The Magic of Personal and Collective Emergence

Coherence is the latent spiritual, creative, and transformative energy that naturally awakens in the process of living in integrity with our deepest values, highest purpose, and unique gifts.

And that’s the basis of my psychospiritual model, Coherence Theory. 

When I began to identify the principles of emergence, it was completely life-changing. After a lifetime of seeking the newest psychological techniques and spiritual practices I thought would “save me,” I began to see that these practices, while powerful, did not produce deep and sustaining transformation without being grounded in a set of principles.

It wasn’t until I began to live in accordance with these principles that I could experience a shift in my consciousness that infused my everyday experience in the deep and lasting way I had always longed for. 

And now I’m finally ready to share this breakthrough model with others. 

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

0:21

[Music] hello and welcome to on living with 

0:24

brook sprawl i'm brooke sproul i'm the founder and clinical director of my la 

0:28

therapy and my truest north and today we have my lovely co-facilitator 

0:34

and uh burgeoning friend jamaica stevens here joining us i am so 

0:40

just grateful for our collaboration and really excited to see what emerges in 

0:45

this conversation would you uh would you go ahead and introduce yourself 

0:50

thank you so much brooke it's an honor to be here yeah i'm janika stevens um 

0:54

i'm co-founder and ceo for open future coalition 

0:59

but i've also been a long time event producer convener a facilitator i've 

1:03

been trained in the way of council so i've done a lot of work around 

1:06

communities and council and sort of social governance and circular 

1:10

leadership and just bringing people together in thoughtful ways 

1:15

that's my passion is is creating containers for true transformation and 

1:19

also i'm a storyteller i'm an author of a book called re-inhabiting the village 

1:22

co-creating our future which is simply a platform to bring together stories about 

1:27

how we revillage ourselves 

1:30

how we function in this sort of modern context with the intact ethics of 

1:34

village and a lot of my work has spanned how do we design and then live within 

1:39

regenerative cultures and how do we sort of apply that across 

1:43

communities of purpose practice and place but also our own individual 

1:47

journeys and then how does that individual you know to interpersonal to 

1:51

communal coherence impact how we show up in the world and the work we do is part 

1:55

of a collective so a lot of my work right now 

1:59

in the last few years has been stemmed on living systems 

2:03

and how we integrate the patterns and processes of the living world around us 

2:07

to heal 

2:08

our relationship with the earth and then from that place of integration again how 

