Dismantling Inherited Perceptions with Alex Federici

What is closest to us is often most invisible: a fish doesn’t know it’s wet. Similarly, we are so deeply conditioned by our culture that we are often unaware of how it frames our inner and outer experience.

This is self-validating, making it even more invisible because it is left unquestioned. We unconsciously embody and enact our cultural programs. 

Until we begin to wake up to our constructed reality, we will in some sense, be puppets of our cultural forces. 

In this week’s episode of Waking Up with Brooke Sprowl, Brooke and guest Alex Federici sit down to relate, discuss their own experiences with capitalism, and imagine new ways of being.

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

0:00

foreign [Music] living my name is Brooke Sproul  and I have on the show today my dear friend Alex  

0:11

federici Alex and I Alex and I have known each  other since we were a tender age of 18. children  

0:18

yeah what 20 years now and Alex has been hugely  instrumental in my own personal journey of kind  

0:28

of personal development self-awareness  learning and growing in my relationships  

0:35

um and my ability to kind of understand  and communicate more effectively understand   boundaries and consent as well as more recently  conversations about how the personal is political  

0:46

and how our internalized systems of Oppression in  our households can map onto our political views  

0:52

and sort of the feedback loop between those two  things and I've had sort of a profound Awakening  

0:58

in this regard which I credit largely to Alex and  our ongoing conversations and I thought this would  

1:04

be a really important conversation to have and  invite others into so welcome Alex and thank you  

1:12

it was an incredibly kind way of welcoming onto  your podcast thank you so very much Brooke I'm   super happy to be here yeah so uh we've had  this conversation I mean we've been I mean  

1:23

if we really Trace back the roots it's been a  few years now um and and it really started with  

1:29

you know conversations about how in a particular  relationship I was in um ways in which my value as  

1:37

a woman was perceived in relationship to physical  attraction and how I was objectifying myself and  

1:44

like therefore perceiving it as normal and okay  to be objectified by others or to have my value  

1:51

perceived in relation to this kind of cultural  standard of what is agreed on as Beauty and so  

1:59

that was really the beginning of some very long  conversations that have evolved significantly but  

2:06

um just sort of curious if you wanted to  share anything about about that topic because   I think that has some really important you know  ramifications um and and things to explore it's  

2:17

interesting because it when it came to your sense  of self-worth and I feel this way too because it's  

2:22

it's different for a hetero or hetero representing  men in our society but there's like a strain of it  

2:28

that's similar of uh what we have been told our  value is based in um and then we know to some  

2:38

large degree that there's a desire for perfect  expression of that thing that is not possible  

2:44

right so like you're not going to be I mean this  in the in the most chauvinist the gross sense   like attend right like nobody is a 10 everybody  has faults and so then you're looking for people  

2:53

to validate that you are worthwhile as opposed to  recognizing yourself as being perfect in your own  

2:59

imperfect Humanity from the get-go and so you then  subconsciously start looking for partners who will  

3:07

tell you things like you being perfect in not  an imperfect way but in the like no no you're   this thing or oh my God I get attention from this  person and if this person is giving me attention  

3:16

I must be worthwhile and now you're seeking  validation externally and it's not even like  

3:22

you know there are times in my life where I've  wanted to be around people that are most certainly   smarter than I am and there is certainly a feeling  of like oh I'm like in a conversation with a very  

3:31

smart person and there's something there's a type  of validity that's occurring in there but there's  

3:36

I think relationship where uh it isn't actually  about the way that the two of you are dancing  

3:44

and it is about what the person is willing to  give to you and what the person can take away   from you and so then you end up in relationships  with the other person holds the keys to your  

3:53

self-worth because you perceive yourself as  I'm only beautiful because this person says   that I'm beautiful they can take away that at any  time they can revoke that sense of self-worth and  

4:03

whenever they mistreat me they can give it back  to me as a way to allow for the mistreatment  

4:09

um yeah really well said and the framing that  I use to think about some of those Concepts  

4:15

is a little different maybe than yours you  know um I think about you know my frame of  

4:20

kind of the spectrum of narcissism and the  ways in which we appeal to things outside of   us for worth it as a compensation for  our internal sense of unworthiness or  

4:30

internal traumas that we experience we then  compensate by seeking external validation   and that creates a transaction transactional  and consumeristic approach to relationships in  

4:41

which we commodify ourselves and then as you're  saying we're looking to others how good how how  

4:48

um I had a friend who we used to talk about this  a lot and I think it's a really damaging framework  

