Author David Wills on Marilyn Monroe, Photography, and Preserving Her Legacy

In this episode of All Things Marilyn, Scott Fortner and Elisa Jordan welcome acclaimed author and photography historian David Wills for a thoughtful and deeply engaging conversation about Marilyn Monroe’s enduring legacy through the lens of photography.

Best known to Marilyn fans for his celebrated books Marilyn in the Flash and Metamorphosis, David shares the personal story behind his lifelong fascination with books, classic Hollywood, and Marilyn herself. From childhood memories of discovering old movies in Australia to working with original photographic transparencies decades later, his journey reflects a passion for preserving visual history and understanding the artistry behind iconic images.

Together, Scott, Elisa, and David explore Marilyn’s instinctive genius in front of the camera, her collaboration with photographers, and how her evolving photographic image shaped public perception. David also offers insight into his upcoming book Marilyn Monroe: Body and Soul, created as a monumental tribute for her 100th birthday year.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

• How David Wills first became fascinated with Marilyn Monroe and classic Hollywood
• Why Marilyn’s photographic presence remains unmatched in celebrity culture
• The artistic process of restoring vintage transparencies and negatives
• What sets Marilyn apart from other legendary screen stars in portrait photography
• The inspiration and vision behind David’s new book Marilyn Monroe: Body and Soul
• Why Marilyn’s legacy still resonates worldwide nearly 100 years after her birth

Throughout the discussion, listeners will gain a deeper appreciation for Marilyn’s intelligence, determination, and creative control over her image, qualities that continue to inspire generations of admirers today.

About Our Guest

David Wills is an internationally recognized author and photography specialist known for his visually rich books on film, fashion, architecture, and cultural icons. His Marilyn Monroe titles, including Marilyn in the Flash and Metamorphosis, are widely regarded by collectors and fans as essential visual studies of her image and transformation.

With more than two decades of experience working with original negatives and transparencies, David is dedicated to preserving photographic history and presenting classic imagery with exceptional fidelity. His latest project, Marilyn Monroe: Body and Soul, is a large format tribute volume celebrating Marilyn’s artistry, intelligence, and enduring impact.

About Marilyn Monroe: Body and Soul 

AUTHOR:  David Wills
FORMAT:  Hardcover with dust jacket
DIMENSIONS:  14 x 18 inches

PAGES:  288

MARILYN MONROE: BODY AND SOUL is a celebration and an appreciation of Marilyn—the human being, the woman, the actress, and the icon.

ATM Podcast: @allthingsmarilynpodcast
Scott @marilynmonroecollection
Elisa @la_woman_tours

Credits
Artwork by @marilynmexico
Soundtrack by @silver_technicolor

Transcript

Scott Fortner: Welcome to this episode of All Things Marilyn. My name's Scott Fortner, Marilyn Monroe, collector, historian, and owner of the Marilyn Monroe Collection.

Elisa Jordan: And I'm Elisa Jordan, founder of La Woman Tours, and I am also a Marilyn Monroe historian.

Scott Fortner: How's it going, Elisa?

Elisa Jordan: It's good,

Scott Fortner: We're back for episode two, season four, and this time we have a very exciting guest.

Scott Fortner: Well, I think all of our guests are very exciting, but I'm excited about this guest because we have Mr. David Wills with us.

Elisa Jordan: I think a lot of Marilyn fans are familiar with his work, even if the name doesn't ring a bell, although if you have his books, the name does ring a bell. He's written a couple of great Marilyn books and there's another one on the way this year.

Scott Fortner: his first two books on Marilyn are Marilyn Monroe Metamorphosis and Marilyn in The Flash. The first one was Metamorphosis and then Marilyn in the Flash.

Elisa Jordan: Yeah, I have both. And I think a lot of people do. They are very high quality books.

Scott Fortner: The thing about Metamorphosis though, is the images of Marilyn in that book are just really incredible and exceptional. And a lot of people I've heard over the years talk about that's their favorite Marilyn Monroe photography book.

Elisa Jordan: And he's done a lot of books as we talk about later. He mentioned some of them. And his Sharon Tate book is one of my favorites.

Scott Fortner: And he is got a new book coming out. It's called Marilyn Monroe Body and Soul, it's coming out this year. And it's gonna be a big part of Marilyn's 100th birthday year celebration.

Elisa Jordan: Yeah,

Scott Fortner: Shall we get to it?

Elisa Jordan: let's do this.

Scott Fortner: Here we go.

Scott Fortner: We're fortunate today to have Mr. David Wills author extraordinaire with us on the podcast.

Scott Fortner: Welcome David. How are you today?

David Wills: Good. Thank you very much.

Scott Fortner: We're super excited to have you here. So welcome.

David Wills: before we began I just wanted to say thank you to you guys for what you've been doing. You provide this nexus for the Maryland community, which, along with Greg Shriner of course, which I think is terrific.

Scott Fortner: Thank you. We appreciate that. We're pleased with the feedback we get on the podcast. A lot of people are emailing and expressing appreciation and following us online. Full disclosure, Elisa prodded me for years to do a podcast. in the pandemic, let's do a podcast

Elisa Jordan: saw a gap where we could, just slide in there.

Scott Fortner: So it took me a little while.

David Wills: really important. You may not realize it at the moment, but to be, to preserve these conversations I just think is extremely important on many levels.

