{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.68,"endTime":5.44,"body":"welcome to the primate cast hey everyone"},{"startTime":3.24,"endTime":6.839,"body":"now Andrew we are pretty fortunate here"},{"startTime":5.44,"endTime":8.4,"body":"at the Primate Research Institute"},{"startTime":6.839,"endTime":10.719,"body":"because we get a lot of"},{"startTime":8.4,"endTime":13.2,"body":"interesting visitors coming for a lot of"},{"startTime":10.719,"endTime":16.279,"body":"different research purposes we do indeed"},{"startTime":13.2,"endTime":18.52,"body":"and it's really nice for us doing this"},{"startTime":16.279,"endTime":20.0,"body":"uh podcast when they come we kind of"},{"startTime":18.52,"endTime":21.32,"body":"take them aside and ask them if they'd"},{"startTime":20.0,"endTime":23.32,"body":"like to sit down and talk about their"},{"startTime":21.32,"endTime":25.0,"body":"research yeah and fortunately people are"},{"startTime":23.32,"endTime":27.039,"body":"usually pretty willing to do so so we"},{"startTime":25.0,"endTime":29.439,"body":"have a bit of an archive now that's a"},{"startTime":27.039,"endTime":31.24,"body":"that is continues to grow and today what"},{"startTime":29.439,"endTime":32.719,"body":"we like to do is get back on top of that"},{"startTime":31.24,"endTime":35.44,"body":"and bring up one of the interviews we"},{"startTime":32.719,"endTime":38.399,"body":"conducted in March of this year 2012"},{"startTime":35.44,"endTime":40.719,"body":"with Dr sirel grutter mhm yeah and so he"},{"startTime":38.399,"endTime":42.68,"body":"was visiting Japan um and specifically"},{"startTime":40.719,"endTime":45.96,"body":"the Primate Research Institute to meet"},{"startTime":42.68,"endTime":48.68,"body":"with some collaborators um Dr Goro and"},{"startTime":45.96,"endTime":50.28,"body":"Dr yam tsuji to talk about temperate"},{"startTime":48.68,"endTime":55.12,"body":"primates and the Ecology of temperate"},{"startTime":50.28,"endTime":57.48,"body":"primates and also Dr IIM matsura to talk"},{"startTime":55.12,"endTime":60.0,"body":"about a an upcoming special issue in the"},{"startTime":57.48,"endTime":62.48,"body":"international Journal of primatology on"},{"startTime":60.0,"endTime":63.96,"body":"multi-level societies MH um those two"},{"startTime":62.48,"endTime":65.88,"body":"are are putting that together or have"},{"startTime":63.96,"endTime":67.6,"body":"put that together with Dr champ Pang in"},{"startTime":65.88,"endTime":70.4,"body":"in China as"},{"startTime":67.6,"endTime":72.479,"body":"well and so we were we were happy to"},{"startTime":70.4,"endTime":74.36,"body":"have him sit down with us in the podcast"},{"startTime":72.479,"endTime":76.64,"body":"absolutely and we should probably just"},{"startTime":74.36,"endTime":78.64,"body":"get right into that sure all right so"},{"startTime":76.64,"endTime":80.92,"body":"here's the interview there he is so"},{"startTime":78.64,"endTime":83.119,"body":"we're joined here with sirial grter"},{"startTime":80.92,"endTime":85.52,"body":"who's visiting us well from from where"},{"startTime":83.119,"endTime":87.759,"body":"are you visiting us today um actually"},{"startTime":85.52,"endTime":89.64,"body":"from Switzerland yeah I completed my"},{"startTime":87.759,"endTime":93.28,"body":"post-doctoral work at the max plank"},{"startTime":89.64,"endTime":95.56,"body":"instit in Germany in Li and now I'm"},{"startTime":93.28,"endTime":97.24,"body":"basically jobless for a few months but I"},{"startTime":95.56,"endTime":99.759,"body":"will soon start a new position in"},{"startTime":97.24,"endTime":102.32,"body":"Australia a teaching position and"},{"startTime":99.759,"endTime":104.6,"body":"research position yeah right yeah and so"},{"startTime":102.32,"endTime":106.759,"body":"in Australia you where will you be based"},{"startTime":104.6,"endTime":109.159,"body":"in per at the University of Western"},{"startTime":106.759,"endTime":112.04,"body":"Australia in the department of human"},{"startTime":109.159,"endTime":113.479,"body":"biology and Anatomy okay yeah well"},{"startTime":112.04,"endTime":115.84,"body":"congratulations on the new position"},{"startTime":113.479,"endTime":118.799,"body":"thank you very much great and bringing"},{"startTime":115.84,"endTime":121.36,"body":"primatology to Australia exactly many"},{"startTime":118.799,"endTime":123.119,"body":"primates there but I mean it's mostly um"},{"startTime":121.36,"endTime":126.719,"body":"morphological research that they are"},{"startTime":123.119,"endTime":129.0,"body":"doing some uh neurobiological research"},{"startTime":126.719,"endTime":131.72,"body":"physiological research endocrinological"},{"startTime":129.0,"endTime":133.04,"body":"work so I would like to cover the"},{"startTime":131.72,"endTime":135.4,"body":"primatological"},{"startTime":133.04,"endTime":137.599,"body":"aspect yeah okay so the term"},{"startTime":135.4,"endTime":140.2,"body":"primatological itself is pretty diverse"},{"startTime":137.599,"endTime":142.16,"body":"so