The Dynamic Tension Between Opposites with Nicole Buzzelli

We are conditioned to view the world in opposites—mind and heart, surrender and agency, grief and gratitude. But what we conceptualize as opposites are inevitably inseparable parts of the same whole.

It may seem hard to believe, but this way of thinking is conditioned and not real. We have been taught to see the world this way, and it has disastrous consequences to our mental health.

Why? 

The tendency to falsely dichotomize the world can interfere with our ability to navigate effectively because we are using “either or” thinking to explore concepts that are better encapsulated by “both and.”

Believing in false dichotomies causes us to pit various complementary elements of our experience against one another, setting up a warlike interior within ourselves. 

On this week’s episode of On Living with Brooke Sprowl, Brooke and Nicole Buzzelli dive into the exploration of opposites in their own lives.

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

0:00
[Music] hello this is on living with Brooke 
0:08
Sproul I’m Brooke Sproul   and this is my lovely friend and collaborator  Nicole bicelli she is a poet author and energy 
0:15
healer a very powerful woman with a long   history in the educational system doing
0:21
some very cool work and Nicole and I  have really incredible conversations so 
0:26
we decided to just get online and see  what emerges in the spirit of emergence
0:32
Theory so what have you been pondering  lately Nicole I feel like I’m in a fall 
0:37
of sorts I know we’re kind of going into fall   um yeah I feel like I’m in a season of like
0:45
I’ve got a lot of leaves that are coming  off hmm yeah I got lots of things coming  off studying things is super uncomfortable  
0:53
it’s interesting this morning I was I’m  doing I’m finishing my certification and  Peak Performance and flow Neuroscience  
0:58
training and they were talking today about um you know authentic growth being not  so much adding anything but actually 
1:07
removing   um what’s untrue what’s what’s in the
1:12
way and that really squares with you yeah as a  therapist because so much of my training is in  
1:18
unconscious uh defense mechanism recognition and compassionate defense  Interruption and kind of Excavating the authentic  
1:26
soul of the person because for me personally I would  show up in the world and you know before 
1:33
I had done substantial   personal work and of course we all still do  and I still do show up in this way at times 
1:38
um and sure and probably in   all the time in ways that I’m not still aware  of but to a greater extent and more often I 
1:46
would show up in the world in ways in which   um I was using defense mechanisms and 
1:53
relationships and yeah I feel like then  you get negative feedback from others  and you internalize  
1:59
that as something is wrong with me and it’s like  no actually it’s not you that is wrong or that’s 
2:06
getting this negative   feedback it’s your defenses but you come away  with the message that it’s you and then you end 
2:12
up doubling down and creating more   defense mechanisms yeah because it
2:18
promotes a sense of insecurity and  self-distrust and so part of the trick  is recognizing no it’s not me that’s  
2:25
being rejected hurt you know Etc it’s it’s these things that are in  the way of me showing the real me  
2:33
yeah and yeah I know that’s exactly what it is I feel like it’s a that’s exactly what it  is it’s getting enough distance from something  
2:43
to see it  as something that’s actually separate from you um
2:50
you know I’ve all you know for me it’s like  my emotional landscape like I’ll get in 
2:56
these emotions insecurity   Etc fill in the blank right all these  things and I’ll be unconsciously inside 
3:04
of it so I’m like becoming that   thing right and so then the trick
3:11
the past couple weeks it’s like I keep catching  myself I’m like oh shoot I’m in it I’m like in   the thing I’m becoming
3:17
the thing and the trick then is to like  find some sort of neutrality enough not 
3:24
even like a   full like I don’t even need to be fully neutral I  just need to be neutral enough to get like enough 
3:31
distance from it   to like see it as something that’s separate from  me right like the moment that I feel like it’s 
3:38
something I can look at I can observe it   is when I stop identify I stop being it
3:44
right I stop becoming it it’s like that distance  and there’s so many different ways to frame that   experience like in
3:50
cognitive science or Neuroscience we might talk  about it as metacognition in like Psychotherapy  
3:56
we talk about it as the observing ego um as you know in meditation  traditions we talk about it as maybe the higher 
4:04
self or you know there’s all these different ways   of framing this experience that you’re having of
4:09
stepping outside of yourself being able to  disidentify I guess that would be more of   the framing yeah
4:15
is you know um not identifying with thought  or not identifying with the self is probably a 
4:21