Scott Fortner: Thank you. We take great pride in our work here, and we focus on authenticity and accuracy as much as possible because there's so much out there that is not accurate. for our listeners who may not be aware, david is very well known for his books on Marilyn that have been released previously, Marilyn, in the Flash and Metamorphosis, and these are exceptional books that so many people have and love and refer to on a regular basis. And we're gonna get to know David A. Little bit more today and we're gonna hear about his new book coming out.

Scott Fortner: And David, for our listeners, why don't you just talk a little bit about yourself and how you got into writing books?

David Wills: It was really interesting when I look back because most kids like going to toy stores, but I was actually obsessed with bookstores as a kid. And this is dating back to when I was maybe about five years old and I don't know what it was, I grew up in this small town in Australia and books were just my portal into another world, I remember I used to start making my own books. It was hilarious actually. for some reason they were all about UFOs and things like that. I guess I was really into kind of mysteries of the Unknown and the Lochness monster. And I would do these little books made out of butcher's paper and I'd do the illustrations and I'd write them, and then I'd staple 'em together and, show them to everyone proudly.

David Wills: And

Scott Fortner: Wow.

David Wills: it was so naive, but looking back, it was cute.

Scott Fortner: It's been a lifelong journey for you then.

David Wills: I guess I always knew what I wanted to do. I just always loved books, coffee table books. Of course, all books I love reading, but I just love coffee table books, and I always saw putting them together as an art form. Really.

Scott Fortner: you're very well known in the Maryland community for your Maryland books, but for people who may not know, what are some other topics that you've written about?

David Wills: I've done a lot of film related books a couple of fashion related books, the book on Forline, the Supermodel, and a book called Switched on Women who revolutionized style in the sixties. A couple of books on mid-century modern architecture. It's always something to do with preserving photography, really.

David Wills: maybe about 20 books now. I did, Frank Sinatra book.

Scott Fortner: Nancy Sinatra,

David Wills: no, it's just another book. Two Audrey had books,

Scott Fortner: Sharon Tate. One of Elisa's favorite books is the Sharon Tate

David Wills: Oh, was it really?

Elisa Jordan: Yeah, I have two copies of that. I have one that's signed by her sister,

Elisa Jordan: Deborah, I have another one to flip through.

David Wills: Yeah, that of course wasn't my book. It was, Deborah did that with Roman Lansky, but I was definitely the one who worked with Deborah to put together the photography and do all of that. So yeah I loved that book. And there was one called seventies Glamor. That was a fun one, but yeah, I've just been churning them out for about 20 years now.

Elisa Jordan: How did you develop an interest in old Hollywood?

David Wills: It goes back to being a curious kid who is always looking. Portals into other worlds. Maybe that's why I was interested in science fiction. I had a very nice childhood, had a very nice life growing up on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. But whenever I looked through books or whenever specifically I would see old movies that were just fascinating to me.

David Wills: I think probably because of the style and the clothing and the sets, it just made me realize there was a different world out there and I couldn't wait to get to it as a kid. So that was probably the main reason. I just loved old movies. And I remember as a little kid, my favorite was actually Carmen Miranda. And we had this thing in Australia called the Midnight Marathon. And her movies were always done at two, three o'clock in the morning. This little 7-year-old kid, it was crazy. setting the alarm and sneaking upstairs to the television in the living room to watch common Miranda movies.

David Wills: My, dad would come out and go, whatcha doing? You know what I mean? But I just, I loved it. It was important to me,

Scott Fortner: I love that this has been a lifelong journey for you.

David Wills: It was just a curious kid,

Scott Fortner: Yep.

David Wills: very curious who just wanted to go a little beyond what most kids were doing at that time

Scott Fortner: And when did you first develop the interest in Maryland?

David Wills: I tried to think of that. There was no real defining moment as such. I remember I was aware of her when I was about six because we had a dictionary at time that was illustrated. And I remember Mom and I would look through the dictionary and, you know, I'd learn certain words. under the entry for the word decolletage, there was the photograph of Marilyn and Un underneath it said, actress Marilyn Monro.

David Wills: And so that was my first memory of her, but I never thought much about it, and then I remember when I was about nine or 10, we only had three channels where we lived. my father said to me and he would do it often with different films. There's a very important movie on tonight and we should watch it.

David Wills: And I remember him doing that with The Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind, things like that. And it was the seven year itch. And so we watched the seven year itch, you know, it'll come as no surprise to anyone listening to this. So I was just enraptured by her magic. Whatever that thing is called, star quality.

David Wills: She just seemed to have it more than anyone else. I mean, In my opinion, and there was something magical about that, that really captured me.

Elisa Jordan: Is that kind of what drew you to her as opposed to maybe some other classic Hollywood figures?

David Wills: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Her presence just really resonated for some reason. And I found when I would watch her movies, I found her touching, in an emotional sense.

Scott Fortner: about her presence. A lot of times photographers have said often that she was a genius in front of the camera. And so from your perspective, what do you think they meant by that?

David Wills: It's such a complex question, it's so complex to think about. You can look at it, say from a nature versus nurture perspective. What I find fascinating about her is that she was born with this extraordinarily unusual face. It really was. When it scrubbed back, it was on the flat side.