so what is your background then uh"},{"startTime":140.2,"endTime":143.599,"body":"I'm mostly interested in primate social"},{"startTime":142.16,"endTime":146.319,"body":"Evolution what are the costs and"},{"startTime":143.599,"endTime":148.44,"body":"benefits of group living in primates and"},{"startTime":146.319,"endTime":151.239,"body":"I'm particularly interested in one type"},{"startTime":148.44,"endTime":154.239,"body":"of social organization in multi-level"},{"startTime":151.239,"endTime":156.0,"body":"societies okay multi-level societies are"},{"startTime":154.239,"endTime":157.44,"body":"probably among the most complex primate"},{"startTime":156.0,"endTime":160.2,"body":"societies because you have several"},{"startTime":157.44,"endTime":163.04,"body":"social levels you usually have uh one"},{"startTime":160.2,"endTime":165.0,"body":"male units or harm units at the basis"},{"startTime":163.04,"endTime":167.64,"body":"and then there's higher levels of social"},{"startTime":165.0,"endTime":169.64,"body":"grouping like bands or communities or"},{"startTime":167.64,"endTime":171.4,"body":"whatever and there's only very few"},{"startTime":169.64,"endTime":173.28,"body":"primate species that exhibit such a"},{"startTime":171.4,"endTime":175.76,"body":"multi-level societies like gelada"},{"startTime":173.28,"endTime":177.959,"body":"baboons or Hamed rise baboons and also"},{"startTime":175.76,"endTime":180.36,"body":"some cabines like"},{"startTime":177.959,"endTime":181.72,"body":"rhinopias and also humans"},{"startTime":180.36,"endTime":184.04,"body":"basically live in a multi-level"},{"startTime":181.72,"endTime":187.599,"body":"societies we have family groupings that"},{"startTime":184.04,"endTime":189.64,"body":"get together into larger social units"},{"startTime":187.599,"endTime":190.879,"body":"yeah that's right and and so Japan"},{"startTime":189.64,"endTime":192.84,"body":"actually has a bit of a history in"},{"startTime":190.879,"endTime":195.159,"body":"primatology studying species that"},{"startTime":192.84,"endTime":196.319,"body":"exhibit these multi-level societies did"},{"startTime":195.159,"endTime":198.959,"body":"you have any connection to the"},{"startTime":196.319,"endTime":201.239,"body":"researchers here previously uh so for"},{"startTime":198.959,"endTime":204.48,"body":"example AKO Mori did some work with"},{"startTime":201.239,"endTime":207.159,"body":"gelata baboons yeah I and I'm aware of"},{"startTime":204.48,"endTime":209.319,"body":"his work with gelada yeah yeah and then"},{"startTime":207.159,"endTime":210.4,"body":"more recently we had a a PhD student in"},{"startTime":209.319,"endTime":213.84,"body":"postto"},{"startTime":210.4,"endTime":216.08,"body":"Chang from from China who studied the"},{"startTime":213.84,"endTime":219.0,"body":"the sichan No No monis as well exactly"},{"startTime":216.08,"endTime":221.439,"body":"right so Chang pong and ikim matsuda and"},{"startTime":219.0,"endTime":223.36,"body":"me we are working on a special issue on"},{"startTime":221.439,"endTime":225.56,"body":"multi level societies to be published in"},{"startTime":223.36,"endTime":226.799,"body":"the international Journal of primatology"},{"startTime":225.56,"endTime":228.319,"body":"okay it's for the first time that we're"},{"startTime":226.799,"endTime":230.2,"body":"trying to get together researchers"},{"startTime":228.319,"endTime":232.439,"body":"studying different kinds of primate"},{"startTime":230.2,"endTime":234.92,"body":"species also non primate mammals that"},{"startTime":232.439,"endTime":237.76,"body":"live in multi-level societies and try to"},{"startTime":234.92,"endTime":240.4,"body":"integrate all these findings into into"},{"startTime":237.76,"endTime":242.079,"body":"co coherent model or whatever yeah it's"},{"startTime":240.4,"endTime":244.2,"body":"quite a daunting test because it's such"},{"startTime":242.079,"endTime":245.959,"body":"a complex phenomenon but that's right"},{"startTime":244.2,"endTime":248.439,"body":"and you were describing earlier that"},{"startTime":245.959,"endTime":251.0,"body":"that editor of igp was okay with you"},{"startTime":248.439,"endTime":252.239,"body":"bringing in studies on well what what"},{"startTime":251.0,"endTime":254.56,"body":"what else is going to be in the special"},{"startTime":252.239,"endTime":256.519,"body":"issue well there's one paper on sperm"},{"startTime":254.56,"endTime":258.479,"body":"whales which live in very complex"},{"startTime":256.519,"endTime":261.32,"body":"societies one on Asian and African"},{"startTime":258.479,"endTime":264.32,"body":"elephants and one on human Hunter gers"},{"startTime":261.32,"endTime":267.4,"body":"okay W so when can we expect to see this"},{"startTime":264.32,"endTime":268.72,"body":"uh I would say Pro two papers two"},{"startTime":267.4,"endTime":270.36,"body":"contributions have already been"},{"startTime":268.72,"endTime":272.28,"body":"published on the website"},{"startTime":270.36,"endTime":274.32,"body":"but we expect the special issue