Intuition or Intellect? Featuring Helane Wahbeh

On this week’s episode of Waking Up, I sat down with Helané Wahbeh of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), which is dedicated to the study of human interconnectedness, altered states of consciousness, and noetic states through scientific and experiential methodologies. 

We dive into intuition and intellect, using discernment, taboos related to spirituality, and much more. 

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

0:01

so often we can be attached to the  outcome you know and it's like okay I 

0:06

want it to look this particular way and  but often people find it I found this 

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too when I engage in that intuitive  process the outcome is totally not what 

0:18

I thought it was going to be and it's like  infinitely better than I could have even   imagined and so just the process of engaging with our intuition I  

0:29

think brings forth opportunities that we couldn't have thought of with our mind foreign 

0:40

hello and welcome to waking up with  Brooke Sproul my guest today is   Helene Walby she is the director of research for The Institute of noetic Sciences Helene  

0:51

welcome thank you so much Brooke it's a pleasure to be here with you today I am really looking  

0:57

forward to diving in just before  we get started just introduce our  listeners to what noetic means I think  some of them probably are well versed 

1:06

and others may have never heard that term so  uh could you explain that that word to people   and and what your Institute does  

1:14

yes so noetic actually originates from the Greek that means gnosis or inner  

1:21

knowing so it's really about our inner wisdom our inner knowing and this kind  

1:27

of felt sense of understanding something and The Institute of noetic Sciences has  

1:34

a really cool origination story it was founded by Edgar Mitchell who was an  

1:40

Apollo 14 astronaut and the sixth person to walk on the moon he was an engineer  

1:46

by training an astronaut very linear thinking type person and he went to the  

1:53

moon he was standing on the moon he did his whole job and then he was in the  

1:59

Space Capsule coming home and the Space Capsule was spinning and he would see  

2:04

the Earth and the Sun and the stars and  he just kept rotating and he moved into 

2:09

this incredibly Transcendent Oneness  experience where he felt like he was 

2:16

part of everything and  everything was part of him now 

2:21

this was completely foreign to him he'd never  experienced anything like that before in his  

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life and so when he came back to Earth he made it   his mission to try to discover what this interconnectedness was and how we could  

2:38

study it and encourage people to feel it too so in 1973 he founded the Institute  

2:46

of noetic Sciences which has been fulfilling that mission of studying   and educating about interconnectedness for 50 years now we're celebrating our 50th year  

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anniversary which is really really exciting and currently our focus  

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is on this beautiful blend of direct experience so teaching people to have  

3:09

noetic experiences to know what they feel like on some level and then the  

3:16

science which I'm the head of the  science department doing rigorous  research on on this interconnectedness  and various aspects of it that is 

3:26

incredible I did not know that story wow  how how amazing so tell me what are some 

3:32

of the practices and what are the  uh kind of channels that you use to   teach people how to access these states of consciousness so our experience Department 

3:44

Works in various ways to bring noetics  into daily life and we have basic 

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courses that are very much inquiry  driven you know empowering each person 

4:00

as their own Explorer and their own  journey to experience what the noetic 

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means to them so we have a course they  just created called the noetics 101 we 

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have the possibility  accelerator we have a new course 

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um that will come up soon called the  noetic signature and then another thing 

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that we do is partner with already  existing uh Workshop delivers to 

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um bring forth programming for example  we've partnered with Robert Wagner to do 

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lucid dreaming workshops um just  as an example so those are some 

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of the things that are experienced department  works on and then sorry we also have 

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um webinars on Fridays that are no cost that anyone can attend to learn  

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about this information and those often highlight our science and the various studies  

5:05

that we're doing looking into these modalities amazing and what are some of the most compelling  

5:12

findings that you're discovering  in your research there have  been some studies not a lot but some  studies that pit one type of meditation 

5:22

against another and in general  I think it's an individual 

5:28

um preference on some level that there is  benefit to be received from any type of 

