Living Outloud: Feedback from Jesus

We slow down in Revelation 2 and 3 and let the letters from Jesus read us instead of us just reading them. We ask what repentance looks like when the problem isn’t loud rebellion but quiet comfort, subtle compromise, and spiritual autopilot. 
• why the seven letters are for us today, not just ancient churches 
• the common structure of each letter: who Jesus is, what he praises, what he confronts, what he promises 
• Ephesus and leaving your first love, the “sweatpants Christian” warning, doing the deeds you did at first 
• Smyrna and the uncomfortable question of whether we fear suffering 
• Pergamum and the danger of “almost true” teaching, testing every message against Scripture 
• Thyatira and why tolerance is not the same as love, refusing to normalize sin 
• Laodicea, lukewarm usefulness, and the threat of self-sufficiency 
• Jesus knocking at the door, responding with openness, conviction, and repentance 

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Transcript

Why These Letters Matter

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Out Loud Bible Project Podcast, and I am Mike, and this is Living Out Loud, the weekly episode where we take a look at something we read earlier in the week and dig a little bit deeper to figure out what are we gonna do about it? How are we gonna live out the Bible that we read earlier this week? And Kelsey's here as a part of this conversation, and uh we're gonna revisit the first couple chapters of Revelation. Uh Revelation, specifically chapter two and three, is a unique section of all of Scripture, really, where we have letters from Jesus. Like, uh you know, you read the New Testament, you see letters from Paul, that's most of the New Testament, letters from John, letters from Peter, and uh here it's we have letters from Jesus. Now, I believe these are real letters that Jesus was uh dictating to John to set write and send to the leaders of seven different actual churches with real people back in John's time. And just like we can read Paul's letters and say, okay, I know he was writing to uh another church at another time in its own context and situation, we can still obviously benefit from that. That's why we read Ephesians and Philippians and whatnot. Um we can in the same way take these letters that Jesus wrote to churches and say, Okay, well, how do I line up with this? How do I what what can I get from this that instead of just saying, oh, well, you know, that's that's not to me, it's not to you, but it's for us, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

So letting the Holy Spirit prick us and make us a little uncomfortable when when something needs improvement or change or consideration when we aren't, we can read these and ask, is that a letter Jesus might write to me? Yeah. Is that a problem that I need to address in my life?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. So we're gonna go through these seven letters. Some we'll spend more time in than others. Uh, I'm not gonna read them all in their entirety. If you want to go listen to this again a couple episodes ago, check out uh the the first episode of Revelation one through three and and we'll cover those. Um, but for for now, we're

The Pattern In Every Letter

SPEAKER_01 2:05

just gonna hit the high points because we know that each of these letters generally follows the same structure. Uh Jesus introduces himself in some kind of majestic, awe-inspiring way, like remember who's writing to you. This is not Paul, this is not Peter, this is Jesus, the resurrected king that we're talking, that we're hearing from, right? And then he points out in in some cases, uh, some of the things they're doing right. It's like, I see that, I acknowledge what you're doing well. Some churches don't get that part, and that's that's not a good sign. And then he will often uh express some areas that need improvement. Now again, some churches he actually only has encouragement for them. That's great. Most of them, however, have some things to work on um and and what to do about it. And then all of the letters will end with a promise of like a reward if you're victorious, if you endure, uh if you conquer if you're a conqueror in this area, then you get some reward. And honestly, he has a kind of a symbolic and eternal perspective on what those rewards are that we don't fully understand. Uh, and we will not until we see them or receive them ourselves. Um, and so, but today in our conversation, let's focus on specifically what are the notes that he has for areas of improvement and just let the Bible be a mirror and let it prick us a little bit. Um, can let ourselves be willing to be the bad guy here and take notes for our own spiritual health and growth. Not that Jesus is beating you up, obviously. He sees the good things and he has and there's hope and there's uh a way out. Um, but let's just let ourselves be honest with it, shall we?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Let's jump

Ephesus And Losing First Love

SPEAKER_00 3:40

in. So church number one, Ephesus.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Ephesus in Revelation chapter two, Ephesus has this problem that Jesus points out. I have this against you. Verse 4, you've departed from your first love. That's the problem. And this is it's kind of a sad one. This is this is a problem that is not a problem that new believers will have. This is you've been around a while. And we and Ephesus was one of the first Christian churches established, one of the first Gentile churches. Um, and so yeah, it has been around at this point for um a few decades, probably. Paul planted it, and now we're uh a few decades out. So we've got some Christians here who have been Christians for 20, 30, maybe 40 years. I'm not exactly sure on the timeline. Um, and so in it's at that range where you've been a Christian for not weeks, months, or even a couple of years, but we're talking decades.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