to be"},{"startTime":272.28,"endTime":275.759,"body":"ready sometime later this year probably"},{"startTime":274.32,"endTime":278.52,"body":"by the end of the year it should be"},{"startTime":275.759,"endTime":281.16,"body":"should be out yeah okay yeah that's"},{"startTime":278.52,"endTime":283.36,"body":"pretty cool that you uh studied in China"},{"startTime":281.16,"endTime":285.24,"body":"how did you get Affiliated there and"},{"startTime":283.36,"endTime":287.12,"body":"start your studies there because they"},{"startTime":285.24,"endTime":289.12,"body":"have so many primates but not a lot of"},{"startTime":287.12,"endTime":292.16,"body":"research going on that's true I mean"},{"startTime":289.12,"endTime":293.759,"body":"it's extremely difficult uh to establish"},{"startTime":292.16,"endTime":296.88,"body":"a research program in China as a"},{"startTime":293.759,"endTime":299.0,"body":"foreigner I mean first of all um you"},{"startTime":296.88,"endTime":301.08,"body":"need to find a counterpart you know that"},{"startTime":299.0,"endTime":303.12,"body":"helps you to get the permit to work in a"},{"startTime":301.08,"endTime":306.0,"body":"national park something like that you"},{"startTime":303.12,"endTime":308.6,"body":"need to learn some Chinese without any"},{"startTime":306.0,"endTime":312.12,"body":"Chinese you can survive in China that's"},{"startTime":308.6,"endTime":315.28,"body":"for sure how's your Chinese uh I would"},{"startTime":312.12,"endTime":318.919,"body":"say my Chinese was quite good in like"},{"startTime":315.28,"endTime":320.96,"body":"2007 you know like my Chinese peaked"},{"startTime":318.919,"endTime":323.28,"body":"when I was actually in the field and I"},{"startTime":320.96,"endTime":326.919,"body":"had to use it every day yeah but now"},{"startTime":323.28,"endTime":329.84,"body":"it's kind of it has yeah suffered a"},{"startTime":326.919,"endTime":332.639,"body":"little bit yeah okay yeah"},{"startTime":329.84,"endTime":335.479,"body":"but I can still get by I can communicate"},{"startTime":332.639,"endTime":337.319,"body":"yeah great and have you always had a"},{"startTime":335.479,"endTime":339.639,"body":"focus on the multi-level Societies or"},{"startTime":337.319,"endTime":341.96,"body":"how did you get interested in that topic"},{"startTime":339.639,"endTime":343.72,"body":"I actually first got interested in rhin"},{"startTime":341.96,"endTime":346.639,"body":"aticus before I got interested in"},{"startTime":343.72,"endTime":348.639,"body":"multi-level societies I was a bit naive"},{"startTime":346.639,"endTime":351.52,"body":"when I had to decide on a topic for my"},{"startTime":348.639,"endTime":354.36,"body":"masters and I was basically looking at"},{"startTime":351.52,"endTime":357.0,"body":"that pictural guide of living primates"},{"startTime":354.36,"endTime":359.199,"body":"and uh for the snupn monkeys there was a"},{"startTime":357.0,"endTime":361.6,"body":"lot of missing information so for"},{"startTime":359.199,"endTime":363.96,"body":"several social variables It Was Written"},{"startTime":361.6,"endTime":367.4,"body":"na not applicable or not available or"},{"startTime":363.96,"endTime":369.199,"body":"whatever so this kind of uh got me"},{"startTime":367.4,"endTime":371.24,"body":"thinking you know and that I I wanted to"},{"startTime":369.199,"endTime":372.759,"body":"figure out why is there nothing known"},{"startTime":371.24,"endTime":374.0,"body":"about their social behavior and their"},{"startTime":372.759,"endTime":376.28,"body":"social"},{"startTime":374.0,"endTime":378.639,"body":"organization and then I went to China"},{"startTime":376.28,"endTime":381.56,"body":"for the first time in 2001 I just wanted"},{"startTime":378.639,"endTime":383.16,"body":"to explore the area I want to see uh the"},{"startTime":381.56,"endTime":385.96,"body":"the natural environment where this rhin"},{"startTime":383.16,"endTime":388.16,"body":"aticus live in yunan Province and I"},{"startTime":385.96,"endTime":389.599,"body":"quickly understood why nobody has done"},{"startTime":388.16,"endTime":392.84,"body":"any research there because it's"},{"startTime":389.599,"endTime":396.4,"body":"extremely rugged terrain um"},{"startTime":392.84,"endTime":399.759,"body":"it's in Winter it gets very cold it's"},{"startTime":396.4,"endTime":401.56,"body":"snow covered and it's very remote and"},{"startTime":399.759,"endTime":404.12,"body":"it's not an easy place to do field work"},{"startTime":401.56,"endTime":406.599,"body":"that's for sure right and I didn't even"},{"startTime":404.12,"endTime":410.12,"body":"see any snos monkeys during my first"},{"startTime":406.599,"endTime":411.319,"body":"trip yeah wow I'm sure a few of the"},{"startTime":410.12,"endTime":414.0,"body":"listeners might have had similar"},{"startTime":411.319,"endTime":416.199,"body":"experiences in their own fieldwork"},{"startTime":414.0,"endTime":418.199,"body":"yeah and then I decided to do my"},{"startTime":416.199,"endTime":421.0,"body":"Master's research in