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Nick Lincoln:yes indeed, dear TRAPPIST, welcome back to the latest part of trap the real advisor podcast T AR AP. My name is Nick Lincoln and joining me as ever in the digital studio of doom are the three other horsemen of the apocalypse the trap pack, Allen Smith, Andy Hart and Carl widger. Now gentleman, this is going out? Well, Chris, just before Christmas Eve is right in that Christmas, that Christmas period now where families are already thinking about killing each other. And all the joy that comes with that. And we've got a Christmas special for our dear listeners of our dear Trappists. Today we were very conscious that over that we've had great fun with with with. We're trapped. We're now to episode nine. The response has been brilliant. And we've had loads of people firing in questions and given that this show is always a show for you by you and shaped by you as much as it's shaped by us. I think it's time that we get those questions the time they deserve. So without any further ado, with our Christmas Special, we are going to launch straight in to answering some questions from our beloved trap audience and the first one is from Matt Aitchison, who's on Twitter as at Matt underscore ages and and one of the one of the good guys I know, Matt, I think some of us in the group would know Matt, if not all of us. Matt says I'd be interested in the TRAPPIST view on an excellent annual service schedule that delivers value to clients linked to that the ideal team structure, either staff or outsource source to deliver that service. Well, we'll I'll have a first stab at this. If I read your question, right, Matt, I think you're asking, How do you do the annual service? Is it plan is that is there? Is there a process behind it. And if you are asking that I can tell you that mine, my clients all get the same annual planning service, it's I'm very, very much about a process driven. Business, every client gets the same touch points throughout the year in terms of the annual planning process, they get an email from me with my calendar, so they can book the time in on Calendly. And then they get another email a week later saying I need the homework from you know, you booked this meeting in I then chase them a week later. And the homework questions are the same for all of my clients because we know stuff about their portfolio values and pensions and ISIS and that kind of stuff. But there's loads of stuff going on the background that we don't know, right? salaries, bonuses, mortgages, savings. And I also send out a soft questionnaire which just asked Okay, over the last year, what have you experienced has been what's been really good this year that you weren't expecting what's been not so good. Are there any concerns you have with the relationship you have with any of your, your professional connections such as myself and your accounts and that kind of stuff. And I get that back in and if the clients don't get it back, and we don't have the annual planning meeting, they generally get it back. And I try and make it as easy as possible. When that comes back in, we prepare the lifetime cash flow forecast or update it. And then we do the meeting, the meeting is done. I send the clients a link to a dropbox folder. In the Dropbox folder is everything they've sent to me prior to the meeting all their homework, all the emails around the meeting, and a copy of the audio and the visual from the meeting and transcript. Ultra transparent right i i want that in 20 years time I got with each of my clients a 20 year history of every interaction I've had with them through the annual planning meetings all recorded. No, nothing evasive. It's just bang, there it is transparency. And that's my process. And that's that's what I stick to unless you guys have got something to add to that he did ask them to that the ideal team structure. I can't really talk about that. Maybe you want if somebody wants to talk about the ideal team structure. I don't Yeah,
Alan Smith:I I can jump in just quickly on that. And what's interesting, Nick is yours is a very simple process, you know, simple wins. And I think if more and more I hear other people talking about it, and some people like to complicate things and make it more just have a lot more moving parts, usually just very simple, repeatable, scalable, you could do that for X number of clients. So I think you answered that perfectly well. I think I learned something from it. Okay, that's another girl on the team. We've tried different methods, not sure what Matt's setup is. We've adopted I think Carl does the same what we call a pod pod model. We have a lead financial planner, we have what we call an associate, which in other name is a paraplanner. And we have an administrator and that is a unit that as a team that does everything right that looks after a book of business and a number of clients. That model is infinitely scalable. You can event any number of pods She wants in your business. But as a sort of self contained in our business, they kind of run their own p&l, they know the profitability. They know what they're supposed to do know how to grow their own pod, they write their own bit business plan. And then we've got Central Services, which is operational stuff about running the office, keeping the whole thing kick ticking over and marketing. And then me doing whatever I do. So that's our model, basically, a unit of three to deliver the work both the, you know, the preparation, the planning meetings and onboarding new clients.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, that's great. Good, okay, quick, then far away, go,