David Wills: It was very round. She didn't, in her early career anyway, particularly have a strong bone structure. And she also had something I've never seen on another person for since. And that was, I dunno if you've ever noticed, she had these little jowls on each side of her mouth. Do you know what I'm talking about?

David Wills: They weren't dimples that they were dimple like but I'm not suggesting that these were flaws in any way, but she was able to take whatever that face was. And just add to it through makeup and create this extraordinary goddess.

David Wills: There's no other way to describe it. It was magical what she was able to do.

David Wills: Of course, later on in life the bone structure did come in. Of course, you've noticed like around 1962, she did have a lovely bone structure. But to me the magic was the way the light reflected off the face in cameras and in photographs to me was just extraordinary.

David Wills: And to me that's a kind of magic.

Scott Fortner: One of the things too that I've always heard from other. People that have assessed Marilyn, the way that we're assessing her is she was perfectly symmetrical. As facial measurements and facial structure goes, her eyes were perfectly, even, her ears were perfectly even. Everything was centered perfectly.

Scott Fortner: So she had this perfect symmetry, people just naturally feel that equates to natural beauty. So I always just feel like she had the perfect canvas.

David Wills: It did. But I think with her facial expressions, she wasn't symmetrical. I don't know if you've ever noticed, sometimes if she would laugh or smile, one eye would go bigger than the other. So that's not about as symmetry, that's just the way her face moved. I think. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, We've all seen the, the Andre de photographs of her completely scrubbed

David Wills: back. she had a very pretty face, but it was just something that she seemed to be able to add to in any way. She wanted to create whatever she wanted.

Elisa Jordan: A lot of photographers she worked with said that Marilyn really understood lighting and camera angles better than most actors and models. And I was wondering, since you've studied her photos so closely, do you think she was consciously shaping her photographic image?

David Wills: I think her technique in front of the camera was mostly instinctual. She definitely worked with photographers and learned a lot 'cause she worked with so many photographers.

David Wills: But in regards to your question, you can see the progression in her photographs of how she obviously. Looked at the photographs and learned what worked best for her and what didn't. For example, around 1951, I think it is, you see a lot of photographs of her smiling, tilted a little bit to, to favor her left side with the chin raised, you know, to do that classic Marilyn smile.

David Wills: And we've seen it in hundreds of photographs, but you don't see it before 1951. That's fine. It's something that she obviously thought this seems to work best in a photograph. And she stuck with it and she stuck with that probably until the, you rarely see it in the sixties and you certainly don't see it in 1962.

David Wills: Do you know the smile I'm talking about just that quintessential Maryland with the raised and just showing kind of one side in a way,

Scott Fortner: the early glamor shots.

David Wills: Yeah, it's really prevalent, between say 1952 to 1954 maybe. And she even did it, in press photos.

David Wills: It just works so well for her. But it's just interesting to me that you never see Norma Jean do it. And I think by the 1960s her style was a little more relaxed, and so her smiling photographs, including paparazzi photos is a bit more natural. It wasn't so extreme in that regard. And as I'm sure she went back to her more natural, showing a little bit of her gumline and things like that.

Scott Fortner: So as we talk about photos, you and I have worked together a lot over the years and I've been fortunate enough to be someone that you asked for advice and opinions. And I know that you take an awful lot of time with preparing your books and working on the photos and really reviewing and studying and having them be as perfect as possible.

Scott Fortner: And in that process is there anything that you see in images of Marilyn that separate her from other people, that other subjects may not have other celebrities or stars in photos?

David Wills: the number one thing that stands out to me is the variation of expression in her portraits. You find that all the great stars, whether it's Melina Dietrich or Gary Cooper or Audrey Hepburn, whoever they always find their one look and they tend to stick with it, particularly Dietrich, right?

David Wills: It was always, very similar lighting setup, and it was all about cheekbones. Always looked very stately. But with Marilyn's portraits are just so varied with expression. She smiles, she laughs, and some of them she's looking sensual. Other times she's looking innocent. Other publicity photos, she looks a little pensive.

David Wills: And I love that about her. There's so many different expressions that worked for her photographically,

David Wills: Which makes it fascinating to look at.

Elisa Jordan: Did she change the way that she looked or acted in front of a camera depending on who was photographing her?

David Wills: She definitely worked with photographers. I believe she met them halfway, according to what I've read. I would only know as much as you in that regard. But, for example say the way she worked with, you can tell that he would've been involved in that quite a bit. Or maybe one of the, it was it, Bab Simpson was the stylist on that. So I think she definitely worked with photographers in that regard. So to answer your question I just think, she was happy to collaborate. Part of it was her and part of it was what the photographer felt was best.

Scott Fortner: So here's an interesting question for you and It's difficult. But if somebody wanted to understand, or if they were seeking to understand Marilyn through photographs alone, what kinds of images would you recommend?

Scott Fortner: Which sessions with, which photographers would you recommend, and not necessarily as being the best, but maybe just to get a chance to glimpse authentic

Scott Fortner: Marilyn.

David Wills: Anything that shows her in movement or motion, that's just for me. Photos of her dancing or jumping or splashing in the waves, anything that shows her connection to nature and that exuberance she had for life. Despite the bad hand, she was dealt as a child.

David Wills: That's what I connect with when I look at photos of her and the ones where I feel like you can see the real Marilyn coming through. And secondly, news photos. I think that's why I wrote that book. I just love her in news photos.

Elisa Jordan: You're talking about Marilyn and the Flash?

