Cities 1.5
Cities 1.5
Knowledge is Power
For hundreds of years, people have been pondering the power of information. In this past season of Cities 1.5, we’ve seen examples of cities from around the world who are using data and the lived experiences of their inhabitants to create policies that support healthier lives for people and planet: from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to Tokyo, Japan, to Princeton, Canada. But while history - and our own conversations on this podcast - prove that knowledge is powerful…it isn’t always easy to come by. For the final episode of Cities 1.5 season 5, David meets two knowledge and dissemination specialists who speak with him about the importance of data and information for climate action and what other ingredients are key to effective communications about global heating.
Featured guests:
Katie Walsh, Head of Climate Finance for Cities, States, and Regions at CDP
Andrea Learned, climate influence catalyst and strategist
Links:
Cities are responsible for over 70% of global greenhouse gas emissions - World Bank
Earth Positive Action - CDP
Cities Climate Finance Leadership Alliance Forum
Global Snapshot Report 2024 - CDP
CHAMP - C40
Andrea Learned’s Green Biz article on the five Ls of Twitter leadership
Bowinn MA, Canadian politician elected to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia in 2017
Album: Joy as an act of resistance
Sustainable Development Goal 11 - United Nations
If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website: https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/
Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and Cities 1.5 is supported by C40 Cities and the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. You can sign up to the Centre newsletter here. https://thecentre.substack.com/
Our executive producers are Calli Elipoulos and Peggy Whitfield.
Produced by Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/
Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/
Music is by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/
[Cities 1.5 theme music]
David 00:00
I am David Miller and you’re listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast exploring how cities are leading global change through local climate action. [music ends]
[whimsical music] The phrase ‘knowledge is power’ was first put onto paper by the philosopher Thomas Hobbes in his 1668 book, Leviathan. He was building on an idea put forward by one of the fathers of modern empirical research, Sir Francis Bacon, who was also Hobbes’s former boss when he was a young secretary. For hundreds of years, people have been pondering the power of information. In this past season of Cities 1.5, we’ve seen examples of cities from around the world who are using data and the lived experiences of their inhabitants to create policies that support healthier lives for people and planet, from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to Tokyo, Japan to Princeton, Canada. [music ends]
[slow rhythmic music] But while history and our own conversations on this podcast prove that knowledge is powerful, it isn’t always easy to come by. Earth is a huge and hugely varied place, trying to track and analyze climate change data is an enormous challenge because it’s a global problem and it’s made all the more complex by socioeconomic inequalities, not to mention political discord. Cities are responsible for over 70% of global greenhouse gas emissions, but they’re also home to over half the world’s population and are therefore both a major contributor to, and the main line of defense against climate change. [music ends]
[upbeat music] Even when we work together, share information and are able to pin down powerful empirical data, the next challenge is figuring out how to make it actionable. After all, knowledge in and of itself isn’t necessarily powerful. It’s really the sharing and using of that knowledge that makes it truly transformative. [music ends]
[fast rhythmic music] In this week’s episode of Cities 1.5, I speak with two knowledge acquisition and dissemination specialists. Andrea Learned is a climate influence catalyst and strategist who can tell us about the best practices she’s seeing for sharing climate data and policies in a way that actually produces change. But first, I sat down with an expert from a global nonprofit that runs the largest independent environmental disclosure system in the world. [music ends]
Katie Walsh 03:02
[phone rings] [whooshing] Katie Walsh, head of climate finance for cities, states and regions and North America lead for CDP, and I’m calling in from Brooklyn, New York. [handset clicks]
David 03:16
Welcome to Cities 1.5.
Katie Walsh 03:18
David, I’m so happy to be here.
David 03:21
Katie, I know what CDP is because we’ve worked together for so long, but lots of our listeners probably don’t. Can you talk about CDP and what its mission is in the climate space?
Katie Walsh 03:33
Right. So, CDP is—we’re a global nonprofit and we pioneered climate disclosure 25 years ago. So, at that time we convinced 35 really forward-looking investors to request to companies to disclose emissions data and climate risks so that, you know, smarter decisions can be made. And so from these early efforts now, you can really see how climate disclosure and environmental reporting has become more mainstream, how it’s been introduced into state—national policymaking as a way to manage responsibility and climate change. We leverage this questionnaire every single year to invite thousands of companies, hundreds of local governments to use disclosure, to use reporting and tracking as a measurement tool and a management tool to address climate.
David 04:29
And from your perspective, why does that closure matter and why is it important to those of us who are trying to help the world avoid climate breakdown?
Katie Walsh 04:40
So, the act of disclosing, it’s not only a tool—a communication tool to demonstrate what your progress looks like and your tracking looks like, but it’s a service within itself for businesses and for places, for cities, for government leaders to really support them in identifying risks and actions and the opportunities for growth. And when it comes to local governments, when it comes to cities, I mean, we have examples from all over the world of those who participate. So whether it’s, you know, here in New York where I live, or in Canada over in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, a population of 9,000 who participate. So it’s really for local governments of all sizes to really use disclosure as this measurement and tracking tool.
David 05:26
And presumably it helps interested members of the public hold people to account, whether it’s local governments or businesses or anyone else.
Katie Walsh 05:36
Absolutely. And one of the things that we’ve also seen is, we’ve expanded what we capture in the disclosure over time. So, I talked about how we started out, measuring climate and emissions and risks, and now we’re really looking at the problem more comprehensively. I mean, we know the lasting impacts from climate change are also impacting biodiversity, water, deforestation, and so the questionnaires that CDP offers to these local governments and to companies is really looking at this holistically so that these entities can both, again, understand their impact to protect nature and then to develop, you know, a healthier economy,
David 06:12
Because the disclosure is public people are going to see over time whether the steps that these businesses, governments, and other actors are taking—are achieving their stated goals. And I guess my question is, that might be uncomfortable for some, so how have you found entities willingness to be so public with their data when it can be used to actually verify whether they’re making the progress they claim or not?
