What is True Spirituality? with Henry Shukman

On this week’s episode of Waking Up, I had the absolute privilege of sitting down with Zen meditation teacher, author, and poet Henry Shukman.

We discuss topics such as the similarities and differences between spirituality and psychology, non-dual awareness and the ego, parallels between Internal Family Systems Therapy and mindfulness, Henry’s spontaneous awakening experience, spiritual bypass, and what it means to have an authentic relationship to spirituality.

Henry is one of those people who deeply embodies kindness and presence, and is also very open about his own struggles and difficulties. He’s exactly the kind of person I love to learn from, because it’s clear that he is truly walking the walk, not just talking the talk. 

I hope you’ll enjoy getting to learn from him as much as I did.

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

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I just I just kind of disappeared and  became part of the whole universe I knew 

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that that's what I'd always been and it  was it was a kind of infinite healing it 

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was it was indescribably beautiful and  clearly you know without doubt I knew 

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like the most important thing that had  ever happened to me to the point where I   could have died that night and known that my life was fulfilled [Music] 

0:32

foreign [Music] up with Brook  sprawl my guest today is 

0:38

the wonderful Henry shookman Henry welcome   thanks so much for having me it's great  to be with you yeah so lovely to connect 

0:45

with you we have quite a bit  in common from spirituality and   meditation to poetry and psychology so I have a feeling we'll have a very rich conversation today  

0:55

so talk about your background with meditation and spirituality I know you had kind of a spontaneous  

1:01

Awakening experience would you  like to share about that when I was  19 I had yeah this thing  happened out of nowhere where 

1:09

I just uh my ordinary sense of things  just fell away I was looking at the 

1:16

light of the Sun in late afternoon on  the water and I I just um now stone cold 

1:22

sober and uh it really never barely  hadn't been in my life you know and had 

1:28

basically you know occasionally drank some  beer as a teenager and stuff smoked some hash   but no nothing beyond that and no kind of really no interest  

1:39

in anything esoteric or mystical or spiritual and suddenly I just was uh  

1:46

I just I just kind of disappeared and became part of the whole universe and  

1:52

um I knew that that's what I'd always been and it was it was a kind of   infinite healing it was it was indescribably beautiful and  

2:01

clearly you know without doubt I knew like the most important thing that had  

2:07

ever happened to me to the point where  I could have died that night and known  that my life was fulfilled and and I um  actually you know you know what in the 

2:20

way of things I didn't die and and life  went on and I had a blissful few weeks 

2:25

and then I went home I was I'd been away  from Far From Home on a gap year when 

2:31

when this thing happened and when I got  home almost immediately I was really 

2:37

kind of hammered by all the  unexamined childhood trauma that 

2:45

I'd lived with which was you know  mostly about two things a very difficult 

2:51

domestic situation you know with  um well with parental and stuff and 

2:58

secondly another chronic um rather severe skin  condition throughout my childhood and and which 

3:04

which had become free of while I was  away and so I came home and suddenly you 

3:10

know all the unfelt um feelings  of my childhood that I'd 

3:16

sort of managed to compartmentalize so I  could kind of function when I was a kid 

3:23

um I was so open that all of it  just sort of swamped me and I had no 

3:28

significant resources for dealing with it and  I was completely overwhelmed and went into 

3:33

a kind of deep despair which which I  kind of lived I sort of kind of lived 

3:41

with for a few years and then and  then actually that's when I started   to meditate I in my early 20s I think I was actually 24 I  

3:51

started meditating and that was the the way that my sort of healing Journey really began because  

3:59

it it's really fairly soon after I started meditating regularly  

4:05

um I realized that I was something was off I wasn't happy and there hadn't  

4:11

been for a long time and that I could do  something about it and I I started doing  I started you know I started getting  into therapy so how do you see the  

4:19

difference between spirituality and psychology that's such a great question   the difference between psychology and  spirituality I mean of course you know 

4:27

they can mean a lot of different things  and um undoubtedly there's a whole lot of 

4:33

overlap and in a certain way I mean I  feel my journey has been and continues 

4:39

to be absolutely about both of them and  um I would say maybe it's just sort of 

4:46

almost for the sake of convenience that sort  of in my understanding you know spirituality is 

