Creativity as a Spiritual Practice with Micheal o Suilleabhain

On this week's episode of Waking Up with Brooke Sprowl, Micheal o Suilleabhain joins in on a conversation about Creativity as a Spiritual Practice.

 For the latest updates, offerings, and ponderings visit www.brookesprowl.com

Transcript

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learning to love the sound of your own  voice is almost a taboo subject really 
0:06
and I did that early mercifully for  myself I must have known that the walls 
0:12
were closing in on all other aspects of  my of my psyche and I said what can I 
0:19
what do I have here you know what what  can I learn what can I love in myself   and I knew I could just about sing and I knew I could drum so I was like you know  
0:28
what I'm going to stop the rot here I'm  just going to love it that's it I'm just  gonna love it and uh and I learned to love  the sound of my own voice and I learned to  
0:36
make music when I was alone and that just speaks for   itself and the poem is called early music just brings us to a place which we can all  
0:46
recognize in ourselves [Music] 
0:54
hello and welcome to waking up  with Brook sprawl my guest today   is the wonderful Michal O Sullivan behal welcome hello everybody hello from County  
1:04
Clare in Ireland yes I've met mihal uh traveling with David White in Italy this  
1:10
summer and we had a beautiful time  playing music and writing poetry and  walking for Miles along the Italian  landscape and Michal is just a beautiful 
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soul an incredible poet an incredible  vocalist as well and so I wanted to to 
1:26
connect and see um see what see what  emerges in our conversation today 
1:33
um Paul talk to me about your work  as a poet and a vocalist and how that 
1:38
connects with your spiritual practice and  spirituality ah thanks so much yeah well  
1:43
where we met one of the unexpected turns that my vocation as a musician  
1:50
I started as a drummer which is a an archetypal thing I suppose and uh then  
1:56
ran to the front of the stage and became  a singer uh all sorts of singing and  cheap tricks I was uh guilty of doing on  stage and um became quite virtuosic and 
2:08
quite funny actually and um humor has been a a a definite element of my journey uh both the the 
2:19
honing of The Craft of comedy and humor  and then also trying to uh smooth out 
2:24
its virtuosity in my life as well and  one of the unexpected turns uh where we 
2:30
met as a guide which is very much the  physically taking people places you know 
2:36
of course uh being a singer I was very  struck early on coming from a drumming 
2:42
background and noticing people dropping down  into another space when a rhythm would be put 
2:49
forward but when one sings acapella  as it is an Italian but um when it's 
2:55
unaccompanied when one sings the solo  voice people drop into a reverie uh 
3:01
almost immediately it's a very powerful  thing and it for me for a long time 
3:06
um keeping my eyes closed was the only  option when I would sing uh or I would 
3:13
or I would get quite emotional actually if I met  eyes with people I would get very very emotional   very quickly and the same thing  
3:21
happened when I first started reading  poetry as well I would have to keep my  eyes closed but there Comes A Time Of  course when one has to open their eyes and  
3:29
show their virtuosity you know overhear themselves and my spiritual practice  
3:35
around around performance of music and poetry is still happening to be honest I   feel like I was asleep a lot of my life  like many of us I woke up I'm now 38 
3:45
years old that has been a great  thing when I opened my eyes again and 
3:51
overheard myself of course in Psychotherapy you're  supposed to overhear yourself but yesterday I was 
3:56
working with a person online in these  poetry conversations that I have and 
4:01
they were working with a performance  coach this is just yesterday and the   performance coach asked that person do you hear yourself when you speak  
4:11
and that really struck me you know  because performance is the art of 
4:17
hearing yourself speak of course and  speaking and and all life but also   there's a an element where you're supposed to let things flow and  
4:25
enter into a flow State and that then is  letting go of of listening to yourself 
4:30
so you're not supposed to do more of either  um so you you yourself enter into a kind 
4:36
of a reverie I suppose and music  and poetry has always brought me   into a ritual Space Music especially and then David quite my collaboration with him I see it  
4:47
as a ritual space as well really in a literary sense but uh so   I was always uncomfortable being in in a spiritual place but always had the currency of it 
5:00
so it left me feeling like a fraud actually  for many many years and that I was unworthy  
5:05
that I was that I was a singer I I hadn't of course   like most of our blockages I hadn't  articulated this to myself yet but um 
5:15
I just felt all the more like I was singing  beautifully but I wasn't walking the walk   you know I was um I was like a hedonist like most people in  
5:23
their 20s I was just a hedonist and um  quite negative and cheap laughs and I 
5:30
wasn't dropping down to that to  that level I was singing at you know   so that's a long answer to to to the spirituality my relationship to the  
5:39
spirituality of my creation that's where  you're supposed to be uncomfortable you  know what you shared about um  closing your eyes I relate to that as 
