Film Journal Podcast
George (Film Journal) and Ryan (Cinecrisis) dig through film history one oddball pick at a time—hopping from cult horror to forgotten blockbusters, art house to trash fire (sometimes in the same episode). Whether it’s dissecting Hammer Horror, roasting the latest Studio Flop, or revisiting 70's exploration fare- they bring sharp takes, deep trivia, and the kind of banter only good pals can pull off!
No film school snobbery. No hot take clickbait. Just smart, funny conversations for people who like movies and think they actually matter.
Film Journal Podcast
2024 Year End Wrap Up: Anora, Nosferatu, The Substance and More!
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What a year 2024 has been for cinema! In this deep-dive episode, we unpack the most compelling, controversial, and conversation-worthy films that defined the year in movies.
We begin with "The Substance," examining how this body horror masterpiece transcends simple commentary on Hollywood's beauty standards to explore the psychology of self-destruction. Demi Moore's fearless performance deserves special recognition for tackling a character struggling with identity and aging in an industry that discards women past their prime.
Robert Eggers' "Nosferatu" sparked heated debate among horror aficionados. We discuss why changing Count Orlok's iconic appearance undermined the film's purpose and how it compares to other vampire classics like Coppola's "Dracula." Despite its visual beauty, did this remake justify its existence?
"A Complete Unknown" offers a refreshing take on music biopics by focusing on a pivotal moment in Bob Dylan's career rather than attempting to chronicle his entire life. Timothée Chalamet's transformation into the folk icon is nothing short of remarkable, capturing the artist's determination to evolve despite fierce resistance from the folk establishment.
Ridley Scott's "Gladiator 2" proves that epic historical spectacle still has tremendous power on the big screen. The Pedro Pascal/Paul Mescal colosseum battle delivers one of the year's most riveting sequences, while Denzel Washington's deliciously villainous performance steals every scene.
Clint Eastwood's "Juror #2" stands as a potential final masterpiece from the legendary director. Nicholas Holt delivers a career-best performance as a juror who realizes he may be responsible for the crime being tried – creating a morally complex thriller that asks profound questions about justice, family, and personal responsibility.
What films defined your 2024 cinematic experience? Which performances will you remember years from now? Listen to our passionate breakdown and then share your own favorites with us online!
Year in Review Introduction
Speaker 1what a year it was, man.
Speaker 2What a year it was truly yeah, 2024 is in the history books. What a year for the movies, uh. Would you say it's better or worse than 2023?
Speaker 1I would say, just right off the bat, right off the jump, it seemed like it was a pretty good year and I don't know if that's because I actually took a. I actually went out to the movies a lot more this year than I did previously, so I saw more um, but I saw everything I enjoyed. Like I looked at our list of things we'd be covering we have a guy in here that's excited to hear our take on the Apprentice but you know, I thought everything was pretty solid. I saw a lot of interesting stuff I probably wouldn't have ordinarily watched and I'm excited to start talking about some stuff from the latter half of the year. I know last time we met in the summertime we discussed some summer movies like Fall Guy, and what else did we talk about?
Speaker 2We talked about the Fall Guy Challengers, Civil War, and then we went back in time to talk about oh targets, yes In that discussion films I'm I mostly liked.
Speaker 1I think when we get to our top tens there'll be a few from earlier in the year, but for the most part, uh. What do you think, man? I mean you wanted to talk about kind of an overall feeling of the year. I mean anything newsworthy that you thought happened this year, anything interesting, what do?
Speaker 2you think. I think, overall, it was a much better year than previous years. I kept track of how many times I went to the movies this year, for instance, and I went well. I calculated 42 movies that I saw in the theater this year, which is a big step. Yeah, no-transcript one to two, if not three movies that you're like very interested in going to see. And in previous years I've looked at it and you're like I don't want to see anything that's playing or I've seen it all already. So I think there was a lot more to offer this year, both in terms of, like you know, the regular studio um blockbuster output, plus the oscar movies that have been coming out. You know, later in the year, later in the season, there's been a lot to get excited about they were spaced out better.
Speaker 1I thought, like you know a lot of stuff that was it's getting oscar buzz or consideration. The Substance, I think, is a movie that they didn't expect for that to happen, you know, I mean there was. So there's a lot of like fun, nice things, kind of like in what was it? 92, when Silence of the Lambs it came out in February ended up carrying, you know its momentum throughout the entire year. So, um, not to say that any of the films are on par with that one or that they're not, but you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I agree, it's, it's been. I've been still been catching up with a few that have been stragglers. For instance, the substance which you just mentioned. I did get to see that just recently because it was re-released in theaters. I mean it's on streaming, but I mean, do you really want to pay? Do you want to take a gamble and pay $25 to rent a movie? When you have the pass, you can go for free and if it's good, it's good If it's not, well, didn't pay anything.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, you did pay your subscription fee.
Speaker 2Well, you paid your subscription, but you've earned that money back at this point by seeing two other movies.
Speaker 1True, the only movie that.
Speaker 2I have not seen yet that I am still very much anticipated for is the Brutalist.
Speaker 1I agree I haven't seen it either. I'm looking for a block of four hours that I can find somewhere right or convince my wife to go see it, but the word from a lot of people that I trust has been very poor, really. Yeah, that's a big waste of time, that it's uh devoid of substance. So it's sort of an ayn rand copycat in aesthetics, only with no real vision or anything to say. So I don't know. I I will probably see it. The trailer was just so impressive I wanted to go see it.
Speaker 2You know, but how many times have the critics been wrong about? Well, not wrong, but we've disagreed vehemently. I mean, I think megalopolis would be a perfect example of that, where everyone was just hating on this movie and yeah, I mean I know we both enjoyed it a lot yeah, I agree, I I did enjoy it a lot.
The Substance: Body Horror & Self-Loathing
Speaker 1I've recommended it to people who have not enjoyed it. But uh, no, that was a movie I'd go to bat for and if we get further down our list, I think we had an idea of like four or five movies we're going to talk about as the end of the year wrap up and it just kind of grew and grew. So we're going to start out before. We definitely want to touch on our um the substance nosferatu, a complete unknown, a nora gladiator 2, and that just sort of you know keeps going. I guess we could talk about Jorah, number two, we could talk about a different man, we could talk about Megalopolis a bit if we wanted to, but I suppose let's just get started on the substance. I'm really excited to hear what you thought about that one dude.
Speaker 2Yeah, I really liked this one a lot.
Speaker 2I didn't love it completely, I thought there was a few problems, but overall I think it's a very, very interesting film that definitely deserves re-exploration again and another subsequent viewing, because I think there's a lot here that is beneath the surface, if you will. But if you want to look at it on just the very, very surface, cosmetic level, obviously people are going to talk about the aspect of it that it is, you know, a commentary or a criticism on, you know, hollywood's obsession with, or not even just Hollywood, just our entire society and culture around the world, of obsession with, you know, the ridiculously high standards of women's appearances and beauty and such and such of women's appearances and beauty and such and such. But I think you pointed out an interesting, different angle on this when I read your comments on Letterboxd. There's a lot more to it than just that. It's more about the duality inside of your own psyche too. How much do you subconsciously hinder yourself or hurt yourself, whether it be on purpose or not on purpose? And that's definitely a very fascinating aspect of this movie.
Speaker 1I think that's the way, more interesting way to relate to this film is to think of it that way. Not only does it sort of cross any sort of gender or cultural divide because that I think everybody can relate to that everybody at a certain point feels like there's an evil half to themselves, or not even evil, but, um, a portion of themselves that if they could exercise would perhaps make their waking life more enjoyable. Do you know what I'm saying? Or your, your square life, you know. I mean, everyone's woken up one morning and hung over and thought, oh my God, what the hell did that guy get me into today? Right, and why, you know I need to suppress that person. But then, when you are that guy at 10 o'clock on a Saturday night, you're thinking fuck that responsible guy. Like he can go, go away, like I'm having a good time right now. So that was the kind of how I related to it.
Speaker 1I don't know what that says about me, necessarily, but that's the angle. And it doesn't have to be, you know, necessarily in addiction terms. It can be just in interpersonal terms perhaps. Maybe you have a side of you that's mean or petty, or cruel, that's, you know, sabotaging your personal relationships, you know, and I thought that's that this film was much more of a sort of a meditation on that duality. I mean, I was thinking about that especially as I watched David Lynch's Firewalk With Me Twin Peaks movie that he made in the 90s, which is the whole idea of that entire film and to a certain extent the show Twin Peaks is that everyone has a dual evil nature, right, that's constantly sabotaging or or secretly wreaking havoc on your life, you know, and stopping your true self from being the best it can be.
Speaker 1And I think the true self is the Demi Moore character of the older woman. By the way, I think that the movie you can't lay the blame of, like a patriarchal society at the feet of everything, because she has opportunities, you know, to make a life beyond being a young person and mature into old age somewhat gracefully by accepting the date with the sort of square school of armish peevish guy and she decides not to because there's sort of a hatred of herself. Now I suppose a feminist might say well, that's an, it's a hatred that's been internalized by a patriarchal society. I suppose right. But I suppose if you have an external hatred that you're internalizing, it is up to you ultimately to banish it from your mind, right To defeat that sort of nagging feeling of hatred, you know?
Speaker 2I think that's a great point, because as kind of monstrous and silly as the Dennis Quaid character is made out to be in the movie, as the quote villain, you know, he's this kind of ostentatious, overly aggressive TV producer who says you know, hey, you've hit 50 years old, you're on, you're on the way out, you're no good anymore. I mean, that is a that is a natural reflection of how how our society is built. Unfortunately is a that is a natural reflection of of how how our society is built, unfortunately. But is he really doing anything that is so egregiously bad? Does he? Does he do anything to her that is otherwise, you know, horrible or or or so bad? I mean, he's just he's, he's answering to his bosses and he's trying to get what's what he needs to get done done. Um, so I think it portrays that as an interesting length too. However, um, the other aspect of it I think is is kind of interesting is how it correlates to other films that have had similar messages along uh, throughout the years.
Speaker 2The one that um immediately kept coming back to me was uh, seconds by um oh yeah, john frankenheimer yes, by frankenheimer, which has a very similar motif and message behind it which is more, I think, more poignant in that one about can you restart your life, can you go back or not, and this one is more about kind of a fatalistic point of view.
Speaker 2Um, and then the other thing is I think I had mentioned this to you before and I wanted you to watch it, but I forgot to tell you about it again was the Batman the animated series episode Feet of Clay, which features the origin of Clayface in the animated series and it feels very, very similar, in my opinion, to this movie. Really, an actor with a disfigurement, matt Hagen, becomes movie where an actor and an actor with a disfigurement, matt hagan, it becomes addicted to a like a beauty cream, cosmetic beauty cream called renew you, I think, and it allows him to mask his hideous appearance. He becomes addicted to it to the point where he has to do, you know, hits for a mob boss and then becomes overdosed in it and turns into a hideous, you know, horrific monster clay face, similar to the ultimate end result in the substance.
Speaker 1There's no such thing as a free lunch, right? Yeah, that's the ultimate right. I mean, I enjoyed the film aesthetically. I thought that maybe was a little long. I thought that it had a great sense of humor about hollywood culture, and not just to the extent of their treatment of like starlets right but more like the things that they do, that the vapid entertainment they provide us with, like pump it up, which was the which, by the way, I was just in nashville and I was in a bar of sorts and they were playing the song pump it up. It's transcended the film they played it in the club area.
Speaker 2Yes, so that was exciting to hear um well, it's to get your life all, to ruin your life, which she does over being this. You know, tv morning tv, daytime, dance aerobics instructor is kind of the irony ironic cherry on top of it all, is it not right?
Speaker 1Exactly. It's not even for for real fortune and fame.
Speaker 2It's not to be a glamorous movie star in, you know, high profile movies. It's not to be a a, you know, glamorous TV anchor. It's not, you know, being a, a model in a a, you know, or a runway model or something like that. It's doing this kind of ridiculous jazzercise stuff on TV and, you know, obviously the most poignant part of it is that, you know, demi Moore is actually, I believe, 62 years old, not 50 years old as the movie.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, can play roles that are appropriate for older actresses and so on. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1I think you could have made this same film with an older man, with maybe a Celestris.