captivity working"},{"startTime":418.199,"endTime":423.96,"body":"with a captive population of ripus beti"},{"startTime":421.0,"endTime":425.639,"body":"there's no ripus beti held outside of"},{"startTime":423.96,"endTime":427.72,"body":"China so there's only two captive"},{"startTime":425.639,"endTime":430.16,"body":"populations one in Beijing one in King"},{"startTime":427.72,"endTime":433.759,"body":"so I decided to do my research on the"},{"startTime":430.16,"endTime":436.039,"body":"population in King okay and it was"},{"startTime":433.759,"endTime":438.08,"body":"generally about social behavior I I"},{"startTime":436.039,"endTime":440.44,"body":"started with an ethogram and then I"},{"startTime":438.08,"endTime":443.84,"body":"moved on to study postc conflict uh"},{"startTime":440.44,"endTime":446.68,"body":"Behavior okay um I Quantified levels of"},{"startTime":443.84,"endTime":449.08,"body":"aggression and I Quantified uh"},{"startTime":446.68,"endTime":450.039,"body":"conciliatory Tendencies and something"},{"startTime":449.08,"endTime":451.4,"body":"like that"},{"startTime":450.039,"endTime":453.36,"body":"and we found that there are actually"},{"startTime":451.4,"endTime":456.199,"body":"they live in a highly egalitarian system"},{"startTime":453.36,"endTime":459.52,"body":"they have very high postc conflict uh"},{"startTime":456.199,"endTime":462.52,"body":"consiliary Tendencies so which is"},{"startTime":459.52,"endTime":463.879,"body":"typical for cabines yeah okay and so how"},{"startTime":462.52,"endTime":467.08,"body":"long did you spend in the field during"},{"startTime":463.879,"endTime":469.159,"body":"your phc work it was 18 months 18 months"},{"startTime":467.08,"endTime":471.44,"body":"and you mentioned earlier that for 14 of"},{"startTime":469.159,"endTime":473.879,"body":"those you had no idea exactly how many"},{"startTime":471.44,"endTime":475.44,"body":"monkeys you were studying yeah uh local"},{"startTime":473.879,"endTime":478.199,"body":"people kept telling me that there were"},{"startTime":475.44,"endTime":480.159,"body":"about 200 individuals in that group but"},{"startTime":478.199,"endTime":482.759,"body":"I just couldn't verify that information"},{"startTime":480.159,"endTime":484.919,"body":"because most of the time we saw just a"},{"startTime":482.759,"endTime":487.08,"body":"part of the group uh up in the tree"},{"startTime":484.919,"endTime":488.96,"body":"crowns we had no idea of how many"},{"startTime":487.08,"endTime":494.24,"body":"individuals were down on the ground or"},{"startTime":488.96,"endTime":497.159,"body":"in the underst story until one day in"},{"startTime":494.24,"endTime":499.0,"body":"2006 um when the group crossed an open"},{"startTime":497.159,"endTime":501.08,"body":"area it was a gap in the canopy like a"},{"startTime":499.0,"endTime":502.879,"body":"golly or something like that I could"},{"startTime":501.08,"endTime":504.8,"body":"actually for the first time count all"},{"startTime":502.879,"endTime":506.56,"body":"the members in the study group and I was"},{"startTime":504.8,"endTime":508.919,"body":"amazed when I realized that there were"},{"startTime":506.56,"endTime":511.959,"body":"more than 400 individuals in the group"},{"startTime":508.919,"endTime":514.12,"body":"it was 410 individuals that I"},{"startTime":511.959,"endTime":515.12,"body":"counted which is quite amazing so that"},{"startTime":514.12,"endTime":516.479,"body":"seems to be the thing with these"},{"startTime":515.12,"endTime":518.959,"body":"multi-level societies right we're"},{"startTime":516.479,"endTime":520.24,"body":"talking about a way to kind of structure"},{"startTime":518.959,"endTime":522.599,"body":"an incredibly large number of"},{"startTime":520.24,"endTime":525.04,"body":"individuals into some kind of a coherent"},{"startTime":522.599,"endTime":528.6,"body":"system exactly right in most Asian"},{"startTime":525.04,"endTime":530.88,"body":"cabines we we we find one M units single"},{"startTime":528.6,"endTime":532.92,"body":"independent one M units but there's only"},{"startTime":530.88,"endTime":535.8,"body":"very few taxa where these one M units"},{"startTime":532.92,"endTime":538.32,"body":"get together in larger bands so the"},{"startTime":535.8,"endTime":540.2,"body":"question the question was what are the"},{"startTime":538.32,"endTime":542.36,"body":"benefits and what are the cost of living"},{"startTime":540.2,"endTime":547.48,"body":"in these very large bands"},{"startTime":542.36,"endTime":550.44,"body":"mhm and well as for the the benefits I"},{"startTime":547.48,"endTime":553.079,"body":"mean first of all you need to have a"},{"startTime":550.44,"endTime":555.399,"body":"large resource base that allows such"},{"startTime":553.079,"endTime":557.56,"body":"large groups to form like in chelot"},{"startTime":555.399,"endTime":559.839,"body":"baboons you have this Alpine grasslands"},{"startTime":557.56,"endTime":562.279,"body":"where where a thousand geladas can feed"},{"startTime":559.839,"endTime":564.8,"body":"simultaneously