It well, when it even the way it says you've left your first love, you've forgotten your first love, it immediately brings up images of for me, right, of a romantic relationship, um, a marriage, perhaps, where you and I will we're gonna be married here for 17 years. This summer we'll be celebrating 17 years. And and it's kind of around this time, and and Lord willing, we have a lot of years left to go, but but it's the longer you're married, the more comfortable you get with one another, the more likely you are to take one another for granted. The the less often we're discovering new things about each other, and the less often we're spending time trying to win the other one over and and trying to discover each other and fall in love.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

It's not about faithfulness, it's not unfaithfulness. We're faithful, it's not even a lack of love. It's it's just, I don't know, I'll burp after dinner and I feel comfortable doing that because I you're not going anywhere. You know, you're not offended, although I should, you know, probably, you know, not do that regularly. I don't, you know, don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

When we started dating, I wanted to dress cute every single time you were gonna see me. I wanted you, I wanted to look my absolute best. Now, 17 years in, you're gonna see me in my sweatpants and leggings more often than you're gonna see me dolled up, right? Like, so this this is. It's not because I don't love you. And it's not because and it's probably because I know you love me so much, I know I don't have to try. And there's something beautiful in that too.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

But Jesus has this against the church in Ephesus that they have become so full of knowledge, so full of wisdom, as expressed earlier in the letter, so full of maturity.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

They know the Bible, they know the truth, they know how to distinguish.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

But they're not really in love with Jesus the way that they were when they first came to know him and when they were first planted. And that that is something I I know that this letter has spoken to me in times past in my walk with Christ, and and recognizing, oh wow, I'm I'm really just kind of um on autopilot here in my relationship with this is for the sweatpants Christians.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yes. Okay, and I'm not talking about literally how you dress, but this is for those like I'm so comfortable with Jesus that I just I just can go around in my sweatpants and I know he loves me. And it's true, God like his grace and his love is unconditional, and at this point you know it. You're not trying to earn it because you know you can't. Amen. But when you stop when you stop trying to earn it, you can tend to stop trying to express it. And I think that's the problem. And so how would we fix this? Well, uh, just like I would encourage a couple who's been married a long time and have kind of lost their first love, and what Jesus says in verse five, uh, do the deeds you did at first. Now, again, you're spiritually mature at this point. You know that you don't need to do good deeds to earn his love. But Jesus' prescription for you is to do good deeds that you did at first, those sort of things that you were just trying out and and just kind of came out of you naturally because Jesus was new and you're so grateful for all Jesus has done, and you see the difference he makes in your life. Do the sort of things that you did then.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

And Jesus calls this repentance.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Right? Like there is, we do have to recognize that his holiness, his awesomeness, his perfection should be calling us to continually want to get to know him and discover more about him, discover who he is. And and so for the sweatpant wearing Christian, maybe it's time to care a little bit more and put a little bit more effort in. Not because it's going to earn you his love. You know that that's not how this works, but because he's deserving of the effort.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Actually, literally, I've been uh trying to actually dress better to go to church now. Again, not to be legalistic about it and not to take sweatpants, Christian, literally. But um, but because you do get comfortable and it's like, it does it does it matter what you wear to church? No, it really doesn't. And I don't want any pride for like wearing nice clothes. That doesn't get me any bonus points. But it's like, you know what? When I was younger, I used to dress up because I was like, I I want to look nice on a Sunday when I go to worship. And I want, I want to this day to feel different than other days. So I want to wear the clothes that I don't wear other days. And, you know, over time I kind of lost that. Now I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna do more of that. That's just one example. That doesn't have to be what it is. Um, if that seems to help, then great, do it.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

If not, then don't for me, it's it's kind of a expectation that I'm when I read my Bible, I'm gonna be surprised. Um, that's been that's been resonating with me uh recently, that my complacency will often come in thinking I just know what the Bible has to say, thinking I've heard these stories a hundred times and there's not really anything new for me. And so going back to my first love for me is the idea of approaching scripture, expecting to be surprised, expecting to be convicted, expecting to learn something new about God that I didn't see before. And when I approach scripture, wanting my eyes to be seeing it like it's new, wanting to come to it as if I was a fresh believer in like what would I discover if I've never read this before? That fills me with excitement and joy and a sense of discovery. And I do discover more because scripture is so deep. We're never gonna get to the bottom of it. And and it reminds me of my limitations. So there's an idea for you if you're struggling with this.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Don't lose the first love that you had. Let's do the things that you did at first. The second church uh letter here is to Smyrna, and this is not