4:54

is can Encompass um for one  thing non-dual experience it can 

5:01

Encompass what we call Awakening which  is where you know our sense of self 

5:07

isn't sort of improved tended cultivated  developed it simply is seen through it's 

5:15

seen the it's always been an illusion  and and we discover that when that 

5:21

illusion is no longer kind  of hooking us or capturing us 

5:27

we're we're actually part of a great whole that is 

5:32

everything and it's you know it's an  incredible Discovery to make and I do 

5:37

think it's a discovery meaning  that it's kind of real because 

5:43

um I I believe and there's a lot of  Neuroscience these days and other   kinds of Investigation supporting you know the sort of contention that the sense of self as we  

5:53

normally experience it as stable and fixed and separate from all else is  

6:01

actually a kind of Illusion but leaving that aside I also think  

6:08

it's it's it's kind of terrible not to tend our self I think we must I mean I certainly  

6:16

I've had to bring you know learn to bring a loving   welcoming attention and awareness to what I feel I am so that the sense of self  

6:29

that I can still plug into can still experience is  

6:36

is cared for so you say I don't really I mean some people you know hardcore  

6:42

non-dual folks would say I'm wrong there isn't a self  

6:48

just ignore it you know kind of thing but  to whatever extent you're getting caught by 

6:53

things and having intense negative  emotion that's just the extent to which 

6:58

you're still hooked by this thing that you've  got to get unhooked from but I actually 

7:03

I mean I think they may be right I don't  know but um and I said I must say I've had 

7:09

periods of time when I might have even  said that myself but I I really don't 

7:15

see it that way now I feel we we've got  to a well-rounded kind of um unless I'd 

7:22

say wholesome and sort of integrated  um spirituality actually must include 

7:29

psychological tending as  well and I I sort of feel um 

7:36

I don't really want to lean on  one side and exclude the other 

7:41

yeah familiar with Ken Wilbur's work at  all yes some of it I've read oh man he's 

7:47

great I've I've Loved I haven't read a  whole lot but I've read bits in pieces I 

7:52

mean man that whole pre-trans fallacy thing is  brilliant she's talking to John verbiki about that 

7:59

last week I think we could dive into a little bit but there's a few different things I wanted  

8:06

to touch on from what you shared  you know Ken Wilbur talks about  transcending and including so it feels you  know at the higher levels of development  

8:14

we don't simply go to the next level and then disown the   previous level that's not an authentic  developmental process and that's not a 

8:23

sustainable developmental process to the  extent that I've done that you know kind   of working with my own say narcissism it's like there was a time when I was  

8:30

like oh I'm not a narcissist but all  those people are narcissists and now   this is dangerous and now this is this part of me is bad now I've disowned  

8:37

it now it's you know kind of cut off in  some way and of course then I found that 

8:42

everywhere around me and it didn't feel  safe and then when I was able to go back   and kind of get to know that part and find empathy for that part as just the  

8:50

little girl who's just struggling and  didn't get enough you know didn't feel  self-worth and needed to get a sense  of self from the outside world as I  

8:58

was able to find just compassion for that all of a sudden other people with those   traits didn't feel threatening and I was  able to transcend it in a more authentic 

9:07

and grounded way where it's still a part  of me I'm not trying to get rid of it   it's no longer dangerous or a threat and so it does feel like there's a necessity  

9:15

to you know not simply transcend but also to include the lower levels of  

9:22

development and you know there's a lot of you know there are people in the  

9:27

spiritual Community who have reached a  kind of Awakened State of Consciousness  without doing the accordant spiritual  work and that's where we see all of  

9:36

these kind of cult leaders who are very corrupt as they have these very mystical  

9:41

um I mean I I've never encountered you know firsthand these kind of leaders who have  

9:49

actual Powers I don't know if you have I'd be very curious but I've   heard stories like Michael Singer talks  about you know certain experiences he's had 

9:57

with gurus who have you know the ability  to kind of I don't even know I I don't 

10:02

even know that I could describe it but in some  way move energy or heal or you know kind of 

