Avi Press and Matt Yonkovit sit down for the first episode of our podcast covering Open Source Business Topics. In this episode we cover companies moving from Open Source Licenses to Non-Open Source Licenses like the BSL. Building an open source business is hard, so is this a natural evolution? or something else? Tune in and listen to our thoughts.
Checkout our other interviews, clips, and videos: https://l.hosbp.com/Youtube
Don’t forget to visit the open-source business community at: https://opensourcebusiness.community/
Visit our primary sponsor, Scarf, for tools to help analyze your #opensource growth and adoption: https://about.scarf.sh/
Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app:
Spotify: https://l.hosbp.com/Spotify
Apple: https://l.hosbp.com/Apple
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Buzzsprout: https://l.hosbp.com/Buzzsprout
Avi Press and Matt Yonkovit sit down for the first episode of our podcast covering Open Source Business Topics. In this episode we cover companies moving from Open Source Licenses to Non-Open Source Licenses like the BSL. Building an open source business is hard, so is this a natural evolution? or something else? Tune in and listen to our thoughts.
Checkout our other interviews, clips, and videos: https://l.hosbp.com/Youtube
Don’t forget to visit the open-source business community at: https://opensourcebusiness.community/
Visit our primary sponsor, Scarf, for tools to help analyze your #opensource growth and adoption: https://about.scarf.sh/
Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app:
Spotify: https://l.hosbp.com/Spotify
Apple: https://l.hosbp.com/Apple
Google: https://l.hosbp.com/Google
Buzzsprout: https://l.hosbp.com/Buzzsprout
Hacking OSS
[00:00:00] Matt Yonkovit: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the first episode, the very first of the hacking open source business podcast. Yes, we are here to launch this new thing. Avi and I were talking and you might have heard us on my podcast previously, or you might have heard a on other podcasts. And we were getting together chatting about, the open source business space.
[00:00:24] How really there's a lot of people who don't understand how to build and grow their open source businesses. They understand how to maybe start a project, but actually turning it into a viable business is something that is missing. And so Avi and I decided let's get together and chat about this.
[00:00:41] Avi Press: Absolutely. I'm very excited to do so as someone who has tried and failed to do this before I know a lot about what doesn't work and I'm excited to dig into that together. And with a bunch of other people who are actively doing it themselves, it can share their war stories, their lessons learned things that they're thinking about, et cetera.
[00:00:58] So it should be. Good fun. [00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Matt: Yeah. And for those who don't know a or myself, Avi runs, uh, the company's scarf and he actually built scarf because he saw this issue in the business space previously where he couldn't figure out who was actually using and, doing things with his open source.
[00:01:19] That
[00:01:19] Avi Press: is exactly right. It is a tough position to be in because you, you know, you may see the traction, you may see evidence that there is you know, a viable business in front of you, but that's not really enough to really go and execute successfully and build a sustainable business. There's a big gap between.
[00:01:38] A project that has some commercial traction versus a project that has a sustainable business model around it. That gap is really, really big and. there's a lot of people out there that are working to make this gap smaller. And so that's who we want to talk to and learn from and, dig into their, the [00:02:00] mistakes that they've made, the things that they've tried, that are working and, you know, all the lessons that we can really learn together.
[00:02:05] I think in the same way that in the open source space, we collaborate on technologies and coding methodologies and all these sorts of really all the different facets of open source. It's time that we do that for the business side of things as well, start to learn from each other, um, you know, get together, develop standards, these kinds of things, and, and hopefully build an open source ecosystem where people are, you know, paid fairly for their work.
[00:02:29] Um, people are able to. Build sustainable projects and do more of what they love to do.
[00:02:37] Matt: Yeah, no, and I think that's, this is a pain point that I've seen over my career as well. You see companies who, you know, try to take an open source project and turn it into something that is a business model, which isn't.
[00:02:51] right, because open source is not a business model on its own. You actually have to have a business model behind your open source software and your business, if you want to monetize it and not [00:03:00] everyone does. And that's okay. But I think that just slapping the open source label on it and calling it good doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually gonna have commercial success in the end.
[00:03:10] So we need to be mindful of that. For sure now I didn't get to introduce myself. So I'm Matt Yonkovit. I actually am the head of community at StreamNative, who is an Apache pulsar company also do some advising, uh, for various other open source companies. Including helping Avi out once in a while.