2:13

do we look to systems and community change and personal change uh from a 

2:18

more integrated healed place with the living world 

2:22

yeah this is where work has such wonderful kind of synergy and 

2:26

synchronicity is that you know we're both looking at individual to collective 

2:31

transformation um and we both have experience in some ways on both sides 

2:35

but you have just such rich expertise on the kind of collective change 

2:40

transformation part and i have you know very deep knowledge and training on the 

2:44

individual component and but we've both been kind of trying to 

2:47

look at and map out this problem and and make the connection from individual to 

2:53

societal and collective uh but coming at it from different ends in a way um 

2:57

and so i'm just so excited to continue our 

3:01

uh exploration and another thing i wanted to share is i don't think you 

3:05

know this but another area of synchronicity is that i am also a 

3:08

storyteller um i am really into the mop and 

3:14

um and so i actually one of the things i was wondering if we would want to do on 

3:18

our retreat is have some kind of a storytelling 

3:21

um you know bonfire or or some kind of uh tribal council i wanted to hear more 

3:27

about what it what do you mean by circular leadership tell us about that 

3:31

yeah you know um i have a background chained in the way of counsel 

3:35

and uh both as you know a facilitator of that space but also a student of that 

3:39

space this 

3:41

approach to sort of creating circle the pattern of circling and 

3:46

communal relationships and kind of activating the 

3:50

genius of each present member it's for me a part of 

3:54

that bridging what we each are here to bring what what what each of our 

3:58

capacities are and almost like what each of our gift is that like if we don't 

4:02

bring that thing to a circle or to the world or to a project or to community 

4:07

then that thing goes missing because i inherently believe we each are imbued 

4:11

with a with a gift to bring and so i love that with the way of counsel and 

4:16

sort of creating circular leadership that we're providing the opportunity to 

4:19

create a container to invite participation and bringing that gift and 

4:24

like bringing each part of the puzzle together 

4:27

in any particular container circle community you know onwards but i 

4:31

appreciate that what it is is allowing the circularity of moving the energy and 

4:35

the kind of concentrations of power between 

4:40

the space and instead of it sort of being like the way we have hierarchical 

4:44

power and leadership and the way you know charismatic leader syndrome that 

4:49

actually allows and invites each person to keep adjusting to the 

4:53

interrelationality of the circle itself to know like people like me and probably 

4:58

like you that like i'm a natural-born leader my work then is to know how to 

5:02

like sit back and refine and invite and allow space and then people who are like 

5:08

maybe in a circle who bringing their gift takes a minute or it takes 

5:12

cultivation how they then have to like almost step in and like breathe into and 

5:17

when you create circular leadership in containers like that true council 

5:21

the energy just starts to move and you you went to it and understand like okay 

5:25

i have something to bring okay now step back oh it's i think you have some okay 

5:29

right bring that in and it becomes this living relationship that's just 

5:32

accessing each other's gifts and genius and then from there whether it's just to 

5:36

do that because it's a wonderful beautiful practice of relationship 

5:39

building or setting a project or initiative or purpose at the center 

5:44

now you have the best of everybody's presence and gift 

5:48

activated in a circle to all contribute to like the thing at the center like the 

5:52

reason that that is the thing that becomes 

5:56

why we're all here together in the first place and that's such a perfect way of 

6:00

speaking about emergence which is you know so much the foundation of our 

6:04

conversations and the model that we're using um you know to to frame our 

6:08

retreat as a as a road map um this idea that when the conditions are set in 

6:14

integrity in coherence and balance and fullness that these kind of emergent 

6:19

magical states arise organically and naturally and i think you did a 

6:23

beautiful job describing how that happens in that particular container but 

6:28

i don't think it's unique to that container i think it spans across 

6:30

different areas of our lives is kind of understanding what are the 

6:34

conditions that create transformation naturally and with ease without effort 

6:39

that just when we set these conditions and this container appropriately the 

6:44

emergence just occurs it's not effortful in the way 

6:48

that you know we often think about needing to sort of force things to 

6:52

happen um they're the natural outcome what's so 

6:56

juicy about that brooke is that that is a direct sort of 

7:01

modeling of integrating ourselves as part of a living system like the the 

7:05

patterns the universal principles of emergence and self-organizing as an 

7:09

example that it's all about container and context and that each species and an 

7:14

ecosystem has its container in its context it's sort of imbued with you 

7:18

know i'm a tree i'm a microarrizal function i'm a moss you know i'm a i'm 

7:23

the water uh but when then brought all together and each one playing its part 

7:28

and understanding the context of what its gift is uh no nobody's wrangling the 

7:34

the living world to try to get everybody to like do anything it's this natural 

7:40

arising of the most natural imbued purpose of that particular living being 

7:45

that then when brought together is what creates the symphony of this incredible 

7:49

world we live in the ecosystem the flourishing the dynamism of these like 

7:52

living systems and so it's it's so beautiful that it's just such a natural 

7:57

shift to go oh we're actually already a part of that 

8:00

and if we look around us or even look at our own body and how our body 

8:03

orchestrates multiple cells and how you know organs and how it all works 

8:07

together what's our part to play as that cell or 

8:11

that part of an ecosystem and how do i work with you 

8:15

uh to complement you and you complement me and we're in this mutual reciprocity 

8:19

of bringing our gift and it's so beautiful how that's such an easy shift 

8:25

actually to oh that's how the living world works and whatever dominance of 

8:30

power and like governing and like all these power structures we're all trying 

8:33

to you know many of us are trying to dismantle and like create more justice 

8:37

and more synergy and loving kindness and cooperation it's almost like such an 

8:41

easel shift when you're aligning with the way the world works to 

8:46

just say look yeah let's cooperate you have a gift i have a gift like share 

8:49

versus compete let's i want to see what you have to bring i want to hear your 

8:53

voice and flourish with you because then we're both going to flourish together so 