4:53

but it's the thing we're trying to dismantle so  I think it's important that we talk about it like   how valuable are you in the sexual Marketplace  like where do you fall in that like as you said  

5:02

kind of deliberately chauvinistic like that that  framing like where do I fall in that one to ten   where am I on that and then we're constantly  looking for people and things and trying to  

5:11

present ourselves to raise our status as opposed  to seeing ourselves as intrinsically valuable in  

5:18

our unique expression and seeing relationships  as you said as a dance that is co-created and  

5:24

emergent between two people that's less about  any particular characteristics and how we live  

5:30

up to certain standards and more about kind of  the way you particularly connect with the given  

5:35

you know with the way in which two individuals  connect and relate and what they bring out in  

5:40

each other and what emerges in that dance and  so I've had you know I've gone through a huge  

5:46

shift in my relationships but it's still ongoing  I mean I still feel like I'm dismantling a lot of  

5:51

these transactional kind of consumeristic ways  of viewing myself and others and what's really  

5:57

beautiful though that we've we've talked about  is you know as we dismantle this internalized  

6:03

oppression and commodification like what opens  up in terms of possibilities to connect with  

6:09

people is so nourishing and Soulful it's  like you're no longer sort of um in this  

6:16

constant state of judging and evaluating  and seeking seeing others as instrumental or  

6:24

um uh you're you're kind of just you get into this  experience of just connection and kindness and  

6:32

um and seeing the beauty like the beauty  in the uniqueness the beauty not in the  

6:37

you're a 10 but in the actual kind of genuine  soulfulness of another human being and it's  

6:44

quite like it's quite radical how it shifts your  perspective and I'm not suggesting that I have  

6:50

that lens all the time or that it's been sort of  a linear right yeah right it's like I never want  

6:56

to present like when we have these glimpses of  a more awakened State of Consciousness I never   want to present that like I'm now enlightened and  that's just a fixed State and you know by you know  

7:08

and we've expressed this before that I think for  what for the two of us it comes from the opposite   directions but for me you know the whole that  I'm trying to fill and and the commodification  

7:17

of other people the perception of other people as  being in this Marketplace which whenever I see the   dating or the sexual Marketplace my body like  does one of these like you um that for me there  

7:30

is still a desire to prove to myself that I am  worthy that I am and so in that way it's like am  

7:35

I a good instrument would someone want to purchase  me even if that purchasing is with their time   and I can know which I do that I have intrinsic  value that far outweighs that that that that the  

7:47

intrinsic value that I have gets diminished the  moment I try to put a monetary or temporal value  

7:53

on who I am and what I am you know but I am uh if  we look at it from a religious perspective like I  

8:00

am a child of God that the thing that created  all things has gained for me to exist in this   moment and that there is no amount of money that  can supersede that understanding about the world  

8:09

or I am the the entail of 13 billion years of uh  astronomical atomical biological evolution that  

8:19

has led to this place that this like blip of thing  called Alex federici gets to exist and like any  

8:24

other way of viewing you diminishes the reality of  the situation because the reality of the situation  

8:30

are those two things however you want to view in  your Paradigm of the world and to see yourself as  

8:36

um a thing to be bought and sold to see yourself  as um am I good enough to be around other people  

8:44

am I a cool kid whatever the story is that you  have that story is so it pales in comparison to  

8:51

what the reality is and then when you see other  people because then the next step is like oh  

8:58

if that is true for me that's true for everyone  that everyone I interact with is a child of God  

9:04

who was created and put here because they have  intrinsic value every individual I meet here is  

9:09

the long tail of billions of years of striving  and trying and loving and being and this is a  

9:15

special moment when me and they get to share  space whatever the hell that is for this brief  

9:21

period of time whatever the hell that is that  like that that moment has value and that value

9:29

supersedes any way in which it validates me that  like this on my deathbed is going to be a moment  

9:37

in time that I got and there is no amount of  money or perception that is going to change   that oh my God me and Brooke are having this  conversation right now right it reminds me of  

9:46

the kind of ego being uh the Hungry Ghost right  it's like I mean sure you know my anytime I feel  

9:54

that brief relief of you know that ego boost  that gives me this momentary fleeting sense  

10:00

that I'm okay it's gone immediately and there's  a way in which it's never filled and I think only  

10:07

by kind of discovering how empty the Paradigm is  or failing at it in some way do we actually have  

10:13

the invitation to just to die to that Paradigm  and to discover this this new way of being and  

