{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.68,"endTime":4.0,"body":"ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the"},{"startTime":2.12,"endTime":6.319,"body":"primate cast we're your hosts Andrew"},{"startTime":4.0,"endTime":8.04,"body":"Macintosh and Chris Martin and today"},{"startTime":6.319,"endTime":10.28,"body":"we're both really excited to be able to"},{"startTime":8.04,"endTime":12.679,"body":"present the first of a series of five"},{"startTime":10.28,"endTime":15.2,"body":"upcoming podcasts in which we present"},{"startTime":12.679,"endTime":17.72,"body":"interviews that we conducted recently at"},{"startTime":15.2,"endTime":20.279,"body":"a conference in Kyoto that's right we"},{"startTime":17.72,"endTime":21.8,"body":"just got back from the annual Research"},{"startTime":20.279,"endTime":23.56,"body":"Conference of The International"},{"startTime":21.8,"endTime":25.279,"body":"Institute of advanced studies this year"},{"startTime":23.56,"endTime":26.96,"body":"it was on The evolutionary origins of"},{"startTime":25.279,"endTime":29.56,"body":"the human mind it was a really"},{"startTime":26.96,"endTime":32.8,"body":"interesting conference partly because of"},{"startTime":29.56,"endTime":35.48,"body":"how br it was uh we had a lot of"},{"startTime":32.8,"endTime":37.76,"body":"speakers coming to discuss things from"},{"startTime":35.48,"endTime":40.559,"body":"chimpanzee culture right through"},{"startTime":37.76,"endTime":42.44,"body":"cognitive developmental Robotics and"},{"startTime":40.559,"endTime":44.96,"body":"that was really incredible to see some"},{"startTime":42.44,"endTime":46.8,"body":"of these robot talks it was great and we"},{"startTime":44.96,"endTime":49.399,"body":"had the opportunity to visit one of"},{"startTime":46.8,"endTime":53.239,"body":"these researchers Dr Hiroshi ishiguro in"},{"startTime":49.399,"endTime":55.199,"body":"his lab um just outside of Kyoto where"},{"startTime":53.239,"endTime":57.079,"body":"he has worked on a number of projects"},{"startTime":55.199,"endTime":59.039,"body":"one of which led to the development of"},{"startTime":57.079,"endTime":60.519,"body":"the geminoid that's an Android that"},{"startTime":59.039,"endTime":62.96,"body":"looks"},{"startTime":60.519,"endTime":65.64,"body":"very similar to him almost identical to"},{"startTime":62.96,"endTime":67.2,"body":"him eerily similar to him indeed it even"},{"startTime":65.64,"endTime":69.52,"body":"uses his own"},{"startTime":67.2,"endTime":71.479,"body":"hair which he grew out just for that"},{"startTime":69.52,"endTime":73.2,"body":"purpose but so for our listeners you"},{"startTime":71.479,"endTime":74.84,"body":"have to check us out on the primate cast"},{"startTime":73.2,"endTime":76.56,"body":"at Facebook and you'll be able to see"},{"startTime":74.84,"endTime":78.92,"body":"those pictures of us with the geminoid"},{"startTime":76.56,"endTime":81.4,"body":"we'll post those there but it was it was"},{"startTime":78.92,"endTime":83.68,"body":"really interesting that uh some many of"},{"startTime":81.4,"endTime":86.04,"body":"these researchers in cognitive Robotics"},{"startTime":83.68,"endTime":88.32,"body":"are also tackling the issue of the"},{"startTime":86.04,"endTime":90.92,"body":"evolution of the of the human mind in"},{"startTime":88.32,"endTime":93.2,"body":"both in terms of better understanding in"},{"startTime":90.92,"endTime":95.28,"body":"us but also better understanding how we"},{"startTime":93.2,"endTime":96.56,"body":"might Advance the field of Robotics"},{"startTime":95.28,"endTime":98.24,"body":"right and a lot of that involves"},{"startTime":96.56,"endTime":100.439,"body":"interaction studies between humans"},{"startTime":98.24,"endTime":102.799,"body":"between humans and robots so there's a"},{"startTime":100.439,"endTime":105.079,"body":"lot of overlap with human psychology and"},{"startTime":102.799,"endTime":107.04,"body":"maybe Evolution as well speaking of"},{"startTime":105.079,"endTime":109.719,"body":"interactions the geminoid wasn't the"},{"startTime":107.04,"endTime":111.719,"body":"only robot we were able to have fun with"},{"startTime":109.719,"endTime":114.28,"body":"you also had a nice segment there with a"},{"startTime":111.719,"endTime":116.56,"body":"robot called the telenoid that's right"},{"startTime":114.28,"endTime":118.759,"body":"it's this crazy robot that you hold in"},{"startTime":116.56,"endTime":120.079,"body":"your hands and it talks to you someone"},{"startTime":118.759,"endTime":121.96,"body":"talks to you over the telephone through"},{"startTime":120.079,"endTime":124.36,"body":"the robot and it's really kind of a"},{"startTime":121.96,"endTime":125.799,"body":"bizarre experience and so we were able"},{"startTime":124.36,"endTime":127.24,"body":"to get some video of that as well and"},{"startTime":125.799,"endTime":129.84,"body":"we're going to put that on the primate"},{"startTime":127.24,"endTime":132.0,"body":"cast Facebook page and that also has"},{"startTime":129.84,"endTime":133.12,"body":"Professor dwall talking to the telenoid"},{"startTime":132.0,"endTime":136.239,"body":"right who we're going to have in a"},{"startTime":133.12,"endTime":138.04,"body":"minute here so please check that out"},{"startTime":136.239,"endTime":141.879,"body":"check that out so getting back to the"},{"startTime":138.04,"endTime":144.36,"body":"conference now another announcement is"},{"startTime":141.879,"endTime":146.879,"body":"that you happen to be one of the two"},{"startTime":144.36,"endTime":149.44,"body":"poster Prize winners so congratulations"},{"startTime":146.879,"endTime":151.44,"body":"thank you so what was that like yeah"},{"startTime":149.44,"endTime":155.16,"body":"that was a lot of fun I was presenting"},{"startTime":151.44,"endTime":157.519,"body":"on some re recent studies that I did on"},{"startTime":155.16,"endTime":160.04,"body":"uh chimpanzees sharing a touch panel and"},{"startTime":157.519,"endTime":161.8,"body":"some new research in that area so I was"},{"startTime":160.04,"endTime":163.159,"body":"happy that people liked it yeah I mean"},{"startTime":161.8,"endTime":164.84,"body":"it was a great opportunity for you I"},{"startTime":163.159,"endTime":166.72,"body":"mean you have a lot of very notable"},{"startTime":164.84,"endTime":168.48,"body":"scientists here in your relevant to your"},{"startTime":166.72,"endTime":170.519,"body":"field who were able to see your work"},{"startTime":168.48,"endTime":172.92,"body":"which got showcased MH yeah a lot of"},{"startTime":170.519,"endTime":175.84,"body":"chimpy researchers were there and so in"},{"startTime":172.92,"endTime":177.92,"body":"addition to that we were able to get"},{"startTime":175.84,"endTime":180.12,"body":"some interviews done so we were able to"},{"startTime":177.92,"endTime":182.4,"body":"sit down with five researchers mhm and"},{"startTime":180.12,"endTime":186.92,"body":"I'll just list them so we have Dr France"},{"startTime":182.4,"endTime":189.68,"body":"dewal MH Dr Joseph call and Dr William"},{"startTime":186.92,"endTime":192.08,"body":"mcru and Dr Dora birau and finally Dr"},{"startTime":189.68,"endTime":195.239,"body":"Cricket