more accurate way of   um affirming that but yeah it’s so  interesting how so many different 
4:27
Traditions kind of   are pointing to the same things which is different  language and yeah um it’s so it’s so important to 
4:34
you know and this is actually kind of the   latest iteration of emergence theory is  
4:41
um you know one of the dialectics that I’m  exploring is between metacognition and intuition   so it’s like the ability
4:47
to step outside of ourselves and reflect  on our behaviors and kind of you know 
4:52
harness our   cognitive and intellectual capacity to understand  ourselves but then not without ignoring not not by 
4:59
ignoring the   body you know not by ignoring our Sensations like  kind of what is the optimal balance between this 
5:06
men met a cognitive skill and   this bodily kind of awareness
5:12
sensation wisdom and talents that we  have and yeah I notice that people  
5:18
tend to kind of Veer towards like they have  to choose one yeah and like like this 
5:24
one’s better this   one’s wrapping this one’s better this one’s more  spiritual and more grounded and more present it’s  
5:30
like no there’s actually a dynamic tension between the two and they’re incomplete  without one another they’re counterparts 
5:35
yeah no exactly I find it also   kind of feeds the other because
5:42
I mean I’ll even kind I’ll put it in  this term you know so I’ve been doing 
5:47
lots of meditation I’ll catch myself   I’ll catch myself in a feeling
5:53
um and then I’ll sit and I’ll meditate with it  try to get that distance get that separation  and lately I’ve been noticing there’s a limit  
6:01
with that I need the body so yesterday I went to the beach did some stuff there kind of  bounced around today I went on a hike 
6:10
I actually feel like I can’t do one   fully without integrating the other one
6:18
I can’t just sit in meditation and see  something from an awareness I have to  catch myself being the  
6:25
feeling in the body in the moment I am I have  to be able to recognize when I’m in something 
6:30
by the sensation of it   oh now I’m feeling this I know how to discern  what that is now and then I can go back and 
6:37
reinforce things in meditation   but then I need to go reforce what I’m  doing in meditation with what I’m doing 
6:43
in the body it ha they have to feed each other   it can’t be yeah I’ve been thinking one of the
6:49
others a lot because there’s such an emphasis  um right now and a trend in mindfulness and I   love mindfulness I
6:54
love meditation and I I use these practices  but I notice sometimes in certain mindfulness  
7:00
Traditions there’s this like over emphasis on the present  almost demonizing any other state and I 
7:06
think a really robust experience of the   present moment requires us to engage
7:12
with all our past and future in meaningful ways so  like you know I have to be in right relationship   with my past
7:18
to be able to experience a present moment  otherwise I have also cognitive interference   and anxiety that’s really
7:24
preventing my ability to be fully present  similarly you know having access or you know  
7:29
quite often I mean motivationally our goal states are tied to our  well-being in the present moment so knowing where  
7:36
we’re aiming having a higher purpose you know being aligned with a  vision for our lives is a part of an optimal  
7:42
experience of the presence so I’ve just been realizing um on our trip in Italy  David Whyte use the term deracinated present and I 
7:50
thought that   was so like that was exactly the thing that I was  trying to kind of work out about what it is that 
7:57
feels incomplete in some   approaches to meditation and I think people  would argue that no you’re being present to 
8:02
all of that but in practice that’s not   exactly what it how it seems to play out
8:08
it seems like it’s like you know there’s  a disowning of past and future yeah in a 
8:14
way that feels potentially   uh compartmentalized or
8:20
um yeah like I think there’s a much richer way  of accessing the present by synthesizing the  
8:25
past and future and present rather than by simply kind of setting the  other two aside even though there’s maybe a time  
8:31
to practice that as well but I don’t think it’s like the you know  the end-all be-all the way that it’s often taught 
8:37
yeah and I actually think   I just see it as kind of like these
8:44
lines that we have and whenever I see lines in  anything I always I’m like let’s investigate 
8:50
why we’re drawing these lines   between past present and future
8:56
they probably all exist at a Crossroads  somewhere and are not separate and even 
9:01
if we can’t   maybe always conceptualize it in my
9:08
experience of anything that we’re drawing lines  in between is that when you start to investigate   it the lines
9:13
are quite blurred it’s never quite that  nothing is separate right and all of the 
9:19
lines are just where   we draw them and you can you can change where  you draw them it’s interesting um have you read 
9:25
the book no boundaries by   Ken Wilbur it’s very much in line with what  you’re talking about I wish I had it fresh 