10:18

the preciousness that you're speaking to this this  preciousness and gift that we miss because we are  

10:24

taught to commodify ourselves and others and to  take such an instrumental approach to people to  

10:31

time I've been thinking a lot about what I've been  calling in my own mind temporal instrumentality  

10:36

like time is a means to an end as opposed to  like time as intrinsically worthy and it's almost  

10:43

analogous to what we're talking about as you know  us as human beings being intrinsically worthy and  

10:48

precious like when I slow down enough and when  I'm present I can find the preciousness In the  

10:55

Still Moments each day but because I take such an  instrumental and really capitalistic approach to  

11:01

I mean it's all what's really interesting for  me because some of the political conversations   and ideas are a lot newer for me is how so much  of our approach to ourselves uh others and time  

11:14

is capitalist is is like a conditioning and a  programming that is capitalistic that I didn't  

11:21

realize like I thought that this is just the way  things are I had no idea how much the culture  

11:26

and the the political system and just kind of  American cultural value you are a part of the  

11:34

way I live my really daily life and I think that  brings us to some of the larger conversations that  

11:39

we were wanting to have around kind of systemic  change and uh how cultural beliefs are such a

11:50

well I think the major breakthrough  and realization that I had recently   was that these political issues  are not logistical issues they're  

12:01

spiritual issues they are they are not  um I have for a long time thought that  

12:09

um you know all of this stuff it's like it's  just it is systemic but it's like it's logistical  

12:15

that's not my strong suit I don't know how to do  that so I can't I can't change anything and I felt  

12:20

this powerlessness and this defeatism because from  a young age I wanted to serve the world I wanted  

12:26

to make a difference and I felt like I didn't  have a way to do that and then it was like wait  

12:31

a second this isn't a logistical problem that's  the conditioning that's the lie that's the framing   that's been taught to me in order to prevent me  from changing it so that certain people can stay  

12:42

in power I see that now which I didn't see it  and so that the system remains in power right  

12:49

yes you know for the most part even even when it  is very clear that there are individuals who are  

12:54

intending to uh and I mean it's in a broader sense  profit off of the system that the system itself  

13:01

predates them right so that that even those that  you could even pinpoint say like they are actively  

13:07

making the world the way that it is currently that  like the system has existed for so long that it's  

13:13

not a thing that any one or group of individuals  have done it is the world that we were born into  

13:19

um it was inherited and then right yes it is  inherited by all of us the issued under codes   when it is a when it is a systematic issue that  we perceive it as just being an issue of a system  

13:30

and that the system's not the problem the problem  are the people in the systems and if only we could   either convince the people to act differently or  we can change the way that the system works we can  

13:41

somehow be what we want to be which is what major  makes it feel like it's a logistics issue but the  

13:46

problem is the system is the problem and even  working within the system to change the way that  

13:51

it works still perpetuates the system's existence  to try to make individuals relinquish power within  

13:58

the system only creates power vacuums that other  individuals are going to come into because those  

14:03

individuals are not the actual issue the system  is the issue and so even that Baseline belief   like oh if we just sat down together and could  have rational conversations and figure out what  

14:14

we needed to do within the Frameworks of the  system we could create eating and like that's  

14:19

not the way that this is going to work it actually  necessitates a paradigm change and that Paradigm  

14:25

Change Is A Soulful one because it requires us to  view ourselves and the world differently than the  

14:31

current system tells us we should see the world  in ourselves yeah really well said and I think  

14:37

that the the framing that's been so helpful to  me is that it's really our Collective agreements  

14:43

that create the systems in a way I mean we're  programmed to you know I mean we're indoctrinated  

14:49

we're acculturated to the systems that we inherit  but the collective agreements maintain the  

14:54

system and so if we can change our Collective  agreements about humanity and what what uh the  

15:01

intrinsic value of each person and how and our  understandings of the ways that each of us even  

15:08

those in power right now benefit from everyone  profiting from everyone having equal opportunity  

15:18

um equal like I don't know I've shared this  with you before but one of my favorite quotes   is Stephen J gold said I'm less interested in the  weight and convolutions of Einstein's mind than  

15:31

in the near certainty that people of equal  talent and intelligence have died in Cotton   Fields and sweatshops and for me it's so it's  so tragic that there are so many talented people  

15:43

who because they just happen to be born to into  certain circumstances aren't able to offer their  

15:51

unique gifts and genius to our culture and then  not only did they did they as individuals suffer   which we care about but also we all suffer we all  lose by depriving our culture of the richness of  