Speaker 1DeLorean type, who he's not getting cast in the action movies anymore, so he takes the substance and becomes the new hot star. I think you could absolutely. I mean, midlife Crisis is like a sort of quintessentially male experience that's well known, right, which is basically what she's having here. And the other thing too is that she has a beautiful home, she's wealthy, she has prospects to continue on beyond just this idea of youth. And I also think it's a movie sort of about nostalgia too and how that can bring you down and suck you dry of like going forward in your life yeah, you're only pointing to the past for forever.
Speaker 2I've got to recapture my, my youth, when I was the the it girl on tv, you know yes, stylistically I thought the film was excellent.
Speaker 1I loved every time we saw dennis quaid. He was always in some sort of uncanny wide shot.
Speaker 2There was clearly or ridiculous, zoomed in crunching the shrimp at lunch.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, he's in like this wide angle weird fisheye lens when he's at the urinal, which I thought was.
Speaker 2Directly, always looking into the camera.
Speaker 1He was very game for this. I don't know if you have any words on Reagan. I think maybe you've discussed your opinion on Reagan earlier.
Speaker 2He was excellent. He was excellent in Reagan but, as I mentioned I think that was when we did the Twitter space or whatever it was Reagan was just not a good movie in just terms of its construction and writing and just the way it presented itself narratively. I think it was a very, very poor movie, but I don't want to get sidetracked in that I think we didn't talk about some of the most important parts of the substance, which is the makeup effects and the body border element, which is superb.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. I thought a lot of it was really terrific. The stuff that was the best was the subtle parts, right, the subtle decaying of her body. Obviously of it was really terrific. The stuff that was the best was the subtle parts right, the the subtle decaying of her body. Um, obviously it's grotesque when she takes a substance and her eyeball multiplies. Eyeballs are a very vulnerable place, you know. Every time, anytime you do something with eyes, it always gets me a little freaked out.
Speaker 2But um, I thought the stitching up, the stitching up of the empty body shell, to be the most disturbing part there Just having to keep and they zoom in very, very closely to piercing the skin to sew it up. You know, obviously this is a fantasy movie and you know obviously, but there's no instructions that come with the substance and I found that to be very annoying that they come.
Speaker 1There was instructions. They were very cryptic, but they were simple and you know it's. They didn't tell you what to expect, right? No, no, no but like shouldn't?
Speaker 2I wish they had. Just I wish they had dumped some like giant 900 page manual on her and she had to like flip through that, and then she just like throws it out and just injects because, well, you know what it was like any bargain.
Speaker 2We can't do basic, you know, medical um procedures on themselves, like injecting insulin subcutaneously or whatever, and this lady figures out how to not only intravenously inject the substance into her but then do all of that the bone marrow aspiration to, to you know, rejuvenate herself, etc. It's just I found that part very comical, in my opinion well, it was a sort of a deal with the devil.
Speaker 1I mean, he's always very vague. When he makes you promises, right then it bites you in the ass, sure?
Speaker 2sure, I just. I just found that to be completely like I was laughing to myself because it's so ridiculous. The most fantastical aspect of the movie, in my opinion, was the fact that she was able to do all this for herself, not that she generates into a new version of herself and decays and all that.
Speaker 1I thought it was a very funny movie and I found myself laughing a lot Along with the movie. I thought it was a lot of fun. Maybe most people wouldn't think that because it is rather grotesque, but when we get to the end and she's hobbling- around as a giant mongoloid kind of like RoboCop mutant at the end.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it loses its credibility, in my opinion at that point, yeah, I thought that it could have actually transcended it and become sort of a David Cronenberg kind of fly. It was too nervous to be actually sad and gripping and it instead became this kind of comical farce where she goes out there as this big troglodyte thing and starts trying to speak as her body's falling apart and then she sprays blood all over the place. I mean, I guess that's sort of the vengeance on the fickle audience portion, but I thought it could have been portion but I thought it could have been.
Speaker 2My problem with that is that you ultimately at least I didn't I did not feel sympathy or empathy for her by the end of the movie.
Speaker 2You know she not to say that she did it to herself, which she did, but she continuously continues to hurt herself. And you can say that Jeff Goldblum in the Fly does the same thing, although he is being driven mad and has a completely different personality as the film goes on and when he does realize what's happened to him the final moment when Geena Davis has to shoot him. You feel genuine sympathy for this person, for this for this disgusting puppet.
Speaker 1Yeah, putting the gun to its head. And you're like you're. You're miserable, you're so sad, you're moved. Yes, there's.
Speaker 2There's no such moment in this film and I I think it's intentional that we're not supposed to feel sorry for her, that that was my takeaway.
Speaker 1That was the thing that you know. I guess I can appreciate it from that level. Okay, there's a grand guignol finish, blood sprays everywhere, everyone's laughing and then she disintegrates into her Hollywood star, right, yeah, okay, sort of. It was almost very Twilight Zone kind of like all right, next crazy, you you know macabre scenario.
Speaker 2But I think that you could have elevated the movie to maybe something that was really sort of retching and touching, had it been more subtle the destruction of her body, right agreed and I think I think the movie also hurts its credibility at the end when she ultimately you know that she's going to inject this, the initiator, the activator, a second time, even though it tells you you should only activate once, and there's leftover serum there which is not a good design.
Speaker 2There's a design flaw there. Obviously it's intentional for the movie, but the fact that she had to go home in order to get that inject herself again comes out mutated and then hobbles back to the New Year's Eve studio and no one notices that she's this disfigured monster. Obviously that's the design of the movie then, to have her do this thing. But I think it hurts its credibility and we've tried to be a very kind of quote realistic film for the most part very science fiction, procedural aspect to it. There's rules that we follow. There's, you know, cause and effect routine here, and then all of a sudden you know she's like half dead, she's like fainting, her teeth are falling out, she can barely eat, and yet she manages to go all the way home and Jack do this thing and come back as this monster to perform on TV. I think if they just had her mutate in the studio it would have been a much more.
Speaker 1And shorter, it drags a little bit feelable extension of what's going on here. Overall, I thought it was a terrific movie. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2I knew you would terrific movie. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1I knew you would too, I thought. For me, the most unrealistic part was when she makes the do-it-yourself DIY closet to hide the body. That was a little much. That would be Not that women aren't handy, but that was a very professional work. That was seamless.
Speaker 2Also, I think it's shown to or they intentionally did this to say there's discard for the other half when you are before you swap, you would keep the fact that you would keep your other unconscious body on the bathroom floor naked a week at a time it says something about her, her character or her self-worth at that point too, isn't?
Nosferatu: Vampire Expectations vs Reality
Speaker 2it true, yeah, yeah only after like two or three weeks does she decide to move the other body into that closeted space and put a blanket over her, a towel over her, and show some dignity to your body. It was kind of a strange take.
Speaker 1This is sort of a dicey area, but we didn't talk about the sort of I wouldn't say gratuitous but very plentiful amount of nudity and sexual imagery in the movie, especially surrounding a certain Margaret Qualley, who's gorgeous, I honestly didn't think that there was that much.
Speaker 2I heard from other people that there was tons and tons of nudity and sex in this movie, and yes, there's a lot, but I didn't think it was compared to like Onora, for instance. I thought this was way less in my opinion Did you really yes.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2My final. If you want to comment on that, feel free to.
Speaker 1No, no, no, I just I didn't know, like you know, if this I felt like there was a little bit of an 80s, you know, pat on the head to the audience and that I do feel like a little bit of it was purposefully titillating Right To where it wasn't. It wasn't trying to just say you shouldn't enjoy this, you know. I thought that it was a sort of tongue-in-cheek like hey, we all like hot women on the screen, right, don't we? I mean, let's be real. So in that way I sort of appreciated it. It wasn't a scolding sort of like nudity or it wasn't objective necessarily. It was very objectifying. I thought in a sort of like I don't want to say welcome way, but we don't get to see that a lot in movies anymore, right, I agree.
Speaker 2My final thoughts on I think Demi Moore deserves a lot of credit here. This is a. This is a rather thankless role, I think, from her. It's a. It's a risky role to take, for sure, I mean she has to go she has to go nude and just to be, you know, disfigured at different points and it's a thankless role because you're discarded for half the movie in favor of a younger, more quote, more beautiful version of yourself.
Speaker 2So she does a great job in the movie and it would not hold with. You know, I think without someone at that skill level I don't think it would hold, but it does. It deserves a lot of credit there.
Speaker 1I agree she did a terrific job Because, yeah, I mean, there's an easy way here where the 1980s exploitation version of this film would have obligatorily cast the older part but really been interested in the young part, right, and that's not the case. They both get equal time and the character of Margaret Qualley's character is the much less interesting character of the two of them, right, even though they are the same person. But yeah, overall, great premise, a lot of fun, good execution, worth your time. Do you want to talk?
Speaker 2about? Was this movie trying to channel a lot of Kubrick imagery as well? Did you pick up on that?
Speaker 1The bathroom looked just like the fucking Overlook Hotel know very long. How about the?
Speaker 2hallway with the orange pattern carpeting, especially when it gets drenched in blood at the end and look, I, I can appreciate the kubrickian imagery because the man was a fucking.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're right, exactly, the man was a genius. We all love him very much. I was just sort of shocked that they went for that when it was so obvious. I wonder. I wonder if, how?
Speaker 2most of the modern audiences that have never. Maybe that's a good point, maybe this, yeah, I just you know, maybe and that's going to be our, that's going to be our main thing when we get to know sferato about. Uh, oh, you know we weren't impressed, but I think a lot of no, a lot of younger people, and that's going to be our main thing when we get to Nosferatu, we weren't impressed. But I think a lot of younger people were impressed by the movie.
Speaker 1Yeah, you want to just move into Nosferatu? We had a wonderful conversation about this on the phone which would have made an excellent podcast, but I guess we'll just dive into it. We have Boss Baby here. In response to our title of this video the Best of 2024, he said the answer is Nosferatu. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2Respectfully disagree, yeah, no.
Speaker 1I heard that you were down on this film. Now, I'm an old school horror guy, but I know that you are much more inclined to enjoy the classic horror movies, the universal monster films et cetera. And so when you said you didn't like it, I figured it was out of some sort of purity um pursuit, but I found myself very lukewarm on the film. I don't want to say that I didn't enjoy it, but uh, I I well, maybe I didn't. I mean, like, the more I sit about and think on it, stew on it, the more it leaves my mind and the more negative impression I have of it. Just, even even though my initial impression was very lackluster, go ahead. What were your thoughts on Nosferatu?
Speaker 2Yeah. So I deeply, deeply wanted to love this film so much. I mean, you have no idea how much I was anticipating and looking forward to to this movie because, like you just said, I'm a huge admirer of, you know, vintage classic horror films especially. I mean, my bread and butter is Universal Classic Monsters. Obviously, this is based on, you know, the German FW Murnau silent film Nosferatu, which is not, exactly, you know, the same as that. However, I do have a deep admiration for that as well.
Speaker 2It's not my favorite silent classic horror film by any means either, but I thought the entire idea of remaking that version of Dracula in the modern era was fascinating. Now I think part of the reason is I'm not a big fan of Robert Eggers here as a director. His previous film, the Witch, I found to be abysmal, and maybe that's a hot take, but I just could not stand it at all. So this was just a very deeply disappointing movie. I think a couple of things Pacing is just horrendous in this movie. It takes forever to get going to do anything of interest or value. We spend a lot of time with the wrong characters in my opinion.
Speaker 2Nicholas Holt is one of the better characters in this movie, I thought, and he is quickly discarded for a large chunk of the middle to back end of the movie until he comes back and we're left with Aaron Taylor Johnson for a large portion of the movie. Who's kind of you know unnecessary or irrelevant character who he and his family turned out to speak cannon fodder for the vampire.
Speaker 1Well, he's only unnecessary in that they don't end up doing anything with him, and they could have so.
Speaker 2Therefore it renders everything that became before it sort of null right he's, he's just um, him and his family are just bodies to be accumulated for for count warlock. I mean, that's, that's really what it is, um. But I think the other major hindrance to this movie is as much, as as much as they're trying to recreate the, the feel and the atmosphere of this. You know, silent, black and white. It has that, you know, very grayscale sepia, um tint to the movie that almost makes it feel black and white. You're doing all that, the beautiful aesthetics, aesthetics, the you know kind of inspired by German Expressionism, and all that to then change the and alter the very distinctive and specific look of Count Orlok, which is the most important iconography from Nosferatu, to change that into a, you know more realistic um vampire was deeply just kind of uh, you know, it was like heresy in my opinion I don't want to sound like your critique is coming from a, from a place of purity of like oh, they ruined the look of count orlock.
