Creating ecosystems of climate truth: How can cities defend information integrity?

From fossil fuel lobbying to coordinated political disinformation campaigns, vested interests have built a profitable disinformation infrastructure designed to spread confusion, polarize debate, and exhaust the public. The good news is that the world is waking up. For the first time in the history of the COP, a Declaration on Information Integrity was agreed upon, with governments committing to address climate disinformation and promote accurate, evidence-based information globally.

But we need to go further upstream - instead of simply fighting falsehoods, we need to build ecosystems where truth can take root and flourish. In this episode, we look to Brazil and speak to an individual who was integral in bringing information integrity both to COP and the international agenda. She makes the case for cities as one of the most powerful forces in reclaiming the narrative, building the infrastructure of truth from the ground up - one community at a time.

Featured guest: 

Thais Lazzeri, Investigative Journalist and Founder of FALA

Links:

Declaration on Information Integrity on Climate Change - UNESCO

Integrity Information Observatory - Oii

Mentiro Tem Preco (Lies Have a Price)

Climate Information Integrity

5 Million Acts for Truth - FALA

Tomorrow is today - YouTube (Portuguese)

500 Grams of Life - Thais Lazzeri (Portuguese) 

‘Democracy on the line’: Brazil’s election and the Bolsonaro disinformation ecosystem - Columbia Journalism Review

Environmental and Climatic Disinformation in Northern Brazil: Dynamics and Impact in the Context of COP-30 - Heinrich Boll Stiftung

Environmental journalism and the struggle against disinformation in Brazil - Frontiers in Communication

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website at https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Listen to the Cities 1.5 five-part miniseries “Going Steady with Herman Daly: How to Unbreak the Economy (and the Planet)" here: https://lnk.to/HDMiniSeries

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and the C40 Centre, and is supported by C40 Cities. Sign up to the Centre newsletter: https://thecentre.substack.com/

Writing and executive production by Peggy Whitfield.

Narrative and communications support by Chiara Morfeo.

Produced by Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Music by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

[theme music]

David 00:01

I’m David Miller and you’re listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast exploring how cities are leading global change through local climate action. [music ends]

[fast rhythmic music] How can communication drive meaningful change? And more than that, how do we create the conditions in which that change can actually take root? One of the biggest obstacles derailing climate action today is the information crisis. It pollutes public discourse, and in some places is threatening the very foundations and institutions of democracy itself. The actors behind disinformation campaigns invest a lot of money to spread untruths, polarize debate, and muddy the waters. Their goal is to make everyday people so exhausted that they aren’t able to tell fact from fiction. How do we tackle this problem at its source? What would it take to stop fertilizing the soil for disinformation to spread, and instead cultivate an ecosystem where truth isn’t just protected, but can genuinely flourish? How do we create an environment of information integrity, and what role do cities, mayors, and all of us have to play to make this successful? [music ends]

[rousing music] Countries of the Global North often think that we have all the answers, but perhaps it’s time for some humility instead of hubris, to listen to the voices of the global majority who arguably have more history and experience in tackling this issue. In this episode we head to Brazil, a country that knows how damaging disinformation can be, but as a result can also offer lessons the rest of the world urgently needs to hear. Thais Lazzeri is an investigative journalist and the founder and director of FALA, an impact studio that promotes social change through communication, storytelling, and strategy. Thais has won 14 awards in the fields of human rights and the environment and is the only Brazilian journalist to receive the Stop Slavery Award. She leads projects in Brazil and internationally, including the multi-platform program Lies Have a Price, her documentary film Tomorrow is Today, and her book 500 Grams of Life. At COP30 last year, Thais also played a pivotal role in shifting information integrity towards playing a central role in climate governance in Brazil and beyond. [music ends]

Thais Lazzeri 03:02

[phone rings] [whooshing] Thais Lazzeri, I’m from São Paulo, and I’m director and founder of FALA Impact Studio. [handset clicks]

David 03:12

Thais, welcome to Cities 1.5.

