A Tale of Two Cities: A New Chapter

In this episode of Cities 1.5, we bring you another "Tale of Two Cities" - but this time, David sits down with two pioneering mayors from opposite ends of the globe. Despite their vastly different histories, both Athens are Melbourne are inspiring and leading the way through the climate crisis, and mitigating its impacts.We explore Athens is embracing progressive economics and tackling energy poverty, and how Melbourne is transforming and greening urban spaces and trailblazing renewable energy schemes and much more.These urban leaders are protecting city residents from climate impacts, engaging the next generation, and proving that local innovation and leadership is the best way to navigate the climate crisis. 

Featured guests:

Haris Doukas, Mayor of Athens

Nick Reece, Lord Mayor of Melbourne

Links:

Inside the World Mayors Summit: Cities throw down the gauntlet - Cities 1.5

Inside the World Mayors Summit: The battle for cities, truth and a fossil fuel free future at COP30 and beyond - Cities 1.5

Athens mayor focuses on getting capital through extreme heat - The Guardian

A blueprint for European cities? Athens announces new initiative to tackle energy poverty - Net Zero Cities

Doughnut Economics Action Lab

4th Youth Assembly on Climate Change with the participation of University Students - Eliamep

Nick Reece reveals plan to make Melbourne the “Garden City” - Southbank Local News

Melbourne Renewable Energy Project 

Disinformation and the City - Melbourne Centre for Cities

What should Melbourne be like in 2050? - Docklands News

M2050 Summit Report

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website at https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Listen to the Cities 1.5 five-part miniseries “Going Steady with Herman Daly: How to Unbreak the Economy (and the Planet)" here: https://lnk.to/HDMiniSeries

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and the C40 Centre, and is supported by C40 Cities. Sign up to the Centre newsletter: https://thecentre.substack.com/

Writing and executive production by Peggy Whitfield.

Narrative and communications support by Chiara Morfeo.

Produced by Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Music by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

[theme music]

David 00:01

I’m David Miller and you’re listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast exploring how cities are leading global change through local climate action. [music ends]

[slow rhythmic music] There are decades where nothing happens and there are weeks where decades happen. Although the origin of this quotation isn’t clear, it certainly sums up where the world seems to be right now. While we’re glued to our screens watching for the latest updates on geopolitical events or trying to avoid them altogether to protect our well-being, the climate crisis is still unfolding around us. This crisis, however, is not making headlines today. It’s easy to feel despair at times like these, that’s why in this episode we’re turning our attention to the positive climate work to very different cities [and 01:01] their mayors are implementing. Way back in season two, we featured Maurice Kavai, Deputy Director of Climate Change and Air Quality Monitoring from Nairobi, and Ahmed Aboutaleb, the then mayor of Rotterdam. For this sequel, we’re profiling two mayors from another set of very different cities on separate continents, more than one third of the Earth’s total circumference apart. [music ends]

[melodic music] Our first city is known for being the birthplace of Western philosophy and the Olympic Games, with a skyline of white marble columns. Named after a goddess of wisdom, ancient ruins sit next to modern metro stations.

Haris Doukas 01:49

Athens is the cradle of democracy, so I was thinking that maybe a truce with nature could be meaningful. We could have this message that true peace is not just cease fire, but also a new balance with nature. Stop poisoning rivers, stop heating the air we breathe, and in a way this could not be just a seasonal truce like with the Olympic Games, but survival.

David 02:18

While Athens dates back millennia, our next city is under 200 years old, although it does host the largest Greek-speaking population outside of Europe. The city is famous for having the world’s largest tram network and a labyrinth of bluestone laneways. They’re celebrated for their street art and coffee culture, but this city is also situated on the driest inhabited continent in the world.