[00:03:28] So, we are here to chat a little bit about the open source space. So. Why don't we jump into it? Because I think the big thing that is the news of the week is Akka. Right. And that, you know, is something that just happened. And, , for those who don't know, Akka is. Um, you know, a, an open source toolkit that has been around for quite some time, it's actually in a lot of different projects, including things like Apache fink and a few other, open source [00:04:00] projects and light bend, who does, , Build and, you know, distribute Akka has decided to drop the open source license, , which is an interesting thing.
[00:04:10] And, they're, moving towards the BSL. So the business, service license, business service,
[00:04:16] Avi Press: software
[00:04:16] Matt: license, uh, yeah, I should actually know business software license I think is, is what the. As we go to the Googles to find out yeah. Who should know about abbreviations. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things.
[00:04:27] That's okay. Yeah. It's the business source license, business source license. Okay. Developed by Maria DB. And for those who don't know what the business source license is. It is a non opensource license. So it's not officially OSI certified. It is designed as a license to allow the creators and the maintainers to cont uh, maintain control.
[00:04:47] And so kind of like the, the sole ability to monetize the software for a certain time period. So it, it could also be called the eventual open source model. Right. So you put [00:05:00] out some software, uh, it is. Source available so you can get it. You can use it for non-commercial activities, but you are restricted from monetizing it until a period of three years.
[00:05:15] In many cases, sometimes it's less. Sometimes it's more at which case that particular version moves over to an unrestricted open source license. So for two to three years, it is. Not open source anymore. And then it becomes open source. So Avi, you know, what's your take on like the licenses, like the BSL and like this particular.
[00:05:40] Avi Press: I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, I, I, I do like the notion of licenses that can, you know, maybe per have some kind of protections for the company that is say putting in the vast majority of their efforts. Into a given piece of software. Um, what's really [00:06:00] tough about this particular case for this kind of move, um, is that Akka is already everywhere.
[00:06:07] And so what a change like this does, it puts a lot of people in a really tough position because they could find themselves with a very sudden. Multimillion dollar liability, um, for a dependency that they didn't even know they had, , which, , the, it makes the calculus for a lot of companies to turn into.
[00:06:25] Well, you know, we could either, either start paying light bend. You know that I think the way that they modeled it was, it was like a per core, um, a per yeah, per, per core of machine that you are running Akka on is how the, the pricing model is, which a, I think is already kind of very challenging to price given the cloud, um, you know, given, given the cloud, it's very, you know, this is supposed to abstract away, these kinds of things, very counterintuitively, But when you start talking about million, you know, multimillion dollar liabilities for the fortune 500, 100 companies, um, you start to get into a territory [00:07:00] where just maintaining your own fork becomes, you know, potentially cost effective to do.
[00:07:05] Um, and so I think, you know, I I'm, I'm in a position where I, I am feeling like this is, uh, you know, a, a rightfully controversial move. I think a lot of people are willing. Really pushing back against this move. And I think it's very understandable, but I think it really highlights kind of the whole crux of why we are here to talk about this, which is that even for.
[00:07:28] It's extremely successful projects like Akka has been, it's very challenging to build a sustainable business around it. Um, and you know, you see, you see companies like light bend, try to, make tweaks and changes and ultimately kind of reach for the BSL. I, what I see when I, when I read those articles is wow.
[00:07:48] It's still really hard to build a sustainable business around even the most popular and critical of open source infrastructure. , yeah. And that's separate from my opinions on, you know, um, the, the BSL in [00:08:00] particular, it is not an open source license, just period. It just isn't. Um, but eventual open source is better than just full proprietary.
[00:08:06] So I dunno. yeah.
[00:08:08] Matt: Well, so, so I mean, I have a lot of thoughts of course, yeah. To toward this, but I, I, I do think that you are right. , when you. You know, not only is this not an open source, but it really highlights how difficult it is, because just because you have a popular project does not mean that it is a commercially viable one.
[00:08:28] And I'm not saying that AKA does not have a commercially viable product. I don't know what light Bend's revenue is. I don't even know if it's disclosed anywhere. , I'm guessing not because I do not think that there are, , publishing that anywhere. I, I don't know if this is like, they're not getting anything or they're just getting a little bit, or they're getting like, not enough and they need more.
[00:08:48] You know, certainly we've seen this type of move from the Mongo, DBS, the couch bases, Maria DBS. There's a lot of companies that have delved into this, uh, often as a hedge against the cloud.[00:09:00] So there is that kind of like movement. I think the biggest issue that I typically have for this is this is something that is generally wrapped in some language that it's we're open, or this is an open license or this.