Thais Lazzeri 03:15

Good morning from Brazil. Thank you very much for the invitation. I’m really glad to have this conversation.

David 03:22

Well, we’re thrilled and we’ll get right into it, but I know who you are. Maybe for our listeners you can just introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you do.

Thais Lazzeri 03:32 

I’m a journalist, I’m a documentary filmmaker, and I founded FALA six years ago. FALA is a Brazilian impact studio working globally at the intersection of storytelling and strategy and communication. So, I spent more than 15 years as an investigative journalist in newsrooms and later moved to documentary filmmaker. And at some point, I started questioning myself about, how do we actually use communication not just to inform, but to drive a real change? And that question led me to create FALA. What we do is simple to explain, but complex to execute. So, we design narratives and we build communications engineers to shift behavior, influence systems, and mobilize action with information and transparency.

And along this journey, I created some initiatives. The first one is Mentira Tem Preço in Portuguese, but in English should be Lies Have a Price, to show the high cost of the climate disinformation. And last year I created the Integrity Information Observatory. We call it Oii, it’s “hi” in Portuguese, which is essentially a strategic intelligence infrastructure focused on disinformation and integrity information in the Global South.

David 05:02

I guess oi to you.

Thais Lazzeri 05:04

Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

David 05:06

And welcome. I want to delve right into some of your work, but why did you think it was necessary, or why was it necessary to build Oii to combat disinformation? What climate disinformation specifically? What is it you were seeing that caused you to realize the need to undertake this?

Thais Lazzeri 05:31

At that point, Lies Have a Price it’s a program designed in four pillars. So, we work with integrity information, looking for policies and qualifying the discussion in the international level, national level, and territorial level, so in the city level. We work with media literacy, engagement for climate, and producing knowledge. So, we had, like, almost five years of working, and I realized that we cannot think solutions for what we cannot see. And at that point, we couldn’t see the integrity information problem, as I’ve been calling a supply chain of lies, that works against any kind of action on climate change. So, we designed the observatory to be this space, and not to work alone, but in partnership with communities that weren’t working together. For example, scientists, local communicators, policy makers, countries, and that’s what’s our first call; to mobilize all these actors and show what we couldn’t see at that point, and the supply chain of lies and how that impacts in the international level. How could it impact COP and the Brazilian elections, for example, this year. So, the idea of putting all this knowledge together, and share it. Last year, we achieved more than 1000 subscribers, now we have almost double. And the first product of the observatory is a free newsletter in Portuguese and English. So, the idea of putting all these actors together, and now we have more than 500 partnerships at the observatory, and sharing knowledge so others can use it on their daily actions, or to build, for example, public policies for integrity information.

David 07:26

So interesting to me, your phrase “the supply chain of lies”. Can you talk a little bit more about what that supply chain of lies looks like, what it is, and how you can combat that by focusing on information integrity?

Thais Lazzeri 07:45

When we started the Lies Have a Price program, we started it in a state here in Brazil, and then the program went, like, nationally, and then internationally. And what I realized is that we had this new kind of supply chain-- a new kind of supply chain of our era, where people pay for lies. And we are talking about supply chains, and this is something that generally in journalism we talk about all the actors involved in that process, and their responsibilities, and what they do. And today, we don’t have any kind of supply chain looking for lies. And with the idea of creating something like that, we just designed this dossier on integrity information and climate that we launched during COP30, showing how the supply chain works. It’s available on Amazon.

David 08:44

It’s called Climate Information Integrity: How to Act Now to Ensure the Success of the Climate Agenda. A textbook on how to address this.