Katie Walsh 06:42
Well, the starting point for the corporate disclosure has really been this investor-requested disclosure. So these, the request goes out on behalf of now, you know, over 600 institutional investors representing about 90 trillion assets under management. And CDP is leveraging this request, right? From these investors to companies to request them to disclose. So, there really is demand for this disclosure related data. There’s demand for understanding how to make, again, you know, better financial decision, better policy making decision. And I’d say, when it comes to cities, when it comes to local governments, this is work that is happening through different types of partnerships. C40 is a good example, or the Global Covenant of Mayors or here in the US where these partner organizations, member organizations that are working with local governments are also requesting the data to disclose and to report. So, it’s a collective call to action to share the information, track the information, and see where progress and where action is falling behind to then be able to use this to push for more.
David 07:54
[slow rhythmic music] Your current title, and I’ve known you wearing lots of hats, is head of climate finance for cities, states, and regions and North America. Can you give me some insight of why climate finance is important to CDP given its a disclosure-based organization?
Katie Walsh 08:15
Right. So, working at that intersection of finance and business and policy is really fundamental to what CDP does. The organization’s goal overall is to shift capital towards sustainable action, what we call CDP Earth-positive action. And what we mean when we say Earth-positive is, you know, ways that are going to protect and restore the environment, reduce negative impacts and, again, really taking the kind of planet—interest of the planet at heart and doing so in a way that really takes care of the long-term health and equity of the places that people call home and where they work. The program that I oversee is really ensuring that the capital and investments goes towards this Earth-positive action in cities and places. And there’s two parts of this. The first part is working with local governments to disclose to CDP to really leverage it as a climate, you know, readiness tool, and then we’ve seen the benefit of that from local governments themselves.
So I, you know, was on a panel during Climate Week, the Cities Climate Finance Leadership Alliance forum, with the mayor of Hastings-on-Hudson, Nicola Armacost. And she just talked about how using CDP is really a tool for them to set out their priorities, their plans, their budget needs, and how important that is, really, as they, again, look to identify how they’re going to invest in and support a lot of their local work. [music ends]
And then the second part of your question is, you know, really coming to this element of then highlighting projects that are in—need financing, which we did in the Global Snapshot.
David 09:55
So let’s talk about the Global Snapshot, which is a report that CDP did in partnership with the Global Covenant of Mayors for 2024. What’s the report about and what’s the big takeaway for people?
Katie Walsh 10:12
So, we saw from the 2024 disclosure to CDP-ICLEI Track that there were thousands of projects that are seeking financing, so specifically we had over 600 cities from across 75 countries who disclosed about 2,500 climate projects. Some of these projects are in those early to mid-stage development, so they’re still not yet in a position where they’re reporting financing needs, but overall the project disclosure is about $86 billion of projects seeking financing. And just to note that, you know, we’ve produced these snapshots now a couple times year over year. We’ve done this both regionally and Global Snapshots this is the second one that we’re producing with the Global Covenant of Mayors. But we’re really seeing those project needs increase even from last year. The reporting of project needs has increased by about 23%. So, we think the increase really reflects the growing scale of urban climate action and that the, you know, funding gap really stands—remains as a critical barrier. We know that we need about $4.5 trillion of funding to get the climate action in cities, and we also—you know, I think using the snapshot is a really good guide to basically map out where the ambition is and what the opportunities are.
David 11:38
These are projects that local governments wish to do or are trying to do that are going to have a positive impact on greenhouse gas emissions broadly defined. Am I reading that properly?
Katie Walsh 11:52
Yes. And the projects are, really, in a range of categories. So, this could be buildings and energy efficiency, transportation, water, waste. The local governments themselves will, you know, talk about the projects both in the context of mitigation and adaptation, and, in particular, we’re seeing an increase in the amount of nature-based solutions that are being reported from year to year through the CDP-ICLEI Track disclosure.
David 12:23
I was very intrigued by some of the conclusions of the snapshot. Another one of the key takeaways that I found really interesting because it confirms a bias I have—it’s nice when your own pre-conclusions are confirmed by the research—was that buildings and energy efficiency is the leading sector for reported projects. Can you speak about how the sectors came out in terms of the number of projects that are being proposed that need financing or maybe even have it, and what other sectors? You mentioned a few, a couple minutes ago, were significant.
Katie Walsh 13:03
[rousing music] I think one of the reasons we also see buildings, you know, in particular as one of the big sectors is because it is just—that’s such a big emitter. And I think that’s something—You know, even here in the US you saw the, you know, two leading sectors, buildings, and then, you know, transportation, really come through as some of the places where we need to have the most reductions in order to look at, you know, local energy efficiency and carbon mitigation goals. And I would say with buildings and energy efficiency, I mean that is a leading sector no matter, again, where you are. You know, some of the types of projects that are being reported, I mean, we’ve got an example in Colorado, Fort Collins who reported seeking financing for a building and energy efficiency project. And what they’re really looking at is, you know, existing multifamily buildings and existing commercial buildings had actually increased the efficiency in that existing stock, and, you know, putting in building owner upgrades and the necessary upgrades for the standards. And so that’s something that they included in their project disclosures, about what they estimated, not as the total project cost but the difference is about $12 million that was reported. [music ends]
And again, I think what’s really important with that is the fact that we saw, you know, the US, as a country, had the most reported projects that were seeking financing. And this is really striking in the sense that, you know, at the same time having the support of federal infrastructure funding under the—you know, things like the Inflation Reduction Act or the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, that the demand for climate-related infrastructure, clean energy projects reported by US cities in this 2024 snapshot really outstripped and outpaced even the, you know, existing funding and policy being offered through some of these, you know, actions under that recent IRA law.
