How to stay organized and declutter your life with ADHD

In this episode of "Thriving With ADHD," join host Nada Pupovac and returning guest, physician assistant Mackenzie Kirchner, as they delve into practical strategies for staying organized and managing clutter while living with ADHD.

Mackenzie shares expert insights on how ADHD uniquely impacts executive function and memory, leading to organizational challenges. The discussion includes actionable tips like downsizing, simplifying spaces, leveraging clear bins, and creating launch pads to foster better organization.

They also explore how therapy and medication can play a crucial role in overcoming obstacles related to forgetfulness and low motivation.

Tune in for a comprehensive guide to simplifying life and making organization a rewarding experience.
-----------------------
Hurricane Helene Relief - Donation Links:
BeLoved Asheville: This organization has been active in providing community support and disaster relief for years. Welcome - BeLoved Asheville

Haywood Christian Ministry: They are a well-established organization serving the Waynesville area, particularly with food distribution. You can safely donate through their official site: Haywood Christian Ministry (hcmnc.org)

Community Housing Coalition of Madison County: They are an established local nonprofit that provides housing support. Home - CHC Madison County NC

United Way of Asheville and Buncombe County: United Way is a reputable national organization, and their local chapter's website United Way of Asheville and Buncombe County | (unitedwayabc.org)

Community Foundation of Western North Carolina (CFWNC): This foundation has been serving Western North Carolina for years, managing various funds for disaster relief and community projects.  Community Foundation of Western North Carolina (cfwnc.org)

Thank you for listening to Thriving with ADHD. This show is produced by Animo Sano Psychiatry. For more information about our clinic, please visit animosanopsychiatry.com.

Animo Sano Psychiatry has introduced new services for enhancement of our patients' mental health - ASP Concierge and Health & Wellness Program. Please visit our website to learn more.

Animo Sano Psychiatry is constantly looking for the talent in behavioral health. If you are a psychiatrist, nurse practitioner, physician assistant, or mental health therapist, we'd love to hear from you. Visit our Careers pages to learn more about the available positions. https://animosanopsychiatry.com/careers/

Transcript

   📍     Welcome to Thriving With adhd, a podcast we'll share every day practical tips to thrive in life as an adult with adhd.  This podcast is brought to you by Animo Sano Psychiatry, a behavioral health practice with a specialist ADHD clinic based in North Carolina. And this is your host Nada Pupovac.

Welcome to Thriving with ADHD, dear ADHD community. This month, we'll be talking about how to stay organized and declutter your life when you're living with ADHD.  Physician assistant Mackenzie Kirchner is back with us to share some words of wisdom on managing life with ADHD. For those of you who are new to the show, let me tell you more about Mackenzie.

Mackenzie is a professional and empathetic physician assistant who works with animal psychiatry, and she has experience in medical management. telemedicine,  CBT and lifestyle changes. Her education includes a masters of medical science from Mercer university with a focus on physician assistant studies, including addiction management and special lectures on LGBTQ plus safe medicine. 

As a former patient advocate and MA at a nonprofit clinic, she understands The importance of serving underserved populations.

Mackenzie, welcome back to our podcast. I'm delighted to have you back. Uh, but before we jump into our conversation about ADHD and stuff, I would like to ask you, how are you? How is your family? How is your community? We're doing good.  In the aftermath of the Hurricane Helene. Yeah. Hurricane Helene.

Yes. It, you know, when we were seeing all the, the maps of the path of the hurricane on, on TV. I'm in Georgia. Um, so I'm not in North Carolina where it got hit. Um, really bad, but like, we were right in the path and North Carolina didn't seem to be, but it all very much went east. Um, so we got a lot of flooding.

Um, which is kind of typical for our property and we didn't have Internet for a little bit on and off, but we never lost power for any noticeable amount of time. And everybody was really safe. Nobody was hurt. We didn't even have any, um, you know, major losses in the community. Um, so, um. Um, it's, it's really, really sad to see what my patients are going through, especially I have some patients in the North Carolina area, but, um, luckily we, other than Internet outages, we, we, um, we made out pretty.