Speaker 1You know the point is the only differential factor between nosferatu and dracula. They're the exact same fucking factor between Nosferatu and Dracula. They're the exact same fucking story, except Nosferatu has less to it. Right? The only differing factor is that Count Orlok looks like a weird freakish. You know tooth bald guy. That's the only difference. So the only reason to remake nosferatu is because you want to have that look for your dracula vampire. But then they didn't do that. So what the fuck was the point of all of this?
Speaker 1he in fact looks just bizarre like I thought he just looked like some kind of like cossack fucking dude from, like you know, 18, 19th century russia. I was like I don't, you know what's. Okay, I guess he's kind of scary. I guess Zoomer women have found him to be somewhat Attractive, you know. So maybe I'm off Base.
Speaker 2Like I, like I previously described to you. I mean, it looks like if you see those old timey Pictures of what glad the impaler Looks like, because that is the inspiration For Dracula, and it's a Tiny, the old timey picture, old-timey pictures of what Vlad the Impaler looks like, because that is the inspiration for Dracula- the old-timey picture yeah the old-timey pictures, that's what he looks like he's got the giant mustache.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2He's in different stages of decay throughout the movie, but he was not an imposing or threatening image. His image, his visage was not very disturbing and I think when people look back to you know, I think what 99.9 of the audience who's seen this? But we have never seen the, the silent classic. Fine, but people know what that is. Otherwise, this has no cachet, this has no market value. People have heard the word Nosferatu or they've seen it in popular culture and they know that distinct image of what Count Orlok looks like, as opposed to you know, I've talked about it at length before, about the vampire informal evening wear as my, you know, preference and this is you. This is a welcome change. I'm happy to do that too. But why change this? Why have this be the only change that you make as opposed to everything else?
Speaker 1Yeah, right, yeah, because if you wanted to change it for the better, you would have made it closer to the story of Dracula, which is better and has more things going on Right, whereas this one is like Dracula, but with less right. It just it was to me. I had someone, a friend of mine, call me and say he was so scared and you know, man, I was riveted and the entire time I was bored. You know, not like I'm, you know, some desensitized dude, but like they've done it before. And it's called Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula and it's sumptuous and magnificent and visually stunning and has a lot of variety and great characters. And it's more interesting and better done than this which, when we were following Nicholas Holt and he's walking around and he goes to the gypsy place and you know he's, he's walking down the, the, you know the path and the wolves, and I'm just like get to the fucking point, especially when he's sitting in.
Speaker 2Those are the better scenes in the movie.
Speaker 1I've seen it, man. I've seen it before and it was done better, and like this time around, there's less to seen it before and it was done better and like this time around.
Speaker 2I just there's less to the story here, and there definitely is, if you look at, like Todd Browning's Dracula from 1931, I mean very, very small portion of the movie is set in Transylvania in the beginning and it's the meat of the story is when we get to England and what does Dracula do in a different environment? This is, and the original notes broncos like this too in terms of it's set. All in, almost all of it is set in transylvania and on the ship, and then the climax is in well, this is in germany, I believe um, I guess it's in germany.
Speaker 1It looked like england to me. Everyone had a british accent. I don't know what the difference was besides that they had some german writing on some right yeah, but I I felt like you lose a lot of.
Speaker 2The stakes are decreased because of that. I mean, you want to see the vampire in the different environment that allows him to wreak havoc.
Speaker 1They do that at the end of the movie, but you're so fed up and disgusted by, you know, having to sit through all this junk that I just didn't care anymore yeah, I mean, I would say there are some things that I thought justified the movie's existence from the perspective of, like, at least this guy came at it from a different angle. So I think we talked before about how the original dracula is basically about the perils of horniness, right? I mean, it is a meditation on the idea that our young heroine really wants to have sex, uh a lot, but like can't because she's hemmed in by victorian, you know, uh niceties, and she really wants to bang her husband but can't, right. And then this her husband's a perfectly nice guy and great, but this dracula is just a sensual being of, like pure sex and pleasure and you know, even though he's evil, it's hard to resist, right, whereas this movie, I think it justifies its own existence because there's a difference that the Dracula is is not a stand in for lust, he's more of a stand in for, like sexual shame. You know, yes, we, we talk about, you see, in the beginning of the film, how she's had sort of this like long distance psychic relationship sexually with, uh, with count orlox, and she was a child, right, um, and this is inhibiting her from having healthy relationships. Now, right, this is sort of, on a grand scale.
Speaker 1An idea. You know that perhaps I think people can understand this past relationships informing your current one, whether it's oh, my other partner did this better, or whatever. Or you know just this idea, especially in nicholas holt's character, where he has this sort of um, understandable, male inferiority complex around. Okay, is this, count orlock, better at have fucking my wife that I am, which is why, in the moment where she's sort of possessed, she really he's like let me have sex with you right now and prove to you how much better at, uh, this I am than count orlock, right, I mean, that's like the whole point of the scene, right, you know, that's whereas in, whereas in the original dracula story. That's not the point. The point is like defeat your lesser urges, right? Yes, so that's one reason to exist. The other thing, too is, had they gone the way of the original Nosferatu, I think I can kind of picture what that would look like, and it would be much more like a Hello, I'm Nosferatu. You know, he would be very, very. What do they call that?
Speaker 2Twink style you know he would have been a very Twinkies kind of dude.
Speaker 1Yeah, and he would have been a very twinkies kind of dude, yeah, and he would have been like I, like you, but I'm evil. Whereas I thought that it was different and interesting that the count orlock was like this hyper masculine, hulking like mustachioed older man, like that is definitely different, right, and it's been interesting to tap into the zoomer brain to see all the horny posting from them on twitter about count orlock. I mean, it's been that we can do a little psychological profile in a generation just by grabbing some tweets. But you know what?
Speaker 2you could have done to counter that? You could have had him show up first like, just like in Coppola's Dracula, that he goes through different iterations and, um, you know, metamorphoses, um, throughout the picture. You could have started him out as the classic count orlock from mernau and then, after he, you know, feasts on the blood of you know some beautiful young woman, he starts rejuvenating and becoming the buff.
Speaker 2You know bill sarsgaard version that we see by the end of the movie, and I think if you wanted to have that sexual uh theme to run through the movie, as they clearly did, that might have been a way to have your cake and eat it too. You know what I mean yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1And what did you think of lily rose depp, our lead character, or haunted woman? Which, by the way, the other message of this movie too, is that female sexuality is a plague on society and can only like? I mean literally right. The fact that she wants to have sex with count orlock brings a plague up and like, throws society into absolute ruin, and the only way count orlock can be defeated, but from her insane libido, is to die. I'm not endorsing this view, but this seemed to be the message of the movie, right?
A Complete Unknown: Dylan's Artistic Evolution
Speaker 2Again, another very fatalistic movie. You know, again I thought she did a fine job. I wasn't particularly impressed by anyone in the movie, other than I found Willem Dafoe quite entertaining, and I found the other guy who played the other doctor to be quite an interesting character too. And Nicholas Fulton but Lily Rose Depp, she's fine. I wasn't blown away by anything particular that she did here.
Speaker 1And in fact I was just bored by the end of this movie and wanted it to end. And you know they got to find a different way to do exorcist style possession scenes, cause I've seen it he's coming, you know, like writhing around in the bed. It's like we've seen it, man, I've seen it. You know I don't.
Speaker 2I will say at least, thankfully, the movie does not impose or introduce like modern cadence into the dialogue. They speak, for the most part, believably like they're living in the 19th century, so at least they did. They're not speaking like it's, you know, 2025.
Speaker 1Well, I don't say I'd say that about the production design too, or the costumes period, wise, but with the production design is like you could tell that somebody, whoever the set director was, they made beautiful sets, right, but but for whatever reason, like the, you can't see him.
Speaker 1The modern, the modern preference is for like incredibly long lenses for close ups, and then we blow out everything in Boca in the back and like he walks into this little gypsy hotel or you know, in Right, and I'm sure somebody spent a better part of a portion of their life, know, organizing this place, making it period, accurate, putting interesting things in it. But the cinematographer is like, no, here's what we do, there'll be three colors in every shot, blow out the candlelight, so everything's just a misty fog and we'll just do a real, real tight close-up of nicholas as he walks around and it'll be disorienting for the viewer and it's like, why does everything have to look like that? Coppola's film was so grand and magisterial and there was so much variety. And Dracula's a wolf and now he's a bat, and here's some beautiful women in silk, very revealing dresses, running down at night. It's very Gothic, it's beautiful, it's such a sumptuous viewing and this, just like you know, everyone's praising that. Oh, it looks like it's in black and white.
Speaker 2I don't okay and that's like we said. But how many of these people have never even seen a black and white movie before? And so it may like the appeal of thinking they're watching a black and white movie without actually doing it and being able to say that they they liked it like that. I mean, sorry, I don't sorry, I don't want to sound elitist or snobbish or you know, like a prude here, but I mean, it's like Zoomer's first vampire movie.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2I wasn't impressed at all here.
Speaker 1Agree, so I'll skip this one. Yeah, I'd say skip it too. Do you want to talk about A Complete Unknown? Now here we have a Zoomer that's a star, a shining star, Timothee Chalamet, who we all love. Can we agree?
Speaker 2Yes, and I love this movie. This is a great one. I really enjoy it a lot.
Speaker 1He's a terrific actor. Also, just from a Hollywood movie business perspective. I bet that the press run for this movie will will be written about in a book somewhere as as a shift in hollywood marketing. Um, it's interesting to to me, I know we. I think we've heard a lot in the media about how now president donald j trump made quite a run, uh, by going on everybody's podcast. Timothy chalamet hit the same circuit. I'm going to go on with theo vaughn. I'm going to go on with all these podcasts and talk about talk for an hour and a half and then people maybe will like me and want to go see my movie like I've never seen that before. Right?
Speaker 2I think we'll see more of it will we see more of it? Maybe he's uniquely talented to be able to do that. I don't know that most other celebrities or actors.
Speaker 1Do you think that they can? They can do that. They're gonna have to get to do that because, just like every politician's gonna have to figure that out too right.
Speaker 2Can I go on a skill set that most politicians don't have?
Speaker 1can I go on a show and talk for an hour and a half out the dome?
Speaker 2I mean you see some of these, uh, some of these celebrity interviews that they do the round when they do the circuit where the people just, you know, come in and out um of different. You know they just rotate in and out, round robin, they're still doing it. I mean they ask the most ridiculous questions to the most vapid, inane questions. So I would welcome what you're saying. I think if we can get kind of a more substantive appreciation for, for you know, what's going on here, that might be better we had it for a while the way.
Speaker 2Why they do the other way, is because every local outlet, every online outlet has to have their little piece that they clip, you know so oh gross, who's going on, you know?
Speaker 1go blow, or who's. Who's going on these websites? Right, I mean, we had this in the in the 90s and early 2000s. It was called inside the actor studio, or charlie rose, where I mean it was truncated, it was for tv, it's not an hour and a half, but I mean. Then that just went away and we, we got back to entertainment, weekly tidbits and who cares? You know, timothy chalamet went on college game day and made five accurate picks that's what our attention spans are designed to.
Speaker 2You know, to have that tick-tock, you know kind of dopamine rush, quick moment yeah, but I don't know, is that true anymore?
Speaker 1I mean, people are obviously willing to listen to podcasts that are two hours long I think we have um very divergent.
Speaker 2If you look, if we had a, if we had a graph here, you'd see two different um peaks. You know there are extremes in terms of reaction. So we have the people that can only handle the tick-tock level you know 10 second clip, and we have people that can handle the three-hour interview and there's nothing in between that might be a.
Speaker 1That might be an accurate way to put it. Um, what did you think of a complete unknown?
Speaker 2and I actually actually appreciated it more as time went on. When I walked out of the theater, initially I kind of had this weird lukewarm reaction. I certainly enjoyed it a lot while I was watching it and then at the end I had this kind of taste in my mouth Because it really makes Bob Dylan out to be a total jerk in the movie and I couldn't get over that for a while and then I started thinking about it and I started watching a lot more. He doesn't do that many interviews in the course of his life, but I watched the 60 Minutes interview that they did with him maybe 20 years ago at this point. I watched the 60 Minutes interview that they did with him maybe 20 years ago at this point and it kind of solidified my understanding that this movie is pretty accurate in terms of its depiction of him.
