Economic Power, Urban Change: Women who are leading the way forward

In times of uncertainty, leadership is key...but so is vision. As the climate crisis deepens, and people across the world are facing economic hardship and experiencing the increasing impacts of the climate crisis, mapping out an alternative to neoliberal economics, inequality and unmitigated climate breakdown has never been more vital. In our season opener, we speak to two women who are doing just that. Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr of Freetown is using an innovative, inclusive and data-driven approach to addressing the challenges her city faces, and is a powerful advocate for unlocking urban climate finance. Gaya Herrington is one of the world’s leading voices in the wellbeing economics space, using her platform to argue for the transformation of our economic system away from unsustainable growth to one that prioritizes human and planetary wellbeing. 

Featured guests:

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr has served as the Mayor of Freetown, Sierra Leone, since 2018. She is also the Co-Chair of C40 Cities. 

Gaya Herrington is sustainability researcher, wellbeing economist, thought leader and author of “Five Insights for Avoiding Global Collapse”.

Links:

What happened at the U20 Summit in Rio? C40 website

IDB and C40 to Strengthen Partnership for Climate Action - IDB website

Planting 1 million trees to turn the temperature down - Cities 1.5 podcast episode, featuring Eugenia Kargbo, Freetown Chief Heat Officer

Regenerative Economics - The Regenerative Centre

Will the end of economic growth come by design — or disaster? Gaya Herrington, TedTalk

The Limits to Growth model: still prescient 50 years later Gaya Herrington, Club of Rome website

Turnaround Empowerment & Focus on gender equality Club of Rome website

Who Cooked Adam Smith’s Dinner? A review Women’s Budget Group website

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website: https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and Cities 1.5 is supported by C40 Cities and the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. You can sign up to the Centre newsletter here. https://thecentre.substack.com/

Our executive producers are Calli Elipoulos and Peggy Whitfield.

Produced by Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Music is by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

[Cities 1.5 main theme music]

David 00:01

I am David Miller and you’re listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast exploring how cities are leading global change through local climate action. [Cities 1.5 main theme music fades out] 

[Whimsical music] For many of us, our present has never seemed so turbulent, and our future so uncertain. Powerful men and their accomplices are defying democratic norms, ripping up climate agreements, and severing alliances, all while enacting legislation to ensure the billionaire class increases their wealth at the expense of all of us. They weaponize economic downturn and financial insecurity to support their cause, ignoring that these are actually symptoms of the failures of the rampant neoliberalism that they support. They offer the easy answers of far-right populism such as targeting vulnerable communities, embracing international isolation and championing unsustainable consumption. But these are not solutions that will resolve the complex crises of this moment. [Whimsical music fades and ends]

[fast rhythmic music] So, where do we go from here? Globally, cities, mayors, economists, academics, scientists, and civil society are forming the resistance. This coalition is informed by the experiences of many Global South leaders who have resisted and lived through multiple crises before, and we have much to learn from them. We must remember that there are other alternatives. We can step up and embrace economic systems which prioritize the health of people and planet, support innovative solutions to the climate crisis, and build coalitions with willing, but sometimes unlikely, partners, to fight back and save our world. As cities increasingly gain seats at the global table, they’re poised to fight against the rollback of climate action and a future dictated by the whims of a handful of autocrats and billionaires. [music fades then ends]

[Whimsical music] Women are on the forefront of this charge as they already have a lifetime of experience in the art of resistance in what is, often, still very much a man’s world. They’re also more heavily impacted by both the climate crisis and global economic systems built by men, systems which no longer serve us. At a time when many men are using their power and influence to accelerate societal and climate breakdown, it is crucial to listen and learn from women who are standing up to resist this version of the future. [music fades and ends]

[fast rhythmic music] Our guests today are two women who offer alternatives to the destructive path we now find ourselves on, and who have carved out economic and societal solutions which center the needs of people and planet over enriching the few. Gaya Herrington is an author, wellbeing economist, thought leader and corporate sustainability expert who believes the time for a global economic systems change is now. Her vision for how we can all make steps towards a healthier future by focusing on holistic action and local-level support is both practical and hopeful. But before we hear from Gaya, let’s first set the stage with C40’s co-chair from Freetown, Sierra Leone, Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr. Now in her second term leading the city, she has overcome many obstacles in her bid to create a greener, healthier future for urban residents globally. Mayor Aki-Sawyerr is also a powerhouse economic expert in her own right with over 25 years of private sector financial experience. Her leadership is an excellent example of why women should be at the forefront of creating new economic and environmental futures. [music ends]

I’m here in Rio de Janeiro from the U20 with an extremely special guest, Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr of Freetown, Sierra Leone, the co-chair of C40 and one of the co-hosts of the U20. Mayor, thanks so much for making the time to talk to us today.

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  04:49

Thanks for having me, David. It’s a real pleasure to be here.