David 14:59
It interests me, the CDPs history with the private sector and its origins. Is there a role on—things like buildings and energy efficiency, a role for private finance as well as public?
Katie Walsh 15:15
I think we found this in the report takeaways, really, across the board, is the extent in which we absolutely need to double down on public financing. Just first, I would, you know, definitely underscore that. We need to—There has been a call for and we need to continue to support expanded public financing budgets for these projects, for climate-related infrastructure projects, and that’s something that, you know, CDP and in partnership with Global Covenant and C40 and ICLEI and others have really, again, called for this scaling up of public finance. That being said, definitely there, I think public finance alone can’t, you know, obviously achieve the scale and respond to the types of demands that are coming now online already and what we already need to see, and then of course we’ll get more intensive over time with the climate impacts. But, so we would just say that, you know, looking at blending public and private finance, so again, just public funds being funds from, you know, the national governments or development banks, you know, their role can be really helpful to de-risk projects and attract private finance. But cities might want to—if they have the ability, to look at developing the types of projects that can offer, you know, clear return on investment, clear project outcomes, to then be in service of, you know, more of a public-private partnership.
David 16:46
[upbeat music] How do you think these snapshot reports, which contain really powerful data, might impact the ability of local governments to access climate finance? The numbers are huge. And do you have any thoughts about the impact of these reports on public funding and private funding?
Katie Walsh 17:08
I think what we’re trying to do through putting this report together and what we’re trying to do, again, working in partnership with the Global Covenant is, you know, two things. It’s at that scale of being able to show and demonstrate what’s happening, the need for financing, and the need for financing in local governments, so I’ll just kind of start at the national scale and then work my way down. [music fades off]
But, you know, this is if I think about right now in this moment where you have obviously this, you know, great economic uncertainty that’s happening for various reasons, and at the same time, right? Local and national governments looking at dealing with the impacts of climate change, and then you also have international global policymaking of developing nationally determined contributions for the—you know, kind of achieving that Paris Climate Agreement, what a report like this does is can show you where you can take action now. And I think that’s what’s really helpful. Is you have local governments who are putting their hand up and demonstrating this is, you know, where they want to go, this is where they want to see the investment and it’s tangible. And it’s a way to, you know, combat some of these larger issues with a very, you know, tangible benefits in cities, with very tangible economic boosts and very tangible ways of progressing on some of the, you know, kind of, again, the existential and physical threats, you know, that are impacting local places. The second part of this is then to be more specific and to look at, “Where can we partner—where can we work with, you know, specific countries or in specific places to support the local governments and see change?” So, something that’s happening in Brazil right now, the CDP, the GCoM, C40, you know, working together with the Brazilian Ministry of Environment and technology, right? Organizing events under this Green and Resilient Cities program where, really, you know, digging down and focusing on how to make national commitments. There’s an effort called CHAMP, which is really focused on the coalition of high achieving countries to be able to support subnational, so city-level financing. And so, really, again, pulling all of these entities together with the local governments, putting them in a room, using the snapshot data, using the project level information to really just get specific on where do we need to put the funding, where do we need to make the policy changes, and where do we need to effectively get started to keep pushing on these topics.
David 19:46
Let’s talk about emerging economies. Because they’re different, so the finance needs are different. In terms of mitigation projects, what are you seeing there?
Katie Walsh 19:57
Well, we did see the overall sector that was, you know, reported with—you know, in most need of financing is related to water management, and that—you know, again, that’s across the board but particularly for emerging economies. And what’s so important about water management in particular, right? And, you know, with the needs for that is, this is linking climate and development and, you know, healthy communities, and so, really, like that—again, the trifecta; like public health, development and sustainable infrastructure. And so the cities, you know, in emerging economies water management coming up as one of the highest things, they’re looking at integrated solid waste management, they’re looking at wastewater, sewage treatment and, you know, effectively providing and sort of rehabilitating remediation of like, you know, again, landfill sites and the—looking at the circular economy. And I would say that this is something that, you know, water in general and the types of projects that are being reported through CDP, they’re large scale, and I think that’s also why we’re seeing those as the total cost being quite high, because of, you know, what’s required in them. But I also don’t want to leave out the fact that we had nature-based solutions, as one of those categories that I talked about, is increasing over time, and I think that’s sort of a place to watch and also a place that we—when we’re thinking about these partnerships that will get our local governments closer to developing stronger projects and investment opportunities, we’re looking for those types of partners that can build out nature-based solutions. And again, that links back to water management just in terms of, you know, how do you retain water? How do you deal with water in a way that, again, may or may not be this, like, hardened infrastructure, but can actually be through something like, you know, tree canopy or an investment locally.
David 21:55
If we could make one global systems change which would allow the data you’ve gathered at CDP to be as useful, actionable and powerful as possible, what would that change be?
Katie Walsh 22:08
It’s what CDP does and it’s what—you know, our origins is really making sustainability, like, that climate finance—normalizing that, right? Not making this a niche factor, but really mainstreaming all of these efforts and, you know, into decision making that’s happening at the governance level or the financial level and the investment level. So, you know, what that means is that you don’t have these projects as a kind of nice to have, but the types of climate-related infrastructure and projects that they’re identifying that can be at the heart of these planning efforts that are happening. So again, whether that’s national governments that are looking to achieve their Paris climate-related goals, that they’re taking these city projects into account, or whether that’s, again, at the state or the city level, that they’re really incorporating these climate-related actions, like, just into their regular planning. And that more specifically means their budget planning, that means their public procurement, that means that they are able to integrate the goals there, you know, into that financial decision making that they’re having.