Speaker 2He is kind of a jerk, he's a contrarian. It works. It's worked a lot for him in his life, but it kind of rings true and I found that kind of revealing in the end and it made me appreciate the movie a lot more. Um, I think the question I have for you is is this a typical or atypical biopic?
Speaker 1because I'm kind of torn between both I think it's atypical, but this is the correct way to do it right. One of the best biopics I've ever seen in my entire life and one of my favorite maybe one of my favorite movies ever I because I just based on the sheer amount of times I've watched it is um jobs, the film by uh, you know the guy who did slumdog millionaire, what's his name?
Speaker 1danny boyle, danny boyle yeah, danny boyle's movie and the dude from west wing yes, and it's incredible. I love that movie or am I no, no, no the ashton kutcher. One is terrible because it's a traditional. It just gets like let's go through his whole life and blah, blah, blah this one is it's.
Speaker 1It's two hours, three segments, three days out of steve jobs, life, launching different brands and is, and they do a terrific job of weaving everything important that mattered about his life and like giving you this kind of treatise on who he was in a very by only using three days. It's not the whole fucking you know epic story that gets inevitably gets truncated and moves too quick. It's not the rise and fall and rise again kind of you know biopic story. Um, that, like most of these rock biopics, what you're signing up for is a concert movie with like some scenes of partying and then, oh, he became an alcoholic and he had sex and you know this kind of like burning out.
Speaker 1You don't get that at all, but it's a perfect summation of who Bob Dylan is, what he's maybe about or not, about substance of his character or lack thereof, right and genius, right right, in a very short amount of time, in a very specific time and place. That manages to convey a lot about the history of our country like a very I mean, it takes a very peculiar kind of small subset of culture and it's uh, it it urges you to ponder ideas about relationships, artists, professionalism in a lot wider way. I know that sounds vague, but, um, keep going, cut me off, say something. That was I. I'm wrangling here for something no, no, I I.
Speaker 2I agree a lot with that, and it's interesting because this is directed by james mangold, who kind of, was it the doghouse for me?
Speaker 1really why, after his hideous Indiana Jones 5, which is one of the worst things I've ever sat through in my life, but go ahead let's not get on that, it's not.
Speaker 2It's not that bad. But James Mangold, I mean, I think you would agree he defined the modern musical biopic right with. Walk the line that which is great which is great. But that is a. That is the, that is the mold by which almost every other musical biopic has copied from since then.
Speaker 1There's a mold for Dewey Cox, the parody of the music biopic right Sure.
Speaker 2And then here he comes along again to do another music, biopic, and it's a very, very different animal completely. So I found that part intriguing in and of itself and the movie begs the question. It's like does the movie really want to explore who Bob Dylan is or what he meant for, what he stood for or what he means to be him? I don't know, I think it's just kind of documenting. It's more interested in just documenting Bob Dylan as like a historical figure who just existed in this period of time. He influenced and did all these things and and we, the viewer, are just there to witness it. We're not there to like explore inside his head or, or, you know, find out about his childhood or anything like that. Like Like nobody cares, like that movie is not interested in that at all. It shows he basically appears on the scene as a fully formed person.
Speaker 2He rises to, you know, international fame, extraordinary fame, does this thing and then kind of wears out his welcome to a certain extent by the end of the movie and just kind of goes off on his own and it's like this happened.
Speaker 1That's, it's it, you know that that was my fundamental problem with the movie is that I was looking for something in this film beyond who is bob dylan, because, like, who really cares? Right, I mean, that was my.
Speaker 2You know, I'm like people do, because that's that's what most people take away. Who is Bob Dylan? What? What drove him? Where do the, where do the lyrics come from? Where does the music come from? You know, it's like this movie is not interested in that at all.
Speaker 1And what it does, though I mean the movie sort of illuminates this idea, which I think was fleshed out more, and if you were to watch this movie, I would say a central reading for you would be that Michael Moynihan article in the Free Press oh yeah, great, that was really really good. Filmmakers. To leave out this element was sort of wrong, because they would have had access they should not have, they should not have sidestepped that, because the film, the struggle of the movie, is that bob dylan makes his bones as a classic folk singer in the 60s. That's the milieu that he is grown and rises out of right now. The film was about his split with these people because he wants to do something different. He's he's done it. He's tired of the folk music. He's tired of um edward norton who plays pete seger, his, his, his, mentor right, and he's tired of it. And he pushes back against this folk music to do electric rock and the climax of the film is him bucking everybody and saying I'm gonna play electric rock right now.
Speaker 1The part that makes bob dylan seem like a dick is that in a traditional biopic rock movie you know, rock and roll, high school kind of thing it would be the story would be that there's an oppressive system forcing you not to rock out and party and be yourself right. System forcing you not to rock out and party and be yourself, right. But the the, the supposed suppressive, you know people that Bob Dylan is rebelling against are not bad people. They just want to have a full, you know concert and they're like hey, bob, would you please not play rock and roll music? We're trying to do this folk thing. And he basically says you, I'm going to do whatever I want.
Speaker 1And it's it sort of begs the question of, like, bob, why not just politely decline the invitation? Why come to these people's rock festival or folk festival and rain on their parade, right. But what the movie leaves out is that these guys were not opposed to Bob Dylan simply because he wanted to play a different style of music. They were very upset and angry with him and it's well documented that all these folk musicians were, in a sense, like they were, committed Marxist communists. They were admitted that their music was about sort of working people's problems, right. And they were upset with Bob Dylan that he, that he eschewed his political identity and instead wanted to focus on his own art. That is part of the story and it's entirely left out that is part of the story and it's entirely left out.
Speaker 2Yeah, and in fact their political motivation and ideas are is only very, very briefly um glossed over at the beginning of the movie, when pete seger is in court and he's being, I don't know, sanctioned or something for for espousing some kind of, you know, propaganda aspect to it. But but that's an interesting part that I agree with it. I wish the movie had I think a more courageous movie would have done that, I think, to kind of just have the widespread commercial appeal they're looking for, they just kind of eliminated that, but that's part of the story.
Speaker 1I mean you need it. It's cowardly. Now we do get little hints in there that Bob Dylan maybe was just doing protest songs, and this is all well documented. Bob Dylan has admitted this. He said I wanted to stop doing civil rights songs. I didn't care anymore, I wasn't concerned with that or the war, the anti-Vietnam war effort, I was done. And these people were all trying to pull me into this, and contemporary people that are in the movie, like you know what's her name, fucking joan bias.
Speaker 2She even wrote songs to bob dylan saying that he needs to come back and sing political music again and he was just basically like fuck you, that's, that's the interesting part of it is that these people are all stuck in the hamster wheel, spinning, spinning forever in the same, the same genre, the same um message, the same ideas. They're never moving forward and understand, as an artist, especially his point of view. You want to continuously move forward, you want to try something new, you want to move to the next stage, expand your horizons. Now I also understand that if you're doing a concert like that, you should give the audience at least something that they want. You can show off your new song, you can do whatever, but you need to. You need to give them a little red meat to just kind of calm them down. So the fact that he didn't he, you know he couldn't just compromise a little bit and play he did by the end of the movie.
Speaker 2I believe he did play like yeah, but I think it shows a kind of artistic different level that he's playing. He's playing Chats and they're playing Checkers. They're just stuck in this folk music world that he has already come and conquered and he's moving on to the next thing. His level of artistic merit is greater than theirs. I think the movie's postulating and he, he knows it himself I don't know.
Speaker 1It almost looks like he.
Speaker 2He kind of looks down on pete seeker for most of the movie, despite him being the person that brings him to fame and, uh, brings him onto the stage. He really admires woody guthrie and pete seeger is just a stand-in for Woody, who is like dying of Huntington's disease in the movie and is unable to speak or sing at this point.
Speaker 1So that's, that's his liaison to Woody, so he kind of puts up with him, but he seems to not really think much of him yeah, he has contempt for him and his small thinking, but I I am getting that more now because I have extra information that I gained from outside the film. Right, like pete singer was a guy that didn't denounce stahl until like 1980, right, I mean um dave van ronk, who's also good, by the way. Just on a personal note, I'm not a huge bob dylan fan, but if I were to listen to any songs from his career, it would be his folk music. I think that's the best stuff.
Speaker 1But you know all the music played in this movie is his best stuff, and it's something that I really like a lot again, I agree, I'm not not, you know, listening to the deep cut albums from after this period, or, you know, 70s and 80s I did a few things, but, like um you know, I'm not yeah, I'm not claiming to be some kind of you know super music appreciator here for anyone who wants to rip my ass and say that bob dylan's you know 1988 album is so good or whatever.
Speaker 1But like um I, there needed to be a scene in this movie where pete seeger says hey, um, I've noticed that the lyrics of your music is not about trying to change the world or it's not about workers of the world uniting anymore. What's the deal? You need to sing about things that matter, and Bob Dylan should have said fuck you, I'll sing about whatever I want. The movie needed that scene and they were too cowardly to put it in, even though it gives context and it it also gives like more drama to like the conflict Cause. Otherwise you have a movie about people who really like folk music and a guy who doesn't like it anymore.
Speaker 2Okay, what is what is driving him? What? So we, we, we. I kind of said before the movie is not interested in what's driving him, but I think subconsciously it is. So if it's not the political message of the folk songs, which it is for Pete Seeger, woody Guthrie, that's their intent to use folk music to kind of drive social change. Dylan's not interested in that at all, and if you watch the 60 Minutes interview that he did in the 2000s, it flat out explains this too. It's like he rejects the label of voice of a generation and all that that stuff that that gets ascribed to him. He's not interested in any of that. So what's what's driving the musical influence then? Is it just mastering that, that um genre and then kind of discarding it and moving to the next, or what? What is it exactly? It's kind of an enigma yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1I wish I could read like the michael moynihan article out loud because it's so good, but he talks about like bob dylan is like a guy he's like sold out a million times. He appeared on like pond stars for no reason. He puts his name on all sorts of products, licenses, songs all over the place. You know he likes money, but like. The interesting thing about them, though, is that this is a guy who was able to like write these songs that like obviously resonated with so many boomers. You know like the times are a change, and that's a very like.
Speaker 1It's a song with a lot of really strong convictions, powerful language, and then to get the feeling that either this guy moved on from that or didn't believe it in the first place while he was writing it, but was just such an effective parrot of like the zeitgeist, that's a that's. That's pretty wild, right. So I mean, it's definitely a movie worth watching and worth talking about, and I thought that it was, um, really what we look. Do we really need to say it's really well made and the music is great, and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1I mean it is, it's all great, you know I mean, yeah, um, but james mangle, for having made this movie that was rather complicated and different, and taking a swing on something with timothy chalamet too, by the way, which I, you know. I was sort of interested, like what is the casting process for this? Like, because I don't think timothy chalamet will come to an audition anymore. He's too big of a star. So, like, what do you do? Do you meet with him before the movie and say, hey, timmy, do you, we want you for the movie? Do you think you can be do a bob dylan impression? And then he goes off for three months and does it and then comes back on day one and then you see if he can do it or not. How does that work?
Speaker 2No idea you know, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2It's an interesting question but I don't know. So, yeah, I would definitely recommend this one. I would recommend it if you're into Bob Dylan. You're not, I think. Regardless, I think there's a lot to explore here. There's a lot of interest. I mean just getting to then kind of re to inhabit that world of the early sixties in New York and see that come to life on screen with the music and everything like that. It's I'll. I'll sign up for any movie that does that is good at this level.
Speaker 2The only gripe I have about all of these musical biopic movies and um, that this was in eldest too. They never contextualized the rest of the music industry at the time where these people are are coming up and it's like it's always in a it seems like it's always in a vacuum and it's kind of annoying.
Speaker 2And then you're supposed to focus on the person the movie is based on. We're talking about Bob Dylan, so why waste time talking about other artists and stuff? But there is some relevance to what else is happening in the world of popular music, like the Beatles and other artists, and how does that influence their music, et cetera.
Speaker 1They did mention it.
Speaker 2With that, et cetera, etc. I don't know. I find that part an interesting discussion. That would have, at least you know, been valuable to have a couple lines here and there, meeting other artists and discussing things with them. I know that's a small quibble, but like they always do this in all the movies and it's like the elvis movie, for instance, it existed in an entire vacuum where he enters into the 60s and it's like nothing ever changed, for music has been the same as it was, you know, 10 years ago.