10:08

um cultivate these certain States and I  don't know if I fully believe in that but   I'm I'm I hear that there are people like that who have these at least  

10:16

magnetic presences you know they're just  captivating they're embodied they they  exude unconditional love but then  there's like the oceans of the world  

10:24

where they they have those traits and then there's all of this corruption and   all of this exploitation and so that's  where this apology piece is so important 

10:33

to integrate the shadow so it's it's  interesting because I've always had   the assumption that if you're enlightened in that sense if you reach that level of Awakening  

10:42

that you aren't prey to the psychological vices and the   ego temptation but what I'm recognizing  is in some ways they're separate and in 

10:52

other ways I think spirituality can be a natural  kind of um expression of the Continuum of you 

10:59

know like psychological development  but in some ways you know they can be 

11:05

separated um and and but as you say I think that finding the wholeness and it is the the kind  

11:15

of truly enlightened State requires us a level of integrity and Shadow  

11:20

integration there's a way in which people aren't truly Reckoning with  

11:26

the Shadow and the pain and the trauma and spirituality can be used as a way to gloss  

11:32

over that and I would argue that's  not a healthy relationship with  spirituality um you know it sounds like you  would agree with that by and large I totally 

11:41

agree with everything you said but then  I think of like one of my teachers in   particular who's a zen teacher in the UK I write about him in my book actually and he's  

11:52

God he you know he's just such a kind man and he was is so deeply enlightened  

11:58

and so unassuming and you know hardly anybody kind of knows about him you know he's very  

12:04

quiet under the radar he'd he'd be he'd been a lawyer he retired  

12:10

and and then ran to Charities for severely disabled people and towards them and he  

12:17

he you know he really he hadn't done a whole   lot of psychological work he may have done  a bit here and there but it wasn't like he 

12:26

was somebody who come through tons of  therapy and was really well versed in it   um but he he just uh exuded peace and love in a very  

12:40

sort of humble unassuming kind of way and lived this very   humble um simple life of service that you know and I really um so somehow I think he probably 

12:57

the language has sort of hadied down all  this Shadow integration of the Shadow I   don't know because I always think of like in the realm of spiritualities  

13:05

there's always sort of caveats and  exceptions and sort of so I think it's  very hard to say anything categorical in  this realm like I mean I've known people  

13:15

who you know they just had one powerful Awakening experience and it just sort  

13:21

of melted their life like a hot knife  through butter in the most beautiful way 

13:26

and you know I'm meeting them 25 years  later and they're they're still sort of 

13:31

radiant and quiet and it just  you know and and leading exactly 

13:37

a life that sort of suited them there  was great peace around them and and you 

13:42

know and not not in positions of of authority  like teaching people or anything like that just   just quietly embodying  

13:51

a spiritual experience that they'd had that   just sort of they'd allowed to gently kind of radiate through their being more and more  

14:03

I think and again who weren't particularly I mean dare I say a   sort of sophisticated in the language of  psychology or even spirituality and yet 

14:13

worth it you know of course there could be a  little bit of projection here too but seem to 

14:20

reside in a kind of I don't know radiant  warm loving way that you could feel 

14:26

around I don't know I'm just saying it's  not it's not I don't know I'm hesitant 

14:32

about you know kind of legislating how it  must be because it's such a weird realm I 

14:39

agree with you and I think not everyone  is as neurotic as everyone else not   everyone has the same degree of trauma as other people so there are I think  

14:48

for some of us like my path because I'm  high in eroticism and have you know some 

14:53

stuff that I've had to work through in terms of my  own trauma um I had to do that work it was it was 

14:59

inevitable you know for me to survive  and to be able to integrate anything 

15:05

authentically spiritually but you're  right there are some folks who they have   these Awakening experiences and it perhaps doesn't require that same  

15:13

level of Reckoning and and I don't feel  skeptical of that when people are deeply 

15:18

embodying love and kindness and you're  not seeing any of the kind of red flags 

15:23

in terms of corruption then you know  I don't feel skeptical about that the   people I feel skeptical about are people who are over emphasizing that everything is  

15:33

love and light and that there's not  there's no space for Shadows so for 

15:38

example I uh had a friend a kind of  new friend a few years ago who I really 

15:43

liked and and um really connected with and  she was very spiritual and I was going through 