without experiencing"},{"startTime":562.279,"endTime":566.959,"body":"substantial feeding competition and with"},{"startTime":564.8,"endTime":568.72,"body":"the ripus it's basically the same"},{"startTime":566.959,"endTime":572.279,"body":"because there's staple food or they"},{"startTime":568.72,"endTime":574.64,"body":"staple fall back food is lyans and lyans"},{"startTime":572.279,"endTime":576.56,"body":"are quite abundantly available almost"},{"startTime":574.64,"endTime":579.92,"body":"every conifer tree in their natural"},{"startTime":576.56,"endTime":582.2,"body":"habitat has some uh lyans hanging down"},{"startTime":579.92,"endTime":584.24,"body":"from the branches so this is the"},{"startTime":582.2,"endTime":586.48,"body":"ecological precondition for forming"},{"startTime":584.24,"endTime":589.8,"body":"these large multi-level societies but"},{"startTime":586.48,"endTime":592.56,"body":"that doesn't explain why this particular"},{"startTime":589.8,"endTime":595.399,"body":"social system has been selected for so"},{"startTime":592.56,"endTime":598.24,"body":"there must have been another reason MH"},{"startTime":595.399,"endTime":600.48,"body":"and um predation doesn't really make"},{"startTime":598.24,"endTime":603.36,"body":"sense because there's no need to form"},{"startTime":600.48,"endTime":605.8,"body":"such super groups to be protected from"},{"startTime":603.36,"endTime":609.56,"body":"predators I think 100 individuals would"},{"startTime":605.8,"endTime":611.6,"body":"probably be sufficient because uh the"},{"startTime":609.56,"endTime":614.6,"body":"the benefit of uh being protected from"},{"startTime":611.6,"endTime":616.56,"body":"predators uh the group size benefit at"},{"startTime":614.6,"endTime":618.76,"body":"some point probably saturat so there's"},{"startTime":616.56,"endTime":620.72,"body":"no need to form groups of this magnitude"},{"startTime":618.76,"endTime":622.2,"body":"and may actually start dropping the"},{"startTime":620.72,"endTime":625.72,"body":"other side of the slope if the group"},{"startTime":622.2,"endTime":627.12,"body":"then becomes more obvious yeah exactly"},{"startTime":625.72,"endTime":629.68,"body":"what kind of predators do they have to"},{"startTime":627.12,"endTime":631.6,"body":"deal with well they use they well these"},{"startTime":629.68,"endTime":635.32,"body":"days they don't have any natural"},{"startTime":631.6,"endTime":637.839,"body":"Predators maybe maybe leopards or maybe"},{"startTime":635.32,"endTime":640.44,"body":"clouded leopards but we haven't found"},{"startTime":637.839,"endTime":642.6,"body":"any evidence of predation and there is a"},{"startTime":640.44,"endTime":645.12,"body":"birds of prey that might catch a"},{"startTime":642.6,"endTime":646.959,"body":"juvenile or an infant that is playing up"},{"startTime":645.12,"endTime":648.72,"body":"in the tree crowns but I don't think"},{"startTime":646.959,"endTime":650.839,"body":"that predation explains why they formed"},{"startTime":648.72,"endTime":653.839,"body":"these large groups so we were trying to"},{"startTime":650.839,"endTime":656.16,"body":"uh look at Social um factors that might"},{"startTime":653.839,"endTime":658.68,"body":"play a role like um the threat of"},{"startTime":656.16,"endTime":661.0,"body":"Bachelor males yes we know that in these"},{"startTime":658.68,"endTime":663.0,"body":"large m Lev groups there's also very"},{"startTime":661.0,"endTime":664.76,"body":"large Bachelor groups that are always"},{"startTime":663.0,"endTime":666.839,"body":"hanging out at the periphery of the"},{"startTime":664.76,"endTime":668.6,"body":"Bands so they're basically constantly"},{"startTime":666.839,"endTime":670.959,"body":"following the bands and they pose a"},{"startTime":668.6,"endTime":672.079,"body":"constant threat to the unit leaders to"},{"startTime":670.959,"endTime":674.76,"body":"the harm"},{"startTime":672.079,"endTime":678.079,"body":"owners so it has been shown for uh"},{"startTime":674.76,"endTime":680.6,"body":"sebras that when stallion get together"},{"startTime":678.079,"endTime":682.8,"body":"the chance of being attacked or harassed"},{"startTime":680.6,"endTime":685.16,"body":"by a bachelor declines okay it's"},{"startTime":682.8,"endTime":686.839,"body":"basically a safety and numbers effect"},{"startTime":685.16,"endTime":688.72,"body":"and with the sebras it has also been"},{"startTime":686.839,"endTime":691.68,"body":"shown that these stallion males they"},{"startTime":688.72,"endTime":694.48,"body":"they collap at in attacking the bachelor"},{"startTime":691.68,"endTime":696.639,"body":"males okay so I was trying to test this"},{"startTime":694.48,"endTime":699.2,"body":"bachelor threat hypothesis for rhin"},{"startTime":696.639,"endTime":701.2,"body":"aticus and do the bachelor males if they"},{"startTime":699.2,"endTime":703.6,"body":"do succeed in getting into the group"},{"startTime":701.2,"endTime":706.32,"body":"commit infanticide they take over the"},{"startTime":703.6,"endTime":708.16,"body":"group