Speaker 1Yeah, so I mean, I just I that I have with all they do mention. They mentioned briefly this sort of maybe implicit rivalry that like existed between dylan and maybe the beatles in a short throwaway line. And then we get johnny cash. But I don't really understand what the purpose of johnny cash was in this movie.
Speaker 2I don't really get what the game's mangle really likes johnny cash and wanted to put him in the movie again.
Anora: An Adult Fairytale Gone Wrong
Speaker 1Well, it didn't sound like it, because johnny cash is like a villain in this movie. He's like a horrible guy, you know. I mean like I get that we've seen. Yeah, he's just like a big drunk that we've seen.
Speaker 2Yeah, he's just like a big drunk, but but uh, did you know?
Speaker 1cash is the one who he's always supportive of dylan throughout the movie. He's telling him. He's telling him step on people. You do what you want, you don't listen to these people.
Speaker 2They don't own you.
Speaker 1You do what you feel is right but you know what, though, they work cowardly not to include the political thing, because that's a big part of that's a big context, part of it to help people understand. It's also a very important part of Bob Dylan himself and a very important part of us trying to understand who the folk people are, because they don't really tell you. If you were watching this, you would assume that Pete Seeger was a guy who was a victim of runaway McCarthyism and he was in a great guy. Now he, for all intents and purposes, might have been a very nice man, but this was a guy who was a committed Marxist, stalinist, and I'm not saying you have to make him into, you know a, a, a character cartoon villain, but like that should be important to know. I mean, he wasn't a run of the mill leftist right.
Speaker 2It informed their worldview. Same with Woody Guthrie too. I mean this land is your land, this land is my land. People think it's a nice rosy sunshine song.
Speaker 1I mean it has deep political implications to it as well. And in those stories he wrote that in response to Irving Berlin's God Bless America, which he found distasteful. Yeah right, I mean it's been very sanitized. But I was looking back at some of Pete Seeger's old folk music and listening to it. It's all really fun and good. He's got a great song called Hard Times at the Mill. It's terrific.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's not really my speed. I'll take the Dylan folk music, but the rest no thanks. I mean, joan Baez is great, I enjoy her stuff and the folk kind of explosion that happened as a result of that that's also left out too. I mean, I think they denigrate Peter Paul and Mary in the movie a little bit for one line. That's part of the same genre.
Speaker 1Peter Paul and Mary. What? Yeah, nothing, that's part of the same genre? Yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing. But yeah, you know, like the girl from north country though, which is not a political song, it's a very, you know, sort of it's almost like from the roots of folk music, which is like old shanty songs, right, old sailor songs. That's one of my, maybe one of my favorite songs of all time from Bob Dylan. It's a terrific, terrific song. So they do everything justice it's.
Speaker 2Uh, it's an interesting question to see what would have happened to, would folk music have completely died out, if not for for him, and the answer is probably yes, and his, his first girlfriend, uh, kind of poignantly, or, or puts, puts a nail on the head for that one, um, you can't just keep singing about the dust bowl forever.
Speaker 2There's, there's new if you're gonna make songs relevant about social problems, you need to move on with the times, and that's an interesting folk music kind of evolution too, it's called rap, perhaps right anyway, okay, uh, next movie would be anora, yeah sure loved it, thought it was terrific, really enjoyed myself. Yes, great one, really really great movie, strong contender for one of the best of the year was it based? It's an interesting question.
Speaker 2Um yes, and no I think it's, I think it's um has, has, um a very grounded worldview to it. It doesn't, it doesn't really have anything. I don't know how to say this properly you go first. You talk. You talk about your, what you, what you thought about this.
Speaker 1I haven't seen this movie in a long time, but I remember watching Lars von Trier's Nymphomaniac, right, and there's a scene at the very end. So the structure of the film is that our lead character is a nymphomaniac who's had sex with thousands of men right, and it's like a four-hour two-part movie, I think, about her experience, right, and she's relaying it all to, uh, scars, guard, senior, what's what's his name, and he's like the, the framing device of the movie, and that he's, he takes her in, he's talking to her, she tells him her whole story about all the sexual adventures she's had in her life. Right Now, at the very end, he walks into her room and propositions her for sex, right, and she refutes him and then kills him. Okay, now, it's been a long time since I've seen the film, but I thought, gee, that was a little extreme.
Speaker 1Seen the film but I thought, gee, that was a little extreme. You know, I was like boy, you know, but like it was the fact that he, um, I think if you talk to a sort of feminist read of the film, the idea would be he was a predator and that, like he listened, he sort of like wormed his way into her world, pretended to be a short of the crayon, but actually just wanted sex. And I believe he walks into the room naked and she's shocked and then kills him, right, and I think, like the idea is like, well, he got what he deserved because you know, it's, it's, it's her choice, you know what I mean? Like for him to assume that she was wanting to have sex with him is wrong, right, and that was the end, you know, and I was like, okay, right, and I was the end, you know, and I was like, okay, right and I was expecting this movie to have a similar ending.
Speaker 1Right, and norah befriends this, this russian guy who is just we're led to believe it is just sort of this like goon henchman, right, but he emerges as somebody that maybe has a little bit of a heart for anora, right? Yes, and throughout the whole movie she pushes him away, pushes him away he couldn't be nicer and she pushes him away. She accuses him of having rape eyes, of being a predator of sorts, right, and at the end, when he carries her bag up the stairs and is going to drop her off, she rebuffs him and insults him again. Right, and I was thinking is that how the movie's gonna end? Because, like you know, yay, girl power, like you don't have to do fuck man. That's not how it ends at all.
Speaker 1She, she moves in to have sex with him. They start to. Then she beats him and he sort of relents and is like I don't really know what's going on here, and then she falls into his arms and cries and that's the ending, and I thought that was very tender and very powerful. Right, this is a movie that treats women like human beings. You know where this anora, this character, is someone who's put on a very hard shell, but like, deep down, what she wants is to be loved, right? Yes, I thought that was a very refreshing message oh yeah, it's, it's a.
Speaker 2It's a very poignant movie. Um, my take is that it's it's a movie about very, very damaged individuals who kind of seemingly find two, two, very, very, uh distinct and damaged individuals who seemingly find each other and they think that there is something there that binds them together, but there is a very distinct maturity gap between them. Uh, anora is a very mature individual, she's an adult. Okay, these are these are. How old are they? In their early 20s, perhaps? She's probably early 20s yeah they're distinctly adults.
Speaker 2Okay, um, yes, she's probably made some not great decisions in her life where she's in this situation, but she's managing to survive and she's trying to make a better life for herself. She meets this basically oligarch, that's the son of russian oligarchs, who presents himself at least first with this very fun, uh, outgoing, you know, individual, throws a lot of money around, etc. They soon find he is stunted emotionally in terms of his maturity, his growth. He is. He is nothing more than a man child. Okay, yeah, and both his you know, sexual um pursuit and pleasures, his activity every other part of the day, constantly playing video games nonstop, etc. When Push comes to Shove, he talks a good game, oh, I'm going to define my parents, let's get married, we'll have a great life, etc. When Push comes to Shove, he bails.
Speaker 2He has the maturity level of an infant, okay, and now she's left holding the bag in this, you know, horrible situation. So we have this adult fairy tale that you know went wrong, for instance in the harsh modern world, and um sprinkled in then with some of the most hilarious moments of of the year, I think in film. There are some laugh out loud, funny, funny moments in this movie. I mean the cast of characters that then enter the movie in as um. What's his name? Banya? That's the. That's the, the boy who um, the son. After he exits the movie and the plot of the movie then becomes we need to find him because his parents send the goon squad after him to track him down and get an annulment and this like weird motley crew of characters come in, they sort of abduct her to go with them.
Speaker 2And they go on this like mad chase throughout new york to uh to try and to try and find him and it is hilarious results, all the banter and interactions that they're insulting each other constantly, um. The scene where the the head goon guy gets um called out of a baptism because he's a he's a priest in the orthodox church, I guess and uh, he's like doing this baptism and the phone keeps ringing and he's like, oh, sorry, sorry, I Church, I guess he's doing this baptism and the phone keeps ringing and he's like, oh, sorry, sorry, I gotta go, I gotta go, I gotta go. He just bails on the baptism. Super awkward, hilarious scene. The part where they do the home invasion basically and break in.
Speaker 2She's, this very scrawny little girl. She's beating the crap out of these big guys Cause they're not, they're not, you know, really fighting back against her. So, they're letting her do you know, full on damage to their faces et cetera. Picks to the crotch. It's just done hilariously well and so.
Speaker 1Very well executed series of pratfalls, and you know it was very yeah. And then when they're running around new york it reminded me a lot of like martin scorsese's. You know, uh, what's that fucking movie with griffin done? I can't remember anything today. But uh, you know, ah, why can't I remember that damn it one with griffin done, where he he's like lost in new york, can't get back into his apartment, like everything goes wrong for him. Um, anyway, but you know it was, uh, I mean, it was sort of like anxiety inducing, but like in a funny way, right, yes, oh, can I go home?
Speaker 2you know, especially with her, very like harley quinn-esque um voice accent what's going on there?
Speaker 1yeah, thanks trembling colors. Yeah, I appreciate it um yeah, no great movie it's.
Speaker 2It's a very difficult sell for me to uh try to explain the plot of this movie when I tell people you should go watch a nora and you're like trying to explain it. Oh, it's about this exotic dancer who you know hooks up with this brush and all. And then people are like looking at you, like why?
Speaker 1am I gonna watch this again, you know right, because it's a very tender and emotional movie.
Speaker 2Yes, because she is a real person. By the end of the movie you realize she is a fully formed, real human being. She has feelings and emotions and a goal in life and everything. And this snot-nosed brat took her for a ride.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think something else. I would expect Something else. I would expect that's low-hanging. Well, that's the other thing too. She's a child too. You know, she looks like top. She knows how to be a stripper. She's street smart and wise when it comes to that right. She's good at disassociating herself from the clients. She's great at talking them up and making them seem like she likes them. You know, anything you would have to do to survive in that kind of high business, because this is a high stakes. I mean, she's in what new york, you know, this is not. You know idaho, right and um.
Speaker 1But I think in any other movie and what I was expecting, which I thought would have been low-hanging fruit and not as interesting, would be the maybe more audience satisfying narrative of oh, I actually am going to pull some legal maneuver on you and now I get half your money and I'm going to go all the way to the bank and happily ever after. And that's not what happens, because that's not realistic and what ends up happening is that she was played and ends up with with nothing, you know. But what she does end up with is not a really rich guy, not a fantasy fairy Prince, but a very good man who does care about her, and she realizes that what she really wants is just, you know, not fake love, yeah. Not sexual adoration. Stability yeah, and exactly.
Speaker 2And there's nothing wrong with that Stability with a nice, wonderful person that this Igor Henchman guy actually turns out to be. He's a person.
Speaker 1Yep, someone to see her as a real person and not as a sexual fantasy, while you're out on a business trip with your whatever you know what I mean, right? Yes?
Speaker 2Not as a sexual play thing, as Vanya treats her as something that he can throw money at and use. This personor sees her as a real human being that wants to have a relationship with her. Treat her with respect truly a fun movie.
Speaker 1It's got a lot for everybody.
Speaker 2You know, maybe not, but this was the movie that I thought had the most nudity and sex and drugs and cursing by far of the year yeah, you're probably right.
Speaker 1A lot, of, a lot of that sex was all very comical, though.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean yes, it was meant to be. You're like, you laugh at it because it's so ridiculous. But that's part of it, because he is so childish. Yeah, comments to him at a certain point in the movie like hey, you don't have to do this, you know right, right, how about we?
Speaker 1you know why do we go so fast all the time with it?
Speaker 1because the sex was always just like insane energetic like funny level of like yeah yeah, yeah, and like even the scene where she does the strip um routine for him in the living room. I didn't find that to be titillating per se. I found it to be somewhat absurd and like funny. You know, I've seen people share it on the internet like, oh, check this out. And I'm like in the context it's like ridiculous. You know, it's a very like ludicrous thing that's happening here. Agreed, but yeah, nora, I really, really enjoyed it, do you Whipping through this? We're saying a lot of good stuff, wouldn't you agree? Trembling Colors, our big fan, do we?
Speaker 2have anybody actually watching.
Gladiator 2: Roman Spectacle Returns
Speaker 1I think so. Yeah, I think we're doing a fine job here. We're whipping through these, we're rocking it. Brother, gladiator 2, you really resisted seeing this. I had to really pressure you when you were seeing it. It seemed more pressing at the time for you to see it because it was being. It was such a big hit at the time. Now, is anyone thinking you're talking about gladiator 2? If not, why?