16:03

this kind of collective intelligence intelligence  of each person maximizing their human potential  

16:08

like you and I you know we've had so many gifts  and privileges and that have allowed us to you  

16:15

know be kind of trying to pursue our dreams and  and actualize ourselves kind of individually cycle  

16:21

logically and then now in service you know you  with your music and me with my podcasting and  

16:27

thought leadership and things and and really to  to have this unique potential but how much better  

16:32

would the world be for even us and everyone if  each person were able to express their uniqueness  

16:38

by having the same advantages and I know I  personally growing up with a very serious mental  

16:43

illness and having overcome that like I know  that if I were born into any other circumstances   I could be on the street like I don't delude  myself into believing that I'm somehow this  

16:54

amazing person as an individual that's just so  mentally resilient and so and you know this about  

16:59

me we're friends like you're the one I called  you I am when I'm upset so it's like I don't   delude myself into believing that it's really a an  individual character you know that has allowed me  

17:12

to succeed it is having so many advantages and so  much privilege to you know get the mental health  

17:18

care I need get the you know education I need and  the support that I I need you know have stable  

17:23

housing have stable food if if any of those things  you know if I didn't have any of those things I  

17:29

could certainly be on the street I could certainly  be houseless I could certainly you know be  

17:34

in any sort you know in jail in any sort  of different situation and I think a lot of  

17:40

people I don't think have that perspective or I  don't know I think a lot of people do have that  

17:46

perspective but I think I think people don't want  to acknowledge how precarious their situation is  

17:51

right I also think you know we are indoctrinated  acculturated into a belief of um what gets flipped  

18:01

and they said like pulling yourself up by your  bootstraps right and you know as a famous very   close at the end of his life uh interview that  Martin Luther King gave where he is decrying that  

18:11

statement because you're essentially telling  people that don't have boots let alone have  

18:16

straps on their shoes to pull themselves up by it  essentially so that you may call them losers and  

18:23

say that no you were allowed to play the game and  this is your fault that you are in the position   that you are in and to allow for us to say that to  people requires us to believe that we are worthy  

18:35

of the advantages that you and I have by birth  the Privileges that you and I have by birth and  

18:40

so you have generations of people and enclaves  of class that I've been told that they are worthy  

18:47

that they were chosen and as you've expressed  before in this kind of like moves meanders into   another place like you're raised Desiring to be  on the side of the bully and there's a whole group  

18:59

of people in our culture that through their  own bullying through the way that they were   treated when they were younger and that they were  acculturated want to be on the side of the bully  

19:08

because it makes them feel like No One's Gonna  Knock them off of their pedestal and the ultimate   fear is if I don't have this bully the others are  going to come due to us what we have done to them  

19:22

even if that's not the lay of the land even if  that's not actually what has ever occurred even  

19:27

in fact you look at civil rights gay rights  female rights in this country over a hundred  

19:33

years of some of those things it is not those  disadvantaged individuals coming into society   being welcome to society and immediately kicking  down the people who have been kicking them down  

19:41

for Generations they're just happy to be allowed  to be in society and not get killed but there is  

19:47

such a fear that people want to be on the side of  bullies and those bullies will constantly tell you   watch out if you allow for these underclass of  people to come up the first thing they will do  

19:57

is knock you down and the only person standing in  the way of that is me hmm yeah and the Paradigm  

20:04

is that like that there's always going to be a  bully so you might as well you know you might   as well be on that side otherwise it's like it's  like killer be killed like eat or be eaten you  

20:12

know like there's this idea that like that  that's necessary like there doesn't we don't   we don't have to play that game like we don't we  just don't have in some Pockets that was not the  

20:21

way that I was raised and it's so interesting to  me when we had these conversations and you know   these things was like I want to better understand  where you came from because culturally just forget  

20:29

the way that my parents raised me culturally like  okay so just right now like superheroes are a big  

20:34

thing and like the superhero mindset is like no  no like you're gonna get a superpower or you're  

20:39

gonna like build this incredible thing and then  you are gonna go beat up the bullies and it's   not about like being on the side of the of the  bully it's not about like making sure that the  

20:49

bad guy that's in power like you can be on  their side like the ethos of the culture is  

20:54

no no bad guys lose cheaters never Prosper you  want to be powerful to make sure that you take  

21:01

care of other people and beat up the bad guys  so like there is a strain of something that  

21:07

exists in my mind at least under the prevailing  culture that is not actually the things that I  