5:35

meditation but that which one you  kind of individually resonate with May 

5:40

support you to nurture that practice  more consistently we also know that 

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different types of meditation affect  our bodies in different ways so you know 

5:52

concentrative meditation versus open  Focus awareness affects the brain 

5:58

differently and so there's  some really nice reviews of 

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um what's called a functional magnetic  resonance imaging fmri studies looking 

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at how the brain is affected during  different meditation types you know 

6:14

weight lifting your your brain into your  mind you're working out a specific muscle  

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and based on the goals you want to achieve or the outcomes you're   expecting you could choose different  types and the other thing that I share 

6:29

with people is it may not be consistent  throughout your life you know let's say   you're really into a specific type of meditation right now in six months you'd  

6:39

be like okay I want to do something  different and that might be just your  own intuition guiding you for what  you're needing in that moment for  

6:48

your own growth yes absolutely and uh collaborative of mine John verbiki talks  

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about uh having an Ecology of practices  so and that to me is like it's almost 

6:58

like diversification right like having a  very Diversified portfolio of practices where  

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you can actually be nimble with your practice and you can begin   to develop the awareness of when to  use what practices right like in some 

7:12

moments you might need to to do some  somatic work in some moments you might   want to uh be in nature like there's different practices that can suit you  

7:21

at different times in your life or even  in different moments moments in time uh  during the same time of your life and  so I think it's really wonderful to  

7:29

understand what the effects of each type of practice is so that you can optimize  

7:34

them to to what you're needing in any  given moment in time absolutely and that 

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really helps us cultivate our  flexibility and resilience if we   have this little tool bag of you know practices that we can tap into then  

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I personally feel more research  resourced knowing that in times of  stress or you know if I'm facing 

7:58

difficult decisions then I can choose  what seems most effective and most 

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supportive in that moment and that  really beautifully dovetails with my 

8:12

channeling and intuition work  because I Empower people to 

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tune in well what is my best practice  right now for me in this moment knowing 

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that I have this large tool bag of  modalities that I could use which one is 

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going to support me the most right now  and people who begin along this road 

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find that it's so it's like a adventure  because you never know what is going to 

8:42

show up for you and what your ego mind  might tell you is what you should be 

8:47

doing right now is actually not what  you intuitively come to right absolutely 

8:55

that's so important in our culture in  Western culture we emphasize the mind 

9:01

you know the left brain kind of rational  Consciousness but actually the research 

9:06

shows that in Neuroscience that the left  brain is really meant to be subservient   to the right brain to the intuitive to the um you know aspect of our Consciousness  

9:16

that's much more spacious and open and you know some might call it spiritual   and we've inverted the Paradigm and in  my experience as a psychotherapist that 

9:25

inversion causes so much damage  and self-alienation and difficulty 

9:31

navigating life through kind of an  intuitive ability to trust oneself now 

9:36

culturally we also are seeing this  other extreme that's happening too   where there's people who are kind of conspiratorial and and overly trusting  

9:45

their intuition but I think that's a  reaction to this history of being told  that everything should be logical rational  um and that in some ways isn't that's 

9:57

just not working for people uh it's not  supposed to work and but and and it sets 

10:02

up a sort of adversarial relationship  with ourselves when we are trying to   operate from a place of logic when logic is more supposed to be a checks and balance  

10:11

right it's it's supposed to be like  okay I'm having this intuition but  let me make sure that makes sense let  me look at this let me step outside  

10:19

side of it so it's meant to be a an ancillary tool rather than kind of the in the driver's  

10:24

seat and so it sounds like part of  your work is really getting people  back into that inner knowing bodily  intuition kind of uh capacity to 

10:33

navigate their lives and you know not that we  don't there's of course the ego has its place 

10:39

um but that it's not it's no longer the  voice that we're listening to primarily   does that does that sound right did I get that right absolutely I mean the  

10:48

intellect is a profoundly useful tool and is just so incredible that are you  

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know as humans we have this astounding intellect that can support us in so  