Thais Lazzeri 08:55

The idea of, who funds the lies? So, we need to look for these actors. Who distribute the lies? And, of course, we are talking about the platforms. So, you have all this complex new kind of supply chain, and there is no information about it. And generally, when you’re thinking about it, you’re thinking about just a piece of that. But you need to look for the entire system in order to find solutions for it. So, that’s why I started calling it a new kind of supply chain. Integrity information is the assurance that any data, any content are accurate, consistent and reliable, authenticated through the entire lifecycle, from the creation to the distribution. And the concept is crucial on combating disinformation because integrity information is the solution. Definitely the solution agenda. The difference between integrity information and disinformation is disinformation is any kind of story created with the purpose to deceive people. So, this is something, like, really key to understand, because it’s not something that pops on your smartphone. Something was designed, and has a purpose.

David 10:12

[slow rhythmic music] I think some people will be astonished that you can buy lies. That there’s a supply chain out there in which you can actually buy lies. Can you just talk about what that looks like?

Thais Lazzeri 10:28

Yeah, of course. Because when you’re talking about the platforms, we have a succinct economic model. So, the model is on publicity; the idea of selling your products, your ideas. Last year, the money for publicity crossed one trillion dollars. 73% went directly to the platforms. So, this is the business model. And everything that works inside the platform works for-- to keep growing this business. [music ends]

And when you look at the research on disinformation, there is one from MIT that shows us that lies spreads at least 70% faster than truth, because we don’t know anything about how the algorithm works. So, definitely we have this big scenario, and you have, like, actors that can pay public to share disinformation. Or you can have influencers, religious leaderships, fake journalists, programs created with the idea of sharing lies. Just websites that share disinformation, they earn every year more than two billion dollars to share fake news.

David 11:45

Wow!

Thais Lazzeri 11:46

So, this is not something, like, small. This is not something that, “Oh, it appeared on my phone. I received the information on social media.” This is a business model. And in order to find solutions, we need to see the business model and think, “How can we think solutions together?” And for me, this first idea of recognizing that we have a problem and that together we are able to find solutions, this is key. Because generally we have a lot of disinformation and polarization and after some time you feel like, “Oh, I’m so tired of this. Let’s keep going.” Or, “If I move this way, I’m going to lose money.” Or, “There is no solution.” But definitely we have solutions. And as we were mentioning, COP30 was for the very first time in the history of COPs, we had integrity information in the official agenda of COP. And this announcement happened in our summit that we did in the beginning of the year, putting together more than 100 people from United Nations, UNESCO, Brazilian government, investors, indigenous leaderships, local communicators, scientists, researchers. Because with the idea, “If we recognize that we are a community, we can seek solutions as a community.” And definitely that happened, this feeling of being part of a big movement, but we-- the Brazilian government announced during the summit that they would add integrity information in the agenda. So yeah, definitely we had, like, a huge achievement and we contributed to that, but I’m always saying, “Okay, what is the next move?” Because we need to do a lot of things in order, you know, to put integrity information in every agenda.

David 13:36

Well, of course, I’m going to have to ask you, “What is the next move?” But I want to come to that in a minute. What’s the importance of narrative?

Thais Lazzeri 13:43

Yeah, of course. I wouldn’t say narrative, I would start looking for the information ecosystem. When you look at the information ecosystem, you have a lot of actors that are engaged on producing, distributing, creating and making money with lies. And why? Because they get paid. You know, you have money, you have political power and economic one. Definitely the first thing we need to understand is we don’t have an ecosystem of truth, because it doesn’t operate like that. Then we can think about the narratives.

Generally, when you’re talking about climate disinformation, we have the idea of, “Oh, we need more fact checking.” Fact checking is important, but definitely it’s not going to resonate with the audience that think that what you’re saying is a lie.

David 14:34

Of course, the whole system is created to avoid fact checking. And it’s-- you know, as we’ve explored on other issues of the podcast, it’s not very effective to reply to feelings and narrative with a fact.

