Film Journal Podcast
George (Film Journal) and Ryan (Cinecrisis) dig through film history one oddball pick at a time—hopping from cult horror to forgotten blockbusters, art house to trash fire (sometimes in the same episode). Whether it’s dissecting Hammer Horror, roasting the latest Studio Flop, or revisiting 70's exploration fare- they bring sharp takes, deep trivia, and the kind of banter only good pals can pull off!
No film school snobbery. No hot take clickbait. Just smart, funny conversations for people who like movies and think they actually matter.
Film Journal Podcast
The Fantastic Four film that was Buried Forever!
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George & Ryan watch and review Roger Corman's infamously unreleased Fantastic Four film from the early 90's as well as the documentary "Doomed".
The Unreleased Marvel Experiment
Speaker 1Everybody that worked on this film. We all rolled the dice thinking the game was fair, but it was rigged. We gambled with our heart and our soul and our artistic ability to make a really good movie, the best we could with what we had.
Speaker 2We were making a movie for probably around a million dollars of the Fantastic Four and you, just you can't do that, you just can't. But we did.
Speaker 1All in our space adventure. They got hit by cosmic rays.
Speaker 2Hey everybody welcome back. Of course there's a new Fantastic Four movie coming out and we just did a really tremendous stream on Roger Corman a few weeks back. So this episode, I think, is kind of fortuitous and we decided today we would talk about the original 1994 unreleased Fantastic Four film, an early effort from some of the people that would make huge strides in the later half of the decade, in the early 2000s, like Avi Arad, in bringing Marvel to the big screen. But this was a mishap. Something went wrong and we're going to talk about that today as well as, most importantly, whether or not this often spoken about in hushed tones film filled with lots of lore, very difficult to see, is any good. Brian, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3I'm doing well, George. How about yourself? Causing any more controversy? Causing any more controversy, causing any more controversy lately I hope so.
Speaker 2I hope so it gets uh brings views into the lots of comments on my controversial video I I did about um uh grifters online. This is not a grifting podcast, though. We're not going to talk about this movie to like rag on it or get clicks. This is appreciators only zone and I think we're I'm in good company, am I right? Are you a fellow appreciator of only Sassone's 1990s? Fantastic for effort.
Speaker 3I would say yes and no. I would say that every fiber of my being wants me to to just love this movie. I think the major hindrance is that the quality that I mean I mean I mean the picture quality is so bad from the available sources that it does hinder the experience overall, because I think there would be so much more to talk about in terms of appreciation of the craft that went into the movie like and, and I really felt a little differently and maybe I was taken in by the propaganda from the doomed documentary afterwards. But I kind of felt bad for the movie afterwards that I should respect it perhaps a little bit more than it deserves because of how much effort they actually tried to put into it rather than what is actually expressed on screen. So I would say yes overall, yes, and it's not without its problems.
Speaker 2Can you explain to the people what this is? What are we talking about? It's vlogging time.
Speaker 3Well, I think this is the best terminology that I found for this is this is described as an Ashcan film, which is a terminology that's usually used for comic books, and what that means is that it is a work that is produced solely to maintain a copyright hold on a franchise. So this was done back even in the golden age of comic books. Famously, fawcett Comics, who made Captain Marvel, created a Ashcan version of Wiz Comics to maintain the copyright before the actual publication of the book, and it's done in movies very rarely, but this is probably the most famous example. So, to circle back, what this means is that there was a German film producer named Bernd Eichinger who somehow managed to wrangle the rights the film rights for the Fantastic Four from Marvel, I believe in the 80s.
Speaker 2Which wouldn't have been tough, because they were selling the rights left and right, to bail themselves out of the hole they were in, correct?
Speaker 3Exactly, probably sweet talked Stan Lee into saying you know, he had the goods to make a $30 million Fantastic Four movie and he says that sounds like a great idea, let's do it. So this guy held on to the rights for almost 10 years and it sounds like the 10-year option is when the deal is about to expire. So he starts basically either you use it or lose it. So he did not have the money to make this movie. It was really estimated that it would take $30 million and so, rather than losing the property outright when he knew that there was potentially some way he would get a deal later on with 20th Century Fox, he convinced Roger Corman, the king of low-budget exploitation films, to give him a million dollars and to produce this movie and from every other source that's out there. Everyone else was unaware that this was the plan. The plan from everyone else's perspective was that this was going to be a real movie that would be released to the public, but through other machinations that occurred afterwards, it was basically shelved and or destroyed.
Speaker 2That would be a real shame if it was destroyed. So, basically, this movie. In my opinion, it's obviously very difficult to actually sit down and enjoy it, but I think, from my perspective, you can hunt around a lot for a copy of this film and for a long time it was available sort of on the comic book trading floor market where you could buy a vhs copy, right alongside the star wars holiday special and other, you know, forgotten gems or buried gems I don't know if that's a gem is up for debate and um and uh. Now, with the magic of the internet, we can kind of see it. We watched I think both of us watched a version that's available on the internet archive which was superior than whatever you found on YouTube, correct?
Speaker 3Yeah, the YouTube version is actually abysmal. It's way worse than the internet archive version, and it has, I believe, french subtitles on it too.
Speaker 2Yeah, Ryan alluded to the fact that it might have been destroyed.
Speaker 3Avia rod claimed that he burned the negative right I wouldn't put it back, I would not put it past him if that were to be the case, I'd be very upsetting.
Speaker 2So we also, in conjunction with discussing this movie, watched a very um interesting documentary doomed, in which the cast and some of the crew are reunited for a documentary which they discuss the process of making this thing, and they're able to use snippets of the film in the context of that documentary and those look much better.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 2They look like a very high-quality VHS copy.
Speaker 3I wish that was more. Well, because remember the copy that we're seeing has been VHSed into oblivion, so it's been copied and copied and copied over and over and it degrades every single time after that. So I mean, that's how I first encountered it is like you described it, a convention scene where it's on the table with many other weird unreleased or television movie adaptations of comics that you're like completely astonished that even exists, like the Nick Fury agent of shield with David Hasselhoff, or the doctor strange TV movie, all things like that.
Speaker 2Something interesting. I was going to talk about the cast.
Speaker 3So this movie really has no notable cast members or notable crew, necessarily, but yeah, they're kind of like people that you, you see it and you're like, oh, I sort of I've heard that name or maybe I've seen them in this, but again, no marquee people at all.
Fantastic Four's Hidden History
Speaker 2And it was directed by a guy named Oli Sasson who then went on to do a lot more films for Roger Corman. But I will say this I think the cast acquits themselves nicely and I just wanted to bring this up real quick and then we'll get into talking about the movie you mentioned, a film like doctor strange tv. Alex hyde white, who played uh, mr fantastic in the film, in this version his first one, his second acting gig of all time do you know what it was?
Speaker 3oh yes, captain, roll in, captain america too. Death too soon. My favorite with who?
Speaker 2miguel, captain America 2. Death Too Soon. My favorite With who? Miguel.
Speaker 3Christopher Leas Miguel, the Master of Disguise.
Speaker 2The Master of Disguise. Okay, anyway, ryan, you're a Fantastic Four fan, you're a comic book fan. What did you think of this movie?
Speaker 3So, like I said, it is a mixed bag overall and I feel like, yes, I did enjoy it, but there are a mixed bag overall and I feel like, yes, I did enjoy it, but there are a lot of problems. And, like I was saying, I think if we could actually see the movie properly, it would change the experience entirely and be a much more fun, engaging, kind of like magical experience, because then you would see it in all its glory, because for a movie like this, that any of these Roger Corman movies that are very low budget, on you know, shoestring, kind of the appreciation and enjoyment factor comes from, kind of examining it on on that level, on a technical level, and seeing how things were made and how they're doing this, and you can appreciate like, oh, that's, that's a really nice set for what they came up with here. Or these costumes are nice, this you're. You can't. Everything is obscured by the bad picture quality, so you have to take that into account and that does hinder the experience.