11:01

many ways and I think you're absolutely correct in the imbalance that we have been in  

11:08

um historically in the west and that there is I think right now we're being  

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called to come into greater balanced with our right and left sides with you  

11:21

know honoring our intuition exactly like you said doesn't mean you throw your   intellect out the window we must  be incredibly Discerning about the 

11:31

information that's coming in and where  it's coming in from and yet not giving 

11:36

one you know necessarily more power  over the other but I feel like we really 

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Thrive when there is a Synergy between  the intellect and the intuition 

11:47

absolutely that yin and yang that  optimal dynamic balance and tension and 

11:53

conversation between those two parts it's it's  wonderful to hear you say that because I think  

11:58

most people kind of either glorify one or   the other in a way that feels unhealthy and it's  wonderful to hear you say yes that you know inner 

12:07

knowing is is profound and necessary but  also this intellect is beautiful and has   its own purpose at the table and so you know the more we integrate all of our  

12:16

parts the more you know profound  our experiences humans are the more  effectively we can navigate our lives so say  more about channeling you know what what is  

12:25

channeling for those of us who may not be familiar with it   yes so I Define channeling in kind of a unique way I use this broad  

12:36

umbrella term which you could also equate essentially with Intuition or extended  

12:42

human capacities but it's this process of accessing information and energy from  

12:48

beyond our conventional Notions of time and space and they can appear receptive  

12:53

or expressive now that's a big mouthful I'll just kind of tease that apart a little bit  

13:00

um most people have experienced some type of channeling phenomenon and the  

13:08

way that it shows up is quite diverse and it exists on a spectrum so on one  

13:15

side you have intuitive hunches that just about everybody could say they've   had some intuition I just knew it or  I just felt it or I just had this got 

13:25

hunched to turn right instead of  left you know most people can say   that they've experienced that and I would call that channeling then on the other  

13:33

side of the spectrum you have things  like mediumship or trans channeling 

13:39

which are more rare and mediumship is  the belief that you can communicate with 

13:45

supposed deceased humans and trans  channeling the Channeler believes that 

13:51

they act as a vehicle for a supposed  non-physical being to speak through them 

13:58

I also call that channeling and then  there's everything in between like 

14:03

having a dream and then having that  dream come true or just somehow knowing 

14:10

what someone was thinking   um for who's like lives in the next state you just got this impression of  

14:18

their mental thoughts or just knowing what someone's feeling  

14:24

there's such a wide variety of this knowingness beyond our five senses and  

14:32

there have been numerous names ascribed to this human uh experience and in this  

14:38

situation I call it I channeling and we've done a number of different studies   looking at the variance nuances of it how common it is how it works is the  

14:50

content useful and we have a whole program at ions that delves into that  

14:57

yeah I think it's so tricky so many of these terms have a lot of baggage attached to   them right psychic or Channel like there are these connotations of basically con artists claiming to  

15:09

know things and manipulating people  out of money how do you deal with  that you know how do you kind of um  I guess get people to trust that what 

15:18

you're often offering is sincere and  that you don't fall into one of those   categories of of some of those kind of associations that some some people have  

15:28

yeah the taboos are really intense and you know one of the first things I  

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noticed when I started working at ions was the number of terms that people had  

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for these experiences and even the terms themselves like if you said psychic to  

15:48

someone and said hey what does that mean  you know you ask that 10 people that you  might end up with 10 different  definitions or medium you know what's a 

15:57

medium you might end up with so many different  definitions there's a lot of confusion around 

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um what I think is an innate human  capacity of being able to tap into this 

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inner wisdom and the tab is  unfortunately block us from 

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having transparent conversations about  experiences that most of us are having 

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and those taboos exist um you  know I have deep compassion for uh 

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the taboos because a lot of it I think is fear  because if you think about what it means to us as 

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humans to be able to read other people's  minds or pick up on others emotions 

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there is a uh fear around that because maybe  we don't trust our neighbor to know what 

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we're thinking Etc and it also doesn't  align with our current dominant Paradigm 

