Fantastic Four & Superman (2025)

George and Ryan discuss the big superhero blockbusters of the summer! With special guest Vince Salerno from the Vince Salerno Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@thebigv75

Transcript

Introduction to Film Journal Podcast

Speaker 1 0:09

Hi guys, welcome back to the Film Journal podcast. We have a very special guest today, Vince Salerno from the Big V75 channel. Correct On YouTube, right, Vince.

Speaker 2 0:20

Now Vince Salerno-filmmaker. Right, I cut the Big V75 two weeks ago. Apologies, got it Okay. So it's Vince Salerno-filmmaker. Right, I cut the Big V 75 two weeks ago, apologies.

Speaker 1 0:26

Got it Okay. So it's Vince Salerno on YouTube, and today we're going to talk about the two biggest blockbusters of the year James Gunn's Superman and the Fantastic Four directed by some guy, and I guess the biggest thing that's been interesting to me is I announced that I blocked the phrases. Thing that's been interesting to me is I announced that I blocked the phrases man of steel and Superman on my Twitter, which I did because I was tired of hearing about it, but I didn't have to block fantastic four because nobody's really talking about it at all, which is interesting, and I'd be curious to think if you guys have had the same experience as me. I thought it was the better movie and I suppose we'll just open up the floodgates now and I'll turn it over to Ryan, my co-host. How you been, ryan.

Speaker 3 1:17

Doing well Just got back from vacation, so a little refreshed. It's a little past my bedtime too here, but that's okay, yeah, we're not that late, a little refreshed it's a little past my bedtime too here, but that's okay, yeah so. So superman, fantastic four. This is a little bit of a more refreshing summer when it comes to the comic book superhero, you know, genre, um, I feel like both of these movies.

Speaker 3 1:37

Both of these movies are very good in different ways, yet there's a lot of overlap in terms of what they get right in my opinion, and that's kind of a more optimistic outlook on where the genre is. There's a definite sense of you know, larger world here, but yet we don't have to start from square one. Both of these part of the thing that I really appreciated and what I hoped the genre would accomplish eventually as we got a little bit more sophisticated and more established in terms of, like, general audiences, that we do not have to start from literally, like in man of Steel, for instance, we start with him not even being born to being born and then everything after that. So origins origins are kind of passe perhaps at this point, hopefully. So I don't think that origins, aside from a handful of characters, are super relevant to who the character is, what the rest of their life determines.

Speaker 3 2:39

I think that certainly for something like Spider-Man, that is a key part of the character's story, but for the fantastic four and for superman particularly, I think both of those you don't need to start at the beginning. I think jumping in to the middle of the story allows for more story potential after that. So I'll start with that and I have some other thoughts later. But, vince, what do you think of? Uh, in general, these movies?

Comparing Superman and Fantastic Four

Speaker 2 3:04

yeah, I agree with. Agree with a lot of what you said. It's funny how they both have similarities in the way that they adapt the lore and that they totally avoid the origin story, which I think, for these two particular franchises, is pretty necessary At this point. We've gotten multiple Superman reboots, I think two, three Fantastic Four reboots, and we've gotten the origin pretty explicitly throughout all of those. So we all know the origin of these characters. So I don't think we really need to see that again. So it was actually really refreshing to go into both films and just totally avoid that and just get right into seeing these heroes challenged in ways that we really haven't seen before in film.

Speaker 1 3:55

Um, I would say especially for the fantastic four, because for the most part their origin is kind of dumb and hard to explain. Would you agree, ryan?

Speaker 3 4:04

yeah, I think that's unfair, to say dumb. I know what you mean, though, in terms of the logistics of why these four individuals are the ones who end up in space. That's what you're probably going for. Why not having the origin is an asset to both of these films is that by starting midway through in these characters careers, you introduce story elements and ideas that were not possible to be introduced earlier on. So, for instance, if you started the origin of the fantastic four, you then have maybe read, and Sue aren't married yet, so maybe, maybe you're. You're not even there yet. So they get their superpowers and have to go through all these things. Well, now they're already married, and now we introduce the element of sue is pregnant and going to give birth to.

Speaker 3 4:52

You know, one of the major characters of fantastic four, lore franklin richards, and that is something that we have never even encountered in this type of movie before. So it's it's something new, it's something refreshing, yet it's something very familiar. If you're, if you're into, you know fantastic four comics, so that's why I'm talking about, with that same, with superman, if you get all the baggage out of the way, you introduce a lot of new developments that can be, you know, entertained in, uh, in the world of superman. That's how. That's how you can get away with having all of the ancillary Justice League characters in the movie, for instance, yeah, absolutely, and I guess let's just lay a framework here.

Speaker 1 5:30

Let's just start with Fantastic Four. Vince, what did you think of the movie?

Speaker 2 5:35

Well, I agree with what you said earlier. I think Fantastic Four if it's between Superman and Fantastic Four, Fantastic Four is objectively the better film and Fantastic Four, Fantastic Four is objectively the better film. I was actually really taken aback how much this didn't feel like a typical MCU movie. It just had a structure to it and a tone to it that just felt completely fresh, and I guess also the fact that it takes place in another universe really serves it well, because you don't have to worry about preexisting or you don't have to worry about okay, wait, how does this fit into the world? Where were they when Thanos came and the blip and all that? You just go right into the world. And it was one of the better aspects of the movie. But no, I really liked it.

Speaker 1 6:22

That was one of the better it was good, though right, of the better what it was good, though right. I mean it was a good movie yeah, yeah it was.

Speaker 2 6:27

It was good. The thing that surprised me the most, I think, and the thing that I was most nervous about, was, uh pedro pascal as mr fantastic, because I think uh ian gruffin in those first two uh 2005 movies, I think he's the best actor to play the character by far and he's one of my favorites, so anybody playing him. It was a really important part for part of the film for me, and I was never a fan of Pedro Pascal. From the beginning I was like it doesn't look like the character. I think he can pull off the essence of Reed Richards and he proved me wrong. I thought he pulled off the human side of the character really well and maybe he's not like the fully realized leader of the team that he is in the comics but as far as that, like that guy who's always worried about the end of the world, trying to figure out like the doomsday possibility and how to avoid avoid that I think they captured that really well I thought he was great.

Speaker 1 7:27

I thought he had a nice little funny intellectual nasally noise that he can't uh voice, that he kind of affected on himself. Did you notice that?

Speaker 1 7:35

yeah, he was a nerd um, yeah, I thought yeah, exactly, and I thought for the most part, um, he was interesting.

Speaker 1 7:41

I also appreciated in this film something we haven't seen I don't think you could argue with me since like Spider-Man one and the scene where he takes out the trash and spends time talking with Mary Jane about her abusive blue collar family.

Speaker 1 8:05

When reed talked to his son and said I don't want you to be like me, there's something wrong with me and in the way that he is this kind of cold calculator, because he sort of has to be. And, by the way, if you're someone that's like a word cell or like a political arguer guy which I find myself being a lot you tend to like say things that are incredibly utilitarian and weird and average people sort of think it's bizarre, but not to say that I'm like a reed richards level smart person or whatever, but like these are, this is, this is a movie made for non-reed richards level smart people. So like I feel fine, like you know, sort of identifying with the character, but that was a really cool character moment for me, in my opinion. I'm sure there have been great moments in you know, avengers, ultron or that I'm forgetting about, but that was something that struck me as being very refreshing was to have a non-plot forwarding sequence of two characters interacting with each other.

Speaker 3 8:58

Ryan thoughts. Is this movie better than Superman? My personal feeling is I kind of like them both equally. I will see that Fantastic Four and I think that's my personal bias though, because I am inherently a DC guy at heart. Just in general, that's just my own personal bias towards the comics.

Speaker 1 9:17

You're in the DC swamp.

Speaker 3 9:19

Yeah, absolutely, I'm in the swamp. The swamp thing is here with me.

Speaker 1 9:25

Perfect.

Speaker 3 9:28

But I will say that Fantastic Four is the better movie overall in terms of the way it's constructed. I think its maturity actually does give it a bit of a boost as well. But I would say for Mr Fantastic, shout out to Alex Hyde-White, still my favorite, mr Fantastic.

Speaker 1 9:44

I was going gonna say the same thing. I didn't want to interrupt roger corman yeah, professor hyde white from the uh, from the roger corman. He is great and he actually looks like reed from like a jack kirby drawing and he, he was actually.

Speaker 2 10:00

He's actually pretty good in the movie, despite have you seen that vince? I did. I actually got to watch it on youtube, uh, three months ago it's, it's not bad. I mean, yeah, it's got its moments I, I, I think I put on letterboxd like it's. It's the most faithful adaptation of the characters I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 10:22

So I feel like, like this aspires to do and accomplishes what maybe that movie tried to do and didn't miss the mark because of budgetary and financial reasons. But I will say, in terms of the look and feel of the movie, this is probably one of the most interesting unique Marvel movies for sure, because it actually feels like maybe at least and we talked about this ourselves either the director or perhaps the producer vision of what the movie should be like. It does not have a made by committee feel to it that so many of the other Marvel films have, which is like the most bland, uninteresting, you know, aesthetic to it. It does not feel like it came from Walmart, that we're just buying it off the shelf, like we're consuming this product. This actually feels like a real movie for once, which I know.

Fantastic Four: A Fresh MCU Direction

Speaker 1 11:09

That's a low bar, but like it is something to note and, you know, take into account here which, by the way, no matter what kind of nostalgic feelings you have about the original fantastic four tim story movies, those are movies that are four quadrant tactical crowd pleasers that were engineered specifically to be a blockbuster, with the horny Chris Evans character, the Jessica Alba, as you know, sue Storm, I mean you know who's the new TV star? Or the guy from the Shield? Well, he's the Michael.

Speaker 2 11:39

Chiklis.

Speaker 1 11:40

Yeah, I mean not that he did a bad job, don't get me wrong, but like you know what I'm saying, like that those movies are incredibly cynical and and just kind of just like alba casting particularly proves that point.

Speaker 3 11:50

I mean that is not. I mean that's why she's in the movie, but not because she emblematically represents any version of what sue storms. I mean, you never really think about sue storm as, like you know, a sex symbol or you know some kind of like you know, character, like that it's a more it's a more like the Vanessa Kirby version in the movie, which is more of a kind of motherly nurturing figure right, rather than you know.

Speaker 1 12:15

Hit up my homie John Byrne to see what you know, maybe right, and I thought but uh, that's a deep, deep cut, cut, that's a deep cut. But yeah, no, I mean, those movies are very crass and commercial, and this one, though, it does have its share of corporate synergism. First of all, I texted my family and I said this is a great family picture with a really good message. And I was surprised by that and it gave it a lot of heart and I thought it was also just very clever and fun yeah, also just not.

Speaker 3 12:49

it has sufficient action but it's not an action overkill movie and both this and not to keep shoehorning superman in, but both these movies they eschew a modern trend in a lot of these blockbusters is after the movie is, you would think the movie would be over. There is another ending, another giant monster fight. I think about go back to Batman v Superman.

Speaker 3 13:13

They have their giant climactic fight and then all of a sudden, oh, you think the movie is over. Here's giant monster doomsday and we're going to have another 25 minute fight on a green screen. So it's like we finally kind of like eliminated that where it's like okay, you have your climactic battle and then a nice little resolution um, you can have a funny bit at the end, which is where it's appropriate is to have you know your serious movie. You can have a few jokes here and there and then at the end, as we're wrapping up, you can do the thing with the baby seat in the car and that's yeah, which is funny and cute and enduring.

Speaker 1 13:49

And and vince, let me ask you this are you excited to see these characters come back for avengers doomsday?

Speaker 2 13:57

you know, I kind of am, I really kind of am. I mean, I've always been a fan of fantastic four, uh, and I've wanted to see them in the mcu since since marvel got the rights back. So, um, to see that fully realized, um, almost too soon, too late, uh, in my opinion. But like, just barely to see that fully realized is really exciting. Um, now the downside.