Speaker 3I would say, um, but overall, let's start with the good. The good the casting is excellent, the casting is spot on. I mean, these actors were just ripe for the picking. They look like they literally came off the panel from a Fantastic Four comic book. So that's a huge plus right there.
Speaker 3Two especially Doctor Doom and the Thing their costumes are way beyond the level that you would expect for a movie like this show what the potential. If just a little bit more money had been spent or a little bit more care from the producing side had been applied, this would have been a really good, if not decent, movie. So I'll say those are the great things. The bad things I think the script is ultimately a huge let down and I think that if I'm able to forgive, I'm able to forgive poor special effects that are constrained by a budget and or the time in which they were created. But I think having a script that actually has something to say or something to do with the characters can make up for that, and here it is rather basic and uninteresting, and that's my complaint about the movie.
Speaker 2Okay, that's interesting. I had a different perspective on the script from you because I take into consideration the idea that the person writing the script had to know the budget constraints, and the really amazing thing to me about this is that you had a group of people who are making this movie who actually did strive to make a very faithful, fantastic four movie visually and, I think, tonallyally, which they strike perfectly, and I completely enjoyed it. I don't see that there were any story beats here that were skipped in, something like the 2005 version. I mean, it's basically one for one for the most part and it's actually a little bit better in terms of accuracy.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 2So I will tell you this. I was impressed. This is a movie that's an hour and a half long. The plot premises is essentially this we're introduced to Reed Richards in college, where he's a big, smart brainiac and he has a friend, Victor, Victor Von Doom, and they try to make a thing that's going to shoot. You know, shoots lightning into the air, and I was very impressed with their laboratory set and the giant gizmo that they had set up for him. And I was very impressed with their laboratory set and the giant gizmo that they had set up for him. Now this is a movie where we don't see the Fantastic Four in costume and in action until about 15 minutes before the end of the movie.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'll give him a little credit. It's like 50 minutes in Now. I was astounded. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3They do not wear the costumes. Everyone wear the costume until the last 15 minutes when they storm Doom Citadel. Okay, everyone wear the costume until the last 15 minutes when they storm doom Citadel Okay, new storm wears the costume earlier than that.
Speaker 2Okay. Well, I will say that also the fantastic four didn't wear their costume until issue three of the comic book as well. So I think maybe they're a little closer to the original vision of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby than perhaps you. But but anyway, I was astounded at how much they were able to jam into this, and I thought the script was very economical, because obviously you can't make a fucking fantastic four movie that's two and a half hours long with an hour of them in their costumes running around doing fights. So they had to stretch it out. And they stretch it out by giving us doom's origin story at the beginning, um, and they also introduce us to the relationship between Ben, sue, reed and Johnny.
Speaker 2Right, and you know this has always been a problem in the comics how do you get all these four disparate goofballs into space? Reed's going to space Fine, that makes sense. He's a scientist. Why the hell would I mean Ben coming with him? Okay, in the comic books the explanation was that they were old war buddies, correct, and he was always. He's the. He's one of the best pilots too. He's always a pilot. That's also also correct. Now, I don't recall why sue and john.
Speaker 3I believe sue was just because it was his wife or whatever she. She went along yeah I could be wrong and I think johnny was the backup pilot. Is that not correct?
Speaker 2I don't recall exactly none of that is spelled out in the first issue. I read the first five issues of the comic yesterday, oh, and I hadn't read them in a long time but at the first, one offers almost zero explanation for why any of this occurs, including the idea that they have to go into space. Right now we got to break in and go into the spaceship. They just kind of say. They literally say there's a line that we have to do it tonight or the commies will beat us to space yeah, it was a space race thing where they had to beat the russians into space.
Speaker 2Yes, can't do that and also I always thought a good out because there's been a lot of like a retroactive continuity on this to sort of spell out the idea of why they went. I think that in later iterations sue is a scientist also, which I think makes a little more sense um, there's no, there's no justification, otherwise you know yeah exactly, and in the movie it's, it's, it's really.
Speaker 2It's probably the worst handled element of the plot, because you know what the story is is that reed and ben live at a boarding house while they're in college and sue is a little girl, and then fast forward 10 years. Then they come back to like, ask them to go to space mrs storm, can sue and johnny come to space with us? Oh, like I got, I got what they were going for there.
Speaker 2Yeah, that was a big old cringe also even more was look at you, the fantastic four that was brutal from Mrs Storm at the baked goods pie, you know sunlight window, boarding house and. But then what happens is Susan Storm, who's played by future soap opera actress. What's?
Speaker 3her name.
Speaker 2Rebecca Stab stab me right in the heart because she is such a cutie in this movie. Right, yeah, she comes down the stairs and reads like whoa, and then they go into space and I thought for the most part, dude, I was just thinking about all the things that they jammed into this for a million bucks. It's pretty impressive it is.
Speaker 3It is I and I agree with you. I think the space scenes actually at the beginning of the movie are are better than a lot of the other scenes. The um, I think it's where it drags in the middle is where I have a problem and it just kind of slows down kind of the stuff with the mole man, jeweler guy kind of goes a little bit too much and I'm like can we spend more time with Dr Doom perhaps, because this is a much more interesting performance doom, perhaps because this is a much more interesting performance.
Speaker 2That's what I, that's what I appreciated on the movie's level is that, like they were able to make a fairly true, faithful, fantastic four movie while leaning on elements from the comics that were complementary to roger corman's shtick. You know the things that he could do well. So, oh, mole man, you mean like this subterranean guy and in the sewer and he's a weird creepy leprechaun style dude we could do that. We did that two weeks ago on whatever movie Carnosaur 5, right? Oh, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3So the shoehorning in of the Mole man character who, by the way, they had to rename the jeweler because I guess they didn't have the rights to the Mole man. They were unsure. They were unsure, according to the documentary, because it wasn't explicitly stated in the deal which characters were included, so they didn't want to take a chance.
Speaker 2Let's imagine going to court as like the plaintiff and being like they stole Mole man. I own Mole man, the memorable character of Mole man.
Speaker 3But that always reminds me of the thing when they used to write the news articles after Disney acquired Marvel and they're like we've just bought 9 000 characters and they're like okay, what are you gonna make the aunt may movie? You know it's like what, which characters are of actually a value here?
Speaker 2exactly exactly.
Speaker 3Mole man, though perhaps could be a value to some old man is a good is actually a good villain when, when done properly, and he's really important to the.
Speaker 2You know classic silver age, fantastic four stories I mean this first issue there he's the first villain, absolutely, and you know what? The way that he was jammed in it reminded me a lot of, and the way that a lot of things are jammed into this movie and we move from one extreme to the next. And it reminded me a lot of reading one of stan and jack's early comics. I mean, I was rereading the first appearance, doom, which I didn't have much of a memory about. I knew that they met him and he kidnapped him and they went to their castle or whatever, but I forgot that a large chunk of that story was Dr Jim kidnapping them because he wanted them to go back in time to steal Blackbeard's treasure.
Speaker 2So read thing and torch have to dress up as pirates and steal the tree, and torch have to dress up as pirates and steal the tree. You know what I mean. So Stan was always jamming like three different things into one, or Jack, you know whoever you want to attribute that to into a comic, right? So I was like, okay, we're a little bit familiar territory here.
Speaker 3Go ahead. They didn't do that for the movie Cause that actually probably would have been cheaper than doing all this.
Speaker 2It'd be like turtles, right? Yeah, no, absolutely that would kind of have been fun. But you know, I found myself really enjoying it. I thought there were moments where you know, whenever you're watching these low-budget movies and things don't exactly go off, if you know enough about how this works, you know what they're going for. Yeah, you know. So, like the whole bit where, after they crash land and they go and they're going for yeah, you know, so, like the whole bit, where, after they crash land and they go and they're being tested by the laboratory doctor and he's making a little comedic asides about all of their powers and his quest to draw their blood, which is difficult because one of them's invisible, one's a giant rock. One catch on fire. It didn't exactly land, but I know what they're going for, and that's my experience in watching this, and so so I found it to be a lively, fun, little, entertaining picture.