David Wills: Yeah, Yeah.

Elisa Jordan: In regards to that book, it's about Marilyn and the paparazzi in those photos, what is it specifically about that angle that you are interested in?

David Wills: I just love news photos of her. I always felt that she was just as beautiful and dynamic in paparazzi photos as she was in her portraits. I won't name names, but so many stars are just a big disappointment. You look at them in their Harrell photos or their beautiful kodachrome portraits of the forties and fifties or whatever, and then you see the news photos of them at the same time.

David Wills: And they just didn't look as dynamic. Marilyn just looked exactly the same, in street level paparazzi photography. She did in a, a beautifully lit set in a studio. that always fascinated me. It was almost like she made any photograph a work of art just by being in it really.

Scott Fortner: It's like she never took a bad photo.

David Wills: No.

David Wills: Not at all. And she was just unique to me in that way. ' Once again, I don't like to name names 'cause it's not fair. But maybe another actress who I think always looked beautiful in her photos was Bridget Bardo, perhaps. She always looked great in her paparazzi pictures.

Scott Fortner: Did working on that book change the way you saw Marilyn in any way? Or was it the reverse that you took it as an opportunity to create a collection of those photos and what you saw with the paparazzi pictures?

David Wills: It was a pleasant book to work on because I feel, despite what a lot of people say, I, I think the press was very kind to her

David Wills: Around 1960 to 61. They weren't, as, they really turned on her for a period, but she just always seemed to relish posing for the news photographers. And I guess in regards to the book changing the way I saw Marilyn, I, worked very closely with Robert Wagner and Pat Newcombe on that book.

David Wills: Just with speaking to them they humanized Marilyn a lot more for me. I never had any interest in her private life, reading the books about, her marriages or affairs or anything like that. I never had any interest, so therefore I never, thought that much about the human Marilyn.

David Wills: So in speaking to those two people, suddenly she became more real to me. You just forget that she was a flesh and blood human being at times.

Scott Fortner: a lot of people I think forget that she's turned into something beyond being flesh and blood and having been human.

David Wills: Wonderful, but it's almost crazy.

Scott Fortner: Yeah, for sure.

Elisa Jordan: So your other book about Marilyn Metamorphosis looks at Marilyn's transformation through photographs. How did you approach telling Marilyn's story visually?

David Wills: I was always fascinated by the way Marilyn was able to completely morph herself into a different version of herself every three or four years. You had Norma Jean and then you had the style period, and then you had that great superstar period from say 52 to 55. Then she looked completely different in the late fifties, and then of course, by the time you get to 1962.

David Wills: you know, You look at that Marilyn, and you look at Norma Jean and they're just two completely different people. To me, there's just no trace of Norma Jean left in 1962. So I really wanted to highlight that in the book, that kind of metamorphosis and the way she changed, which once again, to me was a big part of her artistry and her creativity.

David Wills: for me, Marilyn is as important as a photographic subject as she's in films, and I think that most people would agree with that.

Scott Fortner: She started with photographs, so I think the first love affair was with the still camera, not the movie Yeah.

David Wills: there was no pressure when she was modeling or doing photographs like say with Milton Green or Richard Abbott on something like that. She could have fun with it and be herself, maybe she didn't have to play a character or remember lines. So she seemed to really enjoy those moments.

Scott Fortner: and she had total control.

David Wills: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure in some cases, maybe if it was being done for a specific reason as I said before, she would collaborate with photographers, but generally she could just be free.

Scott Fortner: So were there any photos you discovered while working on your two prior books or maybe the next book that we'll talk about in a bit that really surprised you?

David Wills: Yes. It sounds really odd, but in looking through hundreds of photos thousands and thousands at this point, how many photographs there are of Marilyn licking her lips?

Elisa Jordan: Yeah.

David Wills: I don't know if it was a nervous habit, it must have driven her makeup artists, particularly Whitey Snyder, of course, crazy instead of a film.

David Wills: But there's just so many photos of her with her tongue out or licking her lips. Even Queen Elizabeth talked about it in a quote, how she'd looked off all her lipstick

Scott Fortner: Oh

Elisa Jordan: Yeah.

David Wills: that kind of jumps out at me. I know it seems like a silly thing to say. Then it does jump out at me.

Scott Fortner: It is true. There are lots of photos of her, with her tongue on her top lip licking her lips. Yeah,

David Wills: Yeah, and like I said, I dunno if it was a nervous habit of hers or just a habit or what it was, but she certainly did it a lot, that's for sure.

Scott Fortner: yeah.

Elisa Jordan: After all these years researching Marilyn Monroe, what is something about her that genuinely surprised you?

David Wills: With all my books, I've been very fortunate to be able to scan things from original negatives and transparencies, and particularly the color transparencies from the fifties. If you scan them with today's quality of scanners, you can blow them up and you can see every detail of the face.

David Wills: You could even do, what's it called, iridology. It's so clear. something that was a surprise to me, and, is that she had a small piece of enamel missing from the tooth on the left side that I noticed many times. But obviously it's a very small detail, but one that was very interesting to me and I believe it must have happened in about 1951 because I never seen the photographs taken before then, but I do afterwards.

Elisa Jordan: That's one of those things that humanizes her.