David 04:53

We’ve just seen a spectacular few days with mayors from around the world coming together around issues of social justice, inclusion, action on climate. An agenda that they’re already implementing, but an agenda that we need partners in national governments as well. How’s it been to be the co-convener of this meeting of mayors from virtually every country, from cities large and small?

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  05:22

I think this has been a really special moment. Like you say, we have had representations around the globe and that speaks to a major part of our ask, that national governments recognize that the fights that you’ve just described, social justice, the climate crisis, hunger, unemployment, inclusion, all of these fights which national governments make policy for need to be implemented at city level. And there’s been a disconnect for far too long between the policymakers and the implementers; the national governments and the local governments. And having President Lula and the Chilean president in the room this morning literally repeating to us what we were saying to them was a really special moment. It’s that moment when you feel like, “There’s a pivot here. We’ve moved. This is a milestone achievement. Something is really beginning to shift.” And that comes off the back of a signing yesterday with IDB—with the Inter-American Development Bank, where they were also saying the same thing. Saying, “We get it. You know, we want to see action. We want the finance to be where it was going to make the biggest difference, and we are going to make finance directly accessible to cities.” These two things have made this U20 a really, really exceptional one. But we are confident that it’s not going to be a one-off, that this is a trend. That we’re now moving in the direction that we’ve been talking about for such a long time. Closing that gap between the policy makers and the implementers. Closing the gap between the nation states and the cities.

David 07:16

[soft rhythmic music] I’d like to go to and discuss the IDB announcement a bit more with you. Because you’ve been a leader on the issue of trying to finance climate action, particularly in the cities and countries that are bearing the brunt of climate change. And this appears to be a door opening led by the Inter-American Development Bank. And can you speak a bit—Maybe going back to your journey as mayor, because cities have had trouble accessing international climate funds, and sometimes the banks say, “Well, cities aren’t ready.” And I know you did a lot of work when you first came in as mayor to ensure that your city actually had the proper systems in place to be able to work with anyone. Can you speak about that and your tax reforms, for example?

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  08:06

One of the obstacles that you hear when it comes to accessing finance for cities is, “They don’t have the capacity. They don’t have bankable projects. They’re not in a position to create a pipeline of projects of the size and quality that can attract funding.” And when I came into office there were a couple of things that were important. One was ensuring that we had technical teams, or a technical team, that had the ability to work on, you know, sort of major infrastructural projects and other projects and to be able to do the heavy lifting that’s required to be able to release funding. And so for that I created Mayor’s Delivery Unit, and that was—you know, sort of that’s a team that’s fairly fluid of volunteers. [music ends

Many of the time or a lot of the time people from management consultants to urban planners and others who catch the vision of transforming Freetown and decide to give some time to us. Over the years, we’ve built up a more core team who are financed through projects outside of the council. So there’s that structural intervention which addresses the capacity problem at a total charge rate, because building capacity takes time. So if you really need to move fast, you’d have to buy in capacity or bring in capacity in the way that I’ve done, whilst at the same time this is very important, gradually building up the capacity of the existing personnel. But some of the narrative around capacity building, it’s almost as though, “Oh yes, you must do capacity building.” “Well, do you know how long it takes to have somebody who’s been working for 30 years change the way they work? No, no, no. If you actually want to deliver, there’s got to be a marrying of the two. You’ve got to bring some in whilst building some up.”

And also, you know, that also means hiring more young people, which isn’t always a feature of city councils. You mention the property tax reforms, and that was, really, a digitization of our property rates system. But this also is an example of how cities can be very forward looking but are ultimately still constrained very often by national government policies. So we were able, through the digitization of our property rates system, increase revenue potential sevenfold, but in the same period the currency crashed against the dollar due to monetary policy issues. So over a period of time when we saw revenue grow, the dollar value of that was actually decreasing. Since we’re very much an import-dependent country, fuel gets imported, main commodities get imported, and that means our purchasing power as a city actually fell [chuckles] even though our revenue base increased. So that brings me then to the third element.

So we talked about the capacity, the structure, what you do with own source revenue, what you generate internally. And then the third is what, really, conversations around the last couple of days have been about; how do you access finance beyond what you can generate as a city? And that would be a mix. There’s grant funding, there’s philanthropy, there’s private sector, there’s concessional loans, and our ability to be able to tap into that is now not dependent just on us. And this is the conversation and this is why the IDB moment was such a special one. The biggest challenge, or one of the biggest challenges cities typically face in respect of accessing finance outside of their own source revenue or government transfers, fiscal transfers, is the way international monetary systems are organized. Most of the multilateral banks, many of them, the World Bank for example, typically will deal with nation states.

So our climate funds, the GCF, the GEF, you don’t access them as a city, you access them as a city through your national government. That adds a layer of red tape bureaucracy if you happen to be in a different political party to your government. You know, it could add a political dimension which slows things down. So, what the IDB has so clearly responded to has been to say, “Look, cities need direct access to finance.” And that’s what the IDB did yesterday. They said, “We’re in and we are going to give finance directly to the cities.”