Smyrna And Fear Of Suffering

SPEAKER_01 10:10

one where Jesus really gives uh notes of things to improve. He just recognizes you're poor and you're small and you are being beat up by the Satan followers in the city that you're living in. Uh, and his encouragement to them is to not be afraid of the things you're about to suffer. I don't want to spend a whole lot of time in this, given just kind of what I want to focus on here in this conversation. Um, but this one did jump out at me just as a question and letting it reflect back. Am I afraid to suffer? Am I really only doing this as long as it's comfortable? It's a little bit tough to know until you're suffering. And I I mean, I've I say I've suffered, but not like not like Smyrna was here. They're gonna be tested and thrown into prison and experience suffering for ten days. That's gotta be pretty intense ten days. Um and remain faithful even to the point of death. Like I haven't had to be that faithful. So I'm just letting this letter uh just kind of rock me a little uncomfortably of am I uh w what if I got that letter? Am I bailing out before I have a chance to see it through or or what? Um but if that is the case, there's good encouragement there for Smyrna. Do you have anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

No, sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Pergamum is the third letter here, and this is a a big, strong, powerful city. Unfortunately, it's also a hub of multiple temples of various gods, ultimately, which are demons, and and Jesus says Satan lives here. Like this is it's not good. Yeah,

Pergamum And Almost True Teaching

SPEAKER_01 11:40

it's the city where Satan lives. Uh so that this is what the church is up against. And and they've been faithful. However, there's a few things he has against them. You've uh you've uh uh some people there who follow the teaching of Balaam and uh and leading people astray. And in similarly, there are some people among you in the church who follow the teachings of the Nicolaitans, uh, and he tells them to repent. And the teaching of the Nicolaitans, the Nicolaitans come up in a couple different places in the New Testament. Paul talks about this. There's even some theory that it comes from the teaching of Nicholas, who was actually one of the first deacons established in the book of Acts, one of those is Nicholas. Uh there's some theories that maybe kind of went off and and got some followers. Kind of a uh he was obviously a a well-respected guy because he was voted uh as a as a deacon. And you know, he there seems to be some compromise with uh the oh, the gospel's a little bit difficult and offensive for some people. Imagine how many more people we could serve and help if we just kind of de-emphasized some of the prickly things about the gospel and just and preached some just the more feel-good things about the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Mike, I literally saw a video on on uh social media this week of some woman pastor in her robes, uh, probably Episcopalian, who was talking about how the gospel of Jesus is too offensive, and so we need to remove parts of the Bible because it doesn't apply to us anymore in this day. Literally happening right now in our country. Yeah. Um so we we really do, as believers, as followers of Christ, need to take this very seriously. That if there are teachers and people who even wearing robes with some sort of title, telling you that there are portions of the Bible that they don't fit today. And so you don't need to listen to them, and we need to actually remove them from our belief system and only go with the parts that make us comfortable. Run as fast as you can because that person is leading people to hell and they're going to be judged very strictly. All of scripture is true for all of time, regardless of how uncomfortable it is. And we really, really need to like today, I feel like more than ever in our lifetime, we need to be uh committed to the entirety of scripture, committed to living in line with the entirety of scripture, and committed to to God setting the standard instead of culture setting the standard. So just just like run as fast as you can from those people and run as as hard as you can towards the truth of this of the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Pergamom's problem is that they had people who were adjacent to the gospel, Christian-ish, uh-huh, very closely related to the truth, but not.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Well, would probably call themselves Christians. They probably follow call themselves part of the church. They they probably call themselves part of they're they're not going out there being like, we follow Satan and you should too. No, they're using the Bible, they're using truths of what Jesus said, they're using their connections to the apostles to lead people astray from the true gospel. And that's what we see today in anti-biblical churches, in anti-biblical religious circles, that they want, they want all of the good feeling love of Jesus and none of the conviction. And that is satanic.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

It's it's interesting you say it's satanic because if you look at Pergamum and say, well, what's satanic? Well, yeah, these pagan temples dedicated to gods and demons and all of these pagan practices. Well, this church isn't doing any of that, so this church must be good. And Jesus is like, Satan's gotten in another way, and it's very subtle, and it's the this the teachings of the Nicolaitans are destroying you from the inside out because you're tolerating these, and so and you've lost a little bit of discernment between what is true and what's almost true.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

And Jesus says that's Mike, say that again.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Oh no, what did I just say?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Discernment between what is true and what is almost true.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

And we need to pray for that because we we o we read the Bible and pray to be on guard, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