Andy Hart:I was just gonna say I run the same pod, but outsource. So it's me outsource paraplanner outsource admin, and it works very well. But the same pod structure, as Alan mentioned, I say to my staff, I'm the main point of contact, every job comes through me, I then allocate it out and then come back to you with an answer. I know other firms run on a different type of system. But yeah, I prefer the professionals I use next. Okay,
Nick Lincoln:next question was from Dan Weston, who's a good friend of the of the trap pack Daniel questions about fees. We will be answering that in a future question in a future episode in 2023. So we're not ignoring you. But we will come on to that. The next question is from Matt Tunbridge at Matt, underscore tumblers, a great podcast, especially the sound effects. Can you discuss risk profiling, perhaps how to create one that works, or at least how to get better results from them? Again, I'm conscious, I'm answering these first few ones the other guys will chip in, or you can't really create one that works. I have a risk profiling mumbo jumbo questionnaire to flush out the weirdos. And it works in that sense. But if you think if you think a series of questions that people don't understand, and don't have to answer, it's going to work ever. It's not. Again, it's the big thing. Risk is how you frame risk. The most adventurous fund is not adventurous, it's the safest fund over 30 years, the biggest risk to you is having your cash destroyed by inflation. But nobody else outside of the people who enjoy this podcast really talk like that. So risk questionnaires. Just have a few questions to make sure you're not dealing with a complete, you know, innumerate lunatic. No, that's that's their only purpose. Anyone else got anything to add to that? If you're not quick, we're going to move on. That's lovely. Thank you very much. Right les Conway again, I'll deal with this. Can we have a guest he says let's call me He's on Twitter as essentially limit ATM essentially limited. Perhaps every four six episodes introduced a guest for you to quiz challenge on both inside and outside the advice world. Maybe we will do less in the future. But to be honest, it's like herding cats getting the four of us together and not killing each other. What we might do at some stage God forbid we'll have a live trap event. I think that'd be really good. And then maybe we'll have some interaction with them with other human beings who like who liked the show. We'll do it that way. Okay with that, guys, okay. No one is a no one is yet killing me. Then ourselves a L V. S who's on Twitter as at Benjamin Al's 10 What is the maximum number of clients you think a financial planner should be able to have to be able to deliver proper financial planning interesting yet at your at your super conference, Andy hum. Recently, Melissa Kingston, she gave a talk, didn't she? And she said that the research indicates that to have rich connections with people, the human brain can accommodate about 150 of those links. And that includes friends and family. And whatever's left over. If you really want to have a good relationship with your clients, you can only allocate so much bandwidth to them. So I made the joke. Well, I can I can, I haven't got any friends and I don't have any friends and family don't return my calls. So I've got 150 links that I can use, I think 150 clients now with Zoom, I think you can do a really good job. If you end if you punch them into sort of five planning meetings a week, that's 30 weeks, 22 weeks off, work out what your turnover needs to be. I think you could do 150 clients using technology using it as a zoom based financial planning practice. Does anybody else have anything to add to that one?
Andy Hart:150 client families, Nick? Yeah. Okay.
Alan Smith:Yeah, cold call. What do you think that number is high way high for me? I think it's doable. But the question was more about having deep, rich, meaningful business relationships with your clients in your families?
Nick Lincoln:Yeah, I think 120 Maybe sorry. Cago.
Carl Widger:I'll be honest, I think at the outset, I would have geared myself towards way more because the, the asset size was much smaller. But as the business has developed, I think 150 is absolute top I think if you could get you know, 100 families that should be a goal for everybody. But you know, those commercial realities volunteer guys. So, you know, I would see that most firms are probably gearing towards 150 ideal scenario 100 100 with you know, reasonably sized asset values that will be absolutely ideal.
Alan Smith:Yes, interesting, isn't it because there's no doubt about it with more wealth. It's not linear, but with more wealth tends to come more complexity. We've got some clients with significant wealth and There's no way that you know, one annual planning meeting would suffice. There's so many things going on. There's a lot of activity during you. So it's perhaps a conversation for a deeper dive. Next year is about what's the sweet spot for clients for, you know, for complexity for time, profitability, revenue, all those things? Yeah, the answer to the question is somewhere between 80 and 150. is not very helpful. Yeah, it depends. It depends, like a piece of string. It depends.