Speaker 2 14:23

I think the appealing thing about this movie is that it does take place in a different universe and there's not a package of the MCU, but that's going to be totally pushed aside after Secret Wars because they're all going to be truncated into the same universe and then we're going to have to figure out how I don't even know what that looks like. Are they even going to be the same characters? Are they going to do like a soft reboot again, like I? I don't know.

Speaker 3 14:47

But he appears special. We want to keep this one special, like I want. I don't want them. I agree, I know what george is going to say, but like, please keep these, keep this universe to itself.

Speaker 1 14:57

Like this is too perfect, don't wreck this one I put them on the list, I don't know, yeah yeah, I don't want to see these guys hanging out with you know, anthony mackie, yo, what can you do? Stretch, you know? I mean like, I don't what I mean. You know you're gonna say like, and then james marsden's gonna come in and like hey, I'm cyclops again. It's like this. This is. This sounds very dumb, like you know, I don't. I don't want this avengers doomsday with 75 people in it.

Speaker 3 15:23

Rebecca Romijn as Mystique.

Speaker 1 15:25

Yeah, what, Like you know, oh great, yeah, Like I want to see a sequel of this movie, but I don't want to see them.

Speaker 3 15:34

Oh, how did we get here we?

Speaker 1 15:35

came in a. Oh, we're from a different universe, you know I don't.

Speaker 2 15:39

Yeah, I think that's going to be the unfortunate baggage of Doomsday that they're never going to be able to avoid is that you have all these characters that they want to use that nobody likes. Like all due respect to anthony mackie, but falcon america, the dr, strange chick america, whatever her name is, captain marvel and all the marvels in that movie. Like you have all these characters that are going to be in this film that nobody cares about but they have to use in some way because they have to give this universe some sort of like conclusion. Well, I mean, they don't have to.

Speaker 3 16:10

They don't have to, but they, they want to, they're trying, yeah they don't have to.

Speaker 1 16:16

That's when I saw the fox x-men were gonna be in there. I'm like, let it die, just stop, like I don't need leave ian mckellen alone, this poor bastard. You know I'm like, yeah, I'm like, look man, the guy looks like fucking, like he was on a banana peel half in the grave when he was in hobbit 3. You know I'm like, yeah, alone, he's a great actor, like he was in the hospital for tripping on on stage.

Speaker 2 16:38

He was on, uh, he's doing a production somewhere and he tripped on the stage and it's like, yeah, I don't want this guy moving yeah.

Speaker 1 16:45

Then some like hollywood moguls like hey, ian, how you doing? Yeah, come on down for avengers doomsday, it's gonna be sick.

Speaker 3 16:52

We got 55 000 people in the movie and they'll be in it for three lines you have three whole lines, you know and they'll probably just get like wiped out in some Beyonder level planet destruction thing. It'll be like Earth, whatever home of the Fox X-Men, and we see them for like five seconds and then kaboom planet's gone.

Speaker 1 17:15

Avengers Doomsday. Can you see my real power?

Speaker 3 17:23

Yeah, exactly, and then he'll have like Cyclops visor in his hand and crush it and be like marvel studios presents avengers, doomsday part one of eight.

Speaker 1 17:32

So right, he's gonna show up in the x-men universe, kill everybody. And then, yeah, it's like if brett ratner didn't do enough to hurt these people like, kevin Feige is going to finish the job. Ryan, you're so right, I'm going to put.

Speaker 2 17:48

Colin on it. I will say I'm excited for seeing all those like early 2000s iterations on screen together. I think like that was a fantasy of mine as a kid growing up. It's like why don't they put all these guys in a movie, because that's what the comics were, and to be able to have those actors come in and also kind of like in Deadpool, wolverine, like give them like their happy ending, like they all get a proper setup, they all get one last go at the character, like I honestly think that's, that's kind of appealing.

Speaker 3 18:18

But after that, you know, even a rebooted MCU, like I don't think that's gonna work honestly see, for me I mean, I felt like x-men days of future past was like the proper send-off for the, for the original fox x-men crew like that was the perfect way to for me at least to like get those guys back, have them do their thing and then like pass it off to the next generation of X-Men people and I was satisfied with that. I was like fine, and I'm ready for actually something new. I would like to see more comic-accurate costumes, for instance of the characters, and see what we can do with that.

Speaker 1 18:58

And maybe a different villain.

Speaker 3 19:01

I know George makes fun of me for wanting Mr Sinister in a movie, but that's what I want to see in terms of X-Men. I don't makes fun of me for wanting Mr Sinister in a movie, but that's what I want to see in terms of X-Men.

Speaker 1 19:06

I don't make fun of you for that. That would work.

Speaker 2 19:09

I would agree if the original cast of X-Men got more screen time in that film, because, other than Hugh Jackman, they're all limited to 15 minutes in that temple in China that they're in True. True, most of them were like super old and, like you know, Patrick.

Speaker 3 19:28

Stewart and Ian McKellen were, like you know, looked like they were going to go back then, and it was 10, 11 years ago at this point, yeah that's fair.

Speaker 1 19:36

I don't know about that. Yeah, I'm ready to let that ship sail. Bring in some new kids to do X-Men. You know I like James Mars. Bring in some new kids to do x-men. You know I like james marsden. Yeah, he got short shrift in the original movies, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. And, by the way, look, I don't, I don't. The only pushback I had on mr sinister was that your recommendation was that if you could go back in time and tell brett ratner what to do in 2006 for an x-men 3 that you would want, mr sinister, and I'm like there's no way they would ever have a guy that looks like a like a vampire with a diamond.

Speaker 1 20:07

Yeah, no, and I'm actually shocked and appalled that they made oscar isaac dress up like a goofball like I've news like that was like the worst thing ever. That was terrible.

Speaker 3 20:21

I I enjoy that movie, but it it is. I mean, that is some very, very curious decisions about the makeup effects for that apocalypse version. I mean, I don't know what they were thinking since. I mean whatever, not to get too off topic. But let's go back to Fantastic Four.

Speaker 3 20:38

The 60s setting and aesthetic is actually a very refreshing and welcome change for the pace of the movie, and I say that because it not only changes the tone, I think, of the movie from a lot of what we've seen of late, it also changes the aesthetic, so it adds a different level of color to the movie.

Franklin Richards, Pregnancy, and Family

Speaker 3 20:57

For instance, a lot of these bright white and blue hues that are present in the film would not have been probably chosen for a more modern day film. And you see that even in the 2005 fantastic four, where the color, the color scheme of the costumes are that very, very dark Navy, blue and black on the, you know, on the costumes. So there's that. And two, it just gives a very it feels very early sixties in terms of what it's going for, that very Kennedy era space race. There's an optimism to the future of America. We can achieve things that humanity has not achieved before, and that really thrives in the movie and gives it like a boost of energy, which is so refreshing, and not this like nihilistic viewpoint that is present in some other steel.

Speaker 1 21:45

Yeah, I'm with you because, like, it's only believable that the fantastic four would become this kind of amazing institution of beloved celebrity people If it's in the sixties when, like you have the, the talk show person surprisingly I was watching the credits he's built like sixth because the cast really is the four people and then then you know the, the gal at the un or whatever, and then the guy, the sixth guy, is the talk show host guy. But if we did do it in modern day, then you have to do. You know zach snyder's lineup of favorite ted talk hosts.

Speaker 3 22:17

You know doing, uh, a 10 minute long treatise about how superman is a threat to, like, you know, nato or whatever you gotta get neil degrasse, neil degrasse tyson explaining the physics of how the powers work, of how how the cosmic rays interacted with the molecular structure of their dna and changed. You know the, you know the, uh, the nucleotides around and, and you know, truncated the, the introns and the exons, and you know gives them.

Speaker 1 22:43

That's how she got the invisible powers and not the flame powers, it's like yeah, worse than that is, you'd have to have someone like a bill maher guest be like this is reshaping how we see humanity. And it's like, okay, I'd much rather have this 1960s. You know, guy, being like, isn't it great, the Fantastic Four? They're awesome, they're the protectors of humanity.

Speaker 3 23:06

Like oh that was a. I just said flashbacks to Iron man two, when Bill O'Reilly is in the movie criticizing Pepper Potts and I'm like you. Just, you just gave me a PTSD flashback of that.

Speaker 1 23:20

OK that's funny, though. That works OK, though.

Speaker 2 23:23

The 2015 reboot came out, that people were immediately saying they should just they should go to the 60s like before marvel I said that forever.

Speaker 2 23:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah as I was saying, I feel like you and I have been talking about that for years. Um, I think before the mcu is even a question, they were like they should just reboot it, set it in the 60s in its own universe and just do like a super retro 60s superhero science fiction adventure, and I'm glad to see that's what we ended up getting they did it and it was awesome and I thought it was terrific and I think objectively it is a better movie than superman.

Speaker 3 23:56

Um, definitely what's also great though, and why I think this, this one, works above all of the other past failed Fantastic Four movies, is that when you go back to the Fantastic Four comics, it's always a sense of very high concept science fiction, pushing the envelope about the future of technology, alien invasion, things like that. The first in the 2005 one, for instance. There's nothing there in terms of science fiction or any kind of alien menace, nothing like that. They go to outer space, obviously to get their powers.

Speaker 1 24:34

There's a moment where the guy from Nip Tuck goes science 101 read what happens when you cool down a rubber tube it blows up. So there's a little sci-fi for you, a little science.

Speaker 3 24:45

RIP Julian McMahon. Great, great actor I'm a big fan of his, but that's so sad that he passed. But yeah, so that movie, none of that at all. And going back to the celebrity culture thing, you get a lot of that in that movie, which is like this TMZ style, jerry Sprer level, celebrity kind of tv talk which is so just tiresome and groan inducing. And this is a much more kind of like lofty, interesting, celebratory, um, celebratory version of that which is, you know, maybe a little too mushy no, you're right.

Speaker 1 25:23

No, it's, but it's in line with the comic books. Remember when in the Fantastic Four Tim story, when the thing throws Johnny Storm into a giant Burger King advertisement and he, like, catches the burger on fire?

Speaker 3 25:35

I don't remember actually.

Speaker 2 25:36

That was a great synergy, because they wanted you to go to Burger King and get the Burger King Happy Meal toys for the Fantastic Four which, by the way, I did you Burger King Happy Meal toys for the fantastic movie which, by the way I did, you're watching right now.

Speaker 3 25:45

Yeah, I missed those. I didn't get those, yeah.

Speaker 1 25:50

Yeah, it's a great choice to do that and it made the movie feel really light and springy and fun. But then they also counter it with this villain. That's incredibly menacing, scary and awesome and I saw it in I in imax. I don't know about you guys, but there is an aspect ratio difference and when they go to the giant planet of galactus, um, the scale was just mesmerizing. It was really incredible and I thought the fantastic four the gal from ozark who was the silver surfer was great actually.

Speaker 1 26:21

I well, there was a lot of complaining about the silver surfer. I like the silver Surfer in the comics One of my first real videos on my YouTube channel, I did a huge exploration an hour long into Stan Lee's relationship with the Silver Surfer. I have a sort of love-hate relationship with that character because I think it's kind of a vapid and boring philosophizing character. Mostly the reason it keeps persisting is because it's a visual character and to have a woman be the silver surfer actually I think is like the superior choice. I think it's more visually interesting and then also you have a. You have somebody for johnny storm to interact with, right yeah, I was gonna say that.

Speaker 2 27:00

That's why, once I heard that it was a it was mostly a choice based on giving Johnny someone to have sexual chemistry with I was like, okay, well, I can get behind that Cause. Like you don't really have much like the silver surfer in this movie, nor in rad, wouldn't really have much to do. Like he wouldn't have that relationship with Johnny storm. And you know if, if Johnny and people were complaining oh, Johnny Storm's going to be gay, he's not going to be chasing Taylor or whatever. And no, he's actually very like, he's very attracted to women. He's a, he's like a sex symbol in this universe, but he's not. It came off to me in the movie that he doesn't want to be with all these women who just think of him as a sex symbol.