8:57

i love bringing that into human context and how we can create that together 

9:02

yeah something i'm really grappling with myself is 

9:06

kind of and been grappling with for a while around these hierarchical systems 

9:11

that i i've just internalized so deeply that this is the way we do things and my 

9:15

experience has been that when i try to do things from that framework of 

9:19

thinking i have to do it it's so much more effortful it's so much more 

9:22

stressful it's so much less effective people aren't as energized like it's bad 

9:27

business even if you're just talking about incentives from some kind of like 

9:30

greedy you know like uh 

9:33

perspective it's actually bad business to be operating in these oppressive 

9:39

structures and so it's something i'm really having to kind of reckon with in 

9:42

my own you know individual life and organization is how do i create more 

9:47

empowerment culture because not everyone and like how do like what kinds of 

9:51

containers and structures do we create and that's why i'm actually really 

9:54

excited to be working with you because i know that the work that you do is really 

9:57

centered around this and it's something that i'm struggling with and needing 

10:00

some guidance on so i'm probably going to have to hire you as a consultant 

10:05

as well you know 

10:08

authenticity to anyone listening you know i think we're all learning i think 

10:12

every single one of us has to do this sort of decolonizing of our own 

10:16

experience and our own patterns and and our and uncovering our own biases 

10:22

because we're embedded in a system that's been perpetuated for so long how 

10:25

can you not be it's almost like just distincting ourselves from like the 

10:30

water we swim in and the actual like fish that we are a creature we are and i 

10:34

really respect that each one of us has to do that work individually before we 

10:38

can even start tackling it collectively and i know something between you and i 

10:42

is like we're all learning i constantly am being 

10:45

confronted with the places where i still like oh there that is again that pattern 