Thais Lazzeri 14:48

And then you have the investors. And what I call investors is, like, someone you trust. And that person-- if that person shares lies with you, you’re going to trust. When you’re talking about journalism, this is something, like, in the beginning we learn, “If you lie, you get fired.” So, that’s it. You can’t, you know? This is something, like, the beginning of the story. But now we have more people. So, we have social media, they promise, “Oh, we are going to see our friends, we are going to learn things, and we are going to share ideas.” At the end, we are tired. We are alone. There’s a lot of polarization and disinformation.

And there is another layer, what people understand as information. For example, there is a research showing that people don’t see messages that they get from WhatsApp as information. It’s like a new kind of letter of our time, you know. You wrote a letter and you delivered it. So, this is something like that. Someone you trust, you know, shares something with you. It’s not an information, something else. So, after we discuss all of these things, we need to look for the narrative. Otherwise, the narrative is going to fail in the social media. And definitely we need to work more on that, because generally we say, “Oh, this is not true. This is not true. This is not true.” We didn’t start early thinking, “What do you understand by climate? What is the impact on their life?”

[soft ambient music] Because, for example, when you have extreme events, generally you don’t say climate change. We’re talking about agribusiness being impacted to the lack of rain. We don’t talk about climate change, and we want people to defend and act for climate. It’s not going to happen. You need to talk about climate change in a way people can understand it, but not something that you have the information and that person is going to receive it. How can we co-create a new understanding about climate that reflects on your daily lives? So, this is something vitally important. [music ends]

Peggy 16:55

[theme music] This episode of Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press, with generous support from C40 Cities.

Jess 17:05

Want more access to current research on how city leaders are approaching climate action? We also publish the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy.

Peggy 17:14

Our mission is to publish timely, evidence-based research that contributes to the urban climate agenda and supports governmental policy towards an equitable and resilient world.

Jess 17:25

The journal serves as a platform for dynamic content that highlights ambitious, near-term climate action, with a particular focus on human-centered solutions to today’s most pressing climate challenges.

Peggy 17:36

To read the latest issue, visit jccpe.utpjournals.press or click on the link in our show notes. [music ends]

David 17:45

I love your expression, “We need an ecosystem of truth.”

Thais Lazzeri 17:48

Yeah.

David 17:4

It’s just so interesting there’s a supply chain of lies, we need an ecosystem of truth. Brazil has been almost a laboratory to study how this supply chain of lies and the disinformation ecosystem attacks information integrity. Can you speak to what you’ve seen in Brazil that maybe the rest of the world hasn’t fully reckoned with yet?

Thais Lazzeri 18:17

I think Brazil has been experiencing in a very accelerated way what happens when information systems start to collapse. So, we are one of the nations that have more people connected in social media, and getting information through social media, as I was telling the example of elections. They are all connected together.

So, what we have seen through the observatory, so coordinating disinformation campaigns, of course, during COP, other big announcements, or when you have extreme events, we see attacks on institutions and the ones that work with climate. So, if you work on housing and definitely you need to address climate, you’re going to be a target. If you work on climate justice with indigenous communities or faith communities, you’re going to be a target and not the solution. And last but not least, the erosion of trust in both people and process. So, this is the scenario. And it’s not a Brazilian scenario; it’s a global scenario. This connects us directly to our everyday life. Because when people don’t understand the origins of climate change, or they believe that we have more time or the solutions are not good, or you can believe in the ones that are leading that, what we are going to think-- because generally we use “they”, but actually it’s “us”. So, we are not going to think about a public policy for climate or government plans or collective solutions, so it enables us to move.

I keep saying that disinformation and misinformation because in Portuguese we have just one word, it’s disinformation, but in English we have two. Disinformation and misinformation, they just distort reality. It disconnects people from the very systems designed to protect them. At the same time, Brazil is not just a place where this is happening, but a place where solutions are being developed. We had the Brazilian government launch with UNESCO, United Nations, a global initiative on climate integrity information. We have more than 20 countries that joined the initiative. And what is the idea? Like simple, we need to build trust, and we need to defend truth. How every government is going to act in order to do both things. We are part of the Brazilian chapter that was launched last year, and we’ve been creating data, e-strategies, and knowledge about it, so other countries can find a way to develop their own initiatives to protect the truth.