SS and we'll be presenting these"},{"startTime":192.08,"endTime":197.64,"body":"interviews in the next five uh podcasts"},{"startTime":195.239,"endTime":199.599,"body":"yep starting with Dr France dwall right"},{"startTime":197.64,"endTime":201.56,"body":"so Andrew give us some background on Dr"},{"startTime":199.599,"endTime":202.959,"body":"France dwall okay so Dr dwall is another"},{"startTime":201.56,"endTime":204.84,"body":"person for whom we don't need to spend"},{"startTime":202.959,"endTime":207.0,"body":"too much time with an introduction he is"},{"startTime":204.84,"endTime":208.799,"body":"the CH Candler professor of primate"},{"startTime":207.0,"endTime":210.68,"body":"Behavior at emmer University in the"},{"startTime":208.799,"endTime":212.64,"body":"department of psychology and he's also"},{"startTime":210.68,"endTime":215.0,"body":"the director of the living Links at the"},{"startTime":212.64,"endTime":217.2,"body":"yeres National Primate Research Center"},{"startTime":215.0,"endTime":219.28,"body":"and many of you may know that in 2007 he"},{"startTime":217.2,"endTime":221.84,"body":"was also featured by time as one of the"},{"startTime":219.28,"endTime":223.68,"body":"world's 100 most influential people now"},{"startTime":221.84,"endTime":225.76,"body":"within primatological circles he's"},{"startTime":223.68,"endTime":227.599,"body":"probably best known for his work in the"},{"startTime":225.76,"endTime":229.599,"body":"development of the field of primate"},{"startTime":227.599,"endTime":232.12,"body":"pro-sociality which extends far beyond"},{"startTime":229.599,"endTime":234.68,"body":"primates and other mammals as well and"},{"startTime":232.12,"endTime":236.959,"body":"strongly focusing within the area of"},{"startTime":234.68,"endTime":239.079,"body":"empathy now he's also a very good"},{"startTime":236.959,"endTime":240.879,"body":"spokesperson for science a good bridge"},{"startTime":239.079,"endTime":242.879,"body":"between scientists in the public and"},{"startTime":240.879,"endTime":244.2,"body":"he's written many popular books back in"},{"startTime":242.879,"endTime":246.28,"body":"the earlier days some of the most"},{"startTime":244.2,"endTime":248.68,"body":"influential being chimpanzee politics"},{"startTime":246.28,"endTime":250.76,"body":"and uh PR peacemaking among primates but"},{"startTime":248.68,"endTime":252.959,"body":"he's also written extensively about the"},{"startTime":250.76,"endTime":254.239,"body":"development of Japanese primatology"},{"startTime":252.959,"endTime":258.239,"body":"right and that's especially interesting"},{"startTime":254.239,"endTime":260.16,"body":"for us because he actually had a"},{"startTime":258.239,"endTime":262.84,"body":"fellowship at Kido University for three"},{"startTime":260.16,"endTime":265.24,"body":"months um and also he's just had a long"},{"startTime":262.84,"endTime":267.52,"body":"history of interaction with Japanese"},{"startTime":265.24,"endTime":269.919,"body":"primatologists so he has an interesting"},{"startTime":267.52,"endTime":271.84,"body":"view on on how Japanese primatologist"},{"startTime":269.919,"endTime":274.12,"body":"relates to the rest of the field and"},{"startTime":271.84,"endTime":276.639,"body":"he's written about it a lot okay so here"},{"startTime":274.12,"endTime":278.68,"body":"he is talking about Japanese primatology"},{"startTime":276.639,"endTime":280.88,"body":"I've always felt that the the Japanese"},{"startTime":278.68,"endTime":284.479,"body":"primatology was underestimated in the"},{"startTime":280.88,"endTime":286.84,"body":"west MH uh I felt that that way since I"},{"startTime":284.479,"endTime":288.88,"body":"was a student basically because of"},{"startTime":286.84,"endTime":291.24,"body":"course the naming of individuals started"},{"startTime":288.88,"endTime":293.44,"body":"with imanishi and the following of"},{"startTime":291.24,"endTime":296.6,"body":"lineages and matter lines started with"},{"startTime":293.44,"endTime":299.44,"body":"him the word culture in primatology"},{"startTime":296.6,"endTime":302.16,"body":"started with Iman and so I always felt"},{"startTime":299.44,"endTime":304.88,"body":"that Japanese Prim mythology was under"},{"startTime":302.16,"endTime":306.72,"body":"represented and and maybe I felt some"},{"startTime":304.88,"endTime":308.88,"body":"kinship because I'm I'm not a native"},{"startTime":306.72,"endTime":310.56,"body":"English speaker and and and even though"},{"startTime":308.88,"endTime":313.24,"body":"my language is much closer to English"},{"startTime":310.56,"endTime":316.479,"body":"than let's say the Japanese language I I"},{"startTime":313.24,"endTime":318.36,"body":"can see how native English speakers sort"},{"startTime":316.479,"endTime":320.08,"body":"of dominate the world because everyone"},{"startTime":318.36,"endTime":322.24,"body":"needs to talk their language and it's"},{"startTime":320.08,"endTime":324.039,"body":"easy to dominate the world if if others"},{"startTime":322.24,"endTime":326.479,"body":"are sort of struggling to keep up with"},{"startTime":324.039,"endTime":328.44,"body":"your language mhm and so I always felt"},{"startTime":326.479,"endTime":330.639,"body":"some sympathy for the Japanese position"},{"startTime":328.44,"endTime":332.919,"body":"in that regard m and then later of"},{"startTime":330.639,"endTime":335.72,"body":"course I I started visiting Japan and"},{"startTime":332.919,"endTime":337.44,"body":"knowing Japanese and one time I stayed"},{"startTime":335.72,"endTime":340.28,"body":"even three months in"},{"startTime":337.44,"endTime":343.199,"body":"Kyoto and so and after that I wrote my"},{"startTime":340.28,"endTime":345.199,"body":"book um the AP and the sushi Master"},{"startTime":343.199,"endTime":347.28,"body":"which which was on that topic basically"},{"startTime":345.199,"endTime":348.96,"body":"of how the culture topic had come about"},{"startTime":347.28,"endTime":351.96,"body":"and how influential the Japanese had"},{"startTime":348.96,"endTime":353.479,"body":"been in that so I forget the uh the"},{"startTime":351.96,"endTime":355.12,"body":"researcher who made the comments but"},{"startTime":353.479,"endTime":357.68,"body":"there was quite a scating paper about"},{"startTime":355.12,"endTime":360.919,"body":"imi's work it came out I don't is it the"},{"startTime":357.68,"endTime":362.96,"body":"70s or 80s and um based on the ideas"},{"startTime":360.919,"endTime":365.8,"body":"that he presented in his view of nature"},{"startTime":362.96,"endTime":367.599,"body":"was the Japanese view of nature oh yeah"},{"startTime":365.8,"endTime":369.96,"body":"forgetting who who that was that was an"},{"startTime":367.599,"endTime":372.96,"body":"Englishman who visited here that's right"},{"startTime":369.96,"endTime":375.319,"body":"halad wasn't that the name and yeah he"},{"startTime":372.96,"endTime":377.16,"body":"had a very negative paper on imanishi he"},{"startTime":375.319,"endTime":380.16,"body":"had even visited imanishi and talked"},{"startTime":377.16,"endTime":382.919,"body":"with him but after that he and he had"},{"startTime":380.16,"endTime":385.12,"body":"given