17:02

so materialism or the idea that only the  physical exists is what is King right 

17:10

now and it is Shifting we're kind of  in this transition of moving from a 

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materialist World View to a  post-materialist worldview that does 

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allow for the non-physical to exist we see that in cosmology and quantum  

17:29

physics all these incredible um uh experiments and research  

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that has come true about our uh interconnectedness like you look  

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at entangled photons and all of that  research that we can get into if you  want to but before we move  into fully this new world 

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view um all of these channeling experiences  shouldn't exist there are impossible 

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according to a materialist worldview so  often the taboos are because people it 

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just doesn't there's a disconnect it's  like oh that's impossible so you are 

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making it up or you're having a  hallucination or there's some sort of mental   health issue that's happening and then the third major reason I think for  

18:20

the taboos is you know Humanity has persecuted people who have exhibited  

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these capacities for Millennia and so I think there is this you know ancestral uh  

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PTSD if you will it's like no no I'm not going to come out of the closet   about being able to see colors around  people because I'm going to be harmed in 

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some way so that's what we're facing right  now and it's little by little that we can 

18:54

open that up but that wasn't your  true question I'm gonna get back   to your question now which is how can you tell the difference between a charlatan and someone  

19:05

who's truly offering these gifts and I think it  

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is the same way you would discern any sort of good practitioner so you know  

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you yourself are a therapist how do  people know if you're really good you  get recommendations word of mouth  you're incredibly Discerning about  

19:25

the information they give you to see if it resonates if it's actionable if it supports  

19:31

your well-being or maybe it doesn't and you know we have  

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this discernment in every field you know that we uh try to engage with right now  

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there's Bad actors and then there's authentic genuine people so right we  

19:50

have to use the same skills there are good dentists and bad dentists and   they're good psychics and bad psychics  you know good lawyers I mean it's it's 

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like it's just like anything and of  course you hear about the edge cases   um you know that are extreme and then there's this baggage because of our  

20:06

materialist Paradigm as you mentioned  um so it makes sense that people have a  little skepticism you know and and  rightly so in terms of you know wanting  

20:15

to be Discerning I think one of the conundra of you know our professions   is that people who are coming to us are often in a very vulnerable States not  

20:24

always but often and they're actually in  a state where their intuitive knowing is 

20:29

a bit compromised and so they may not  have they may not feel able to discern 

20:35

um for themselves and those situations  so I hear stories all the time where   people go to therapists for many years and they sort of defer to the person as  

20:43

the expert even though something doesn't  feel right with them they kind of go oh  maybe that's my problem I better  just stick with it this person  

20:50

has these credentials and so it's a little challenging when somebody is coming to someone  

20:56

for help to heal their intuitive system and that they don't even possess the kind of capacity  

21:04

to navigate that in a way that protects themselves and I think   that's one of the ways that therapy  gets a bad rap is is because of that 

21:12

um and so I I don't know if it's  similar in your field but I imagine   there might be some parallels there yes it's so important I mean I speak  

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to this point quite a bit about this projection of authority outside of  

21:27

ourselves and I think that's one of the  beautiful gifts about the message of  channeling is and noetic wisdom that you  know even if it does feel uncomfortable 

21:36

or very new or different or you don't  feel a sense of trust in your own inner 

21:42

guidance that there is a path to help  strengthen that and that's not to say 

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you don't get feedback from or support  from people outside of you but that you 

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have your own inner compass that you  can nurture and nourish and learn how to 

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work with that also gives you  information to be able to support you 

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um you know in the mediumistic and trans  channeling field you know you hear all 

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the time oh this was channeled or oh I  got this from a medium like everything 

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that they say is true and should be  acted on it's like no no no no no   you know just because it comes in that form doesn't mean that you project your  

22:28

Authority onto it you still use your discernment to see if it's useful for  

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you yeah I like to see it as just one data point you know if I'm working with   someone in in energy healing and they're  giving me feedback or messages I go okay 