Speaker 3Although the scene after that I believe it's immediately after that was much more comedic for my money about. I don't know if it was intended to or not. When, that said, same doctor is now reporting back to Dr Doom about what he found out and then Dr Doom just starts caressing the guy's face with his glove and he's like he's like strangling him a little bit, like in a playful way, and it's like this is really weird. I don't know if they're intentionally going for some kind of comedic thing or this is meant to be intimidating and scary or what, but I was kind of laughing at that.
Speaker 2Well, I think they were. What they were going for was like a Roy Batty, eldon Tyrell kind of thing, right when he jams his fingers into his eyes. So maybe that what you were supposed to. You know, use your metadata from other movies to sort of like fill in the blanks on that one and insert for fear.
Speaker 3But you didn't experience that I did not think it was scary at all. I thought it was actually kind of funny Sorry.
Speaker 2Well, the other tough part too is that the guy playing Dr Doom, they didn't, they didn't dub over his mask, so he's just like, oh, yes, fuck the fantastic four, yes, I will find them, you know. And yeah, they even skipped an opportunity to dub the guy, the dub thing good well, they didn't.
Speaker 3They didn't have the money or the time after, by the time that they were actually going to do it, that was, it was done. They weren't. They weren't interested in making any more additions or or corrections the film. So that's why that. But I do want to comment about the guy that does play Dr Doom, joseph Culp, who's the son of Robert Culp from I Spy. He's excellent in the movies.
Speaker 3This is one of the best Dr Doom portrayals. I mean it is the best Dr Doom live-action portrayal because, comparing it to the 2005 Julian McMahon version which, even though I'm a fan of that actor, that is not Dr Doom, and then the 2015 Josh Trank one, I don't even remember he was like some techno hacker or something like that. So this is like very classic. I mean the costume is spot on, it is. I mean I I really dig that costume a lot, it's spectacular.
Speaker 3And then they actually go through the bother unlike any other adaptation in live action of showing the true origin of dr doom, which is showing him and reed as, like you said, as university students together. So there is that history and connection there, rather than in the 2005 one where they're just like on the board together or something like that. I don't remember, but they're, they're right, they're kind of friends slash rivals. They have an accident, although they don't really play up the fact that doom blames reed for the accident, even though it's his own fault. I mean, they kind of hint a little bit at it, but they try to use it as a justification at the end.
Speaker 3But they didn't play it off well enough in the beginning for it to land and then they do show him, as they don't explicitly state him as the monarch of Latveria I don't believe, but he is has all these Latverian kind of goon squad that attend to him and and take care of him after the accident. They, you know, escort him away, um, under the cover of darkness that he's, pretend that he's dead, and then he has a castle. So I don't know where that came from, and otherwise that he's a, a Monarch.
Speaker 2I mean. That's why I've never I've always liked the idea of Reed referencing to his past and knowing Dr Doom as a real man, but I've never liked seeing his face, which Stan and Jack never showed. They always strayed away from him. He was always in silhouette. I've never liked this idea in the films and it was also in the 2004 version where we see Dr Doom as a hey, I'm Dr Doom, I'm a normal guy, victor Von Doom. And then all of a sudden he gets his face blown up and then now he's wearing a crazy suit.
Speaker 3The actor wants to be seen on screen I know that, but that's just unfortunate.
Speaker 2I think dr doom should be more mysterious I never liked. Now in this one I gave it a pass because you have to have some. You got to add some drama and filler and, by the way, I did appreciate that they didn't get dressed up in their costumes till the very end, because for me, fantastic four has always been like a character driven science fiction concept. So the fact that they withhold the superhero suits and they're trying to give you something that's going to keep you entertained, you know, without it being superheroes. So like you have a lot of great set pieces. You have a experiment gone wrong, you have a trip to space and a crash landing, and I know that's all going to be skipped over because people you know studios now will say no one wants to see that shit anymore, they've already seen it. So we'll just, you know, we'll skip forward ahead. I guarantee this new movie will do that Right.
Speaker 3But I don't want to see the origin again in the new movie.
Speaker 2I mean, it's never been done right and it could be mine for a lot of drama.
Speaker 3Yeah, my problem is always when you have to start at the origin, then we constantly then have to see every detail, every excruciating detail. After that, how do they form the team and how did they get the Baxter building and how did they set up their bank account and their business? You know like I don't care.
Speaker 3I want to see them tackle a actual cosmic threat and not have to deal with all the minutia that came before you can do that in a comic book, that's fine, but in a movie where you know we need to see something different, for instance in the new movie which hopefully we are going to see with, with a true you know, true to comic, accurate galactus, I mean, as we're supposedly promised. So we'll see. Well, I don't have a problem with anything else that you said. By the way, I don't have a major problem that they withheld the costumes for the last 15 minutes. I'm just pointing that out, that that did occur and that's how it happened.
Speaker 3But I do think I do take issue with what you said is that Fantastic Four is a character driven drama, science fiction drama, and I agree I don't think that that's evident in this film. I don't think that the characters are fleshed out to any degree that can make up for the kind of bare bones story which I'm fine with too. I'm fine with having like a plot that is basically like mad villain wants to blow up the city, like I'm totally fine with that. But you have to then add something else, meaning the characters have to be kind of more than two-dimensional and or the dialogue needs to have some kind of flair to it, and that is where it's very lacking in this movie it did not have there no flair in the dialogue, but um you didn't want any character can say any line of dialogue and interchange it, and that's the problem.
Speaker 3And and it's interesting because then on internet archive they have the 67 fantastic Four Hanna-Barbera cartoon and I was like, oh, let me watch the Galactus episode again because it's been a while. And then as soon as that episode begins, the thing starts talking and it's a specific cadence of dialogue that you would only hear from the thing. And it's so. That show was written as a, you know, accurate representation of what the true characters sound like, and that's what I'm talking about is missing from this movie okay, I can see where you're coming from.
Speaker 2However, I think that the actors are strong enough that they make it work. Um, and you know what? I'm sure that you would have. I think that uh how about alicia masters?
Speaker 3oh no, I dropped my base and it's ruined okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2I was going to say you were asking for a little something extra and you got it in the form of the jeweler who we spend entirely too much time with. Yes, he kidnaps alicia, like they just crash landed and they've got these spectacular powers. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool, and then cut to the jeweler. I'm gonna kidnap alicia, masters, and she's gonna be the queen of my underground trash pile. I'm like what? And I'm like I don't care. How's this gonna fit into the? What are you? And I'm looking at the timer. I'm like there's like 45 minutes left in this fucking movie. What are we doing here? We?
Speaker 2gotta have that filler truly, truly, but it was. And then also the thing about this and I don't know if this is a problem of the VHS copy being so bad, did you find. At times you were confused about where they were. I thought that at certain- Not particularly.
Speaker 3No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough, but like they would be in an underground area fighting jeweler and then Dr Doom would show up.
Speaker 3Well, dr Doom did fighting jeweler and then dr doom would show up. And then dr doom did show up at the jeweler's lair because he wanted that special crystal, that okay, and then they fight him and they get.
Speaker 2They fight dr doom a little bit at the the, at the jeweler's cave, and then they go back to the baxter building yes, and there's a decent little model, fantastic car that flies that was baxter building. Yeah, it's well done. And then they go back to doom's castle where they have it out with look, we can't afford doom bots, but we do have a lot of guys wearing green capes that's fine too.
Speaker 3There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with the special effects that, as primitive as they are, it looks like, basically like cell animation. I don't know what. What they were using for, for, for, uh, the fantastic car and later the human torch fighting the giant laser or whatever. But I can buy into all that, that's fine.
Speaker 2Yeah, I thought that every every time they did powers, I was. I was impressed that Sue storm got to do her force field.
Speaker 3Yeah, I didn't think they would give her that.
Speaker 2And then you know, obviously, master, fantastic is he's limited to basically leg and arm stretching. Yeah, Because you know the guy. I mean, the guy's not going to turn into a parachute or something. How are we going to do that? Right, the thing is the guy that by far gets the most action moments, because it's just a big dude in a suit. I'll be at a good suit with a nice animatronic face so he can say it's clobbering time.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, the suit is exquisite and honestly, I don't know if you would agree I think it looks better than the Michael Chiklis version from the 2005 film.