9:31
enough in my mind   to articulate it properly but essentially like  there’s all these different ways that we can 
9:37
draw different   Lines within and without and when you really kind  of look at it you recognize there are no real no 
9:43
actual lines um yeah I   wish it was fresh enough in my mind to be able  to like give specifications get the good thing 
9:49
yeah I it’s actually been um I   haven’t really thought of it this
9:55
way but I’ve gotten a healing um on my
10:01
relationship with time lately  I gotta I got a healing on it   once I was able to kind of
10:08
take that line out between my present  and my future I was one of I had this 
10:14
tendency to always   um have this anxiety around making choices
10:22
right and I know that this is not  unique to me because I’ve had a lot   of conversations with this about people  recently but this anxiety around making 
10:29
the wrong choice   making the right choice if I choose this  one what if I’m not going in the direction 
10:35
that I’m supposed to be going in or that   my higher self wants me to be what if I
10:41
miss the sign what if I go left and my sign  is over there in the right you know what if   I what if what if
10:47
and um I had this have you seen did you watch  Harry Potter I am the only person in the 
10:55
world who has neither read nor seen   any of like no interest no interest
11:00
yeah I started reading like a little bit  of it so I kind of know some things but 
11:06
Muggles you don’t need to talk about Muggles   they strike again you’re not supposed to
11:13
say Voldemort or something is that the one I  can’t I can’t I also can’t discern the difference  
11:18
between the Lord of The reigns people that start with a V and the ball  it’s like they’re it’s all the same okay they’re  
11:25
all the same people they’re all the same people well so there’s  this scene and I guess it doesn’t really matter  
11:30
but it was it was kind of what I had in my head and this has  been in a couple different movies but there’s the  
11:36
scene where Harry the main character or the other Brooks  out there you have no idea I think I got 
11:43
that part and this girl is talking   about so there’s Harry and he is waiting
11:50
he’s waiting for someone to  save him from the scenario 
11:55
that he’s in and you know no spoilers   in case Brooke wants to watch it later
12:01
um he’s waiting for someone and he  finally somebody shows up on the other 
12:07
side of the   lake somebody shows up and does the thing that  saves him right and later he goes you know the 
12:15
future he travels he’s you know time goes on   later he gets a Time Turner he goes back
12:21
in time to that moment and he’s sitting  where the person who he saw from the 
12:26
other side of the lake   came to come save him and he’s waiting for that  person to show up and they’re not showing up and 
12:31
he’s like no I know   that they’re going to show up because I already  experienced this this moment and I know someone 
12:36
shows up   but no one shows up and so in the end he  goes and he does the thing and he showed 
12:43
up for himself it was   him you know big reveal with him saving himself  and two things I think number one one of the 
12:50
big things that I’ve been   shedding one of the big leaves that I’ve  been shedding is the same quality that I 
12:57
have around waiting I’m waiting I’m always waiting   for the sign I’m waiting for something to save
13:05
me I’m waiting um and I’ve had so many iterations  of this in the past but there’s definitely 
13:10
this quality of um you know when I was   a kid I used to like hang out under doorways
13:18
because they’re a good vantage point I could  like I could see into multiple rooms at 
13:23
once and so I would sit there   like with my back up against the door frame and I  would read or write or just sit and I would just  
13:28
be scanning my environment waiting for something to happen  waiting for a PIN to drop waiting  
13:34
for X Y and Z right and I think  there’s a little Nicole there’s 
13:41
a part of me that’s still waiting in   doorways all the time for things to show up
13:46
um and so that’s one of the things that I’ve been  kind of looking at trying to get separate from 
13:53
but the other thing was this you know  
13:58
I uh I’m waiting for something to happen and I keep getting scared if I get up and go into  this room what if something happens in that room  
14:05
that I need to be there for if I get in this room but if  something happens in that room that I   need to get there for and so I’m living  my life sitting underneath a doorway 
14:12
and I had this thought one day   what if I just assume
14:20
that this moment has already happened  there’s a place in the universe where  
14:26
the future has already happened and I’ve already taken  care of it and I’ve already made the right  
14:32
Perfect Choice um and then I don’t have to wait for  anything to show up because I know  
14:39
whatever it is that I do it’s already been done if that makes sense whatever choice I  choose is already been made and so it’s this weird  