and infanticide has also been uh"},{"startTime":706.32,"endTime":709.88,"body":"demonstrated yeah it has also been shown"},{"startTime":708.16,"endTime":713.04,"body":"in the field yeah that they do commit"},{"startTime":709.88,"endTime":715.04,"body":"infanticide okay but it was very"},{"startTime":713.04,"endTime":717.399,"body":"difficult to test this hypothesis in the"},{"startTime":715.04,"endTime":720.2,"body":"wild so I I chose another approach I did"},{"startTime":717.399,"endTime":722.279,"body":"a comparative analysis I extracted"},{"startTime":720.2,"endTime":725.12,"body":"information from the literature about"},{"startTime":722.279,"endTime":727.519,"body":"the presence or absence of modularity by"},{"startTime":725.12,"endTime":729.6,"body":"modularity I mean this tendency to get"},{"startTime":727.519,"endTime":733.079,"body":"together into larger bands having"},{"startTime":729.6,"endTime":735.0,"body":"extreme home range overlap and so on and"},{"startTime":733.079,"endTime":737.48,"body":"we actually found that in those"},{"startTime":735.0,"endTime":741.0,"body":"populations where there's a lot of"},{"startTime":737.48,"endTime":742.88,"body":"Bachelors around the tendency to form uh"},{"startTime":741.0,"endTime":745.399,"body":"multi-level societies is much higher"},{"startTime":742.88,"endTime":747.279,"body":"there was a significant difference yeah"},{"startTime":745.399,"endTime":749.24,"body":"very interesting and we Quantified the"},{"startTime":747.279,"endTime":751.72,"body":"presence of Bachelor May by looking at"},{"startTime":749.24,"endTime":753.68,"body":"the sex ratio of the bisexual population"},{"startTime":751.72,"endTime":755.959,"body":"Yeah the more biased the sex ratio of"},{"startTime":753.68,"endTime":758.48,"body":"the uh bisexual population the more"},{"startTime":755.959,"endTime":760.48,"body":"males are expected to be excluded and"},{"startTime":758.48,"endTime":763.04,"body":"the higher Bachelor threat is expected"},{"startTime":760.48,"endTime":765.16,"body":"to be so we found this neat correlation"},{"startTime":763.04,"endTime":767.399,"body":"between these two variables so there"},{"startTime":765.16,"endTime":770.839,"body":"seems to be an effect of Bachelor threat"},{"startTime":767.399,"endTime":773.12,"body":"on this tendency to Aggregate and the"},{"startTime":770.839,"endTime":774.88,"body":"same model has been tested with gelada"},{"startTime":773.12,"endTime":776.56,"body":"baboons recently and they found exactly"},{"startTime":774.88,"endTime":778.399,"body":"the same okay so it might be something"},{"startTime":776.56,"endTime":780.199,"body":"that's a little general and robust they"},{"startTime":778.399,"endTime":782.72,"body":"call it the the the we we could also"},{"startTime":780.199,"endTime":784.56,"body":"call it the social Predator hypothesis"},{"startTime":782.72,"endTime":786.519,"body":"it's not natural Predators it's social"},{"startTime":784.56,"endTime":789.24,"body":"predators that have an effect on"},{"startTime":786.519,"endTime":792.36,"body":"grouping patterns okay so completely"},{"startTime":789.24,"endTime":795.0,"body":"changing gears here so at MPI then you"},{"startTime":792.36,"endTime":796.88,"body":"left China and you started work on"},{"startTime":795.0,"endTime":800.16,"body":"mountain gorillas yes I started working"},{"startTime":796.88,"endTime":802.399,"body":"on another Montaine primate population"},{"startTime":800.16,"endTime":804.56,"body":"yeah from the mount from the Himalayas"},{"startTime":802.399,"endTime":806.32,"body":"to the vironga volcanoes in central"},{"startTime":804.56,"endTime":807.6,"body":"Africa yeah okay so what was that"},{"startTime":806.32,"endTime":809.6,"body":"experience like then I mean there's"},{"startTime":807.6,"endTime":812.0,"body":"obviously a lot of history you're"},{"startTime":809.6,"endTime":813.959,"body":"working at the K Institute there I mean"},{"startTime":812.0,"endTime":815.72,"body":"I felt very privileged to be able to"},{"startTime":813.959,"endTime":817.76,"body":"study those mountain gorillas that D"},{"startTime":815.72,"endTime":820.839,"body":"fosy habituated"},{"startTime":817.76,"endTime":822.76,"body":"for uh to to human beings I mean it was"},{"startTime":820.839,"endTime":824.32,"body":"it was an amazing experience and it was"},{"startTime":822.76,"endTime":826.279,"body":"so different from working in China"},{"startTime":824.32,"endTime":827.92,"body":"because the those gorillas are fully"},{"startTime":826.279,"endTime":829.0,"body":"habituated so you could actually get"},{"startTime":827.92,"endTime":831.56,"body":"very close to them you could"},{"startTime":829.0,"endTime":833.56,"body":"individually recognize the animals right"},{"startTime":831.56,"endTime":835.12,"body":"you you you knew all their individual"},{"startTime":833.56,"endTime":836.6,"body":"life histories it was a totally"},{"startTime":835.12,"endTime":840.6,"body":"different experience and there are not"},{"startTime":836.6,"endTime":842.92,"body":"400 