David Wills: It humanizes. Yeah. But also, to me she had the most beautiful smile in history, the most beautiful set of teeth in history. So I almost don't even like bringing it up that, there was that floor in the tooth. But to the point of your question, that was just very interesting to someone like me to be able to see that kind of detail.

Scott Fortner: when we're looking at photos and you're thinking about what to include in your book project, for example, your prior books or this book that's coming up that's being released this year, what is it that makes an image compelling enough to include? What are you looking for?

David Wills: Well, Getting back to the original negatives and transparencies, first and foremost I'm always interested in images that come from originals. Particularly the negatives and transparencies, because I feel that unlike modern digital, an original negative or transparency contains a little bit of the subject soul primarily because the emulsion was created from the same light that came from the subject.

David Wills: And you don't, it, it's hard to explain it. It's almost like we've taken a step back with digital. I can't explain it, but I'm sure you've noticed it in not so much in the fifties, but in the 1940s och Chrome. Photographs. I know we can change anything these days with Photoshop and ai, but there's an honesty to those photos because they were so difficult to retouch the color codero.

David Wills: there's a realness to them and a vibrancy of the color that's almost a little bit hyperreal that I kind of love. It's like reality, but a tiny bit more. And I find that very interesting in a photograph. But other than that, any photograph that shows a little insight into Marilyn's thought process or work ethic, I always find very interesting.

David Wills: There's a wonderful Magnum photo of Marilyn on the set of the misfits, and she's pouring over these contact sheets with one of the magnum photographers, and I think she's got a little pencil. I can't remember now, but it's just the intensity with which she's studying the proof sheets. Just shows you how seriously she took the, the creation of her image and how strong her work ethic was in that regard.

Scott Fortner: Yeah, I've seen that photo. And you don't see Marilyn's face. It's from the top looking down, and her and the photographer are looking at the photos, right? It's that image.

David Wills: But yeah, I guess she's just taking a break in between shooting and going through the proof sheets that I remember. I think it was Larry Sheer talks about that, how diligent she was and how professional she was in regards to photography and editing her pictures.

Scott Fortner: And then of course, the Bert Stern photos. We have the evidence that he published of the photos that she went through and didn't want to have published, but he ultimately published. Do you have an opinion on that publishing the photos that she had scratched out and didn't want to be made public?

David Wills: That makes feelings about it because. I don't think the photos that she scratched out she necessarily hated. I, I've looked at a few examples of it and I think what it is that there were two very similar shots and she crossed it out because she much preferred the other shot. There's one in particular that I've looked at that I think is a beautiful photograph and I've gone over it and over it to think why would she cross this out? Why would she not like it? Everything's perfect and she looks really beautiful. And when you actually look at that book that complete last sitting, it's next to a photo that's very similar that I think she just preferred the expression. So I do have mixed feelings about it, but from an artistic perspective, there's something cool how she etched part of her personality. Emulsion, the transparency, and we still have that today a little extreme in Bird Stern's case, the orange pencil and the hairpin

David Wills: Kind of crossed out so violently.

David Wills: It certainly fascinating.

Scott Fortner: I think you make a really interesting point that just because it's scratched out, it doesn't mean that she hated the photo. A lot of times I observe people making comments online, why are you posting this photo?

Scott Fortner: She hated it. She scratched it out. But another perspective is really, she could have just preferred a different photo that was very similar to that one. It's not that she hated it, she just liked the other one better. That never occurred to me.

David Wills: Yeah. And of course, I can't speak on her behalf, But that's all I can think. I can definitely see a couple of examples, I can totally see why she wouldn't want that. Like she's mid expression or something like that.

David Wills: A number of examples I studied and that's all I can see is that it was very similar to the one next to it, and it's usually the one next to it that she didn't cross out is a really great picture.

David Wills: Like it's a real win. So you can tell she thought, oh, I'm gonna cross this out 'cause I wanna make sure they use that one because I look fantastic.

Elisa Jordan: You know, You're touching on something here in that there are so many collaborations with photographers, so many photos. She is one of the most photographed women in the world ever.

Elisa Jordan: When you're working on a book about Marilyn Monroe and you have all of these images to choose from, how do you still find images that make her feel fresh or reveal something new about her?

Elisa Jordan: Because if you're a Marilyn Monroe fan, you probably have a lot of pictures of her. Either, photographs on your wall, or posters or books or whatever. There's a lot out there, and I've always wondered how do you repackage something like this?

David Wills: I just do the photos that I want. I mean, This is gonna disappoint some people maybe, but my favorite photos of Marilyn are the standard Fox publicity pictures taken by Frank P and Jean Cornman. I know that sounds really boring, but it's what I love. The stuff that we see on coffee mugs. They're my favorite photos of her, the bathing suit, pictures swinging from the rope. And they're just my favorites. And I think I probably overuse those in my books. Perhaps the only thing that's different about them in my books is that, like I said before, I was fortunate enough to be able to scan most of them from original transparencies and restore them and make them look really good.

David Wills: So at least they're preserved. But I know what you mean. The I, like I said before, regarding anything that shows her work ethic intrigues me. Other photos that intrigue me is anything of her kind of looking more like a real human being. There's some wonderful photos of her sitting under a Christmas tree.