[whimsical music] So, you know, how do you do that? I think—[chuckles] I think the data is in service of that, right? It’s trying to shift that mindset, and, again, being able to have the data to back it up.
David 23:28
Well, you know, speaking on behalf of C40, data is critical and CDP is a massive and important source of that data. So, thank you, Katie, not just for being with us today on Cities 1.5, but for your ongoing work and for this fascinating snapshot of finance needs to actually implement climate action in local governments across the world. We really appreciate the time you’ve taken today and your ongoing work. [music ends]
Katie Walsh 24:01
Thank you.
David 24:04
[upbeat music] This episode of Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press, with generous support from C40 Cities. Want more access to current research on how city leaders are approaching climate action? We also publish the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy. Our mission is to publish timely evidence-based research that contributes to the urban climate agenda and supports governmental policy towards an equitable and resilient world. The journal serves as a platform for dynamic content that highlights ambitious near-term climate action, with a particular focus on human-centered solutions to today’s most pressing climate challenges. To read the latest issue, visit jccpe.utpjournals.press or click on our link in the show notes. [music ends]
Andrea Learned 25:03
[phone rings] [whooshing] I’m Andrea Learned. I’m a climate influencer, catalyst and strategist, and I am calling in from Seattle. [handset clicks]
David 25:16
Andrea, welcome to Cities 1.5.
Andrea Learned 25:19
Thank you, David. I am really happy to be here and, actually, it is really nice to touch base, literally, in this moment in time, because I love to reconnect with my friends in Canada and just, you know, we’re all together in this.
David 25:34
Today we’re going to talk something a bit relevant, actually, I think. About, you know, communication, how we influence the debate, how we influence change. Can you maybe just tell our listeners a bit about your background and what you do?
Andrea Learned 25:48
Yeah. I—At this point, I’m calling myself a climate influence catalyst. I had to come up with a term. What that means is that, I try to help leaders understand that they have untapped or undertapped influence to move kind of the climate action needle with their stakeholders, including, and very—maybe more emphasis on their peers. Because I see real power in changing the perception of the social norm of leadership to be one of bolder movement, bolder action, you know, moving things forward with transportation infrastructure or moving things forward with, you know, energy use in cities and in other ways. I want leaders to see themselves as having some influence and I want them to be more visible and vocal about their personal values and how their personal values connect the dots to what they’re doing in their city or their organizational mode. I identify, I build and I amplify, and I then leverage my climate influence, what I’ve built over time, to make sure that anybody whose story is starting to bubble up and anybody who’s starting to get louder and more proud of what they’re doing, really immediately starts to get seen. Now, my deeper background is that I come from a marketing to women background, I wrote a book, I spoke and all of that, and then I was in communications and social media for climate before all this.
David 27:11
I love the idea of a climate influencer catalyst, but just talk a bit more about what you’ve done. So, you’ve done some really interesting things and it will give people a sense of how you can influence and then—and be a catalyst, and then I want to explore your point about leaders and speaking to their values from their values and their experience.
Andrea Learned 27:33
Yeah. So I think the thing that I got known for, I was a social engagement strategist for the We Mean Business Coalition way back, right? In COP21. And the thing that I got known for is understanding how to use social media to kind of curate and convene and cheer on each other rather than performative or broadcasting, right? So, “This is what our organization is and this is how great we are and whatever,” then really looking at the leader, so the executive director or the person—or the mayor, right? How they’re using their platform and their visibility separate but aligned. And so, I was able to—I actually came up with, and I wrote this for an old GreenBiz article way back in 2017, the top five Ls of Twitter leadership that actually apply, which gets to a point that I talk about a lot, which is naming and framing.
So, the first thing that you do is you listen using social media, and then you, really, are starting to learn, and then the next thing you do is you love up. So what I see a lot of people do is immediately being performative or broadcasting what they’re up to and how great they are and whatever, and there’s no humanity in that. And so my advice was always, the first thing you’re going to do is really understand the community you’re trying to become part of and contribute to, and you’re going to name and fame and love up others before they even notice who you are. And that is my secret sauce and that’s how I built up a lot of engagement and a lot of the followers myself during COP21, which surprised me, but it was my ability. I’m amplifying and loving up others, and by so doing, people are looking at who is the one who’s at the center of that. And I want all the leaders that I work with and amplify to understand that whole mechanism for getting more known for their leadership, because what I really want to do is change the perception of the social norm of leadership. I don’t give a rip about changing the social norm of leadership. I trust that it will happen. With storytelling—with good storytelling, all we need to do is change the perception of the social norm. And I love thinking about that and kind of strategizing around that.
David 29:43
Very interesting to me that it starts by being a leader by praising others.
Andrea Learned 29:49
Yes. [chuckles] That’s so hard for leaders to understand. And here’s the thing, it’s—Have you ever heard that term ‘outstanding in a field’, right? Or how you differentiate yourself? If you are doing the same thing that everyone else is doing, which is focused on saying how great you are or how great your policies are or whatever, everyone’s going to just—you know, your constituents, your stakeholders, their eyes are going to glaze over. But if you go, “Wow! It’s so cool what—you know, that so and so is doing over there,” or you know, “I’m definitely…” Cheering somebody else on, it reflects your values and so you’re starting to leave these hints for your stakeholders about what’s important to you.