him a bottle of whiskey I believe"},{"startTime":382.919,"endTime":386.8,"body":"but after that he was still extremely"},{"startTime":385.12,"endTime":390.68,"body":"negative on IM manishi that he was a"},{"startTime":386.8,"endTime":392.84,"body":"fool and and uh yeah and and of course"},{"startTime":390.68,"endTime":397.039,"body":"later in the early '90s there was a"},{"startTime":392.84,"endTime":399.199,"body":"paper by uh Ben galef on the koshima"},{"startTime":397.039,"endTime":401.56,"body":"experiment which was also extremely"},{"startTime":399.199,"endTime":403.72,"body":"negative and how there was completely"},{"startTime":401.56,"endTime":406.199,"body":"misrepresented even though he never made"},{"startTime":403.72,"endTime":407.96,"body":"the effort to talk with people who had"},{"startTime":406.199,"endTime":409.759,"body":"firsthand knowledge and never made the"},{"startTime":407.96,"endTime":411.0,"body":"effort to go to kushima to see how the"},{"startTime":409.759,"endTime":414.039,"body":"situation"},{"startTime":411.0,"endTime":417.16,"body":"looked and made some outrageous claims"},{"startTime":414.039,"endTime":420.479,"body":"about what had been reported for example"},{"startTime":417.16,"endTime":422.56,"body":"uh he he he claimed that obviously Miss"},{"startTime":420.479,"endTime":425.08,"body":"Meo who who had been handing out"},{"startTime":422.56,"endTime":427.24,"body":"potatoes there had been selectively"},{"startTime":425.08,"endTime":428.919,"body":"rewarding young monkeys who would wash"},{"startTime":427.24,"endTime":431.8,"body":"the potatoes and that's how she got the"},{"startTime":428.919,"endTime":434.039,"body":"behavior introduced in the group and and"},{"startTime":431.8,"endTime":436.0,"body":"when I talked with misso because I did"},{"startTime":434.039,"endTime":438.16,"body":"with an interpreter she doesn't speak"},{"startTime":436.0,"endTime":440.12,"body":"English when I talked with her she sort"},{"startTime":438.16,"endTime":442.84,"body":"of laughed at that idea she said you"},{"startTime":440.12,"endTime":444.44,"body":"first need to feed the adult males"},{"startTime":442.84,"endTime":446.879,"body":"because you cannot feed any juveniles"},{"startTime":444.44,"endTime":448.56,"body":"before you have fed the adult males"},{"startTime":446.879,"endTime":450.24,"body":"because of course they will beat up the"},{"startTime":448.56,"endTime":451.879,"body":"juveniles otherwise"},{"startTime":450.24,"endTime":453.08,"body":"and so she s of was a silly idea to"},{"startTime":451.879,"endTime":456.8,"body":"think that you could start with the"},{"startTime":453.08,"endTime":459.36,"body":"juveniles MH so so that's how poorly G's"},{"startTime":456.8,"endTime":463.199,"body":"paper was research but he was so opposed"},{"startTime":459.36,"endTime":464.68,"body":"to the idea of um culture in animals and"},{"startTime":463.199,"endTime":467.72,"body":"for the rest of his life I believe he"},{"startTime":464.68,"endTime":469.44,"body":"has remained opposed to that yeah mhm"},{"startTime":467.72,"endTime":471.44,"body":"it's really interesting and then there's"},{"startTime":469.44,"endTime":475.8,"body":"also another um thing that comes to my"},{"startTime":471.44,"endTime":480.039,"body":"mind which is I think it was um when in"},{"startTime":475.8,"endTime":482.8,"body":"chib politics you talk about um arnam in"},{"startTime":480.039,"endTime":485.84,"body":"sugiyama Sensei could recognize very"},{"startTime":482.8,"endTime":488.0,"body":"quickly uhhuh the identities of the"},{"startTime":485.84,"endTime":489.759,"body":"chimpanzees yeah so that seems like"},{"startTime":488.0,"endTime":492.8,"body":"another connection to the Japanese"},{"startTime":489.759,"endTime":497.039,"body":"researcher coming um yeah suyama visited"},{"startTime":492.8,"endTime":499.28,"body":"me um he he visited Yan fov my professor"},{"startTime":497.039,"endTime":501.599,"body":"and uh he visited me in arnam when I was"},{"startTime":499.28,"endTime":503.479,"body":"still a student with long hair and"},{"startTime":501.599,"endTime":507.039,"body":"everything you know was quite different"},{"startTime":503.479,"endTime":508.479,"body":"from now MH and uh yeah it was"},{"startTime":507.039,"endTime":511.319,"body":"interesting to see that because the"},{"startTime":508.479,"endTime":514.919,"body":"chimps they uh they don't like strangers"},{"startTime":511.319,"endTime":517.0,"body":"MH and they throw stuff at them and and"},{"startTime":514.919,"endTime":519.44,"body":"so they were a bit hostile to to me"},{"startTime":517.0,"endTime":521.32,"body":"bringing a new person there but in in in"},{"startTime":519.44,"endTime":524.36,"body":"addition I remember that sugama learned"},{"startTime":521.32,"endTime":525.8,"body":"all the chimps in one day and I found it"},{"startTime":524.36,"endTime":528.48,"body":"at the time"},{"startTime":525.8,"endTime":530.36,"body":"remarkable uh but of course uh since"},{"startTime":528.48,"endTime":532.88,"body":"then field I've noticed that field work"},{"startTime":530.36,"endTime":535.0,"body":"is actually very good at this right it's"},{"startTime":532.88,"endTime":537.16,"body":"maybe because field workers they they"},{"startTime":535.0,"endTime":539.48,"body":"they don't always get to see the whole"},{"startTime":537.16,"endTime":541.44,"body":"animal uh and so they're very used to"},{"startTime":539.48,"endTime":544.8,"body":"picking up on small details more than"},{"startTime":541.44,"endTime":547.48,"body":"other people mhm yeah from from personal"},{"startTime":544.8,"endTime":549.56,"body":"experience I find uh preestablished"},{"startTime":547.48,"endTime":551.12,"body":"markting systems to be much less"},{"startTime":549.56,"endTime":552.959,"body":"effective than just spending a little"},{"startTime":551.12,"endTime":554.519,"body":"bit of time and picking up on those"},{"startTime":552.959,"endTime":556.64,"body":"exactly those sometimes intangible"},{"startTime":554.519,"endTime":559.72,"body":"things so so another story on Japanese"},{"startTime":556.64,"endTime":564.72,"body":"primatology that that imanishi in"},{"startTime":559.72,"endTime":566.64,"body":"1968 he tour to us with Italian belief"},{"startTime":564.72,"endTime":568.32,"body":"and to explain about his work to to"},{"startTime":566.64,"endTime":570.0,"body":"American researchers and and people"},{"startTime":568.32,"endTime":572.079,"body":"laughed at him people laughed at the"},{"startTime":570.0,"endTime":574.24,"body":"idea that you he claimed that he could"},{"startTime":572.079,"endTime":577.079,"body":"recognize 100 monkeys well that was"},{"startTime":574.24,"endTime":578.88,"body":"totally impossible uh everyone knew that"},{"startTime":577.079,"endTime":581.48,"body":"that was impossible and so he must have"},{"startTime":578.88,"endTime":583.279,"body":"been making up stories these were"},{"startTime":581.48,"endTime":585.12,"body":"probably the people who laughed at him"},{"startTime":583.279,"endTime":586.2,"body":"uh were probably rat researchers or"},{"startTime":585.12,"endTime":588.959,"body":"pigeon"},{"startTime":586.2,"endTime":591.8,"body":"researchers