22:43

let me let me see how my system feels  about that let me let me be open to that 

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as a possibility without making it  Sovereign you know so I love that about 

22:54

you know not giving we should never give  away our inner Authority and yet I think   there's a little bit of a challenge  there too because you know some of the 

23:01

spiritual life is about  surrender and trust and sometimes 

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um kind of letting go of our ego based  knowing as we talked about earlier and   and so sometimes you know when you're apprenticing yourself to someone there  

23:14

is an element of suspending your own  judgment to an extent though it has to I  think there has to be that trust and  there always has to be some part of  

23:22

you that's kind of checking in and making sure that um you know that you that you're  

23:27

not going down the wrong path because  otherwise that's how people get you know  enrolled in Colts so exactly and there's  always a reassessment you know so just 

23:36

because you tune in and you said yes  it's important for me to be working   with this person doesn't mean that that's true forever you know you keep checking  

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in a month later someone's not feeling  quite right and it's like okay it's time  for me to move on I got what I needed for that  month and now it's time for me to shift and you  

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know people often ask well how do I know   if it's my ego mind just you know giving 

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me direction or if this really is you  know my inner wisdom guidance and um 

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I think it really is a practice and  yet what I found in my own practice and 

24:14

hearing from others that when  you um follow actionable wisdom 

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and it is really kind of your highest  and next best step that you will find 

24:28

greater ease Greater Joy synchronicities  opportunity increased feeling of flow 

24:36

and it's like like you're taking this nice  breath of fresh air it's like wow okay this is 

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really moving and when it is ego driven  it's like you're like hitting your head 

24:49

against a wall and it feels difficult and it's  not working and those are kind of those micro 

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um you know those micro decisions  to feel okay am I really like on   this guided path or not I love that yeah I think that you know there are heuristics  

25:07

and you're talking about some of the  heuristics of how do we you know know  which is which and for me it's like  what you're talking about in terms of  

25:14

the feedback and the experience of it you know as part of how we discern and part   of it for me is also qualitative it's  like I can tell when my mind is talking 

25:24

to me and when it's all up here and I  can and and so for me the the ego is 

25:29

often kind of thought based and in the mind  and the inner knowing inner wisdom is more   it's not logical it's more of a feeling um and a the sensation  

25:39

or something in the body and so that's another heuristic that I use and then  

25:45

kind of to add to what you were saying in terms of that kind of feedback piece   of you know what happens as a result of  you operating from each space I kind of 

25:54

think of it that yeah let's see  I always say you know when you   do when you make decisions out of the ego or out of anxiety or fear you kind  

26:04

of fail even if you succeed because your experience even if you get the outcome   you want you're not actually at peace  you're not actually happy you're not 

26:12

actually following your kind of true  destiny and what your soul really needs   whereas when you follow your gut when you follow your intuition and your you  

26:21

know what your soul is calling from you  you succeed even when you fail even if 

26:27

the outcome that you want doesn't happen you  find that you have a sense of peace and flow  

26:33

and ease and so that feels in some ways like the essence of   spirituality is that surrender to this inner knowing that isn't  

26:43

logical kind of yields this fruit that is useful and joyful and beautiful even in the face of  

26:53

circumstances not lining up the way we think and so I think that   that is a really you know those are  some really helpful ways to frame 

27:01

this discernment process that we're  talking about this navigational you   know process and how we use various aspects of ourselves to make decisions and to engage  

27:13

with our lives in ways that are  the most meaningful and joyful and  useful that's such a beautiful point and  such an important point because so often we 

27:24

can be attached to the outcome you know  and it's like okay I want it to look   this particular way and but often people find and I found this too when I engage  

27:35

in that intuitive process the outcome is totally not what I thought it was going  

27:40

to be and it's like infinitely better  than I could have even imagined and so 

27:46

just the process of engaging with  our intuition I think brings forth 

27:52

opportunities that we couldn't have  thought of with our mind because we   didn't even know they existed and it's like oh okay I mean just me sitting here  