David 12:43

It opens the door and it’s interesting, the three elements you identified: capacity building, a modern tax collection system, so there’s at least something there, and an open door to be able to apply. You know, people have been working for years to get to this moment.

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  12:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s been a long road. My brief message of congratulations and thanks to them also included a plea for them to share this good news with other multilateral banks, other development banks, regional banks. Just literally with the financial infrastructure, the financial system, and say, “Look, we’re doing it. It works,” because the urgency of the moment cannot be lost. And I think that’s one of the big issues I have with the financial response to the climate crisis. You know, we know the data. The latest calculations say we’re going to need $800 billion a year to 2030 in order to implement the adaptation and mitigation challenges or projects that would reduce the impacts of climate change at this level of cities. Now, we all remember the 100 million that was being asked for countries in the Global South which never materialized. And so a question that was asked to me today in a press conference, and I think very sensibly, was, “If that didn’t happen, why will this?”

And some of the reasons we gave is that this time around we are recognizing that a lot of this can come from fossil fuel subsidy cancellation that guarantee mechanisms from banks would fill some of that gap. That the private sector can be brought in with leveraging funding from the banking sector that we’re also saying would now move directly to cities. So, it’s not an easy ask. There’s no easy solution. No simple solution. But the climate breakdown that we’re seeing today needs urgent action, and urgent action needs to be funded. We can’t stop pushing this message.

David 14:58

[fast rhythmic music] Can you talk a little bit about what you’re hearing from your peers, whether in Africa—South Africa, I think, has a big role to play over the next few years too, along with Brazil, or around the world about what their needs are for finance, whether mitigation or adaptation? Or maybe a little bit about Freetown, what might change, now that the door’s open, if we’re able to craft the instruments that will help the money to flow?

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  15:24

Well, I’ll start with Freetown. I mean, we’ve got a cable car project that we’ve completed a feasibility study on. The first line is $91 million and we’ve got a line of sight for about half of that. We need the rest of it. And this is a mass transit system, the first that the city will have, reducing emissions from transport which may be on a global scale are not—you know, sort of have any, you know, sort of huge significance, but on a local scale are a major source of sickness, of respiratory disease, of air pollution. And we know that when we talk about the climate crisis, we don’t talk about it in the vacuum. We talk about it in the context of socioeconomic challenges, of health, of resilience of people and life opportunities. [music ends]

And on that point of life opportunities, that cable car will reduce travel time by over 50%, which will increase economic productivity whilst at the same time increasing air quality, increasing inclusion, because it will connect formally unconnected or poorly connected communities. So, that’s one thing, and that’s line one.

We’ve actually got the three lines designed which would take us to—you know, close to 300 million. That’s real money needed urgently. Housing, you know, we have something like 600 million people living in informal settlements on the continent, and that number in Freetown, that constituent, is about 35 to 40% of our residents. As the climate crisis worsens, as extreme heat turns people’s homes into literally ovens, sea level rises increasing the vulnerability of people who are already vulnerable, and agricultural crop failures caused by climate crisis leads to accelerated rural-urban migration, bringing more people in the city, making the city more congested. And in the unfortunate situation that we have in Sierra Leone where land use planning and building permits aren’t devolved to the local authorities, we have a terrible cocktail. People, no planning equals chaos, and chaos means more vulnerability. Housing, being able to improve—upgrade those informal settlements with better access, with drainage, with lights. These are adaptation methods to deal with the consequence of climate change. These are real needs. Electric buses, heat mitigation, more trees, green infrastructure, nature-based solutions, these are all the things. Retrofitting buildings, more solar energy, renewable investments, these are all the conversations that we’re having as mayors. And mayors have clear pipelines. They have clear asks because they have clear interventions lined up for which they require finance.

David 18:31

You’ve helped to accomplish all of this in one year as co-chair of C40. Those needs are real, you just spoke about, and they’re global. The rural to urban migration is true in many places, not just in Africa. What do you see over the next year? Its importance for the role of cities? Not just on the finance issue and working with multinational development banks, but a year from now we might be sitting down in Brazil together and [inaudible 00:19:01]. What do you look forward to? Do you have hope and what drives you to take on this very demanding and important role?

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  19:10

I look forward to seeing what is the implementation of an incredible letter that C40 received from a group of multilateral banks saying that they are prepared to work with us over the coming 18 months. Willing to meet on a monthly basis to map out together what this new financial arrangements could be in terms of accessing direct finance for cities. I look forward to Paris Agreement and the national determined contributions that are being prepared by nation states.

[whimsical music] I look forward to CHAMP really being reflected in those NDCs. So really seeing NDCs which have cities, city interventions and the funding of city interventions at the heart of them. And more importantly, to seeing those NDCs being true to the 1.5-degree commitment. If we get to Brazil and this laundry list that I just read out has been met, I think we’ll be in a really good place.

David 20:17

I’m going to call it an action agenda Mayor Aki-Sawyerr.