Nick Reece 02:47

One of our big challenge is, how do you make plants grow in a really dry environment? And so, I’m very excited to say that, you know, working with some of our universities in Melbourne, we have developed all this incredible new scientific understanding of how we can build greenery and green infrastructure in places we’ve never imagined previously, and it’s transforming our city in the most wonderful way. [music ends]

David 03:12

[fast rhythmic music] Despite their differences, Athens and Melbourne have a lot in common. They’re both led by pioneering and innovative mayors who are delivering climate action and transforming their cities for the benefit of all residents. So, if you’re looking to be inspired by local politics climate-proofing the future, then this is the episode for you. Both of the following conversations took place in Rio de Janeiro at the World Mayors Summit late last year. We’ll be hearing from Nick Reece, the Lord Mayor of Melbourne, later on in the episode. But before we get to him, my first guest is not only an academic and climate scientist, but like me, he’s a huge fan of progressive economics, and also he came from being an underdog to winning the mayoralty of his city. [music ends]

Haris Doukas 04:11

[phone rings] Haris Doukas, Mayor of Athens, Greece. [handset clicks]

David 04:15

Mayor, thank you so much for being on Cities 1.5.

Haris Doukas 04:19

The pleasure is mine. It’s always nice discussing about climate and cities. I was a professor, you know—

David 04:25

I know.

Haris Doukas 04:25

—of energy and climate policy. So, what I was modeling, I have to put it now in practice.

David 04:32

So, can you just talk about from your perspective the importance of coming together as mayors through C40 in helping mayors deliver real climate action, and in helping us shape progress globally as well?

Haris Doukas 04:47

I think what is being done here is really critical because the fight for climate change needs to [begin in 04:53] cities. And then we need the power to be able to address climate crisis, climate breakdown, and of course we need money and cooperation and support among each other. Now, the current situation is not so good. Previous years, climate was top priority. Now drill-baby-drill is gaining ground. Also in Greece, where they consider how they can extract oil and gas, previous three or five years the key question was how we can exploit renewables. But in a way, it’s an existential threat that we need to fight, and we are progressive mayors. And also, as a climate scientist and professor, I have to admit that we need to act fast because we don’t have time.

David 05:42

We don’t have time. The science is really clear.

Haris Doukas 05:45

So, what we said in Athens is that each year we will plant within the city 5,000 trees. It’s difficult within a city because it is a city of cement. We achieved this the previous year. We’ll achieve it this year. [We have 05:57] 5,000 trees per year, we build—we create also micro forests. And we have also created an energy poverty alleviation office. This is critical for social issues because energy transition needs to be socially just. So, what we do, we identify social energy poor households, and for these households the offering is zero municipal fees. Zero. And then additional things like we produce in Athens green electricity with photovoltaics, and a percentage is given virtually with virtual emitting to these households. And heat waves are increased 45°C.

David 06:42

So, 45° it’s almost to the level that people can’t be outside, yes?

Haris Doukas 06:47

Yep. This is why we have alerts and alarms, and we say that you have to be in your houses with air conditions. So, imagine how increased is the cooling, huh?

David 07:01

Yes, very much.

Haris Doukas 07:02

So, of course, 300 schools with photovoltaics and energy efficiency. But in a way, this is an offering for Athens. I think that we need to think with more bold actions. But in my point of view, mayors have a key, let’s say, role to play, because current governors are in a different direction.

David 07:26

So, let’s talk about that a little bit. Because a lot of the governments talk endlessly about oil and gas. They talk about economic growth being the only goal. You seem to have a different perspective, thinking about how your residents can have good, meaningful work within planetary boundaries.

Haris Doukas 07:49

Doughnut economics. You have boundaries and you need to be, in a way, within these boundaries, otherwise, you cannot have economic growth without social growth and without environmental protection. It is not sustainable.

David 08:04

It’s not sustainable. Could you talk a little bit about how that thinking works in the city, so that if you think of doughnut economics, you actually end up with the policies that are bringing it together?

Haris Doukas 08:15

Yeah. You know, what is important is, in a way, to speak to people’s hearts and to increase the money they have in their pockets, to be very realistic. So, there are people very poor, who have cooling needs. So, as a mayor, I cannot be, let’s say, just in theory.

David 08:36

Yes.