Speaker 2yeah, I was not not looking forward to this at all. I had zero, zero interest in seeing this. I don't know why. I'm not a particularly big fan of the original gladiator.
Speaker 2I think it's fine, but it's just not it's not one of my like go-to movies by any means, and so I didn't have a particular interest in seeing this. Um, a couple friends had wanted to go see it but that they kind of bailed. They like lost interest after reading some reviews and stuff like that. So, um, after you saw it and you raved about it, I was like well, I wouldn't say I raved about it well, he said it was very good.
Speaker 2And then you were like well, christopher nolan said that's the best movie of the year, or something like that he did so I was like, okay, well, you know, I'll find the knight and I'll just go.
Speaker 2and when I the movie first came on and they have this gigantic sea battle where they're storming the, you know the, the coastline of some town, some, some village or whatever, and I was like, oh God, is this going to be the whole movie? It's so like how many times have we seen this? After you get past that, when we actually get to Rome itself, movie just like radically transformed for me and I was enthralled with the holidays of the movie, the human drama of the movie, the interpersonal relationships, the intrigue, and particularly Denzel Washington for me made this movie. I mean, he is a character that I did not realize he was going to be such a malevolent presence throughout the whole movie. I thought you know he's going to be good or bad or whatever.
Speaker 2and then you see he's lining up towards kind of bad and then he turns really bad and he is just so deliciously evil by the end of the movie, and that captivated me a lot too. I mentioned the interpersonal family dynamics of the whole thing. That's also a huge part of it about realizing your family lineage, living up to expectations, doing the right thing, trying to reform your society, etc. There's a lot of very lofty themes and goals here that I really really found fascinating.
Speaker 1I really enjoyed the movie as well. I thought that it got off to a rocky start. The CGI on the boat sequence attacking the Whatever? On a multicultural. Well, they were in Africa, I believe Correct. What's that?
Speaker 2They were attacking somewhere in Africa because he was in exile there, I suppose.
Speaker 1So he gets shipped over on the slave boat with his pals to become a gladiator, right? And I thought the CGI and you know the, the. I thought the cgi and some of the things were questionable, especially when we get to the sort of howler monkey or whatever baboons or whoever they had to fight, I mean there's fine, but when they get to rome, yeah, I found myself much more interested, um, I would have to say the, the pedro pascal sequence in which he does battle with him one-on-one in the Gladiator Coliseum, where this guy, pedro Pascal, he's basically forced into a bad situation by these two malevolent gross, you know what would you want to say? Like weirdly feminized.
Speaker 2Yeah, one of them is syphilis-ridden. He's gone mad.
Speaker 1Pale, sickening, imprudent, yeah. And so he's forced to go and conquer by the sword for the glory of Rome and he even, you know, at the beginning of the film, orders these sort of off, candid, casual, like you know, emotionally driven murder of, you know, our main character's wife, right, so, like this should be a hated guy. Yet they do such a nice job exploring his conflicts, his, his, what he has to do, that he becomes a character that you really like and enjoy. And when they're forced to fight to the death of that Coliseum, that was one of the best scenes in movies I've seen all year. Now that the other scenes stack up, no, but that in that moment, that sequence, I was riveted. What's going to happen? You know, don't kill each other. Like, work together, you know, to win. You know it was that. It's just that kind of classic, that's simple. And but when a movie can, like, put a spell on me, like that, and get me to really, really care, and I, I can't ask for anything more.
Speaker 2I mean it was really terrific, I, I loved that because what you're describing is there are actual stakes to this fight. It is not violence for the sake of violence. There is a point to all of this. There is. There is people's lives are at stake. There's a complicated situation. There is moral ambiguity at work here, and the same note goes for the subsequent gladiator fight when the arena and uh, his mother is tied up on the platform and he has to defend her and he basically successfully defends her.
Speaker 2But denzel intervenes and is like well, I don't care about all this, grabs the archery set and just murders her, point blank. And it's just, it's so brutal, it's so just, it shows the movie has stakes, the movie has consequences. No one's safe here and there's a lot, there's a lot of the. You know the heavier drama influencing all of these interpersonal fights.
Speaker 1I would have to disagree with you on Denzel. I thought he was way over the top. I thought Ridley should have reigned him in, but you know what? That's fine. I mean, the movie was very entertaining, like a Batman villain, like when he pulls the head of the dead emperor out and he's like here's what I'm doing. I was like what the fuck is this? Are you like the joker? You're like you're like the penguin I love villains just my play.
Speaker 2They're basking in their evilness their, their mania is that, for me, does it all the time and then the ending.
Speaker 1I mean I thought it got a little overblown at the end. I mean, and also, why bring back derrick jacoby if you're gonna just give him one line and then have him die? You know, off like in the corner of like the widescreen, but like, um, you know I I enjoyed it. Um, yeah, that's, the guy's got a great point. Game of thrones had pedro doing a great duel. I know Riveting, but in Game of Thrones, pedro Pascal's breakout.
Speaker 2I think there's something else to be said for enjoying a movie like this, where we get a break from the traditional genres that we are just overexposed to. Yes so to have a sword and sandal epic gladiator movie on this scale, made with this pedigree, with Ridley Scott directing and these fine actors.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2At such a level and it's as good as it is, even with flaws. I think there's something to be appreciated and admired there that we're not just getting another superhero movie, another giant robot Transformers movie, et cetera. So I think the level of craft and skill that goes into that taking into that into account as well makes it kind of more special.
Speaker 1I'm with you and people have talked a lot about Ridley getting lazy or being lazy now, and I think his own cinematographer even said that about him that Ridley just likes to set up five cameras and just sit back and chill and like someone left a diet coke can in a shot and he's like I'll take it out and cgi, fuck it. You know what I mean. He's earned the right to do that, in my opinion, because I thought he upped the ante. He was like what are we going to do to make the gladiator fight bigger? Let's do the boat. You know water thing. I've heard about that.
Speaker 1You go to the coliseum, they tell you about that in that wild. Well, I'm glad we got to see it. It was really well shot and really cool and it sounds like they went to a lot of lengths to get it done. The one problem I have with this film is I don't think this, this paul mescal character he's. He's up against it because you're putting him up against russell crowe, who is just a terrific movie star. This guy ain't it man like he can't hold a candle, but I don't think he could carry the movie. That's why, if I had any big complaint.
Speaker 1It's an overly sort of um, the movie's dependent or decides to become dependent on kind of this ensemble and he's the unifying element. But I don't think he ever steps up to be the hero. He gives kind of a rousing speech but there's a problem. I've noticed in a lot of movies that I can't come up with any specific examples now but maybe this will ring true for somebody in the audience. I find there's too many films nowadays where the hero resists the call to action for far too long and they come off as sort of obstinate and foolish or selfish to the audience and that they wait so long to meet that call to adventure. You know what I?
Speaker 2mean, I hear what you're saying. I do agree with you. I don't think he's able to carry the movie entirely on his own shoulders, and it does become more of an ensemble thing, which I'm fine with in this context, because I think we have a really great cast of supporting players to support him. I would challenge the thing about the call to action. I think I mean, I guess, great leaders are called by the situation.
Speaker 2They don't want to necessarily rise uh too fast or assume um leadership without it being utterly necessary. I something like that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1I didn't get enough of a reason out of the movie as to why he was so hell-bent on rejecting his mother, rejecting his father's legacy.
Speaker 2Being mad like you know, I was like get over it, come on they got you away because you were the secret prince yeah, he felt um, you know, abandoned which he was, but he was ordered to save his life, I mean, but yeah you know what? What kind of life did he live in exile? Was it wasn't good?
Speaker 1oh, I guess it was good because he had, he was married and had a beautiful wife, but was then killed in that situation yeah, and I thought the visual imagery when he goes to his sort of like, uh, instead of the denzel, instead of the you know, russell crowe field of barley, it was kind of this like sanguine sort of afterlife pool of water, which I thought was cool. The visuals, the opening sequence when they recap the first one with those paintings the same guy who did the paintings for Ridley Scott's logo, scott Free amazing, that hooked me. I was like what a great way to do it to do it.
Speaker 2But I I think maybe why I like this so much maybe more than you is that I feel like it has a lot of the same general motifs and um themes that you find in a lot of classical superhero stories, especially in terms of legacy characters who have to live up to their predecessor's mantle or, you know, assume the role especially in like dc, you know, uh, comics and stuff where you have the, the protege or the son or the daughter of a big, important character who is now thrust into the spotlight and has to, you know, assume that mantle and assume leadership and live up to expectations. So that part of it spoke to me maybe a little bit more. I kind of liked that part, without it being a traditional superhero movie in that regard.
Speaker 1Okay, no, I enjoyed it too, don't get me wrong. There were just a few things that bugged me, you know.
Speaker 2I would. I would definitely rewatch this again over many other movies that I saw this year.
Speaker 1So I told everybody to go see it. I go. It's a great time. There's some terrific action sequences, good performances. You'll be riveted, I mean you'll be invested in the story. You'll be surprised how much you end up liking the kid and caring about the ancillary characters in his orbit. And as far as a sequel to Gladiator goes which when I heard about it they've been talking about it for what? Seven years I was like what could that possibly be? And I think they did it justice. And really the solution to doing a gladiator two is just kind of do a different story with a tenuous connection. But let's just make another gladiator movie again, and by gladiator I mean like sword and sandals adventure. You know which they did, and I thought that was refreshing. Exactly, it was nice to see that it was a hit and not just another miss. Marvel three.
Speaker 2Yeah, three um, and I think this is the best way to do a movie like that is the legacy approach, just like we kind of saw with um top gun, maverick, yeah, yeah this is not as good as top gun maverick, I'm not making that comparison. But I think in that regard about, you know, living up to expectations, continuing the next generation, etc.
Speaker 1And and basically doing the same movie over again, but having that generational change but would you say it does a better job than something like ghostbusters afterlife or ghostbusters the green slime returns or whatever?
Speaker 2ghostbusters frozen empire so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a much better movie than ghostbusters afterlife, which but I really like I really did enjoy ghostbusters afterlife a, but I could really like I really did enjoy ghostbusters afterlife a lot. I.
Speaker 1I know we disagree on that, so but I would say this is a better movie. Yeah, you didn't see. I thought you saw it and you just didn't know. I, I sort of I manufactured an idea of it in my mind and I decided that I didn't like it.
Speaker 2So that was uh well, I think you just, you just have a problem with jason reitman, apparently because you didn't like saturday night either oh, don't even get me started on that.
Speaker 1I couldn't finish that horrible movie, like you know it's. It's so hard because we've gotten really good at doing period pieces and so for that reason I enjoyed it. Like I like that period of saturday night live, I think it's interesting. But to like lionize it, as some, like world changing, stick it to the man like we're gonna change everything with our comedy show, you.
Speaker 2You know, I don't need that. You know what I mean. It's just so annoying. It's just they sort of did, though they sort of did revolutionize the face of, you know, sketch comedy and and late night tv first, to a certain extent, I mean it's, it's an irrelevant genre nowadays that's fine, that's you know.
Speaker 1You know what, though? To be cool means that like you do stuff and you're just like, yeah, what's up, doesn't mean you make a movie about how great you are. You know, that's the secret, to be sure.
Speaker 2Okay fair enough, I did not see it.
Speaker 1I still have not yet seen it, so I I will not um I shared a scene from the movie which is like just so cringeworthy and awful where, like the edgy you know, uh, the edgy writers like wrote a, a skit that was too hot for tv which, by the way, I'm sure it was not, because if you watch those early snl skits they're like hard to get there. They're so unfunny and, um, like they wrote some sketch. And then the they have a character in the film which is like the caricature of, you know, like the most cartoony straw man religious right person they could possibly come up with it doesn't exist in real life where she's like I, my job is to protect the citizens of america from communism and filth like you. And then like they get her back with like facts and logic and like this cool comeback and everyone's like yeah, we're edgy and I'm just like this shit is like so fucking horrible like I couldn't stand it, like after that I turned it off. It was so awful.
Speaker 2It sounds like one of those. Uh, stick it to the man. Don't trust anyone over 30, you know yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1It's like. It's like the howard stern movie, where they're like you gotta, you gotta tone it down. It's like the Howard Stern movie, where they're like you gotta, you gotta tone it down. It's like no, I'm going to do whatever I want, it's just like not. That that's not admirable.