Speaker 2I wouldn't go that far.
Speaker 3Oh, come on. That looks way cooler. That looks way cooler than the Michael Chiklis outfit.
Speaker 2I think that there's something about what you're saying. I think that it's a difference in um preference for design, but I think that his costume, that the thing in this film he looked a little bit too much like like enemy mine or like, or like a like a kind of a dinosaur style, like alien I felt it looked more like a kirby drawing to me than the other.
Speaker 3Yeah, film version he looks more like the original first few issue Kirby drawings, before this sort of big eyebrow was innovated, and it's very expressive too, which is quite remarkable and that's what I really found captivating about is that the expressions of the emotions are able to be captured to a certain degree.
Speaker 2Yeah, I get your point there and I I thought that there were a few clever things with mr fantastic. I thought when he stretched his arm it looked fairly good. Um, I just want to reiterate again I don't I think that a modern viewing. This is the most comic, accurate.
Speaker 3Sue, storm, how about in the limo at the end of the movie the big wavy hand. That was good it's the most comic accurate fantastic four movie. No, not the big wavy hand. That was good. It's the most comic accurate Fantastic Four movie. No, not the big wavy hand, but the rest of them, the entire movie. Yeah, I mean I have problems with the movie, but yeah, it's definitely way more accurate than the 2005 movie, or certainly the 2015 one.
Speaker 2I mean, I think that she's a very comic, accurate Sue Storm because she is so docile. I guess I'm sure the character has been updated somewhat to reflect our modern thinking, but if you read the early Kirby Fantastic Four, it's very much. Stu is always the damsel in distress, she's deferential to Reed in all cases and just sort of this cute, bright-eyed little girl who can go invisible. And this Rebecca Stab did an incredible job. She's got a cute little haircut too. She's really quite gorgeous. This like cute, bright eyed little girl who can, you know, go invisible. And this this, uh, rebecca stab did an incredible job. She got a cute little haircut too.
Speaker 3She's really quite gorgeous um, I thought the movie's credit, though they do not play sue storm as the damsel in distress in this movie, though that is no, no, alicia, so that was that was it's. It is important because she is a heroic character. She should not be just placed as the damsel in distress. I don't think she should be the team leader, as it is implied in the new movie. We will, we will wait and reserve judgment until we see it, but, um, that's my thoughts on that.
Character Design and Comic Accuracy
Speaker 2Well, you want to make me look at, to be like like the sexist here. Like you know, I'm just, I'm just saying, but no, I found it to be. I thought the kid that played Johnny was great. He had like a lot of youthful exuberance. He had that swoop blonde hair. You know, it was a lot of fun. Now here's the big question I have for you on this. When you watch the Doom documentary and they talk to all the long-suffering actors and crew of this movie, the one big takeaway seems to have been and their biggest regret is that maybe this movie, had it come out, it might have catapulted us all to a different level in our career. We could have said that we made this movie. Implied in that is, they're thinking that perhaps it would have found an audience or made some money or been a relatively modest hit. Now, do you believe, had this film been released in the theaters around VHS, that it would have been a hit?
Speaker 3No, I don't think so, Given the landscape at the time and other much, much better movies that we have discussed in a recent show, the Pulp superhero show, for instance. Those movies are all vastly superior, just not only on a technical level but also on a story level, and those did not capture or connect with audiences. So I don't really see how this would have either, especially how low budget it is.
Speaker 2I agree with you. I mean, it didn't do a whole lot for Matt Salinger's career to play Captain America in 1990. And would you say that these films are of comparable value?
Speaker 3I don't haven't seen that one.
Speaker 2I don't think I've only seen either, so could you no, sorry I haven't seen that one.
Speaker 3Yes, it's jesus neither of I. Yeah sorry, you know these movies are not uh, not uh worth uh, but I think I think you're right.
Speaker 2I mean, they all speak of it very lovingly and to a certain extent I think there is a lot to love, but there's just not enough movie or story there that I think it would have ever broken out to have been a popular film.
Speaker 3Well, that's why, also, I said I think I was a little bit brainwashed by the propaganda of that documentary, because they're all speaking with such earnestness and such fondness, for we were trying to make the best Fantastic Four movie ever and it was taken away from us and you're like, yeah, this was really good. How dare they.
Speaker 2And then you're like well, the movie.
Speaker 3If you went and sat down and watched the movie again, you'd probably be a little bit bored. But again, like I said, if there was a pristine high-def version, went and sat down and watched the movie again and probably be a little bit bored. But again, like I said, if there was a like pristine high def version of this movie, I think it would.
Speaker 2Would change the equation entirely and I'm shocked that there's not. I mean, do you think it's that honest that it was destroyed? I mean I don't know why they would have to destroy it. I don't know everything about you know um copyright law, but I can't imagine that there's this loophole where, if you want to keep hold of the rights, you just make something and then don't release it. That counts.
Speaker 3You know? Yeah, because I believe he then sold. They did sign something with 20th Century Fox after that to have another deal started, but I would not put it. I mean again, who owns the movie? Who actually owns the movie at this point? Did avia rod buy it himself and then does he own it? Did it get co-opted by disney, by fox?
Speaker 2I have no idea right, like if you, if you put it out on dvd with some lawyer, with some you know fourth circuit judge, in like portland, be like, oh sorry, you lost the rights to the fantastic four because you released this movie from 1990 and uh, you know, come on like you know what would happen and also it's just a matter of the fact that disney has no incentive to release this movie.
Speaker 3They're not like other studios, like if warner brothers, for instance, or universal perhaps own this movie, they would send it out through warner archive or they distribute it to someone else and they put it out through Kino Lorber studio classics, put a high def release out there and make some money, make some quick money. No one, no, no loss. But Disney doesn't care about stuff like that. As we've seen, they don't really value the back catalog of anything, even if they do own it. To then put money into restoring it and distributing it, it's just not not even not even worth it to them to even think about, in my opinion that's a real shame, because I can't think of any other comparable films to where they just won't release them.
Speaker 3You know, I can't think of anything well, the the looney tunes movie that uh was, uh, the coyote versus acme, which is apparently going to be released now, finally. But those two looney tunes movies that were, that were was, uh, the coyote versus acme, which is apparently going to be released now, finally. But those two looney tunes movies that were that were made in the last couple years, uh, those were, those were destined to be in the same category but the earth blew up, finally did get a release, and kaito versus acme is uh, maybe with a batgirl.
Speaker 2Batgirl would be the comparable example if I ever because he's the light of day I was thinking um, but that was for a tax write-off purposes, and that's just insane that they made that batgirl movie with michael keaton in it and then shelved it hey, that's the same concept, more or less.
Speaker 3I mean, this was not done for tax purposes, but it was meant to, you know, not stain the brand, which is ironic because the 2005 fantastic four movie was not all that great. Yeah, it was like a minor hit, but it didn't didn't do wonders for for brand recognition or creating a long-lasting franchise, and then the 2015 movie was a huge failure oh god, I almost even totally forgot that even happened oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 3That was just a bizarre experience overall, and now we are. Do you notice? Isn't it weird, though? The 10-year cycles of the Fantastic Four we're talking about this movie was 1994, then 2005, 2015, and now 2025,. Here we are again with another Fantastic Four movie. We're like doomed to repeat this 10-year cycle. Man Pun intended. Are they ever going to get it right to repeat this 10?
Speaker 2year cycle man.
Speaker 3Unintended.
Speaker 2Are they ever going to get it right? Trembling color, says Dr Doom, was the best design. Still wish they'd, mike Tim, though. Yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree, it would have been a lot cooler had they done that. Also, the Dr Doom the the. The one thing I really appreciated was they put that little Kirby piece in his mouth that looks. One thing I really appreciated was they put that little Kirby piece in his mouth that looks like a razor or something. That's like a little tiny square in his mouth. I was like, oh, that's cool, but his cape. I couldn't get over his cape. Bro, give the guy a cape that actually looks like it weighs, like something.