21:14

watched or the like the ethos of the things that  I read when I was younger that there is a thing   that we talk about which is like America goes and  beats up Hitler and then the thing that we don't  

21:22

want to talk about which is like also while  oppressing black people um [Music] yeah but  

21:29

the story I think is the right story and so there  are there seems are to be pockets of society that  

21:35

are telling different stories because it blows my  mind when bullies rise to power and it's not very  

21:40

obvious what is going on and the only reason  it's obvious to me I truly believe because the   culture I grew up in and the stories I was told  when I was younger else I wouldn't realize it  

21:49

right yeah what's most shocking and disturbing to  me is what I think of as analogous to gaslighting  

21:57

which is the bully is rising and and claiming to  be the one being bullied like both sides perceive  

22:06

themselves to be you know the ones being bullied  um even the privileged side that is actually  

22:13

bullying and how do we discern those things I  mean that was the hardest thing for me Alex that  

22:18

you've really helped me you know understand  and like come to a genuine kind of like self  

22:26

ability to myself now discern and see what I  believe to be truly there not like Alex told  

22:31

me and now I see it but like actually really  understand the frame and understand the thing   but but like I guess what I want to share with  others and I don't know if this is you know if we  

22:40

can even codify this it was such a a long process  of so many conversations it's like how do we know  

22:46

like how do we know that we're not the the person  who's actually the bully like how do we know which  

22:51

which side is which how do we know the difference  between you know the superheroes and the Hitlers  

22:56

of the world you know because I think that's  part of the conundrum right now and again by   Design I think it's intentional but you know like  it's really difficult right now in our current  

23:07

culture with our you know all of the ways in which  we're kind of siled by social media and Google and  

23:13

and like the content that we're receiving being  curated to our biases and preferences like how   do we know which world is real this is not new so  I do think you know there's a there's a story of  

23:28

um that the man who created the public address  system went to his grave believing that he was  

23:35

um he was the reason for Hitler's rise and in a  negative way like he carried guilt that were it  

23:42

not for me and the thing that I created that  this thing would not have been possible right   and I think I would hope that the people  who created the current technologies have  

23:50

some sort of concern for what they've done  but I'm pretty sure they haven't they they   don't but that uh these things are going to  occur regardless I'm not certain that it's um  

24:02

that the media is the message in this instance I  think it is about how the message gets that what  

24:09

we allow the messages to be and conversations  about what sorts of speech are acceptable which  

24:15

now becomes a more thorny conversation that you  and I have been trying to have for some fun I   think it is helpful to to take and say wait this  is universal this isn't contextual I mean I do  

24:24

think that there's a way in which these things  are being Amplified and accelerated by you know  

24:29

our current technology but you know there's  a way in which like you say it's it's sort of  

24:35

Universal and you know trans-temporal so like for  me my framing always comes back to the individual  

24:43

and like the individual analogy because that's my  expertise is you know individuals relationships   Etc so it's helpful for me to like contextualize  it or announce or or use metaphors that are  

24:54

related to individual and relational Dynamics and  like when I think about children being bullied um  

25:01

it's extremely traumatic if you teach a child not  to stand up to a bully like they carry the shame  

25:09

I mean I work with people who've been bullied and  it's like it doesn't like the imprint is so deep  

25:15

part of my struggle and you know individually  when I've been in relationships that have  

25:21

abusive elements or bully elements is I almost  always engage with the bully as though they are  

25:29

um operating in good faith and  then I'm like very confused by why

25:35

my good faith like communication like I'm using  all my communication skills I'm doing all the  

25:43

right things and yet somehow the conversations  aren't resulting in the way that they would with  

25:49

any good faith person you know like and so I would  be very confused by that and I guess I'm just  

25:56

kind of trying to map that on to this political  dialogue I think that that's a lot of what is  

26:01

happening too is like we have and I think a lot of  people are are Savvy to this and they they aren't  

26:07

engaged in it in this way but for me it was like  this feeling that um oh well there's there's two  

26:13

good faith you know parties there's two good  faith and not that they're doing that not a   political sense yeah I mean the parties isn't like  the two American political parties you mean two  

26:23

individuals or two groups having conversation yeah  but this transcends a political binary yeah right  

26:28

and and you know each of these parties is you know  operating in good faith but it's like no a lot  

26:35

of people are not both individuals and you know  political groups are not operating in good faith  

26:40

so you can't have a fair fight and you're never  gonna win a a fight if you're playing by the rules  