David 30:29
[upbeat music] It’s so fascinating. I was an early adopter of Twitter.
Andrea Learned 30:35
Yes, you were. That’s how we know each other. [chuckles]
David 30:37
And—Well, there you are. I’m part of your—You know, you’ve catalyzed me or something. Somebody said to me on Twitter, and it was a woman, she said, “Mayor Miller, you’re using Twitter all wrong. This is about a conversation.” And it—a light bulb went off in my head. I didn’t see it the way you’ve just described, but we started using it, or I used it—it was me, it wasn’t my team—and had conversations with people. And sometimes it would be people who said, “You know, what you’ve done is wrong,” although they do that in a colorful language, and I’d push right back. I’d—You know, they’d criticize tax increases and I’d say, “You know, what do you think pays for public services?” [music ends]
Well, it is unfortunate that Twitter has now become a place of poison and hate, but it was a style that worked for me because I learned a lot about my constituents. Because in order to have a conversation you got to listen.
Andrea Learned 31:30
Yes. And the thing that you’re saying, which is, really, as the mayor of a city, you kind of automatically go, “Well, I’m just going to do the city line.” But what the person was saying to you is, “You’re a human being and this is a real opportunity to have a conversation,” and then you’re understanding that and feeling free enough to do that, that’s a thing that I would really encourage more leaders to understand; being able to be a separate voice from the city and be a human. And maybe you’re, like, resharing stuff that the city is doing, but you being a human is what does it. And being seen going back and forth, being accessible, is gold for your constituents and also for media that are covering you. “Okay. I’m watching this guy, I am getting to know this guy, now I see that,” as a reporter or somebody who’s covering this, “I have access to this guy pretty quickly.” You’re opening that up and there is huge power in that and not enough people are doing it. That’s part of what my cause is.
David 32:31
You had five Ls, was listening one of the five Ls?
Andrea Learned 32:35
Yeah. It was—Listen was the one, number one, learn was two, obviously they’re kind of combined, but, like, really absorb. Watch who’s talking, watch how they’re talking, realize in your gut, “Oh! I really like these five people. I’m going to kind of pay more attention to them,” and then love up. That’s before you ever really post anything about yourself, right? You go, “Oh! Great idea so and so.” “Ooh! Did you read this academics piece on how to lead…?” You’re pointing to all these other people, then they go, “Who’s that person? Oh, wow! They’re the mayor,” or whatever, “I’m going to start following them.” This is the way you get the people that have influence to follow you; you love them up in advance. And then what was it? It was listen, learn, love up, leverage and lead, or lead and leverage. So, you’re leading and then you can have that much more to leverage.
David 33:25
It speaks very deeply to an interesting style of leadership that is perhaps different than some we’re seeing at the moment, let’s say. One of the ways you influence and one of the ways you’re a catalyst is your podcast, it’s called Living Change. Can you talk about why you wanted to do that podcast and what you’re trying to and what you’re able to accomplish with it?
Andrea Learned 33:54
Yeah. Well, Living Change was a podcast I did and it had one season, actually, and it was in 2023, and my whole point was to elevate people that I found that weren’t really being kind of covered much who were in cultural spaces, corporate spaces and mayors, or political leaders, who were seen living the change that they were trying to forward in their world. I actually talked with you for the BikeTalk podcast years ago—like years before. You were a great guest. But the thing is, I talked with mayors, I talked with Bowinn Ma from North Vancouver, I talked with mark Gamba who was a mayor outside of Portland who’s now in the Oregon house, I talked with KEXP DJ here in Seattle, who has a vegan—a plant-based bar that is amazing. All of that is to say, they’re not running around jumping around talking about climate, they’re out there on their bike getting to know constituents. A lot of them are also pretty good on social media. It’s this new form of leadership, this new form of influence, that is not a neon sign and it’s not Kim Kardashian on Instagram. They’re living the change and being slightly—ever so slightly visible about it. Bowinn Ma rides her bike around North Vancouver as a way to—her e-bike, as a way to get around, but also her constituents could see her on the street and go, “Hey, Bowinn. I’ve got a question for you.” And in the same way John Richards’ bar in Seattle, he’s just saying, “Listen, I’m plant-based. Everything in this bar is plant-based. If you are a global KEXP listener and love my show, I know you’re probably going to come here when you visit Seattle. It could be your first plant-based meal, I just want to introduce you to that.” And so the deal is that, these people have influence, people admire them and then they go, “Interesting. Maybe I’ll ride an e-bike like Bowinn Ma. Maybe I’ll start eating plant-based a little bit more, because it’s sure to taste good. And man, I had fun at that bar.” So it’s these hidden things. They aren’t the big platforms, right? It isn’t COP. It isn’t Climate Week. It’s these little ways that you’re reflecting your climate values and then being joyful about it, right? That I love to amplify.
David 36:09
First of all, parenthetically I just have to tell our listeners, Bowinn Ma is the member of the legislature in British Columbia for North Vancouver and the current minister of infrastructure for British Columbia. So she’s a member of the cabinet. Her job is to oversee all the built infrastructure built by the government in British Columbia, Canada, and she rides an e-bike everywhere. So, just for people’s background. Your comments are very interesting because we’ve been doing work on narrative in research, led by my colleague Chiara Morfeo, and it’s very clear from the science that what’s persuasive to people are stories, and what’s persuasive to people are stories from people they can trust. You’ve just illustrated that with the examples you gave. And then you got to joy. You know, talk more about joy. Because you’ve talked about love, talk about joy. Why does joy matter in trying to stop planetary breakdown?