Speaker 2 27:41

He wants something more nuanced more interesting and he finds that in in the silver surfer and I thought her story was really cool. I thought um, their chemistry was good. So, yeah, anyone who was like, oh, this is woke because they gender swap the silver surfer, I was like this is. This is one time where I actually disagree.

Speaker 3 28:01

I agree, and nobody really it's visually very appealing, the design, but also, like you said, not only just for for that aspect of giving johnny something to do. It's also the fact that I think traditionally in a lot of these things sue would be the character that would probably have the least to do, that writers would find not enough for her to get involved in. But here she has so many other things that are going on for her in the movie that instead Johnny is the one who has little to nothing to do otherwise, and so by giving him the role that would traditionally be I mean in the comics it's Alicia Masters who is the one who supposedly tames the Silver Surfer or explains to him that humanity is worth saving, and then in a lot of media adaptations they change it to invisible woman doing that.

Speaker 3 28:51

So since she has enough to do, it presents a different interesting dynamic to then let the human torch be the one to do that with a female silver surfer, and I think it works absolutely very well for the movie and I had no problem or issue with it.

Speaker 1 29:04

I liked it a lot it works absolutely very well for the movie and I had no problem or issue with it.

Speaker 1 29:06

I liked it a lot, I would say. My one complaint is that the movie is too short and I think that there, if had there been a moment where, for some reason, the silver surfer comes down to earth and through her silvery powers, can turn herself into a regular looking person, I would have liked the scene where johnny maybe took her down to the hot rod garage or the milks, you know, and she got to see like humanity and he got. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, other than just appeal to like hey, you don't want to be a genocider person, cause like in the comics, like the stroke of genius of Lee and Kirby was like, the silver surfer does endear himself to humanity through talking to Alicia masters, who thinks he's just a regular guy, and he learns about art and music and he learns about the potential for humanity to be great. You know, much like his home world, etc. So that would have been a nice touch, I think.

Speaker 3 29:48

But if I recall also, though, for most of the previous planets, that the surfer had been to in the comics they were mostly dead worlds that he had scouted out and found for galactus, and that this was kind of a unique situation, that he came to earth which was a populated by intelligent life forms, and so that changes the calculus, that he was not aware of such a thing until he got there. Is that, am I remembering?

Speaker 1 30:12

No, not to be too pedantic and get too comic booky here, but in the original conception of the silver surfer, which is a whole, whole cloth invention of Kirby who added him in, the silver surfer was literally like a robot. He of kirby, who added him in um the silver surfer was literally like a robot. He like was created by galactus and worked for galactus and that was all he ever did.

Galactus: The Force of Nature Villain

Speaker 1 30:30

And then he, the first time he ever interacted with the, the species population of a destroyed planet was on earth and it changed his mind now right, that's what I'm saying, that's yeah, yeah, stan lee retconned the whole thing two years later with the solo series by saying oh no, actually this guy used to be a type of a human guy on a planet and he sacrificed himself. So like they don't mesh, because Stan Lee like changed his mind on the character.

Speaker 3 30:56

So the original Kirby version is much more pure and Stan kind of screwed it up, but that was my, that was my initial understanding from what I remember. Yeah, I just remembering some line of dialogue from the hannah barbara cartoon where the watcher tells, tells the silver surfers like, oh, but the other worlds, they were all dead, they had no intelligent life form. And then I think galactus says something like intelligence.

Speaker 3 31:19

This is nothing. This is like you know. So, yeah, great, great use of galactus, though I mean again going back to the 2007 version, which is kind of adapting the lame version from the ultimate comic universe, where he was like a giant cloud of nano robots in space or something like that. This they have the balls to like, actually go full-on, comic accurate giant man in a, like you know, head, toga, headgear or whatever it's like it's. It's actually, it's everything that I would have wanted to see. If I was like 13 years old and this movie had come out like, I would have been, you know, absolutely ecstatic.

Speaker 3 31:57

I'm happy now, but, like you know, that was what I was looking for back then totally, yeah, yeah, and also they take it very seriously and when I love the scope, you mentioned the scope of when they go to galactus's ship and you know they look super diminutive as he's sitting there in his throne, you know, staring them down.

Speaker 3 32:16

Traditionally, I mean, he would never meet with them or speak with them because the earth people are beneath his but, but the but, the, um, the, the plot mach, the, the plot machinations with Franklin Richards, uh, you know, changes that and allows this to happen, which is which is quite clever and good. And, um, they, they treat him as a very serious threat, which is important. There's no joking, there's no funny business with, with a character like this, which is good. It's, you know, taken very seriously.

Speaker 1 32:42

What are we going to say, Vince?

Speaker 2 32:44

Yeah, I was going to say, I'll be honest, my my first exposure to Galactus as a kid was fighting him and the Lego superheroes, Marvel superheroes video game, where he's just kind of like this giant monster. Like I'm hungry, I must eat, and so I. Actually I hadn't really read the comics so I really had no frame of reference of what Galactus even was. And then to go into this, like oh, he's like this ancient godlike creature that's not even, I mean, was human, but he's like so old that he has no cares about like attachments or anything Like it was cool to see what I assumed was the original comic book intentions for the character, which are, yeah, played totally seriously, which I think works to the film, like yes, it's kind of goofy thinking of oh, it's just this giant guy in a costume, but like no, he's, he's actually really terrifying and and I'm glad that they it's played well.

Speaker 3 33:40

It's played well in that he is not as destructive and bad as he is. He is not a malevolent force. He is literally just a force of nature, which has always been kind of. The more interesting aspect to Galactus is that he is a force of nature in the universe that simply exists, and this hunger drives him. It doesn't matter what the world is, he has no concern over that. It's not a personal attack on anyone or any species. It's just like. I have to. I have to eat and your planet's here. I'm taking it you know yeah.

Speaker 3 34:12

Yeah, and I just want to.

Speaker 1 34:14

I just, I just want to point out we have a N in the chat, or good pal. He's always been good to us and low res is in the chat as well. He says it's clobbering time. Lores, thanks for coming on. You like the fantastic four, didn't you, lores? I think so. I suppose you can respond, but yeah, I uh. Yeah, I agree, I appreciated it. I also. This is the first. Uh, you know, movies can get me if they're good, and I was.

Speaker 1 34:37

There were two moments in the movie where I was sort of on the edge of my seat, where I was worried about. You know, anytime you have this little, tiny little baby in the hand of this giant thing amidst all this chaos happening you're getting. I was a little. I was like, oh boy, geez, get the baby. And then when she's giving birth in the spaceship at the crest of a black hole, what a great set piece. I mean that was fantastic, that was the best thing in the movie. It was fantastic. And you know, know, the fantastic four working together and I liked seeing ben as the pilot, which sort of like that sequence works as sort of um, did I lose everybody? Did I just drop out for a little bit? You?

Speaker 2 35:14

just froze, but oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 35:16

Your audio is good okay, okay, but like this, this, this, this sequence in the spaceship is sort of a simulacrum for the origin that we don't see, but it's still the fantastic four all together in a spaceship in a high pressure situation. So it's sort of a replacement for that and I liked their dynamic between how they're all able to do different things. And I also have to say I really appreciated that this movie is a film that I think vince you would agree it's incredibly pro-life in a way. Right, it's a very pro-family movie, I mean it's, and in that way I think that superman falters a little bit. I think that superman was good, but it was. It was sort of a juvenile movie in a sense, in that it appeals to guys like us because fundamentally it is a coming of age story about a guy and his girlfriend, whereas this film was a much more full spectrum experience where you have your young person archetype and johnny storm, but then you also have this married couple dynamic and the idea of bringing a child into the world.

Speaker 2 36:12

So they had a lot going on and a lot of emotional vectors that I thought were effective and so, you know, I thought it was pretty good yeah, the, the central theme that I picked up was, um, like, the whole movie is about facing the unknown and the unknown can be, you know, a billion year for the first time.

Speaker 2 36:31

Is is terrifying, and it is facing the unknown and you, yeah, you have all those these anxieties about you know the worst parts of yourself and and your kid becoming that and even being able to just function as a parent and the sacrifice you have to make and the it changes your perspective on on life and, just like the, the lengths you will go to protect your kids.

Speaker 2 37:09

So seeing that portrayed through Reed and Sue, I mean, definitely resonated with me and I think also for the whole like, the whole world. Like facing the unknown, like together, like this, this sense of like, you know, the whole world becomes engulfed in this issue with galactus and whether or not to give up the child, but then the fantastic four shares the world. Like. You know, we are not giving you up for our child, but we're not going to give up our child for you. We're going to figure out how to save everybody because, as you point out, george, like and it's very pro-life message like, every life matters and nobody is less than the other and we're going to save everybody and they do. It's incredibly rewarding by the time you get to the end of the film. That's a really fantastic observation.

Speaker 3 37:55

Oh, sorry, I was going to say I think the added element of having the child first unborn child and then the baby adds a level of dramatic tension that not only increases the stakes for the and then the baby adds a level of dramatic tension though, you know, not only you know increases the stakes for the characters in the movie, but it increases the stakes for us as the audience that we're not used to something like that.

Speaker 3 38:11

You know, when you have all this stuff where it's like oh, the end of the world and galactus is going to eat the planet and stuff like that, yeah, it's like, okay, sounds dreadful and and scary and all that, but like what, whatever, who cares? You know it's not gonna happen. But like, when you actually have the little baby that is at jeopardy and at stake here, it adds a different level to the movie and, um, you know, more so than say like metamorphose disgusting green baby in superman, where you're like I really like don't care, like I'm sorry as much as I like the movie, I still like superman, but like you know, come on, like you can't compare, that's like like different level, completely like there's no, there's no dramatic state.

Speaker 3 38:47

That's played for laughs and this is played very seriously and it builds a successful level of tension. Talking about that, the two, you know that is that is probably the most suspenseful scene in the movie is the scene where the silver surfer is chasing them in their spaceship and then like somehow, um, uh, what do you call it Like, comes into their ship, like like Kitty pride style, um, phases through the through the whole of the ship.

Speaker 3 39:13

It's like that's a very exciting, thrilling moment Cause, like you don't know what's going to happen. They're in the midst of, like you know, hyperspace and a black hole, and Sue is like trying to give birth and you're like, are they going to strap her down to the table? How is she going to do this? And so I think, also saying like the movie does things where it has moments where you're like I don't really know what they're going to do next, because, like you know 95% of these other movies, you're like, okay, I know how they're going to resolve point. You know problem A to get to point B and problem C to get to point D, and it's like you don't care. This is like, okay, I wonder how are they going to approach this? Are they going to do this? Are they going to do that? And so there's something a little different here.

Speaker 1 39:51

You know I will give. There's been a lot of people slandering the MCU and like, look, I don't want to lie, I've been one of them, right, but I uh, you know, thanos end game yeah, yeah, well, the first, uh infinity war infinity war.

Speaker 1 40:14

However, the way that they did contrive for them to go back in time by going back in time and stealing all the stones from the places that they were in the first movies, that was unique. You know, I think that there's going to be a reappraisal of the mcu movies. A little bit it's easy to dog on them now. I have a little bit myself. Um, this one sort of reinvigorated me, but in the way that I want to see a sequel to this movie and not, you know, 75 people.

Speaker 3 40:40

Well, I don't think most people denigrate those movies specifically. I think most people. It starts with Well, they are. Are people denig? Honestly, I didn't even watch Infinity War and Endgame, so I never even saw those you didn't see those. I just stopped caring at a certain point. I was just like I don't really care.

Speaker 1 40:57

Yeah, I never saw those. You were an early adopter, non-carer.

Speaker 3 40:59

People started not caring, yeah, yeah yeah, I just stopped caring. I was like I really just don't care at that point.

Speaker 1 41:06

But I yeah.