David 21:01

Is there a difference in thinking between Global North thinking about how to deal with information integrity and the lessons you’ve learned from Brazil? And if so, what gets missed when the perspective is from-- driven by a Global North perspective?

Thais Lazzeri 21:21

For every space, we have a reality for the climate information. What we have in common, disinformation works against any climate action. In Brazil, we have disinformation focused on some sectors, for example, part of the agribusiness sector. But globally, we need to look for oil companies. Of course, we have the same situation here in Brazil, but the situation is a little bit different. So, we need to look for the-- both scenarios in order to find solutions for it.

But actually, the way is the same for every country. Of course, we are going to adapt it, but every country needs to think about the impact of disinformation and how it’s going to impact people’s lives, because at the end, this is going to happen.

David 22:11

[whimsical music] So, what’s next? What’s next for you? What’s next for the global campaign to ensure there is information integrity, particularly on climate?

Thais Lazzeri 22:20

Yeah. For me, I’m not saying the milestone is not important, but as someone that works with it, like I work with environmental issues and democracy and human rights for more than 20 years now, I always ask the same question, “What comes after a big announcement?” Because progress is not defined by moments, it’s defined by what happens next and what we are able to sustain. [music ends]

Generally, we fail to sustain the conversations, and that’s where our work continues. So, we can think about what we are going to do in Brazil in a special year that we need to deliver all the discussions, projects and the next COP, but also in an election year. What all the countries that joined the global initiative are going to do in order to protect truth? So, you have so many layers and we need to, you know, work together in order to achieve all these goals together.

In the beginning of this month, we launched a campaign called 5 Million Acts for Truth, looking at the lessons from COP and how those lessons translate into our electoral process. So, everything we learned last year, we shared in a document telling, “Oh, these are the 18 lessons we learned from the COP, and now we need to look for this in order to achieve the next ones.” Because it’s not abstract for us. This is our daily work here, because we operate in an impacted logic, you know. Always asking what our next step is, what needs to be delivered, who we need to work with, who we need to mobilize and how we can work together. So, for Brazil, this means focus on continuity. The country now has a full cycle to deliver concrete progress leading into the next COP. It also means looking at the Global South more broadly and why. Because today only a limited number of countries are actively engaged in the global initiative on integrity information launched by the Brazilian government, UNESCO and the United Nations.

And this definitely is one of our priorities, is helping strengthen that network across Latin America and make sure that information integrity is discussed in ways that are actually relevant to local realities. Because at the end, we are talking about something, like, so difficult to see, to understand, but it’s only our-- it’s on our daily lives.

David 25:05

It’s a problem you have to fight every day.

Thais Lazzeri 25:07

Yeah.

David 25:08

You’ve been looking at this in depth, in a very thoughtful way, right at the heart of it. Why do you keep doing your work and what gives you hope?

Thais Lazzeri 25:16

I’m a realist and optimist. I’m a believer. If we look back what we achieved in just five years, this is huge. And why did everything happen? Because everyone that was part of this ecosystem understood the issues, understood that we need to act and act together. So, for me, this is something, like, big; working together, co-creating together. But at the end, and I do believe in that, that if we build trust and start talking with people that don’t agree with us, we can make a huge, huge movement in our daily lives. I gave so many workshops and trainings last year for grassroots organizations and for governments. And there is-- at some point, someone tells me, “Oh, my God! So, I don’t need to fight with my mother,” for example, “Or someone from my family that doesn’t believe in climate change?” And I said, “No, you don’t. You shouldn’t. Why? Because that person believes because someone told her. She’s a victim. If you need to fight for and you need to call for answers and solutions, you need to look for the supply chain. That’s the place we need to move.” “But, okay, what can I do with-- in the city level or inside my family?” “Build a trust. Be someone that can listen carefully and try to understand how that disinformation is connected with some other layers.”