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  20:21

I think that’s better than laundry list. Yeah, I agree with you.

David 20:23

Your work has helped make this action agenda possible. Thank you today for being on the podcast so people around the world in over a thousand cities can hear this message. But more importantly, thank you for ongoing work in Freetown and beyond. It’s making a very real difference. So, thank you very much.

Mayor Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr  20:40

Thank you so much, and thanks to all the climate fighters out there. Thanks. [music continues then ends]

David 20:51

[soft rhythmic music] This episode of Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press, with generous support from C40 Cities. Want more access to current research on how city leaders are approaching climate action? We also publish the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy. Our mission is to publish timely evidence-based research that contributes to the urban climate agenda and supports governmental policy towards an equitable and resilient world. The journal serves as a platform for dynamic content that highlights ambitious near-term climate action, with a particular focus on human-centered solutions to today’s most pressing climate challenges. To read the latest issue, visit jccpe.utpjournals.press or click on our link in the show notes. [music ends]

Gaya Herrington 21:52

[landline phone ringtone] [handset clicks] Gaya Herrington. I’m a vice president of sustainability research at Schneider Electric, and right now I’m in Seattle. [landline phone clunks]

David 22:02

Gaya, thanks so much for being with us on Cities 1.5.

Gaya Herrington 22:05

So happy to be here.

David 22:07

Well, we’re thrilled to have you. Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. About who you are and an overview of your professional background and work.

Gaya Herrington 22:16

These days I’m more often introduced as a wellbeing economist, and then, you know, I’ll take it. I started, actually, my career in finance. My first master’s was in econometrics, so very much the traditional economics. Then I ended up working at the Dutch Central Bank, so I made financial and economic policy at the international level, so the Netherlands, but also Europe. I was in the BCBS, so the Basal Committee for Banking Supervision, which is global. And then I left that to become a sustainability researcher, and I got my second degree—my second master’s at Harvard in sustainability. And so I thought, “Okay, so I’m done with finance,” and then look at this. I—now I’m back to becoming—to being an economist again. Because I had to, because I realized the only way we can get to true sustainability, meaning building prosperity that can actually last, we have to change our economic system.

David 23:12

So, can you talk a bit about that journey going from being very intimately involved in finance with the international banking system to viewing the economy through a sustainability lens? How did you grow and what did you learn and how did your opinions change?

Gaya Herrington 23:30

It really just came from a place of asking questions. Like I said, I was schooled in neoclassical economics. I was very good at it, so I got all the math and stuff. And then I worked in finance during the financial crisis, and so I asked questions like, “What did we miss?” Clearly we missed something. I thought that was pretty obvious. [laughs]

David 23:51

Oh, I think that’s pretty clear. We missed—the system missed the entire collapse of the Western economic system.

Gaya Herrington 23:57

Wow! And it’s very pertinent. Because it took so many of us, most of us by surprise, an entire collapse. So, what did we miss? And from there on I looked at—You know, it was a whole journey. You start with, “Okay, we missed some ESG,” let’s say.” That was—that’s typically the first step towards sustainability, ESG. “We need to incorporate environmental, social, and governance factors.” And then you realize like, “Okay, but that’s—it’s not going to be enough.” You start to see that it’s a whole interacting thing. It’s not just these separate social and environmental factors that you just have to also report on. They all interact and it’s very complex, and it’s a dynamic situation where the optimal answer constantly changes. How are you managing that? And the truth is, neoclassical economics gives very little guidance on that, if anything at all, because it assumes equilibriums. And we’re not in that. We are in very tumultuous times right now and any politician, any—well, really anybody watching the news knows this, what worked in the past is no way going forward. And that’s, really, the sustainability these days is a lot of people still think of that as it’s the same as the environment and it’s so much more than that, and that’s, really, what I’m working on.

David 25:12

Well, can you talk a bit about what sustainability is from your perspective?

Gaya Herrington 25:18

It’s ultimately the notion our economy is wholly embedded in our society, and our society is wholly embedded in the environment. And these days we almost see it as the opposite. At best we see the economy as something separate, and it’s not. It’s a wholly social construct that we get to decide and each of us owns it. Not just the neoclassical economist, it’s everybody. We co-create it together. And if that doesn’t serve the rest of the environment, it can never last. It can never sustain the society that it’s part of because it’s all ultimately embedded in the entire ecosystem.

David 26:01

Well, it’s interesting you start with that point, because neoclassical economics and neoliberal and any version of those economics sort of treats the planet as an afterthought.

Gaya Herrington 26:15

That’s ultimately why we’re in this current predicament and why we will never be anywhere near sustainable unless we change our economic system. And underlying that system is a—the structures of that system, right? The policies is the mindset, and that’s what you’ve just described. Is this idea of the economy is separate. It’s all rational actions, which is definitely not true. And as long as you keep on to that, we won’t get to this economic transformation we need. So we’re really also talking about how we view the world, how we think things work, and ultimately who we are as human beings, how we think we work.