Speaker 3 41:09

I don't think people necessarily, and I haven't seen people denigrating those movies per se, but I think more it's talking about, like Captain Marvel or Dr Strange 2 or the Ant-Man films or things like that Thunderbolts, whatever, you kind of see it in like the nerd, the nerd Roddick, the critical drinker crowd where they kind of, yeah, reassess the films and like, oh, end game was like.

Speaker 2 41:30

nvidia war was great, but end game was a completely unsatisfying ending in which, like, I agree with you, george, like the fact that they begin the movie with daniel saying oh yeah, I burned my arm by destroying the stone, so you're all screwed.

Speaker 2 41:42

And then five years, later they're still stuck in it, like how are they gonna do this? And and, honestly, like it was a victory lap for marvel too. So for them to go back in time and kind of revisit some of the greatest hits like it was fun it was. It was a fun movie, it was a fun part very heavy film like it's pretty, it gets pretty dark I, yeah, I missed infinity war and endgame.

The 1960s Setting: A Perfect Choice

Speaker 1 42:05

I missed infinity war and endgame when ncu was peak. Yeah, I'll live you I'm quite, I'm good you haven't seen those movies no, I don't care yeah okay. Well, this is funny because, like, no one can like slander you because you are a real deal comic fan, for real, big time like yeah, I think so yeah, and you were out, okay. See, I was out around like 2020 when we were getting like black panther 2 and I was like uh, give a fuck anymore.

Speaker 3 42:33

But like you know, I can't remember. I stopped Like I didn't see captain Marvel, I didn't see black Panther, I didn't see a lot of those ant man too yeah, a lot of those.

Speaker 1 42:43

I was just.

Speaker 2 42:44

I was just like I think I I skipped. Uh. I saw Guardians 3 and I saw Ant-Man 3. I skipped Black Panther 2 and then, after Ant-Man 3, I was like I'm kind of done.

Speaker 3 42:57

I only got back into them because we started doing stuff like this, where I'm kind of forced to see Captain America New World Order or whatever.

Speaker 1 43:05

Right, right, which you liked.

Speaker 3 43:08

Which I liked.

Speaker 1 43:08

I thought it was perfectly fine trash, it's like.

Speaker 3 43:12

I'm happy to go to McDonald's and KFC every once in a while.

Speaker 1 43:16

The thing for me is I watched, I watched Bucky and Falcon and I was like that's hot man. I was like so mad and like yeah, and and that made me mad, but I'm like I'm going to stick on here for a moon night, cause I've always been a big moon Knight guy and that really sucked too.

Speaker 2 43:36

And I was really depressed by that. I don't think any of the Disney Plus shows really worked outside of maybe WandaVision, depending on who you are, I mean. I thought.

Speaker 1 43:43

WandaVision was good, but I mean no, I thought it was totally dumb.

Speaker 3 43:47

I watched one episode of that and I had no yeah, that was stupid. As someone who is a connoisseur of 1960s sitcoms and stuff too, I was just like I have no interest in this. I was like I could, yeah it was not.

Speaker 1 44:01

It'll be bad, sorry, but like they, they just string you along on some shit and then, at the end, what vision fights a another vision or something, and then, yeah, they were cutting back I guess that was the early days before the writing on the wall that marvel was going downhill.

Speaker 2 44:16

So I think I think for what we were getting I was like this is pretty good.

Speaker 1 44:19

But I don't know, maybe if I rewatch it now I'll be like everybody forgets that half that show too was a bunch of like c-grade characters hanging out in a van like monitoring the situation the whole time and then we cut back to like a 1950s tv thing.

Speaker 1 44:33

I don't know yeah, I didn't really care for those scenes, those were, those are the beginning of the dark days yeah, man, but like, this was cool because it was on its own, and now that we're bringing it back to the whole thing, I'm like I don't know, man, I'm not I think part of the reason why I was so turned tuned out of the marvel films at that time was that.

Speaker 3 44:53

I know people will probably laugh or whatever, but on the CW they had. The Arrowverse was in full swing at that time.

Speaker 1 44:59

Oh, you were into that.

Speaker 3 45:01

Yes, because I'm a diehard DC guy and I know that's not some people's cup of tea at all, but for me that worked because that was doing what I like most, which is episodic superhero adventures on a weekly basis where you have a villain of the week and it builds to a larger story and there's longer character arcs and, yeah, the acting is hokey and the you know the um, the special effects are not very great, but it worked. It had its moment in the sun, where it was. It was pretty decent and there were a lot of interconnected shows and you had something to watch every night and so I was like I don't, I don't need to go see these marvel movies that I don't like care about the characters so much.

Speaker 1 45:38

I, you know, I'll take this and you don't, because you're not really a marvel guy, right? I mean, you really know? I mean I, I, I have.

Speaker 3 45:45

I have a lot of marvel comics and I read a lot back in the day, but like I always just considered the DC characters my go-to, you know characters.

Speaker 1 45:51

Yeah, and I think me and Vince are Marvel guys, right? Would you say that's true, Vince?

Speaker 2 45:55

Yeah, I would say like, growing up my heroes were like Spider-Man, hulk, Fantastic Four. I did grow up a huge Superman fan and a Batman fan and like the animated Justice League cartoon show. So I did love DC, but I'd say Marvel took the cake for me back in the day.

Speaker 1 46:19

I was such a Marvel head back in the day when I was a kid that I skipped seeing Batman Begins in the theater and I went and saw Sky High instead. Remember that. Remember that Literally.

Speaker 2 46:28

Oh my gosh Sky High, I had the choice.

Speaker 1 46:29

My parents were, like what do you want to go see, batman or Sky High? And sky, I had the choice. My parents, like what do you want to go see batman or sky high? And I was like sky high. Remember when they used to do stuff like that, it's like do a movie then.

Speaker 3 46:39

Then you think like generic generic superhero movies that are not based on anything, because they were just trying to cash in on the trend, like hancock or sky high, my super exfriend it's like why don't we don't get any trash like that anymore? How come?

Speaker 1 46:55

I know, or Superhero Movie with Leslie Nielsen and Drake Bell.

Speaker 3 47:00

Oh, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 47:01

Yeah, okay, here we have. Brandon Tran in the chat. Says the best Fox-era movies were Logan. I don't like that movie. X-men Days of Future Past, deadpool terrible. And X-Men First Class Good.

Speaker 3 47:13

X-Men First Class and Future Class you guys don't like Logan.

Speaker 1 47:16

No, I hated that. I didn't like the movie at all. Yeah, really yeah. No, I thought it was. It insists upon itself to borrow the. I thought that was a try-hard-ass movie. I'm hit or miss on James Mangold.

Speaker 2 47:29

I thought it was an ugly movie it was an ugly movie.

Speaker 1 47:32

It was a bad-looking ugly, gray, bland, flat.

Speaker 3 47:39

Whoa, you're not allowed to discuss the visual aesthetic of a movie. That's just too juvenile.

Speaker 2 47:42

I mean I think it fits with the comic book they're adapting Old man Logan.

Speaker 1 47:46

No, no, it doesn't no. Well, it goes to show what I know about comics Old man Logan is a great comic, but it only works as a larger piece of the Marvel Universe because Mark Millar is doing his little thing and if you take the other superheroes out of it it doesn't work.

Speaker 3 48:04

Also, I'm not a fan of deconstruction, superhero stories in general. I mean you can say Watchmen is that, but that exists on a different level entirely compared to, like a lot of other things, and so maybe I'm old fashioned, but I kind of like just give it to me straight. You know, plain and simple, there's some. That's why that's why I enjoyed Superman on that level, is that Superman is basically I described it in our previous video is like going into a opening up a random issue of a bronze age comics from like 1975. You just get a decent story that starts in the middle, it goes through the motions and at the end we're done and like I feel satisfied enough that I got something out of it. It's not changing the world, it's not reinventing the wheel, but it's like it feels solid and it feels like you know, good comfort food that's not for but like it worked for me.

Speaker 1 48:55

I didn't like Logan for the same reason I didn't like Indiana Jones five. I thought those were basically the same movie, yeah.

Speaker 2 49:02

I think I think Logan kind of lends itself to that. That, yeah, you're right. But Indiana, I agree with you. Like Indiana Jones, five is a piece of garbage and I'm a die-hard indiana jones fan.

Speaker 1 49:15

I walked out of that movie so disappointed, like I think I think, indiana jones doesn't in any way I went and saw dial of destiny with my brother, gus, who you guys have both met, and um, we walked out of it and we're like, you know, like it wasn't a bad movie, but it was just, I mean like in and of itself, but like.

Speaker 3 49:39

This was not needed, it was just like whatever, like why?

Speaker 1 49:42

Let it die.

Speaker 3 49:42

Let it. Why ruin the legacy for a few extra bucks, like you know?

Speaker 1 49:49

so Okay, we have a trip six and ghost, you know? So Okay, we have a trip six and ghost. These are no doubt the craziest takes for movies I've ever seen. Okay, so I will tell you, my friend, I'm going to be real and I'm I'm not going to fall for this. Uh oh, cape shit, I hate superhero movies. I'm not going to fall for that, but I cause, I am going to give credit where credit is due. Endgame and Infinity War are really good movies. Those are good. I like them a lot. Also, x-men, days of the First Class that's a great movie. That's a cool-ass movie. I haven't seen it in a long time, but when I first saw it I remember it was really neat. But yeah, logan was a movie that left a bad taste in my mouth. I haven't rewatched it. I get what they're trying to do.

Speaker 3 50:31

It's unfor the logan. You know, I don't know the whole thing with logan and deadpool and all those things. It's like just trying to push the envelope too far to be edgy and appeal to like stupid a prepubescent crowd of, like you know, 12 and 13 year olds thinking this is like the edgiest stuff in the universe.

Speaker 3 50:46

It's just it's tiresome and it kind of wears. The first deadpool is like fine I, I. I saw that one and I enjoyed it for what it was, but but I have no desire to ever watch that again and I skipped out on the sequels. I've had my one movie and I'm like don't beat this horse to death beyond this.

Speaker 1 51:02

Not as much Ryan Reynolds comedy as I can handle. Go ahead, vince. What are you going to say?

Speaker 2 51:05

I'll say I typically agree with you, ryan. I will say, in this more modern era where we're getting more optimistic, more faithful takes on superheroes like Fantastic Four, like Superman, I prefer that like nine times out of 10, like most days, like that's what I gravitate toward. That's why I liked Superman so much, cause like oh, this actually feels like the comics, even more so than than Christopher Reeves or anything we've done we've gotten before. This feels like a comic book and and same goes for fantastic. For I think at the time, like I was just like unique, like filmmakers doing unique takes on superheroes. Like oh, yeah, let's do unforgiven with with Wolverine, cool Sounds good to me. But if this, if we're entering a new era where we're just going to do like embrace the zaniness and embrace the weirdness level, like the Batman comic books or even the Superman comic books, like, I'm all in because I don't need any more deconstruction.

Speaker 3 52:03

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure that's. That's also part of the reason I really liked Superman a lot is that it, um, it takes a lot of the silver age concepts and ideas and it presents them in a more like not realistic, but like a more semi-serious way. Yeah, it's a what'd you say, palatable? Yeah, yeah, exactly Like a way that makes sense for a movie, that it is still kind of goofy and silly, but it's presenting it semi-seriously enough that you take it so like, for instance, crypto is a good example of how they they handle that in the movie.

Speaker 3 52:34

It is presented, at least for the majority of the beginning of the movie is like just, it's there, the crypto is there, he exists. He is just a dog with uh superpowers and a cape and he's, he's going around the movie and then, yes, at certain times later characters will especially mr terrific is very uh well played for that. That aspect of the movie is saying like there's a superpower dog flying around here. You know things like that, so you can comment on it later on in a way that is like you know, acknowledging it, but it's played otherwise straight, which is how I think a lot of these silver age concepts can work, if you have to like wink at the camera consistently by, not by saying these things are all stupid, it just doesn't work, or trying to make them too serious.