Speaker 2I reserve my judgment until having seen it so yeah, go ahead, go ahead and watch it.
Speaker 1I mean, it's whatever, but I guess we're going to talk about a few other movies if we have time.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Maybe jury number two.
Speaker 2First of all, do you have a top 10 list or not?
Speaker 1I don't. No, not really, because I hate doing a top 10 list, because I didn't see everything, so I can't.
Speaker 2Well, I didn't see everything either.
Speaker 1You saw more than me.
The Apprentice: Trump's Origin Story
Speaker 2I would mention the other movies that I really enjoyed this year and I will definitely re-explore in subsequent viewings. For mainstream movies, I mean, I was a big fan. I think you liked it too. But I was a big, big fan of beetlejuice. Beetlejuice, I thought it was phenomenal sequel in terms of the standards in which we, you know, live in nowadays in terms of sequels and reboots and remakes. I thought this movie was very delightful, very funny. Um respects the original but does many new things. And I understand a lot of the criticisms of the movie in terms of I think like the narrative does kind of fall apart at the end. But also I think for a movie like this it doesn't really matter. The whole, the whole ethos of the movie, is like kind of just like vibes, comic energy, bouncing around from real, the reality, to the underworld, back and forth, seeing some crazy stuff, you know, music, video, montages of stuff.
Speaker 2Michael Keaton looks fantastic as Beetlejuice they toned it down just ever so slightly to kind of make it more palatable for modern audiences.
Speaker 2But I did not mind it, and I felt, like this movie seemed very, very more in tune with the beetlejuice animated series that was big in the uh. I remember watching it on reels and reruns on nickelodeon back in the early 90s I don't know if it was older than that or not, but kind of just the exploration of the world around. Beetlejuice was much more interesting in this film, so I would definitely recommend that one to lots of people I enjoyed it too.
Speaker 1I can't offer any more praise. You know, really, beyond what you said, um, though it wasn't as vociferous as yours, I did enjoy it. Um, uh, I would say if I had a favorite it'd probably be Challengers. But I saw a movie called A Different man with Sebastian Stan, which I really enjoyed, which is about a guy with a hideous face deformation, who I don't want to say hideous, but it's definitely an alternative face, would that be the right term? He's very meek and mild and he, like the substance, gets a procedure that turns his face to normal. So he lives life as a normal man and he encounters a guy with a similar face affliction. And this guy lives life to the fullest, beyond what Sebastian Stan can do as a handsome, ordinary guy, and he begins to overtake Sebastian Stan's life in a kind of what about Bob? Way, by just being himself and being comfortable with who he is, and it ends up driving Sebastian Stan crazy.
Speaker 1It's a good movie. I really enjoyed it. It's not going to change your life, but I would definitely recommend watching it if you have some free time. It's very unique. I thought Stan was terrific in it and it's not the only movie this year that we watched where he was good and I also thought he was good in Donald Trump.
Speaker 1The film Did you enjoy Donald Trump the movie.
Speaker 2Was he better in the Apprentice or in a different? I almost thought you were going to talk about a better man for a second.
Speaker 1Then I was like no, it's got a different.
Speaker 2Robbie Williams movie.
Speaker 1I didn't see the Robbie Williams movie. I hate the dog piling on it because you know I don't want to do that. Maybe it's very good. I did see it, a long extended clip though of like there's some big one-shot take dance sequence of him in London and everyone was like this is the best scene in the movie and it's played to some interminable song, and I was like, yeah, I don't think I would like this movie at all, but yes, I did see the Apprentice.
Speaker 2Very mixed feelings on this movie. Yeah, I'm with you. I thought the if you want to separate the movie into like two halves, I think the first half is phenomenal, the part that's in the 19th, late 1970s, and then the second half, as we move into the 80s and kind of beyond, I thought the movie um just decidedly slows down and becomes much less interesting.
Speaker 2It becomes much more of a caricature piece as opposed to a character study, and the performance gets much more kind of cartoonish. And so for me I found that less interesting, less insightful.
Speaker 1The first half is very, very much like you have no idea where this movie's going to go.
Speaker 2This movie is taking you into kind of dark, different places and you're you're very much intrigued by what is the relationship going to be between donald trump and roy cone. Roy cone is a very, very intriguing character in and of himself, in real life and in the movie and kind of the yeah placing this innocent donald trump, you know, as a kind of like.
Speaker 2They portray him as a very naive, innocent kind of person at the beginning of the movie right he makes this like mephistophelian deal with roy cone, you know more or less and becomes I guess they're trying to say he corrupted him or whatever, but like that's when the movie becomes less interesting. The beginning, where they're forming this friendship and they're two very disparate personalities and people, and that's to me was much more interesting in terms of the movie and obviously the performances. After that I was really bored and kind of like done with it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. I at the end it was like it gets almost comical and like the, the evil villainy of donald trump, and like not that I want to litigate whether or not it happened. I'm not going to defend donald trump as some great guy and he's been slandered by this film. You know what I mean. But I did think that it became less interesting the more we got to sebastian stan, like doing the trump impression right, and I thought that the to hang the movie on the framework of trump and roy cone's relationship. I mean it works. It's effective for a movie. I thought that it worked. Well. I thought the guy that played roy cone from, uh, the hbo show, I thought he was really terrific. Um, but sort of strange credulity. I mean they set this whole story that well, donald Trump surpassed Roy Cohn, then he screwed him over and threw him away. It's like, well, I don't know, is that true? Everywhere I looked on the internet I couldn't really find corroborating evidence for that. So I mean I don't know if that spoils your enjoyment of the film. Like it seems like they didn't really ever have a falling out or anything. Like roy cone fell on hard times. Trump spoke about him as a character witness at his disbarment hearing, so he didn't just like completely swear him off and tell him to go away. You know, um, you know the beginning.
Speaker 1I thought it was a beautiful looking movie, like it looked terrific. I mean it was. Yeah. I mean I and I was, I was engaged and I thought it was. It was fun and there were scenes. Certain scenes I rewound and watched again because I thought they were fun and again it invites you to live in this fun world of the 70s New York. I thought it was a worthwhile movie, worth watching and worth making. It's definitely interesting. I want the trilogy. I want the Trump trilogy. Let's keep going with this. But I thought Sebastian Stanek quitted himself. Well, you say he sounded a little cartoony towards the middle and yeah, for the most part he does Right. But well, when he starts becoming like hyper manic, because yeah they explain that, oh, he's taking amphetamines.
Speaker 2It's and he's doing the snipping, the constant you know, it just becomes very much you know caricature cartoon much you know caricature cartoon. Does trump do that? Yeah, he does do that sometimes. Yeah, a lot. But it's like, okay, we got it. Like that's not new, that's not new. But we've seen that on um it's snl with alec baldwin doing it. You know yeah before we don't.
Speaker 1We don't really kind of need that I thought stan did a fine job like there seems like with roger stone, where he talks to him about running for president, and I thought that was well.
Speaker 2That's what I mean especially in the beginning, when he gives this very, very subdued uh performance. It is, it's like magical. You think you're really looking at donald trump from the 1970s. It's uncanny, it's very eerie. And then it becomes very just blah and boring.
Speaker 1Well, the key to doing a good this is also one of the best parts of this movie.
Speaker 2There are some great montage scenes.
Speaker 1Oh yeah.
Speaker 2Always on my mind as we are introduced to Trump Tower. That was a phenomenal scene yeah, I mean the movie.
Speaker 1I think this guy rip post says this movie will live on in clips, post on twitter and it's like, yeah, because the movie can't help but sort of be in love with the majesty of trump, like, even though it's portraying him as a bad guy, it's still very glitzy, glamorous, partly as a product by when it was, you know when all this took place, you know, but, um, you could clip it and take things out of context and make a trump highlight reel. You know like bad, you know badass compilation or something right if you really wanted to. But um, yeah, I found it. Um, I found it, yeah, where it's like here's the decline and and fall of Trump and he changes and becomes a different guy because of Roy Cohn, and it's just like I don't know if I can buy that that happened and for all the A big part of the press tour was how accurate we wanted to be. I know Roger Stone said the guy playing Roy Cohn did a phenomenal job and that counts for something right. I mean that's a good endorsement again another one.
Speaker 2You have to watch the 60 minutes interview I did, I did okay, it was. The movie directly lifts many, many like scenes from that interview. It's kind of weird. Um right scene, the frog collection, like dialogue and the frog collection was totally real.
Speaker 1That's something you absolutely have to have in your movie. Now I watched an interview with Jeremy Strong on Colbert and he was like, well, I had an idea that maybe I would be in a frog costume, like at my house, and that got cut out of the movie. But that was like we did that and I'm like, well, that didn't happen. Did Roy Cohn have a frog costume?
Speaker 2I don't know, but that's kind of silly stuff. That would have further undermined the credibility of the movie. I think even more. Yeah, right I think so, it was wisely cut.
Speaker 1Yeah, but there was some. It was worth watching, I agree, anything else, what else we got Jura, number two.
Speaker 2Jura number two. Jura number two because actually maybe Hot Take, I'm actually contemplating and I think I will. I'll put Jura number two actually as my favorite movie of last year. I really, really liked it a lot. I think it's a nice coda to Clint Eastwood's career, which I mean maybe he'll make something Is it over.
Speaker 1Do you know something? I don't.
Juror #2: Clint Eastwood's Moral Dilemma
Speaker 2He's living on borrowed time here at this point, I mean at age whatever, something I don't. He's living on borrowed time here at this point, at age 90-whatever. Will he make another movie? Maybe, but this will probably be his final film, I think, and it's especially because it's such a step up in quality from his last several films, which have been almost unwatchable. I found Crying Joe to be unwatchable. I found Crime Show to be unwatchable. It was just abysmal because he you know, sorry, because he was starring in it and it's very hard to believe in an 89-year-old, you know, cowboy doing all these crazy stunts. So this directing, I thought it was phenomenal. It works very well because it is that.
Speaker 2What would you do movie right, it's a very believable premise. It's a very simple premise, yeah, and it invites you to put yourself in that situation and contemplate these very serious moral and ethical dilemmas about. Essentially, the movie is um, the guy, nicholas holt, is selected for jury duty for a murder case, the guy who was accused of murder, of accused of murdering his girlfriend. He's a very seedy individual and through the, as the evidence comes out of the case, nicholas Holt realizes that he may actually have been responsible for this person's murder, not the, not the defend it through, you know, accidental happenstance, involuntary manslaughter in the rain, driving, etc. So I thought the movie was going to do a little bit of the uh, not be so explicit and to say that, you know, maybe he just thinks that he was responsible and we're left with kind of that ambiguity, but then it really does come out and tell you that he did do it.
Speaker 2He did do it. Now he's serving on the jury for this innocent man who, he himself, is the murderer. So there's a lot of you know. Do you speak out? Do you say something? Do you ruin your own life in order to pursue a justice? You know? Do you ruin your family's life? Who's who? Do you ruin your own life in order to pursue a?
Speaker 1justice, you know, do you ruin your family's life? Who's who? Do you owe higher allegiance to your family or a sort of a sort of complicated and not perfect system of law, right?
Speaker 2precisely what do you do? Do you what is justice? Help get the guy off, but then you have to convince a jury of 11 other people who are very obstinate and want to just get this over and done with conviction, quick conviction. So you're left with that. Why are you the only one holding out? What is it that you know that the rest of us don't? That this guy is innocent?
Speaker 1well, that's the, that's the burning question well and I enjoyed the movie very much too. I found it to be wrenching and like very engrossing. My wife did not. She thought it was boring, which I thought was. I couldn't believe it. I thought it was like this is like my worst nightmare. You know what I mean. This movie is asking so many fundamental, really important questions, like I mentioned before, about the family. It's like his wife basically knows he's guilty and she's like you better throw this motherfucker under the bridge and save our family right, because this guy he's not a good guy he's innocent of the crime.
Speaker 1But you know, as many other jurors who sort of act as a bulwark against, like the, the plans of our hero, like mentioned, like, this guy probably deserves it anyway, right, and he's evaded real justice until now. So even if he didn't do it, it roll him up. You know what I mean. And, um, I found it to be incredibly engaging. I thought that if this had came out in 1997 it probably would have been the film of one of the, a huge hit, right, whereas it was sort of unceremoniously dumped, you know, in select theaters by MGM, warner Brothers, warner Brothers. They're going to streaming service.