Okay. So we're very lucky. Thank you for asking. Yeah. No worries. Yes. You're welcome. Uh, yeah. And, uh, I know that, uh, Animal Sano is supporting community by donations, and I'll be sure to, uh, leave in the show notes links where you can donate to help community, uh, especially in North Carolina, where Our headquarters are so, uh, thanks, thanks for updating us.

And I'm glad that you, your family and your community are safe now. So that's most important thing. Okie doke. So, uh, well let's switch gears. Let's talk about ADHD and talk about, um, how it impacts  organization. I think it's great. Quite important topic. So the first question for you would be, can you explain how ADHD uniquely impacts, uh, someone's ability to stay organized and manage clutter and, , why these challenges occur? 

Yeah, so ADHD, um, this is definitely a hallmark of ADHD, even when we're kind of doing that initial visit, um, and the screening, this is something that we'll bring up specifically is organization and clutter. And I think it's really one of the most obvious visual ways that people can see ADHD, like, we walk into their space and maybe it screams ADHD, because the, the impact that ADHD has on executive function.

Directly affect some people's ability to keep a space neat and organized and clean. Um, and also working memory. We know that for many people, their ADHD kind of just wreaks havoc on short term memory and just remembering to put clothes in the hamper remembering to, um, keep your organization systems. You know, that you've got going on in your head.

All my patients always say this looks chaotic to everyone else, but I have a system. Um, but the system oftentimes doesn't work and isn't sustainable. Um, so that that is especially hard for ADHD years and they really struggle to stay organized even for my ADHD patients who enjoy organization, like, they get a dopamine release from.

Having things nice and neat, it's hard for them not to get like stuck in the weeds of, of, you know, getting too far into the details. Um, so our brains, when we're ADHD, the  average person's brain is always seeking dopamine hits, but we talked about in a previous podcast, how the ADHD brain is really easily addicted to high dopamine activities.

Um, organizing and cleaning and sorting and maintaining that is a low dopamine activity and it's very much a flow state. So it's a hard thing to always get reward from. Um, so I think this is, this is definitely a reason that ADHD or struggle with it so much.  And what would you say are some effective strategies or tools that people with ADHD can use to  maintain organization in their daily lives?

Although, It may seem, uh, difficult.  I think the number one rule, um, always is going to be downsizing. Downsizing and having less. The less stuff you have, uh, the less overwhelming that's going to feel. So I think like a, a yearly or even like a, uh, seasonal clean out of, of certain Closets, cabinets, whatever it may be, yard sales.

I think all that purging is really important for an ADHD or especially if they kind of spend and buy too much. Um, if it's a hobby you haven't touched in years, you know, you, you've got to pass it on to the next person because the more stuff you have, the harder and harder that's going to get. Um, and, and I think another really good rule for someone who's, um,  Trying out different techniques for organization and trying to figure out what's best for them.

It's really easy for somebody with ADHD to, to get a huge reward from researching something and looking something up and watching a bunch of videos on it and buying things for it. Like you buy all the Ikea organizers and you buy the labeler and you. You buy 16 different planners and then you don't touch them and then it doesn't work for you.

So I would really recommend like spending the least amount of money possible just to get some sort of organization system started. And if you find yourself, like spending a bunch of money at target on organizing. you might be getting stuck on that high dopamine activity of just spending the money. Yeah.

So that, that can be a big one. And I cannot tell you how many times my ADHD patients have told me like, yeah, I bought this like super fancy planner that costs a bunch of money and I was really excited about it and then I didn't touch it. So that, that's a, that's a pretty frequent example. Yeah. Um, but you know, it just, just trying things out and, and, um, Making sure that it becomes a flow state, like we talked about, um, having less food in the house.