[00:09:19] So they try to still say that they're somewhat open, but they're not always open. Uh, that is a challenge in and of itself. But it's funny because the implications of moving something into the open source space, then taking it away are far reaching. And you mentioned it specifically, like there are lots of projects that rely on this.
[00:09:42] There's lots of proprietary code that relies on this. And that just because there is doesn't necessarily mean that people are willing to pay for it. The question is, is the pain of developing code that does something similar or forking the library or maintaining it? Is it such that they [00:10:00] wouldn't just do that overpay you?
[00:10:02] So there is a, you know, check and balance that has to happen. And I don't know if. If it is for a lot of these companies, but I know that there are a lot of open source companies that it's, or not even companies open source projects where it's questionable. So when you look at some of the Apache projects that rely on a.
[00:10:20] There's no monetary body behind it. And so how does that impact a project that is open source? That's trying to distribute that as a library and there was actually a a discussion today on the Apache mailing list about this, where light Bend's I believe it was a CEO. I have to go back and.
[00:10:37] Was talking specifically about, you know, well, maybe we can grant an exception to the Apache community. And so you start to then talk about, well, what about the exception to this other community or this exception that it becomes an unsustainable. Yes,
[00:10:54] Avi Press: but on the flip side, they, the way that they've designed this is so it's designed to target [00:11:00] the big, you know, the big companies that are, that are, you know, very effectively monetizing and using Akka to, you know, to better, I don't know, do distributed processing or computing or what, whatever it might be.
[00:11:14] Um, and so. The intent there, I think is very good in the sense that let's keep this free for everyone. Let's basically not impact anyone. That's not making whatever the threshold they set, like 10 million revenue or whatever that, that, whatever that threshold they set. And so I'm not like I'm not inherently against this notion of having exceptions.
[00:11:37] Like it, it. There's plenty of financial systems that are working today that are built this way. Like, you know, taxes in most countries, , you know, very, very complicated sets of, of exceptions and workarounds. And, you know, that builds a, a working system over time, as you slowly tweak and tune it. Um, but it's well that,
[00:11:59] Matt: [00:12:00] but isn't just, just a bait and switch really like, so let let's, let's be honest if you're going to.
[00:12:06] something like Akka today, and you're going to release it as a, under this license or under a non-op open source license. Will the adoption be the same? The answer's not, no.
[00:12:19] Avi Press: Yeah, no, it's certainly not. Absolutely not. Yeah.
[00:12:22] Matt: So is this a trend that we could be seeing where, you know, the, the, the, the growth model is a, get 5 million users of your product?
[00:12:36] B change the license.
[00:12:38] Avi Press: Yeah. That would be a very dangerous precedent for us to be setting just in general. Um, which makes me think that if, if we had a set of open source licenses that maybe were more amenable to having these kinds of, um, you know, making these kinds of business models more explicit on the onset.
[00:12:58] We would have [00:13:00] less of this kind of BA switching, um, because I thought about this topic a lot and the thing that is, I still can't really get my head around is, well, you know, if you are a light bend, um, what do you do? Like I get that. I, I, I think I'm, I'm inclined to agree this move to the BSL is ultimately probably going to, um, do more damage to life Ben's business than it is going to do.
[00:13:25] Good. But what are the other options that they really have? Like they already have these very lucrative partnerships with IBM. Um, they've taken, you know, they've taken VC money, so there's already kind of a little bit of the, um, the clock is ticking against them basically to figure out their business model as soon as possible.
[00:13:43] And I think a lot of people will say, well, shouldn't taken VC money. Like that was the, the death now of, of the company
[00:13:49] Matt: very early on. Well, but that that's the death now then of. Hundreds or thousands of companies that are out there right now. So I don't, I don't buy. Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:58] Avi Press: I don't buy that either of, not, not at [00:14:00] all, not at all.
[00:14:00] I looked it up in a zoom info, um, estimates Light Bend's revenue to be 28 million. Um, you know, I don't know how accurate that is. That's just what zoom, zoom info says. Um, but yeah, like. This is, this is a company that is very much generating revenue, but what we're seeing is it's, it's not enough.
[00:14:19] Um, which is, you know, I, I'm kind of in a position of, of thinking, well, what is the alternative? And,
[00:14:27] Matt: well, it it's funny. I saw this, I think I was listening to the like, like Sirius XM, the satellite radio, the other day. And some commercial came on for like, it was one of those commercials that. I, I never listen to anymore because generally you don't, you get the commercial free stuff,, who listens to the actual radio.