15:49

something where I um I had a stalker and  this stalker was like threatening me and 

15:55

and saying they were gonna you know come  to my house and I was really afraid and 

16:01

then I didn't feel like I was getting the support   that I needed for my family and I  was telling my friend about it and 

16:06

she said something about me playing the  victim and I was so angry I was like 

16:11

excuse me I'm being victimized currently  I'm terrified I don't feel asleep in my 

16:17

home and you're gonna say you know just  put positive energy in the universe and   don't play the victim like I expressed you know I hurt and I tried to work it  

16:25

through and she didn't have any interest  in you know kind of recognizing where I 

16:31

was at that I was in pain and and and  that I needed kind of just holding in   that and so I think there's and that now if I'm 10 years later I'm still just  

16:41

stewing and victim event mentality and and blaming and feeling powerless if  

16:46

that's a theme in my life where I'm I'm  engaging with the world from that place  I think there's a proper invitation to  step out of that and different ways to  

16:55

look and frame your experience but when you're in the midst of of acutely being   you know of an acute trauma to be told  that you're playing a victim just feels 

17:04

really antithetical to what I would  consider authentic spirituality those 

17:09

are more than people that I feel um  skeptical of as folks who are just 

17:15

you know oh just positive thinking all  the way down you know there's no room 

17:21

for anything other than that and I just  I just don't I think that I'm robust and 

17:29

um authentic spirituality has to  Encompass everything that that   doesn't mean every person has to be doing deep Shadow work to be awakened but I think a truly  

17:39

enlightened person has the space to hold people at different phases   in their process you know otherwise I I don't know if I trust you you know yeah  

17:49

no I I totally agree and I think um having you know the a kind of  

17:56

flexibility in our in our spiritual practice you know that that can totally  

18:03

Embrace pain trauma when necessary whether our own or  

18:10

that that of people we meet is I I couldn't agree more it's totally   healthy and it's I I think you know you  get especially in spiritual communities 

18:18

you'll get sort of that spiritual  communities that work on transcending 

18:24

self you know they'll you know they'll  have implicit sort of hierarchies based 

18:29

on how they can do on how much somebody  has tried is free of self you know so that 

18:35

anytime someone says pain oh you're  just you're just being hooked Again   by yourself I mean I I agree that can be really counterproductive and unhelpful  

18:45

and even sort of cruel and abusive in  worst case scenario and so I I I like 

18:51

the idea of a you know if we're gonna  if we're gonna Venture into spirituality 

18:57

that has got to be kindness first really  and it's got to be compassion kindness 

19:04

and and inclusiveness I I think you said  that beautifully earlier the way I see it  

19:09

actually these days in my mind there's a there's an old   um rather kind of little known Chinese Buddhist document that about practice you  

19:20

know that that says this is from the I think it's from the late fifth century in China so  

19:26

it's pretty early you know for Chinese  Buddhism which only starts about  second century BC uh sorry  CE and um it says something 

19:37

like um the path of practice is  like a cart track which has two ruts 

19:44

you know one for each wheel of the card  one rut is mindfulness and the other ra 

19:51

is Awakening so they make this sort of distinction  between mindfulness meaning the practice 

19:59

of gradual tending cultivating  developing healing the human psyche and 

20:06

then Awakening as you know  Awakening to what they call the 

20:12

way in Chinese Buddhism meaning  sort of the way of all things the 

20:19

arising of everything as one as empty as  appearance or whatever you know and what 

20:24

we awaken to an Awakening sort of thing but  they're saying you've got to always have both 

20:29

uh wheel ruts of the track I love that  I I live by that now actually so I I you 

20:37

know I I can I can say quality at  certain point in my training in in   actually in Zen I went through a deeper kind of experience that really didn't  

20:48

leave me for 12 years and then and then I had some traumatic stuff go on and in  

20:55

my life the people actually have somebody very very close to me and   um it it uh you know really it that experience that experience which I've been living  

21:06

very naturally and easily and just this  sense of everything always being arising 

21:12

out of out of this Wonder a mystery  you know it's always present for me   actually I mean maybe not absolutely always but I could always access it anytime but actually after  