Andrea Learned 37:14
Well, thank you for asking, David, because it is—within the last year it’s become even more important to me. I got my first tattoo ever [chuckles] because there was a band that came through KEXP that’s globally known, it’s called IDLES, and they’re out of Bristol, UK. They have an album called Joy as an Act of Resistance. I met these guys when they came to KEXP because I was kind of on a committee there and it changed my life. There was so much love in this, like, punk music and that title struck me, and I’ve been thinking about it for years. Finally, I got the tattoo on my wrist ‘Joy As an Act of Resistance’, changed my life. What occurred to me in this fight, and especially in current times, what—the existential situation, especially in the US, is that we want hate and horror and fear to rule everything. And we want that to be the norm and we want everyone to accept that’s the way it is and just forget it. I say joy, right? And as I look back at my whole career, and we’ve talked about this before, the biking. Biking for transportation [chuckles] is like the golden ticket. You can get joy no matter what. So I have realized that in my past, it’s been joy. I didn’t get into biking around Portland, Oregon, which is where I started it, for some specific reason. I had a friend who was like, “Why the heck aren’t you riding a bike?” And then I got on and I was like, “Oh my God!” [chuckles] And so, I’ve been riding it for like 30 years for transportation, and the joy of getting anywhere. I say it though as joy as an act of resistance in this sort of activist time where you’re like, “Heck, no! I’m not going to be punched down into this situation,” and the more joy we [have 39:00]. And I think, David, there’s a Venn diagram of joy, climate action and influence, and I think if you put those together, where is your joy? Maybe your joy is in something else. Can you find the climate value in that? I think you probably can, because it has a lot to do with sustainable communities. I always point to SDG 11. Like, I also think that’s a framework that we should really be leveraging much more, because there’s so much community joy in that. So I see joy as a battle flag in a way. Just like, “Yeah, forget that. I’m joy, and it’s going to work.” And it has to do with the naming and framing and the loving up. It goes back to all of that.
David 39:40
[slow rhythmic music] So, SDG 11 is Sustainable Development Goal 11.
Andrea Learned 39:45
Thank you. Yes.
David 39:46
Let’s expand on that theme. We’ve got the Venn diagram, joy is at the heart of it, [about 39:51] climate action. You know, we all know what the government in the United States is doing at the moment on climate action. They’re trying to undermine it and deliberately. And then they’re not alone. The government of Alberta in Canada stopped solar projects and lied that the electricity regulator said they had to. The electricity regulator actually came out in a written memo saying, “We’re not going to lie for you. We need these projects.” But they’d stopped all of them, and all the wind projects. When, you know, the most powerful country in the world stops climate action and attacks innocent people and abducts them and kidnaps them from the streets and sends them to a concentration camp, it’s an incredibly frightening time. You know, even speaking up, some people are afraid of, like Columbia University and some of the world’s biggest law firms. At this moment when we still need to give people courage and hope, how do you use joy, in that Venn diagram you just mentioned, to keep going and to give people the hope that we actually can solve the climate crisis if we collectively do the right things?
Andrea Learned 41:03
I feel like in a way cities, right? Really—That kind of community, that pulling people together in a city, is almost the same thing as, like, I think about sports things or music things. [music fades off]
The way that you all gather at something, and then you look around and you don’t know how people voted or you don’t know whatever, but you’re loving the sports, whatever the game is, right? And you’re loving the music or whatever. I think we need to continue to figure out ways to collect or gather in those ways, because then we look around and we see people as humans, and I think that’s where this joy keeps coming up. If we—You know, this is the thing we talk about all the time; the screens. Everyone’s behind a screen and our kids are always on screen. I think there’s something seriously real to being together in real life, and I think cities have a real opportunity to be the key of that. As we know in the US, because federally nothing’s going to happen or whatever, so all the cities are just—I’m watching cities do amazing things and get excited about—more excited about doing things at the city level, and thinking of that as building up. You know, I look at the West Coast. You know, things that are happening in California—in cities in California, Oregon, Washington, like keep at it doing the things that you can get done, the joy is there in that kind of work and seeing little bits of progress, those can keep at each other. The other thing, back to the storytelling is, do not let those little bits of progress go unseen. So, one of the things I talk about in my work and my Substack is this idea of ‘I spy climate influence’, and I spy climate influence is—I’ll give you an example. There was a story of school buses in Hood River, Oregon. A guy who works on there shared it on LinkedIn, and he was like, “Here’s the deal. We’ve got these diesel school buses and we’ve got these electric school buses. The amount of, like, electricity those diesel buses take to stay warm, you know, overnight in a cold climate is the amount of electricity that will power X number of buses and bring this many kids to school.” There is so much joy in that story. Is that story being reported on or joyfully whatever? I’m taking it on as my own to say, “We need to get louder about these little bits and pieces, because that story isn’t blue or red,” right? That story is like, “How cool! Our community is saving money.” So I think the joy is there, we have to be better about telling these little blips of these stories. So, collectively we just keep seeing these bubbles rise of like, “Oh! Something cool is still happening.” That keeps people going on with this joy, I think.
David 43:40
Almost like an epiphany.