David 26:53

[whimsical music] Part of that mindset is based on the idea that growth of the economy should be the main goal. We hear this everywhere, we even hear this with the Labour Party in England, yet you and others criticize this focus and obsession with growth as being unrealistic when you include things like the impact on the planet. Can you talk about that idea of growth? Why it’s taken a hold so much, and why—most importantly, why it’s wrong? Why is that central idea of modern economic policy and systems wrong?

Gaya Herrington 27:35

Let’s start with just a little bit of a background. You and I, everybody listening to this, we have grown up in this society where we have seen growth being put as synonymous with prosperity and improving human wellbeing. We’ve been sold this trade-off between the environment and social benefits because, well, you know, even if growth costs the planet, this is well understood and we still have social benefits. And that is a notion that is—first of all is wrong, it’s also relatively new in history. It’s important to realize that we sometimes assume that this has always been the case. If you look a little bit further, throughout most of human history the notion of perpetual growth as the ultimate goal was considered absolutely foolish, if not downright immoral. It’s very clear. So that’s important to keep in mind. This notion of perpetual growth is actually historically aberration.

Secondly, it’s important to keep it nuanced, which means just saying, “Well, maybe perpetual growth is not the ultimate goal. It’s not ideal, it’s the ultimate goal.” It doesn’t mean you’re anti-growth, it just means you’re more selective about it. So you—It’s like, “Hey, what is this growth serving? If you talk about social benefits, can we be a bit more nuanced? And who actually benefits? Is it maybe the most disadvantaged communities or is it just, like, people who are actually already quite wealthy?” That makes a difference. And so that’s the kind of discussions that you have if you examine that growth pursuit a little bit more closely.

David 29:15

So, in your journey from somebody trained in these kinds of systems who started questioning things in the crash, what questions did you need to ask yourself about our economic systems and, you know, the political results of them in order to start reaching conclusions that these systems actually didn’t work?

Gaya Herrington 29:38

I think—And that goes back to the question, but isn’t growth always good? Isn’t it always progress? And so then you—Because that’s ultimately—the only reason that politicians pursue it is because they say, “It’s good for the economy. It helps people. It creates jobs. Jobs is an important part of it.” I can see that when there’s a recession, there’s real suffering. But on the other hand, why despite all those years—especially in the richest countries in the world like the US, why then after pursuing growth for decades hasn’t, at least in those countries, poverty been eradicated? It’s actually stagnating. And why—even the winners in this system, like in Europe for example, why has happiness or life satisfaction been stagnating if not decreasing? And so you come to the conclusion that, wait, sometimes growth does improve wellbeing, especially when the material footprint is low because it goes through real needs like housing and food. Obviously, that’s going to improve your wellbeing.

And [inaudible 00:30:41] see very clearly in the data that once you get to a certain level, your needs are not going to be met anymore with that, because our needs can be satisfied. That’s the key difference between needs and wants. Wants can be—Ultimately, they’re very different and they can be ultimately spurred, but needs, I mean, once you’ve had enough to eat, you’ve had enough, right? And an extra cake is not going to do much anymore. And so then you still have needs but they become increasingly emotional and spiritual, so self-realization, connection with other people, and you don’t actually need a lot of stuff for that. Those are more in the terms of being than having. And those are actually very poorly met in an economy that constantly tells you that you are a selfish maximizer who just wants to have more and more stuff and that’s your definition of success, and that’s exactly why you see people not being happier anymore. And especially in countries where inequality is high, they’re actually getting less happy.

David 31:41

[soft rhythmic music] Very interesting insight. One of the things that leapt out for me immediately, being part of a global coalition of mayors, was a need for community. Whether you think of that as a community as of interest, like supporters of the same soccer team or political advocates for a cause, or community being a sense of belonging to a city, for example.

Gaya Herrington 32:04

Exactly. Those are real needs that we have. I believe that a good economy also helps to get those needs met. If you think, “What’s the definition of an economy?” Right? So there are various definitions. I would say that’s a system that helps people meet their needs. And so it’s not just the physical needs that we should meet, the material, but also the social and spiritual needs. And I think that’s a common misunderstanding when we talk about post-growth, what people, especially in the richer countries here, it is like, “Oh, I have less. This—I’m going to have less, right? I’m already struggling to make my rent. I’m going to have less, even. I’m not doing that.” That’s not what it is about at all, actually. It’s like you’ll have less stuff, but you’ll have much more of what you really need. A sense of security, for example, a sense of connection and a sense of purpose.

David 32:57

So let’s talk about that because it is, as you identify, a challenge for post-growth, degrowth, wellbeing economics, ecological economics. Whichever part of the spectrum you fall on, to try and describe to people what life what might be like if we don’t focus on growth as the main economic goal if we focus on human wellbeing. Can you talk about what an economy based on those kind of principles would look like in reality and, you know, what would people’s lives look like? What would our communities and our cities look like?