10:50

of hustle or uh you know needing to control things or 

10:54

feeling responsible for certain things or like whatever those things are we are 

10:58

working with what i respect is the authenticity and humility to go every 

11:02

single one of us has this work to do but i do feel and i 

11:06

do feel like we're stronger when we do it together when we're allies in that 

11:10

work when we're compassionate but also fierce mirrors to those blind spots to 

11:15

help us keep dismantling and re-aligning and reorienting to a more 

11:20

like life-affirming cooperative just way of 

11:25

not only viewing the world which has to come first but then operating and 

11:28

aligning with that view of a world that is like recognizing these patterns that 

11:33

we're all entrenched in you know yeah and i think it's 

11:37

i'm in it with you thank you thank you 

11:40

yeah and i think it's it's a mirror of the individual version of it is 

11:45

you know we all have our versions of internalized oppression within our 

11:49

households like we have you know and i think people talk about 

11:53

abuse as binary you were abused or you weren't abused abuse is a spectrum like 

11:57

we all behave in ways and are the recipients of abusive forms of 

12:01

communication forms that are coercive and um and meant to be you know shaming 

12:07

or harm or in some ways controlling um criticism coercion control those are 

12:12

kind of like the three c's for me of abuse and so we're all sort of 

12:18

we have these normative ways of relating that are abusive like in our culture 

12:23

criticism is normal control is normal coercion is normal and so 

12:28

we don't see it when it's mapped onto the larger systems because it's 

12:32

normalized even in our own households in so many ways and so i think again this 

12:36

is where i just love speaking with you because i have so much to learn about 

12:41

the sort of collective social change piece and i really care about that stuff 

12:45

and as i dismantle my own kind of internal oppression i begin to 

12:51

have this i'm beginning to have this awakening around wait i've cared about 

12:55

social change my entire life i have this deep heart and soul for wanting to help 

12:59

and change the world and help people who are disenfranchised but i have been 

13:03

programmed to believe that it's not possible and i've been programmed to 

13:06

believe that um i can't do anything like i can't i 

13:09

can't do anything no one can do anything and this is just the way it is and 

13:13

actually it's supposed to be this way because and there's all this you know 

13:18

there's all this propaganda around you know framing this as though it's the 

13:21

natural order like you know hierarchies and dominance and competition it's like 

13:26

no there's a whole other way to frame it if we wanted to but i think that people 

13:32

with an interest in preserving the systems 

13:34

you know want to frame it in in that former way 

13:38

so that we can keep the collective agreements that preserve power 

13:42

right and this is all new to me so i feel actually a little remiss speaking 

13:45

about it because it's it's it's a relatively new thing so so i'm not sure 

13:50

that i can fully kind of articulate what i'm 

13:54

trying to express but i think i think it's like 

13:58

important conversations to be had right i think that again it'd be hubris to be 

14:03

like oh i know this path i think it's authentic 

14:06

to say this is my journey with it this is our journey with it and then you and 

14:10

i as space holders and facilitators to create a container 

14:14

that's loving and clear and held but that 

14:18

allows for the safety to explore where our own internal constructs and 

14:23

biases and and training and you know both personal our familial story our you 

14:29

know immediate culture and then our larger collective it is about 

14:32

sort of dismantling and understanding and seeing and exploring and asking and 

14:36

naming before we can even change or do it's almost like you can't do from the 

14:41

same mindset you know as many versions of that quote you can look at but you 

14:44

can't change or make shift or do from the same mindset that created the same 

14:48

issues you have to first unravel dismantle you know and change the 

14:52

mindset and then approach okay now how would i start applying this foreign body 

14:56

and i know that's such a big part of the work you do and what was so attractive 

15:00

between you and i about the work we saw we could do together i will just say 

15:04

this one piece because it's so relevant for anybody who hasn't um 

15:08

read the web of meaning by jeremy lent has been blowing my mind as a geek about 

15:13

living systems and the nature of the relationship of nature to us um but he 

15:18

does such a gorgeous job of really showing how 

15:21

like uh you know the cartesian mindset and these thought leaders and these 

15:27

influencers and you know you know 

15:30

people with agenda at very specific times in history 

15:33

actively promoted the narrative of binary and actively promoted the 

15:37

separation of the human from the spirit and actually promoted the separation of 

15:41

human from nature and it's like you can't even 

15:44

begin to notice this until i think we do enough understanding of where this was 

15:48

systematically placed in the first place but recognize that it is a uh 

15:54

an overlay of what and this is my main point of 

15:57

what the most the framework mechanical alignment that we already were born 

16:01

right into yeah the most natural thing is the integration of our animate selfie 

16:07

animate mystical intelligent part of us that's still very much intact but is 

16:11

almost like subverted suppressed and forgotten but it's not like you don't 

16:16

have that we have that but we strong armed and cultivated the more rational 

16:22

goal-oriented linguistic control power aspect okay fine so we've done the heavy 

16:26

lifting on that for too long it's almost like it's reached the apex where clearly 

16:30

it's in balance but there's this not only sort of conceptual 

16:34

out there somewhere in culture shifting it's a personal journey to reintegrate 

16:39

these parts of self and strengthen and bolster 

16:43

getting in touch with that animate intelligent intuitive 

16:47

like part of a living world self that when we strengthen and spend time 

16:52

cultivating and practicing and being in a relationship with now starts to come 

16:56

in to help guide and inform our transformation with this more sort of 

17:00

dominator paradigm or more you know logistical linear paradigm 

17:04

that we're all sort of realizing has to get dismantled so i'll just leave it at 

17:08

that and see if we have to say about that brick but 

17:11

oh there's actually an evolution happening we haven't stopped evolving as 

17:16

the human species the next evolution is integration of all of this complexity 

17:22

and everything we've you know that's a beautiful part about humanity but has 

17:26

been too dominated and not in balance so great let's 

17:29

strengthen and bring back into balance these parts of self and wow what kind of 

17:32

human do we become 

17:34

reintegrated as part of the world with all of this innovation and technology 

17:38

you know all the things we love about being really smart species you know i'm 

17:42

putting air quotes around that yeah well it lit me up to hear you speak about all 