Andrea Learned 43:42
Let’s talk about epiphanies, because I have said this in my work in previous years in food systems transformation and in anything, even with bikes. When the person is ready or when the neighbor suggests that they try their e-bike or whatever, and they have that moment and they ride it for the first time—Especially e-bikes, you’ve seen this, I’m sure, with your friends. It’s their eyes just go, “What!” [chuckles] And they’re like—You know, it could be like a 50-year-old [white 44:08] man who, like, works at the bank downtown, right? Who just you would think is very staid and kind of—but the joy just comes right back in. So, that conversion moment, don’t let that drop, right? Identify that conversion moment. And even, I will say with my neighbors, people will try it and then they’ll kind of go, “Yeah, one day I want one of those.” I just keep riding by and going, “Hey, have you tried one again?” You know, like telling the story, I think that’s interesting. The definition of storytelling is all these little bits and pieces too. You know, it’s all of this nudging that I do on social media. It’s the nudging that you do in person. Your story is that you find joy in riding a bike for transportation and you’re just—you represent that, right? And so I think these conversion moments, the stories about conversion moments are the ones where people are like, “Oh! That person did that. That person went plant-based? Wow! That person is a lot like me. I could do that too.” And the person who’s had the conversion is, like, so excited to talk about it. We’ve got to leverage that.
David 45:12
Yeah, they become evangelical almost. I—You know, I’ve been smiling the whole time you’ve been giving this example because I ride my bike everywhere, or walk or take transit. And I’ve got a friend who’s—a pretty conservative guy who’s a pharmacist, and he decided to get an e-bike to commute for work, mostly because he wanted exercise, and he is now telling everybody. He keeps saying to me, “When are you getting an e-bike?” And I’m saying, “I’ve got a bike,” and he said, “No, no! You need an e-bike.” [chuckles] Like, it’s just—It is so spot on. My question to you though, given all your experience, you know, in advising about communications and creating communications, with podcasts, Substack, radio, everything, how do mayors and city governments and their communication departments take that kind of lesson and learn from it so that they can more effectively communicate about climate?
Andrea Learned 46:06
Well, I think that, you know, in the past like 10 years or whatever, I’ve seen cities do a better job of, like, you know, going in and telling sort of community engagement stories and all of that. What I think is missing is this leadership level thing. Like, you know, is there a mayor who’s out there saying, “Oh, good. We’ve got bike infrastructure,” or whatever kind of symbolically? Has that mayor ever been seen themselves riding a bike? These disconnects. So, there’s storytelling that can be leveraging the human being who is the leader. And so I’ll—You know, an example from C40, right? Would be Mayor Hidalgo. When you see her standing next to a bike share with her bike helmet on, that’s a huge thing. [chuckles] And when you see her diving into and swimming in the sun, that’s a huge story. That’s not anything anybody else can’t be doing. [chuckles]
And so, the stories around the human being—And this really goes to my whole climate influence thing, and which is probably why I’ll interview mayors and political local leaders for my new podcast climate influence. What is driving them to make climate action-driven, you know, policy changes? What is that? It isn’t just the data coming in and like, “This is what we should do.” It’s like there’s a little spark, right? They had a conversion moment or they had some epiphany that made them realize that they, as a leader, needed to try and push this climate action stuff through. What was it? And I want to hear that story. I want to hear that story from the city’s communications team. And it doesn’t have to be a big—one big blog post or whatever. They can leak it out. “You know, this is why mayor so-and-so does this. He once did this,” right? And then three months later, “This is why mayor…,” and use podcast guesting better. Get these mayors on a variety of shows so that they can talk about what was the conviction in them that makes them do this, and where are they experiencing their climate values in real time.
David 47:57
So, let’s talk about your new podcast.
Andrea Learned 47:59
Yes, please. It’s in development. I’ve been in the Stony Brook University podcast incubator, which I want to just give a big thumbs up to—it’s incredible for anybody who’s at that stage—and working on the—kind of a greater scale. So Living Change was really about kind of being seen living the change at that level, and mainly about food and transportation, which are my two big things. But I’m looking for little bit kind of—at a more national level or at a greater level, of leaders who are—or influencers who are living their change but have also kind of identified how to use it and are using their influence better, so they’re conscious of their influence. I think maybe the people that I interviewed before weren’t so conscious of it. They just did it and I was identifying it. So, for example, Bill Weir, who’s a reporter—the climate reporter for CNN, like one of the main ones, he has a new book. How did he become a climate reporter? It’s a really interesting story. You know, you read all of that and then you realize—I talked with his PR people once and I said, “Well, what does he do in his own life?” And they said, “He rides city bike everywhere in New York,” and I was like, “There you go,” right? I want to talk about that more. So I would like to interview him and really talk about that. And then mayor—you know, Mayor Wu of Boston, right? She was taking transit and riding an e-bike before she became mayor. I want to keep highlighting that. So it’s these sort of bigger picture stories of people who, I think, have identified that they’ve got some influence and so are using it a little bit more wisely. Again, I feel like the work that I’m doing is a social experiment. As much as I can find people who are doing this right and amplify them and raise them up, it’s giving others the idea that they can be braver to do this. I believe that a lot more leaders have this kind of gumption. They have a little something in them that would really like to be a little louder about their climate values, but they’re kind of, like, holding back from our culture. I’m trying to lift up a couple people who are in these positions who have been like, “Flip it! I’m going to go for it,” and they have and they’re safe and people love them and it’s making change.
David 50:12
You’ve been really clear about the importance of joy and storytelling and who the storytellers are. What about data, does it have a place?
Andrea Learned 50:21
Data has a place because it’s lovely to be able to demonstrate kind of—and show the proof is in the pudding, I think. And the other thing is, there’s a story. Because the story of the data is, “10 years ago we saw this, this is what we’re seeing now. Let’s talk about that. And by the way, there’s a story of Bob Smith who actually represents that story,” right? Figuring out a way to interweave that data with some human stories that happened along the way that really demonstrate that data, you know, the point of that data, is hugely powerful, and it is something that I don’t think cities or corporations really understand yet. I think people have this, really, traditional like, “Here’s a story. We’ll find a story and we’ll write it up.” No, no, no, no. It’s this whole series of things. “What is the bigger story that we’re trying to do? Let’s talk about this story with this data, and let’s talk about this story with that data, and then let’s do a podcast guest situation on this.” I think there is a lot of opportunity with data because it forms, like, this great structure or foundation. I think you can tell stories on emotion alone, but I think data is fantastic because it gives that one more layer of trust to people who need it.