uh because Carpenter Ray"},{"startTime":588.959,"endTime":594.36,"body":"Carpenter the Pioneer uh primatologist"},{"startTime":591.8,"endTime":596.56,"body":"in the US he he believed the whole story"},{"startTime":594.36,"endTime":599.959,"body":"he had tried it himself obviously and he"},{"startTime":596.56,"endTime":601.44,"body":"became a big fan of imun mhm mhm that's"},{"startTime":599.959,"endTime":604.519,"body":"really"},{"startTime":601.44,"endTime":606.48,"body":"interesting so going back to arnam so"},{"startTime":604.519,"endTime":609.279,"body":"that was the beginning of your career"},{"startTime":606.48,"endTime":610.88,"body":"and you noticed obviously a lot of"},{"startTime":609.279,"endTime":612.839,"body":"interesting you found a lot of"},{"startTime":610.88,"endTime":614.76,"body":"interesting behavior in chienes at the"},{"startTime":612.839,"endTime":616.72,"body":"arnam zoo and I'm wondering what's your"},{"startTime":614.76,"endTime":619.76,"body":"kind of General view of chimp's the"},{"startTime":616.72,"endTime":622.16,"body":"evolution of that since then uhhuh has"},{"startTime":619.76,"endTime":623.76,"body":"it changed much or the general themes"},{"startTime":622.16,"endTime":625.64,"body":"that you that you noticed them have"},{"startTime":623.76,"endTime":627.12,"body":"changed because when I started in arnam"},{"startTime":625.64,"endTime":629.32,"body":"the goal was to study aggressive"},{"startTime":627.12,"endTime":630.8,"body":"behavior mhm now the first year I was"},{"startTime":629.32,"endTime":633.56,"body":"was there there was almost no aggressive"},{"startTime":630.8,"endTime":635.12,"body":"behavior so I started to do other things"},{"startTime":633.56,"endTime":637.279,"body":"like paying attention to their"},{"startTime":635.12,"endTime":639.32,"body":"personalities and looking at the details"},{"startTime":637.279,"endTime":642.16,"body":"of mod infant interactions and stuff"},{"startTime":639.32,"endTime":644.44,"body":"like that so I got very used to"},{"startTime":642.16,"endTime":646.079,"body":"chimpanzees in that one year which was"},{"startTime":644.44,"endTime":647.32,"body":"very good because when the males then"},{"startTime":646.079,"endTime":649.839,"body":"started to"},{"startTime":647.32,"endTime":651.48,"body":"politic and and and to have power"},{"startTime":649.839,"endTime":652.92,"body":"struggles I was very well prepared"},{"startTime":651.48,"endTime":655.92,"body":"because I knew all the individuals very"},{"startTime":652.92,"endTime":660.12,"body":"well and I know Aller Behavior very well"},{"startTime":655.92,"endTime":662.16,"body":"and uh I I I kept a very detailed diary"},{"startTime":660.12,"endTime":664.32,"body":"in addition to all the the data that I"},{"startTime":662.16,"endTime":666.48,"body":"collected and and the diary then became"},{"startTime":664.32,"endTime":670.76,"body":"the basis for chimpan"},{"startTime":666.48,"endTime":672.8,"body":"politics and uh the theme initially was"},{"startTime":670.76,"endTime":675.2,"body":"aggressive behavior but very soon I got"},{"startTime":672.8,"endTime":678.2,"body":"interested in the reconciliations that"},{"startTime":675.2,"endTime":680.639,"body":"happened after aggressive behavior and"},{"startTime":678.2,"endTime":683.32,"body":"uh that became sort of my main theme"},{"startTime":680.639,"endTime":685.72,"body":"because if I presented to people on"},{"startTime":683.32,"endTime":687.2,"body":"reconciliation behavior in chimpances"},{"startTime":685.72,"endTime":689.68,"body":"there was always there was this element"},{"startTime":687.2,"endTime":692.279,"body":"of surprise like like no no one had"},{"startTime":689.68,"endTime":694.279,"body":"expected anything like it uh at that"},{"startTime":692.279,"endTime":695.88,"body":"time uh all animal behavior was"},{"startTime":694.279,"endTime":697.24,"body":"explained in terms of competition"},{"startTime":695.88,"endTime":699.519,"body":"dominance and"},{"startTime":697.24,"endTime":701.68,"body":"competition uh and everyone was talking"},{"startTime":699.519,"endTime":704.76,"body":"about how you become the most successful"},{"startTime":701.68,"endTime":706.24,"body":"baboon so to speak um but no one was"},{"startTime":704.76,"endTime":709.12,"body":"talking about how how do you keep a"},{"startTime":706.24,"endTime":711.959,"body":"group together and and when I presented"},{"startTime":709.12,"endTime":713.16,"body":"reconciliation Behavior Uh it was not"},{"startTime":711.959,"endTime":714.959,"body":"that people were theoretically"},{"startTime":713.16,"endTime":716.92,"body":"interested in because they they had no"},{"startTime":714.959,"endTime":719.32,"body":"theories that related to it they didn't"},{"startTime":716.92,"endTime":721.36,"body":"know what to do with the data and I saw"},{"startTime":719.32,"endTime":723.68,"body":"that was very intriguing and and so when"},{"startTime":721.36,"endTime":726.2,"body":"I went to the United States in"},{"startTime":723.68,"endTime":728.76,"body":"81 I decided that was going to be my"},{"startTime":726.2,"endTime":730.88,"body":"theme conflict resolution in instead of"},{"startTime":728.76,"endTime":732.32,"body":"focusing on aggression I was going to"},{"startTime":730.88,"endTime":735.36,"body":"focus on conflict"},{"startTime":732.32,"endTime":738.0,"body":"resolution and I did that initially with"},{"startTime":735.36,"endTime":739.76,"body":"Maxs and then I did a study on bonobas"},{"startTime":738.0,"endTime":741.6,"body":"at the San Diego Zoo and then I did a"},{"startTime":739.76,"endTime":744.32,"body":"food sharing study on chimpanzees at"},{"startTime":741.6,"endTime":745.959,"body":"yeres all of that I did in the first 10"},{"startTime":744.32,"endTime":748.48,"body":"years when I was still in"},{"startTime":745.959,"endTime":749.839,"body":"Wisconsin and uh then then I started to"},{"startTime":748.48,"endTime":751.88,"body":"look for a position where I could be a"},{"startTime":749.839,"endTime":755.12,"body":"bit closer to chimpan because they had"},{"startTime":751.88,"endTime":757.199,"body":"no chimps in in Wisconsin mhm and and"},{"startTime":755.12,"endTime":760.16,"body":"and that remained the theme of my career"},{"startTime":757.199,"endTime":761.92,"body":"it's more more focusing instead of"},{"startTime":760.16,"endTime":764.24,"body":"conflict and competition and who wins"},{"startTime":761.92,"endTime":767.399,"body":"and who loses more focusing on inte"},{"startTime":764.24,"endTime":769.839,"body":"social integration empathy cooperation"},{"startTime":767.399,"endTime":771.959,"body":"reciprocity that kind of issues so you"},{"startTime":769.839,"endTime":774.32,"body":"kind of have these two lines of research"},{"startTime":771.959,"endTime":777.04,"body":"one is kind of the observation of the"},{"startTime":774.32,"endTime":779.48,"body":"chienes as they fight and reconcile and"},{"startTime":777.04,"endTime":782.199,"body":"then the other kind of more recent um"},{"startTime":779.48,"endTime":784.04,"body":"has been experiments so I'm wondering"},{"startTime":782.199,"endTime":785.76,"body":"what