Speaker 3This just looked like a little, you know, Halloween costume. I think it looked totally fine.
Speaker 2I was totally excited for this movie totally fine, I was totally shiny for this movie.
Speaker 3Also I just love any scene of him just sitting on the throne in a in a giant throne room like we're Ming the merciless or Fu Manchu or whoever. It had a very pulpy kind of matinee even Saturday morning, in a good sense feel to it, and that's that's what I like about the potential of a movie like this is that we had the, the intention or the potential to do something along the lines of that, taken seriously, although they didn't, they didn't maximize it to, to where it could be, you know, actually good right yes bad guys are a lost art, I agree bad guy layers.
Speaker 2That's a great point. Yeah, we don't see many bad guy layers anymore.
Speaker 3That's a great point. Yeah, we don't see many bad guy layers anymore. That's always the fun in these types of movies is you cut back to the villain scheming in their layer, talking to their henchmen, and they usually have the most you know, kind of decked out, elaborate setup going on. I mean, look at the pulp movies that we talked about when we talked in the Phantom. How about that? Cutting back to I don't remember his name, drax, I think. Uh, cutting back to his layer where he's scheming, that is, that's some of the most fun in the movie.
Speaker 2Lex Luthor, yeah Lex.
Speaker 3Luthor and his underground subterranean layer flirting with Miss Tess Mocker.
Speaker 2You know those are those are the fun scenes, villain, and this movie does deliver that. Uh well, do we have any? We'll take some questions from the chat. I guess I'm kind of exhausted on my thoughts on this movie, which is unfortunate.
Speaker 3I have, I have some other, I have some other things also by all means for dr doom, I thought the best moment was when he does confront the, the jeweler, the mole man, and he pulls alicia masters out as a hostage and he's like don't come any closer, I'm killer.
Speaker 2And he's like go right ahead yeah, I don't care, I don't know who she is like, I couldn't care less.
Speaker 3And then he rescues alicia and then, when the fantastic four arrive, he grabs her and uses her as a hostage for himself it's like that was, that was probably one of the best moments for me.
Speaker 2That was cute. I was just astounded by the likeness of this guy, joseph Hyde White or Professor Hyde White or whatever his name was, who you know, who played Mr Fantastic. He looked just like him, he sounded like him, he was earnest. That's when we're all I'll fight you on. You can interchange all the dialogue. I don't believe it, though. There was one moment in the movie that really rang sour to me. That was like I, just I. That's one I couldn't forgive is this after they crash land, all three of them emerge and they're like the thing human, torch and reed. And they're like oh, can you believe it? We're alive, this is great. And I'm like is anyone gonna ask about sue? They don't say shit. And then she just shows up and she's like oh, I'm here. What, oh, Sue, we can't see you.
Speaker 2But I thought that Reed would be like Where's Sue, have a little drama or something going on, but instead it's just Johnny being like. Oh yeah. We're live and I'm like, dude, what the hell. Sue is probably burnt to a crisp. Go deep for her body. Um, I don't know, but I thought he was terrific as mr fantastic. You know what. The guy that played him in the 2005 one wasn't so bad he was a little stiff, a little stiff he was a little stiff.
Speaker 3Chris evans is not good in that and uh, chris evans is way, way overrated as the human torch and it's just obnoxious the performance. This is a much better, you know interpretation. As for as little as Human Torch actually does in this movie, it's kind of like a playful, jokey character, but not meant to be so off-putting because they're repulsive. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, that's the one thing you miss in the Budget Constraints. The idea that I always thought was fun was the Fantastic Four In Marvel. They're always sort of unique, like a famous family who the public loves and adores, and um, you miss that in this film where, uh, they can go out and sort of like introduce themselves to the world, which I always thought was a good element, no matter what movie it is. Uh, even the 2005. Uh, muth muck thader, even the 2005. Uh, muth muck thader. Ali says hi all, I'm a big fan of the channel. Well, thanks, man, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 3Really appreciate it. That's nice of you to say. I also think for for human torch. He should be the coolest character in the room, meaning like super cool guy and the like we were saying. The chris evans version was just like annoying. Get away from me, yeah annoying, like just like textbook.
Speaker 2Oh, we have to have a cool character, like I think he's introduced in that movie, by like making out with some girl in a on a motorcycle or something like yeah oh, he's like wild and crazy. Basically, yeah, frat boy, um obnoxious level he's like an annoying frat boy in that like and and it's like dumb. You know that's not, that's not what Johnny should be.
Speaker 3No, I mean, it seems like I mean again, we're basing it off a trailer for the new movie, but the tone seems to be struck right, at least you know for the new film or the new film We'll see.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm interested in seeing it. The thing I'm most excited about is the 1960s setting. Yeah, I really like that. Now, hearing that they're going to be in Avengers, doomsday, or you know, I'm like, oh no, they have to, like, travel forward in time. We have to do that. You know, are they going to have to come into the future? Like? I don't want to do that, I want to be in the 60s.
Speaker 3Well, hopefully they can do other. You know movies, sequels out of sequence or whatever. Do you have any other fond memories of Fantastic Four comics? Were you, did you read a lot or not, or?
Speaker 2yeah, I did. I had the Marvel Masterworks Fantastic Four, volume one and then I was also able to pick up I remember this was very exciting for me. I was able to pick up the Strange Tales, human Torch, marvel Masterworks collection. You remember Strange Tales, so Human Torch, the strange tales, human torch, marvel masterworks collection. You remember strange tales. So human torch became a very popular sort of teen character, almost like spider-man, and he was given his own comic book, strange tales, after the superheroes really hit hard, was repurposed from a magazine about thume, the giant rock monster, to into the stories of the human torch and he had a lot of great little fun villains and lots of, uh, guest appearances. I remember my most favorite villain he fought was a paste pot pete. I always was like strangely interested in that character, how he just shot glue at everybody and they stuck to a wall, um, but that was fun to get a little side adventures of the human torch.
Speaker 3And then I was always a big, you know wasn't there also the asbestos man, another Human Torch villain?
Speaker 2Wouldn't shock me. Wouldn't shock me, but I always liked the character of Johnny Storm. I remember being upset as a kid when he got hit over the head with a beer bottle during Civil War by an angry citizen and he had to go to the hospital. Remember that in the Civil War comic.
Speaker 3Yeah, I try to block Civil War out of my memory, you didn't like that. Civil War the. The comic is terrible yeah, the comic.
Speaker 2What are you talking about? You think it's terrible?
Speaker 3it, the ramifications, the ramifications of civil war just ruined the marvel universe, in my opinion. So I okay, no I'm not a huge fan of that story.
Speaker 2I think you don't think it's good.
Speaker 3I think it wrecked a lot more than it actually helped dude okay, I don't know about you.
Speaker 2That came out when I was in eighth grade and I was super into it and that whole summer I was buying all the extension comics. I was pumped to find out what happened. That was a story that really had me hooked. I loved civil war to this day and I I read it when it came out.
Speaker 3I was in high school and I enjoyed it at the time. But looking back, I mean that was kind of like the end. They didn't. They didn't understand how to pick up the pieces afterwards and it felt very cold. When you know Iron man and Captain America, they're just supposed to be friends again. There's no, there's no real makeup that actually was meaningful, or how do you come back from that so well?
Dr. Doom's Portrayal and Villainy
Speaker 2I had a subscription to captain america at the time and of course I was very upset when captain america died. But you know ed brie baker, when he fake died, I think, but he died for like three years he's dead.
Speaker 3For a while back in time didn't he but the magic? Yeah, that's something like.
Speaker 2I don't remember exactly actually who even killed him or what happened to him. I kind of forgot, but like um, I think it was a brainwashed sharon oh yeah, that's right. That's right. Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3Yes, I almost said sharon tate.
Speaker 2I'm sorry, sharon carter yeah, dr kavorkian into killing yes, dr fast, dr fastest into killing uh captain america.