21:22

12 years something happened that changed it and I couldn't access it and actually I didn't  

21:30

want to I wanted to just be totally grounded in my human heart and helping  

21:37

the best I could and and I needed to help my own heart as well as  

21:43

you know the hearts of those immediately around me but I feel it seems like it must  

21:49

be wise to always be open to new growth and development   and yeah and if there's a model of you know you can hit a real Awakening and  

22:00

there's no going back in a certain way does that close the door on you know  

22:06

New Growth so maybe it doesn't have to but perhaps it can you know   it feels like with any Mastery there are layers and dimensions that you gradually  

22:16

step into and awaken and flush out and you know things that at the beginning  

22:23

you don't even see because you're not  even awake enough to have a vision for 

22:29

what those might be so it just sounds  like you're stepping into a new phase   of your Mastery and it looks a little different but you're integrating new  

22:37

aspects of your Humanity into your  spiritual practice and that sounds  really rich and um kind of deep so well let's hope so I wouldn't call it my  

22:48

master it's more like my studentship  I suppose you know or Mike just my  learning my learning you know it's  one thing well I do say one of  

22:58

the nice things about having a real serious spiritual practice is it makes you a lifelong   learner which I think is a really good thing to be like in and it you know of course there's so  

23:08

many different traditions and the  one that I'm most deeply versed in  Zen it's not particularly popular these  days but it has some really good things  

23:16

in it one of which is it's got this map known as the ox herding pictures it's   like 10 pictures that set out this kind of map of spirituality and you know the  

23:27

third one is is is having an Awakening experience and the fourth one is kind of   uh integrating Awakening in our in our daily life and but then at a certain  

23:39

point we're supposed to just forget  about Awakening all together and just  lead a normal life without any hint of  Awakening in it you know but but they 

23:48

say it's rather hard to get there  but but that's the aspiration   to kind of folded it back into the soil you know what's the thing where's then the 

24:01

yeah yeah we've that would be very  relevant exactly before then or before   the beginning in Zen or something a mountain is a mountain during Zen a  

24:11

mountain is not a mountain after  Zen a mountain is again a mountain 

24:18

yeah there's something about the hero's  journey in that you know like ordinary 

24:24

mind kind of confrontation  with the unknown Awakening 

24:29

um shift in perception of what the world  is and then returning home with this 

24:35

newfound dimensionality of Awakened  awareness in ordinary life and ordinary 

24:42

reality yes yes and I think it's you  know it's interesting for me having had 

24:49

some very profound kind of Awakening  experiences there is a part of me that 

24:54

kind of has a little bit of a  perfectionism like I'm supposed   to always be walking in both worlds you know simultaneously so in my ordinary  

25:03

life always be awake to all this  dimensionality and and other kinds of  ways of seeing and relating with the  world mystically and you know perhaps  

25:12

there's you know time and a place for that um but in so many Traditions it  

25:18

seems like the remembering is essential and in some ways the forgetting is part of remembering  

25:25

do you have any thoughts on that wait when you say remembering just  

25:31

let me just get clear what do you what  are you referencing by that I'm thinking  about the the Hindu conception of you  know we're all basically I I don't know 

25:42

if I'll be able to articulate this  properly but my understanding is you   know the Hindu concept is that God um in his limitlessness uh kind of  

25:52

got bored there was nothing for him to do and so he had to gradually begin to play   hide and seek with himself by limiting  his own powers and awareness and he had 

26:02

to go go further and further as time  went on to forget that he was God to 

26:07

play this game with himself and then  come back to remembering and so we have 

26:13

in these Awakening experiences these oh  this kind of remembering of our infinite 

26:19

nature are you know Consciousness that is  universal um and that that's you know in some ways 

26:26

built into the game yes gochi  gochikochi yeah I would say it 

26:32

very much like that I think there  is a as as far as like sort of a 

26:39

spiritual perfectionism or something you know I  I actually feel quite sure that there is there 

26:45

there is a sort of a something that can happen  where we it's it's not that we stay in some 

26:54

Transcendent state but the thing that  differentiates the transcended state   from an ordinary State can drop away I know that can happen and it it can get  