Gaya Herrington 33:35

It’s important to realize, I think, that it would be a rediscovery of what it could look like. Because, again, humanity has been doing this for most of the time that our genes have been around. So it’s these principles, for example, that you’re asking for are best preserved probably in indigenous communities today that are really centered around this concept of regeneration. So regenerative economics is an offshoot of ecological economics. It’s more recent. But that’s really of this idea that this purpose, basically, would come from looking to contribute to your community and just leaving the world a little bit better than you found it. And most people really do have that need, and that’s, really, an economy where you go to your job and that’s what you do every day. So you feel you add real value to society every single day. That will be a completely different experience. As I describe it also in my TED talk, it’s physical sufficiency. So it’s not poverty, it’s sufficiency. You have enough to meet all your basic needs, but also enough as in not much further. It’s not like there’s limitless amount of stuff that you can produce, because we live on a finite planet. So it’s physical sufficiency but then it’s emotional and abundance, so it’s a social abundance. You have these things that are shared. For example, universal basic healthcare, which we don’t have in the richest country of the world, we have public transport, everybody has housing, that kind of thing. These anxieties that we see currently in most economies where people are like, “I have a hard time just paying for my electricity and gas and my water and food.” Those are basic needs and so those would be very affordable.

And then certain things will not make sense anymore, like private jets, and I think we can live with that. I don’t think we need mega yachts. The last part is spiritual wealth, and I think that’s where we would have the real wealth. Where we would—we—really, the definition of success would be completely different and it’s where there’s much more focus on where—our being, how—you know, our nuance in thinking, our empathy skills, how much we are contributing to other people’s wellbeing. I think there’s a sense of purpose but I think there’s also the peace of mind that this prosperity can last, and I think that’s important too. It’s hard to enjoy what you have today if you fear that you’re going to lose it in the near future, and I think a lot of us are feeling that way.

David 36:03

Well, the current economic systems do create tremendous uncertainty. Factories can close, for example, easily and quickly, and because of the mobility of capital those jobs can move halfway across the globe.

Gaya Herrington 36:16

[whimsical music] And again, that is a policy choice. To make our livelihoods so dependent on a job is a policy choice. We—Most of us would still be working in a wellbeing economy, but you wouldn’t be homeless or just die if you weren’t. That’s the difference.

David 36:33

You built on your work in that Update to Limits to Growth study with your book Five Insights for Avoiding Global Collapse. I guess my first question is, why did you write the book?

Gaya Herrington 36:49

After my research went viral several publishers asked me to write a book, and I actually declined. Because I was like, “I—This is just a lot of effort to preach to the choir.” And there—So I emailed them back and I said, “You can—I will do it but you have to make it available for free,” and there was only one that emailed back, and so that’s the one I went with.

David 37:10

Wow!

Gaya Herrington 37:11

Yeah.

David 37:12

I’ve never heard of an author saying that to a publisher. [music ends]

Gaya Herrington 37:16

[chuckles] Well, like I said, books are expensive, and rightly so. Because if you print them, they cost resources. So—But they said, “We will put it, the PDF, on our website for free. How about that?” And I thought that was a great solution. So you can still purchase a copy, but you can download it for free. And it’s because, like I said, I wanted to give information to people who felt on some level—who weren’t already the converted who felt on some level, “This is not going well, but what is it? What’s going on?” Because that’s why we see this radicalization so much. People know, they feel—they’re anxious, their lives are precarious, and they’re like, “Something’s wrong,” and then—but they don’t know where to focus it on. And so someone on TikTok comes along in a video that says, “Well, really, it’s feminism,” or, “It’s immigrants.” And you’re like, if you don’t have any other information it’s very easy to see how you get this rise in populism that you’re currently witnessing.

David 38:10

One of the things you’ve talked about is, not only is the current economic system damaging society and our planet, but it’s also impacting the fabric of democracy. We’re a climate change fighting organization, and to us the rise of right-wing populism is extremely worrying because they tend to be climate denialists, the political parties at least. Is there a link between the current ‘not fit for purpose’ economic structure and the rise of far right populism we’re seeing, or at least do you see a link there?

Gaya Herrington 38:44

The thing is with this constant pursuit of growth, it is very much tied to a certain class conflict. You don’t need growth to eliminate poverty. This is a widely held misconception. But you do need growth if you want to eradicate poverty and the wealthiest keep all of what they currently have. There are two ways you can do it, right? You can grow the pie or you can divide the pie more equally, and for that second option, you don’t need growth. And that is, really, why there’s so much pushback sometimes against this post-growth economics, because at first glance it’s fairly innocuous. Like, of course, you can’t keep growing on a finite planet, but then if you think about the repercussions of that, of letting go of growth, it means that the ultra-wealthy will have to share more of what they currently have, and I think that’s why we see so much pushback. I do believe we are now at the point where some collapse is unavoidable. I was more optimistic when I wrote my book, but we’ve seen so little progress over the past five years that I think—I do think that for the privileged people, everybody listening, you and I, you have a responsibility to give up last. But I do also think that if you look at the data at this point, you would be crossing into the territory of toxic optimism if you still thought that we could avoid a collapse. Now, to be very clear, collapse doesn’t mean the end of humanity. This was always a widely misunderstood—a misunderstanding as well. We will still have a society but we will have some rebuilding to do. So when I talk about wellbeing economics, I’m also talking about once it has become very obvious to everybody—to enough people that the current economic system just doesn’t work, this is the alternative I propose

David 40:40

It’s grim news but I’m less optimistic than five years ago too so I hear you very much.