of them in one group"},{"startTime":840.6,"endTime":844.959,"body":"although the the average group size has"},{"startTime":842.92,"endTime":846.8,"body":"increased over time now the average"},{"startTime":844.959,"endTime":848.48,"body":"group size is much larger than in the"},{"startTime":846.8,"endTime":852.32,"body":"past okay I mean the whole population"},{"startTime":848.48,"endTime":854.12,"body":"has increased from 250 in the 1980s to"},{"startTime":852.32,"endTime":856.6,"body":"480 in"},{"startTime":854.12,"endTime":859.24,"body":"2010 and the average group size has gone"},{"startTime":856.6,"endTime":861.72,"body":"up as well so we were basically"},{"startTime":859.24,"endTime":863.639,"body":"interested in whether these gorillas in"},{"startTime":861.72,"endTime":866.16,"body":"the veruna volcanoes still have"},{"startTime":863.639,"endTime":868.44,"body":"sufficient resources whether they are"},{"startTime":866.16,"endTime":870.12,"body":"approaching the carrying capacity I see"},{"startTime":868.44,"endTime":872.24,"body":"so we had some comparative data about"},{"startTime":870.12,"endTime":875.6,"body":"food availability that were collected 20"},{"startTime":872.24,"endTime":878.199,"body":"years ago and we resampled the same area"},{"startTime":875.6,"endTime":879.6,"body":"we we re replicated the same study in"},{"startTime":878.199,"endTime":881.92,"body":"order to find out whether food"},{"startTime":879.6,"endTime":885.48,"body":"availability has changed as the"},{"startTime":881.92,"endTime":887.72,"body":"population density has increased and so"},{"startTime":885.48,"endTime":889.199,"body":"my understanding is that specific place"},{"startTime":887.72,"endTime":891.199,"body":"kind of also has a long history with"},{"startTime":889.199,"endTime":893.68,"body":"conservation so does your studies have"},{"startTime":891.199,"endTime":895.959,"body":"kind of a conservation aspect to them"},{"startTime":893.68,"endTime":897.04,"body":"absolutely I mean these results are"},{"startTime":895.959,"endTime":899.48,"body":"obviously very important for"},{"startTime":897.04,"endTime":901.68,"body":"conservation management I mean the"},{"startTime":899.48,"endTime":903.56,"body":"virunga volcano it's basically a forest"},{"startTime":901.68,"endTime":906.24,"body":"Island which is surrounded by"},{"startTime":903.56,"endTime":909.36,"body":"agricultural Fields so there's no way of"},{"startTime":906.24,"endTime":911.04,"body":"dispersing or of moving to another empty"},{"startTime":909.36,"endTime":914.12,"body":"habitat for the gorillas are basically"},{"startTime":911.04,"endTime":916.12,"body":"confined to this patch of forest and at"},{"startTime":914.12,"endTime":917.839,"body":"some point the population will reach its"},{"startTime":916.12,"endTime":919.8,"body":"carrying capacity we just don't know"},{"startTime":917.839,"endTime":921.56,"body":"when this will happen and there's been"},{"startTime":919.8,"endTime":923.8,"body":"lots of studies on other mammals where"},{"startTime":921.56,"endTime":926.92,"body":"the population has reached a peak and"},{"startTime":923.8,"endTime":928.68,"body":"then the population just crashed so"},{"startTime":926.92,"endTime":930.199,"body":"something like this could also be we"},{"startTime":928.68,"endTime":931.959,"body":"could predict something like this for"},{"startTime":930.199,"endTime":934.079,"body":"the gorilla population so I believe it's"},{"startTime":931.959,"endTime":936.36,"body":"very important to monitor the food"},{"startTime":934.079,"endTime":938.92,"body":"resources because that's what sustains"},{"startTime":936.36,"endTime":941.959,"body":"the population everybody's happy about"},{"startTime":938.92,"endTime":944.36,"body":"every newborn gorilla and about the"},{"startTime":941.959,"endTime":946.16,"body":"constantly increasing population size"},{"startTime":944.36,"endTime":950.48,"body":"but not many people are actually worried"},{"startTime":946.16,"endTime":952.519,"body":"about what does this mean in in terms of"},{"startTime":950.48,"endTime":955.199,"body":"resource competition in terms of"},{"startTime":952.519,"endTime":957.639,"body":"resource availability sustainability of"},{"startTime":955.199,"endTime":959.639,"body":"the population yeah so what's next for"},{"startTime":957.639,"endTime":961.6,"body":"serial grer"},{"startTime":959.639,"endTime":964.759,"body":"I I if possible I would like to continue"},{"startTime":961.6,"endTime":967.319,"body":"working on these two species yeah and"},{"startTime":964.759,"endTime":969.24,"body":"keep working on multi-level societies"},{"startTime":967.319,"endTime":971.72,"body":"and maybe expand the Horizon a little"},{"startTime":969.24,"endTime":973.399,"body":"bit by also starting to think about"},{"startTime":971.72,"endTime":976.279,"body":"humans about the human social system"},{"startTime":973.399,"endTime":979.079,"body":"what are the parallels what can we learn"},{"startTime":976.279,"endTime":981.36,"body":"about