David Wills: I believe Milton Bre took them and, and also anything of her looking a little annoyed or disturbed or distressed, I do find interesting because it's a side of who you don't usually see, but I always say to myself would Marilyn be okay with this photo, which she wanted in the book? And so for that reason, I don't put them in the book, but to me they're very interesting., My rule of thumb when I do the book is I try to aim for 30% maybe of unpublished images or things that are new and unseen or a little bit different from the standard, and then 70% kind of what I would call the classics or things that have been seen before. But in 2026, that's not easy to achieve.

Elisa Jordan: What's the process of securing the rights to reproduce some of these photographs in a book like this? Because. Some of them are public domain, some of them are copyrighted, some of them were owned by the studio, some of them by the private photographer. How do you go through and untangle all of that?

David Wills: Yeah, you just do it one by one. In some cases you hope for the best, I try to lock everything down as much as I can, but I work with all the estates and photographers. I'm not the photographers anymore 'cause they're all gone unfortunately. But, once upon a time when I, started doing metamorphosis maybe in 2009, a number of them were still alive and you could just deal with them directly.

David Wills: And so that was very easy. I remember Richard C. Miller was a lovely guy and Bert Stern was always particularly helpful and generous to me. He was a lovely person. I liked him a lot. And of course you guys had known George Barris. I found all of them very pleasant, and I call him the great Larry Sheer because he, he is a great photographer for many reasons, beyond the Maryland world, of course, for his body of work is so impressive.

David Wills: But, he's been very generous and easy to work with and wonderful. So I'm grateful to all of them because when you do these books no one's getting rich off them. You do them for the love of the project and because it's your passion, and I think they recognize that and they, they just want to help you create the best book possible.

Elisa Jordan: A few years ago you were at Greg Shriner's house and you were talking about your book Metamorphosis, which had just come out at the time, and you were talking about restoring these images and I don't know anything about any kind of technology. So what is the process like to go through and restore and explain it to me like I'm five because I literally have no idea of how these things work.

David Wills: Were you actually there that night?

Elisa Jordan: I was,

David Wills: Were you really? That's, that's

Elisa Jordan: you signed my book.

David Wills: Really? That's gotta be about 15, 16 years ago now,

Elisa Jordan: Is it that long?

David Wills: Yeah. It would have to be. Yeah.

Elisa Jordan: my goodness. That's embarrassing. I just outed myself for being as old as I am.

David Wills: Oh I think we're all older than we used to be. Right?

Scott Fortner: We are.

David Wills: Yeah, to answer your question, to me, when I do a book. That's my biggest passion is restoring the photographs. A lot of 'em don't need restoration. You'll scan something from an original negative it may need some cleaning, so I'll clean it.

David Wills: But that's about it. When it comes to the color photography, that's a different story. Marilyn her career started kind of at the end of the Kodachrome period, which is a real shame because Norma Jean is so preserved in this beautiful lush kodachrome that to this day, the color hasn't budged.

David Wills: I'm sure you know the Andre de Deni and the Richard Sey Miller and the Bernard of Hollywood, and they're just such gorgeous sumptuous color. And then right on 1950, around the time she was turning into Maryland everything changed to OC crime. And unfortunately, ectochrome was a cheaper, faster film stock, and it just, over the decades it deteriorated.

David Wills: The best things to get is with her classic box portraits and pinups, they used to take the original ectochrome and they would produce copy transparencies and they would send those all over the world, for magazines or whatever to reproduce. And for some reason those kind of cheap copies maintain their color.

David Wills: It's always great if you can get a hold of those. The original ROEs just faded away to Magenta. So if I can only get hold of a Ectochrome scan that's been magenta, then yeah, I have to do a whole number on it. Sometimes I'll work for a week on one photograph. You have to mask all the different areas, work on the color values separately clean each individual section separately.

David Wills: A lot of the time I'll work on it for a day and then I'll put it away for a day because you can become too close for it. You can wake up the next morning. You can think, what was I thinking? This looks ridiculous. Recently I have taken advantage of some AI programs. I hate to admit that, but some of them really do help.

David Wills: Particularly there's a few images I received that were completely riddled with mold. It was like a green mold that can happen if transparencies aren't stored properly. And I just thought that this image is dead. It can never be resurrected. And anyway, I have a friend who's a lot more versed with AI than I am, and he just fixed it.

David Wills: In about five seconds by running it through a program. It didn't change the derivative image at all, but it just completely got rid of all that mold and the little kind of spiral squiggly patterns. So a lot of people I know are down on ai, but I think if you can use it for purposes like that it's terrific.

Elisa Jordan: I think it's okay if you're using AI as a tool like that, like you would Photoshop. What a lot of people are objecting to is when you create a caricature of someone and they're walking around doing things like they're alive.

David Wills: Oh yeah. Obviously that's not for me. I wouldn't do that in one of my books. But listen, if they're having fun and if they're saying up front that it's, an AI homage or whatever it's their business. Marilyn should have a say in these things probably.

David Wills: I don't know. I think as long as they're flattering and they're nice, I don't know, I think we have other things to worry about in the world.

Scott Fortner: Let's move to your new book, David.

Scott Fortner: Can you tell us about this book that you're working on?

Scott Fortner: What's the title? Just share the details.

David Wills: I, of course, wanted to do something for her 100th birthday, and the title is Marilyn Monroe, body and Soul. The reason I wanted to do the book is I felt like she has given so much to the world in terms of her artistry and obviously so much happiness to millions of people over the decades that it just, it always made me very sad in recent years that certain books and documentaries and movie projects only highlight negative or sensational aspects of her life.