Haris Doukas 08:37

So, I said, “Okay, we can have some money just devoted to these households.” How if a household has difficulty for cooling demands or thermal demands within the winter? Then we should find a way to pay. So, if zero municipal fees for this household, then they could find some money for this heating and cooling purposes. Then we start having solar in our rooftops, schools, municipal buildings, so we produce our solar electricity. And we said it might be better not to use it for the municipality bills, but for the poorest. So, we said with virtual metering, we provide a significant percentage of electricity just for free, green electricity, to these households. In this respect, we have a twofold impact. First, greening Athens and reducing emissions. And second, securing the poorest, so we reduce social inequalities. And this is critical because when we discuss about energy transition, it has to be just transition. Otherwise, it’s not green transition.

David 09:50

It’s heartening to hear it that clearly articulated. And, you know, fully agree that without social justice, you can’t have a green transition.

Haris Doukas 10:00

It’s greenwashing.

David 10:01

Yes.

Haris Doukas 10:01

I’m saying it also loudly that if you produce green electricity but bills are up, then you are doing nothing.

David 10:11

So, you’re an interesting mayor because you come from an academic background. Okay. I’m a lawyer. I was a lawyer before being a mayor. There’s lots of lawyers who’ve gone to politics. Not so many academics. Can you talk about how your academic background has informed your approach to being mayor, to leading Athens, you know, one of the world’s great and most historic cities? And, you know, does it influence the way you think through decisions? Does it influence how the city works with academic institutions?

Haris Doukas 10:42

First of all, it was not within my plans. Since we discussed about yearly and five-year plans for climate, I was a complete underdog. What happened was that the Athenians didn’t want professional politicians. They want to change the city with someone that is, of course, a scientist or in a way knows what has to be done, what we need to do, but also he is not what we call a politician that keeps saying promises, [that 11:17] we need to walk the talk. And this created a significant social movement that made me the mayor of the capital, even though less than three months ago, I was just a professor of energy and climate policy. And from then till now, people are supporting us because we are not saying crazy things. We are working hard without announcing fancy projects, but just quick wins that can change everyday life.

David 11:47

I’m sure the focus on everyday life is really resonating with people.

Haris Doukas 11:51

Yes.

David 11:52

How does the city approach relationships with academic institutions? Are they of value to the city’s work?

Haris Doukas 11:59

Yes. In a way, we are working in close cooperation with all universities around or within Athens, and also with important universities all over the globe, for instance, with Harvard, with Oxford. We want data-driven decisions, but we want also scientists to provide us the correct data and the correct directions. So, we have experts that guide us and not just companies. As you know, they have as a main priority profit, while universities say, “Okay. We can guide Athens, the capital of Greece.” So, it’s not just profit, but young people will say things that will change the capital of Greece, and also it will be a very good bullet for their reference.

David 12:50

Yes. Well, they’d be proud, eh?

Haris Doukas 12:52

Proud, while companies do the same. [Yeah 12:54].

David 12:54

So, you’ve hinted at this before. There’s political figures right now, particularly the far right, are trying to derail climate action, often using online misinformation. You seem to have been able to shift the public narrative to build support for ambitious projects and policies. Can you talk about how you’ve done that? Because it’d be a powerful insight for mayors and others who really care about climate action. Yeah. How do you shift people’s thinking from they care about climate to they support particular actions that are being promoted by the city?

Haris Doukas 13:31

First of all, with the data. Air quality was bad in Athens. People were dying in Athens. These were the data, 3,000 young people had difficulties, asthma, and these data were a shock for Athenians. Second, you need to create co-creation procedures. I mean, people to feel that they participate and they have ownership of action. So, we created climate assembly with virtual and physical meetings. Physical meetings three times per year, but virtual many. And youth assemblies, this was very strong. For young people, climate is still first priority, still. So, we engage, we have also important support and funding from European Commission, but also from Bloomberg. So, we fund young people for actions. Not only plants, climate actions. For instance, we fund and we have, let’s say, reforestation nearby schools or nearby hills. Imagine that with young people, we had 2,500 trees planted in hills. Just with young people, with no specific services from the municipality.

[whimsical music] So, in a way, triggering attention and engaging was key and still remains my key priority.

David 14:55

It’s interesting you engage the youth, but help them find real projects.