5:48
a singer um you know there's something  around this vulnerable expression and uh 
5:55
outward expression where you're  simultaneously wanting to be seen   and then not wanting to be seen in your vulnerability in your expression and so  
6:04
that is part of the struggle of an  artist who's who's kind of birthing  their own voice and their own expression  so I very much relate to that as well as 
6:15
you know the the heaviness and the  depth of what we bring forth as artists 
6:22
there's a tremendous weight  to it and it becomes very 
6:28
um yeah that vulnerability is is is heavy the flip side of course is artists who  
6:36
kind of love themselves a little bit too  much which is which is a marginally more  repulsive than than one who's too apologetic  in fact I have a poem I I have one 
6:46
collection of poetry and there is a poem about  just this thing actually it's called the virtuoso 
6:52
and um I've always just loved the idea of  when I was a kid there was a very famous 
6:59
violinist called Paganini an Italian virtuoso  on the on the violin and they they said that  
7:05
he sold his soul to the devil to have to to have   this skill at vile violent and he would play for thousands of people and as a kid I was always like  
7:14
but his soul is sold for the devil  for a beautiful art form you know  and they often say that about virtuosas  or or that or about those those brilliant  
7:23
that they must have done a deal um a short-term deal you   know with a long-term price to pay and uh that really set me off and  
7:32
I remember I must have been very very  young when I heard that uh the tale of  classical music of course but uh another  thing that I suffered from as well a lot  
7:42
of my life is a belief in like the Excellence of my craft or or the   spiritual nature of it but just these um uh unconscious apologies would come from my  
7:54
mouth before or or uh when you cheapen an experience   which my mother never did and my father  used to often read poetry before he'd 
8:03
play piano um as it's kind of a  setting as a way of bringing it 
8:08
um and it's a good way of stopping  yourself making a joke or something and 
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um the poem is called the virtuoso are  dedicated to all of us waking up here   and it goes I don't care if you're sorry 
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I don't care if you're sorry nor do you  even anymore why a tone for your gifts 
8:28
Express remorse for your  ability begging pardon in public 
8:33
be Instead The unrepentant Virtue also  for you choose to stand showing us the 
8:39
spirit stir then fill and overflow within  you the spirit does not ask forgiveness nor 
8:47
permission and upon your stage you can do no  wrong get out of the way we love what you have 
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and need no reminder of our sentence  here on Earth please just set us free 
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I love that get out of the way getting  out of the way really struck me because   what I think is true authentic art and writing is is really becoming a sort of  
9:15
channel for spirit and quite often we  can't even explain where we're getting 
9:20
our ideas where the source is  when I was in Italy with you all   it was like poems were just channeling through me I didn't even know where  
9:29
they were coming from and typically  it'll take me years to write a poem   and rewrite and edit it and it was like I was writing these you know first drafts  
9:37
that were you know only needed a few  minor tweaks it was like they were just  gifted to me from above it didn't feel  like I was writing them and and that you 
9:47
know for me is is a really powerful  spiritual expression is when the artist 
9:52
was through us and it's really just a  matter of getting our own ego out of the way 
9:57
the the element of permission around  creativity is is is very close to my 
10:03
heart you know that and I found that  working with my collection of poetry 
10:09
there's a section in it under  mythology and coming from Ireland 
10:14
we have such a rich mythology it's not  as well uh recorded as Greek or Roman uh 
10:21
stories so in Irish mythology you kind  of have Gods like enter stage left of   random stories to kind of come in and out and nobody knows why or what the  
10:30
relationships are or anything and then  later of course you have St Patrick  coming in and saving our gods and the  Gods coming in and saving Saint Patrick  
10:37
and all of this type of thing a big uh overlap but uh I found that working with  
10:43
mythology as a poet you know there's part of our um part of our uh 
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art form is to work with shared archetypal  Energies and then mythology you know one one has 
10:59
to have a strand of that in one's own  poetry if one is to you know pursue   the craft at least privately and it's just great material you know you don't need to  
11:08
do much uh you don't need to do much  uh Research into a certain God or a 
11:15
certain story to to write a good old  poem and to see your own reflection in it 
11:20
so it's very popular as material but in in  Ireland I was suffering from a serious lack  
11:27
of of a permissive uh essence you know   um in Ireland like we we work with  mythology in kindergarten and early 