was the impetus for you to start"},{"startTime":784.04,"endTime":788.56,"body":"thinking about doing"},{"startTime":785.76,"endTime":789.56,"body":"experiments yeah so when I arnm was"},{"startTime":788.56,"endTime":791.6,"body":"entirely"},{"startTime":789.56,"endTime":794.68,"body":"observational we didn't I don't think we"},{"startTime":791.6,"endTime":796.92,"body":"even tried an experiment at the time and"},{"startTime":794.68,"endTime":799.72,"body":"then uh oh yeah except for the stuffed"},{"startTime":796.92,"endTime":802.12,"body":"lion that we did one time how did that"},{"startTime":799.72,"endTime":802.959,"body":"go well The Chimps threw a lot of stuff"},{"startTime":802.12,"endTime":805.279,"body":"at the"},{"startTime":802.959,"endTime":808.639,"body":"lion and then they lost interest in the"},{"startTime":805.279,"endTime":810.44,"body":"stuffed Ling so apart from that then I"},{"startTime":808.639,"endTime":812.72,"body":"moved to Wisconsin and I was still"},{"startTime":810.44,"endTime":815.279,"body":"largely observational I worked on"},{"startTime":812.72,"endTime":817.68,"body":"maacs and also the Boba study was"},{"startTime":815.279,"endTime":820.72,"body":"largely like that and then I got"},{"startTime":817.68,"endTime":822.24,"body":"interested in manipulating things and my"},{"startTime":820.72,"endTime":824.36,"body":"first manipulation was probably the food"},{"startTime":822.24,"endTime":826.8,"body":"sharing study at jerks that I did with"},{"startTime":824.36,"endTime":829.959,"body":"chanes and I also did one with monkeys"},{"startTime":826.8,"endTime":832.399,"body":"where I housed uh different species of"},{"startTime":829.959,"endTime":834.04,"body":"maak Reeses and stumptail monkeys"},{"startTime":832.399,"endTime":836.0,"body":"together to see if how they would"},{"startTime":834.04,"endTime":836.88,"body":"influence each other's Behavior I did"},{"startTime":836.0,"endTime":840.639,"body":"that in"},{"startTime":836.88,"endTime":841.92,"body":"Wisconsin so when I moved from Wisconsin"},{"startTime":840.639,"endTime":844.56,"body":"to"},{"startTime":841.92,"endTime":847.92,"body":"yeres which is in"},{"startTime":844.56,"endTime":848.8,"body":"91 I decided I wanted to set up a lab to"},{"startTime":847.92,"endTime":850.92,"body":"do"},{"startTime":848.8,"endTime":853.36,"body":"experiments and so I took my capuchin"},{"startTime":850.92,"endTime":855.6,"body":"monkeys which I had already with me and"},{"startTime":853.36,"endTime":858.519,"body":"I modeled my lab on Hans kummer's lab"},{"startTime":855.6,"endTime":861.36,"body":"Hans kummer had a lab in Switzerland"},{"startTime":858.519,"endTime":864.639,"body":"with long T Macs which are now all of a"},{"startTime":861.36,"endTime":867.839,"body":"sudden the rage you know but were not so"},{"startTime":864.639,"endTime":870.279,"body":"popular at the time and Hans had decided"},{"startTime":867.839,"endTime":872.04,"body":"that you should not keep monkeys in sort"},{"startTime":870.279,"endTime":873.88,"body":"of single cages and then take them out"},{"startTime":872.04,"endTime":876.72,"body":"and do a test with them you need to to"},{"startTime":873.88,"endTime":878.16,"body":"house these monkeys socially in a group"},{"startTime":876.72,"endTime":880.56,"body":"and then you can ask them social"},{"startTime":878.16,"endTime":882.44,"body":"questions like do you recognize who"},{"startTime":880.56,"endTime":885.36,"body":"which female is related to which"},{"startTime":882.44,"endTime":887.0,"body":"Offspring and so on and so that seemed"},{"startTime":885.36,"endTime":888.759,"body":"to make a lot of sense for me and also"},{"startTime":887.0,"endTime":890.24,"body":"since I'm very much opposed to single"},{"startTime":888.759,"endTime":894.079,"body":"single housed"},{"startTime":890.24,"endTime":895.8,"body":"animals uh so I I insisted at yerys that"},{"startTime":894.079,"endTime":898.04,"body":"I would get group housing for the"},{"startTime":895.8,"endTime":900.399,"body":"monkeys indoor outdoor group housing for"},{"startTime":898.04,"endTime":902.36,"body":"these kuchin monkeys"},{"startTime":900.399,"endTime":904.12,"body":"and and set up a lab in which I could"},{"startTime":902.36,"endTime":905.72,"body":"run experiments and so the Capuchin"},{"startTime":904.12,"endTime":908.72,"body":"Colony became the first place where I"},{"startTime":905.72,"endTime":911.0,"body":"started to do experiments then miss"},{"startTime":908.72,"endTime":913.839,"body":"chimps also at yoris I did in the"},{"startTime":911.0,"endTime":915.88,"body":"beginning mostly observational stuff but"},{"startTime":913.839,"endTime":917.399,"body":"since the Capuchin studies were going so"},{"startTime":915.88,"endTime":919.6,"body":"well and were so"},{"startTime":917.399,"endTime":921.88,"body":"interesting almost all my students they"},{"startTime":919.6,"endTime":923.959,"body":"wanted them to work with with um"},{"startTime":921.88,"endTime":925.68,"body":"chimpunes and and do similar sort of"},{"startTime":923.959,"endTime":927.92,"body":"experiments and so we mve to more"},{"startTime":925.68,"endTime":931.0,"body":"experimental things with chimps also and"},{"startTime":927.92,"endTime":934.279,"body":"as you know working here with gims it's"},{"startTime":931.0,"endTime":937.16,"body":"not so easy mhm they they're sometimes"},{"startTime":934.279,"endTime":938.839,"body":"um not cooperative and sometimes they"},{"startTime":937.16,"endTime":941.199,"body":"mess up and sometimes they do it on"},{"startTime":938.839,"endTime":944.959,"body":"purpose and so gims are difficult"},{"startTime":941.199,"endTime":947.24,"body":"animals to work with um but uh it's a"},{"startTime":944.959,"endTime":950.04,"body":"real challenge but we started doing that"},{"startTime":947.24,"endTime":951.6,"body":"so just an extension from that because"},{"startTime":950.04,"endTime":954.04,"body":"of the difficulties you have working"},{"startTime":951.6,"endTime":955.6,"body":"with for example chimpan you've often"},{"startTime":954.04,"endTime":957.12,"body":"made the point that perhaps those"},{"startTime":955.6,"endTime":959.24,"body":"difficulties actually affect the"},{"startTime":957.12,"endTime":961.48,"body":"interpretation of studies and the result"},{"startTime":959.24,"endTime":964.44,"body":"that are found in chimpan studies that"},{"startTime":961.48,"endTime":967.0,"body":"may be not necessarily reflective of of"},{"startTime":964.44,"endTime":968.8,"body":"reality you have to be very careful with"},{"startTime":967.0,"endTime":971.24,"body":"negative results and I think people have"},{"startTime":968.8,"endTime":973.8,"body":"been a bit overly eager to interpret"},{"startTime":971.24,"endTime":975.639,"body":"negative results so then they they test"},{"startTime":973.8,"endTime":978.839,"body":"let's say children the same way that"},{"startTime":975.639,"endTime":982.079,"body":"they test chanes the children do well on"},{"startTime":978.839,"endTime":983.759,"body":"the task the chanes do poorly now"},{"startTime":982.079,"endTime":987.319,"body":"there's a there's a host of things