David Wills: And, a lot of the time just basically making things up or telling lies. And I would notice on social media how perhaps a lot of the younger fans wouldn't know the difference between what was true and what wasn't. And I felt that in particular was extremely damaging to her legacy. So what I wanted to do was create a special book that focused on only positive and inspirational aspects of her life and career.

David Wills: The book's kind of on the large side. It's about 14 by 18 inches about 300 pages. So it's quite a hefty book, but, I did wanna do something fairly monumental for her birthday. And it's a series of essays that I've written interjected with the photographs.

Elisa Jordan: And that makes it a little different than your other books, doesn't it?

David Wills: Yeah, I, I've always been a bit light on the writing with the other books. Particularly Metamorphosis. I just wanted the photos, I had about, I can't remember what it was, 20 pages of what I wanted to say, and then I let the photos speak for themself. In the Flash was a bit more than that but this current book has a lot more writing in it.

David Wills: you know, A lot of it's things that we already know about Marilyn that just say we would, and a lot of Marilyn fans, but I think the world at large wouldn't be aware of them. I wrote different essays, for example, on her love of books and literature. Her passion for acting and how she studied acting and how that was important to her.

David Wills: I wrote one in particular about her, just about her generosity and her philanthropic work. And as you guys know, there was so much of it. The fact that she launched her own production company in the 1950s at a time when actors really did that.

David Wills: And so I wanted people to know about these things. I know that a lot of people do know about them, but I wanted to highlight them and focus

Scott Fortner: Did you uncover any new or rarely seen photographs that you've included in the book?

David Wills: Lots of them actually. So

Scott Fortner: Uhhuh.

David Wills: I think there'll be some treats for people

David Wills: There's a lot of photographers you'd know in the book. there's photos by Richard Abdon, Stein Milton Green, Bruno Bernard, Sam Shaw, Larry Sheer Fleet Halman, Elliot Earlwood, y Arnold, John Floria, many other photographers.

David Wills: So I tried to include the ones that meant the most to me, even though they've been seen many times. But I just hope that maybe what I can make a little different is. The quality of the way that they're printed. And in other cases, I've tried to look for things that hadn't been seen that much or hadn't been seen at all.

David Wills: I just hope people like the book. It's, I suppose it's my ultimate love letter to her. I doubt if I would ever do another book on Marilyn at this point. I think I've said everything I can say

Elisa Jordan: a particular favorite photo that's going to be in the new book?

David Wills: I do. And once again, it's gonna bore you, it's like a classic portrait you've seen a million times of Marilyn. It's from the How to Marry Millionaire Portrait era. Like she is it's a black background. She's wearing a white purse. All she's smiling with that three quarter smile. Do you know the photo I'm talking about?

Elisa Jordan: I think I do. Yeah.

David Wills: Yeah, it's one of her most famous ever., In the 11th hour of doing this book, I was able to get the original photographic transparency and scan it. It actually surprisingly didn't take much restoration. It was in fairly good shape, but it's one of her most famous Fox portraits.

David Wills: And it's just, the quality is extraordinary. It's never been seen like this before. I'm just excited from a personal level it's been my favorite photo of Marilyn since I was a little kid.

Elisa Jordan: I think sometimes we take for granted the Fox Studio portraits, but Jean and Frank, the photographers on staff at Fox were pretty talented. Wouldn't you say?

David Wills: Yeah, they're extremely talented. They were working guys, they work for the studio and it's interesting but when you look at Those gentlemen back then, particularly the makeup artists and the photographers and a lot of the behind the scenes guys they were trained during the silent era.

David Wills: just the way that images were crafted back then is so different from today, I think. And the role photography played in building that individual image that was created for the public it was almost like there was a science to it. But for me the cornman and the P photos are, the classic Marilyn at Hermo, Marilyn put it that way.

David Wills: A lot of the other different photographers, they of course added, their own unique talents to bringing out certain parts of her personality or her image, but they're the ones that, to me, are just my favorite.

Scott Fortner: So back to the book,

Scott Fortner: what are you hoping or wanting readers to take away from your newest book on Marilyn?

David Wills: First and foremost, what a smart and shrewd person she was. And I never thought that was fair that she'd be seen as a victim because she's not. And as much as she was sweet and kind, she was also a very tough person. And she was definitely a fighter

Elisa Jordan: After spending so much time studying Marilyn Monroe, what do you think? She really was beyond that public image.

David Wills: beyond the public image. I believe like all of us, she was someone looking for love and to be loved for all the right reasons. That's something every human being wants. No matter who you are, whether you're rich or poor or famous or not famous, everyone is looking for that. And I'm not sure if Marilyn ever found it.

David Wills: And I, I find that really heartbreaking when I think about her. There, there must have been times when she would've craved just for simple, unconditional hug and probably couldn't get it. Particularly toward the end of her life, I would imagine her circle of trust would be so small at that point.

David Wills: So I often think about people who can't get affection in life, and I feel that she was one of those people. I don't think she could just call someone up and go out on a date. Do you know what I mean?

Scott Fortner: Totally. Yeah. You just reach a certain level of stardom and celebrity that it's impossible to lead or live a normal life after a certain point.

David Wills: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I feel very sorry for her in regards to that.