14:47
like I’m almost using predetermination as a way to Aid  My Free Will if that makes sense 
14:55
as a way to make choices I love this   so much because interestingly so you know
15:01
obviously I have emergence Theory and someone  sent me a video that some physicists are working  
15:06
on by the name of emergence Theory it’s fascinating I’ll share it  with you but it talks about how from a temporal  
15:14
perspective everything has already happened and that actually there is a  way in which we can access and sort of interface  
15:21
with all time um energetically spiritually or whatever which is  interesting because it’s this like actual it’s not  
15:27
like a new age like oh physics it’s like an actual research  Collective a physicists who are 
15:35
15:35 seriously studying these things and   um I think that’s fascinating so I’ll  have to send that to you please send 
15:42
that to me I also need   to have them as like my next podcast yes I need  to like talk to them but the other piece that 
15:49
was interesting to me is one that I’ve sort of   kind of gradually begun to embody more of an  attitude of what you describe which I 
16:01
would call Faith really because Faith   because I’m I’m now old enough as we
16:07
were talking about earlier I’m now old enough to  where there are enough times in my life where I’m  
16:13
like oh that thing went so wrong and I’m devastated and then I look  back and I see how it was all orchestrated and  
16:19
the more I Surrender and accept and allow and trust  that everything is a part of a bigger 
16:26
plan the more that in a way I don’t   know if it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
16:32
or if I just see it more clearly or I just have  access to that State of Consciousness but my  
16:39
sense is that what you’re talking about is really a version  of faith and I think we you know I think 
16:45
that we can we access faith in the   experience of what it’s like to live
16:52
life and character and integrity because the  only way that you can have in my opinion or at  
16:57
least in my personal experience I don’t think that you can have faith  if your character isn’t refined properly because  
17:05
because you  can’t trust that you are going to make  the correct kind of adjustments and 
17:13
iterations that are going to ultimately   Reveal Your higher self and needs so if
17:18
you’re going to just bury your head in the sand  then you can’t have faith if that’s your character   is to run and avoid and look away then there’s no
17:26
orchestration you’re not going to see it that’s a  self-fulfilling prophecy right you’re the kind of   you know recipient of 17:32 
17:32
fate and predetermination in this kind  of fatalistic way whereas when we step 
17:38
into a more open growth mindset you   know internal locus of control we begin to
17:44
understand how um each part  of our Lives is absolutely 
17:50
in service of our higher selves I went   to and our unique Destiny on what the
17:55
world is calling forth from us I worked with an  energy healer before I met you who like it was  
18:01
a 30 minute reading but she um she said something like each  moment is your teacher and each and life 
18:10
life is offering the lessons and   it’s so true in each moment I feel like
18:15
everything we need is right before us  but we just have to learn to see it and 
18:21
like the lesson   is just to again remove those layers well that was  the thing I was saying I was going to say earlier 
18:26
that I didn’t finish the thought of   uh the the metaphor in the program that  I’m I’m doing the Peak Performance and flow 
18:33
Neuroscience coaching program was   the the statue of the David and how the
18:38
attitude was not you know you’re they they go  how did you do this and it wasn’t you you add  
18:44
clay and you create this it was actually no it was already in there  you just had to remove it did I say that already  
18:49
yeah no but I’ve heard this before yeah I’ve heard this or thought  like you know when you’re when you are  
18:55
when you’re carving anything right you have to chip away to find I’ve  heard other Carvers wood Carvers talk 
19:03
about that too the shape is already in there it’s   my job to find it and to create it and yeah it’s a
19:09
instead of chipping away yeah and then  back to this point of you know it’s it’s 
19:14
already there like you’re   already there your destiny your calling your  unique experience like it’s already yeah it’s 
19:22
already in there and   all you’re doing is just you know in each moment  how can I what do I need to just let go of and 
19:29
surrender and allow   for and then and then there’s this this other  dialectic that I’ve been exploring you know in 
19:36
emergence   Theory and in my own personal life around a region  agency and surrender right it’s like because you 
19:43
know and it’s the Serenity   Prayer you know give me the strength to accept  what I cannot change the courage to change what   I can and the wisdom to know the
19:50
difference and you know that’s so  interesting right because so often our I 