27:03

knocked out like um like I don't know  what would be like a window pane or  something and and we we're just no longer um we no longer feel that sort of a quote-unquote  

27:17

or Transcendence state is different from a most ordinary   state that that can happen and then it's  the most amazing thing because then we're 

27:25

it's just normal it's just absolutely  ordinary but what ordinary is 

27:31

is endlessly sort of soaks the heart in  a kind of love in a just ordinary and to 

27:39

me that's that's getting well  it's it's a it's a it's a it's as 

27:44

far as I've gone and I and to to live  there is very possible I I know that 

27:49

from personal experience and it's so  beautiful this it's uh but it still   doesn't mean that there isn't there can't be psychological things that  

27:58

come up and little of course blind spots and little um you know patterns that we get caught  

28:05

in that can all still happen I and I'm sure there are people who go beyond   all that because a lot of people  report that there's a phase in uh 

28:14

spiritual practice where they've kind of  seen it and then they're back to this you  

28:19

know neurotic self and then they see it again and they're sort of flipping   back and forth between something  that seems more awakened and 

28:26

something that seems more I don't know what do  we call it non-awakened you know but actually and 

28:33

I'm in a course I'm very familiar with  that myself and as a yeah again I talk   about that a lot in my book but a point can happen where that Duality between  

28:43

sort of Awakened and very much not awakened actually that can drop away 

28:52

and it it's not like it then means we're  in some totally mind-blowing you know 

28:57

blissed out Transcendent state or something it's  actually it's not that it's called better than  

29:03

that it's just ordinary but   but somehow so whole and so peacefully total or something it's it's it's a  

29:15

that's to me that's that's the that's one of the great great   fruits of doing it that's when we're really  starting to integrate it actually I think 

29:24

yeah it reminds me of that uh quote by  Yates the world is full of magic things 

29:29

patiently waiting for our senses to grow  sharper and uh oh oh that's wonderful oh 

29:37

loneliness is sort of a hidden portal  into the Divine and that part of the 

29:44

difficulty with accessing that state of  peaceful magic of the ordinary daily is 

29:54

just that we move so quickly and I think  I I often wonder about the relationship 

30:01

between nervous system  regulation and enlightenment   because my sense is that just getting our systems calm is what wakes us up to these  

30:15

this other dimension of being that's beautifully put I totally  

30:21

agree I mean that that's I guess why so many of these Traditions have all this emphasis on  

30:26

being still and quiet and settling down yes and you're absolutely right oh man  

30:33

beautiful yeah one of the things I've found in my practice is that you know   I would try to like insert meditation or mindfulness or different practices in my  

30:43

overly programmed schedule and I didn't have this breakthrough I was like oh  

30:49

like the slowness has to be there needs to be a bird's eye you know component to  

30:56

this where I need to actually create  space in my life metaphorically to  breathe as well as you know specific  times of practice and of course the goal 

31:06

is to practice mindfulness and and these  states in our daily in every moment of 

31:13

our day and at the same time you know  just like if you're learning a sport   you need practice periods to really focus those skills in order to then you know more  

31:23

naturally have that muscle memory  to play properly if you need those  practice periods because we can't  efficiently integrate mindfulness uh 

31:32

into our day unless we can practice it  efficiently in isolation and isolated 

31:38

periods and so I've often kind of fallen  into thinking like oh I'm just going to   be more mindful in my daily life and there are little things I can do that  

31:46

help but if I don't have those practice  periods that are highly focused I find  it doesn't take and it doesn't integrate as  easily it's so easy to kind of just forget 

31:57

yeah I can totally relate to that and  I think another piece for me is like   when the momentum has kind of taken over you know and I'm actually kind of rushing inwardly  

32:09

as well as outwardly without recognizing it um I suppose for me the you know the  

32:14

mindfulness piece then is to just be cognizant of this momentum in my body  

32:20

you know and not try to stop it but just be cognizant of it and feel it and feel  

32:26

there's usually some pain in there  actually there's usually some little  twist of distress and little maybe a  little knot of distress and to feel that 