that"},{"startTime":983.759,"endTime":989.8,"body":"can explain that MH for example if if"},{"startTime":987.319,"endTime":991.399,"body":"the test is administered by a human it"},{"startTime":989.8,"endTime":993.16,"body":"could be that the children relate better"},{"startTime":991.399,"endTime":995.0,"body":"to a human than chimpances and that's"},{"startTime":993.16,"endTime":997.199,"body":"probably an explanation for a lot of the"},{"startTime":995.0,"endTime":998.959,"body":"differences that have been found but"},{"startTime":997.199,"endTime":1000.88,"body":"it's also that chimps react differently"},{"startTime":998.959,"endTime":1002.24,"body":"to things they focus on well there's"},{"startTime":1000.88,"endTime":1004.199,"body":"some research now the eye tracking"},{"startTime":1002.24,"endTime":1006.199,"body":"research that you do here that show they"},{"startTime":1004.199,"endTime":1008.8,"body":"look differently at certain"},{"startTime":1006.199,"endTime":1011.759,"body":"situations and so negative results are"},{"startTime":1008.8,"endTime":1013.519,"body":"very hard to interpret and and actually"},{"startTime":1011.759,"endTime":1015.519,"body":"the the interpretation of Last Resort"},{"startTime":1013.519,"endTime":1017.56,"body":"should be that there's a a cognitive"},{"startTime":1015.519,"endTime":1020.319,"body":"difference and and first you need to"},{"startTime":1017.56,"endTime":1023.68,"body":"rule out a whole bunch of methodological"},{"startTime":1020.319,"endTime":1025.559,"body":"issues and so um I've never worked much"},{"startTime":1023.68,"endTime":1028.16,"body":"with negative results if we get negative"},{"startTime":1025.559,"endTime":1030.4,"body":"results which of course happens we try"},{"startTime":1028.16,"endTime":1032.0,"body":"to figure out or or we dro the whole"},{"startTime":1030.4,"endTime":1033.72,"body":"case because I don't know what to do"},{"startTime":1032.0,"endTime":1037.4,"body":"with negative results and some people"},{"startTime":1033.72,"endTime":1039.319,"body":"have been overly eager to interpret them"},{"startTime":1037.4,"endTime":1041.039,"body":"so with chimp yes there's a lot of meth"},{"startTime":1039.319,"endTime":1043.48,"body":"methodological issues and so for example"},{"startTime":1041.039,"endTime":1045.52,"body":"with the pro-social test that we did"},{"startTime":1043.48,"endTime":1047.76,"body":"where you have two chimpan who can one"},{"startTime":1045.52,"endTime":1049.32,"body":"chimpan can select tokens of a different"},{"startTime":1047.76,"endTime":1052.559,"body":"color"},{"startTime":1049.32,"endTime":1055.44,"body":"one color feeds himself and a partner"},{"startTime":1052.559,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"and the other color only feeds himself"},{"startTime":1055.44,"endTime":1059.16,"body":"um they prefer they start to prefer what"},{"startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1062.24,"body":"we call the pro-social token for"},{"startTime":1059.16,"endTime":1064.919,"body":"exchange so that they start to give some"},{"startTime":1062.24,"endTime":1066.36,"body":"food to their partner uh that that is"},{"startTime":1064.919,"endTime":1068.76,"body":"actually an experiment that has been"},{"startTime":1066.36,"endTime":1070.2,"body":"tried before uh with different"},{"startTime":1068.76,"endTime":1072.36,"body":"conditions with a sort of apparatus"},{"startTime":1070.2,"endTime":1074.52,"body":"where they had to pull levers and The"},{"startTime":1072.36,"endTime":1075.919,"body":"Chimps never performed well on that and"},{"startTime":1074.52,"endTime":1077.48,"body":"the conclusion at the time was"},{"startTime":1075.919,"endTime":1079.039,"body":"chimpances don't have pro-social"},{"startTime":1077.48,"endTime":1081.76,"body":"Tendencies and and that's such an"},{"startTime":1079.039,"endTime":1083.12,"body":"overreach of conclusion in my opinion"},{"startTime":1081.76,"endTime":1086.0,"body":"what they should have said is we have"},{"startTime":1083.12,"endTime":1088.52,"body":"tried this and it didn't give any result"},{"startTime":1086.0,"endTime":1090.76,"body":"it only gave random results and here are"},{"startTime":1088.52,"endTime":1093.36,"body":"the possible explanations for that one"},{"startTime":1090.76,"endTime":1095.0,"body":"of which could be a side bias you all"},{"startTime":1093.36,"endTime":1096.64,"body":"know if you work with STS on touch"},{"startTime":1095.0,"endTime":1099.52,"body":"screens that they have side biases they"},{"startTime":1096.64,"endTime":1101.2,"body":"always pull right or they pull left"},{"startTime":1099.52,"endTime":1104.799,"body":"which is such an obvious explanation for"},{"startTime":1101.2,"endTime":1106.52,"body":"A lot of these results so so so you need"},{"startTime":1104.799,"endTime":1108.48,"body":"to rule all of that out before you get"},{"startTime":1106.52,"endTime":1110.4,"body":"to these big conclusions of a cognitive"},{"startTime":1108.48,"endTime":1112.0,"body":"difference yeah so we've had an issue"},{"startTime":1110.4,"endTime":1115.44,"body":"come up with our guests before in the"},{"startTime":1112.0,"endTime":1118.4,"body":"prim a cast where a lot of people think"},{"startTime":1115.44,"endTime":1120.12,"body":"that there's a trend to say in titles of"},{"startTime":1118.4,"endTime":1122.12,"body":"papers like chimpanzees do this or"},{"startTime":1120.12,"endTime":1123.679,"body":"chimpanzees do that whereas what they're"},{"startTime":1122.12,"endTime":1126.0,"body":"really talking about is a specific group"},{"startTime":1123.679,"endTime":1128.2,"body":"of chimpanzees in a specific context"},{"startTime":1126.0,"endTime":1129.2,"body":"with a specific type of apparatus and it"},{"startTime":1128.2,"endTime":1131.08,"body":"sounds like that's kind of what you're"},{"startTime":1129.2,"endTime":1132.08,"body":"saying we should be careful about making"},{"startTime":1131.08,"endTime":1134.32,"body":"these broad"},{"startTime":1132.08,"endTime":1136.679,"body":"generalizations and and kind of lay out"},{"startTime":1134.32,"endTime":1139.159,"body":"the situation in more detail well that's"},{"startTime":1136.679,"endTime":1141.2,"body":"another issue is that that some chimps"},{"startTime":1139.159,"endTime":1144.24,"body":"also in captivity some chimps may be"},{"startTime":1141.2,"endTime":1145.76,"body":"different from others and so dependent"},{"startTime":1144.24,"endTime":1149.52,"body":"on how they were trained or what their"},{"startTime":1145.76,"endTime":1151.48,"body":"background is uh because um there are"},{"startTime":1149.52,"endTime":1153.039,"body":"chimps who are very human oriented and"},{"startTime":1151.48,"endTime":1154.799,"body":"there are chimps who what we call are"},{"startTime":1153.039,"endTime":1157.039,"body":"very chimpy is that they are more"},{"startTime":1154.799,"endTime":1158.799,"body":"focused on each other MH so the ones who"},{"startTime":1157.039,"endTime":1161.32,"body":"are very human oriented who pay"},{"startTime":1158.799,"endTime":1163.44,"body":"attention to what you do and want to"},{"startTime":1161.32,"endTime":1166.48,"body":"please