Episode 93 Horses and Hunting , Two communities united

This week we welcome Chris and Sarah Brady , nationally and internationally renowned horse trainers who are certified Parelli Natural Horsemanship Instructors. Decades of horse and hunt experience between them Chris and Sarah give us an insight into their revolutionary style of training , horse psychology and the crossover between horse and dog training and the intrinsic and historic links between both disciplines .

Transcript

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Anthony Grogan: Chris and Sarah Brady. Welcome to the Irish hunting. Podcast

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Anthony Grogan: thanks. A 1 million for for taking the the time to to join us here.

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Chris Brady: Oh, well, it's great guys. Thanks, thanks very much for inviting us on. We're absolutely delighted to to talk to you, designer.

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Anthony Grogan: Myself. And Robbie actually just had a chat on Route down.

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Anthony Grogan: And we were saying obviously, that Robbie's heavily involved in the dog training.

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Anthony Grogan: And you guys obviously are in horse training, and the 2 communities are probably interconnected in many different ways.

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Anthony Grogan: I'm very, very new, apart from my grandfather, having the odd flutter, and me being partial to that. Horses wouldn't be my forte. Love looking at them, love seeing them

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Anthony Grogan: in their natural environments, and so on and so forth. But and

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Anthony Grogan: I suppose from from a Newbie perspective, tell us a little bit about what you guys do and how you got started.

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Chris Brady: Super. So where there, 1st of all, Hi! I'm Sarah Brady. I'm 3 Star party professional, based in Salins County there. And this is Chris Brady.

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Chris Brady: also, Priest, are pretty profession. Okay? And where there's horses there's usually dogs. The 2 kind of tend to go quite they're quite linked and go hand in hand. So it's not surprising that

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Chris Brady: There is a new wave of understanding of what dog training is, and also what horse training is in in Ireland.

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Anthony Grogan: Absolutely.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, so go on.

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Anthony Grogan: I suppose, on that, Sarah, like there's you're you're correct with the dawn of social media, and so on. And we're finding, you know, there's there's new methods, new new and new tips and tricks, and I suppose.

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Anthony Grogan: bring bring us right back, I suppose, at the start. How did you and and, Chris, how did you both get involved in horses? Bring us right back? How did it start.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, sure. So I'm I'm originally from Tala, and Tallow was a different, different landscape 50 years ago. I'm 54 now. So I grew up in Tala, so the back of my mother's house in Tallah would have been cornfields and fields for miles, and

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Chris Brady: over the years the you know the traveling community used to leave the horses in the back fields, and we used to go ride it. Horses and I just loved horses from, you know, from a very young age. I probably took my 1st formal riding lesson when I was about 8 years old, and when my my dad brought himself and a couple of brothers down to Green Hills riding school and

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Chris Brady: and following on. I I worked in different yards around North County dub. Not sorry. Not North County, Dublin, around Sale County, Dublin.

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Chris Brady: and just mucking out riding out horses for hunting yards, pole-up ponies. And I was just very that traditional background in horses. I just kind of fell in love with horses, and it wasn't until Sarah and I met in our kind of early mid early mid twenties that

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Anthony Grogan: Good to get that one in Sarah.

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Chris Brady: Always, never miss an opportunity. Yeah. So one of the common things that brought us together really was horses and our love of horses. Sarah grew up on a farm with horses, and she'll tell her story. But the 1st thing we did when we moved back here was we bought a horse. And quite quickly we realized at that stage that we kind of, although we know a lot about traditional horse training and horse methods.

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Chris Brady: And we quite quickly ran into problems with

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Chris Brady: with our horses. And so that's where we found this kind of more natural approach to horse training. So I'll let Sarah kind of tell her story.

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Anthony Grogan: Okay.

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Chris Brady: Yeah. So, as Chris said, I grew up with ponies. My brother, my brother, and 2 sisters had ponies, but by the time I was kind of old enough to get one or look for one. My mother was sick of being a groom, so the horses were sold, and I begged and pleaded

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Chris Brady: for another, say 3 or 4 years, and eventually kind of twisted my dad's arm, and I ended up with a little black and white Shetland pony. Well, I say, it was probably a little bit bigger than a Shetland pony, and I rode that on the farm for a solid year with no saddle. I didn't have a saddle small enough to fit it. I did have a bridle, so everywhere I went I went at 100 miles an hour.

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Chris Brady: and I actually did a lot of kind of prepping for hunting at the time. So the next pony I got I actually, that's that pony I did take hunting quite a bit. And it's funny now when I look back on it

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Chris Brady: with regards to the training we do, I realized why my frustration levels used to come up so high with that pony because I didn't really understand

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Chris Brady: what, how he viewed the world.

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Chris Brady: And more often than not we we weren't a great match if you like.

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Chris Brady: So then, anyway, fast forward college met Chris, and then we had a couple of years of a break of horses while the kids were small, and then, when we moved back to Salin's, got a horse, and we very quickly ran into problems and the solutions that people were giving us were really kind of unethical, and there were not things we were prepared to do really. So

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Chris Brady: we gave that horse back to the rescue, because we were really over horsed at that point, and then took another just short break to have Ella. But as soon as Ella was born it was back to horses. And then again we ran into the same problems again, slightly different problems. But we still had no solutions. So that's when, thankfully, we found the program.

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Chris Brady: And at the time there was there's a show, and I think it's still still around horse and country TV.

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Chris Brady: And we there used to show a lot of videos of Pat Pirelli and his wife, Linda Pirelli, and they used to do tour stops all around America, and there was one in England in particular. We watched that.

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Chris Brady: and oh, my goodness! That was us, you know, when they they did a problem solving section. And they brought out this guy with this, with this wild horse. And we were like, that's that's what we have problems with. And within 10 min he had the problem solved

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Chris Brady: so we were hooked. We were hooked line and sinker, and it was just before Christmas. So guess what Chris got for Christmas that year. He got the whole. He got the whole learning library from Pirelli. The whole enchilada.

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Anthony Grogan: I suppose, I suppose, from my perspective, I I work with Chris, and then I've had numerous conversations on on different topics

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Anthony Grogan: in regards to horses, and I find it contagious, the amount of passion and stuff that he has about it. And Sarah, just in case he has never told you. He always sings your praises

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Anthony Grogan: cool

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Anthony Grogan: has even known more. So when we asked Chris on, we said, Is there any chance we could get the 2 years? And

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Anthony Grogan: so I just want to.

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Anthony Grogan: And what cost you 50 quid. Now, Chris, you owe me money.

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Chris Brady: Oh, there you go!

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Anthony Grogan: One other thing is only good things come out of talent, Chris, and you don't look a day over 36, Buddy.

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Anthony Grogan: Thanks very much, mate.

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Anthony Grogan: so could could you tell me a little bit more about pearly methodology and the mindset? What is different about it?

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Chris Brady: Yeah, sure. So it's really steeped in equine psychology and horse behavior. So your kind of more traditional methods that you know that Sarah alluded to like when we had. We had a particular horse that he he, you know, he started rearing, and really I was the type of writer. I was very confident, and you know I'd write anything. You know. I would have been that guy on the air to say. I'll get Chris to write it if it's a little bit difficult.

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Chris Brady: But that particular horse kept rearing up and flipping over, and I didn't have any answers to solve that.

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Chris Brady: And traditionally, you hear that you hear the word pass the book, you know, that obviously came from the horse industry. So we asked for help. People were, and the help that was offered was more kind of force, fear, and intimidation, you know, beat the horse into submission, tie him down. All of these things, none of which we were prepared to do so. You know, Sarah said, when we seen this, this kind of new approach, which is.

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Chris Brady: which is understanding horse behavior really at the crux of it, and learning how horses think how they act, how they feel, how they play and understanding their. You know, people have personalities, and

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Chris Brady: and we talk about horses having horse horse analogies.

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Chris Brady: So that's that's the basics here. Do you want to add anything there? Sure. So a lot of people, when they ask me what I do for a living. It's just easier kind of sometimes to explain. I just use the term. I say, have you seen the film, the horse whisperer, and they go. Oh, yeah, and I go. I do that. But it's kind of that makes it sound a little bit mythical and magical. But actually, the program we teach. It's very focused on teaching people and not the horses.

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Chris Brady: You know the saying, teach a man to fish and or give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you and you feed him for life. So that is our ethos more so that we are

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Chris Brady: putting

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Chris Brady: you know, putting the ideas into people's head about how they can best get along with their course. Now, a lot of people really kind of tend to gravitate to this

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Chris Brady: when they get in trouble with horses, which is a little bit unfortunate. It would be an awful pity if they didn't come a little sooner before. They had all the problems to begin with, and I can understand that in dog training, because my 2 dogs are a disaster. I said. Good, good, with horses, bad with dogs.

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Anthony Grogan: That's a good segue, right? Because

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Anthony Grogan: we mess around trick around here with dogs. Is there any crossover between dogs and horses that your program could teach someone who's training dogs.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah. So so when we talk about what horses want, they want comfort

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Chris Brady: first, st okay? Or sorry. They want safety. First.st Okay. So they need to feel safe. They can't learn anything because they're a prey animal.

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Chris Brady: Okay? And then dogs are predators. So horses are prey. Animals. Dogs are predators, so they need to feel safe before they can learn anything.

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Chris Brady: And then they want comfort. Okay, so they want breaks. They want to take it easy. And there's an awful lot of neuroscience around. Now about how the horse's brain actually works.

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Chris Brady: so that comfort ties in a lot, and by giving them breaks by giving them opportunities to assimilate the learning and then food. So food is the last thing that we kind of use with horses. A lot of horse. People are really anti using food. But we have no problem mixing, mixing that into the modality

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Chris Brady: and then we always say like that that dogs and dogs and humans were predators. We're natural predators. So they want praise.

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Chris Brady: recognition. And you know, material things for people and food, maybe for dogs or toys and things like that. So although one is a prey animal, one is a predator, it's getting our mindset away from like. So maybe some things that haven't really served us well in the past, or humans are natural direct line thinkers. So what we tend to do is we know what we want to achieve.

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Chris Brady: But then, all of a sudden, like, we go very directly to that, and we don't really take in consideration of how we could achieve that in a way that kind of builds the bond and the relationship with the dog and the horse.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, I suppose we do. We do talk a lot about it. It's a partnership and a relationship with the horse. And the partnership is, it's a it's a 51, 49 split. Okay? So somebody has to be the leader in that, you know, somebody has to lead the dance, if you like. And so yeah, so it's very much a leadership. And I know from talking to Robbie about dog training.