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um primary school or or or first level  school when we're kids and then there's   a there's a large gap and then of course you're supposed to do it in third level so  
11:49
or even a PhD level you know you have to choose it and um so it's kind of like an  
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infantilized the mythology or else it's institutionalized and there's no ownership   between it and and I don't know  why that is I mean in Ireland we we 
12:05
have this thing called post colonialism  where you're like getting over the   trauma of being taken over or colonized you could blame it on that that we're we  
12:13
infantilized the beautiful archetypes in  our own culture but I don't know why it  is either maybe the Catholic Church you know  they were so influential in our education  
12:22
system for so long that you know it was it's seen as   um risque like a lot of it once you dig  beneath the surface of any mythological Canon 
12:31
there's a lot of a lot of hot and  steamy stuff going on and um so 
12:37
it I I was coming to poetry as an  adult looking for that permission to   work with with mythology and uh and found it very challenging and uh so yes I I know what you mean  
12:48
and after a while the Damned the soul Dam burst uh and I got a few poems out of it  
12:54
but it took me a lot of work yeah it took  me a lot of work so but that permission you  felt in Italy yes and this podcast came out of  that um you were feeling more than than just 
13:05
the poetic Muse uh it was a whole new chapter  opening up for you around then yeah what 
13:12
you said earlier about this tension  between hearing yourself and not   hearing yourself in these artistic spaces I think is so profound because there is a  
13:22
simultaneous need for to Bear witness to one's own gifts and voice while also not  
13:29
then identifying and it becoming an ego expression and so there's I noticed for  
13:35
me sometimes I'll be singing even in the privacy of my own home and my voice will   do something it hasn't done before  it'll open up in such a way and then I 
13:43
immediately am like oh it's doing this  thing and I and I'm I've got so excited   and then it goes away it's like this feeling of like you said it so  
13:51
beautifully this kind of flowing uh this ability to like to hold the structure of  
13:56
it while also flowing and I think that's  a really powerful way to talk about this 
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art form I love what you said about your own  voice and listening and overhearing it and 
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there is a poem the flagship poem the  title poem of my collection is about   that one of the premises of those songs of Life sessions is that we  
14:18
create a repertoire of songs that  we sing when we're on our own  so that we can own these songs  they're not party pieces they're  
14:26
not necessarily to be performed for anybody and that's been a great friend to me over the  
14:32
years is to create these Little Gems  that have committed to memory that  you can work work on yourself learning  to love the sound of your own voice is 
14:42
almost a taboo subject really and I did  that early mercifully for myself I must 
14:48
have known that the walls were closing  in on all other aspects of my of my 
14:54
psyche and I said what can I what do I  have here you know what what can I learn 
15:00
or what can I love in myself and I knew  I could just about sing and I knew I   could drum so I was like you know what I'm going to stop the rot here I'm just  
15:07
going to love it that's it I'm just  gonna love it and uh and I learned to  love the sound of my own voice and I  learned to make music when I was alone  
15:16
and that just speaks for itself and the poem is called early music  
15:21
just brings us to a place which  we can all recognize in ourselves 
15:27
for I learned to make music when I was  alone revering the moment before I began 
15:35
to sing then break the solitary  silence I learned to love my own voice 
15:43
making a fountain pen to master the  Phantom language each Brandenburg   Concerto turned up loud furrowing ground while my father drilled his impossibly  
15:54
strong fingers on the steering wheel careening the back roads of bird Hill  
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my mother would sing alone for hours  Hildegard and shanos seamlessly sung  light would stream in the sash window 
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while she scribbled illegibly  preparing for a performance 
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I would drum my hands on my  thighs until they were hot and red 
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repeating the same beat thousands  of times honing the same phrase 
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and in the evening we would gather  around two candles and early music on 
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cassette an instrumental combination to unlock 
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conversation and make the  silences dance like Candlelight 
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no vocal music to deflect or distract  from a small family huddled around only 
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food and Flame and the warm  faint sound of God's string 
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a family that feels safe is sacred  Echo soundings still bounce back 
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reflected in the sound of early music what comes up for me is this feeling  