That's fine too. Don't, don't pile your fridge full of food that you're not going to touch, um, even when it comes to like Tupperware and dishes, less is more, less is more, um, medications, going through that stuff and throwing things away, having a capsule wardrobe, I don't know if you've heard of that, Nada, a capsule wardrobe, but it's,  Yeah, it was kind of a fad a few years ago to have a capsule.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw, I think I saw it on the internet. So yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's not a bad idea for an ADHDer. Even if you have a new capsule wardrobe for every season, you know, put them away and switch them out so your brain isn't overloaded by just the sheer amount of stuff.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, there's, there's also. Um, you know, if you're going to use bins, make them clear. I don't know if you've heard of that. Um, that's kind of a big, a big fad, um, on the Internet now too, because you can see what's in that bin without having to dump it all out. So that's a good tip.  Labeling stuff, making sure things don't have lids when you have is 2, because once you put put the lid on it, number 1, that's an extra step for the brand is to  shut lids constantly.

Um, but if it's out of out of sight, it's out of mind. So, I think, as a general rule, anyone who's kind of a, an organization expert is gonna recommend open bands that are. Easy to see through and and see into, um, and and having, um, lots of baskets throughout the house is a good idea. Um,  Uh, if you've got stuff that belongs upstairs that needs to go upstairs every day and stuff that belongs downstairs, having  a basket, the end of the stairs is always a great idea for my patients who just can't take 1600 trips up and down the stairs every I don't have stairs.

Thank God. But, um, you know, having bins that just make it easier to move stuff throughout your house. And one of my biggest tips for an ADHD, um, patient to just start with, cause it doesn't cost a lot of money and it can be pretty, um, uh, pretty life, uh, life hacking. It's a, it's definitely a life hack is a launch pad.

You can Google launch pad ideas on just about Google, Pinterest, anywhere, and it's just the idea that. You've got some kind of station right by the front door that houses everything you might lose. So socks, shoes, coats, your keys need to live there on a hook where you can see them, um, a phone charger where your phone can kind of dock and live so that you're not constantly trying to walk out of the door.

I forgot my socks. I forgot my shoes. I forgot my keys. Having it all really live right there and have a designated space with a clock is really important to have some kind of time. Um, you know, time, uh, piece near that launch pad. Um, I've heard a lot of ADHD years find this a lot easier to manage time and organization if that exists in the house.

Um, so those are just a few of my favorites as far as getting started and, and trying new things, but also kind of keeping boundaries with not trying 10 things, expensive things and, and not really sticking with them. I think that's, that's a goal too, right?  Excellent. So what I, what I heard is downsize,  simplify, minimize. 

Yeah. Like rule, uh, golden rules. What I'm also, so I think what you're talking about also applies to people just living on autopilots. I, and myself included. So sometimes I keep wondering. Have I locked my door?  Uh, have I, you know, uh, or maybe I forgot to do that. So what I heard helps as well is if you say, sometimes say out loud what you're doing so that you can remember.

Uh, so it's, it's a cool hack. I I'm doing it for real. So yeah. Yeah. Saying it out loud. That's good. Yeah. So yeah, but yeah, I think these are great.    People are trying loads of stuff and I would like to talk about, uh, finding the right fit. So, uh, the, what is the organization style and , techniques that would work best for individual person.

Maybe people should start with, uh, not being discouraged if they don't succeed  at the start. But maybe let's talk more and your recommendations about it. Yeah. Yeah, because there's all sorts of different, you know, systems out there. I mean, like, for example, one that's really famous is like the Marie Kondo, does it spark joy, you know, as you kind of get rid of the, I don't know if you ever, Saw her show, um, a few years ago, she talked about, does it spark joy?

You know, you hold something and if you don't feel that doesn't spark joy, you get rid of it. Um, yeah, so that became a big one, but that doesn't work for everybody. Um, there's the home edit. That was another big organizational.  Um, uh, team that for a second they had their own show and they got really Instagram famous.