you maybe or want to compete with"},{"startTime":1163.44,"endTime":1167.72,"body":"you or whatever the human orientation is"},{"startTime":1166.48,"endTime":1169.24,"body":"those CHS are going to respond"},{"startTime":1167.72,"endTime":1171.36,"body":"differently in these EXP"},{"startTime":1169.24,"endTime":1173.6,"body":"experiments and so I I believe that"},{"startTime":1171.36,"endTime":1176.08,"body":"there's also the possibility that some"},{"startTime":1173.6,"endTime":1177.76,"body":"chimps like maybe The Chimps at jys are"},{"startTime":1176.08,"endTime":1179.919,"body":"different from The Chimps at lipy and"},{"startTime":1177.76,"endTime":1182.679,"body":"are different from The Chimps at Kyoto"},{"startTime":1179.919,"endTime":1185.32,"body":"right it's possible right so it might be"},{"startTime":1182.679,"endTime":1187.679,"body":"nice to have some kind of more uh broad"},{"startTime":1185.32,"endTime":1188.919,"body":"studies that can look at the same task"},{"startTime":1187.679,"endTime":1191.52,"body":"in different locations might be"},{"startTime":1188.919,"endTime":1193.88,"body":"interesting I want to ask you about uh"},{"startTime":1191.52,"endTime":1196.159,"body":"other species so you have gotten into"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1197.6,"body":"elephant research and I'm wondering like"},{"startTime":1196.159,"endTime":1199.2,"body":"what was the what was the reason for"},{"startTime":1197.6,"endTime":1200.52,"body":"getting into that and how has that gone"},{"startTime":1199.2,"endTime":1202.039,"body":"for you well I'm very interested in"},{"startTime":1200.52,"endTime":1204.799,"body":"comparative"},{"startTime":1202.039,"endTime":1206.6,"body":"approaches a bit like what Jep call was"},{"startTime":1204.799,"endTime":1208.76,"body":"talking about in his talk and I think"},{"startTime":1206.6,"endTime":1211.039,"body":"that the comparative approach is so"},{"startTime":1208.76,"endTime":1213.08,"body":"powerful in itology I think and of"},{"startTime":1211.039,"endTime":1216.24,"body":"course usually we use it within a Genus"},{"startTime":1213.08,"endTime":1217.76,"body":"or within a group like like ma genus is"},{"startTime":1216.24,"endTime":1219.76,"body":"for example ideal for this because you"},{"startTime":1217.76,"endTime":1221.28,"body":"have 20 species and so the comparisons"},{"startTime":1219.76,"endTime":1224.44,"body":"between the ma genus are really"},{"startTime":1221.28,"endTime":1226.48,"body":"wonderful to very very uh eliminating I"},{"startTime":1224.44,"endTime":1228.12,"body":"think so I've always been in this"},{"startTime":1226.48,"endTime":1229.679,"body":"comparative approach and and I've never"},{"startTime":1228.12,"endTime":1231.36,"body":"worked EXP exclusively with chimps I've"},{"startTime":1229.679,"endTime":1234.6,"body":"also worked with bonobas with kuchin"},{"startTime":1231.36,"endTime":1236.84,"body":"monkeys with Macs very extensively with"},{"startTime":1234.6,"endTime":1240.28,"body":"Macs even though they're so totally"},{"startTime":1236.84,"endTime":1242.44,"body":"different from from the the Apes and so"},{"startTime":1240.28,"endTime":1244.44,"body":"when I got a student who Josh plotnik"},{"startTime":1242.44,"endTime":1247.08,"body":"who said that he he loved to work with"},{"startTime":1244.44,"endTime":1248.6,"body":"elephants I thought well that's great"},{"startTime":1247.08,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"the mirror test still needs to be done"},{"startTime":1248.6,"endTime":1253.2,"body":"on elephants uh because it had been done"},{"startTime":1251.48,"endTime":1254.679,"body":"and and there was a negative result but"},{"startTime":1253.2,"endTime":1258.2,"body":"I think that was easily explained that"},{"startTime":1254.679,"endTime":1259.919,"body":"negative result and so um since I was"},{"startTime":1258.2,"endTime":1261.679,"body":"interested at the time at empathy in"},{"startTime":1259.919,"endTime":1263.48,"body":"empathy and I believe that there's a"},{"startTime":1261.679,"endTime":1266.52,"body":"connection between mirror"},{"startTime":1263.48,"endTime":1268.64,"body":"self-recognition and perspective taking"},{"startTime":1266.52,"endTime":1269.84,"body":"uh I I wanted to know what elephants"},{"startTime":1268.64,"endTime":1271.559,"body":"would do because elephants have this"},{"startTime":1269.84,"endTime":1274.36,"body":"reputation of being highly altruistic"},{"startTime":1271.559,"endTime":1276.799,"body":"and empathic and so on and so that's how"},{"startTime":1274.36,"endTime":1279.4,"body":"we ended up doing a simple experiment"},{"startTime":1276.799,"endTime":1281.32,"body":"with Meers at the Bron zoo and since"},{"startTime":1279.4,"endTime":1283.0,"body":"then Josh has taken that whole operation"},{"startTime":1281.32,"endTime":1285.159,"body":"to Thailand and is doing a lot of"},{"startTime":1283.0,"endTime":1287.36,"body":"interesting things sort of replicating"},{"startTime":1285.159,"endTime":1289.44,"body":"many of the studies on Apes now trying"},{"startTime":1287.36,"endTime":1291.36,"body":"to replicate them on on elephant right"},{"startTime":1289.44,"endTime":1293.72,"body":"it's really exciting research yeah and"},{"startTime":1291.36,"endTime":1295.64,"body":"the Elephant is so understudied everyone"},{"startTime":1293.72,"endTime":1298.72,"body":"of course believes that they are very"},{"startTime":1295.64,"endTime":1301.279,"body":"smart that there there's no doubt uh"},{"startTime":1298.72,"endTime":1304.12,"body":"that they are very smart but no one has"},{"startTime":1301.279,"endTime":1307.159,"body":"really documented that in detail"},{"startTime":1304.12,"endTime":1309.0,"body":"mhm absolutely so you've been able to"},{"startTime":1307.159,"endTime":1310.64,"body":"provide probably over the last number of"},{"startTime":1309.0,"endTime":1312.919,"body":"years some fairly compelling evidence"},{"startTime":1310.64,"endTime":1314.84,"body":"for this idea and pro within Pro"},{"startTime":1312.919,"endTime":1316.36,"body":"sociality Tendencies towards empathy and"},{"startTime":1314.84,"endTime":1318.799,"body":"this kind of thing do you think you've"},{"startTime":1316.36,"endTime":1321.4,"body":"silenced the critics how much what's"},{"startTime":1318.799,"endTime":1324.6,"body":"going to take it is true that criticism"},{"startTime":1321.4,"endTime":1327.44,"body":"has subsided a lot so initially when I"},{"startTime":1324.6,"endTime":1330.72,"body":"would say that even chimpances that"},{"startTime":1327.44,"endTime":1333.48,"body":"chimpances have empathy uh people people"},{"startTime":1330.72,"endTime":1334.96,"body":"were very sort of uh objecting to that"},{"startTime":1333.48,"endTime":1337.2,"body":"kind of idea and I think it is because"},{"startTime":1334.96,"endTime":1339.96,"body":"they had a very high opinion about"},{"startTime":1337.2,"endTime":1342.559,"body":"empathy I believe that povel even R once"},{"startTime":1339.96,"endTime":1344.279,"body":"wrote a paper that chimpances have no"},{"startTime":1342.559,"endTime":1346.679,"body":"empathy what he meant is they have