Speaker 1 53:17

it doesn't work to make it make sense in your own universe.

Speaker 2 53:20

Go ahead yeah, I, I thought it was. It was fun when, um the kaiju is attacking metropolis and there are people who are just kind of like milling around in there at the office. Like lois is watching the TV and she's just like. She's like having a conversation with her coworker.

Speaker 3 53:38

Yeah, matt Grant, yeah, my favorite.

Speaker 2 53:41

Right, yeah, yeah Like another day. Superman fighting a monster. I was like this is kind of refreshing Cause. Then when, when there are real stakes, you'll you'll feel it all the more than when you're you're with the characters and they're

Speaker 3 54:01

experiencing something that is their everyday life. Yeah, I just like Superman Again. My high points for Superman was that this felt like the closest representation to a comic book universe Superman than we've ever seen before. I mean all the love and respect to the Christopher Reeve number one and number two, like still the best, still the best.

Speaker 2 54:19

Oh yeah.

Superman: A Return to Comic Accuracy

Speaker 3 54:20

And big fan of Superman Returns for what it is, as a movie, as a love letter to the Richard Donner films. But this has a different vibe. This is a different animal entirely and this is something that finally gets to what a post-crisis modern Superman adaptation should have been like. We've never moved past that's. The problem is that the Christopher Reeve Richard Donner films were excellent for their time period. They nailed it, they completely did everything right for that era. But it's time to move on to something different.

Speaker 3 54:55

Superman has been a different entity completely since then in the comics, especially since Crisis on Infinite Earths and the John Byrne reboot of Superman. So now we're getting finally that and I'm talking specifically about Lex Luthor here who were getting these very weird interpretations and extrapolations of the character. I mean Batman v Superman. The interpretation of Lex Luthor is not even I would not even call it a valid version of the character at all. It's completely whole cloth made up. So this we do see him as a titan of industry, as someone who is important in Metropolis. He's not swindling little old ladies out of their fortune like in Superman Returns and he sees himself. It's not quite delineated like explicitly in terms of his motivation.

Speaker 1 55:48

He was a titan of industry in man of Steel because he was like Mark Zuckerberg bro.

Speaker 3 55:53

He was the Zuckerberg. Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 55:55

Very topical man.

Speaker 3 55:58

But what I liked here is that he does see himself kind of as that Prometheus-like, modern-day Prometheus-like character. He resents the capes, he resents the metahuman superheroes and wants to take them down, whether that's by his own self envy or for whatever selfish reason he has. That at least, is somewhat represented in the character, which is kind of refreshing to see.

Speaker 1 56:23

Which we talked about it and you articulated better than James Gunn, but he has the sort of like.

Speaker 3 56:28

He's like the peak Faustian human being, right, yeah, and he's been outdone by the superheroes and that pisses him off, which you would piss yeah, he sees himself as the pinnacle of humanity and and for all intents and purposes he kind of is, except he's gone nuts and he's evil. To a certain extent, you know, or a large extent, you know, he's, he's, you know, genocidal or or homicidal, or whatever you want to call it, but he has all the attributes that would make him the peak of humanity. But he sees this alien as someone who doesn't deserve what he's getting, that he didn't have to work for, he didn't have to fight for it, and so he resents that.

Speaker 1 57:08

There's a little nugget there that we talked about Ryan, where as much as the libs are saying, oh, lex Luthor and Superman is Elon Musk. Well, he kind of is, because I think that like Elon has the same relationship with Donald Trump that like Lex has with Superman in this film where he goes why the fuck is that guy Number one when I'm the smartest guy here, right, you know, I think that's the trump elon dynamic that's happening in real life, but go ahead did you guys read um all-star superman?

Speaker 2 57:39

oh, yeah, yeah, I I just because I I had heard it was one of the source materials that they based this version on. So I I picked it up and I read it, and I'm glad I did, because it really gives you a good reference to where the basis of this characters are coming from. Like I really enjoy the interpretation of lex and the comic really gets into like yeah, he, like you said ryan, like he is jealous of superman because lexus had to work for everything he has and he is where he is at because of that work ethic and because of his intellect and everything else. Superman just comes in, he comes down to earth and he has everything, everything he needs to do, what he wants to do. He's also super nice people like him, like he is just like effortlessly beloved and lex has had to work hard to get to where he is and so he just it just drives him him crazy. And also seeing um superman's portrayal in the, in the comic too, like channeling the, the weight he carries on himself and also just the, the kindness, like the message of this film really resonated with me, like we just need to be kinder, nicer to each other like I I've been. I've been writing, um, I wrote a review for this movie uh, for blaze media and the thing I tried to emphasize because everybody I talked to was like, oh but superman's woke, this movie's woke, I heard it's woke, he's an immigrant or all.

Speaker 2 59:04

It's like people you don't know what you're talking about. But james gunn said it's political. You still don't know what you're talking about. Like the movie's about kindness and to me, in our current political state left right, republican, democrat, conservative, liberal like we're not, like none of these political institutions are going to fix anything. It's kind of up to us to fix the country as best we can, and screaming at each other and calling us, calling each other ists and fobs is not, is not going to fix that. So that's my brief little political soapbox, but I just really enjoyed the message of the film and and the, I guess, anti-political message it had.

Speaker 1 59:51

Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's fair and to talk to speak to all-star superman. I think ryan made a great point when we were on lores's show where I think in all-star superman the key to that character that we don't get in the james gunn is that the the uh, frank, quietly grant morris and superman is a lot more like a paul bunyan, all all American sort of like mythic icon that he is in the Donner films. Then we do get in in James Gunn's movie where he's very much like a coming of age young guy trying to learn the ropes and find his place in the world. Ryan, am I wrong?

Speaker 3 1:00:27

I completely agree. Yeah, the, the, the, the all-star Superman. I don't really see a lot of all star Superman in this movie.

Speaker 3 1:00:46

I see this more as kind of an amalgamation of many different eras of Superman, all kind of mashed together, which is which is kind of how they used to do it back in the early 2000s when you would get Sam Raimi Spider-Man or Bryan Singer's X-Men.

Speaker 3 1:00:51

Yeah, kind of just take cherry, pick the best elements from all different eras and kind of just put them in a big blender and mix it up and be like, okay, I want to do this, I want to do that, like let's take a silver age element here, let's take a bronze age element here, we'll take a post-crisis thing here and we'll kind of make it work, and so that that works well for the movie. In terms of showing things we haven't seen before, I think they could have gone a little further. I'm surprised they didn't, actually for a couple of things, like for the fortress of solitude, which is, for my money, portrayed much more nicely than in the. The Donner films, which is the ice crystal palace, is an interesting take, but like it's functionally useless. This was more kind of in keeping with how it should be, but I'm surprised they did not have the giant key that would unlock the door.

Speaker 3 1:01:32

Cause that would have been a great moment too, because it's something right up his alley, right. I mean that would have been totally a James gun thing that there's a giant key in the middle of Antarctica.

Speaker 1 1:01:40

I was telling the guy to lift it to to break in. When I, when I see the, the James gun, Batman, I want the bat cave to have a big dinosaur in it and a giant penny and a bunch of other. You know, you know what I mean. Like I want it to be the silver age Batman.

Speaker 2 1:01:55

Go Zany, go go nuts.

Speaker 3 1:01:57

And and uh, have some, have some color in the costume, have some, some, uh, blue and gray, you know, not just all black outfit for that. You know, try something different. Like we're we've done the same thing over and over's, like you know. Maybe go a little batman, brave, and the bold in terms of cartoon, uh, the way, the way that series did, uh, you know at least the visual aesthetic to things. So, um, yeah, no, I mean I, I agree, I think fantastic four is a better movie, but superman is kind of like a feel-good, you know, vibes movie. I know that's not like the greatest way to like sell a movie as like it's just a, it's a good time, vibes kind of thing, but like it works, it's, it's a, it's a movie you can take the family to. It's not offensive for the kids, it's also not boring for them, but like an adult can watch it and you you can enjoy it and it's, you know it is what it is.

Speaker 1 1:02:53

That's a great point you you made ryan about. Like, the amalgamation and that's something that we've kind of lost too is, um, you know, when sam ramey was making spider-man, he had no idea that in 20 years there would be two different iterations of it and a crossover avengers movie. When he was making spider-man one and two he was like okay, I'm making the spider-man movie, so I want to pull from all the greatest things and I want to make the sort of ultimate idea of spider-man in the film, like donner did you know there was. There was never an idea that you would ever have a filmmaker being like well, the pure inspiration for my movie is this one particular comic which we got from, like you know, uh. Comic which we got from, like you know, uh, snyder with batman superman, right where he was like I read frank miller, dark knight returns. That's what the movie's about, right, and so I miss that.

Speaker 1 1:03:41

I miss that, that, that feeling that the director goes I have the burden of 40 years of comic book history on my shoulders. I'm going to translate this grand idea of Spider-Man to the big screen. Now it's like we get a new iteration version every five years and that gets sort of it loses its luster, you know. So, like you said, for Superman to say it's an amalgam, and like we're going to try to make the ultimate Superman, that kind of you know revitalizes that a little bit for me but also adding in new elements from the comics that for many years previous would be, not be, would be considered taboo for a movie, because audiences will not accept these silly concepts.

Speaker 3 1:04:24

Audiences will accept anything as long as you play it straight and are are you know, put your cards out for them. Like crypto. Crypto is a is a really stupid idea. All these concepts are stupid on their face, right? I mean you can say that with anything, but you can make it work and I think this movie plays it.

James Gunn's Approach to Superman

Speaker 3 1:04:40

I would have not done some of the stupid humor with crypto that james gunn did. I thought that's where he let his excesses take control the movie in a movie that's otherwise kind of restrained for him. I'm talking about like the opening scene of the movie in a movie that's otherwise kind of restrained for him. I'm talking about like the opening scene of the movie which was shown in the the trailer when they first released it, where he calls an injured superman, calls to crypto and crypto, then runs to him and attacks him because he's a bad dog like that, to me, was not needed at that moment. That could have been a more dramatic, serious moment, where the dog runs up to him and then stops and sees that you know he's injured and then kind of cocks his head or looks around, but instead they play it for laughs I know the audience, the audience loved it, but for me I yeah, when superman lex luther having their mano a mano dialogue showdown and then, you know, crypto beats up lex luther, I was like, oh yeah, is that?

Speaker 3 1:05:35

underwrites all of the dramatic tension.

Speaker 2 1:05:37

They're having a very, very heated, you know, verbal confrontation there and they just take all the life out of it by doing that and the audience was yucking it up laughing and you know they were just trying to, they were just trying to create that, recreate that loki uh, loki hulk moment from avengers is what it was, in my opinion yeah yeah yeah, the one thing, the one problem I had with crypto as much as I liked him in the movie is that there's never like a moment where superman and like, like because the whole movie crypto is just like a menace and there's never a moment where crypto and superman like, like, their their relationship, like elevates, or crypto does something heroic, like crypto is just constantly this just dumb dog. That Superman because he's so kind and loving to everybody, he just was like this guy. This dog's a pain in my butt, but I'm going to, I'm going to save it because I care about everybody and it's my cousin's dog.

Speaker 1 1:06:31

I'll put. I'll push back on that, because I think there's a moment where Superman's at his lowest point and he's like almost died and he's at the Kent family house and he's on the bed and Crypto just sits on his stomach and looks at him and is calm for a moment. That was nice and also I thought the portrayal of the Kents was fantastic, but they were terrific.

Speaker 3 1:06:50

Yeah, we got some comments, comments, questions here about what do you think about the?

Speaker 3 1:06:56

treatment of jor-el and lara fine with me, yeah, it didn't bother me at all. I actually it did bother me when I first saw the movie and I was like are they really gonna denigrate the krypton parents here? And then, when I thought about it longer, I'm like you know what I can live with that there. I would have been much, much more upset had they denigrated the Kents and said that that upbringing or that aspect of his character was somehow tainted and flawed and stuff Instead. No, they go the Midwestern values from the heartland that makes him you know the character he is and I'm like okay, that's that works for me.