They have a lot of really great organizational tips for ADHD years, but they don't focus on getting rid of stuff. So you've got to find what works for you. And again, I don't want my ADHDers to spend a ton of money on something they think will work for them and it might not. But as you try things,  I really would not want my ADHD folks to worry too much about aesthetic.

Um, that's really hard to, to get away from for some of my patients who are seeing like perfect homes on Instagram all the time, you know, staged homes and. Uh, you know, it's just unrealistic and, and not only can that just kind of set you back, but I've had a lot of patients feel depressed, like why, why do I care my house, all these houses, you know, and none of that's real, it's all social media, but I want to get hung up right away when you're trying out new organizational steps.

On does this look good does this fit the aesthetic try something easy and ugly 1st and then if you realize, yes, the system works for me, you can upgrade as you go, you know, and that way, you're not wasting money or doing something just for the looks of it. Um, but, you know, luckily, when it comes to organization again, if you're getting rid of things.

I really think that minimizing the amount of stuff in your house is automatically going to make it look better anyway, you know, when, when there aren't just piles of things everywhere.  And that's something I have to do a lot because I have a super small house so we just naturally have to, and it does make it less crowded in your head when you're not living, you know, amongst a bunch of piles.

But that's another system that a lot of ADHD people do is many of my patients live with piles. There's a pile on the, on this table pile in my bathroom pile that I carry around with me, um, you know, and, and that may be a good system for some people. And then some of my other patients are stressed out by the fact that they live in piles because they can't keep their piles organized.

So that's, that's a good example of why, you know, 1 of 1 of these tips or tricks and organization may not work for another. Um, you know, the basket thing may not work for somebody else because they end up just putting everything in the basket and then they lose it in the basket. Right? So  you try different things.

Don't worry about the way it looks and, and, you know, go to the thrift store first and buy bins that are ugly and, and just see what works for you as you go.  Yeah, I think that's, that's excellent advice. So, and we're all different and, uh, yeah, I found myself in your, your tips. And so I suppose you can. Yeah.

Do both and mix and, and try for yourself and see what works best. So yeah, that, that's, that's wonderful. Um, what are some  common obstacles that you  see with people, uh, that play with ADHD, uh, trying to declutter, organize, um, and   how they can, uh, overcome these challenges. 

I think boredom and forgetfulness are two of the biggest ones. I think the boredom is going to keep that ADHD brain from feeling reward with organization for some of my patients who just, they just don't get anything from it. You know, it's, it's a monumental task for them to just organize things and put things away and.

Um, they just can't get started. I think you're going to have to turn that low dopamine activity into something rewarding your, you could listen to music while you do it, you know, have a, a show going on in the background. It shouldn't feel like punishment. Right? Um, you know, you should be able to push through that boredom just by kind of giving yourself small rewards.

Um, uh, also. Um, with the forgetfulness, like you mentioned, you know, talking to yourself out loud about things, you know, you might forget, um, that's a good way to kind of create a more solid memory. I think, but I think when patients are really struggling with forgetfulness, when it comes to maintaining organization, like, putting things where they belong, you might have to start with some kind of a chore chart or some kind of written reminder, sticky notes for a while until it becomes, um.

Good. You know, uh, a more concrete, um, behavior rather than having to remember it. Um, there's all sorts of really nice chore charts on Amazon. You can just type in chore chart and. They're like 10 bucks or less. They, you know, they're magnets that go on the fridge so you can see them, put them on your mirror, somewhere that you're going to see it every day that, that will help you overcome the forgetfulness  of it.

But you've got to, if it's not rewarding for these patients to organize and for some people it's not, you've got to find a way to make it. A little bit fun. You could also body double. I know a lot of my patients do really well with body doubling on YouTube or something watching videos of people organizing as you organize.