[00:14:47] But, um, I was on one of those stations. I think it was one of the sports stations. So in between they, they play whatever they're trying to pitch. And it was profitability is the new growth metric, , use our software to track your [00:15:00] profitability. And it. So are you saying that for the last few years, that profitability hasn't been your growth metric and the answer is it hasn't, it's been growth at all costs.
[00:15:11] And I think as the market has changed recently, the pressure to show not only growth from a overall user perspective, but able to do cost control and containment has started to move up the list of things you need to worry.
[00:15:28] Avi Press: Very very true. Um, I think, you know, as we, as we shift into a different kind of venture market where investors are just not as impressed by growth without the revenue being there, you're gonna see a lot of people just try to tighten the grip on the user base and try to squeeze as much money out of it as they can.
[00:15:46] Um, which I think is gonna put a lot more projects like this in a tough spot. And I think that. The open source space has seen a lot of funding in the last two years. Um, I think, you know, the, the general boom and venture investment into [00:16:00] tech, um, has really also very much been seen in the commercial open source space as well.
[00:16:05] Um, and so I think I. if we're starting to have this conversation, uh, now about companies like light bend, which I think I, I'm not sure when they raised it was a couple of years ago. Now, at least we're gonna start to see more and more discussions like this, um, over
[00:16:19] Matt: time. And I think that this is, uh, potentially an interesting, you know, next couple of years because of that.
[00:16:25] Right. Because you know, those invest. Either have to pay off or something has to happen with them. So it could be a consolidation via acquisition. It could be, you know, consolidation via, you know, attrition. It could be you know, consolidation or, uh, changing of models. And I think that's where the worry that I have is , just like all trends, people get behind a.
[00:16:52] But trends, fade. And I think that some people treat open source as a trend. It's the trending way to [00:17:00] build a software company. , I'm worried about how that's going to impact the future, because if everybody's thinking that, you know, oh, well, we're just gonna jump on the trend, but they're not going to necessarily follow through on what the Tenamants and the, the guide rails are for open source.
[00:17:14] Is this gonna go the way of Furbies? Is this gonna go the way of , , like, you know, Barney, the dinosaur, uh, like , the, the tele tubs, like all of these, these crazy, you know, fads in the past where. , they have lived for a short amount of time or even a long amount of time in some cases, but they fade into lore.
[00:17:31] And I do worry about that.
[00:17:34] Avi Press: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a very possible feature that, that we might be facing here. And I think that, , we are going to come to a point where we have to, I think as a community, make a little bit of a decision here about, you know, are we going to find more ways to help maintainers and project.
[00:17:51] Build their businesses or are we going to, kinda continue to, um, yeah. Have an open source. So [00:18:00] open source ethos that, that, um, is not really that, that, that remains at odds with that. Um, I think that there's a case to be made that we need to be a bit more inclusive into models that do have some kind of, , protections for these kinds of businesses, but maybe ones that have, I don't know, specific kinds of ways that, that are most compatible for doing, I guess what I'm trying to say is we may, we may find ourselves needing to make pragmatic trade offs,
[00:18:30] Matt: but why,
[00:18:32] Avi Press: let me,
[00:18:33] let
[00:18:33] Matt: me, let me, let me throw this out there.
[00:18:35] Okay. Like, because I mean, this is an interesting topic. Yeah. so trading off, okay. So, so with open source and, . Kind of the, the, the values and the core around open source. One of the, , the key foundational pieces is it's non-discriminatory right, right. So you can't say you can't use this in this context, and that is how open source was [00:19:00] built.
[00:19:00] Now, if BSL source is built differently, then everyone can jump on the BSL source bandwagon. Why do you need to change open source to encompass that isn't that just changing the term open source because people want to use it, use the name as opposed to kind of the philosophy and the guiderails and the rules.
[00:19:22] Like why can't there be like eventual open source or eventual source or, you know, there can be a, you know, a, a, a COSS , library or a COSS initiative where it's just, these are commercial open source licenses or commercial, you know, um, sort of open source licenses, whatever it is that defines a new definition.
[00:19:42] And, I, I talked with Bruce Perins on a podcast, not too long ago. And , his thing was, you can use whatever license you want, still call it open source because we named open source this thing. And now you're trying to change this thing that we named open source to something else. Call.
[00:19:59] You know, [00:20:00] Joe's license . So I get that, we need to potentially rethink some of the models, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to throw out everything that open source was built around. It just makes me wonder, are you choosing open source because you want the trend or you choosing open source because you believe in that's the best way to build.