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Chris Brady: And there there is that kind of pack leader. And you know again, dogs dogs are like that as well. They they need direction, and that. But we we have, you know, in training and training people. And I spoke, and I mentioned earlier on about a set of principles, and

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Chris Brady: so in in training.

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Chris Brady: it's like 4 legs of a steel. So you, we would say, you have principles, patience, sequence, and ambition.

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Chris Brady: And so we have a, we're very principled people in how we train people to train their horses. And I think we go through the 8 Principles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'll talk about them individually, and I'm sure there's going to be huge crossover here to dog training if you guys want to jump in at any stage. So so. Principle number one is horsemanship is a natural phenomena.

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Chris Brady: And so and so what what do we mean by horsemanship is natural, and I suppose

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Chris Brady: Pat pat came up with this, this particular

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Chris Brady: method methodology of training horses. And when he was traveling the country training people

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Chris Brady: and how they how they interact with each other in the wild, and how they communicate with each other, and they're very clear in how they communicate and the system that we we teach people is how to assimilate that and bring it into their training.

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Anthony Grogan: When you say when they communicate with each. Sorry for interrupting, I just find this stuff fascinating.

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Chris Brady: No problem.

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Anthony Grogan: They hold space, they're aggressive towards each other.

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Anthony Grogan: They start.

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Anthony Grogan: Should I.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, so absolutely, they, we would call it a bubble, right? So they have a bubble around them. That is their personal space. And that's what actually a lot of horses, when they're taking kind of leadership of it, they will claim space from another horse. Yeah. So like, if if we were looking at horses in the wild.

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Chris Brady: The stallion is the one that will bring the bring the herd where it's needing to go for water, and that. And then the stallion will always eat and drink first, st and then the lead mayor will always will be second, and then it filters down through a kind of hierarchy. So we kind of like observe that.

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Chris Brady: but also, if you had a dominant horse, and there was a horse drinking water, and it walked over and moved that horse away from water that's already asserting dominance. So, as you said, like holding space.

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Chris Brady: and also they, they're they're a pack animal. So they work off of energy and intention. Quite a lot, so they'll even notice, like the smallest thing like an ear flick.

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Chris Brady: So if one horse is like kind of wants to move another horse. The 1st thing it'll do is kind of like, maybe scrunch up its face and give it a bit of a dirty look. Then the next thing it'll do is it'll PIN its ears, and then, you know, it might maneuver its body to where it's threatening, and then, like. Finally it will follow through and bite, or either kick. So we call that.

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Anthony Grogan: Like lads in a nightclub.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, that's right.

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Anthony Grogan: It's like, yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. I'm sure in the in the dog training industry, as well, you know.

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Chris Brady: people would all signals. Yeah, you're looking for signals. You're looking for signs, and you're reading your you know. We're full time reading the horse the whole picture, the whole body language, and

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Chris Brady: understanding how they, how they think, how they act, how they feel, and how they play with each other. And it's if we can act a little bit more like a horse

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Chris Brady: than a human around horses. We get along way better way way better with them, and I'm sure it's the same for dog training, Robbie. Maybe you're looking for those signs of a you know confident dog or a more dominant dog, and I'm sure you have to adjust your training methods for that more submissive dog, or a more dominant type of dog. Would that be the case?

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, 100% you would. You'd have to tailor your particular style of training depending on the personality of the dog. And what motivates the dog. But.

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Chris Brady: Well.

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Anthony Grogan: Speaking about the horses.

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Anthony Grogan: There's huge transfer over there from horses to deer like you're talking about the lead female directing. That's what happens with the the hare to deer.

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Anthony Grogan: Yes, dominant female brings. If, for instance, someone shot a dominant female.

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Anthony Grogan: the herd goes bananas and they can run onto roads. It's actually quite dangerous.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Is good crossover there, absolutely. And I was just thinking there

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Anthony Grogan: that that actually came into my mind just where we're talking there. And I'm actually Robbie's

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Anthony Grogan: transmitting some of his knowledge that he's obviously gained over the last couple of years

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Anthony Grogan: trying to transmit that to me. And I think

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Anthony Grogan: what's probably coming across here, and very prevalent is.

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Anthony Grogan: It's as much about the the as Us. Learning how to do this as much as the you know. The horse is going to be the horse, and the dog is going to be dog. We've to. We have to try and learn a little bit more about them, I think.

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Anthony Grogan: and I'm learning that as well. I know where I want to get with the dog.

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Anthony Grogan: But as you rightly said, Sarah, it's not smooth, it's not linear. It's a set of steps and processes, and like a stairs. And we have to. You have to go through each one and slightly tailored to the dog or the horse. In this case.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, no, definitely. And and the thing about the program that we teach. As you said, there it is, a step by step levels program. It's a bit like, you know you you do. Maybe, Karate, or something like that, you know. You start off with your white belt, and you go to your yellow, brown, blue, black, whatever that is. We kind of have that same type of system in in the program we teach so, and Sarah is very good at explaining all that we probably do that later, when we go back to the principles of training. And so principle, the second principle is.

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Chris Brady: make or teach no assumptions. So what does that mean? So in your training methods like, for instance, today, I'm training a couple of young horses at the moment, and yesterday I had a really really good session with them.

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Chris Brady: with both horses, and I was very successful. Now, if I had started my session with with that I always start with a great, positive, progressive outlook. But I'm not going to make the assumption that just because I had a good ride yesterday that it's going to be a good ride.

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Chris Brady: I go through my pre-flight checks all you know, in terms of getting my horse ready to ride, saddling and proper saddling, bridling, mounting, checking along. You know each step of the way that my horse is giving me green light so it can go on by green lights we mean like connection, and that it's that it's willing, you know, not just doing it.

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Anthony Grogan: And on that just I'm sorry I keep on jumping in. But let's say you're having a bad day with the horse. Do you decide to fly through that or stop. No, put the horse away. We'll take it up again tomorrow.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, no. So you know, we have to saying, Observe, remember, and compare so with every thing I ask the horse to do, whether it be? Follow a field, or you know, if I'm driving in a certain direction, or ask them to do a certain maneuver, I'll give it a score.

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Chris Brady: And really my scoring system in my head is kind of minus 5 to a plus 5. And I'm looking. I'm not going to move on until the next task or next part of my plan until I get at least a 0. So what is a 0 0 is where the horses, calm.

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Chris Brady: confident, and obedient. And you know, sometimes, Robbie, you know that might be something simple, like picking up its foot and picking out its foot, and he's you know, he'd be pulling away the foot. You know I've spent literally hours with horses just picking up and placing their feet until I got that 0, because there's no point in. You probably hear a lot about trigger stacking.

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Chris Brady: I was going to jump in with the trigger stack. You could talk about the science behind it. Basically, if if you have a brace in the horse, so you know, that's showing up. Maybe if he's pulling away, or it's a brace in the mind, if you, if you don't solve that there right there and then you're just carrying that brace on to the next part of your plan, and then that becomes another trigger stack and another trigger stack. And all of a sudden, you know.

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Chris Brady: 10 min down the road you're you're sitting on your horse, and some people say, oh, I never saw it coming.

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Chris Brady: But really, the minute you showed up that day you went to halter him he pulled away. You went to lead him. He stopped. He went to pick out his feet. He couldn't pick out his feet. You went to saddle him, and he moved away from the mountain block. So in answer to your question, yes, I would work my way through it and systematically and kind of solve it. Yeah. And we have a great saying develop forward, but work backwards. So

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Chris Brady: we really the program we teach, it's really to help people identify where they have problems, or we call it holes in their foundations. And a lot of people don't really realize that they have problems or they have holes in their foundations. So we try and kind of highlight. Okay, that's a problem. You need to fix that, because if you don't fix it, that's where the trigger stacking starts. So I use the example of, you know the alarm clock goes off in the morning.

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Chris Brady: and you're like, Oh, that's desperate! And then you go downstairs, and the milk has gone off. So you have no tea, and it's like, no, this is awful. You get into the car. The tire is flat. By the time you get into work you're ready to kill someone.

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Chris Brady: So that is trigger stacking. Basically, it's when things kind of go wrong. But they're small. But it accumulates to the point where it's a big problem. So what we do is we meet the problem where it shows up. So the 1st time, like it could be even as simple as going out to the field and catching the horse. If the horse doesn't want to be caught, we go. Oh, that's an issue. We need to solve that there and then.

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Chris Brady: And then when you we find with horses, and it'd be interesting to hear your input with dogs on this. But when you solve your problem where it shows up. The rest of your session tends to go a lot smoother because the dog or the horse knows you're present paying attention. You dealt with what was important to them, and then they're a much more willing partner. So I'd be interesting to hear if that transfers into dogs as well.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, it does. And I suppose.

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Anthony Grogan: would I try and work through a really bad session? No, by no means. Am I an expert. There's people way better than me, but

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Anthony Grogan: I could depend on the dog, so if it's a female and she's in heat, I won't, I won't. I'll put her away. But if it's a dog or a female out of heat, yeah, I could bring it right. Let's say, for instance, I'm trying to do a blind retrieve.

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Anthony Grogan: So that's simply where the dog can't see something, and I wanted to go in a straight line out to it. But for whatever reason I know the dog knows it, but it's hesitant, or it's unsure of itself. I'll just simplify it. I'll just move much much closer, and I might even throw a dummy, so it knows there's 1 out there

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Anthony Grogan: I'll assemble for it, and then I'll take the dummy, and I'll send it again without throwing anything. No one knows. Oh, this this fella knows where the dummies are. He's smarter than me. Then I'll slowly move back away. So yeah, to answer your question. I can work through a session that's gone terribly wrong for me.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Sarah, I've also stopped and been tick, and put the dog away out of thickness. No, I can't, but it's better

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Anthony Grogan: fair enough.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: It is real time. Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's very interesting. And you know, we would often say and see that with people on their horses. And it's why a lot of people gravitated to what we teach and the program we teach. Because, you know, frustration starts where knowledge ends. And we were at that point, you know. I don't know how many years ago now my days of being frustrated around horses and now are very, very. You know. I can't remember the last time

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Chris Brady: I was frustrated around the horse. I have so many kind of arrows in my quiver to deal with these problems that when a problem does show up. Now I go. Let me try this.