32:36

and to be kind to it and kind of bring  I suppose a kind of loving awareness to 

32:43

it um can make all the difference  so it doesn't it actually sort of 

32:49

I guess I'm just I'm I'm really  reinforcing and agreeing with you   and just I'm adding this other thing that I find really helpful which is like okay  

32:59

it's not like I've got to totally slow  down now Henry you know it's more like  okay let's just let's just know what's actually  going on and yeah I may need to I may need to 

33:09

stop physically be still for a  moment to get a chance to actually 

33:15

know what that is and then but then just  to find yeah there's this there's this uh 

33:22

yeah kind of like a momentum in my body you  know like a flywheel or something wants to   keep turning and uh I very much relate to that yeah yeah and  

33:33

it makes me think of you know if the way that you were speaking   about you know just getting to know this  part and we don't have to you know slow it 

33:41

down necessarily it's just bringing  kindness and awareness it reminds me   of some of the work I'm doing in ifs right now where you know we presume that every  

33:50

part of us has a positive intention and there are no bad parts of us they all serve  

33:56

a purpose um and by getting to know them by listening by asking them questions by giving  

34:03

them the attention that they need  they can integrate in a more balanced  fashion whereas if we ignore them  or we try to make them go away  

34:12

um we we think they're bad then they become more extreme and there's this   kind of paradoxical nature to you know  like the paradoxical theory of change is 

34:21

the more we accept ourselves as we are  the more we could change and so there's   that kind of Phenomenon with this is like the more I go oh Brooke you need  

34:30

to slow down then I make myself bad I  exhale that part of myself I create this  tension that what makes me want to keep  going fast to avoid conflict so there's 

34:40

this kind of you know confounding  process whereby we try to change   ourselves and it actually Stokes the fuel exactly problematic you know ways that  

34:50

things that we're trying to avoid it's sort of like a an alcoholic a shame cycle they   feel terrible about themselves so they drink and then they drink and they feel  

34:59

worse about themselves so then they need  to drink more you know that kind of it's   a similar phenomenon these these cycles that we have of sort of self-rejection  

35:08

um that only feed more self-projection more anxiety more conflict more disowned  

35:14

parts and splits that the problems that we have in our lives and so the antidote  

35:19

rather is to welcome in these parts get  to know them listen to them so that they  can integrate and and be part of our  Board of advisors without calling 

35:29

without any one part calling the shots  in isolation and so I love how you know 

35:34

ifs and mindfulness go really beautifully  together because it's just a systematic  

35:39

way of getting to know the different parts of ourselves   that's almost just a a slight Twist on some of the mindfulness practices where you're actually  

35:50

speaking to these parts instead of  just noticing them and I find that  really rich because I think that these  parts do need to speak and we need to  

35:58

listen to them and that's a part of what helps us heal is really understanding   all of the different you know  unconscious parts of ourselves that 

36:06

we've disowned and denied I I couldn't agree more  and I think it's one of the most beautiful things 

36:12

actually is when we um when we  feel the pain of a part that 

36:18

we don't want to own and and welcome and  then that shifts into loving it I think 

36:24

that's one of the most beautiful things  and then and then the very pain becomes   very beautiful you know it's all about a heart so we we're recovering our more and  

36:36

more terrain and territory of our own heart as as I feel it you know and I love ifs by  

36:43

the way it's a great system it really is I I feel yeah that's beautiful   recovering the terrain of our heart reclaiming more and more territory ex  

36:53

broadening the expanse of our internal Horizons and you know capacity of what  

36:59

we can hold uh as a really beautiful note to end on thank you so much for  

37:04

your time it's wonderful to be new and connect I'm so grateful I love this  

37:10

conversation any final words that you'd  like to share before we we say goodbye  well I want to thank you very much and  I I you know it's so great to talk with  

37:19

somebody like you Brooke who's really interested in exactly the same sort of  

37:25

area of human development and or areas that I am it's lovely to connect like  

37:30

that thank you so wonderful I feel like will have many more conversations on the   horizon we didn't even get into poetry  today so I kind of like a different 

37:39

podcast on that well um thank you so so much  Henry and I'll we'll do it again soon okay  

37:45

thank you so much [Music] 

38:02

thank you