17:46

that because a lot of my personal kind of 

17:49

awakening around so many of these things and my reconnection to my own 

17:53

spirituality because i'll share that i i was raised very 

17:57

fundamental as christian and and there was something very authentic about my 

18:01

spirituality that i experienced in that culture but then there was also all of 

18:04

this violence and oppression and these systems that were extremely 

18:09

like not only disempowering but desolate i 

18:12

mean they really taught like my the way that i internalized the lessons that i 

18:16

learned was um 

18:19

you know don't trust yourself trust what the bible says so there was this i had 

18:23

this strong intuitive knowing in my body and in my soul that i continuously kind 

18:29

of suppressed denied and and saw as wrong and and errant to listen to and so 

18:36

part of my personal kind of re-awakening and reconnection with my own 

18:40

spirituality has been you know how do i find a non-dogmatic way to connect with 

18:46

my unders one understanding of spirit my experience of spirit my experience of 

18:51

the living world as really in conversation because in peak experiences 

18:57

and sort of altered states you have these rich 

19:00

uh encounters with the kind of consciousness that you don't ordinarily 

19:04

experience and you have a sense in them for those who've experienced it that 

19:08

there's something more real about that than the ordinary sort of in the matrix 

19:13

consciousness you're like oh i'm out of the matrix now the matrix is the dream 

19:17

this is the real thing and you have this experience but then if you don't know 

19:21

how to carry it into your everyday life then you kind of go back to sleep and 

19:25

you the frame changes and no no that was just i was just altered and what i'm 

19:29

finding and discovering and one piece of this is through these principles that 

19:33

i've developed through emergence theory of what are the principles that ground 

19:36

the practices that actually allow me to iteratively 

19:40

be in the world in a more awakened way so there's that piece but the other 

19:44

piece for me that allowed me to actually uncover a lot of that was through the 

19:49

work of john vervicky who i'll be interviewing on the podcast uh in the 

19:52

next few weeks he's a personal hero of mine he's a cognitive science professor 

19:56

uh brilliant man and uh he talked a lot about how he has a series on youtube 

20:01

called awakening from the meaning crisis in which he kind of goes through the um 

20:06

history of how we've created this constructivist 

20:11

idea of as you say um 

20:14

what was it it's uh hmm i'm forgetting the 

20:18

as nature versus in nature like self and nature versus self as nature sort of 

20:22

this this binary cartesian idea that we are disembodied selves 

20:27

in you know cut off consciousness in a bot like placed in this body that 

20:32

oh our bodies are also separate right like not just our minds and our bodies 

20:36

are separate from the world but our bodies and minds are also separate and 

20:40

of course there's a way that we can infinitely dissect things but there's 

20:43

also a way in which you can't dissect anything and that's you know brings me 

20:46

back to the work of ken wilbur and no boundaries which is a really incredible 

20:50

you know work as well but in any case my my point is that i think it's helpful 

20:54

for people to understand that this way of being in the world is actually a 

20:59

frame that we've been indoctrinated into and we're not seeing it because we're 

21:03

seeing through it and as a result of that 

21:07

not seeing it seeing through it we're not aware that there is an alternative 

21:12

and so to understand how this is not actually a universal experience this is 

21:16

actually a very modern phenomenon and it's not because ancient people were 

21:20

idiots and naive and just didn't have science 

21:23

not bad at all and that's like the idea oh those people 

21:27

were primitive it's like no that's a that's that's so facile to believe that 

21:31

so when we understand that this is actually an indoctrination then we can 

21:34

be empowered to make choices about how we want to live in the world and as you 

21:38

say you know reacquainting ourselves with the world is the most natural 

21:41

resting place and it's something that i'm just 

21:44

feeling just i don't know just overwhelmed by the fact that i'm meeting 

21:48

more and more people who are re-entering this kind of consciousness reclaiming 

21:53

their spiritual presence and spiritual non-dogmatic spiritual reality in 

21:58

relationship to the world it's just it's so heartening to me because at times i i 

22:03

became so nihilistic and and so really um 

22:09

i don't know i mean like there's this idea of everything being meaning feeling 

22:12

meaningless when you have that framework and so i'm just really grateful that 

22:17

that we're able to normalize 

22:20

this this new kind of spiritual consciousness that's emerging 

22:25

gosh so rich brook yeah i know that um 

22:29

you know i think that that's such an essential part of of the work i keep 

22:34

thinking of like jack kornfield's work like after the ecstasy the laundry 

22:36

laundry i just recommended that to someone last week 

22:40

and it's so true it's the like the cleansing pro that you know the work 

22:44

that happens after you have these sort of okay i have this epiphany the door of 

22:48

perception has lifted but now what like how do i integrate that both in my life 

22:52

as a person you know in my familial context or community but then you know 

22:57

as part of this larger rite of passage that i genuinely believe we 

23:01

you know on a personal experience having a collective rite of passage and without 