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Chris Brady: and it's more fascinating to me now, and than frustrated than frustration.

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Chris Brady: But that's where myself and Anta would love to be with dogs. Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: I'm definitely not like Rob is far ahead of me, but like like that, my dog, this, my current dog, is obviously new to me. She's only a year and a half, and like that, it's it's it's more. I found out definitely in the last year to 18 months. It's more about me learning how to how to show her rather than the other way around. She wants to. She wants to do

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Anthony Grogan: what what I want. You know she's looking at me for approval and and constant

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Anthony Grogan: and but it's about as like, Rob said. It's to simplify it. Show her what I

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Anthony Grogan: require of her, and then we're both happy. She's coming over. Yeah, I've done this, and and I suppose it's to get there. I think the frustration element I've been there where I want this to. I've seen dogs do this. Why can't I? You know. Why won't my dog do this? But it was more about me rather than the dog itself, you know.

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Chris Brady: So that's very interesting, because what that's brought us to is like our 3rd principle is communication is 2 or more individuals sharing and understanding an idea. So how we use these principles is when things are going wrong, we go which one is out of kilter.

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Chris Brady: So yeah, that's a really good filter is is that when things are going wrong, I'm like, Oh, okay, hold on. Have you got the idea? Have I got the idea? Because it could be in our case, it could be so simple as like our body is pointed the wrong direction, or we are when we're supposed to be relaxed. We still have our kind of our life up, or what we call driving energy, you know. That's the like.

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Chris Brady: that's the like. If you're sitting at the car at the best example I can give is if you're sitting at the traffic lights and you're really late for something, and you're they're red, and you're like trying to will them green going. That's a kind of when your life is up. And even in in at certain instances where we're trying to get the horse to relax. But our energy is up too high.

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Chris Brady: So that's a a really strong filter for us. Is to go back and say, Okay, do they? Am I sharing the idea correctly.

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Chris Brady: and are they understanding it? And am I understanding what they're saying back to me? Yeah, Rob, you gave a good example, and we were talking. You were telling me a story about your young lad training, and you were standing behind him. The dog wasn't doing exactly what what he wanted it to do, but because you had that communication, probably, and relationship with the dog, you gave it a signal from behind.

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Chris Brady: And so that was a clear communication. Both you and the dog knew what was going on, and I don't know whether you remember that. But that's a good good example of, you know, 2 or more individuals doesn't have to be, you know, can be different species sharing and understanding an idea.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, very good.

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Anthony Grogan: Very good. I think that that's the the

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Anthony Grogan: what you were saying. There, the thing I suppose I struggle with, and I watch Rob. Now, you know, and you're saying, you know you're looking in the direction that you want to send the dog you were saying, Sarah, as well, going back to you've had that morning of horrors, you know you've come out, or the day in work, and you're coming back, and you're trying to train your dog or your horse, and you're coming with that kind of that baggage on the back, you know. And you

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Anthony Grogan: yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: you've said, no, I'm going. I'm training my dog saving. And you're you're trying to take the box. But you're not quite there, you know. You're

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Anthony Grogan: yeah

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Anthony Grogan: going through the motions, and you're leaving probably signals. I would presume that the dog or the horse is picking up

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Anthony Grogan: and probably feeding into, I suppose.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: I have a. This is probably a really silly question, can they pick up horses? Can they pick up emotions or your energy.

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Chris Brady: Have a good.

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Anthony Grogan: Okay.

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Chris Brady: Very much so so years and years ago I had a young horse here, and she hadn't been backed yet, so she'd never had a rider on her back.

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Chris Brady: and she was my horse. So I want, like, you know, we we learned how to do this and through the program. So I was out in the paddock beside the house. Now the kids were small. They were running around the house screaming at each other. I think Chris, God loving was inside, trying to get a bit of dinner ready. I'm going to get on this horse for the very 1st time.

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Chris Brady: and then Chris came out the back door, and I said, Oh, my God! Will you just get those children to be quiet right? And he goes. Are you going to get on the back of that horse with that energy, and I was like.

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Chris Brady: once I recognized that it was there. I was able to park it up pretty quickly, because they really read our energy and our intention. And you know they're kind of thinking about this thing is really angry now, and she's going to climb on me.

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Anthony Grogan: So.

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Chris Brady: Thankfully, I was able to drop that energy and like, leave that kind of feeling behind. And I suppose over the years we've just got better at doing that quicker, because sometimes I know, even with my youngster. I went to walk into her stable there like about a year ago, and she's quite a young horse, and she just kind of took a step back for me. And I was like, Oh, oh, okay, I'm coming with too much energy, and I just stopped. Let some air out of my body.

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Chris Brady: you know, dropped my shoulders, had a more relaxed stance in my body, and she she literally dropped her head and started licking and chewing. And

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Chris Brady: these are all the signals we're looking for to show that the horse is, you know, recognizing that there's been a change, or that they may have learned something.

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Anthony Grogan: It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

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Anthony Grogan: was. But do you go through a sequence to change your energy like, I know I'm asking really like

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Anthony Grogan: remed your questions. But is there a

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Anthony Grogan: go through to go right? This is what I do now.

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Chris Brady: Definitely. Okay. So if you think about like our your belly button, right? It's the center part of your body. Okay? And you think about when you. I always use the the old example. If there was 2 lads squaring up to have a row outside of a nightclub, they're not standing at angles to each other. They're standing square on to each other, shoulder to shoulder.

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Chris Brady: So 1st of all, we need to kind of turn our body just ever so slightly off of that line, and what I would. And we teach this to people

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Chris Brady: like like cock. One leg, you know, just don't stand on 2 really straight legs like cock one leg, or drop your hip, or even drop your shoulder, you know, and make your body less straight and kind of offensive looking. And then there's a huge science about breathing around horses as well. A lot of people get really like breathe really shallow and things like that. So

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Chris Brady: I suppose Chris and I can do it quite quickly and quite innately at this point, because we've we've played with it so much. But we actually teach that in our level one clinics how to do that.

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Anthony Grogan: Wow! That's fascinating like. So like literally by, as you rightly said, by being less authoritarian. Essentially, when you walk in, you're not. You're not coming in. You're not showing them, you know that they you're bringing the troubles of your day are left behind you outside the stable door essentially, and.

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Chris Brady: Yes.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, dropping the shoulders. I think I look back on.

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Anthony Grogan: And just as you were talking there, I'm listening to myself. I'm nodding away. I was in every bad day I've had with my dog, you know, has probably coincided with

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Anthony Grogan: a poor day. Personally. Do you know, you're coming in from.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: You're rushing with the kids you're coming in. And you're you're kind of just trying to get through it. So so there is crossover. Yeah, it's fascin.

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Anthony Grogan: really, really cool.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, no. And again, if you think of horse behavior like horses, they're precocious species. They feed into the energy of the herd, and they don't speak. You know. They're very non verbal communicators. Really, it's all about energy, intention, body language.

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Chris Brady: you know, when horses are moving each other to give them, you know, to give another horse a, you know, kind of mean look, PIN the ears. So it's very, very much about energy and intention which leads us on to principle number 4. Well, just say that body language, that is principle number 6. So body language is universal. So we've already hit that one on the head.

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Chris Brady: Good. So, yeah. So principle number 4. Horses and humans have mutual responsibilities.

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Chris Brady: So what we talk about there in training is.

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Chris Brady: and as a horse trainer, and my number one responsibility is to act like a partner, not act like a predator.

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Chris Brady: So what is? What does that mean? What does partnership behavior means well, if I'm applying pressure to a horse and and at the basics of training a horse, it's all about pressure and release.

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Chris Brady: whether that be rhythmical pressure or or steady pressure and rhythmical pressure is like, if you're pushing like, say, like, pushing your hands towards the horse like rhythmically, you know? Yeah, or using a flag or a stick and string, just to put a bit of energy towards them, to send them in a particular direction, so that that

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Chris Brady: energy is basically information. So how do I present that information? It's not really fair. If I pick up a stick and whack a horse, if he's, you know, if he doesn't understand, you know it's not fair. I didn't deliver that information appropriately. So we talk about phases so phase one would be, you know.

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Chris Brady: you know, a very light phase. I'm not going to go into the but it it in, you know, goes phase one phase, 2, phase 3, and phase 4. And that's how we deliver the information. And that's

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Chris Brady: and that kind of helps me act more like a you know, it's more partnership behavior. It will deliver that information more appropriately for the horse at its age and stage. Now, young horses, phase one, will be long and slow phase, 2 long and slow phase 3 long and slow, but as the horse gets more developed, those phases get quicker, and so quicker and lighter, quicker and lighter.

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Anthony Grogan: Okay, even though what did you say?

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Anthony Grogan: Phases and stages.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, ages and states.

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Anthony Grogan: Ages and stages. That's very, very good, that that even just rings a bell with me when I'm expecting too much of a young dog that's only new in

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Anthony Grogan: ages and stages. I'm gonna remember that. Thanks, Chris.

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Chris Brady: No, and I'm sure it's the same with training dogs you're not going to. You're not going to probably like we refine as we go along. So, my, my, really, you know my top horses here, you can't even see the cues. I'm giving those horses, whether it be on the ground or in the saddle, they're almost invisible, whereas where young horses I'm starting at the moment, you know, it's very kind of spelling it out big, you know, big neon big neon sign. Please, sir, step this way. Go to the left.

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Chris Brady: where, with my horse I would just look, and I'm sure it's the same, for dog training, is it? And where you would exaggerate to teach, and then refine as you go along.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah. So if I'm sending the dog to the left or right at the moment, I'm actually taking a step to the left and right. Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Again, body, language. Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: But I also do that for 2 reasons. The the lab is I'm getting him. Now. I'm stretching distance.

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Anthony Grogan: So if it's let's just say, I'm gonna pick a number. Let's say it's a hundred 50 meters. He's away, and I want him to go to the left. I'm not so sure he can just see a hand, but he has a better chance of seeing my whole body move that direction.

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Anthony Grogan: Yes, I'm doing that. So is it the same. Yeah, yes.

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Anthony Grogan: maybe I might. I might get away with dropping the movement of the body and just finite, and it down to my hand. But at the moment I'm using it all

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Anthony Grogan: still need.

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Chris Brady: And do you use whistles or verbal cues?

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah. Yeah. So I have them all.