[00:20:27] The project and help the Community.
[00:20:31] Avi Press: Yeah. And I think we, we probably have a lot of both, um, in the space practically. I, I think I don't personally doubt that the people at light bend really do. I mean, these are open source people, like they've been building open source for a long time and I, I don't think that they're.
[00:20:49] I suspect that their movement away from an open source license was probably a very painful decision for them to make. But one where, you know, they're, they're looking at their balance [00:21:00] sheet and saying, well, we gotta do something. Um, and so I think, the question becomes is, do you want to build an open source ecosystem that is a little bit more flexible, or do you wanna build an open source ecosystem that stays very rigid? for the sake of, of those ideals and, and I think maybe the point that I'm trying to make is we could potentially uh, find benefit in a more nuanced way of looking at these things so that, , I, I think for instance, if something was a hundred percent open source versus 99% open source, like what, what does that mean? What does that look like? Um, I, I was, I was in a discussion on Twitter with someone recently about like the label of organic food.
[00:21:42] Um, and. I think this is a very, a very easy analogy to make. In some ways, like there is a label that, you know, something is organic or it's not organic. And that's what a lot of people think that's actually not true. There's actually multiple levels of being organic. I think there were four levels of if something is, [00:22:00] you know, fully certified organic or has organic ingredients and there's like a whole hierarchy there and that's not to say.
[00:22:07] You just have an all or nothing thing. It can be a little bit more nuanced and a little bit more on spectrum than that. Um, which I think to the more classical open source definitions is very, very, um, at odds with how things have been historically ideas,
[00:22:26] Matt: I think maybe, but I think so, like if some of these companies said, we are, you know, made from open source components, but BSL licensed, I think nobody. I don't think there would be any controversy about that. Right. I think that, most people would be like, oh, okay. That makes sense. Like, yeah, they're, they're relying on open source stuff. And , most of it is, probably gonna be open source, but there are components that are, um, right.
[00:22:49] Ironically that's generally called open core, but we won't go there. Who wants to open that can of worms, uh, even if they are organic worms, uh, but, uh, [00:23:00] Yeah.
[00:23:01] Avi Press: Yeah. So the, the, the open source just has a very good, I guess. Yeah, there there's some degree where like the brand, the brand name of open source is very effective.
[00:23:10] I, you know, to, to, to, to your point of like, would, would AKA's adoption been the same? Had they kind of started with this model? And the answer is like an almost certainly not. Um, and so the question was, well, why is that, um, you know, for like a thought experiment, if you had. Say you had, you know, a, um, if, if, if they went to a kind of BSL model where it only impacted, you know, like one person or one company and no one else, like it's, it's, it's, it is exactly the same for 99.9 9 9, 9, 9% of people.
[00:23:46] Is it useful to have such a line in the sand where now we're gonna basically just completely, you know, Um, for all practical purposes, shun the project over this. Um,
[00:23:59] Matt: but what's [00:24:00] funny is it's I see it slightly different. Okay. And good. So yeah. Yeah. So, so welcome to AIE and Matt argue, um, you know, like countering points of view.
[00:24:17] Um, uh, so it it's, it's interesting because when you look at like, what is out there, it's like, look, you just need to leave it in the open space. Do whatever the heck else you wanna do. and it reminds me of, have you seen the HBO show? The anarchists? I haven't shoot. Okay. There's this scene like? So anarchists go to this convention.
[00:24:44] Okay. And it's an anarchy convention, right? So it's like all anti-government and we are gonna do whatever we want. We're gonna set our own rules. We're go. And they, they, they had this wonderful first conference. The second conference they get there and people are complaining. Well, they're not [00:25:00] following the rules.
[00:25:03] And it's like, but your anarchists, you don't follow the, like you don't, it's like in the definition you don't call the rules. Um, and so I think that there are always some expectations of some basic tenants of any sort of like, uh, you know, whether it's, whether it's a, a, a term, a, a move in license, you know, or, or a.
[00:25:25] A brand, if you will. And I think in this case, the idea behind it was, Hey, look from an open source perspective, we want open source to be available to all, you know, and if you wanna call it open source, it needs to be non-discriminatory and it just gets back to that. Right? You can't say Avi can use it, but Matt can.
[00:25:48] And I think that's where all of the argument comes into play. Now I'm not saying that AKA or Maria or couch base or Mongo, shouldn't like develop software and [00:26:00] shouldn't protect, you know, from what they perceive as their competition. It's just, it's, it's like, I want my cake and I want to eat it too. So I want to get the adoption and all the benefits of open source, but none of the liabilities.