Speaker 2She shot him on the courthouse steps, that's right. I forgot about that. I don't remember why he was traveling through time, though. Yes, dr Fast. Dr Fast is into killing Captain America. She shot him on the courthouse steps, that's right. I forgot about that. I don't remember why he was traveling through time, though. But I did like those comics where the focus shifted to Tony Stark, nick Fury, sharon Stone and Falcon and Winter Soldier for like a year and a half, and I thought that story was cool. They were trying to figure out what happened to Captain America, because I always loved Captain America's villains. I always loved Red Skull and the Serpent Society and Sin and Crossbones and Dr Faustus. I always thought those guys were great and it's been a real shame that they never came together as a big coterie of evil in any of the films. That's been a big sad thing for me.
Speaker 3But we talked about that, I think, and, yeah, fantastic. Four villains, though, are also, I think, underrated, and most of the talk never goes beyond dr doom or galactus, and that's a shame, because there's a lot of other interesting villains in the rogues gallery.
Speaker 3Talking about the mad submariner, well, the submariner, if you want to include him, yeah mole man, um claw, the, you know, the master of some murderous master of sound blastar, the living bomb burst a nihilist, both from the negative zone. They say the mad thinker already the red ghost, that's another good one you don't like any of these. You don't like any of these guys red ghost amazing super apes that all have the same powers as the Fantastic Four.
Speaker 2Yes, I remember that. I remember that yes.
Speaker 3Yes, the.
Speaker 2Super.
Speaker 3Skrull.
Speaker 2Super Skrulls are great. Also, this was a funny line I was reading issue two, where the Skrulls first appear right and at the end they send away the Skrull invasion and all that remains are the three initial Skrulls that came down to Earth. Reed Richards goes well, we're going to have to do something with you. I'm going to hypnotize you into thinking you're something else and you're going to change. He turns them into cows. Right, yes, but it was really hilarious. There were like three of these. They're the most pathetic looking little creepy aliens you've ever seen. And one of them says says, turn us into anything we hate. Being scrolls would be anything else. And then they hypnotize us into thinking they're cows and they're transformed into cows. I wonder if anyone's ever picked up that, that uh plot point and uh ran with it in in previous iterations of the comic I'm not that I'm aware of.
Speaker 3They did adapt that actually in the the 60s cartoon version. That's the end of the super scroll episode. They have transformed into a cow, yeah it's a clever ending actually so from from my own experience.
Speaker 3Uh, my biggest time reading the new fantastic four was was what you were describing a little bit during civil war the jms, the j michael straczynski run. That was probably when I started and then I kept on. After that, the best run, though, of the modern you know kind of post that was the jonathan hickman run, where he kind of changed the game entirely with fantastic four. That's when human torch they killed him. It was a stupid kind of thing, but what was interesting afterwards is that they put spider-man on the team and they created the future foundation.
Speaker 3They came out with cool new white futuristic outfits with a oh yeah cool design, you know the three black like hexagons or whatever, and the story took on a you know kind of vastly new, interesting avenues that had not been explored before. Now I don't know what they're doing. I really couldn't care less what they're doing in modern comics, but that was a good time. That was when I was in college.
Speaker 2Okay, this is a great. Uh, Mark Millar brought the cows back. He made the cows get eaten at a fast food restaurant and it made people crazy oh, I bet that's funny sort of grim.
Speaker 3But you know it's also really cool are the 70s before, so obviously everyone loves the john burn run from the 80s and of course, yeah, yeah, I've read some of that yeah, but the the 70s kind of like lost in the wilderness kind of time for the fantastic four, when stan and jack had finished, they did, like I think, 102 issues from the beginning until then and then it was just kind of rotating different writers of all the people you would, the usual suspects of you, who you would expect, like roy thomas or len ween or marv wolfman they all kind of came on and those are. Those are some pretty wild, just random adventures. Uh, there's a great compilation which is like the overthrow of doom, where doom changes the constitution of latveria that he has to give up the, he has to abdicate the throne at a certain point for, like, political reasons, and so he instills, he, he's, decides.
Speaker 3all of a sudden I'm going to introduce my son, victor von doom the second, and it turns out that it was actually just a clone of him that he's going to put as a fake person on the throne. It's just coming up with all these ridiculous stories, but they're fun to read.
Speaker 2That sounds really fun. I would be interested to read more Fantastic Four stuff because I always liked the art in the 70s, and then also the Thing 2-in-1 was a fun comic that I had a few pictures of as well. And then I wanted to show you this that I found at an old. I found this in South Dakota at a comic book store. This is a it's from Lancer Books. It's a republishing of a lot of Fantastic Four tales and they're published horizontally. If the audience can see.
Speaker 2Yeah, but in a little collector's album that I would imagine these were sold at regular bookstores, which is kind of fun. Yeah, cool, and they feature some of the highlight issues. And the cool reason I bought it was that it was obviously trying to appeal to normies. And the quote on the back is the campus craze that's sweeping the nation cool heroes, cool villains, cool plots, cool adventures. Comic book reading is in. Then the california pelican newspaper calls marvel the playboy of comicdom and we even get a blurb from the village voice here that talks about because that's a big element I talk about um, I think the ego inflation of Stan Lee was the kind of like hippie acid dropping, like postmodern culture taking up comics like on college campuses you know, very intelligent, smart, like things which you know what they are.
Speaker 2I mean they're great, I mean they're a lot of fun. But especially those first few early issues they're sort of very rudimentary. Even Kirby's art I don't think picks up really, until we really get into the run. I don't think he was treating it very seriously at the beginning.
Speaker 3This is still very prototypical at that time.
Speaker 2I mean, there was no, they don't even say Marvel.
Speaker 3Comics on those issues, if I recall. No, they don't. Yeah, they don't. They said the world's greatest comic magazine. In terms of adaptations, though in other media, the animation side is still vastly superior to anything live action that we've had for fantastic four. So I referenced the, the 1967 hannah barbara cartoon, which I think is still one of the best. They literally adapted those silver age, stan and jack stories pretty much verbatim. I mean, they condense them and, and you know, lean them down, but they're very, very good and certainly fared better in terms of animation in the 60s for marvel than than many of the other characters. Um, if you've ever seen any of the other marvel stuff in the 60s spider-man, it looks great compared to other the other characters who are produced by. I think it's like a studio called like grant ray lawrence or something like that, where they literally just had a xerox copy of a comic panel and move the mouth a little bit and then the arm would go, kind of like this.
Speaker 3So right as limited as hannah barbara's animation practices were, it's still vastly superior to any other marvel stuff coming out at that time and I've never actually seen those.
Speaker 2Can you buy those on dvd? Spider-man, fantastic four the 60s.
Speaker 3Spider-man was put out by disney back, oh, probably almost 20 years ago. At this point that box that's probably out of print. I have it though it's it's. It's not my favorite cartoon. I think people overpraise it as kind of like nostalgic, maybe nostalgic boomers or whatever. But the Fantastic Four cartoon is great. It's not available on any kind of physical media.
Speaker 2It is on the.
Speaker 3Internet Archive though.
Speaker 2Oh, is it really.
Speaker 3Yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 2I was just going to say my favorite Marvel cartoon. I think pre-'90s has always been.
Speaker 3Spider-man is amazing friends oh, of course, of course. Spider-man's amazing friends is excellent that's so good, yeah, um.
Speaker 2So what about the fantastic four 90s cartoon?
Speaker 3yeah, so totally mixed bag. The first season is garbage, uh, in the highest why, why, why is it so bad? So. So it's completely tonally um a mess. It's a mostly kind of campy jokey. It's very kiddy meaning like it's made for like infants, in terms of like, how, how complex the stories are.
Speaker 3Yes, it's very very bad yeah, the first episode recounts the origin of the fantastic four as they are on a talk show, celebrity talk show hosted by dick clark. Fun stuff really. The kids would really like. But the second scene, the animation, is also very poor. You should, you should, look up the theme song for the first season.
Speaker 3It's very catchy, it's a, it's a, got lyrics, it's uh, it's very hokey I'm gonna insert it the second season they revamped the entirety of the show animation, story team, everything, even some of the voices, and, uh, it's, it's exquisite, it's, it's excellent, high, high quality, top-notch 90s cartoon. Uh, you know, with introducing many new content introduced the inhumans, black panther, ego, the living, they're all there. There's crossovers with Ghost Rider and Thor.