Speaker 2 1:07:40

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think we've gotten. We've gotten enough like really solid adaptations of Jor-El. My money is on Russell Crowe. I think he was the best we had gotten of jor-el.

Speaker 3 1:07:53

Um, so I I think brando, brando the king, yeah, the godfather I'm.

Speaker 2 1:08:00

He was good, but I I think there was more to uh russell crowe's version, but no seeing them shake up the jor-el dynamic and just like doing something different with the character. Like we, we had already seen jor-el be the loving father that sent uh, sent superman to earth and all that like it was fun to see something different and like, okay, yeah, and, and to your point, ryan, like it.

Speaker 2 1:08:24

It um highlights how important his earthly parents are, his upbringing is, and and it's cool how that, how the movie parallels like at the beginning he's wounded and then he goes to his Krypton home and he sees the message from his parents and that comforts him, and then at the end, when he's injured by the Kryptonite, he goes to the Kent farm and that's that's kind of established Like this. This is his, his home, this is what gives him comfort, this is what he roots his identity and no long and no longer the the kryptonian heritage yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 1:09:01

I think the right wing basically beclowned themselves on the internet for falling for the bait on um superman's an immigrant, because basically the movie is like the interesting thing too is we only ever hear from the krypton parents and they're speaking in some kind of weird foreign language. Like they could have easily like fixed that by having the robots and the fortress of solitude say, like now translating to english, but like they don't do that, so they just seem like this foreign, bizarre other you know what I mean like which is kind of uh, interesting to be fair, I don't see why they would.

Speaker 2 1:09:34

I mean, if they understand the kryptonian language, I don't see why they would want to translate it well, my point is like for the audience, though, to like if james gunn yeah, yeah, if james gunn wanted to humanize them more.

Speaker 1 1:09:46

He could have done that right, but like he didn't, because in the mind of james gunn he goes oh, they'll seem weirder and less likable if they speak in a foreign language, which is sort of a very like right wing idea. That's like pervading this movie. Am I wrong?

Speaker 3 1:10:00

Right, so like it's sort of an interesting, also the whole the whole thing about, like your birth parents versus your adoptive parents, which is a very common aspect to a lot of comic book characters versus your adoptive parents, which is a very common, you know, aspect to a lot of comic book characters. I think it's kind of the birth parents are more relevant for Superman because the Kryptonian heritage actually does play a role in some of the stories and characters that he will encounter, because oftentimes there's, like you know, kind of sins of the father. The sins of Jor-El come back to haunt, you know, Kal-El Okay, where the sins of Jor-El come back to haunt Kal-El Okay. So there's some relevance there. But comparing that to Spider-Man, I could not stand when they did that in the Amazing Spider-Man movies, where they were like let's focus on what Richard and Mary Parker were up to and it's like that is completely irrelevant.

Speaker 3 1:10:47

The whole point is that Uncle Ben and Aunt May raised Peter as their own son and those are the characters that are important. So that uncle ben and aunt may raised peter as their own son and those are the characters that are important. So that focus, that shifting to the kent's really, uh, didn't did speak to me in terms of that kind of same dynamic there it's like the kent's are the more important um parental figures.

Speaker 1 1:11:05

for him like hands down, there's no comparison in the way that if you, if someone, were to tell you ryan, oh you know, spider-man is fundamentally the story about someone who was adopted, you'd be like what? It doesn't make any sense. No, it's not like superman, as an immigrant doesn't make sense to me because superman's story really is about an average guy who grows up thinking he's normal and realizes he has a special magical lineage, you know. Yeah, the fact that he moved from one place to another has nothing to do with it. It's very much like a King Arthur situation or Star Wars. It's like oh, my parents were actually special and different and interesting.

Speaker 3 1:11:41

It's not the immigration thing when he became an immigrant he was as an infant, so it's not that he has the memory or the recollection of what it was like to grow up on krypton and all stuff like that, so it's kind of a different situation there yeah what?

Speaker 3 1:12:00

uh, we have a question here. Uh, what about your thoughts about superman's line about crypto? He is not even a good dog, but is out there alone and scared. To me, this line that pretty much sums up superman. Yeah, he cares about everyone, and I mentioned in our other video about this he's presented in as a very kind of like naive, especially like politically naive.

Speaker 3 1:12:19

Millennial is the way I look at the way Superman is portrayed in this movie. Everything is kind of like cut and dry, black and white. He has no nuance or sophisticated viewpoints. It's like people are going to die. So therefore, I needed to intervene. I did not think about the consequences of any of my actions or things like that, and it's a very you know, maybe infantile way of thinking about the world. But that's why other characters are there to kind of step in and say hey, you exist in this world, you have consequences to your actions. There are other things that involved here and it's not like the Snyder verse, where it's like you know, we're going to have a intense political discussion at a uh, a Senate subcommittee hearing on the nature of Superman and whether or not he is a force for good or evil. It's like we don't need to get so heavy handed, but like it presents these things that you can at least think about them.

Speaker 1 1:13:14

So I'll bring up something here and not to make us go on for much longer, because I know, Vince, how much longer can you stick around?

Snyder's DC Universe: A Discussion

Speaker 2 1:13:20

I got about 20 minutes.

Speaker 1 1:13:21

OK. So I want to ask you this You're a Snyder guy, correct?

Speaker 2 1:13:27

You know, upon reflection, I really like man of Steel you don't have to moderate for us.

Speaker 1 1:13:31

Stand up for what you believe in.

Speaker 2 1:13:33

No seriously, I've been reflecting on this. I really like man of Steel and I like his Justice League. Honestly, outside of that, I would not consider myself a huge fan.

Speaker 1 1:13:45

You don't like Batman v Superman. That's the best one in my opinion. That's the best one yeah.

Speaker 2 1:13:48

I think it has interesting ideas.

Speaker 3 1:13:54

I think it's ultimately flawed.

Speaker 2 1:13:55

Oh yeah, they're all, they're all flawed, though they're all like that one deal is like one of the worst movies I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, I second that yeah, yeah on the record.

Speaker 3 1:14:05

I'll get that on the record.

Speaker 2 1:14:06

I second that george and I have been debating man of steel since 2013.

Speaker 1 1:14:11

Yeah, true, but Batman vs Superman I thought was also bad, but Ben Affleck is so good in it.

Speaker 2 1:14:18

He's great.

Speaker 3 1:14:19

He's fantastic. Snyder clearly liked Batman a lot more and did him justice in that movie, much, much more so than he ever had any interest in doing Superman besides his own kind of perverted version of it. That's why Batman V Superman, at least somewhat, functions as a like interesting film is that the Batman scenes are thrilling. I mean, I just remember the scene where he's like crouched in the the corner of the room and like he just looks fricking massive and he's going to attack the cop or whatever. The Batmobile scenes, the fight in the warehouse, like those are all great moments from batman v superman like accurate batman, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 1:14:59

I think if superman had been given the same amount of care in batman v superman, I'd be saying. I'd be saying, yeah, it's actually the better film, but he really gets the short end of the stick I.

Speaker 1 1:15:11

I would say I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of Batman killing people. I don't think he needs to be the Punisher and just execute people. But if some crook gets murked in the melee, okay fine. Who cares? Right like tim burton but like or no?

Speaker 3 1:15:28

no one did that well in batman begins yeah, he told racial ghoul, I don't need to save you. That's, that's the perfect way to do it. Like nothing have to be, an active participant in murdering people but, you know, not obligated to save.

Speaker 1 1:15:40

Well, you know mass murdering criminals doesn't he throw a giant crate at a guy and like he just kills him in batman versus superman?

Speaker 1 1:15:48

uh, but I mean he's shooting rockets out of the batmobile and like blowing up entire things on the dock there or whatever zach snyder is a big ayn rand guy, you know, and you know I have, you know, I, you know. Say what you want about the tenets of ayn rand dude at least it's an ethos. But like the incredibles is the best ayn rand superhero movie and like superman is just not the character to do that kind of thing with. You know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 1:16:17

How is the Incredibles an Ayn Randian film? I haven't seen that since it came out, so you're going to have to explain that to me.

Speaker 1 1:16:25

It absolutely is. It's because it's like, literally, the plot of Atlas Shrugged.

Speaker 1 1:16:29

It's like the Ellsworth Tooey people trying to bring down the special people and like even the bad guy says it, he goes when everyone's super, no one will be. He wants to eliminate super people who are better achievers and bring everyone down to the same level. He's like a communist, basically, and it's a movie about super special people who are like brought low by society. Right, they make them illegal and like force them to. You know. And then also, I think I have a strong grounding for this because Brad Bird then made his movie Remember that a super smart George Clooney land, where they remember that where they remember that.

Speaker 1 1:17:08

Yes, the plot of that is literally atlas shrugged, where all the smart people move to an island so they can be away from all the people that didn't want to let them be smart. That's literally the plot of atlas shrugged.

Speaker 3 1:17:18

So I think I have good grounding here for like I believe you, I hadn't seen, hadn't, I've not seen tomorrowland and I have not seen incredible since. Uh, whatever, 2004, so fine, but like superman, ayn rand version with, like zach snyder, where kevin.

Speaker 1 1:17:28

I have not seen incredible since whatever 2004. So fine, but like Superman, I ran version with like Zack Snyder where Kevin Costner is like maybe you should. You don't like his mom being like. You don't owe this world a thing.

Speaker 1 1:17:39

You should go be yourself and be your own person. Completely wrong. I turned into like a Roosevelt new dealer. When I see shit like that, so disgusting, it's like no. Superman is like a liberal new dealer character. Sorry, that's what he is like. No, he has to be an altruist like. He can't be this kind of like selfish guy. You know also watch the trailers.

Speaker 3 1:18:04

I watched the trailers for for a lot of the snyder dc films again recently, just to kind of see, and it just seems like they're just full-on parodies of themselves at a certain point, like all of the highfalutin, you know pseudo-philosophical dialogue about. You know all these grandiose ideas that amount to nothing. And it's like you know there's, I think, the teaser for Batman v Superman is like just all a bunch of talking heads in the background, like charlie rose and neil degrasse tyson talking about well, is this man a savior or or the end of humanity? And it's like like, what is this like? Who is this for what? What are we trying to do?

Speaker 1 1:18:44

what do we do? Like it works in watchman, like it's a movie I just was watching watchman a little bit uh last week. Like they literally have pat buchanan in watchman. Remember that. So like zach snyder is like right wing, let's give me a break. Otherwise who would put pat buchanan and cast somebody to play pat buchanan as a movie?

Speaker 2 1:19:05

remember that where they do the uh I'll actually have to go back and watch that part.

Speaker 1 1:19:09

No, at the beginning of the movie the comedian is watching the McLaughlin Hour on TV right and they're like Pat Buchanan, what do you think? And I'm like okay, so I can't give Snyder too much shit.

Speaker 3 1:19:21

But see, it works for Watchmen, because that is the entire point of that story. That story is meant to elicit all of those thoughts and ideas that that story is meant to elicit all of those thoughts and ideas.

Speaker 3 1:19:29

That's that's what I mean. That's what Alan Moore designed that to be in the first place. So, and it works, because it is meant to be this deconstructionist look at superheroes and all the, the, the, you know, the light. It doesn't work when you're going and doing it as Batman and Superman, which is, you know, if everything is deconstructing everything, then what? What else do we? What? What legs do we have to stand on you?

Speaker 1 1:19:51

know, the biggest problem for me with Batman, Superman, is when Lex Luthor like tied up Martha Kent and is going to burn her alive with a flame shower and then showed Superman Polaroid photos of him torturing his mom and I'm like what are we doing? What is this?