Thinking about hope, I do believe that hope is key. And two years ago, I created a humor show to combat climate information on YouTube. It was a fake program, telling truth, combating fake news, and we achieved 1.5 million views organically in five months. And we saw something that, for me, was unexpected. Like many people said, “Oh! Now I understand what is climate change.” Or, “Now I need to-- that I need to check the information I receive on my phone.” So, it was, like, five minutes every Sunday, humor show to combat climate disinformation. And people were like, “Okay, we are part of this community.” And so good that there is other ways to engage and building completely different narratives that are going to impact and change behavior and make us reflect, you know. Because, yeah, at the end, we need hope. I’m a mother. My daughter is 11 years old. I want to deliver a better world for her. We need to deliver hope. But generally, when you’re talking about climate change, we don’t talk about hope.

David 28:06

Thais, beautifully put. And we should talk about hope and some great lessons in this conversation for cities and the mayors that lead them. Identify the supply chain of lies, build trust, use different messengers, and most of all, go find Thais and speak to her and get her a voice.

Thais Lazzeri 28:26

[slow rhythmic music] At the end, integrity information is about governance. It’s not something new for mayors, you know. You need to have a clear commitment to not amplifying disinformation or misinformation, actively open data and communication clearly with the public through the social media and through TV, because they are being formed by all this new media. And if you are not there, you’re going to lose them. For what? For fake news. If you show up only during crisis or make isolated announcements, you are leaving space for misinformation to defend the narrative. [music ends]

And this is something, like, really key, you know. Take every opportunity to fight disinformation. We talk about what is disinformation and misinformation, but at the end it’s about breaking trust between institutions and people. Cities are where all this becomes real. For example, at a city level, people actually experience climate change in their daily lives, not just during extreme events. So, I do believe that good narratives, leadership, means having a clear communication strategy, have a plan for engagement, knowing how to connect climate to people’s everyday lives, realities, and thinking about what you can do tomorrow.

[soft ambient music] Everyone counts. What you can do today to stop climate disinformation in your school, in your home, in your work. We have now more ways to communicate, you know. And one of the things for me that is really important is talking about climate not only when you have a disaster. We can address, you know, climate in a good way, how it impacts our lives.

David 30:15

Brilliant way to finish. Thank you so much, Thais, for this fantastic interview, and thanks for your note of hope as well.

Thais Lazzeri 30:21

Thank you very much. [music ends]

David 30:25

[soft ambient music] Cities have always been where ideas spread fastest. The question is whether we use that power deliberately in service of the facts. Because disrupting the supply chain of lies isn’t only the work of journalists and activists. It begins at the local level with leaders who understand that building an infrastructure of truth is as essential to their city’s future as any school, bike path or flood defense. Mayors and city leaders are closer to their residents than any national government. They have the ability to act as genuine, honest custodians of public trust. They can champion media literacy, amplify accurate climate narratives and create the civic infrastructure that makes truth easier to access than lies. [music ends]

[theme music] In the next episode, we’ll be joined by Eric Garcetti, the current Ambassador for Global Climate Diplomacy at C40, the former C40 chair and mayor of Los Angeles, to discuss his trailblazing work decarbonizing our ports and shipping lanes. You won’t want to miss it.

This has been Cities 1.5, leading global change through local climate action. I’m David Miller. I was the mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know firsthand the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I’m the editor-in-chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in partnership with the C40 Centre, the thinktank for cities and climate, where I’m also the managing director.

This podcast is produced by Jessica Schmidt and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Peggy Whitfield is our writer and executive producer with narrative and communication support from Chiara Morfeo. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder. The future isn’t waiting and neither are cities. To learn more, visit the show’s website linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [music ends]