Haris Doukas 15:01

Real projects, in order not to get bored. Action—learning for action.

David 15:05

Learning for action.

Haris Doukas 15:05

Learning for action.

David 15:07

Mayor Doukas, I love that phrase. To me, that’s a phrase that would resonate amongst all your colleagues here.

Haris Doukas 15:14

Thank you very much.

David 15:14

Thank you for your leadership and thank you for being part of C40. To learn from your colleagues, but more importantly, so they can learn from Athens.

Haris Doukas 15:23

Let’s keep fighting.

David 15:24

We’ll keep fighting.

Haris Doukas 15:25

Thank you. [music ends]

Peggy 15:30

[theme music] This episode of Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press, with generous support from C40 Cities.

Jess 15:38

Want more access to current research on how city leaders are approaching climate action? We also publish the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy.

Peggy 15:47

Our mission is to publish timely, evidence-based research that contributes to the urban climate agenda and supports governmental policy towards an equitable and resilient world.

Jess 15:58

The journal serves as a platform for dynamic content that highlights ambitious near-term climate action, with a particular focus on human-centered solutions to today’s most pressing climate challenges.

Peggy 16:09

To read the latest issue, visit jccpe.utpjournals.press or click on the link in our show notes. [music ends]

Nick Reece 16:21

[phone rings] My name is Nick Reece and I am the Lord Mayor of Melbourne. [handset clicks]

David 16:27

I’m delighted today to be speaking with the Lord Mayor of Melbourne, Nicholas Reece. I think Nick to all his constituents. Mayor, thanks very much for joining us on Cities 1.5.

Nick Reece 16:39

Thank you, David. And I must insist that you call me Nick. Whenever I hear Nicholas I feel like I’m in trouble with mom.

David 16:48

Now, Australia is really on the front lines of climate change, as well as being the driest continent on earth after Antarctica. And I know you’ve been experiencing climate impacts in Melbourne. Can you take me through some of the initiatives you’ve been championing to combat the climate crisis since you became Lord Mayor?

Nick Reece 17:08

We are the level of government that is there on the street, closest to the people, dealing with the challenges that people feel most acutely in their day-to-day lives. It’s also the case that city government is the most nimble, the most agile, and often because of that closeness to the people, are the most creative in finding policy solutions to the challenges that we face. And you see this, I think, so clearly in the climate space. And so, in Melbourne, we really pride ourselves on being world leaders in certainly some areas that we have pursued. Whether that’s expanding tree canopy across our city from 20% to over 40%. By 2040, we’re planting over 3,000 trees a year. Whether it’s setting up really innovative group bulk buying schemes for renewable power. Whether it’s taking all of our electricity purchase from the city over to renewables. We’ve done that to drive major new investments in renewable power. Whether it’s trying to get our transport system to be more active as well by rolling out tens of kilometers of new cycling infrastructure to help make our city more sustainable from that perspective. And all the while we’re doing that, we’ve always got that fairness lens that we put across what we do, because we do recognize we’ve got to bring everybody with us on that journey.

David 18:33

That lens is critically important in my perspective to climate action. And I think it’s shown globally when you include people in helping frame solutions to challenges they and their neighborhoods and communities face, they’re going to help you develop really robust solutions that will stand the test of time because they meet their needs as well.