Speaker 2So everything that you would want is in that second season, Fantastic Four was a big springboard in the comics for lots of great ideas. The Inhumans I totally forgot about Silver Surfer Inhumans, yep. And then also I remember when you read the early Stan and Jack books, like every character that they were launching with a new comic always had the fantastic four sort of kick it off and give them the blessing of. You know, spider-man had this issue on daredevil. Has it an issue to? The fantastic four drops in for a little appearance.
Speaker 3So it's sad, though, that they were not on. Spider-man is amazing friends. It's probably one of the only major Marvel characters that didn't make it on.
Speaker 2Did they have Human Torch or anybody? Come on, no, so.
Speaker 3Human Torch was famously excluded from that show. That was the original. Intent was to have Spider-Man, human Torch and Iceman. Somebody bought it right. Somebody had the rights. It wasn't James Cameron, I don't think so.
Speaker 2I think it was somebody, so that's why the Fantastic Four 70s cartoon had to have Herbie in it. Herbie the Robot.
Speaker 3The newest member of the group, as they call him. Now together with Herbie the Robot, the newest member of the group.
Speaker 1Now together with Herbie the Robot, the newest member of the group.
Speaker 3Which is the absolute worst cartoon. I actually have been re-watching it. I thought about maybe toying with it. That's the one you sent me, the famous Magneto meme.
Speaker 2Oh, that's so good.
Fantastic Four's Comic Book Legacy
Speaker 3Yeah, that's where that comes from. That's so funny. That's where. And I watched that episode again and it is horrendous. It's like I am Magneto I do not wait for traffic. And it's like I am magneto, I do not wait for traffic. And it's like look at these pathetic mortals as they sit in traffic. I will merely hover above them based and he's like the elevator's like you can't use that elevator. That's the fantastic force special service elevator. And he's like I do not care to wait for an elevator I am magneto.
Speaker 2Oh sorry, that's funny.
Speaker 3The only thing good about that show, though, is the voice cast is pretty good. Um, so it's uh. Ted cassidy does the thing in that show. If he's lurched from you know, lurch from the adams family sure you're Okay, so he does that. It's not as good as the original fan, uh, Hanna-Barbera. One, though, where um Paul freeze, who I mentioned in our war of the worlds talk did the voice. So, there are really good voices in there.
Speaker 2Well, I was going to say, um, we're still planning on doing Bela Lugosi. Yeah. We're still planning on doing. Well, we haven't told anybody about our fun William Shatner themed episode that we want to do.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think that will be a good one to do. Are we going to do that after?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I'm going to humor you. I'm going to force myself to watch Bela Lugosi meets a Brooklyn gorilla.
Speaker 3Yeah, With our Lewis and Martin imitators. Imposters in the movie.
Speaker 2Just horrific, it was a tough, tough watch.
Speaker 3Yeah, it might be the toughest watch of the whole gig here I did say that, as an admirer of Bela Lugosi to the nth degree, that movie is a very, very tough watch.
Speaker 2Why does Trembling Colors say Tony Danz as the thing? Is that something I nth degree? Uh, that movie is a very, very tough watch. Why does trembling colors say tony danz as the thing is something?
Speaker 3that's something I missed I'm not familiar with that one, but we didn't talk about the thing's most infamous animated incarnation, which is in the 70s. Hannah barbara made their own cartoon the thing, and it was paired with fred flintstone and barney rubble. For an hour, fred and barney, fred and barney meet the thing. It's a real, real cartoon.
Speaker 2Yeah but what they didn't actually meet though there was, it was like the thing and like some kid, right yes, so.
Speaker 3So it was basically the way that hannah robera marketed a lot of shows in the 70s is they would package together two things for an hour, and so they and they'd call it, you know, the Richie Rich, scooby Doo show, for instance, and they never met. It was just two Richie Rich half hour and Scooby Doo half hour. So this was a Fred and Barney Flintstones half an hour and then the thing for a half an hour. But the thing cartoon was completely divorced from anything related to the Fantastic Four. Thing cartoon was completely divorced from anything related to the Fantastic Four. This was a teenager named Benji Grimm who had a special ring that allowed him to turn into the Thing and he would say Thing ring, do your thing, thing ring, do your thing.
Speaker 1I'm gonna go for a new track record and he would transform into the thing oh man, these are online too, so you can, you can look these up online.
Speaker 3Yeah, I used to watch these on boomerang back in the day and I would be like what the hell is this what year is this? This is probably like 77.
Speaker 2I want to say something like that oh, dude, just imagine how crushed you would be as an actual fan of marvel comics and you're like oh a thing, cartoon. And then it was about a kid that turned into the thing with a catchphrase and he went around in like a dune buggy or something like that they're really bad they're really, really bad, even by hannah barbara 70s, late 70s standards in my opinion.
Speaker 3As an admirer and a devotee, I can say that and he never even met fred and barney, only like interstitial segments where, like, they would have like a title card or something and they would come out together.
Speaker 2Hey Thing, how you doing Thing, Right. I mean, is that what they were doing?
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean they should have had them meet up for real. It would have been much, much more interesting.
Speaker 2You know, I used to read about these cartoons existing back when I was a kid and I was like, oh, I wish I could find those.
Speaker 3This was before the internet really took off Boomerang. I saw all of these on Boomerang back in the day. They would show them repetitively all the time.
Speaker 2See, whenever I got to watch, I only got to watch Boomerang because I didn't have big cable dish as a kid and I had to go to my grandpa's house and he had, and so I would be like channel 328 or whatever boomerang was, and then I'd be like let's go, and it would always be something like you know fucking wacky races or huckleberry hound or some bullshit that I know that you like oh, whoa, whoa shut, yeah, yeah, yeah, do not, do not speak ill of huckleberry hound, okay okay, sorry, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2It would be like howdy horse or whatever the hell.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'd be like a wheelie and the chopper bunch or perils of penelope pit stop exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2And I'd be like no, johnny quest, come on, super friends, you know I want to wait for sunday.
Speaker 3Sunday was boomer action day where they would have all action cartoons all day long, including like johnny quest marathons. But then I remember being like in even in elementary school. I'd come home and they would have just marathons of one character for like the entire afternoon and it would be like, okay, monday is huckleberry hound, tuesday's yogi bear, wednesday is augie doggy, doggy daddy, thursday is whatever, and you just watch them non-stop and, uh, I don't think I could do that anymore, but have a great old time. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2And then I. I used to read, though, that there's like a spider woman cartoon, which I know you can, oh yeah.
Speaker 3Also terrible. So spider spider woman and the new fantastic four, which is the Herbie the robot, were both made by the same company, which is, I believe, the Patty Freeling enterprises, and their output is just very, very poor in terms of animation quality and the stories are just piss poor.
Comparing Superhero Film Adaptations
Speaker 2Okay, well, that's too bad, because. I always thought Spider-Woman was like the hottest superhero.
Speaker 3Yeah, Spider-Woman is a great character. Those initial issues in her run are just spectacular. I mean, I believe it's.
Speaker 2They're cool.
Speaker 3Carmine Infantino actually doing the artwork on some of those in the early issues and it's um, I believe they're cool. Carmine infantino actually doing the artwork on some of those in the early issues, and it's just exquisite they are cool.
Speaker 2They're different concepts. I have a few issues of early spider woman. I really enjoy them and I also love I always liked how they made her costume so different and her origin so different from spider-man himself, right? Yeah, she wasn't like a clone of spider-man, so that was always kind of interesting and she's just like you know and that is.
Speaker 3That is an iconic outfit that deserves more credit than it gets. I mean, that is just exquisite costume. Sorry, I'm using that word so much, but it it is breathtaking, and her inclusion in the new Avengers was really a shot in the arm to that character, and it's sad that she didn't take off more in terms of popularity after that.