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Anthony Grogan: When I start. Now, like, I said, I'm no expert. So I don't want anyone getting on here giving out about me right? But when I when I've trained them, let's say in the house with hand signals and variable signals, then I move them onto the whistle, so they're all on the whistle so I can get them to stop.

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Anthony Grogan: and I can call them back in on the whistle. I have a hunt whistle. So let's say I cast him out 50 meters. I stop him, and then I cast him to the left, and then he's in the right area, and the wind is right for him. So then I give him the hunt whistle. So now he's got to stop running and start engaging his nose.

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Anthony Grogan: So yeah, basically, yeah, yeah, he's on a whistle. Yeah, sorry.

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Chris Brady: That's so cool, cause all I can get is sit on the paw.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, and it's no dog.

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Anthony Grogan: Come out some day with us. Come out some day for the crack.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, absolutely.

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Anthony Grogan: Is there is there just just on that, like going back on your point there, Chris, like the the

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Anthony Grogan: is there a bond, then, between

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Anthony Grogan: owner and horse like that? And is that? Is that what would you say? Is this? Exclusive.

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Chris Brady: Lucifer, and

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Chris Brady: I would say, yes and no. Yes, I definitely have my main horses here. There's definitely a bond here when I go to the field, and I call my horse, and you know he'll come running across the field to me. And would you do that for everyone else? I'm not so sure. So there's definitely that kind of bonding and obedience.

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Chris Brady: And with your horse, yeah, I would have that, too, like with my mares if I go out to the field. My 2 mares will come over to me, even like if they're out with 2 other horses, they'll always come over to me like. They know I'm their person.

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Chris Brady: but like that as well, and they know what I know, and they don't thankfully. They don't know what I don't know yet, because I've been, you know, with our training sequences we've been able to stay ahead of that. They haven't figured out what I don't know yet, but I watch our horses with other people like, with working students and things like that. And my goodness, they sum up so fast what they know and what they don't know, and they can do it.

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Chris Brady: They they do it

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Chris Brady: in within 3 min. They know exactly what that person knows and doesn't know, and then they just go. Oh, I'm not listening, you're fine, or else they go. Yes, ma'am, one or the other.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yes, we'll definitely back to to train to train.

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Anthony Grogan: and the person as well as the horse. It's simultaneous then, and and that that. Does that transcend? Then so say, for instance, if if you're, would you be, what would you say? Would you train the person first, st or or coincide training? Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, well.

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Chris Brady: we we would. We would always say, we are a people training program. So we have. We have to learn with their horse. Now, sometimes we do take people, and we'll allow them. Learn a certain amount here with our horses, but it's better if they if they have their own horse. But having said that, that's not always possible, but we will teach them, and and straight away, like in level one, we teach them body, language, energy, awareness.

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Chris Brady: we teach them like basic skills to stay safe around the horse. And then we advance that. And you know you can't. Really. You can't shovel it all in in the one day as as much as we've tried. So you.

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Anthony Grogan: Just on that, sir, like you, you're a level 3 in this same as Chris. How long? How long did it take you to acquire, and how many years we never even asked you how many years

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Anthony Grogan: you've been doing this? And have you traveled the world? Have you.

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Chris Brady: Yeah. So we yeah, we started in 2,007 around Christmas, 2,007. And we kind of were really, really addicted to the learning part. So we got licensed. We flew through the program, and we had a great mentor at the time. So in 2010, then we became licensed to teach the program after spending time in Florida and Colorado, and then I went back and spent 3 months in Florida. When in 2011

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Chris Brady: Chris has been out to Australia.

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Chris Brady: England, Colorado, Florida. Yeah. Germany. Uk, yeah, we've the program is really, it's it's taken us all over the world. You know I've started, and Sarah has started young horses as well on some of those famous ranches you see in Yellowstone, and you see, you probably hear the 4 sixes and

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Chris Brady: and the mule shoe horses that we're talking about, those pitchfork, pitchfork ranch mules. They're all. They're all ranches in Texas that are mentioned in that Yellowstone. And both Sarah and I have been there started young horses. And yeah, it's been an absolute, amazing journey with with.

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Chris Brady: And you know, with this program. It's an international and recognized renowned program that's studied by hundreds of 1,000 people all over the world. And we have a working student program here we actually have a Hungarian girl and a Swiss girl here with us at the moment. And so yeah, in answer to your question, yeah, it's it's we've traveled the world, and we say we have help. We'll travel, you know. We help horses with people, problems.

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Anthony Grogan: And when I is that it I use like, I use that because I know you're retiring from your current job, Chris, is that you putting the feet up, or have you got more plans to travel more with this? She's laughing.

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Chris Brady: Absolutely. Yeah. I've had an amazing career in the in the military over the last 41 years. And and that's really helped me, you know, because, you know, Rob will tell you. You know we do these career courses, and you learn an awful lot about and how to teach people. I was an instructor in a military college, and I was an instructor in the in an infantry battalion. So you learn how to teach people and a lot of what we learned through this program was how you know how people learn.

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Chris Brady: And so, and Sarah might talk a little bit about that. But and we

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Chris Brady: in the military, you learn how to be a good instructor and your method of instruction. But through this particular program, you know, we've learned how to how to really help people learn. Not everybody learns the same way. It's a bit like horses. Not every horse learns the same as another horse, so it's up to us to adapt our methodology to the student and the horse, and that particular relationship and partnership.

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Anthony Grogan: Very good, I think, is, is there? I suppose? Obviously there's there's there's other methods out there.

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Anthony Grogan: and I suppose if somebody's coming to you with, you know.

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Anthony Grogan: Say, I'll take my me. For example. I would have learned bad habits because I would have been taking pieces off anyone I could have. You know what I'm saying, and not always the right. And I was bringing them back. And and until you kind of find your way, so I'm presuming people come to you.

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Anthony Grogan: and you have to probably try and unwind some of that.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Well, well, I don't know if it's the same with dogs, but definitely in horses, even just in in regular terms, people would say when they run into problems. They go. You have to go back to basics, you know, but that's what we teach. It's because it's a foundation program. It's about getting getting on with your horse and getting along with your horse on the ground, but also in the saddle, so you will have a lot of people who've put it spend a lot of time and muscle memory, wise teaching their body to do things that are counterproductive

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Chris Brady: to that. So. But it's good, because the program kind of is set up in a way that we are able to take someone who maybe has never, ever sat in a horse before and start there and then other people who are more advanced. We can still take them and and find the place to start, and that will make a big change or a big difference.

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Chris Brady: So and and there are there, there's lots and lots of methodologies, new methodologies out there. But what really sets the Pre program apart. The one we teach is that.

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Chris Brady: the use of psychology. And a lot of times I see in a lot of other programs that they are trying to train the horse before the person is taught how to do it, and that just gets messy. That's like letting me play with one of Robbie's dogs like that's not going to end. Well.

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Chris Brady: yeah. Well, you can get the Paul.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah, I suppose on that. You said the fine motor skills people have built up over muscle memory just for the likes of me and Anto, could you give us an example of something that's counterproductive that you see.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, absolutely. So. A lot of people are taught like, sit up straight on a horse. And what that straight away does is it hollows their back, and then they wonder why they have back pain. Because when you hollow your back your butt sticks out right, and you open your kind of your chest up in a way that's not really useful. So what we say to people is okay.

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Chris Brady: we want you to kind of like, lean forward a little bit, and then like, sit back. But like you're stacking your vertebrae one on top of the other, or else to pull their belly button back to their spine a little bit, and that will actually. And that's the same as Pilates, you know.

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Anthony Grogan: Me and him at the same time started here in the chair, started to soak in our bellywood.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, suck your belly button back to your spine, and there you go. That's your Pilates engagement.

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Anthony Grogan: Everything I've heard, because my wife's family would have had horse would have been sit up straight, elbows back, elbows in elbows, back.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Very rigid.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, very rigid. And you see, horses can't move then, and we are supposed to move with them. Now we don't be up there flopping around like a crazy person, either. But you have to have be like a ballerina up there in a way you have to like. Hold your posture together, but be fluid and allow movement. So that's tricky. Because people, I mean, I've seen it with a lot of working students from Germany in fairness. They're taught to ride.

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Chris Brady: They're usually quite advanced coming from Germany, but what they are is very stiff. So we spend a bit of time loosening them up, and then people tend to rely on the reins for their balance, so they're hanging on to their horse's mouth for for balance.

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Anthony Grogan: Heels and knees, legs.

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Chris Brady: No? Well, we're using our core strength, really. Yeah, core strength. And then also, if your posture is set up correctly, then you're kind of almost slotted onto the horse as opposed to, sat on its back. Yeah. And I suppose one of one of the big things we see all the time is people kicking their horse

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Chris Brady: to get them to go forward, and you've probably seen the cartoon, you know where the little kid and you see it in writing lessons up and down the country all over the place, you know the little kid sitting up on the little lazy pony kicking the ribs off, and the little kid is.

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Chris Brady: you know, sweating, you know, somebody chasing the pony behind, trying to get him to go, and little fat pony just kind of, you know, doesn't want to go, doesn't want to go putting in a little effort, but kicking a horse to go, or kicking a stubborn horse, you know it's there's easier and better ways to motivate.

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Chris Brady: motivate that type of force. And this is where the psychology comes in and from from our program, because some horses need motivation. Some horses need focus. Some horses need

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Chris Brady: obedience, another horse's need. What's the relaxation relaxation? So there's there's 4 different distinct things there. When you think of horses, horsnality. So some of them are introverts, and that's that little fat pony I'm talking about. He would we would categorize him as a left brain introvert

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Chris Brady: we won't go into. We won't go into that because it's that we could. We could get a whole podcast on that alone.

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Anthony Grogan: Give us! Give us a quick synopsis, left, right, brain.

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Chris Brady: So you probably have it with dogs as well. You have dogs that are probably quite extroverted, and have a lot of energy to burn off, and they want to move their feet, you know, and you probably have to kind of play a little bit before you can expect them to be quite obedient, maybe bring them for a long walk or something, and then at the end of your walk, during a training session. So we have that with horses. We have extroverted horses. They need to move their feet before they can concentrate.

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Chris Brady: and then we have other horses, and that what happens is they need to process what's happening before they move. So I always make the joke that my major life decisions have been made while I was out for a walk or looking at horses, stables, whereas Chris needs to sit down with a pen and paper whenever he has to make any big decisions, and he goes. We'll sit down now this evening and we'll and I'm like, No, no, no, no.