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that as artists we're constantly  transmuting the ordinary into 
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um we're constantly kind of Fanning  the ordinary daily into this flame of 
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the miraculous and the Magical and  there's an attention that needs to be 
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paid to the present moment and the mundane  in order to find the Portal into the 
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otherness of the world and I find myself  as someone who's equally artistically 
17:45
inclined as I am sort of  entrepreneurial I'm constantly 
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um kind of pulled between the part of  me that wants to move really fast and 
17:57
Achieve and get things done and the  part of me that wants to slow down and   connect with this spiritual and artistic sentiment and it's easier for me to be  
18:11
in the part of me that is busy and productive and achieving it's more  
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comfortable and it's not vulnerable and  there's a motivation and there's even an  addiction in it sometimes but I'm  finding that while I don't want 
18:26
to give that part of me up I'm wanting  to put it in equal balance with the 
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spiritual and artistic part because  really at the end of the day what   makes life worth living is not what we achieve it's how we relate to each day and each moment  
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and so I've been really trying to find a balance between   um in a way the present and future you know the ability to hold future  
18:53
dreams and goals as inspiration without overriding my my presence and my ability  
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to connect with the beauty of what is ordinary in a day one of my favorite  
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quotes from one of David's poems is  alertness is the hidden discipline of  familiarity alertness is the  hidden discipline of familiarity  
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because that is exactly what it is and Henry who we've talked about Henry shookman  
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um in one of his meditations he talks about this illusion that  
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um the illusion that we've lived any moment before and this idea that actually each moment  
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is so wholly new uh in one of my poems I say something like this  
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moment is totally new and wholly yours or  something like that there's this idea of  the born newness of now and  um we forget and that's why 
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Awakening is often posited as a  remembrance because there is actually a 
19:58
diligent attention and discipline in  Remembering our spiritual nature and 
20:05
recovering the magic of the world that I  think is Central to the artist's kind of 
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task in life we have to see ourselves  as yeah the virtual so that we can make 
20:16
there has to be a new touchdown it earlier  and it's a I suppose it's one of the   characteristics the Cardinal 
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characteristics of mania isn't  it like that we have to have both 
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um a huge ego and a and a overly huge  humility at the same time and insecurity 
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and this um this this narcissism playing  after each other I mean why else would I 
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be here trying to learn anything  to perform for anyone if not for 
20:44
self-gratification on some  levels but it's mostly thankfully 
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um because I've seen it work um it's hard to  believe how powerful one-speaking voice is 
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uh even even an imperfect one um if  one has any level of of virtuosity 
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or confidence and that virtuosity for me is  not an Excellence not a Paganini like scales  
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up and down it's just simply an not not apologizing you know  
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um so it is it's a very much a discipline but it's a it's also  
21:20
unfortunate it's like a family business  if you don't see it if you don't see it  being done you know it's very difficult  to master it's a craft you know I so  
21:28
relate to the apologizing for your art um when I was really involved in the   Poetry scene and reading around town the feedback that I would continually get is  
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that I read my poems so quickly and as I  look back it was like I was I almost was 
21:44
hoping no one would hear what I say it  was like I was hoping that no one that I 
21:49
wouldn't really be exposed in my  vulnerability by uh moving so quickly 
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and saying the poem so rapidly um  there was a there was a mask there   you know there's an unconscious defense mechanism of okay here I am on stage  