Nick Reece 18:53

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I ran for election on last year was about making Melbourne a garden city and massively expanding our networks of parks and gardens and green spaces across the city. So, our city budget is delivering 16 new parks across the city. Well, we’re hoping to do more than double that over this term of council. We’re also looking to green everything. You know, like green laneways, green walls, green rooftops. And there’s some really exciting and innovative things happening in this space from landscape architects, designers. Also, arborists are coming up with fantastic new technological innovations that can help with city greening. We’re also doing a lot of work around just cutting our emissions. So, we signed on to be—well, we’re actually—we’re already—at the city of Melbourne, all our electricity is currently purchased through renewable power. And as I’ve mentioned earlier, we did a Melbourne Renewable Energy Plan, which was a big bulk purchasing scheme that helped generate—now it’s generated two new wind farms in Australia, which has been great. But the next sort of cab off the rank that we’re looking at is how do we convert some of our gas-fired power generators, particularly in things like our sports and rec facilities and some of our big buildings, how do we get them onto electric and then get them onto renewable power at the same time? You know, our action commitment is we’re going to have 11 major buildings and facilities, which are still running on gas—the last 11—we’re going to take them off gas, get them over to renewable electric in this term of council, which is a really exciting undertaking. In the main part, it’s our sport and rec facilities. You know, in Australia, we love our local swimming pools. There’s a reason why we win all those medals in the Olympics in the pool. It’s because every neighbourhood has a pool and every summer you get down there. And in recent decades, of course, in winter, people like to go and swim as well, and we’ve built all these gas-fired heaters for our pools. Now, my job as mayor is to keep those pools open for as long as possible, but get them off the gas, get them onto electric—renewable electric. So that we can still produce gold medal winners at the Olympics and our communities can still enjoy and love our pools, but they’ll be fired by renewables, not fossil fuels.

David 21:28

It’s a very powerful pledge and quite interesting, because gas is a huge issue in a lot of our cities. And it’s sort of—in North America, at least, it’s sold as being clean. And C40 studies are very clear that because of leaks in the pipeline system, which leak methane directly to the air, it’s not clean at all. So, those efforts are fantastic. I’d like to turn, if I could, to one other issue that mayors are talking about, which is disinformation. There’s been some interesting work done by the Melbourne Centre for Cities on disinformation, and I was wondering if you could comment on your experience as Lord Mayor, including the last campaign, on disinformation. Is it affecting local politics in Melbourne? Is it affecting politics generally?

Nick Reece 22:15

Yeah. So, I think disinformation is a huge challenge to democracy. I have seen it in recent times in a number of very pointed ways. I should say prior to being the Mayor of Melbourne, I used to work for the Prime Minister of Australia, Julia Gillard. And I’m very proud to say we—I served in a government that introduced a price on carbon, which was a hotly debated issue, but we succeeded in doing that. Unfortunately, we ran into opposition, which was a really vicious disinformation campaign that propagated the lie that a carbon price was a big fat tax on everything. And these wildly inaccurate numbers were circulated around, you know, what this was going to do to cost of living and, you know, it was sort of going to destroy modern Australia as we knew it, and the Australian way of life. And that disinformation campaign was very potent and, ultimately, that government ended up falling largely on a promise to get rid of the carbon tax. And we never were given the time to actually have the carbon price operate, and people realised that it was insignificant in terms of its impact on daily life but would have done a hell of a lot to help Australia cut its emissions. And we ended up having a lost decade in Australia around climate action because of that disinformation campaign.

David 23:48

One of the things that some research shows is that an effective way of countering disinformation is what they call prebunking, i.e. getting out ahead of it and telling your story.

Nick Reece 24:00

Mm-hmm.

David 24:01

Another, based on really important research, is the importance of storytelling and who tells the story. You know, trusted messengers. Any thoughts on any of that that you’ve seen work or not work against these small but loud purveyors of very strange ideas?

Nick Reece 24:21

Yeah. You need to kind of get out ahead of issues, and you need to explain, explain, explain. There’s a thing called the vomit principle in politics, where you just have to keep telling the story and explaining it and explaining it. And it’s only when you’ve told that story so many times that you’re feeling nauseous

you’re going to throw up if you have to tell it again. It’s only at about that point that the message will be starting to get through to the community that you’re trying to commit. It’s a long way of saying, you know, policy change is hard work. It’s really hard work, and you’ve got to work hard if you’re going to succeed. The second thing you spoke about storytelling, I couldn’t agree with you more. One of the things I have learned over my time in public life is the power of good storytelling, and actually how important it is as a tool in governing. When schools of government and political scientists talk about politics and governing, you know, they tend to talk about budgets and finance and taxes, or they tend to talk about legislative powers and the ability to create laws and regulations. But the art of storytelling, the ability of political leaders and government to own the ‘bully pulpit’ and to be able to tell stories to the communities, is one of the most powerful things that they have. And as I said, the most underestimated and undervalued as well. We see it in cities, you know? We don’t have the budgets of the national government. We don’t have the lawmaking powers of the provincial or state government, but we’ve got all the problems. But we do have that ability to tell stories to our community. And when that community gets behind something, it’s the most powerful thing in the world.