23:06

many of us that have cultures of rites of passage and understand that 

23:10

iterative process of like the life death life cycle that happens in short cycles 

23:15

every day every breath and in these large epochs of change um without that 

23:20

context i do think that so many people have been sort of thrown 

23:24

into the liminal without orientation or context and the liminal for me is that 

23:29

space between what's been and what we're all moving towards together it's not 

23:33

defined and so it's being created by our choices by our actions by our behaviors 

23:38

but it's based on the context of what we experience so i'm watching this sort of 

23:43

space in between we know that the world that was is 

23:47

changing and that's creating this existential crisis for so many people 

23:51

because there's no mooring to the world that was 

23:54

um and the world that we're moving towards is not 

23:57

determined and it's a knife's edge if it could be 

24:00

a radical reimagining of a world that um you know 

24:05

is more beautiful and just and whole and and liberated or it can be a world 

24:10

that's more dominant and goes further and trans down this cycle and i want to 

24:14

honor a friend of mine whose book will be coming out soon around radically 

24:18

imagining um uh her name is naima light 

24:22

lightweaver but um you know 

24:24

that process of deciding how we want to determine this 

24:29

next experience of humanity is personal it is collective we do feel 

24:35

apathetic we feel like what can i even do but if every single person feels like 

24:39

well what can i do then what's true is the existing power structures will 

24:43

continue to do exactly what they've done so what i realized in my work sort of as 

24:47

an activist and a change agent and also just a human was okay so to get to that 

24:51

bigger societal change it's vital actually to come back to the work that 

24:56

like people like you were doing of the showing the pathway to build integrity 

25:01

as a scaffolding to move us towards how we engage a collective transformation it 

25:06

won't happen on that collective level unless it's happening at each one of us 

25:10

saying the worldview shift is everything changing the narrative is everything you 

25:14

can't change behavior you can't make a different choice about how we operate 

25:18

how we you know treat the earth how we um the agreements we make around money 

25:23

in our economies like you can't make these changes 

25:27

around the systems that exist until we change the underlying world view the 

25:31

frame and uh and so that became something where i targeted in my sort of 

25:36

social change work was okay we have to come all the way back to 

25:41

shifting consciousness changing the narrative 

25:44

finding enough of that liberated selfhood that perceives the world in a 

25:49

different way and then get as many people on the planet possible 

25:53

having that kind of journey and i'm gifted every day brooke with 

25:57

uh right at that edge of watching how so much of our predominant media or social 

26:02

media experiences all the negativity and the destruction and how awful everything 

26:05

is uh i'm equally meant in my particular 

26:09

line of work and i love to sort of share that with people of hopefulness and 

26:13

solutions and incredible change makers and dedicated people on the front lines 

26:18

that have answers that have strategies that are doing this work and my work has 

26:23

been to amplify those stories and leverage the power of story to showcase 

26:28

and make another way possible because until we make sure everybody sees it 

26:31

doesn't have to be this way this is actually a choice we're all yes thank 

26:35

you you can change the frame you can change 

26:37

the story you as an individual actually have a lot of agency way more than we're 

26:41

being led to believe so how do we each start doing the work necessary at that 

26:45

personal coherence level as you speak to and when we're in integrity then we have 

26:50

the bandwidth to start engaging like okay how do now we as a community or we 

26:54

as a family or you know we as a local area how do we start to change the frame 

26:59

and if enough of people start to do that that's the only way you get to collect 

27:03

if you don't make collective transformation that's 

27:05

not how it works you make personal transformation and you multiply that 

27:09

potential for liberty that's why i always say integrity is 

27:14

fractal and that's actually the exact premise of emergence theory right every 

27:18

fractal is you know starts at the level of the individual but reflects at the 

27:22

level of relational missional behavioral societal spiritual it's all fractal it's 

27:26

all the same kind of process writ large um i'm noticing the time and so i'm 

27:32

going to um as much as i i feel like we could talk for hours 

27:36

i'm going to wrap up here and i'm just i'm so grateful for this conversation 

27:40

first of many many more and uh really excited for our upcoming retreat in a 

27:44

couple months it's going to be amazing and hope anyone listening if you're 

27:48

interested please join us you can look up more information myla therapy.com 

27:54

transformational.retreat and you can apply there and learn more 

27:59

all right thanks so much jamaica have a wonderful day thank you everybody i 

28:02

can't wait to see you in costa rica and beyond really appreciate this 

28:06

opportunity brooke i'm really excited to keep on this conversation and journey 

28:09

with you [Music] 

28:35

you