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wanting to be heard in one way and also in another way just you know don't look  
22:11
here you know it's really interesting  this this tension that we have as  artists yes and you know one can one  can send out loving kindness and one can 
22:23
also just send out a bit of narcissistic  kindness as well because if the more you 
22:28
believe you're on the right path and believe in in  the poems ironically it's like it's like a con it 
22:35
kind of it's It's a con actually  which comes from the word confidence   I I didn't know that Therese but you you give people confidence in you and you do  
22:44
that by by fooling them and therefore  you're doing it by fooling yourself so 
22:49
it's it's it does have that element but  it's it's it's a light it's light work 
22:54
you know um you have to Kindle in in yourself  and your intentions are hopefully hopefully 
23:02
pretty pretty pretty positive you know  um so in that sense so that belief in 
23:09
the path you're on and if you are a  performer or a missed mystified by by 
23:15
your own profession as well of of psychotherapy  if that's what you like to call it and  
23:21
um and the Art of listening and holding Secrets   um for for for your life that belief in your own vocation is essential for I  
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think Psychotherapy or more performative  vocations as well and what comes to mind  is a poem I recently committed to memory  but I found I saw people perform with my 
23:42
mother throughout my   childhood and it's a translation of a mirabai poem and mirabai was an Indian  
23:51
princess and she uh there's lots of stories written about her because  
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she left the confines of the Royal Palace  and she went off in a group of spiritual 
24:04
abandons and hit the road and  traveled around living the life of a 
24:09
um a traveling spiritual you know  Footloose person bringing great 
24:16
shame upon her family because she was  married to a prince who died and as the 
24:22
tradition was at the time a woman was  supposed to throw herself on the funeral   pyre of that man but mirabai refused and left the palace half half banished but  
24:33
she was making a show of the family  anyway out on the the hollow lands and  hillylands of India and her brothers  were sent out to bring her back 
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and this is a translation  of of that one of the many 
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um vignettes of mirabai in the  Indian tradition and translation by 
24:54
Robert Bly called why Mira  can't go back to her old 
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home the colors of the Dark One have penetrated  Mira's body all other colors washed out 
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making love with the dark one  and eating little these are   my pearls and my carnelians chanting beads in the 
25:11
forehead streak these are my scarves and my  rings that's enough feminine wiles for me 
25:17
my teacher taught me this approve me  or disapprove me I follow the Mountain   Energy day and night I take the path that ecstatic human beings have taken  
25:26
for centuries I do not hit anyone I  Hurt No One what will you charge me with 
25:32
I have felt the swaying of  the elephant's shoulders   and now you want me to climb on a jackass try to be serious yeah there's a transportation  
25:42
that happens with this work where there's something so visual it's almost like a past  
25:48
life regression or something you're  stepping into this experience as this  other being with its own imagery and  and memories that's really powerful 
26:00
I think I've always uh as a as  a result of insecurity physical 
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insecurity I suppose um always felt the  reaction of people to be uh incongruous 
26:12
with what I was putting out you know like  people often in a lot of ways My Life 
26:18
um feels like uh I'm more  inclined to believe that no one 
26:23
else exists and like this is just my  imagination because sometimes people   like even when I was a kid as well I'd say something I'm like a whole room  
26:29
would laugh and like I wouldn't know why  you know like I think that happened to  me marginally more than kids you  know happens happens to every  
26:37
kid but and I I do find that people there's something else does does come  
26:43
through and uh that people's reactions  to songs and poems and uh I would be 
26:49
inclined to believe that there's  something a multi-dimensional going   on yeah yeah I don't know why that is though that's how poetry feels for me  
26:57
too when I'm writing and it reminds me  of a poem by T.S Eliot I can't remember  what it's called it's something about magi  the Journey of the Magi I believe and when  
27:06
I read that poem first it was like I've been there I've seen   that there was something it wasn't those  specifics but it was the um experiential 
27:15
quality of the poem of the journey  uh that felt very familiar in its 
27:22
eccentricities and strangeness um  and there was something about that 
27:29
um that kind of writing that does feel  like a genuine Transportation I also 
27:35
think about that with roomie's work you  know just there's something about it   that takes me somewhere where else that still feels familiar but doesn't feel  