28:01

where I'm sitting doing the work if you'd asked me you know 15 years ago  

28:06

what are you going to be doing for your  career where are you going to be living  never in my wildest imagination what  I've said I would be studying channeling 

28:15

living in Washington state on this beautiful  property like never I never would have 

28:21

come up with that so it's it's a really  magical process I think absolutely yeah 

28:27

and and so much of the spiritual life is  that surrendering the ego surrendering 

28:33

control understanding that our plans are  not necessarily what we think is best 

28:38

for our lives is not necessarily best  uh David White says what you can plan is 

28:43

too small for you to live yes I love  that and and I actually wrote a poem 

28:49

that said um offer your heart to the  unknown it is just stating within you   a life larger than you can dream yes you know so that that apprenticeship to the  

29:00

unknown to the mystery to the uncertainty to the   um to our own powerlessness in a way the Paradox is that the more we surrender  

29:09

and kind of assume a disposition of you know powerless doesn't quite feel right  

29:15

but a disposition of of faith and  surrender there's this power that  emerges this experience of being more  empowered that's quite paradoxical right  

29:24

it's like we don't we don't experience empowerment by trying to grab control  

29:30

we experience empowerment and freedom through surrender and control and so  

29:37

um yeah I just I just love this conversation I love um just kind of trying to  

29:43

you know trying to remind ourselves which tools to use and um and what is actually  

29:50

most effective uh these parts of our lives you know when people hear the word  

29:56

surrender they can often feel really  frightened or overwhelmed by that and 

30:02

I know in my own path that word really  scares like well what do you mean how 

30:08

can you actually surrender and let  go and you know just committing and 

30:14

intending um to be on that  path of and and like you 

30:21

said when when you surrender it's not a  powerlessness it is a uh a felt sense of 

30:28

just trust I'm gonna let go of the  outcome of what it looks like but I'm 

30:33

setting clear intentions of how I want  to be and how I want to lead and guide 

30:39

my life and and letting go of the  results and I've just been shown over 

30:45

and over and over again so many instances  that letting go of the outcome brings me 

30:54

what I need and more and so now the idea  of surrender doesn't scare me anymore 

31:00

because I'm absolutely trusting that  what will show up will show up and it's 

31:05

often not when my ego mind thinks it  should you know it's always like right 

31:12

exactly when I need it which is not six  months ahead of time it's like right   exactly when you need it and so I guess what I want to share with the audience  

31:20

too is that you can do micro practices of surrender you know with a simple  

31:28

commitment and intention around you know some simple decision in your life I don't  

31:34

know like what you're gonna have for  dinner or when where you're going to  go with your friend there's ways to with  intention Clearly say I want to practice 

31:43

this in some small baby step away so  that I can become I can exercise my 

31:49

trust and surrender muscle that it doesn't have  to be this big huge thing or big life decisions 

31:56

um it's funny that you said that because  that was exactly what I was thinking is   this is a muscle that's built over time  yes with practice that gets stronger and 

32:04

stronger and so you start small and then you  start to see uh kind of the results and then   you can trust it more and more yeah so it's so wonderful well  

32:14

um it's so wonderful to have you today thank you  so much for your time any final  words for uh Before We Say Goodbye 

32:21

I would just like to Inspire  and invite the audience to get 

32:28

really curious about their own intuitive  capacities that if you haven't already 

32:34

and just maybe if it's a minute  or two a day just sit in quiet and 

32:42

um be inquisitive about what your  specific channeling abilities look like 

32:49

do you feel it in your body like  Brooke does do you see colors do you 

32:55

um uh have intuitive dreams what  does it look like for you and 

33:02

uh have fun with what you get I love  that well thank you so much Elena uh 

33:09

wonderful wonderful being with you today and uh   please like comment or subscribe to  waking up here and uh check out the 

33:17

Institute of noetic Sciences for more information  on Milani's work thanks so much thank you 

33:34

thank you