David 51:33
In the climate space at the moment, it’s really tough for people. You know, particularly people working in it. You know, we’re facing an existential crisis. The world needs to have emissions by 2030, roughly, more or less. We don’t seem to be on a path. It’s a dark time given the politics in many countries, not just yours. What keeps you going and what gives you hope in this difficult moment?
Andrea Learned 52:02
What keeps me going, really, it’s probably the same thing or similar things that keep you going. It’s the opportunity to talk to people, to interview people, to do this thing where I spy climate influence. As long as I can see little baby seeds, right? Of stuff moving us forward, I can maintain my momentum with this whole thing. And so, that keeps me going as well as really focusing on joy when I’m not sitting in front of a computer or whatever. Like really going on and making sure that I’m doing big bike rides and really—you know, there’s—I do this other thing called dance [church 52:41], right? It’s just like a really good playlist and you dance your butt off for an hour and a half. Like that joy that’s separate from thinking about it. And then the other thing is going to, you know rallies or protests rather and looking around and having conversations with a couple people and just feeling that community, it’s really worth doing. I mean, going to protests and being among people, that all really keeps me going. And the other thing is, to keep that bigger view of, “This—What’s happening is horrible and we don’t know how it’s going to end and whatever,” but there’s this longer story that we’re still part of creating a foundation of something that can be a basis for big change and kind of getting back to something once this—what’s happening is over. And so, you know, we’re looking at four years and all that, is what we think, but I—just keep your eye on the prize, which is history kind of, you know, it goes in and out of things. And I think if you keep your eye on the prize of what’s next after this, you can keep working forward and finding your joy and figuring out ways to tell stories or tell your own story better.
David 53:55
Well, there’s lots of optimism in that. Let’s hope you’re right. In the context of this conversation and of your work, for at least the last 20 years, if we could make one global systems change today, or if you could, I suppose, what would it be?
Andrea Learned 54:15
A global systems change? I feel like—You’re going to laugh. It’s so obvious. Making not driving, so making transit, biking or walking the most obvious thing to do in [every city 54:30]. That’s assistance change, like less car.
David 54:34
I’m not going to laugh because that’s why I spent seven years as mayor and 16 years as city counselor trying to do.
Andrea Learned 54:41
If I had a magic wand, I would want every city leader, some—anybody involved in a city globally to get on an e-bike, and to ride it for one day, and then to see if they could—they end up voting differently on transportation infrastructure. And the deal is, as we know, it’s transportation but it’s also people going, “Oh my gosh! I love this.” Right? And waving to people on their bikes and stopping in at local businesses more and kind of all that. The community.
[fast rhythmic music] That’s why I refer to SDG 11, which is sustainable cities or sustainable communities. That whole umbrella, if you change transportation or you change the norm of transportation and get people on an e-bike, leadership, their brains will explode with like, “Oh my God! Why isn’t everyone doing this?” I want to bring that. I—You know, we’re in the same thing. I don’t know how we’ll do it, but I have a vision.
David 55:35
Their brains will explode with joy. Andrea, thanks so much for taking the time with us today, but more importantly for your ongoing work to not only plant these seeds, but water them so that things grow. It’s terrific work. Really appreciate it.
Andrea Learned 55:52
Thank you. And I would love if people care to follow me on Blue Sky, LinkedIn and Substack. I do a little bit of an audio on Substack and my climate influence podcast is in development. Ideally it will launch in September, so I really appreciate this opportunity. And David, I will talk with you anytime.
David 56:11
Terrific. Thanks. [music continues then ends]
David 56:16
[rousing music] The most recent scientific data shows us clearly that cities hold an enormous amount of potential to drive transformative change, but it also shows us that accessibility and equity issues, such as barriers to financing, mitigation, and resilience efforts, pose significant hurdles for urban climate action. Luckily, the resolution of some of these issues tends to come about more easily when you rely on the true power of information, sharing it with others. When we lean into clear, honest, and human communication to talk about the problems we’re facing, we’re much more likely to make genuine connections and to get things done. Climate change is scary, but addressing it can also be really hopeful. Maybe it can even be joyful too. [music ends]
[Cities 1.5 theme music] Well, that’s a wrap on season five of Cities 1.5. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed our conversations with so many wonderful guests and that they’ve helped you feel at least a little more empowered to fight for climate action in your own backyard. We’re taking a little break, but stay tuned for season six debuting this fall. Plus, if you’ve subscribed to the Cities 1.5 feed, there will be an extra surprise this summer. We’ve been working hard on our first ever miniseries about the late great economist Herman Daly. You won’t want to miss it.
David 58:03
This has been Cities 1.5, leading global change through local climate action. I’m David Miller. I was the mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know firsthand the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I’m the editor-in-chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in collaboration with the C40 Center for City Climate Policy and Economy, where I’m also the managing director. C40’s mission is to help its member cities halve their emissions within a decade while improving equity, building resilience, and creating the conditions for everyone everywhere to thrive.
Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press in association with the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy and C40 Cities. This podcast is produced by Jessica Schmidt and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Our executive producers are Peggy Whitfield and Calli Elipoulos. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder. The fight for an empowered world is closer than you think. To learn more, visit the show’s website linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [music ends]