David 26:06

It is amazing, isn’t it?

Nick Reece 26:08

Yes, it absolutely is. So, I try to tell all my councillor colleagues and everyone at the City of Melbourne, I say, “Never underestimate the power of storytelling and the ability to bring people together behind the things we’re working on. This mission that we are all on together. And I tell you, if we can do that, it’s more powerful than anything that any other level of government has got.”

David 26:30

One of the things that I found intriguing about Melbourne is the 2050 vision, which talks to meeting the needs of people. Not just about economic growth, it speaks to, yeah, how do we build community? How do we build community health and well-being, social connection, quality of life within ecological limits? Can you talk about how the city came to have a vision that thinks that way, which is quite different than what you hear from national governments?

Nick Reece 27:04

[melancholic music] Yes. So, after last year’s election in the City of Melbourne—it was pretty hard fought—I was very keen to bring everyone together. And so, you know, I had this idea of holding a grand summit at the Melbourne Town Hall, and so we ended up with about a thousand people all coming together for a whole day to talk about our city. What sort of city did we want to be in the year 2050? What did we want to stand for? What did we want to be famous for the world over? What did we want people to say about us when we talked about our city? What do we want our children to describe our city like in the year 2050? And it turned out to be a really big, beautiful, amazing event for the city. Because, you know, the one thing that united everyone was their love of the city. People from all different walks of life came together. There was, you know, some emotional highs and lows throughout the course of the day. But when we got to the end of it and we put together a communiqué, people really signed on to this vision for a city which was very inclusive, celebrates our diversity as a city. [music ends]

A city that’s famous for its livability, where we humans are at the center.

[fast rhythmic music] You know, it’s we want to be a city for people. That’s what we’re all about. And where that connection, we do everything where we invest in connection between people and quality of life. So yeah, it was a momentous moment for our city.

David 28:38

It’s incredibly powerful and one of the powerful things is you created that moment. And just maybe that’s why the people of Melbourne elected you, Lord Mayor. They knew. They knew. Thanks so much for spending time with us on Cities 1.5 and I’m going to follow closely the progress of all of your work and good luck.

Nick Reece 28:59

Thank you, David. It’s been an absolute pleasure. [music ends]

David 29:04

[slow rhythmic music] As we’ve heard today, it truly is the best of times in the worst of times. We’re living through a period of profound geopolitical turmoil and climate breakdown, the worst of times for our global stability. Yet in the hands of leaders like Mayor Haris Doukas and Lord Mayor Nick Reece, we see the best of times. Radical local innovation to protect both people and planet. Whether it’s Athens tackling energy poverty or Melbourne’s efforts in urban greening, these cities are proving that while national politics may falter, the urban spirit does not, and neither does hope for a better, fairer and safer world. [music continues then ends]

[theme music] In the next episode of Cities 1.5, we’re shifting our gaze to India to reveal the hidden infrastructure that truly keeps urban centers running. We’re joined by the author of a new article in the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy to discuss how the resourcefulness of migrant workers and the vital, often unseen, contributions of women provide an essential foundation of support during climate and economic shocks. By looking at the experience of textile workers in cities like Surat and Tirupur, global cities can learn that true resilience isn’t just about physical walls, but about protecting and empowering the human networks that absorb the weight of a changing world. Join us for this fascinating conversation on how cities can support human potential to build a more inclusive, resilient future for everyone.

This has been Cities 1.5, leading global change through local climate action. I’m David Miller. I was the mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know firsthand the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I’m the editor-in-chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in partnership with the C40 Centre, the thinktank for cities and climate, where I’m also the managing director.

This podcast is produced by Jessica Schmidt and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Peggy Whitfield is our writer and executive producer with narrative and communication support from Chiara Morfeo. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder. The future isn’t waiting and neither are cities. To learn more, visit the show’s website linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [music ends]