19:55
think Redemption   salvation Freedom lies in surrender but not always  sometimes we’re really required to you know have 
20:03
Agency on knowing when is the time   to to surrender and when is the time to
20:10
um you know bring forth what  feels you know necessary for us   goes back to that
20:15
other dialectic around metacognition and  bodily intuition and sensation right I’m 
20:22
having a moment having   a moment it all connects it always all things  it does yeah and they all again they serve each 
20:31
other right having agency   serves when it’s time to surrender and
20:38
surrendering serves your ability to have  agency they’re not separate things they  serve they feed each other and  
20:47
it’s it’s I think what you were saying about we have to learn how to see it that’s
20:55
that’s an easier said than done like  that is a that is a constant commitment 
21:01
right to commit to learning how   to see things and to commit to
21:09
lifelong craftsmanship of seeing it’s  it’s it’s a craft I I think it’s the 
21:16
craft of   character and integrity though because it’s  really just the craft of being committed to   truth and when you
21:22
are when you are living in commitment  to truth above all else not outcome not 
21:27
what I want to happen but really I   am simply going to insofar as I can
21:34
iteratively you know excavate what is  true to me in my lived experience and my 
21:40
words and how I make choices and my values   you know I begin to uncover the
21:47
orchestration so I think the Org the perspective  and the perception of orchestration the experience  
21:53
of faith and trust is a natural emergent  property of that character and yeah the 
22:01
commitment to character and   integrity yeah I’m finding a lot of
22:07
relief it’s a relief it feels like
22:12
I get to put effort on the altar I think  I think a lot of people I think most 
22:18
people I know are   doing the best they can maybe not all the people  I know but I think most of the people I know are 
22:25
doing the best they can   and sometimes faith is feeling like
22:35
us I get to surrender that even like  they’re they’re like there seems to be a 
22:41
relief in   not having to think so
22:49
not having to spend so much energy being  able to take my energy out of what’s the  right choice what’s the wrong choice  
22:57
feels like relief it feels like washing up on the shore like it feels like relief like  Faith feels there’s a lot of relief in it yeah  
23:06
I think that’s the medicine right now for us culturally that you  know in our culture there’s such this masculine  
23:14
you know do uh produce effort willpower agency like all  of the value system or a majority of the 
23:23
value system in our culture is around those things   and there isn’t as much balance and wholeness and
23:32
um you know emphasis on the faith the surrender  the acceptance the allowance yeah and so I think  
23:37
that’s why there’s so much relief when we engage in that  because we’re not accustomed to having 
23:44
the permission   and we finally give ourselves  the permission it’s like water   yeah it is it’s like water and there’s
23:52
I think what you’re saying is there’s this sense  of relief and when you discover the other side  
23:57
of things right so if you have only been experiencing life through  agency and you discover surrender there’s like oh  
24:04
God thank God there’s another side to this thing and right and  then the same is true in the other direction and  
24:10
that’s why there’s always the yin and the young there’s always the  dynamic the dynamic tension which is right in  
24:16
between on the line between and the way these things  interlock together and hold hands yeah 
24:21
yeah and it doesn’t   even I’ve been talking a lot about
24:28
um I have a friend and we’ve been talking a  lot about um just coping strategies  
24:34
that we use to navigate our um emotional Landscapes growing  up and my strategy was I find Freedom in 
24:44
emotions I   go into the emotion I find all my freedom and  play there his strategy is I find Freedom from 
24:51
emotions right so I find the distance   and we both have gotten to a place in
24:58
our lives where our single nature of our  strategies isn’t working and we need more   tools for the tool belt and it’s
25:06
there’s a relief I’m like oh thank God I  don’t have to always feel things thank God 
25:11
you know and he’s like thank God I   get to feel things right yeah exactly and
25:19
this is dialecticism right it’s we’re on one  extreme and then we go to another and kind of   hyper correct and then we
25:24
synthesize the two and then that becomes a new  thing and then we go to the in the week yeah   that’s the iterative nature of
25:30
it and I think you know it reminds me of there’s  this uh episode of Radiolab I think it’s called  
25:35
words I think that’s what it’s called and it’s fascinating  because uh this Neuroscience researcher 
25:42
it starts with   this Neuroscience researcher who’s had a left  brain hemisphere stroke and what that means is 
25:49
that her uh kind of linguistic ability   goes away which is where so much of us