[fast rhythmic music] Many of the points in the update from the Club of Rome, which was published in 2022, relate to genders, women’s equality and shifts needed in our societies to support women’s participation in all aspects of society. Can you comment on how and if gender matters in thinking about how we change our economic systems to meet people’s human needs and to allow us to live sustainably on the planet?

Gaya Herrington 41:22

Yeah, it’s a good question. Yeah, so thank you for bringing that up. The Limits to Growth at the time was commissioned by the Club of Rome, and by now I’ve become a member after I did my research. And then at the 50th anniversary of The Limits to Growth, they published an update as well, which, you know, they were nice about it. They didn’t say, “Okay, you didn’t listen,” but it was basically like, “Okay, so, you know, we’re at the business as usual trajectory. What do we do now with a new model called Earth For All?” [music ends]

They identified leverage points in the global system to really make that turnaround that we by now need because we’re so out of time. One of them was, really, gender equality. That was a massive one. And so it is an interesting question why gender is so important.

And if you go way down the existential rabbit hole then about these narratives that we tell about ourselves, and that’s really underlying all of this ultimately, what drives us? Are we capable of a wellbeing economy, for example? Because some people say, “No, we’re just selfish maximizers,” so it really comes down ultimately to the stories we tell ourselves. And if you go back through history, actual historians have looked at that and they discern these two very dominant overall archetypes of these stories. You have the domination model and the partnership model. And the domination model is, as the name will tell you, very much based on hierarchy. We need to create order in society through these hierarchies, and it’s always men above women, men above men based on religion or sexual preference and all those things. These are always marked by a high degree of inequality as well as violence to maintain these hierarchies.

And then on the other side you have the partnership model, which were always much more equalitarian. There were still differences between people. They were mostly just to aid in the democratic process making. They were small and there was always a high degree of gender equality. This is just how you see. These are the two organizational forms. And in these societies, these are actually more prevalent throughout history based on archeological finds, not necessarily on written history. Because that’s basically a chronology of war, of which is much more likely under the domination model. But for most of human history, people just kind of coexisted under this partnership model, which were truly sustainable, so there was a lot of emphasis on care and the environment. Not so much in the domination model. It was always the care and environment was feminine, which was, you know, not as good as the male forms of, like, strength and violence and all those kind of things.

And so those were always unsustainable societies that’s why they did war so much, because they constantly had to broaden their territory to feed their people. And you see this so well right now. Trump is an excellent example, right? You see him talking about annexing Greenland. Elon Musk, all these tech bros wanting to go off the planet and now colonize Mars and the moon. This expansionary thing is very central in the domination mindset and so this growth pursuit ultimately also comes from that. And so we have to shift our narrative way more to the partnership model and that will always be, also, with the gender equality and the extra emphasis on caring for ourselves and the environment.

David 44:54

Economics historically, at least, perhaps less so today, was very male dominated. Does that have an impact on those two, whether one of those narratives tends to win through and underlying the way one thinks about the economy?

Gaya Herrington 45:09

Yeah. There’s a good book that’s titled Who Cooked Adam Smith’s Dinner. It’s, you know, who did—Because he worked on it full time. He didn’t have an income at the time. So in order to even write it, he had to move back in with his mother who cleaned his room and cooked for him every day. She’s nowhere mentioned. I think his theories about the markets are very interesting and useful, but it’s, you know, when you talk about all the way at the beginning what we talked about, the current economic models, they leave so much out. And I think that’s one of the key things, that you see that the people who make that point—Like, you know, the care economy, when we talk about all the care in the world, that’s not just in the periphery, that’s the core.

Like if people stopped doing all the care work, the society would completely fall apart. If people stopped doing most of what’s in GDP, we could manage. We could do without a lot of marketing directors, I think. I think we could—we would survive. If people stopped doing all the cleaning and cooking and all those things, society would completely unravel within a week, so it’s important to keep that in mind, I think. And again, that’s—for some reason it’s the feminist and the people who talk about gender equality that just bring that, and it just goes hand in hand, I think.

David 46:30

[soft rhythmic music] Today there are many women making a tremendous contribution to economics, both from the perspective of the care economy and many others. What influence are they having, including you, to change our collective way of thinking and how do we help give their voices more of an equal space?