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Chris Brady: So I'm a little more extroverted. And Chris is a little more introverted. Okay. So that's the 1st thing to understand.

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Chris Brady: And then we just look at how close the horse is in its nature to being a prey animal.

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Chris Brady: So like being almost like a deer versus being like a horse that's in your pockets, you know, is is mugging you for treats, and is too friendly, is trying to step on your toes. You know they're they're too, and almost towards dominant. And so we teach people how to identify.

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Chris Brady: And their horse. And then it's like there's categories. And what we find then is once they can kind of understand the horse. The system is an awful lot, easier to to follow, because once you understand your horse or your dog, you can naturally, almost, you know, tailor your program to them. So that's a big area of study horse analogy.

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Anthony Grogan: No, that's that's brilliant, and I'm only after twig. And right now don't step on me. Toes comes from fucking horses.

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Anthony Grogan: We can do that few things there's after coming up. Yeah, that the

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Anthony Grogan: correct me. If I'm wrong, I can't get this visual on my mind. So, especially when when Chris mentioned the the 4 sixes or Sarah you mentioned, I think.

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Anthony Grogan: and I'm a huge fan. Always have been since I was young, the kind of cowboys and Indians and the Westerns, and the so on. And then you went back kind of

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Anthony Grogan: the analogy of, you know, sitting on the horse, more kind of in a more natural rather than a more kind of what you say, postural, regal kind of form, and that

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Anthony Grogan: when you look at those films, and I'm not saying, it's as simple as this, but you look at the Indians getting up on the back of a horse. It looked kind of like seamless. They were kind of at one with the horse, you know.

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Chris Brady: Absolutely. Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: And I don't like a really really simplified, but I kind of get that kind of

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Anthony Grogan: you're trying to be more more at one with the horse rather than more. Now, exactly.

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Anthony Grogan: And yeah.

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Chris Brady: Exactly, because it's really not about submission. And you know, being telling, you hear this a lot around horses, you have to show them who's boss, and I that one really kind of grates on me. I go. No, you just have to be a good leader.

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Anthony Grogan: You know, good instructor, good leader, and I know that you say that. And I'm not dragging you. Do you want to finish the principles first? st

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Chris Brady: Yes.

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Anthony Grogan: Before I drag you a different direction.

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Chris Brady: So there's another one. The attitude of justice is effective. Now that's a bit wordy. And even people who study the program sometimes ask me what that one means, but it basically means and the good. There's a good example to give. Right. If if, say, for example, a horse

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Chris Brady: you know.

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Chris Brady: just comes a little bit too close to you, but it's very soft, and, like, you know, they're not really pushing on your space. You can very softly ask them to back up. Okay. But if say, for example, there was someone here and their horses running at them with the teeth bared and going to put them in hospital. I'm probably to react a lot stronger and a lot firmer than to to keep that person out of A and E,

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Chris Brady: okay, so that's our kind of our balance, of our phases. It's not fair. If if we have a lovely little lovely horse here, Safie, she's a real sweetheart. If she kind of walked into your space, and you just like I don't know.

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Chris Brady: went at her with a flag, or start waving a stick around or your coat at her. Oh, my God! She'd be 3 counties over, you know. She'd be very that would really upset her. But also, if you have a horse. That's like really trying to to do you an injury. And I've seen horses go at people like they'll go for the jugular with their teeth bared.

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Chris Brady: you know there's no point then at that point, going like just waving your fingers and hoping that that's enough, like you need like a stick or something to like, you know, to just say, you know, make your. And it's not about whacking. It's just about making your space bigger, you know, Rob, I know we had conversations about dog training, and you've seen you've seen.

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Chris Brady: You've seen the stick people and you've seen the carrot people, we call them, you know, the treat people. And then the stick people like. And you know, we've had conversations where you know. I know you told me you've seen some guys kind of using methods that you wouldn't. You know that you wouldn't use or I wouldn't use.

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Chris Brady: And and, you know, based on kind of force, fear, and intimidation. But again going back to delivering information. It has to be fair and just, you know, if I just walk up to a horse and whack him on the head. But sometimes, if that horse is coming, you know, with his teeth bearing at me, you know. Of course, I'm going to whack him. Well, it's anything to stay out of any, you know.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, no.

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Chris Brady: Be effective when you.

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Anthony Grogan: When you say that there's a very small, very small amount of people who do that, and as a regular thing.

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Anthony Grogan: But.

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Chris Brady: I mean.

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Anthony Grogan: In terms of horses. They're so big and powerful they could do you a serious injury really like, I'm actually terrified of horses, even though I'm talking about horses just because they have a mind of their own they weigh. I don't know. How much does the average horse weigh.

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Chris Brady: Well, well, my horse is up about 700 kilos at the moment.

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Anthony Grogan: Kilos of 4 crazy hoofs and teeth that could hurt you before you get in there and start playing. You'd really not want to know what you're doing. Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: As you said, there we are still living in the real world. So we all have to go to work. We have to rear families, and so on.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, if it, if it requires that no, no more than than if a dog is, is, is A

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Anthony Grogan: is being forceful or showing teeth and stuff like that. You have to stop that.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, you have to interrupt the pattern. Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, so, and and that principle just means that we have to read the situation and be fair and adjust correctly to to like whatever phases we need to use with the horse.

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Chris Brady: And then this number 7 is horses. Teach humans and humans teach horses. Yeah, so that's a that's a really good one, and I'm sure, and I don't know whether it's the same. We spoke about a little bit earlier, but

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Chris Brady: you know we have some students here, and we allow them to learn with our horses, because our horses are at a certain level. They're very high level. They respond really appropriately, most of the time given the correct information. So those horses, you know, I can put somebody up on my horse, and that horse can give them a really nice feel about how a horse should

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Chris Brady: act when given a certain cue or command

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Chris Brady: on their saddle, and they get that feeling, and they can take that feeling. Then maybe home, and and try and replicate it with their with their own horse. So that's the kind of principle there where horses teach humans, you know. We're not that, you know.

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Chris Brady: autocratic chauvinistic. To think that horses can't teach us.

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Chris Brady: and that we're you know that where we could only teach them. So I suppose that that's the the essence of that principle. If that makes sense.

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Anthony Grogan: I think it does make sense in in that. We're the one that's trying to get up on their back, not the other way around. So we have to. We have to try and figure out, I suppose, what way they want us to do that in in the do you know what I'm saying in in the.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, just wondering, would would say, for instance, if I wanted to, you know, learn how to to train a dog. And would it be a good idea for me. Say, to go with your established dogs. And you say, Okay, this, you teach me the command.

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Chris Brady: Okay, so you're gonna ask them for a retrieve, maybe, and you're gonna teach me how to do it. And then I

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Chris Brady: and you get the idea. I get the idea and then practice it on your dog. Would that work.

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Anthony Grogan: Like like it can't like as you, as you rightly said. There, like I've seen where

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Anthony Grogan: I've often been out, where where? You know before I had a range of what I would consider poor dogs. But looking back in hindsight now, normally I know it was. It was a poor poor handle, and that was me

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Anthony Grogan: but like that I've often seen that. Oh, sure, you know I have a couple of dogs. You take one dog, and and

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Anthony Grogan: there's there's no what would you say? There's not a a common thread on how how

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Anthony Grogan: to to perform as a as a hunter when using that dog, you know, so I would have had firsthand experience with this where I sent a dog away to be trained when I was 16.

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Anthony Grogan: So a spaniel, and he trained the dog, but never trained me.

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Anthony Grogan: so he actually did a really good job on the dog, but he just gave it back to me, but I did not know what I was doing.

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Anthony Grogan: so I learned a lot of bad habits. Now for you. I could bring you out and

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Anthony Grogan: show you what to do with my my lab like. He's he's 2 now. He's a little bit. He's still young for a lab, but he might do it. He might not do it, he might stop and look back at me and go. What are you asking me? Because you've never asked this to me before?

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Chris Brady: Yes.

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Anthony Grogan: Like. I can't actually answer that question like he might, he might not, but after we simplified it, and he understood what I was asking of him a hundred percent, I guarantee. Within half an hour he he'd be doing stuff for you.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we kind of like, do it in so far as so that people can get an understanding about where they're kind of working towards not that or what is possible.

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Chris Brady: You know, with our with when we look at like horses, teach humans. But it's also to remind us that it's not just humans teach horses, which is kind of you know that direct line, thinking that the real predator, thinking only only we're so Supreme Being that we can only teach them they can't teach us. So just reminds us to be open to the learning, from the, from the horse as well.

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Anthony Grogan: On that, Sarah. Right.

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Anthony Grogan: There's 1 thing I'm brutal at. I shoot something it drops, and then it's called marking. I'm not great at marking where that has dropped.

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Anthony Grogan: So I send the dog, and I think it's in this area. But the dog has a much better nose than me, and he's out there, and he starts pulling off a different direction. I have to have less of an ego.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Hold the dog in that area and go. No, I have to trust this fucker, yeah, he's telling.

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Anthony Grogan: yeah, yeah, he's over here. So I get that as well.

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Chris Brady: Yes, that's it. That's it. Yeah. Because, you know, we're asking them to do a job. So we have to allow them to do it, too. Like, yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris Brady: That's cool. Yeah, good. And then the final one is principles. So this is our 8 principles purpose. So the purpose is that we they? There's a job, or there's there's a reason we do this, not just for the sake of a maneuver and then so principles, purpose, and time are the tools of teaching.

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Chris Brady: You want me to. Okay, I well, I don't mind. So what? What that means to me?

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Chris Brady: you know particularly the the time element of it, you know. It's you know. It's a bit like, you know. I go out to train a horse, and I have a particular thing I want to achieve with it that day, and I have an hour to do it in.

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Chris Brady: you know. Usually when I go out there with that attitude. Things don't go well.

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Chris Brady: and the horse, I would. All we would say is in charge of the timeline I'm in charge of, you know, delivering the information I'm in charge of being principled, and and I'm in charge of, and so giving that horse a task to do which is a purpose.

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Chris Brady: But we would always say the horses in charge of the timeline they could take. You know I was trailer loading 2 horses out here this evening.

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Chris Brady: The 1st one took me probably about an hour, and to work walk through. He's, you know, horses. They're born cowards, claustrophobic skeptics and panicholics by nature in various degrees, depending on their their innate characteristics, their learned behavior, their environment, their spirit. And so

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Chris Brady: so one of them, and you know, very claustrophobic individual didn't want to go into the horse box, and it took me about an hour. But that's okay. It just, you know. We just went through the process with him, build his confidence in and out of the box, and he, trailer, loaded nicely in the end. The second horse walked straight into the box.