26:47

and someone else isn't and so that's a big part  of what I see you know in terms of my individual  

26:53

experience where I am or you know I have more  expertise awareness experience understanding and  

26:58

I can kind of I could see the complexity in it  but then it's like when I try to map that on to  

27:03

you know the larger conversation I'm starting  to see the same principles apply collectively  

27:10

although I am curious then I think to to move  from the depressing element of it how do you no  

27:17

sincerely how how do you think is the best way to  begin the dismantling of the negative aspects of  

27:27

that upbringing while maintaining community  family friendship and not throwing the baby  

27:34

out with the bath water but like how do we how  do we get into those subgroups in our culture  

27:42

to plant seeds to change the way that people  think from inception what a great question you  

27:50

know for me my individual Journey was very much  you know around there was a lot of what I call  

27:57

transformative destruction right so there was a  lot I had to tear down there was a lot of kind of  

28:02

death and rebirth but many deaths and rebirths  that had to happen and part of that was a loss  

28:08

and a grief of that original community and a lot  of reprogramming and healing and deep internal  

28:16

work and in terms of my own Psychotherapy and  um self-awareness and and so much that needed  

28:24

to happen before I could actually you know  reconnect with friends and find people that  

28:32

I was connecting with from a more a deeper way I  mean I had very deep close relationships in the  

28:40

church but I didn't realize that there was a way  in which My True Values weren't reflected in those  

28:46

relationships and it wasn't until I did a lot of  internal work and healing that you know you and I  

28:52

reconnected several years ago and some some of  some older friendships kind of resurfaced as I  

28:59

kind of emerged from the old Paradigm and kind  of continually grew and left old relationships  

29:05

behind that weren't really in alignment with my  values and then um you know and then I started  

29:12

to create new friends with like within a new set  of values and a new paradigm but it took a lot of  

29:19

um it took a lot of Letting Go and it did take  some being alone and some grieving I mean it took  

29:25

it took a lot of pain um but I think that finding  you know groups that share your values I mean  

29:32

you have to know what your values are and that's  part of the you know the transition time is like  

29:38

to go back to a Biblical metaphor um what's the  analogy I heard one time it was like you know the  

29:45

opposite of um slavery isn't Freedom the opposite  of slavery is the desert like you know you don't  

29:53

you don't exit oppression um and just go straight  to Freedom you actually go through a period in  

30:01

which there's kind of a a destitute land that  you're wandering and you don't know if you're   gonna get to Freedom you got out of the oppression  but you're not actually clear if you're gonna get  

30:10

to the promised land and so you know I think that  that really for was my experience was there was a  

30:19

part of it that was freeing um and liberating  and healing and then there was a part of it  

30:25

that was I really miss that I've got  no Bedrock anymore there was something   familiar there's a bit of a Stockholm syndrome  in that and then over time as you kind of go  

30:35

through the desert you you gradually start  to really find out who you are I think and  

30:43

um and then on that Journey you meet others kind  of if we're on the same path and and I think   that's where you start to rebuild a more authentic  and enduring community based on your actual values  

30:54

but man it's not it's not an easy Road that's  I mean it's not like a a super straightforward  

31:00

process I think it's very iterative I think it's  very kind of long suffering I think it's it's  

31:05

there's a lot of very deep work involved in that  process what do you think yeah and I think for

31:16

and then I think there's a way in which the  necessity is to as uh in ways being former  

31:24

Wanderers make sure that you create community  on the other side for people to come into  

31:31

right because we can start to to just murder  this metaphor we could start planting villages  

31:38

on the outskirts of that desert that begin  to encroach on the desert so that in each   existing generation that the the journey is  actually shorter and shorter and that there  

31:48

are established places and people for you to  come into that will grab you and take you in   right that that in a way this is like a cultural  Refugee program right that that that and that  

32:00

it requires and this gets back to the way our  culture is like once you get free there is a   feeling if you're just kind of out for yourself  like I'm finally free and I just get to go and  

32:09

it's like no but also perhaps we create a  community on this side of the spectrum that  

32:15

allows for people to come into our arms afterwards  and and and that requires us to accept that we  

32:22

have accessed and acceptable amount of freedom  for ourselves like I don't need to keep running  

32:28

I'm already here I can make Tamp here and I can  be a place for people to come and be given love  

32:35

hmm that's that's sounds like a really wonderful  place to to wrap thank you so much Alex  

32:43

I love you thank you for having me  Brooke thank you so much time [Music]

33:04

thank you