Gaya Herrington 46:51

I think David Graver made an excellent point, that if you look throughout history to—all sorts of crafts, for example, certain techniques, it seems that a lot of the times they actually came from women and they just never bothered to write it down or take credit for it. They just shared it and it spread through the population, and then all of a sudden a man made more of a—[inaudible 00:47:11] with it and they’re like, “He invented it.” But that is something that you see and it’s even with—I would say, in the economics field probably as well. [music ends]

I think they’ve always been kind of doing that, and when they couldn’t, they did it behind the scenes. Which has been widely accepted that’s why you have these tropes of ‘behind every successful man stands, you know, a very supportive woman’.

It’s—You’re right that it should be good to acknowledge their—and give them credit for their work more openly. I think that is one of the key things. If you talk about what we can do, I think one of the things—especially, I would say, as people like yourself, the white men, I think what they can really do more than anything else, of course do all the other things, publish—do your research or contribute to charities and all those things, vote for the right people. I think arguably the most important work you have to do is this internal emotional labor, which is raw, which is—and hard, where you really examine your own sexist biases. Because we all have those, but it’s much easier to not work on it when you’re a man. As a woman, you typically don’t really have a choice but to confront sexism in the society and do some emotional labor on it.

And obviously as a man you’re privileged enough to not do it, and so one of the best things you can do is, really, when you hear a woman speak just be aware that you will probably find—value her words less. Everybody has that, because we’ve all grown up in a sexist society. And notice that and then ignore it, right? So—And that kind of more meditative practice, I think, is something that men can really do in their daily lives. It seems like it’s just internal, but I think that’s the kind of emotional, personal, very—I would say very confrontational work that then carries out, I think, into the rest of the world.

David 49:07

Do you have any thoughts on how all of us can resist and challenge those who stand in the way of the world that’s based on the principles that you’ve articulated and many others have advocated for?

Gaya Herrington 49:22

I do think that, almost purposefully, there’s been a lot of emphasis in the beginning when we saw the environmental movement grow, where there was an emphasis on individual action by this green products and that sort of thing. “You know, don’t toss your trash,” and that sort—kind of thing. And I think that’s on purpose because the real change is going to come from us forming connections.

[whimsical music] And so that’s definitely what I would say, form connections mostly across the world with people who think like you, meet over video, but also, definitely, within your local community. That’s the kind of work that we all need to be doing together. And I do think that there’re some very powerful actors that are fighting resistance, that want to hang on to these current structures because they benefit them so well. I do think they are vastly, vastly outnumbered and they need us more than we need them for sure. And so when we come together, that’s how we build this new future. We don’t even need to—If and when we do that, when we’re together, we don’t even need to fight them, we are just creating our own future together. And, you know, you’re welcome to come along and if not, good luck to you.

David 50:31

All politics is local.

Gaya Herrington 50:33

Right. Yeah.

David 50:35

Gaya Herrington, thank you so much for being with us today. You’ve been incredibly generous with your time, but more importantly, thank you for your ongoing work. It’s my view that people need to see a path and then you are certainly helping us—all of us see that path. Thank you so much.

Gaya Herrington 50:52

Thank you so much for having me. [music continues then ends]

David 51:01

[fast rhythmic music] The poisoning of public opinion, dissolution of rights and freedoms and rapidly escalating threats against multilateralism are not just political issues. We must stop the autocrats along with their financial, industrial, and political backers who are profiting at the expense of our planet and who are the catalysts of its destruction. Many women are already lifetime card carrying members of the Feminist Bureau of Innovation and are experienced resistors against our failing neoliberal systems and institutions, so we should follow their lead to fight back against the interests of the billionaire class which threaten our future. [music continues then ends]

[Cities 1.5 theme music] On the next episode of Cities 1.5, we’re delving into a topic that is more timely than ever, the rise of AI. Tools like artificial intelligence and machine learning are becoming increasingly intertwined in our daily lives, but what we fail to take note of is the darker side of these technologies and also who controls them. We must proceed with extreme caution to avoid a world where this emerging tech is weaponized to accelerate climate and societal breakdown.

I’ll be speaking with Victor Galaz, associate professor in political science at the Stockholm Resilience Center at Stockholm University, about his new book Dark Machines: How Artificial Intelligence, Digitalization and Automation is Changing Our Living Planet to explore this brave new world. You won’t want to miss it. [music continues]

This has been Cities 1.5, leading global change through local climate action. I’m David Miller. I was the mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know firsthand the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I’m the editor-in-chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in collaboration with the C40 Center for City Climate Policy and Economy, where I’m also the managing director. C40’s mission is to help its member cities halve their emissions within a decade while improving equity, building resilience, and creating the conditions for everyone everywhere to thrive.

Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press in association with the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy and C40 Cities. This podcast is produced by Jessica Schmidt and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Our executive producers are Peggy Whitfield and Calli Elipoulos. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder. The fight for an empowered world is closer than you think. To learn more, visit the show’s website linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [Cities 1.5 theme music continues then ends]