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Chris Brady: Both of them have been through the same amount of training, the same kind of tools, techniques, and but you know their personality and lent to one of them taking a lot more time than the other. But if I had went out there expecting both of them to win, you know, straight off the bat, I'd have probably got frustrated, or probably got. You know, you know, a lot of people get mean and mad around horseboxes, because

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Chris Brady: it's it's, you know, some of the worst behavior I've seen in horses and humans and shows up around horse boxes because it's so frustrating. They're usually late for a show, or

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Chris Brady: you know, and you know, you've got to get them into the box, and it becomes force, fear, and intimidation, and that does not bode well with a prey. Animal.

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Anthony Grogan: And I have a question in relation to that particular scenario, was the second horse in

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Anthony Grogan: vision of the 1st scenario.

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Anthony Grogan: Well, what.

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Chris Brady: Bad.

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Anthony Grogan: Is, did he manage to see it happening and go? Oh, you understand? And copycat the first.st

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Chris Brady: That can be useful. Actually, it can't now, maybe not in this situation, because I think that the other horse we did do a lot of work on him. He was here last year as well, and we did a lot of trailer loading, so he was like dude. I know the drill.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris Brady: Well, we do do a lot of using a bit of copycatting. So what we do is we call it's called ponying horses. Okay, so you'd often see it, you know, on the Westerns where one guy would ride out and he'd bring a spare horse. So that's ponying right? So we do a lot of that with young horses, because the silhouette of someone on their back

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Chris Brady: of a person on a horse's back. They may have never seen that before, and they they just think that's crazy. And so you will see. Youngsters will stop and watch someone. Young horses will stop and watch a horse being ridden, and and then we use the ponying to kind of get that horse used to being seeing someone at that height and close proximity to where they would be sitting if they were in the saddle. So they do learn by by watching as well.

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Anthony Grogan: You're introducing small like, small enough like, similar to in our gig, where you know. Say that you're you're throwing the ball first, st then you might clap your hands, or you're introducing rather than going out 1st day 1st November as

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Anthony Grogan: shooting a shotgun over, and that's the 1st time they've ever heard of it. As you said, these are all new experiences for for the horse, so you're kind of slowly introducing rather than.

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Chris Brady: Okay.

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Anthony Grogan: Toronto saddle on us, and yeah wouldn't expect everyone to go.

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Chris Brady: Expect there's an old saying you can shoot a gun off of any horse once.

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Anthony Grogan: I dream I dream about that a lot.

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Chris Brady: But again I I would say, you know, and the last time you should ever go trailer loading your horse is when you need to go somewhere. You know that that's

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Chris Brady: part that's part of our program is, you know, is trailer loading, you know, is just to expose a horse to the possible, the probable, and the inevitable, so that when it comes to going to the show it's not a big deal. You know that your horse just walks in calm, confident, and obedient.

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Chris Brady: And yeah, so that's the kind of time element of it there. The last principle there. Principle number 8, yeah. And it's just something like, because this this kind of baffled me for years. How does all of this training work with horses? And the thing about it is is, horses are naturally curious. Okay, they're naturally curious. If you.

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Chris Brady: we have a digger parked in the middle of the field this evening, and I'm sure that, like all 4 of them now at this point have gone over to have a look, so they can only be curious, though, when they're confident.

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Chris Brady: So curiosity is a great marker for me of how confident or unconfident they are. And if they're very hesitant about something, I just go. Okay. You're just not there yet. We need to build your confidence, but that's why, like horses and dogs, they're quite willing to please.

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Chris Brady: They want a quiet life. They don't want hardship. They want to kind of do the job, get it done, and then go back and hang out with their friends.

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Chris Brady: And they, you know, and I've even seen horses that when you taught them a very like complicated maneuver, or something like that.

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Chris Brady: like you'd get a feeling often that they almost feel smarter. Didn't didn't know that that was possible, and you know they have a better kind of

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Chris Brady: overall feeling to them is what I suppose I'm trying to say. But that's why it works. Yeah, because they want to learn. Horses want to learn, but it just has to be given to them in a way that's palatable.

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Chris Brady: Yeah. And and the and the crux of our program are, there's 7 games that horses basically play with each other. And we teach people how to play those games, and you'd often hear our mentor of hat saying, these 7 games are your diagnostic tools, but they're also your prescription.

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Chris Brady: And so we talk about a friendly game, or which is which is basically building a horse's confidence in in

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Chris Brady: in every area. Yeah. So like, say, shooting the gun that would be built for a dog that would be building their confidence. You might start off with something small, making small noise, and then build it up to where you can actually.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah. So that's that. That friendly game is how to break things down into palatable bite-sized chunks for them so that they can understand it, and they don't feel overwhelmed by it. Yeah, so, and you know, the next game we teach them is to basically follow a field. So when you and everything you do when you're riding a horse is you're asking it, touching them. You're touching them with your legs. You're holding their, you know, basically holding their reins with the bit in their mouth. You're touching them. So it's asking them to yield

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Chris Brady: to and from steady pressure, which is the touching which is touching. Yeah, so, and the next game, then, is for your horse to yield to and from rhythmical pressure. So whether that's with your tools, whether it's a flag or a stick and string, or just, you know, moving, you know, energy towards your horse in a in a kind of rhythmical fashion.

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Chris Brady: and to send them in a certain direction, and that's what that's what they learn from their mothers. They learn the driving game from their mothers when they're born, because the mother will will very quickly show them that the foal needs to come with the mother to stay alive, because they don't know that they were born when they're born. The mother's prey. Animal instincts are very high at that time.

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Chris Brady: and once the foal hits the ground and is up on its feet, it needs to be ready to move, so she'll very quickly there and then teach it by using a driving game, and that's by affecting the area around the horse as opposed to actually touching it, so she might use her ears. She might use her tail, she might use her long body or her neck to kind of push him over or push him out of the way. So these are all what we call driving games, and those are.

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Anthony Grogan: Very very interesting. Yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah. So they're the primary 3 games that we teach people. And the the next 4 games are just a combination of of those 3 games and asking the horse to move in certain directions and over stuff under stuff.

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Chris Brady: around. And then we talk about patterns. We teach people, you know, online on the ground patterns. We say online because this program was was established in 1982 when there was no Internet. So you know, called on the groundwork, which is basically your horse on the end of a lead line. He called it online.

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Chris Brady: People get a little bit confused. But is that on a computer is that, do we qualify online? Is it a

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Chris Brady: got to play online with our horses?

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, the the methodology, then, like this, this program does like, obviously, there's different disciplines within

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Anthony Grogan: a horseman like the horse universe. And

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Anthony Grogan: does it transcend all of them like, you know, is it? Yes.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, it's a foundation program. So it's the foundation. It's like, the primary school education for a horse. If you think every everyone needs to go through primary school and get to 6th class.

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Chris Brady: And then, you know, in secondary school as well, and before they go into college and start, diversify and specialize in certain areas. So you need that kind of primary school and secondary school education. And then you can be an accountant, or you can be an artist, or you can be a scientist, you know, so that will for us will be the dressage or the Western

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Chris Brady: performance or the show jumper.

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Chris Brady: the eventer. So that's the university. But a lot of horses are just starting straight away at university level. And it's why there's such high levels of attrition and failure for them, because they don't really understand the job. Yeah, they don't have the proper foundation.

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Anthony Grogan: Have the apprenticeship done. It's like sending somebody straight from from primary school out to there. You go start that job

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Anthony Grogan: sure, Bill, that you know it's it's not. It's not really fair.

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Chris Brady: Crazy. Yeah, yeah, you're setting them up for failure. Really? Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: I suppose, to jump across to our world for a sec.

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Anthony Grogan: and to try bring horses into our realm. Have you ever had any involvement, or seen the hunts? And what's your thoughts on it? Have you ever taken part.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, I used well, I used to hunt when I was younger, like like when I was a kid, I used to hunt, and you know, back then it was oh, it was like it was just great fun. And just go go go, go, and you know you never really thought about like if you fell off, or if you hurt yourself or that but then, as I

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Chris Brady: kind of got, you know, back into the horses and with those problem horses. That was something that I did try to get back into. But the horse that we had

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Chris Brady: like he just kept bolting, and the last hunt, not the last second last hunt I did. I brought him through the gate, and I purposefully was like within the last 5 horses to go through the gate and pay my cap

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Chris Brady: but within 5 min I was like the 3rd horse on the on the hunt. He just he was a 3rd bred. He just raced past every other horse, and he was out of control. He was just running with the herd, but

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Chris Brady: the flip side is, that is, I did have the great horse that I had like. She was an amazing horse. I had so much communication built up with her, and such a strong relationship that I knew if I brought her hunting

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Chris Brady: I wouldn't have had the problems I had, because she listened, she would always listen to me, and that's now the ethos that is transpiring with my chestnut mare as well. So that's kind of when you have a good horse that listen.

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Chris Brady: Nothing is a problem. When you have a horse that doesn't listen.

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Chris Brady: Everything's a problem.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, I suppose, growing up, I used to go hunting the the lady who actually taught me to to really ride, and Jane Foley and Jane has. Jane still teaches young kids. Now she's she's had such an influence over thousands of young kids from, you know, all over, you know, Tala and Calare region. She has a place up here in Warrenstown, not. You probably pass it by going to work in the morning, Robbie. And

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Chris Brady: but yeah, and Jane used to take me hunting, and we used to. I used to ride our hunters and her polar ponies, so I I kind of grew up around that that

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Chris Brady: and

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Chris Brady: this that discipline, if you like, and I loved it, and you know hunting is such, you know it's woven into the fabric of rural life, you know, and I'd love to see it continue. And because, like the horse industry in itself, like it's a billion euro industry. And you know, we have traditional Irish horses here. We've a couple of foreign horses as well, but primarily we have the Irish draft, and which which would be the stable, you know.

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Chris Brady: if you look back, and one of the kind of mythical stories about the Irish draft, and how it got its name during World War one, if you take the horses around that era on a farm, they would have been ploughing the fields Monday to Friday. On

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Chris Brady: a Saturday they would have went hunting, and then on a Sunday they would have had the

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Chris Brady: the horse and cart behind it, where they would have put their family on to go, so they had to be. They had to be strong enough to do the work. Monday to Friday. They had to have the stamina to go hunting on a Saturday, and they had to be pretty enough to pull a cart on a Sunday. So that's there you go. There's the Irish raft for you, and those horses were. A lot of those were drafted into the British army during World War one, and that's kind of some people say that's how they got their name, but

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Chris Brady: I think the breed existed long before then.