this Human Social evolution by"},{"startTime":979.079,"endTime":985.199,"body":"studying multi-level sociality in"},{"startTime":981.36,"endTime":987.24,"body":"non-human primates okay sounds exciting"},{"startTime":985.199,"endTime":990.04,"body":"wow and is there any Crossover with kind"},{"startTime":987.24,"endTime":993.48,"body":"of ethnography you mentioned small scale"},{"startTime":990.04,"endTime":996.279,"body":"Societies in Africa before y so are you"},{"startTime":993.48,"endTime":998.839,"body":"studying them in terms of multi-level uh"},{"startTime":996.279,"endTime":1000.56,"body":"not me but who knows maybe that's a"},{"startTime":998.839,"endTime":1002.68,"body":"possible project for the future yeah"},{"startTime":1000.56,"endTime":1005.0,"body":"yeah obviously yeah I think it would be"},{"startTime":1002.68,"endTime":1006.8,"body":"worthwhile to actually cross the Gap and"},{"startTime":1005.0,"endTime":1009.319,"body":"and bring these two disciplines together"},{"startTime":1006.8,"endTime":1011.16,"body":"cultural anthropology biological"},{"startTime":1009.319,"endTime":1012.56,"body":"anthropology well it's funny because"},{"startTime":1011.16,"endTime":1014.319,"body":"there's there's generally been a trend"},{"startTime":1012.56,"endTime":1016.759,"body":"to widening the gap between those two"},{"startTime":1014.319,"endTime":1018.6,"body":"Fields right sometimes I remember Bill"},{"startTime":1016.759,"endTime":1021.079,"body":"McGrew when he when he gave his final"},{"startTime":1018.6,"endTime":1023.6,"body":"round up for this uh small Symposium we"},{"startTime":1021.079,"endTime":1024.679,"body":"had in Kyoto a few years ago his uh main"},{"startTime":1023.6,"endTime":1027.0,"body":"point was we've seen a lot of"},{"startTime":1024.679,"endTime":1029.0,"body":"interesting research from a lot of young"},{"startTime":1027.0,"endTime":1030.52,"body":"scientists but one thing that he he"},{"startTime":1029.0,"endTime":1032.039,"body":"wanted to put a call out for was to"},{"startTime":1030.52,"endTime":1034.0,"body":"bring more anthropology back into"},{"startTime":1032.039,"endTime":1036.839,"body":"primatology yeah yeah it's"},{"startTime":1034.0,"endTime":1039.28,"body":"interesting uh just before I forget too"},{"startTime":1036.839,"endTime":1042.12,"body":"what are you doing here in Japan um I'm"},{"startTime":1039.28,"endTime":1046.039,"body":"working on a special issue together with"},{"startTime":1042.12,"endTime":1049.36,"body":"uh Yamato and Goro so that's Yamato Tui"},{"startTime":1046.039,"endTime":1050.96,"body":"and Goro exactly right yeah so we had a"},{"startTime":1049.36,"endTime":1054.2,"body":"symposium at the International"},{"startTime":1050.96,"endTime":1056.44,"body":"primatology Conference in 2010 in Kyoto"},{"startTime":1054.2,"endTime":1059.32,"body":"about adaptations of primates to"},{"startTime":1056.44,"endTime":1061.84,"body":"temperate environments so what what kind"},{"startTime":1059.32,"endTime":1065.24,"body":"of strategies do they have to cope with"},{"startTime":1061.84,"endTime":1067.559,"body":"extreme resource season seasonality with"},{"startTime":1065.24,"endTime":1070.16,"body":"extreme cold with lack of resources in"},{"startTime":1067.559,"endTime":1072.28,"body":"winter so that was the idea because"},{"startTime":1070.16,"endTime":1075.76,"body":"that's exactly what the snubnose monkeys"},{"startTime":1072.28,"endTime":1077.84,"body":"also experience they experience um a"},{"startTime":1075.76,"endTime":1079.52,"body":"shortage of food resources in winter in"},{"startTime":1077.84,"endTime":1082.159,"body":"Winter there's basically no fruits"},{"startTime":1079.52,"endTime":1083.88,"body":"available no leaves available so they"},{"startTime":1082.159,"endTime":1087.159,"body":"have to come up with some fallback"},{"startTime":1083.88,"endTime":1089.44,"body":"strategies to to survive so we are"},{"startTime":1087.159,"endTime":1092.559,"body":"basically comparing strategies in"},{"startTime":1089.44,"endTime":1094.6,"body":"cabines versus strategies in Max to see"},{"startTime":1092.559,"endTime":1096.84,"body":"whether there's differences or"},{"startTime":1094.6,"endTime":1099.0,"body":"similarities in order to explain how"},{"startTime":1096.84,"endTime":1102.36,"body":"they have conquered the the temp"},{"startTime":1099.0,"endTime":1104.6,"body":"temperate zone yeah primates of the"},{"startTime":1102.36,"endTime":1106.159,"body":"temperate zone I like it well there's"},{"startTime":1104.6,"endTime":1109.159,"body":"also human primates in the temperate"},{"startTime":1106.159,"endTime":1110.52,"body":"zone and there there were neander TS I"},{"startTime":1109.159,"endTime":1112.64,"body":"don't know maybe this will also shed"},{"startTime":1110.52,"endTime":1113.88,"body":"light on human evolution who knows all"},{"startTime":1112.64,"endTime":1118.28,"body":"right s well thanks for joining us on"},{"startTime":1113.88,"endTime":1118.28,"body":"theate cast thank you much yeah"}]}