25:56
live in our culture I think and so uh  she she can’t she can’t access words 
26:01
anymore but she can still   like perform her surgeries because that right  brain is still intact like she can still kind 
26:07
of remember things visually but she can’t like   she doesn’t know what a kidney is or she doesn’t  know what but you know the corpus callosum in the 
26:14
brain is or whatever   um she can imagine things visually but  she can yeah the words but she describes 
26:19
the stroke and the   state you know thereafter before she relearned  language as so freeing and so yeah and so this 
26:28
incredible   experience and kind of elevates it and then they  tell this other story of this person who grew up I 
26:36
think in South America you know you know   many years ago uh before there was and
26:43
this person didn’t learn sign language they call  him ildefonso I don’t know if that’s that must be   a suit on them
26:48
um they call him ildefonso and they say he didn’t  have uh he he never grew up even with the ability   to sign he was
26:54
deaf and mute and he didn’t grow up with people  to do the sign or speak or anything and uh this  
27:00
this woman is trying to figure out how to teach him  language and she can’t figure out they 
27:07
show up every day   they show up every day they show up every  day they show up every day and she can’t   figure they and because she’s writing stuff  on the board and he can’t understand how it 
27:13
corresponds and then   she has this breakthrough where she decides  to act out the role of the teacher and the 
27:20
student so she goes   up and she shows a thing and then she sits down  she’s like oh okay and she starts pointing and and 
27:25
he gets it he   like has this moment where he’s like oh there’s  a word for the desk like he’s like he’s like 
27:32
weeping and he later then describes the 
27:38
experience as like the dark time and   he’s like I was so alone I was so
27:44
isolated and I remember in at like high school  or something this goes back to us being like the  
27:49
elders at like age five um I wrote something like language is the  metaphysical hands through which our cloistered  
27:55
Minds touch fingers or something like that yeah and it’s just  interesting right because both are true 
28:02
both are true and   what I also think about like punditry and like  political discourse and like a lot of different 
28:09
kind of what feel to me like out of   Integrity kind of cultural forces right 28:15 
28:15
now it’s that they’re speaking to one  part of the truth dialectic they’re  speaking to it without adding the yeah  
28:24
the full the other side it’s not that what they’re saying is untrue and  that’s why it resonates for a lot of   people because it’s true but it’s true  in a greater context and without that 
28:32
contract context Things become   unbalanced and sick I think what you’re
28:37
saying about this um isolated truth or  the segmentation of truth right goes 
28:45
to speak to  
28:50
people becoming the thing which is rather than being able to separate from it because  when you’re able to separate you get the you get  
28:57
the aerial view right you get the full you get to see  the full circle and not when you zoom in 
29:03
on a circle what you see is a   line so it looks like a segment of something  when you zoom out you would see oh it’s a 
29:09
circle and I think   the lack of ability to distance from our
29:17
feelings um yeah well the maybe not even just too
29:32
distance but to find that optimal balance between  connection and distance again because you know  
29:37
the moment that we we say distance is the answer is like no no  like we need that optimal kind of connection  
29:43
distance uh but it’s what the medicine is right so I recently looked up um the  word the etymology of the word medicine and the  
29:52
prefix Med is Latin and it literally means to take appropriate  measure which I think is beautiful  
29:59
because whatever the specific ailment is you can  ask what’s the appropriate measure right 
30:07
so and that’s   going to change the appropriate measure for a  heart that is too closed is different than the 
30:13
appropriate measure for a heart that is too   open right so when you’re finding yourself in
30:20
too connected and unable the appropriate  measure is distance and if you can only 
30:26
be distant the appropriate measure   is connectivity and the wholeness of that
30:32
is healing when you’re able to embody the  wholeness of it but when you’re stuck when   you’re in pain it’s because
30:37
you’re stuck somewhere right so find where you’re  stuck and then ask what the appropriate measure is  
30:43
to loosen it up it’s just a constant calibration  recalibration conversation I think with 
30:49
these different   um you know aspects of our experience  as humans well Nicole thank you so much 
30:55
okay I’m so so glad we’re able   to to connect and really enjoyed our
31:00
conversation I hope we can  do it again soon yeah see ya  [Music]



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