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Chris Brady: But and but they're the type of horses that we have. We've hunted, you know. I had a black and white mare that I hunted here for for a number of years with with the local hunt here and during the Celtic tiger

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Chris Brady: years and things got a little bit silly because everybody had money. Sure, every Tom, Dick, and Hurry that that could lease a horse

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Chris Brady: and showed up at Hansen.

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Chris Brady: So your traditional hunt would be somewhere between 30 and 40 horses with a normal hunt a normal hunt would have been about 30, but these hunts got so big. There were maybe 180 people, 180 horses on the last. So you can imagine 180 horses, and probably, you know.

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Chris Brady: a good 3rd of those people riding on that didn't know the etiquette of hunting. They didn't understand why you hunt. They didn't understand, you know.

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Chris Brady: like just being respectful around the land, and you know, keeping to the headlands and respecting people's property. And and you know it just got a little bit crazy around that particular area. I got badly injured on the last hunt I was on, and due to just just another writer and

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Chris Brady: and just inexperienced rider that that just put me in a predicament where myself my horse got injured, and and that was primarily why. And I was in around the time we found this this particular program as well, which kind of steered us in a whole new direction. But yeah, no, I love hunting.

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Anthony Grogan: Funny enough

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Anthony Grogan: you were saying. There, Chris, like that. That's I. Just go back to the draft element. Obviously, at the minute, right? There's there's huge

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Anthony Grogan: kick back against, you know our community in in the hunting, and obviously that the horse industry has seen its fair share as well over the last couple of years, you know.

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Anthony Grogan: and

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Anthony Grogan: a lot of it unjustly, and some of it may be warranted, but like and I mean that in both sides, both ours and yours. But we can all do better at times, you know, but like like that, there's

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Anthony Grogan: just this this week. I think there's there's a Bill going through or trying to be pushed through.

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01:18:05.920 --> 01:18:08.689
Anthony Grogan: for, you know, to ban haunting, you know.

435
01:18:09.810 --> 01:18:11.840
Anthony Grogan: a horse and hound, and so on.

436
01:18:12.320 --> 01:18:13.079
Anthony Grogan: I like that.

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01:18:13.780 --> 01:18:18.030
Anthony Grogan: There, there's there's a community there that's

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Anthony Grogan: that a lot of people don't understand, you know it's not. It's not a case. And I think it's more than just.

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Anthony Grogan: you know people see it are are proposing as an inverted commas elitist you you just pointed out the very reason why it's not. It's it was back in the day. It was work.

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Anthony Grogan: the Saturday hunt, and then the Sunday bringing the family to mass, or, you know, going out to shop whatever you know, the cart or whatever. So it was like it was like, it's far from that. It's not and I've been to to the Hunts now, and and like it was something that I didn't

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Anthony Grogan: understand a whole pile before I went. There's a huge community there, like, from from kids right up to elder statesmen and women, and it's a huge part of rural life, I think, from both our community and yours. If that was to be taken.

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Anthony Grogan: I think I think.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: It's more than just

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Anthony Grogan: just a hunt we're missing out on. It's the. It's the community aspect, it is. Yeah, it's a social

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Anthony Grogan: it's hard to explain that to people who are not

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Anthony Grogan: from a room background, I think, you know, or from from our background, you know.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, I definitely think the hunting community. And and I mean, like your community. And and you know the horse hunting community, there's nobody, and there's nobody more. You know, when it comes to

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Chris Brady: preserving wildlife and and the rural rural communities putting stuff back into into that aspect of it, like the the haunted community are, you know, when it comes to conservation? Of.

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01:20:00.280 --> 01:20:11.560
Chris Brady: you know, birds and wildlife, and you know there's nobody better than hunting community to to bring that to the fore. Yeah. And what's what's happened in the horse world in the last few years is

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Chris Brady: there's a huge ethics. Now question over horse training and like there are even like movements towards that, like horses shouldn't be ridden anymore. They're trying to come up with, you know this. This is this is across the board, and I feel all right. But the only thing, the good that that

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Chris Brady: the good that can come out of it is that we look at how we're doing things and making sure that we're doing it for the benefit and not like what Chris talked about like in the Celtic area. Anyone with €150 could show up and lease a horse, and no questions asked whether they could ride or not, or, you know, put their lives in danger. So I think.

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Anthony Grogan: They can't get insured anymore, sir.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, they can't get it short.

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Anthony Grogan: Assurance, for a hunt is through the roof at the moment.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, true, yeah. And like our local hunt had closed down because and like that was the hunt I hunted with as a child, and that that has closed down because of of that reason. But you know we we do need to kind of start to look at things and be and be clever, you know about it, and and make sure that, like, we're not putting ourselves in danger. And we're not putting our animals in danger, and you know the same the same with the dogs, you know, because I'm sure you you guys have heard like

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Chris Brady: things that are unethical with dogs and hunting and things like that. And it's like, Oh, hold on! That's not what we do. You know, we're trying to.

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Anthony Grogan: 100%. And I think

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Anthony Grogan: all of the field sports don't. Don't get me wrong. Right? We we do huge conservation, a

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Anthony Grogan: packages and and fucking, working with kids. Anto does a huge amount of that.

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Chris Brady: Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: But there's a dioxide.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, there's a dark side to everything. Yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: So that's that's where I was going, like there's poaching on our side. No, not our side, but I mean our sport.

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Chris Brady: Okay.

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Anthony Grogan: A dark. There's a dark side to everything, and I did see

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Anthony Grogan: Only around the corner from us, documentary

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Anthony Grogan: about horses. Do you know the documentary in Palmu.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah. Have you ever experienced or seen or like? Have you ever experienced the dark side of your sport?

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Chris Brady: Well, like we. We don't actually live too very far from there, like I used to pass that bringing the kids to school. Like, and I grew up here like. So I that that place was going when I wasn't on the Shannon side at that time. But since I was a child. That's been that avatar has been there. But yeah, this is where

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Chris Brady: we I haven't thankfully since. I suppose we stepped away from that world in 2,007. Occasionally I go on to yards, and there's things that I'm

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01:23:00.570 --> 01:23:03.810
Chris Brady: they're doing it in the best of the interest, and I'm like.

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Chris Brady: but all I can be is a good example. I've learned that I've learned that the hard way, and you cannot force your ethos or your methodology on someone. They have to be ready to take that on board with great saying, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear

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Chris Brady: but and and like over the years, I suppose Chris and I didn't really do a whole lot of advertising or anything like that, because I used to always say, if they find me. They'll be easy to teach.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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Chris Brady: Yeah, but but now people are starting to look for that like, and I don't know. In the last 5 or 6 years our business has gotten like we were busy before that, but it has gone through the roof with people looking for a more ethical way to train like even just this last 2 weeks. I have a new student. She's a German girl. She was in Dublin.

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Chris Brady: and she went out to a few riding places, and she really didn't like what she saw, and she wanted something more working with the horse. And then the boyfriend found us for her, and so

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Chris Brady: there is no, there is a movement towards better and fairer treatment of animals, and you know, and and regulation of the sport, I suppose.

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Anthony Grogan: Suppose it's an evolution, in a sense, isn't it like it was we were. Obviously we all grew up with a no different than dog world. We grew up with. A kind of a set of it was that was the way it was done, you know.

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Anthony Grogan: you know. So. But now we know we have, we have things that we've. As you rightly said, we've Internet and and science and neuroscience and psychology, and so on things that didn't exist back in the day. So while we always have to give a nod to

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01:24:46.100 --> 01:24:53.760
Anthony Grogan: the the what would you say? The the forefathers, and the forebears of of, because without them we wouldn't be having this discussion today. And

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Anthony Grogan: but we we also have to recognize that there can be a better way. There can be a more evolved, more intelligent, or a more. In some cases it can be simpler, you know, it doesn't have to be a more difficult approach.

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01:25:12.490 --> 01:25:14.709
Chris Brady: Yeah. And you know, you know.

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Chris Brady: like farmers, anyone that there's a saying in in the farming community. If you have livestock, you have dead stock.

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Anthony Grogan: Yeah, yeah.

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01:25:22.900 --> 01:25:36.706
Chris Brady: So, and you know we've had horses here over the years that we've had to. We've, you know, have died on us, and we've had to have horses euthanized, and you know we've had to help people through that process as well. And usually

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Chris Brady: And when it's come to, when it's come to that.

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Chris Brady: We would bring our horse to the the local hunt because they have the hounds. They would euthanize the horse. The carcass then, would be butchered and fed back into the into the hunt. So it's almost like, you know, you know, I can say, you know, I can just avoid that, because, you know, hunting was very. I was very passionate about that. I can kind of say, yeah. Well, my horse has gone back to the hunt. Oh, yeah, that'd be a big thing. That's a big thing within that kind of horse community. There has to be an end of life.

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Chris Brady: treat like plant plan, or, you know, treat, you know, somewhere for horses to go for end of life. You know, unfortunately, that that Shannon so I placed down there was, you know, like you look at the beef industry. It's it's very well regulated. And that's that's really what we're looking for, you know, a facility, maybe like that. That's just, you know, that's run ethically, and it's regulated.

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01:26:29.780 --> 01:26:31.149
Anthony Grogan: Bit for purpose. Yeah.

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01:26:31.150 --> 01:26:36.829
Chris Brady: Yeah, but it's funny, because, like, we have a lot of clients who are vets and they work in the meat factories

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Chris Brady: and like the thing like the

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Chris Brady: the what they have to do in the meat factories to ensure like that everything is running smoothly and adhering to the standards.

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01:26:49.580 --> 01:27:18.310
Chris Brady: It's so high. So that needs just to come like filter in. But yeah, just what Chris was saying about the hunt, you know, and like personally, that was always like for my horses. That's that's always my 1st choice, and failing that, then I will, you know, have the vet do the job, but I'd much rather that they were. They went to the hunt and did it because I've seen it not go so well with with you know, with the.

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Anthony Grogan: I'm telling you.