no"},{"startTime":1344.279,"endTime":1349.96,"body":"theory of mind and even that of course"},{"startTime":1346.679,"endTime":1352.159,"body":"is in under debate um but for me empathy"},{"startTime":1349.96,"endTime":1354.039,"body":"is not theory of mind that's that's"},{"startTime":1352.159,"endTime":1358.559,"body":"maybe an outgrowth of it and it is"},{"startTime":1354.039,"endTime":1361.279,"body":"related to it but um in in Psychology"},{"startTime":1358.559,"endTime":1363.159,"body":"there's a lot of resistance to it"},{"startTime":1361.279,"endTime":1365.64,"body":"whereas if you go to the average person"},{"startTime":1363.159,"endTime":1366.4,"body":"in the street and you say does your dog"},{"startTime":1365.64,"endTime":1368.84,"body":"have"},{"startTime":1366.4,"endTime":1370.64,"body":"empathy you always get an affirmative"},{"startTime":1368.84,"endTime":1373.279,"body":"answer because the dog responds to"},{"startTime":1370.64,"endTime":1375.159,"body":"emotions so if you're sad the dog will"},{"startTime":1373.279,"endTime":1376.679,"body":"try to console you and actually recently"},{"startTime":1375.159,"endTime":1379.32,"body":"an experiment was published on that"},{"startTime":1376.679,"endTime":1381.039,"body":"particular issue and and if you're happy"},{"startTime":1379.32,"endTime":1383.64,"body":"the dog will be happy and try to play"},{"startTime":1381.039,"endTime":1385.36,"body":"with you and and so dogs respond to our"},{"startTime":1383.64,"endTime":1387.08,"body":"emotions and we recognize that as"},{"startTime":1385.36,"endTime":1390.159,"body":"related to empathy because that's also"},{"startTime":1387.08,"endTime":1391.679,"body":"in young children how we see empathy and"},{"startTime":1390.159,"endTime":1395.08,"body":"so that kind of resistance has now"},{"startTime":1391.679,"endTime":1397.2,"body":"subsided to a large degree I think"},{"startTime":1395.08,"endTime":1398.84,"body":"because rodents have now empathy"},{"startTime":1397.2,"endTime":1401.12,"body":"According to some people and birds have"},{"startTime":1398.84,"endTime":1403.039,"body":"it according to some people and and so"},{"startTime":1401.12,"endTime":1405.08,"body":"it's not limited I'm not just talking"},{"startTime":1403.039,"endTime":1407.32,"body":"about chimpunes anymore it's it's a wide"},{"startTime":1405.08,"endTime":1409.0,"body":"range of animals and certainly mammals"},{"startTime":1407.32,"endTime":1411.039,"body":"and birds in which we recognize that"},{"startTime":1409.0,"endTime":1413.52,"body":"they're sensitive to the emotions of"},{"startTime":1411.039,"endTime":1415.64,"body":"others and we're not necessarily"},{"startTime":1413.52,"endTime":1417.52,"body":"claiming perspective taking or theory of"},{"startTime":1415.64,"endTime":1418.96,"body":"mind even though I think in some species"},{"startTime":1417.52,"endTime":1421.88,"body":"like elephants and apes that that"},{"startTime":1418.96,"endTime":1424.24,"body":"becomes a big issue and a big"},{"startTime":1421.88,"endTime":1427.12,"body":"possibility so where do you take it from"},{"startTime":1424.24,"endTime":1430.08,"body":"here then well we keep doing experiments"},{"startTime":1427.12,"endTime":1431.52,"body":"on this and and we keep doing"},{"startTime":1430.08,"endTime":1434.039,"body":"experiments on"},{"startTime":1431.52,"endTime":1436.84,"body":"cooperation uh I think the the empathy"},{"startTime":1434.039,"endTime":1438.6,"body":"literature on animals will keep growing"},{"startTime":1436.84,"endTime":1441.48,"body":"the the word is not really a taboo"},{"startTime":1438.6,"endTime":1443.24,"body":"anymore I have the impression and and so"},{"startTime":1441.48,"endTime":1445.64,"body":"it will get bigger and and then people"},{"startTime":1443.24,"endTime":1447.48,"body":"will and that happens with every term"},{"startTime":1445.64,"endTime":1450.039,"body":"that we use if you use the term theory"},{"startTime":1447.48,"endTime":1452.12,"body":"of Mind initially it's a black and white"},{"startTime":1450.039,"endTime":1455.48,"body":"discussion do does this animal have"},{"startTime":1452.12,"endTime":1457.159,"body":"theory of mind yes or no and now we are"},{"startTime":1455.48,"endTime":1459.84,"body":"at the point where the whole concept has"},{"startTime":1457.159,"endTime":1461.96,"body":"sort of Fallen apart in little pieces"},{"startTime":1459.84,"endTime":1464.0,"body":"and we say yes the Scrub Jays they may"},{"startTime":1461.96,"endTime":1465.6,"body":"have this part of it but not that part"},{"startTime":1464.0,"endTime":1467.919,"body":"or the elephants may have this part or"},{"startTime":1465.6,"endTime":1469.6,"body":"not that part and and and humans may"},{"startTime":1467.919,"endTime":1472.52,"body":"have all of Parts but I'm not even sure"},{"startTime":1469.6,"endTime":1475.48,"body":"that humans have all of the parts but um"},{"startTime":1472.52,"endTime":1477.399,"body":"certainly not not in early development"},{"startTime":1475.48,"endTime":1480.039,"body":"and so now the the concept has more or"},{"startTime":1477.399,"endTime":1481.76,"body":"less Fallen apart and and and the same"},{"startTime":1480.039,"endTime":1484.36,"body":"thing will happen with empathy I look at"},{"startTime":1481.76,"endTime":1487.919,"body":"empathy as a sort of umbrella term for"},{"startTime":1484.36,"endTime":1490.0,"body":"how one organism understands another or"},{"startTime":1487.919,"endTime":1491.559,"body":"or relates to the situation and the"},{"startTime":1490.0,"endTime":1494.559,"body":"feelings of another at"},{"startTime":1491.559,"endTime":1496.559,"body":"least but I'm sure 10 years from now we"},{"startTime":1494.559,"endTime":1499.279,"body":"will have divided it up in little pieces"},{"startTime":1496.559,"endTime":1502.039,"body":"and and and a dog will have only some of"},{"startTime":1499.279,"endTime":1503.36,"body":"these pieces that's really interesting"},{"startTime":1502.039,"endTime":1506.36,"body":"well Dr dwell thanks very much for"},{"startTime":1503.36,"endTime":1508.6,"body":"joining us cast you're welcome you have"},{"startTime":1506.36,"endTime":1510.72,"body":"been listening to the primate cast a"},{"startTime":1508.6,"endTime":1513.039,"body":"podcast series dedicated to the study"},{"startTime":1510.72,"endTime":1515.76,"body":"and conservation of primates around the"},{"startTime":1513.039,"endTime":1518.2,"body":"world brought to you by the center for"},{"startTime":1515.76,"endTime":1520.76,"body":"international collaboration and advanced"},{"startTime":1518.2,"endTime":1524.039,"body":"studies in primatology of the Primate"},{"startTime":1520.76,"endTime":1528.44,"body":"Research Institute of Kyoto University"},{"startTime":1524.039,"endTime":1533.88,"body":"visit us online at www. cicp"},{"startTime":1528.44,"endTime":1537.44,"body":". pr. keoto hyphen u.ac.jp"},{"startTime":1533.88,"endTime":1539.76,"body":"newws SLP podcasts and follow us on"},{"startTime":1537.44,"endTime":1544.279,"body":"Facebook at"},{"startTime":1539.76,"endTime":1548.2,"body":"www.fb.com thee primcast and on Twitter"},{"startTime":1544.279,"endTime":1548.2,"body":"at the primate cast"}]}