You have the You have to know what the Bible says in order to know what the Bible says. So we have to be people who are in Scripture and reading Scripture so that we know when something false shows up. And we have to be continually praying and asking the Holy Spirit to keep us wise and to keep us to enhance our discernment so that we can recognize when something is false and dangerous. And not just take someone's word for it when they pronounce some new theology or some new belief because they say they're a Christian or they say they're a pastor or they have some sort of following, not just taking their word for it, but holding it up to scripture and saying that is not what the Bible teaches. That is not what God says.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

A big red flag, like that false teacher that you were referring to earlier. A big red flag is when we have to when we have to, when we're encouraged to tweak what the Bible says based on how people will receive it. That's very backwards. Yep. People need to tweak how they receive things based on what the Bible says. That's

Thyatira And The Trap Of Tolerance

SPEAKER_01 16:55

that's what we're doing here in this episode. So let's keep going. Uh, because we have a similar problem uh uh in the Church of Thyatira. Thyatira's issue here is that they've been tolerating that woman, Jezebel. We don't know if that's her name. Uh we don't it's probably not, uh, but it's it's that that Jezebel attitude and demeanor from the Old Testament. Uh calling herself a prophetess, she's teaching, she's deceiving people into committing sexual immorality and eating food sacrificed to idols. Jesus says, I've even given her time to repent, but she's not willing.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah. And what sticks out to me in in this letter, um, and as you said, it's there's similarities to Pergamum, but the just this word tolerate. Um, I have this against you that you tolerate this woman, Jezebel. And oh my goodness, Michael, like our society, our culture today wants to equate tolerance with compassion.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

This church would get an award from her culture today. Oh, yeah. Like this is oh, this is a good church.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

They're they're a rainbow flag hanging out front. This church would have acceptance and and receptance of everybody in every walk of life, and they would never talk about sin. That's what this church would be, right? This church would talk all about the love of Jesus and never about the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They would never tell you that you're sinning because that's offensive and that's hard to hear. That's what this church would be doing. And um, and and we really, as Christ followers, as Bible-believing Christ followers, we have to be on the on the offense when it comes to tolerance. Like tolerance is celebrated by our culture. Tolerance is not celebrated by Jesus. That's what I see when I look at this verse. And uh, it is verse 20 in chapter two. Tolerance of the woman Jezebel is not celebrated by Jesus. It is, it is opposed by Jesus. It is something that the church is called to repent from, and if they don't, the consequences will be dire. And so we really have to be careful when we're hearing culture talk about tolerance, when we're hearing other churches talk about being tolerant. Tolerance is not godliness. It isn't. Holiness is godliness, and holiness means being set apart, and a tolerance just means including everybody and letting everybody do their own thing. But when everybody's doing their own thing, it's likely that they're just following Satan and they're following their own flesh and they're following their own desires and they're not submitting to the word and the of God and the authority of Christ. So just being really careful.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I can see why I'd be tolerant though, because I'm a Christian and I don't want, I want to give the world a good impression of Christians. And if I'm, you know, causing a stink about and I'm, you know, making this person feel bad for their beliefs and I'm telling them what the Bible says and they don't want to hear it, but I'm pushing, like, then then I'm made out to be a bad guy. And then people think You're right.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

It's much better to let them be thrown on a bed of sickness and to kill her children with a plague. It's much better. It's much more loving to just let that happen. Oh, wait, no, it's not. And that's what this scripture says they're doing. Like, if she doesn't repent, that's what's gonna happen to her. And if if the people that we want to be tolerant and loving towards, by not calling out their sin, continue in their sin, they're going towards destruction. It is not loving to tolerate something. It is not loving to tolerate sin. It is not loving to tolerate people who are acting against God. It is loving to tell them that they're sinning and that they need to repent in turn toward Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

We have to pick our uncomfortable. We have to pick our pain because it's either going to be uncomfortable and painful to stand up for truth against someone who is very loud about what they believe and why you're being hateful for opposing them. It's, I would say, more uncomfortable and painful to just tolerate them, let them say those things, and then have to deal with Jesus at some point, saying, So hold on, you've let them continue, and they have since been devouring other people along the way and leading my people astray because of this. That would be painful and uncomfortable. And we put that off as m as long as possible when we tolerate and avoid the painful, uncomfortable situations and conversations now.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah. So that was the whole all all the churches in chapter two. There's a several more churches in chapter three, but for the sake of time, Mike, I know that you really wanted to talk about Laodicea, which is the last church at the end of chapter three.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Um Yeah, let's let's just jump there.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And