That's a real strategy for some. Yeah,  I'm a great idea. Yeah. So, uh,  Someone might find it useful. So that's good. Yeah.  And what's the role of therapy and medication in achieving better organization for people with ADHD.  

yeah, yeah, I think therapy is really going to help people stay accountable. You know, you could tell yourself 100 times that you're going to clean out that closet or find a system or not live like this anymore. But adding somebody in who's a therapist, or even like an ADHD health coach, I know a lot of my ADHD years have been doing that, um, which is similar.

It's just not as in depth with like CBT and, and, and different therapy, um, you know, um, uh, techniques, um, but it's just somebody to keep you accountable. You said you were going to do this. Did you do it? Um, so that's really, I think that's one of the biggest things that can help overcome like that demand avoidance.

That's, that's one thing my patients have been talking to me a lot about lately too. Demand avoidance is this thing where if you feel like you have to do it, you don't want to. Or if somebody tells you to do something, suddenly it's like you, it's hard to do. You don't want to do the dishes because It's boring and someone told you to do it and it feels like a chore and now it's almost like the spiteful thing inside you that doesn't want to get it done.

Um, or even cleaning trauma. Some of my patients grew up in homes with hoarders. Some of my patients grew up in poverty and they don't know how to organize. Some of my patients grew up in homes where they were yelled at often to clean and to organize and now they have a really negative, um, uh, you know, just kind of a negative undertone when it comes to cleaning and it kind of triggers things that they wouldn't expect.

So those are issues therapy is definitely gonna help uncover some of that and medication. I think it's just, you know, it's not gonna magically make you. A great organizer and suddenly the next to your home is completely spotless that I would be concerned if that were the case. I think it's really just going to help.

Feeling unstuck, if you feel stuck looking at the things in your house that you need to get organized, the medication is just going to make it that much easier to push through. Um, it's not going to be a miracle, but I think together, you know, with the therapy and behavior changes and lifestyle changes, the medication can can can really help you push through things you weren't able to before.

Excellent. Yeah. That, that makes complete sense and, um, it's in alignment with a comprehensive, , strategy for mental health in general, because one thing I suppose can't, , do its own magic. It's the, , combined effort of all of these, uh, elements, medication, therapy, um, working on your habits.  Um, so yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that makes sense.

, and thanks for sharing that. So to wrap up,  um, as usual, if, uh, there is, uh, one thing you would like, , our listeners to remember from, , this, , episode, what that would be.  Yeah, I think we've, we've talked about this takeaway before is you're not lazy, you know, laziness is a myth when it comes to ADHD.

It's not laziness keeping you, you know, struggles with organization or one of the top reasons a lot of ADHD patients feel less than and they compare themselves to others. And again, I think that's, that's because it's so visual, you know, you have people come to your house and say it's a mess, your car's a mess, your backpacks a mess when you're a kid, and you get a lot of judgment because it's so visual.

It really does feel like a visual representation of the disease. Many of my patients will like, on camera, show me their house or show me their closet and say, this is what my brain feels like on the inside, um, which is, which is, you know, sad for them, but just like we can clean that up, we can, we can improve the brain and improve the way it feels to live with ADHD.

So, you know, if we can find a way to organize spaces, I think it helps us find ways to organize your brain. Um, and I really think that this in and of itself can be part of the treatment plan for a lot of ADHD years. Oh, that's, that's fantastic, actually. That's brilliant idea. So yeah. Yeah. And thanks for sharing that.

And thanks for, uh, concluding this conversation on a very positive note. So, uh,  it was great having you. My pleasure as always, and, uh, hope to see you back, uh, in some other episode.  Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 



  📍 Thank you for listening to Thriving with adhd. This show is produced by Animo Sano Psychiatry. Please follow, rate or share our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or any other streaming app of your choice. Music is by Daddy's Music music from Pixabay. For more information about Animo Sano Psychiatry, please visit animosanopsychiatry.com