[00:26:16] That's a great point. you know, and, and, and, and I think that if you are out there and you are building an open source company, number one, it's hard to be honest, you know, 99% of the companies out there that have that start around open source. They're not making money. Right. They're not, um, it's a really tough road and there's a lot of one or two person shops who focus on support or focus on these other things.
[00:26:45] And they're struggling. Like maintainers are not getting paid enough to maintain their code bases. And a lot of these code bases, it's the Nebraska problem, right? Where there's one guy in Nebraska who is maintaining the code for the entire internet. And if he gets hit [00:27:00] by a bus. Oh, my God, the internet is going to freak out and no one knows it.
[00:27:06] There's a lot of that going on. So there has to be better ways to help people, not only, you know, build. You know, uh, commercially viable products, but also businesses where they can afford to live, but also afford to maintain this critical code that's out there. And I know there's a lot of companies or foundations or things looking into this as well.
[00:27:29] Um, I've had some conversations over the last few weeks with. The folks over at open UK and open SSF about things that they're doing around the security space. So I know that there's work happening, uh, to try and, you know, fix some of this. And a lot of people say it's just a matter of getting the right amount of money into the ecosystem.
[00:27:48] Some people say it's, you know, working out those business models. Um, but I think we need to learn from one. Right. And I mean, that's part of the reason why we're gonna be doing this podcast going forward is to talk to [00:28:00] people and ask them from a business perspective, what worked, what was those, what were those scary points for you starting your business?
[00:28:09] Like what, what decisions did you have to make early on? And would you, you know, what, what what's driving your decisions now, when you talk about whether it's the current licensing, the future licensing and what does this look. Yeah, I'm very excited
[00:28:23] Avi Press: to dig into this with people. I think we're gonna hear, I mean, the, the, the more, the more I connect with people in the open source space, the, the less of a handle I have on unifying factors of everyone, it really attracts a very wide, um, a wide group of people, uh, solving a really, really wide variety of problems.
[00:28:41] Um, but I think. this, this discussion that we've been having about Akka I think is very, um, apt for the topic, because I think it's really just highlighting that this is a hard problem. It's affecting pretty much the entire, the entire space up and down, you know, the, the technology [00:29:00] stack, the, the company size stack.
[00:29:02] Um, and so I think that, uh, yeah, I'm just very excited to dig in with people and, and learn more. What's been working and, uh, what we can all do to make this better for people all, all, all, all over.
[00:29:15] Matt: Do you know what we're doing? Avi? We're, opensourcing the knowledge
[00:29:20] Avi Press: I like it. I like it. Very good. That's what we're doing.
[00:29:22] Matt: We're trying figure out how people are being successful and bring it to the masses. We, we wanna do that. And so if you're listening and you wanna be a guest, you want to sit down, talk to us. You wanna argue? I I'll argue with you about, you know, Open door stuff a will will argue with, with you. If you wanna team up on me, you can, if you wanna team up with me, we can do that too.
[00:29:45] um, happy to have arguing will continue for sure. oh, yes, yes. That's what we're here to do, but we're here to talk things through discuss, you know, what works, what doesn't it's it's an interesting space that we're in and we all love open source. We [00:30:00] wanna see people succeed in it. We want to give people the tools and the knowledge to be success.
[00:30:07] Avi Press: That seems like as great as a place to leave off as I can think of. Um, yes. So, yeah, it's just been a, this has been a great discussion and I'm really excited to continue digging in with all the guests that we have lined up.
[00:30:16] Matt: Indeed, indeed. Um, well thank you everybody for tuning in. Um, we hope you'll tune into the next episode, drop us some comments.
[00:30:23] You know, what topics do you want us to cover? Is there a. You know, area, whether it's metrics that we should be tracking, whether it is, you know, how to get funding, whether it's, how to, you know, look at, you know, what's the right contractor or, or license for you to use, what sort of, you know, support systems like anything around running an open source business, we wanna cover those topics.
[00:30:45] And we would love to hear from you. So go ahead, like subscribe, follow us, listen to us. We promise we'll, we'll make this exciting every week or as exciting as we can. Um, and we'll go from. All right.
[00:30:59] Avi Press: Cool. Good chat,
[00:30:59] Matt: [00:31:00] Matt. All right. Great chat Avi. And until next time, we'll see you later.