Speaker 2Right, and we've talked about that. We love new Avengers.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, new Avengers Bendis that was Bendis at his prime. I mean, there's no comparison to that that era in modern comics. We'll never I don't think we'll ever get something like that again.
Speaker 2They were fun, but they still felt consequential. Yeah, they treated the characters right, but they came up with new, fun, interesting stories. It was a great team lineup and terrific art from. David Finch. Yeah, finch, yeah and I don't know. I really that was just great. I mean, I used to have the two trades of the first two volumes of that and I just passed around all my friends and we all really liked them.
Speaker 3Yeah, especially just because we've probably mentioned this before. It's just Avengers sucked before that. It was terrible, it was just, it was always.
Speaker 2Yeah, I would pick up set characters.
Speaker 3No one cared Like Jack.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 3Right man.
Speaker 2I don't get why they did that, because you know you'd even pick up avengers comics from like the late 70s or early 80s and I still I never liked the avengers.
Speaker 3I was just like this is never and I know hardcore marvel nerds would be like wonder man's cool and I'm like okay, maybe, but like I just don't never really could get into them at least wonder man is cool.
Speaker 2I like to to see Safari's vest and his black turtleneck and shit. I thought he looked cool.
Speaker 3See to me and I'm sure you'll disagree with this but I would rather take the Z-list DC characters that were on Justice League Detroit. I think those are more interesting to me than these D-list Marvel characters that were on the Avengers in the 80s and 90s. Throw out anybody on the Avengers in the 80s and 90s.
Speaker 2Throw out anybody.
Speaker 3I'll take Justin Bieber and Martian Manhunter and Vixen and I'll take those characters over these guys.
Speaker 2So I look like a pathetic loser on this show because Ryan knows so much more shit about comics than me. So when we talk comics I just look like an absolute idiot. But at a certain point in time I did know to the average guy. I know some shit, but let's do a little challenge here. I know some shit but, like, let's do a little challenge here. Name all the characters on Avengers Detroit or Justice League Detroit. Let me see if I can name any of these people. Who are they? You want me to do it? Yeah, who's on Justice League Detroit?
Speaker 3Justice League Detroit yeah, that was like in the late 80s. It was Aquaman, was, I believe, the team leader Martian Manhunter. All right, I think Vixen, gypsy, vibe, elongated man, and maybe somebody else I could be wrong.
Speaker 2Should we confirm? Okay, so they had Aquaman go to Detroit. What the hell is he going to do in Detroit, hang?
Speaker 3out in the Great Lake. I don't know, it was like the Detroit era. Let me see Members Justice League Detroit. Oh, batman, they called it. It was like the Detroit era. Let me see Members Justice League Detroit. Oh. Batman was still on. I can't remember, yeah, so Aquaman, batman, elongated man, gypsy, martian, manhunter, steel Forgot him, sorry. Vibe, vixen and Zatanna, so I got most of them.
Speaker 2Oh, did Justice League like move to Detroit? Is that like? Oh, okay.
Speaker 3All right, interesting time in comics.
Speaker 2Yeah. I wonder if anyone has any idea what we're talking about Did they get offered like a tax write-off or something to like relocate or what the hell I can't recall.
Speaker 3I can't recall. To be honest with you, I have to go back and read the first issue of that again.
Speaker 2Maybe you should. Maybe you should do that before you go off half cocked on this show. A thousand. You need to get back on that train.
Speaker 3You're just calling me out here. You know it's a fake nerd, you know. I'm not a real fan. I'm not a real fan.
Speaker 2You're not a real fan, cause if you were a real fan, you would know that iron heart is in the comics.
Speaker 3Did you not know that? Yeah, canon, it's the canon, so it immediately validates everything if you're canon.
Speaker 2Some girl from Sarah Lawrence wrote the story and it was published by Marvel. You don't care about the comics, bro.
Speaker 3You just don't care about what the creator is and the legacy of Marvel.
Speaker 2You don't, you don't? Well, that's all I have to say about Fantastic Four. I always assumed we'd keep this a little bit short.
Speaker 3that was fun talking to you there's not a whole lot to say about the movie, I think, like I said, but I think if you could examine the details of the movie visually, there's, I'm sure there's a lot of gold under there that you could talk about, like how they came up, this set and these costumes and all that, but can't see it under there that you could talk about like how they came up. You know this set and these costumes and all that, but can't see it.
Speaker 2Got to bring it back, guys. We got to somehow get it. Like. I'm on a quest right now to try to get with my next video review, which will be on Steven Spielberg's duel, I'm trying to get a movement going for Universal to release Steven Spielberg's wall-sized illustrated map script of the uh movie, which until now has only been seen in like still snippets that like are pan and scan across the screen in laurette bozerow's documentary on the uh dvd. But we need to see the entire thing, guys. I mean, come on, what the fuck are we doing here? We need to see the entire thing, guys. I mean, come on, what the fuck are we doing here? We need to see that. So that's my newest.
Speaker 3It was a great movie.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, it's been a long time coming with my review, just because I hope that I can do it justice. But that's my next video and then after that, I think I'm either going to do Michael Mann's the Keep or John Borman's Excalibur, which I've been working on for a long time. So that's how it's going to go. Everybody, don't forget to subscribe to the channel and subscribe to Ryan's channel, cinecrisis. And then what I really need you guys to do, I mean I just can't believe I have to keep asking. This is getting pathetic. Go on iTunes and Spotify right now all eight of you and give us a five-star deal. Write a review about how cool we are, so hopefully people hear the pod. Also, when you listen to the audio podcast, generally, I go through the audio. I cut out a lot of little mistakes or boring parts. I add in clips from the movies and music so that you have a completely amazing you know amazing oral experience, sonal experience, whatever you say, right? Yeah, I'm only gonna ask this last time I wholeheartedly endorse this product this view.
Speaker 2Okay, do you endorse my shellacking of the audience?
Speaker 3do you endorse my shaming of the fans you have to do it much more animated, though you'd be like hey guys, you gotta like subscribe guys, you gotta like and subscribe on patreon, you gotta hit the buzzer, so you know yeah uh no, we have the best.
Speaker 2You know what I said. We have the best fans. I will say this we have the best friends in the game because all these people are near and dear to our heart. Like I I said in my last video, it's very important for me, and I think you, to have a very strong, unhealthy sort of what is the word for this? This relationship that's a one-sided sort of media thing. Do you know what I'm talking about? What do they call that? I said it in my last review. I guess I forgot.
Speaker 3Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, I can't think of the word.
Speaker 2Yeah, but no, parasocial. But no, we love you guys. It's always fun to do these. When we have interaction in the chat, it's always fun. So oh, thanks, Trembling Colors, for coming in on that one. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3Yeah, luckily our Hitchcock video did better than the previous few live streams, so hopefully, we'll keep the momentum going. You know, I might put out, I think, the I think the, the, the key is kind of that, uh, that era or that, um sure I don't know, yeah, that style genre you know I am open, though.
Speaker 2I'm more than open to on this show, though, because I want us to be interactive. I'm more open to. If people have ideas about a show, follow us on twitter. You can tweet at us. Me and ryan follow us on twitter. Yeah, you know, follow us on twitter. You can tweet at us.
Speaker 2Me and ryan follow us on twitter yeah you know, follow us on letterbox, just tweet at us. You want. You want us to do something. You have a good idea for the show. We're more than open to it. We have lots of ideas backed up, but we'll do, you know, whatever you guys want to say. So what about bra? What bronze age comic is alfred hitchcock's bronze age work? Oh, oh shit.
Speaker 2Wait, I don't understand. Like what question? What Bronze Age comic would you most equate to Alfred Hitchcock's Bronze Age work? This is a question from Trembling Colors Werewolf by Night. How about that?
Speaker 3Interesting, I don't know.
Speaker 2Tomb of Dracula. Sure, is that too obvious? It's a broad question, though it seems like a very like narrow question. It's actually kind of broad. Good question though, but did you like our comparison of the dude, the bronze silver and gold age hitchcock? I think that was pretty apt.
Speaker 3That was pretty good okay, well, I do need to get going, so me too, been real guys it's been real until next time see you right bye.
