics for petrol and diesel cars, it's people who fix gas boilers. You know, there's a whole number of folk who are doing ordinary jobs—often trades—which have been well-paid and sought-after trades in the past, but they're going to become obsolete, and pretty quickly. And those are the jobs that we need to make sure folk aren't going to be left behind, that someone in their 40s, maybe, who still has a long and productive working life ahead of them, isn't going to be left in the scrap heap by the net zero transition, the way that entire generations were left on the scrap heap by the post-industrial transition. So, we're awaiting those very practical recommendations for how we deliver those conjoined agendas of net zero transition and inclusive economic transition, at the same time.

David 44:06 

When you prioritize the wellbeing of people, you can lead to strong climate action and vice versa.

Susan Aitken 44:13 

[driving music] I very strongly believe that, and I think climate action is often talked about in the context of loss – of people having to give things up, and particularly in the West and the wealthy West, and in the Global South, people are suffering loss because of climate change right now. We know that. But in that wealthy West, and particularly in a fairly moderate climate like Scotland, we haven't yet been hit with really severe impacts of climate change, although it is starting. We've had wildfires in the Highlands this summer. People will start to feel it in the next few years, even if they haven't yet.

So, it's often talked about having to give things up. "You'll have to give up your petrol car, you'll have to give up your gas fire," all these things. I feel very uncomfortable talking about it that way because I represent so many citizens who don't have anything to lose. [music fades out] You know, there are people who it's just grossly unfair to ask them to give things up, and so we have to model and conceptualize climate action as a gain and as a benefit – a shared social and community benefit for the entire city, but also a benefit for individual households who, right now, don't have enough. And so, we can say to them, "We can make it more affordable for you to heat your home, for you to live comfortably and safely. We can make it more affordable for you to travel around the city on accessible and affordable public transport, or to cycle safely and walk safely around your neighbourhood, to walk to work safely in a way that you maybe don't feel able to do just now".

I just think it works for everyone, but it's particularly important for the poorest citizens, that we articulate those benefits of climate action for them, and we're not nagging and saying, "You have to do better, and you have to change your lifestyle". Even though a lot of people will have to do that, we have to be able to demonstrate that the gains are worth it.

David 46:10 

Well, as you said at the beginning of the interview, Glasgow went through an unjust transition. The steps you are taking to ensure that Glasgow Council, with its friends and neighbouring cities and towns, build not only a just transition, but an economy that starts with the principle of inclusivity is powerful, and I think the actions of Glasgow and its successes are going to be watched by cities from around the world... in this case, listened to by cities around the world because we're podcast, but, Councillor, it's been terrific to hear your vision for how Glasgow accomplishes this transition, starting with ensuring that the benefits flow to those who need them the most, which, to me, is the art of government and the goal of government. [driving music] Thank you for your time and vision and for the work of you and your council, which is hugely influential.

Susan Aitken 47:04 

Thank you, David. It's always a pleasure, and I always relish an opportunity to talk about what we're doing in Glasgow and to find allies across the world. I know that we've got a lot to learn from other cities around the world as well, who are just as committed to climate justice and social justice as we are.

David 47:22 

Thanks again, Councillor.

Susan Aitken 47:22 

Thanks very much. [music continues then fades out]

David 47:28 

[upbeat, energetic music] The old measuring stick of growth – forward, onwards, and upwards – is not a realistic one. We need to look beyond growth to transform and respond to the challenges of climate breakdown. Cities need to help rethink and shift the economy of our broader society, as well as the larger ways of how we organize ourselves. It's time to stop and consider the impact that our economic policy decisions have on our planet. We need to rebalance our sense of equity for all, including for the environment, as its own involuntary participant who needs all of us to look out for it. We must look beyond growth. There's simply no other option.

[Cities 1.5 main theme music] On the next episode of Cities 1.5, I bring in some extra help to get to the bottom of a complex and vital topic – divesting from fossil fuels. I speak with Special Advisor for Climate and Sustainability at Columbia University, Dan Zarrilli, and guest host, Rachel Huxley, sits down with experts, Savannah Cox and Zac Taylor, to discuss the barriers and practical advice for cities, because we know that it's an ecological imperative to divert investments away from non-renewable resources. But there's a lot more that cities need to understand about the risks attached to investment in fossil fuels, and the economic opportunities that divestment holds.

[theme music continues] Thanks for listening to Cities 1.5. I'm David Miller, the Managing Director of the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. I was the Mayor of Toronto, Canada, and know, first-hand, the impact cities can have in solving the climate crisis.

Cities 1.5 is produced by Jessica Schmidt. Our executive producers are Isabel Sitcov, Peggy Whitfield, Jessica Abraham, and Claudia Rupnik. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder. Cities 1.5 is a production of the University of Toronto Press and the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy.

To find out more, visit the show’s website link in the episode notes. See you next time. [Cities 1.5 main theme music continues then ends]