Laodicea And Being Useful Again

SPEAKER_01 21:30

and this is the church that uh it's kind of uh got a famous verse of like, because you you're I wish you were either hot or cold, but because you're lukewarm, I'm gonna vomit you out of my mouth. And it's a very vivid uh mental picture, and that's you know, that that verse gets thrown a around a lot. Uh and it's just unfortunately, I think there's so many misconceptions about this one and and teachings related to this verse that I just think are a little bit off, that I think it's worth spending some time on, and when the reality of it is actually much more beautiful than any takeaway based on a A false premise here. Um, because I remember in like in in youth group, right? Uh a youth leader would would teach, it's like, hey, you know, kids, like Jesus here, he's saying you gotta be either hot or cold. I wish you were either hot or cold, but don't be a lukewarm Christian. And that was always like the worst thing to be a lukewarm Christian. Um, and is and and they would take that, well, you gotta pick either be cold or hot, either be on fire for the Lord, be hot and and be on fire, or just you know, go be an atheist and be at least be certain, though. Like, be all in one way or the other. Don't ride the fence here. Like, be either follow Jesus with on fire on your all your heart, or just you know, say no and reject him. And but that that's not what Jesus is saying. Like, Jesus certainly wouldn't encourage you to be cold.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Um, but what if cold meant from him to be away from him?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

No, like lukewarm uh is better than cold in that sense, but it it's helpful to understand that this city, Laodicea, they were actually in between two different water sources cold water springs from nearby mountains and hot springs uh that were uh uh again uh several miles away. Um they tried to pipe these waters in from their respective sources, but by the time they got to Laodicea, it was often kind of lukewarm anyway, and so Jesus is using this mental picture here uh to be a very real and relatable thing for them. But what is cold, what is hot water except it's soothing and it's healing, natural hot mineral springs soothing and healing? What is cold water except it's refreshing and life-giving? Cold and hot water are both useful and and that's the important thing is is are you useful? Because if you're lukewarm, you're not refreshing, you're not you're not cold enough to be refreshing, you're not hot enough to be healing and and soothing. What are you?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

You're just warm enough for bacteria to grow. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

And so Jesus is like, I'm not, I'm not entertaining that. And his complaints to them are that you've set you say that you're rich, you've acquired great wealth, and you don't need anything. But actually, you are poor, you're blind, you're naked. Okay. So, and this comes when we get too comfortable, that we actually don't become useful to the kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

It kind of bookends, doesn't it? The the letter to Ephesus. Um, it it mirrors just in a different way where Ephesus lost their first love. Laodicea got too cocky, thinking that they didn't need anyone but themselves. And I think we can relate to that in at least American culture, where we are we celebrate and we worship honestly, the sense of independence and individuality, but we lose the sense of need.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Laodicea was so self-sufficient and independent. In fact, so much so that they had an earthquake and the Roman Empire, who was in control of them, was willing to send over funds. And they're like, no, no, actually, we're good. We've got enough money we can, we can rebuild. And so they were so self-sufficient that they prided themselves on it. And that's very common in America. That it's one of our virtues of independence and self-sufficiency. And that is real dangerous because it flies in the face of Jesus trying to convince us that we are very dependent on him. Yeah. We are sufficient and he is sufficient for us.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Your great his grace is sufficient for us. And if we lose sight of that, we tend to lose the usefulness of being refreshing to the world or healing to the world, and we end up just kind of sitting around collecting bacteria. So use this letter as a mirror and do what Jesus says. And he invites everyone at the end of this, hey, you know what? Just just come, knock, and I'll answer. If if and that's true for any anything that you relate to in these letters, if you're like, oh man, Jesus, I need help. Well, Jesus says, Hey, I'm standing at the door. I'm knocking. I'm actually coming to you. I'm coming to you. If you open up and let me in and do what I do, then we're gonna we're gonna have a fine time.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

If you repent, I have promises for you. So I uh it is on us to be repentant. That is our response and our responsibility to to these letters and to the words of Jesus is to be repentant when we be open to the Holy Spirit convicting us, and then be repentant when we are convicted.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

So this section of Revelation chapters two and three, it's worth another listen if you want to go back to that and listen to that episode where we read them, or open

Open The Door And Respond

SPEAKER_01 26:35

up your own study and check them out. Just uh and pray something like, Hey, Jesus, would you please show me what you see in my life? Please encourage me in the areas that you see that are good and want to see more of, and convict me in the areas that don't line up with you. And then that's basically answering his knock on the door, and he'll come in and share a meal with you, and he'll do all the great work that he does. So just let the Bible do what it does, and what a great start to the book of Revelation. Thanks for joining us in this conversation, and we're excited to continue through this really fascinating book of Revelation, and uh, we'll see you next time.