Scott Fortner: What do you think the biggest misconception is that people still have today about Marilyn?

David Wills: Like I said before, that she wasn't smart and that she was a victim. That always bugs me. She, we all know that she struggled with certain mental health issues, like a lot of people do. And what is amazing about her is just what she was able to achieve is extraordinary. Really con considering her background.

David Wills: She just, wasn't having the best life in day one, but she was extremely determined to improve herself.

David Wills: And I think that's the most commendable thing about her is her strive and determination to make herself a better person.

Elisa Jordan: Along those lines, do you think there's one photograph that truly does capture who she is?

David Wills: I couldn't say specifically., I, I don't, think there's one photograph that really captures who she truly was. That in my opinion would be impossible. But I know that in regards to her performances, my version of the real Marilyn seems to shine through the closest and the seven year itch in the Misfits.

David Wills: And I think it's because of her sweetness in those films. And also both of those characters had a sense of being loners, just trying to get through life. Obviously the girl in the seven year rich in a much more lighthearted way, but you know, you sort of have to think about who she was in that film.

David Wills: She was just this sweet entity who was all by herself in the big city. Just trying to make it as a model. And there was just something about that character that. In regards to who I felt Marilyn probably was as a person. I guess to add a third to that could be, and I dunno what you guys think, sugar cane and some like it's hot, but I find sugar cane to be very sad and very fragile.

David Wills: And so it's probably accurate, but not one of my favorites.

Scott Fortner: Yeah.

David Wills: for that reason I find some like it hot, a bit hard to watch.

Scott Fortner: I find the misfits really hard to watch.

David Wills: I know why you find it hard to watch, but for some reason I find some like it hot harder and I dunno why she's just a little heartbreaking in some like a hot thought.

Scott Fortner: Yeah.

David Wills: sugar came to me, seems like someone who's not gonna meet a nice end. She's not gonna have a happy life.

David Wills: And I can't say the same for Rosalyn in the Misfits. It didn't strike me as much. She seemed more of a survivor, more of a battler. She wasn't afraid to beat up Clark Gable, when she didn't agree with what he was doing, that kind of thing.

Scott Fortner: She sure wasn't.

David Wills: Yeah. Shed some gut.

Scott Fortner: So this June 1st is her hundredth birthday and it's a hundred years. Why do you think Marilyn still matters today?

David Wills: There's one main reason for me, and that's because. However you wanna define her magic, whatever that is. And I always say it's indefinable. She continues to bring joy and happiness to millions of people. And at this point, with everything going on in the world, that's really all that matters.

Scott Fortner: Well Said. Put

David Wills: I had a question, for Lisa.

Elisa Jordan: Yeah.

David Wills: I wanna know, if you were, trapped on a deserted island and you could only have one Maryland film to watch for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Elisa Jordan: Probably gentlemen, prefer blondes.

David Wills: Yeah, that's a good answer,

Elisa Jordan: What about you?

David Wills: gentlemen. Prefer blondes, Scott.

Scott Fortner: There's no question. That's one of her most classic roles, obviously a classic film. I would choose Niagara or Don't Bother to Knock.

David Wills: Wow. Interesting.

Elisa Jordan: I thought you were going to say how to marry a millionaire.

Scott Fortner: That is one of my favorite films for sure. But if I could only ever watch one forever, it would be. I think Niagara or don't bother to knock because I just love that side of her that she's really showing up in a different way.

David Wills: Yeah. Niagara would be top three for me for sure. There's so much I love about that film.

Scott Fortner: So David, when does the book come out

David Wills: I'm going for June 1st, that's all pending. The color proofing process. It's going okay at the moment. A couple of glitches. But it will definitely be out, around that time. If I don't exactly make June 1st it'll be not too long after that.

Scott Fortner: and where will people be able to buy the book?

David Wills: At the moment it'll be on Amazon and it'll be on my website. I started a small publishing company called Man Wills, so it'll be available on those two places.

Scott Fortner: David, I wanna close by wishing a happy birthday,

Scott Fortner: I'll share with our listeners that we're all three February babies,

David Wills: Yeah, it's amazing. When are you,

David Wills: Lisa?

Elisa Jordan: I'm February 13th, so I'm an Aquarius.

Elisa Jordan: Scott's a Pisces. He's February 22nd.

David Wills: okay, but I've gotta guess that you are considerably younger than me and Scott.

Elisa Jordan: It doesn't matter. It's all about February.

David Wills: That's true.

Elisa Jordan: So are you a Pisces or an Aquarius?

David Wills: very diplomatic. I'm a crisis.

Scott Fortner: Yep. David and I are a day apart.

David Wills: Yeah.

Scott Fortner: David, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a fascinating conversation. I've learned so much about your approach to forming books, writing books, the art, and the act of preparing photography for books. It's been fascinating. I've learned a lot.

David Wills: Yeah. Appreciate it and thank you again to both of you for everything you're doing

Elisa Jordan: Thank you for being here.

Elisa Jordan: Thanks for tuning into the All Things Marilyn podcast., It's our goal to reach as many people as possible with high quality content and the truth about Maryland.

Scott Fortner: If you have any questions, comments, feedback or suggestions for future episodes, you can email Alisa and me at All Things Marilyn podcast@gmail.com. you can follow us on Instagram at All Things Marilyn podcast. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and we'll see you next time on All Things Marilyn.