Speaker 3 1:20:12

Best moment in the bvs trailers like uh cut to, uh jesse eisenberg's the the red capes are coming, the red capes are coming. And it's like what a stupid, what a stupid phrase. Like why is lex luther saying this? What, what, what is this? What does that have to do with anything?

Speaker 3 1:20:24

like I would have written in college, like I wrote a script for a movie that was like, based on all my like brand new george orwell and like noam chomsky knowledge, and like it was like high school level, man come on yeah, it very much, so yeah it's like what a 12 or 13 year old thinks is like the most cutting edge you know um epic, some young shit deep level of superhero lore and it's like we're taking it to the next level. This is some deep shit. I'm gonna have Neil deGrasse Tyson explain. You know why Superman is a metaphysical figure in our society, you know? Have him on Bill Maher and Charlie Rose show you know we've got 1001, johnny saying how was ZSJL after BBS?

Speaker 1 1:21:09

I don't know what that means that's the Zack Snyder cut.

Speaker 3 1:21:11

I never saw it.

Speaker 1 1:21:12

I never saw it. I know, vince, you watched the zack snyder yeah I saw it, um, I liked it.

Speaker 2 1:21:18

Um, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I was. I mean, compared to, uh, joss whedon's justice league, it's an infinitely better movie. Um, it's more of snyder just throwing in everything he wanted to do with these characters as just kind of like one last hurrah for DC than it is like a movie. So I think that's also a good framing for it. If you go at it with that mind you might, you might like it. I honestly think it might have worked better as like a mini-series too, because it's like it's like six parts, it's four hours long. I mean, my dad, I watched it with my dad. He and I had to get. We spent like two nights getting through it, so it's not exactly like.

Speaker 3 1:22:00

I think it took me like four days to watch it.

Speaker 2 1:22:02

To be honest, yeah, it's not like you can just like sit down and and and with the wife and pop some popcorn and then go to bed afterwards. It's going to take a while.

Speaker 3 1:22:15

In the end, though, it's ultimately too pretentious and full of itself. In my opinion. Even something like putting it in 4x3 aspect ratio. That's the director's intent.

Speaker 2 1:22:26

It's like no it wasn't Give me a break, no one's framing anything for 4x three nowadays like stop it okay, he throws in like an extension on the on the nightmare sequence. Oh god, yes, he's not in his backyard because it's like you know, screw warner brothers, I'm gonna do whatever I want. And then that's what fueled um, all the snyder bros, to be like release the the snyder verse and sell it all the netflix so we can see part two, three, four and five. It's like, guys, it's not gonna happen that is hilarious.

Speaker 3 1:22:57

The the four by three aspect ratio is so pretentious like it is, it is, it's entirely pretentious and then they just throw in like other random stuff, like it's. It was kind of cool. I'll admit it was kind of cool when you actually got to see dark side and some of the the you know, the hordes of Apocalypse in the background standing there. They don't speak, they don't do anything, they're kind of just like in the boom tube. You see them like about to enter earth and that was. I was like oh wow, finally get to see Darkseid and DeSade and Kalabak and all these people and it's like they don't do anything. And then martian manhunter's there for like five seconds and it's like okay, cool. But we also saw him as a main character on supergirl for like a couple years, so I don't really care yeah yeah, I gotta revisit these movies.

Speaker 2 1:23:41

I haven't seen the snyder films in years so, honestly, if I revisit them now, maybe my opinion will change completely oh, I was also like I was also convinced like, okay, this is, this is our cinema dc cinematic universe, so I'm gonna try to enjoy it and now I'm all in. We have now that I know we have a much better version to look forward to, I I think I can. I can put that opinion or that perspective aside and judge them as they are I for one.

Speaker 3 1:24:10

I'm glad that it's dead and buried, the snyder verse honestly, I prefer what we're getting over, yeah well, I, I will.

Speaker 3 1:24:17

I will reserve judgment for the future because if supergirl movie, which doesn't need to be made, uh, in my opinion at all, but if that's what we're getting and it's going to be like the short cameo at the end of the superman movie, that just looks like complete waste of time, not interested at all. If that's what we're going to get, like a drunk uh party girl, super girl going around another world, it's like I'm not interested.

Speaker 1 1:24:39

Thanks, I'll pass on that you know what her character arc is going to be. That, oh, I can't be drunk anymore. I have to be a hero now right perhaps perhaps it'll be a complete comedy farce.

Speaker 3 1:24:50

Perhaps it'll be a complete comedy farce. We're gonna read some chats, ryan yeah, what are your thoughts about the relevance of the Justice Gang guy is full of personality, terrific from being proper at first, then talking like Chris Tucker later on.

Speaker 1 1:25:02

And Hawkgirl had that one kill he didn't talk like Chris Tucker, he talked like he was like in an old blaxploitation movie which I thought mr terrific was the definite breakout, standout character this movie.

Speaker 3 1:25:15

Uh, definitely want to see more of him, like I would hands down get, give me a mr terrific movie instead of a supergirl movie.

Speaker 1 1:25:22

I'll take that, yeah, pronto okay, hot girl, hot girl had that one kill was. Was she Jason Voorhees?

Speaker 3 1:25:29

Yeah, she kills the president of Boravia or whatever that character. I'm sorry. As much as I don't like comedy in a lot of these movies, that guy had me laughing out loud the most Every time he was on screen, putting on the full Boris Badenov, rocky and Bullwinkle impression he's like. And I hear the Boravian women are the most delectable to superman. It's like he has them in his harem and I was like that was funny it was funny for me because it was just so stupid and ridiculous. I was just okay.

Speaker 1 1:26:02

So this is something I want to. This is something I want to address. Brandon, thank you very much for being here on the chat. Thank you, but I have to say his quote here is superman is depressed and drunk in her cameo because that's her character in supergirl, woman of tomorrow comic. I don't give a fuck if it's in a comic. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, if it's a dumb idea, don't do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, we see this all the time with superman, where they're like oh, didn't you? You know, superman is actually a massive libtard. Didn't you read this one comic from two years ago? You must not like the comics.

Speaker 3 1:26:35

Didn't you read that issue where he renounced his US citizenship at the United Nations?

Speaker 1 1:26:39

Yeah, you must not like the comic. I don't care about the comics, dude.

Speaker 2 1:26:46

What's the general character of Supergirl in the comics? Because I'm assuming it's not that one there's.

Speaker 3 1:26:51

There's many different versions and the character has changed so much over the years but like generally it's just like I like the interpretation they did on the the supergirl tv show was was quite good she's. She's kind of like just a you know, uh, small town girl who goes to the big city and it's kind of like in over her head, earnest and full of like spunk and charm, it's kind of like.

Speaker 3 1:27:13

It's kind of like a Mary Tyler Moore show aspect of that character too, like I don't know. I that's how I would. That's how I would do it.

Speaker 2 1:27:21

Okay.

Speaker 1 1:27:22

Yeah, well, you can't do that because it's in the comic, Haven't you heard? It's in the comic called Supergirl.

Speaker 3 1:27:27

Well, if you wanted to do a comic. You could do the one where she, she's like a robot alien life form thing inhabiting. I don't remember exactly the in the 90s. It was super weird. It was like completely made no sense. I'd have to go back and look what. I forgot what it was called. It was some other alien life form that thought she was Supergirl and inhabiting like the body of Supergirl. Yeah, so that was in the comics.

Speaker 1 1:27:49

You can do that too, you know yeah, it was in the comics, but I, I just I had to mute superman and man of steel because I started to get people and all these guys that are snyder bros. They all have an anime avatar or a cartoon avatar. It's never a real person, right?

Speaker 3 1:28:01

so but like um definitely they were starting to debate can we talk about the action scenes in the movie and comparing them to the Snyderverse? No, because.

Speaker 1 1:28:10

Vince has to go in two minutes. No, we can't do this. I have to make my very important point.

Speaker 3 1:28:15

You don't miss the zip, zip zip and exploding buildings recreating 9-11 every five seconds in man of Steel.

Speaker 1 1:28:24

I had a good tweet that three people liked about how everyone wanted to say about Superman that, oh, that was the real movie. That was about kindness and honor and the and gravitas. I'm like, no, it's not because it was filmed like a julian assange murder video and it looked terrible and still what's that I said.

Speaker 2 1:28:42

That movie is not about kindness no, it's about like being a weird destruction murderer. Yeah nihilism.

Speaker 1 1:28:51

It's about making it look as close to like iraq war video footage as we could possibly do but I was gonna say it's borderline snuff film.

Speaker 3 1:28:58

To me at a certain point it's like who, how do you get, how do you do? People just get off on this, like the same level that you get off on watching like a traffic accident, like what. What's the enjoyment here for me? I, I don't get it.

Speaker 1 1:29:11

Yeah, it's horrible. It's terrible. But I was going to say about Twitter. I blocked Superman because I started getting people arguing and they said Henry Cavill, man of Steel, would kick the shit out of James Gunn's new Superman. He was so much more powerful, he would kick his ass, and I'm like what. I'm like. This got like 10,000 likes and I'm like what.

Speaker 3 1:29:39

It was probably like 11 years old man Come on.

Speaker 1 1:29:41

Yeah, I'm like what is your point? Like I don't what. You know, I can't. I can't do that anymore. I can't see that.

Speaker 3 1:29:52

Also I. I can't do that anymore. I can't see that Also. I just I talked a little bit About Fantastic Four, the color.

Speaker 1 1:29:57

William Holden from Network Would kick the shit out of Al Pacino In Dog Day Afternoon. That's why Network is a better movie. Okay, sorry, go ahead.

What Makes Great Superhero Adaptations

Speaker 3 1:30:06

I was just going to say to Defend some comments I made in the in the previous video which is about I liked that there was a deliberate use of bright, vivid colors in this movie and I got kind of like wrecked and destroyed in the comments, um, for that. But I think that intentionally, when you're comparing it to the previous movies the snyder verse which were um, intentionally devoid of all color, the color palette was muted intentionally to create this like barren, ashen wasteland of the of that universe, this feels very refreshing and it matches the tone of the film, which is a bright, breezy, enjoyable kind of experience. And if you think that that's childish or juvenile, then I'll so be it, but I think that that actually matters in a movie that is visually appealing, when other movies were just visually disgusting. Yeah also.

Speaker 2 1:30:59

Also isn't it important that these movies appeal?

Speaker 3 1:31:02

okay, either I froze or you don't go ahead, you're good right now I was gonna say isn't it important that these movies they should not be appealing like not not in like a yes, but they should not be appealing to like infants right, right, but like appealing as it should be like what's going on?

Speaker 2 1:31:24

like the 12 year olds, like, like they even said like they they use this they used inspiration for, like star Wars to build, build up this universe, like great, like Superman is like you know, as much as guys like us who love these characters still talk about these things like these movies should be geared towards kids, like they should be inspiring kids, not not us. Like we, you know we we've grown up with Christopher reason stuff. We had our Superman that inspired, inspired us, and I think it's it's important that these movies speak to kids and, like you know, let the kids enjoy these things. Like I, I as much as I like man of steel I'm sorry I don't think any kid's gonna pick up a man of steel figure with the muted colors, like people are definitely gonna want.

Speaker 3 1:32:09

Like a dav Cornswet figure over a Henry Cavill, my, my, my caveat for that Sorry, I don't know if I was like out of sync or something like that before, but my caveat for that was like, yes, I agree with you, but it should not be for like infants or small children. It should be like seven to eight, starting until like 15, 16. That should be the sweet spot for where these movies should be. Not for like 4 year olds or 3 year olds. It should be made for like a child that can actually like comprehend what's going on and like pay attention to the story and then all the way up to, like you know, early teens, and that an adult can watch it and be like, oh, that was good, you know.

Speaker 1 1:32:47

Yeah, for sure I agree with that I want to read 101 1001 johnny's uh chat here because he gave us five dollars. So, thank you very much, johnny, much appreciated, and I think this is something worth contemplating. But I have answered this question before. But he says I know this doesn't always resonate, but I've always seen the Snyder works as something akin to Lord of the Rings trilogy makes me think of Alex Ross's work. I would agree with you, but I've talked about this before on Twitter, where you guys should follow me.