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Chris Brady: I'd much rather it's it's a

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01:27:21.930 --> 01:27:29.059
Chris Brady: much cleaner, quicker way. Yeah. Do you want to talk about that that horse, Rugby, that that we helped.

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Anthony Grogan: No, no.

500
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Chris Brady: I don't know.

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01:27:32.370 --> 01:27:40.179
Anthony Grogan: Over that but I do have a question, because because we were talking about your horses, and you've had horses getting sick in the past.

502
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Anthony Grogan: And is there any particular

503
01:27:43.290 --> 01:27:49.809
Anthony Grogan: herbal like? If a if a horse has a problem with its kidneys, it seeks out something.

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Chris Brady: Yes.

505
01:27:50.960 --> 01:27:51.720
Anthony Grogan: Is there?

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01:27:51.940 --> 01:27:53.910
Anthony Grogan: Oh, yeah, absolutely

507
01:27:53.910 --> 01:28:01.559
Anthony Grogan: dogs to eat long green grass at certain times of the year, and I don't have a clue, but they all do it. So if it's the same with horses, please enlighten.

508
01:28:01.560 --> 01:28:07.019
Chris Brady: Yes, oh, absolutely. So. Yeah, I've done a lot of study into like both

509
01:28:07.497 --> 01:28:19.299
Chris Brady: like, that's a big area of interest of mine. So there's a thing called Zoo pharmacognizy, and it's all one word, but it actually works for dogs, and it works for horses, because

510
01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:43.899
Chris Brady: they have what they call the Vno. Now we have it as embryo or as we have it, as babies up on before we're born up to 38 weeks, and then it disappears in the human. But the horses and the dogs have it. It's why they have such superior sense of smell. Now, I'm actually really doing probably not the best job of explaining this, because if you go look up zoo pharmacognancy, there's loads of people there.

511
01:28:43.900 --> 01:28:48.659
Chris Brady: There's loads of information on it, but they can select

512
01:28:48.660 --> 01:29:11.819
Chris Brady: for themselves what they need. So you'd often see horses eating like dandelions, because that's so good for the liver and the kidneys different different herbs, chamomile, lots of different things. So there's zoo pharmacognancy which is really good. And then I have also studied with a woman called Sharon Bronsfeld.

513
01:29:11.940 --> 01:29:15.819
Chris Brady: and she has a new website, and

514
01:29:15.930 --> 01:29:36.820
Chris Brady: off the top of my head I cannot remember the name, but if you type in the horse therapist it will redirect you to her site, and that covers dogs as well, dogs and horses. And that's a lot of information about herbs. And so it's a huge area of interest of mine. Yeah, we could do a whole podcast no, I could get.

515
01:29:36.820 --> 01:29:37.270
Anthony Grogan: Weekly.

516
01:29:37.270 --> 01:29:38.549
Chris Brady: Know what they're doing.

517
01:29:38.550 --> 01:29:41.840
Anthony Grogan: Pno, vno, is, yeah, is that? Yeah?

518
01:29:41.840 --> 01:29:42.570
Anthony Grogan: Hello.

519
01:29:43.130 --> 01:29:47.190
Chris Brady: It's it's the it's a vaso nasal.

520
01:29:47.700 --> 01:29:48.990
Chris Brady: Oh, now.

521
01:29:48.990 --> 01:29:52.960
Anthony Grogan: But what does it mean? Like? Not the exact name. Just what does it do.

522
01:29:52.960 --> 01:30:03.489
Chris Brady: Okay, so it's it's in. When the horses or the dogs smell this, it signals the brain right? So if it's kind of and and

523
01:30:04.110 --> 01:30:28.860
Chris Brady: kind of signals the brain to start a process. So say, for example, I have a horse here, and it might have a few anger issues when that smells vanilla vanilla is very good for anger and horses, and when that it can kind of trigger them and help them to release that tension or that kind of anxiety that they might have around that. But also.

524
01:30:29.070 --> 01:30:57.710
Chris Brady: I mean and there's loads of studies being done on this. I think elephants did it. They did a study on elephants in India, where they all marched off, and they ate some. They ate all these berries, but too many of these berries can be toxic. So then they all marched off to some other plant, and then they ate that plant and it balanced it out for themselves. So that's what the dogs are doing when they're eating the grass. But yeah, so I'll give you another example of that. Robbie would be. For instance, I know Sarah's

525
01:30:57.790 --> 01:31:06.830
Chris Brady: Sarah know a lot more about this than I, but but the likes of devil's claw, which would be which would be a herb, so that that would

526
01:31:07.250 --> 01:31:25.070
Chris Brady: that would be used for kind of reducing inflammation. So I have that in a little kind of droplet form it's a little small, so I might put some of that in my hand, and I'd ask a horse to maybe lick it off my hand, so if they really wanted.

527
01:31:25.540 --> 01:31:45.189
Chris Brady: if they had any sort of inflammation, and it's very interesting, because if they wanted that through their digestive system they would lick it with the front of their tongue at the top at the top of their tongue, and you feel the kind of roughness on the top of their tongue. But if they wanted it into their blood system. They take it in through the back of their tongue.

528
01:31:45.300 --> 01:31:55.370
Chris Brady: And it's really interesting when you offer the likes of those essential oils to a horse that they will put it into their system how they need it. It's fascinating.

529
01:31:55.370 --> 01:31:56.660
Anthony Grogan: That is.

530
01:31:56.660 --> 01:31:57.170
Chris Brady: Yeah.

531
01:31:57.280 --> 01:32:09.910
Anthony Grogan: I could talk to you 2 all day genuinely. Yeah, it's it's it's a whole different. As Chris. You probably said it. There, there's probably 2 or 3 podcasts in there, in different elements of that, I know we're kind of.

532
01:32:09.910 --> 01:32:10.370
Chris Brady: And.

533
01:32:10.380 --> 01:32:25.659
Anthony Grogan: We're condensing it. But it's good to start at this this point. Yeah, because it's a very good introduction for for our world as opposed to. And I tell you how I know you know exactly what you're talking about is because you just you say something and move on right.

534
01:32:25.850 --> 01:32:38.609
Anthony Grogan: And it's it's nothing to you, because you know it and understand it. And when we bring you back and question you on something, you're able to drill down straight away. Make it simple for us to pick up on. So thank you very much. Absolutely.

535
01:32:38.610 --> 01:32:57.395
Chris Brady: Thank you. Thank you very much. I found what I did a quick search there about the Vno, so it says here, and this is from dogsfirst.ie. But I just typed in vno zoo pharmacognancy. And actually the girl that we studied with her name is Carly Hillier, and she?

536
01:32:57.810 --> 01:33:12.350
Chris Brady: she! I think she. She was involved in writing this article, but it basically says dogs have a secondary olivactory organ which gives them the ability to send far superior to our own. The organ called the Veno

537
01:33:12.780 --> 01:33:15.230
Chris Brady: veno nasal organ.

538
01:33:15.700 --> 01:33:24.570
Chris Brady: There's my well-trained dogs is located above the roof of the dog's mouth and enables them to seek out medicinal cons

539
01:33:24.820 --> 01:33:30.183
Chris Brady: cause stuff within plans, store health

540
01:33:31.516 --> 01:33:53.719
Chris Brady: during the self medication process there was a number of pathways into the dog that into the body that the dog utilizes. So then again, it's ingestion inhalation, a topical application. Yeah. So that is I found that by just typing that in. And it was on dogsfirst.ie. So that might be like if someone was interested to go and have a look.

541
01:33:53.720 --> 01:34:02.999
Anthony Grogan: Absolutely. I think it's I've actually seen. Probably you've probably seen the same, you know, when they're out walking, and and people have dogs out walking, and they're over like eating

542
01:34:03.120 --> 01:34:08.850
Anthony Grogan: at the grass, or and I've seen their owners giving out. Come, come out, don't be, you know, like, literally.

543
01:34:08.850 --> 01:34:09.580
Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah.

544
01:34:09.870 --> 01:34:16.030
Anthony Grogan: Isn't. The dog is essentially probably looking at them, saying, You do know, I need to eat this. You know.

545
01:34:16.030 --> 01:34:34.689
Chris Brady: Yeah, yeah, it's funny, because we're told. Like, you know, this would be the old, the old wise tales. It's like, Oh, dogs will eat grass to make themselves sick. My dogs are always eating grass, and they don't go around vomiting all the time. They obviously need it, you know. Yeah, you know they're always they just nip the tops off the long grass, you know.

546
01:34:34.690 --> 01:34:40.389
Anthony Grogan: Absolutely guys. It's it's been. It's been a real bit. We're gonna have to do a part 2 to this. Yeah.

547
01:34:41.570 --> 01:34:43.090
Anthony Grogan: definitely, most definitely.

548
01:34:43.210 --> 01:34:49.220
Anthony Grogan: And the very, very best of luck with, if anyone wants to find you guys, where can we find you?

549
01:34:49.350 --> 01:34:49.950
Anthony Grogan: Super.

550
01:34:49.950 --> 01:35:13.579
Chris Brady: So yeah, our website is www, dot Pirelli instructors. So that's PARE. Double LIIN STRU. CTOR. S. Hyphen, ireland.com, or you just type in Chris Brady Pirelli, or Sarah Brady Pirelli. It'll come up Facebook, Instagram. We even have Tiktok, 3 videos.

551
01:35:14.165 --> 01:35:14.750
Anthony Grogan: Yeah.

552
01:35:14.750 --> 01:35:33.960
Chris Brady: Even if you Google, natural horsemanship, Ireland, or Chris and Sarah Brady, natural horsemanship or Pirelli. So what like we're, you know, we're the only 2 licensed professionals in Ireland to teach this program. So, and we're quite easy to find if you're looking for us.

553
01:35:33.960 --> 01:35:51.800
Anthony Grogan: Absolutely look, I'm sure, continued success guys, it's it's an amazing story. And it's an amazing success story. And as I say, you're part of the evolution of of both your sport, and obviously it transcends into ours. So thank you very much for taking the time to join.

554
01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:54.499
Chris Brady: Thank you very much. Thanks for avoidance guys.

555
01:35:55.010 --> 01:35:57.389
Chris Brady: Thank you very much. Thanks, guys. Take care.

556
01:35:57.390 --> 01:35:59.299
Anthony Grogan: Thanks overnight. Guys.

557
01:35:59.480 --> 01:36:01.340
Chris Brady: Bye, bye.

558
01:36:02.810 --> 01:36:03.320
Anthony Grogan: Are you still.