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like it's of me there is a very  physical sense of the esoteric 
27:50
power of of singing if if if one  believes in one's virtuosity or the the 
27:57
craft I suppose seeing David white as well like  the first time I saw him speak I didn't know 
28:03
that a person could do that you know I  had seen poetry recited but I had never 
28:09
gone into the reverie around somebody  speaking in such an interdisciplinary   level I often say that I grew up with two academic parents and outside of  
28:20
the scaffolding of an institution of Academia or musicology or uh or a concert  
28:27
you know the scaffolding of a musical performance I had never I had been to   poetry readings but never never ones  without notes never ones without a 
28:35
podium never ones with and David is an  interesting and virtuosic performer of 
28:40
the ages and when he stands on  stage he doesn't move his feet he 
28:46
won't move his feet for the whole session so  maybe when he tells a joke sometimes he'll Shuffle   because the energy breaks but then once he finds his feet again he'll just speak until  
28:57
to the next guy probably so I learned a lot from that  
29:02
and The Virtue also as well speaks about his influence over me has been Monumental  
29:07
of course and um The Virtue also  speaks first is you who chooses to 
29:12
show the spirit stir then  fill and overflow within you 
29:18
and in a sense that line is dedicated to  him but also that moment when we're on   stage in silence when we're holding a Silence of course in your vocation  
29:27
too holding silence can be just so  healing and how do you read how long 
29:32
the Silence has gone on and David my  brother asked that to David once in 
29:37
private and he said well actually  when I do find a silence come to me   and sometimes it can come to me in the middle of a poem he'll just leave it  
29:46
um that he will imagine a vessel of water filling up um you know with it with the  
29:53
drips or a small stream of water and when that vessel begins to overflow when he can feel it  
29:59
uh breach then he'll begin speaking again and I've I've seen him hold  
30:05
silences for right I'd say I'd say maybe between two and three minutes which is a   long long time you know the the  belief in the virtuosity of art 
30:14
conquering all you know um and  the idea of Excellence is is um 
30:21
not even Excellence just just faith  in the process you know we all go 
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through chapters of our life where  we get exhausted of ourselves   and we take down the we kick down the walls of our of our identity you know and  
30:36
um art can both suspend our disbelief and you know speed up our mental breakdowns as  
30:44
well as depending on how we walk in I often say me hanging around with David   white or all of the the um I suppose all of the on the other end of the spectrum all  
30:54
of the the Hollywood kind of celebs  as well it just sped up my kind of  breakdown I figure I have like a duty to  my peers because I figure that I had I'm 
31:05
I'm I did what they're going to be in  five years you know so my David did me a 
31:11
favor the Poetry did me the favor of  inducing my uh my my wake up you know 
31:17
there's an acceleration of the process  of uh dying and and entering into this 
31:23
new paradigm so seeing how people reinvent  themselves through poetry and come to the well in 
31:30
transition parts of their life  made me realize how how incendiary 
31:36
um to the self that the work is you know and  uh David White is is very strong I feel in 
31:44
almost every facet of his psyche  you know and that's why he's been   able to keep going and um and I hope to get that 
31:50
strong one day you know to to be a  touring like that bulletproof touring 
31:56
artist when I look at those professional  drummers you know I often see you know   when you go to see sting or like you go to see like U2 or something like that  
32:03
and you see the drummer at the back you  know and you're like they're often like  I don't know 300 pound like you know afro  wearing whatever and um that guy or that girl 
32:13
um Michael Jackson had a really good  girl drummer for a long time they have   like drum kits like onto the next venue like in a van right now you know like  
32:21
they've they've got three kids on the  road and they might be doing two gigs  you know in one day and things like this  they're just like really really disciplined 
32:30
and David has a bit of that and I just  hope to get really disciplined and   pass on these poems that I've curated over my life and that brings me into a mode of prayer  
32:42
or that ritual space you know because I I have trouble   um accessing a meditative prayer space outside of music or poetry you know it's got  
32:53
serious I've got serious issues but uh so I find myself writing about but I think everyone can  
33:01
find their mode of prayer outside of actively praying   for someone's philanthropy for some it's  Summits so that's so beautiful there's 
33:11
so many ways to pray and that's something  I'm remembering right now and cultivating   in my life singing as a prayer poetry is a prayer  
33:20
um you know walking on the beach is a  prayer looking at the world in a new way  as a type of prayer so what  a beautiful note to end on  
33:28
me Hall thank you so much for being here today thanks so much thanks for listening everybody it's  
33:33
a real pleasure wonderful to see you take care [Music]



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