Speaker 1But we talk about Nicholas Holt in Nosferatu, probably one of the best performances of the year that I've seen. Nicholas Holt in this movie. He's unbelievable. I never thought much of the guy before. I thought of him as kind of just like a dude that was in things. But he is tremendous in this. To convey that and we all have had this before, this nagging guilt, suspicion, fear of something that's weighing on us and you have to operate in the world and act like nothing is wrong that's incredibly hard to convey. He does it beautifully.
Speaker 2He has those wonderfully expressive, very large blue eyes that zoom in on those. They eat away at you as you're watching him just like sweat and pour over his, you know, contemplate his situation. It's, it's very, very nerve-wracking I mean I like what you mentioned.
Speaker 2If this movie had come out in 1987, it would have been a phenomenal massive hit. And what does that say about a state of the state of film in this day and age? Why can't we have this kind of throwback legal thriller? What's so wrong about that? Is that just because it's been relegated to streaming and cable and etc.
Speaker 1I will tell you one thing, and maybe you could argue that the movie is intentionally made this way, but it's a very straightforward, I would almost say, blandly shot, blandly lit movie. Maybe that's what Clint wanted. I tend to believe. Maybe it's because Clint, like Ridley, is maybe a little more workman. Like he's shooting a movie like maybe fucking, you know, henry Hathaway, when I done like this, you know what I mean put a dolly in there. Sometimes Clint, like let's give a little, let's have a little flair going like maybe, you know, I mean, you could move like a few good men. That's a beautiful looking movie. It's a tremendously looking movie, incredibly well shot and very stylish. This movie, I would say, lacks style. Maybe that's the point. Maybe, though, he wants us to focus on the performances and doesn't want to distract us, and he doesn't go in for all that, but I think that it is sort of flat oh it, it is.
Speaker 2It is completely. I think the material speaks for itself, though I think the drama is so strong in the movie that it's not. There's no visual. I think visual flourishes might be more distracting than helpful at that point. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1Sure.
Speaker 2But what else? It's a decision. You know what I mean, sure, but um, it's a decision. You know the obviously pays homage to called angry men. That's also a nice little touch there. The other kind of fascinating part that I really liked and appreciated about the movie is the ending. The ending is a very open. Open ending in terms of interpretation about what happens next, because we kind of we kind of we kind of bend things in a positive note for our protagonist and then there is a knock the door where the district attorney is, you know, following up, and the movie just ends yeah, I didn't like that I liked being able to think about it.
Speaker 2Now there was somebody in the audience at my theater who shouted out and had to verbalize I don't like that ending, and it made me actually like it even more because it's like yeah you're you. We're not supposed to be spoon fed, we're not supposed to have everything just explicitly laid out for us.
Speaker 1You need to think about it, okay well, and also the fact that you have a guy in the audience who's who's willing to stand up and say I hated the ending. That's a guy that's eligible for jury duty, which I think could give you a pause about the legitimacy of the system, right, like your regular old knucklehead dumbass who needs to let everyone know his opinion on the nuance of the film. Now, I disagree with you because I thought that by having her arrive at his door, it was a fairly conclusive ending, that it was over for him and that Toni Collette was going to do the right thing of turning him in, because she has to wrestle with demons too, because she's got this guy hung up, an innocent man, because it's going to help boost her credentials as a woman who defends against domestic violence, which is a very politically advantageous position for her to hold and part of her image Right and part of it is like recognizing that maybe her guiding philosophy is not always correct and she has to do something different. So she's wrangling with something as well. It's not as cataclysmic as whole, but I thought the movie would have.
Speaker 1They would have had a more. There was a sequence in which he's tucking his new baby down to bed and police sirens go by and he has this like striking fear in his heart that maybe they're coming from me. I thought you could have ended the movie there to say that maybe they'll come for him, maybe they won't, but he's going to spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder To me. When Tony Collette showed up at the door, it was fairly conc, entirely conclusive to me that he was cooked.
Speaker 2But, like their previous discussion, there's really not a whole lot of mountain of evidence to implicate him. There's these kind of discussions that they've had where it's kind of like you know that, I know that you did it and vice versa, but there's any tells her, you have no evidence. There's no way to connect me to this at all. So maybe she's gonna talk to them some more, maybe it will amount to nothing. It's just kind of like it's not shut open and shut. There's. There's still. There's still some danger there. But I think he he still has the um, his son, he's still mostly in the clear. He still has the his, he's still mostly in the clear. He still has some deniability there.
Speaker 1Okay, fair enough, but yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thought Clint did a terrific job, I would. Did he give any interviews? I was looking for to see if they gave him interviews, cause I'd be really interested to hear from Clint Eastwood. From him Like why did you choose this movie? What does this mean to you? You could pick all sorts of material, clint, why this.
Speaker 2Well, it's nice and simple and it's just very refreshing to see him.
Speaker 1Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2Very kind of self-contained. No action, no nothing. It's just all these inner demons, these dilemma, uh, manifesting in a life or death situation here this is a universal movie because anybody can have an opinion on it.
Speaker 1We spend a lot of time here talking about you know how can we interpret this substance from a feminist lens or you know whatever? Like what does this mean in terms? But that's just a movie that asks very clear moral questions, and anybody could walk out of that theater and have a nice discussion over coffee and pie afterwards, right?
Speaker 2and it's realistic enough that you could be in such a situation, not oh yes but this is a very realistic premise.
Speaker 1This is not my greatest this is not um being in no you know heretic or challengers.
Speaker 2Okay, this is being in like a real world here you've never been in challengers before no, I've not been in the situation of challengers anyway, um yeah, but you know that's.
Speaker 1That's back to the my coffee and pie comment. That really is. You know you, people use movies as an activity to spend time together. Right, increasingly they're. They're using television because they get to sit there and talk to each other during it and make, you know, snide comments about whatever they think about. You know such and such, but the movies used to be a communal experience because they would give you something to talk about when you left. That's your time to come together and commune about what you just watch. You know what does it mean to you? Did you you like it? Did it make you feel something? Did it give you ideas? That's what justifies sitting in the dark for two hours with somebody.
Speaker 2Netflix movies are designed not to be watched if you.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, we could talk about baggage claim or whatever the fuck. That was what the hell was that Carry on. Did you read?
Speaker 2that that I don't know if you read that article I sent you a while ago. It was like netflix, um executives or writers or whoever basically admitted that their movies are designed not to be watched. They're meant to be just consumed it by osmosis. So, for instance, like writers were told from executives, there's way too much happening in this episode of the show. Like you need to space this out or you're not explicitly writing the dialogue. Like you know, if you ever watch like an episode of the super friends from the 70s and the characters will explicitly say what they're doing, like I've got to wonder when to say I've got to rope my magic lasso around the cheetah in order to stop her from robbing the bank, fall it's like yeah, yeah so we've moved on from that, but now we're going back to that level of explicit detail because, as a netflix executive told the writer well, what if someone has to go make spaghetti in the other room?
Speaker 2how are they going to follow the movie?
Speaker 1oh my gosh, that's so sad man, like I don't get it. You know, my own wife will do this. She will be watching a show that's like very well made and like cinematic and engaging, and she will leave the room and go do laundry, not pause it, and then just come back and sit down and watch it again and I'll be like, how do you even know what's happening, right?
Speaker 2um yeah, repost I only do that with things that I've seen like a million times before and I'll just have it on again or whatever. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1Like I've been watching new for the first time like whoa, no way 100, like I will put on episodes of battlestar galactica and just like fuck around, just because I like to look at it and see, you know, but like I'm not, I've seen them.
Speaker 1Repost day says carry on was painfully cliche, but I like comedic actors playing ruthless villains. I agree, I thought jason bateman was good, but I will tell you this, the movie was pg-13, which was a strategic decision to try to make it a four quadrant movie. But if you're gonna make a movie about a guy with, like toxic, killing gas when you lock him in a fridge at the end and the gas gets released and you're and, by the way, I've been hearing on the television, on commercials, tv spots, that this is this season's die hard well then I need a little more than jason bateman coughing and crumpling into a ball. He needs to like literally explode right and um, the movie, yeah, blast, die hard because he wrestled, wrestles a guy in a fucking baggage carousel. Give me a break. It was totally overblown and if people had gone and seen that in the theater they would have been very upset because it's a lot.
Speaker 2But George the boomers haven't seen Die Hard. That movie came out in like 1988, you know.
Speaker 1You're right, this was much better. Yeah, this was much better. Give me a break. Plus it tries to get you to like TSA agents, which is nearly impossible and a task that they couldn't surmount in this film.
Speaker 2I don't know how much time you have left, but the only other big movie and I think you really should watch it because I really loved it was Heretic, starring Hugh Grant. Phenomenal movie, extremely extremely superb suspense thriller. It's a tour de force from Hugh Grant carrying the movie with the dialogue that he's given here. Very philosophical movie about religion and faith and testing your faith and basically this like hardcore atheist guy traps two mormon missionary, two women mormon missionaries, in his house and puts their faith to the test through a series of different, you know uh, scenarios. And yeah, at the end of the movie I think there's something for everyone, I think, whether you believe in religion or you don't, there's. There's something that everyone, I think, whether you believe in religion or you don't, there's something that everyone can kind of take away from it. There's a lot of things open to interpretation and there's just a very it feels like someone's like graduate thesis that they took and like wrote a screenplay around it.
Year-End Recommendations & Closing Thoughts
Speaker 2Yeah, and Hugh Grant has this very charismatic and um goofy yet very creepy and menacing villain is just seen stealing in every single scene. So um great movie, highly recommend it. Um, you should definitely check it out.
Speaker 1And I do love Hugh Grant. So well, this has been a lot of fun, man. I'm glad we got to run these down. I thought we were succinct. I thought in certain moments we were funny. Maybe the audience had a nice laugh. I think they enjoy spending time with us and I suppose you could say so in the chat, but I'm sorry it's been such a long time since we've had one of these. What we need to do going forward, instead of jamming seven movies into one show, is meet occasionally in between our, you know, big shows where we do fun things. We have a lot planned for you. We thinking like Elvis, Elvis might do. We might just meet every once in a while and say, hey, what are the last two big movies that just came out? Let's talk about them, Right, Because I guarantee you are not. If we had done a standalone Nosferatu stream, it would have done numbers dude.
Speaker 2Well, it's been so long now since I saw the movie too, we and it would have done numbers dude. Well it's been so long now since I saw the movie too. We and we really kind of, I know blew all the good material in that conversation.
Speaker 1I was trying to remember what we talked about well, and and also I I listened to our madame webb show recently before and you I was like, oh, I'm glad we did this. So I would have totally forgotten this movie and there's like things in it, but I'm glad I remembered you know, for whatever, this one was quite good too I agree it was fun.
Speaker 2People liked it so madam, what was not in your top 10 for the year?
Speaker 1you know what? If I don't know, I think maybe I saw 10 movies I don't even know. So I mean, that's why I don't do the top 10 list rip to the sony spider-man universe are. Oh yeah, I was gonna ask you about craven, I Craven. We'll have to save that for a separate show.
Speaker 2I've got to get rolling, we should do a Sony Spider-Man vs Tribute show with.
Speaker 1Venom.
Speaker 2Orbeez, Madam Web, and Craven the Hunter. I will. Three Sony Spider-Man movies come out in 2024 alone, which is insane, madam.
Speaker 1Web yeah, Venom.
Speaker 2Venom the Last Dance and graven the hunter oh cool.
Speaker 1You know, what I think our next show should be is um, we've talked about doing a show of our favorite trailers. Yes, we should do that. That'd be fun for the people out there would you be?
Speaker 2I don't know. Would you want to do like captain america?
Speaker 1new world order I think we have to. I think we owe it to the people to do it. We did not see wolverine.
Speaker 2I didn't see wolverine deadpool yeah you, you really were pushing that and I was like I cannot, I cannot not watch this I don't think I can handle it.
Speaker 1I don't think I can. I've always hated brian reynolds and I think that the public at large is coming around to that fact oh man, yeah, the stuff that's coming out about the uh, the blake Blake Lively stuff not very good.
Speaker 2I know she's feuding with some guy the director of her movie, but he intervened and shattered his nice guy image according to a lot of sources.
Speaker 1And then Taylor Swift, you can never shatter your nice guy image. We would never shatter our nice guy image here.
Speaker 2Oh, heaven forbid, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, okay, hey brother, it's always fun talking to you.
Speaker 2All right, have a good one until next time. Thanks for watching everyone.
Speaker 1See you guys.