Speaker 1 1:33:19

The form of the movies do not follow the sort of like narrative function. So when, like, we're getting shaky cam, snap zoom, film grammar, that is inherently a type of like photography that makes people feel small and gross and ugly because it reminds you of like war and death and destruction. So, like, you can't use that kind of film grammar and then also tell a story that's supposed to be grand and heroic and operatic. Did Peter Jackson ever use shaky cam or snap zooms in Lord of the Rings? No, because that would have undercut what he was trying to do with the film. Everything is wide, angle, beautifully lit, legible, spectacular, and it's not this kind of like ripped from the headlines.

Speaker 1 1:34:16

Because, you know, maybe people who are younger than me have some kind of affinity for the aesthetics of modern journalism, but I don't. I think it's gross and terrible, so like when a superman movie is parroting these kind of like cinematic moves. To me it's a total clash of form and content and does not work. But I appreciate where you're coming from and I appreciate what people think that the Snyder films are kind of aspiring towards and there are a few hero shots in those movies that do the Alex Ross thing, but it's few and far between and it's not enough the alex ross thing, but it's few and far between and it's not enough.

Speaker 2 1:34:56

I would say maybe the story is. I would say the story is similar in that lord of the rings, epicness, and you feel that I think more so in justice league than any of the any of the other movies but the problem with the story is that they're telling you and not showing you in the way they're telling the story yeah, I would agree with that and I would agree with your comment on the, the cinematography.

Speaker 2 1:35:12

Like it's pretty, it's just not. It's not fun to watch at all. You should. You should have a great time sitting down watching batman fight superman. You should have a good reason to fuck for batman and superman to fight. But you don't.

Speaker 3 1:35:26

Uh, but it no, it's not fun, it's oppressive, it's dark and it's like it's brutal yeah, they should have just done the animated series version, the world's finest, where joker and luther team up and that forces batman and superman to team up. They don't like each other at first. They don't need to fight necessarily. You can have them fight if you want to, but then have them team up and they fight the two greatest villains of each other. That's, that's where the money is, man.

Speaker 2 1:35:53

Yeah that's how you do it. World's finest movie in james gunn.

Speaker 1 1:35:57

You see, that would be so great I would just say like uh, with alex ross's art too. I've always found alex ross's art to be incredibly like, hopeful and optimistic. You've read, you've read marvels that you're. You know the comic, you've read marvels oh yeah you would really enjoy it if you did.

Speaker 1 1:36:16

It's a comic, that's. It's one of the few comics where alex ross is not just the cover artist, he draws every page and it's spectacular. And it's the story of the early Silver Age Marvel Universe told from the perspective of a cameraman at the Daily Bugle. And that is the film from a regular person's perspective that really shows how heroes can be larger than life and dramatic and spectacular and realistic, but not in a way that's like sad and depressing.

Speaker 2 1:36:46

Yeah, Alex Ross, he did Kingdom Come right.

Speaker 1 1:36:50

Yes, and Justice justice.

Speaker 2 1:36:52

Yeah, I was diving into some of his artwork on that and I he you mentioned, I think you mentioned like superman is kind of like this paul bunyan, john henry, kind of like mythical american hero, and I think that that art portrays that best as far as anything I've seen I want to see them do, basically for a justice league movie, for this.

Speaker 3 1:37:16

I want to see them do the legion of doom. That's what I want, that's what I've always wanted, and maybe we'll get that, maybe we won't. I need to have them all sitting at a boardroom discussing evil, plans, machinations, manto what do you think about this? Gorilla Grodd. I think that's a stupid idea. We need to invade Gorilla City instead.

Speaker 1 1:37:38

Cheetah Girl, should we give 10 million more million to Jeffrey Epstein? Yes, that's critical to the operation of the Legion of Death.

Speaker 3 1:37:46

It's like, excuse me, time for the roll call. Please all introduce yourselves. That's what I want.

Speaker 1 1:37:52

Who's the Sinestro president? Yeah, all in favor, say aye.

Speaker 3 1:37:58

So that's what I want. You need to have a great battle scene with the heroes. I mean, there's so many endless possibilities. That's why I think fundamentally doing the thing in Justice League, which is that they did the um, they were trying to do dark side, but they wanted to do part one with Steppenwolf first. And it's like you know, I remember even then I was like I'm a big DC guy, I was not.

Speaker 3 1:38:19

I was not getting jazzed up for Steppenwolf, and certainly not this fake Steppenwolf character in the movie that bore no resemblance to to the character in the comics at all. So it's like what am I getting excited about? There's just giant cgi monster that is called steppenwolf. He bears no semblance at all to the character. Well, what is there to get excited about?

Speaker 3 1:38:40

yeah, he was gross also I think that we didn't talk about this, but we talked about this on our own george was like these movies at least finally feel like the movies we were kind of promised as we moved on into the, you know, as the years went on, especially for Fantastic Four. Like the movies were promised when Disney bought Marvel and we're gonna make great, you know, comic book movies. The characters actually feel like actual variants or adaptations of the real comic book characters. They feel like we're actually getting those characters translated to screen.

Speaker 3 1:39:15

The previous crop of Marvel films just feel like, okay, hi, here's this character, scarlet, witch, vision, whatever, and it's like they're called that. They sort of look like those characters and I don't mean those two specifically. You can think of any character, shang-chi, whatever but they bear like basically no semblance to that character at all and it's like why should you get excited about? You know, batch Rock the Leaper is going to be in the new Captain America movie and it's like, well, I don't care, it's not even close to looking or acting like the character at all. So like who cares, but these do, or acting like the character?

Speaker 1 1:39:50

at all, so like who cares?

Speaker 3 1:39:50

but these do actually feel like the real character, so you can get kind of jazzed up about it.

Speaker 1 1:39:54

Yeah, yeah go ahead.

Speaker 2 1:39:56

Yeah, you know, I wonder if I because I I honestly didn't grow up too, too versed in the comics, like my entry point into marvel and dc was through the cartoon shows, action figures and the movies and stuff like that I wonder, if I grew up a comic book reader, that I would have sort of the same view you guys have with the Snyder verse, cause I I just kind of viewed it as like oh, this is a take on the character, it's a story, and I want I also wonder if a lot of people who are apologists for the Snyder films have actually read the comics, and I would, I'd be willing to bet they haven't.

Speaker 2 1:40:35

If we were big comic books like an interesting take on these characters, not, oh, this is a faithful adaptation of Superman, Batman, whatever. And as I'm getting to the comics, I'm starting to think, oh, actually, wait, this is cool, this is awesome. This is like, well, just one comic. But you know what I mean? I'm getting, I'm getting into comics and as I'm getting into comics, I'm thinking, oh no, actually I want to see this.

Speaker 1 1:40:58

I would disagree with that. Because, I, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I would disagree with that, because if that were the case that me and Ryan were just such comic book heads that we hated everything that wasn't comics, then we wouldn't like Nolan's Batman films, but those are tremendous, right.

Speaker 3 1:41:15

I would also argue Nolan gets Batman down very well.

Speaker 2 1:41:20

He understands that character.

Speaker 1 1:41:22

I don't think the Nolan films have hardly anything to do with the comics at all, but they're still great movies, right, and they get sort of like a special essence of batman, whereas in my opinion superman is a character that transcends the genre to such an extent that he's much more like a popeye or a mickey mouse. And when you're zach snyder and you're like you know what, it's not realistic to have him wear red underwear. It's like that's almost as stupid as being like well you know what? Mr peanut should not have his monocle because like that's not in accordance with like modern sensibilities, it's like stupid.

Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts

Speaker 1 1:41:52

It's like if you're trying to turn superman into this kind of like weird nichian character thing, it just does not work. It's dumb because superman is a character that lives in the pantheon of american culture and is a character for children, so like when you try to do a zach steiner version, it's dumb. Batman different, you can get away with it and the the nolan films are are terrific. And yeah, 101 johnny says no one produced steiner's films too. Yes, and I'm not gonna let him off the hook for that.

Speaker 1 1:42:19

It's his fault, nolan's fault that we got zach steiner on man of steel, so yeah, so I don't think it has it doesn't have anything to do with the comics because, like, if I, if I was just such a big comic guy, you could beat up a lot of movies. But I'm not. I'm not that big of a comic, sure, sure. Quality movie first, and man of steel is a, is a, is a is a horrible experience to watch, no matter if it was the most comic, accurate movie of all time and I'm happy to take changes that come, that are good changes from the comics, like well, they work for the movie.

Speaker 3 1:42:55

Yeah, there are things that yeah, there are things that have been, uh, changed in movies and television adaptations of characters that are actually positive, um changes that then get incorporated back into the comics, um afterwards.

Speaker 1 1:43:07

So so there's not just solitude the, the, the, uh, the donner films invented the ice castle that was not in the comics afterwards. So there's not the Fortress of Solitude. The Donner films invented the ice castle that was not in the comics correct. Yes, yes, yes, the ice castle, yeah, yeah, all the ice crystal things, and then the comics just started doing ice castle from the movie.

Speaker 2 1:43:20

Yeah, right, yeah, I need to revisit Snyder because again I feel like with the fresh.

Speaker 1 1:43:26

No, and I'm not trying to beat you up, there's plenty of Snyder guys. We have one in the chat here.

Speaker 2 1:43:30

Look, no, no no, I'll be honest with you. I've been thinking as we've gotten into this new era of DC movies. I've been thinking a lot about the Snyder films and just like, do I still really like these movies? And I have them all on Blu-ray like a fair, honest shake, like okay, how do I really feel I've actually go ahead?

Speaker 1 1:43:53

I've I've come around to Batman Superman more, but just because Ben Affleck is so good as Batman like I've, I forgive that movie a lot, but I have no interest in rewatching them, but I will say that, like to each his own.

Speaker 3 1:44:05

Everyone should be comfortable and and with what they like, and there's no right or wrong answer for this. I think you know. No one should denigrate each other's opinion, for what they like or don't like, it's a matter of your own personal preference. So you know, I don't. If you like the snyder films, more power to you. If you don't like, we do like I don't. I don't have to validate your opinion or not. I'm not speaking to you directly, vince. I'm just speaking in general to in general to the people out there. You're allowed to like what you like, and that's it.

Speaker 1 1:44:34

Feel free to donate to the channel and give Super Chats. If you're a Snyder fan, I'm more than happy to receive your money please. But 101 Johnny, this guy has been a real fan from the get-go, so I really appreciate you being in the chat pal. Appreciate it, Go ahead.

Speaker 3 1:44:52

Are we good to?

Speaker 1 1:44:53

wrap it up. Yeah, yeah, I'm good, I think so. Okay, it's been a lot of fun guys.

Speaker 2 1:44:54

Thank you yeah, thank you guys for having me on yeah, no, it's been cool.

Speaker 1 1:45:00

Thanks, vince, and you want to do a shout out for your channel?

Speaker 2 1:45:03

yeah, sure, um, yeah, you guys can follow me on youtube. Uh, my channel is called the vince lerno. Um, I have a podcast. It's called the vince leno podcast. We talk movies, pop culture, religion, sometimes politics. We get into a lot of different things. Um, I'm getting into youtube. Uh, essays I actually have one on all-star superman. I'm working on right now that the next couple of weeks we'll see.

Speaker 1 1:45:30

Um, otherwise, you can follow me on Twitter, instagram, all that stuff, fantastic. Well, thank you guys. And this show, you know, if you enjoy it, you can always find it on an audio forum on your favorite podcasting platforms Apple and Spotify, et cetera. And, uh, thank you guys for tuning in. Who came to the show? 101? Johnny and 6Ns and JHRPG. How about Dave? Next time, for some of you guys like Dave or Gary, that'd be perfect thank you guys very much.

Speaker 1 1:46:05

It's been cool having you on man. Appreciate you coming. We'll see you next time.