Carl Widger:I think you've alluded depends on the maturity of the business. I think
Andy Hart:so. Yep. Yeah, that's the point. But but also the client type. If you're dealing with very high earners in their 40s, it's a little bit easier than people that are on the approach to retirement and doing phasing and stuff. So you're right. The client demographics important. And yeah, obviously the
Nick Lincoln:Yeah, I was saying 150, just for the absolute outlier of what you could probably do. I mean, I've got about 80 families at the moment, but I think I could definitely get to 100 120. And it, wouldn't you think I would give them a very good personal personal service? Okay, the next question is from Darren McDermott. No, sorry. No, it is it is Darren McDermott. One for Carl to answer, I need to be fully engaged with my clients the best service possible. It's a challenge when a large percentage of my clients are not engaged, and I seem to care more about their investing worth creation and financial plan than they do. Is this normal? And how do you guys remain motivated when the clients are either not engaged or do stupid things? Thanks. And love the pod Darren, who is not on Twitter, Darren McDermott. So Carl have a stomach that my friend
Carl Widger:to Isiliye, I was gonna answer that I did. Yeah, great. Yeah, I think if you've transitioned to financial planning, so if you had, if you started out in the business like I did, and you were a product seller, and then you're transferring into financial planning over a period of time, you're gonna have this problem, you're gonna have people who are not necessarily engaged in the financial planning. So I think it's much easier to get clients who are engaged in financial planning, if that's all you do at the start at the outset, and get them used to that. And, you know, this is a little bit different than what you might be used to Mr. Mrs. Client. But here's what we do. And here's how we do it. If you do, and, and I think Darren said in his question, you know, engaged in the investment, and then financial planning, I think, just flip it down, and focus only on the financial planning, because the financial plan always comes first. And I look there, I did, I've definitely issues when we started doing financial planning, whereby I was no talking to some existing clients, where I was telling them that I knew what pension funds should be in and all that kind of stuff. And I saw that I said, Okay, this is adding no value. And I actually don't know, but I suffer from the brainwashing that a lot of people suffer from. And that's a difficult transition. Because clients, you're changing the discourse with the client, you're changing exactly how you've spoken to them. And I remember, you know, some long, long standing clients, looking at me like a two heads, because the pensions guy was no talking about my goals, dreams and aspirations. And I remember be mortified, really embarrassed that I was, you know, and I had to force myself to do it at the start. And to stick with it. The great thing about hermeticism now is a lot of the people who work at Metis, Ireland, this is all they know, and this is just the absolute standard. And certainly all of our new clients, it's financial planning for us. So look, I would say, behind me here, stick with the plan, right? Just just convince yourself, this is the right way to go. But do not lead ever with the investment don't ever lead with the investment. Now, we have spoken about people coming in with pain points. So they might come in with particular pain points, respect that. Talk about that. But then your duty to be if you want to do real financial planning is to change the conversation to goals, dreams, aspiration, lifestyle, financial planning, that's where and how we add value.
Nick Lincoln:Andy?
Andy Hart:I would just say, yeah, keep doing your work, keep doing your process. I've had clients over the years that I think are less engaged. But then, you know, in year two, they're a little bit more engaged in year three, they're a little bit more engaged year four, year five. And sometimes you'll be surprised how much they are retaining, even if they sort of look quite disinterested in the process. So keep doing your work. And also is a business you need to be commercial. So if you're if you're getting rewarded correctly and doing the right thing and the clients not engaged, then it is what it is. I still think it's a net value what you're doing, Alan
Alan Smith:I've got a brilliant story about this, but we don't have time for stories on this particular episode or hold on to next episode. What I would say was priming helps How do you prime your prospective clients to get you to this stuff? I'm a great believer in giving gifting things. So books, loads, loads of books, I would simply say the famous Paul Thompson book called enough you send that to a prospective client hardcopy in advance or how handed to them at an early coffee meeting or something, just say, it will literally take you two hours to read it at most get your head around it, Mr. Mrs. Prospect of client because this kind of explains pretty much what we do. If you read that and come to the end of that reading that book and say, Oh, this is absolutely not for me, then there's no point engaging, because that is what we do we deliver this service, which is articulated through that book. So that can help. I think we've done that one, Nick.
Nick Lincoln:Great stuff. Thank you guys appreciate that. The next question is from Tom Redmayne, who's on Twitter as at Mr. We're at man till Romani. And his question is about how you build a client base starting from scratch. How do I do it? What would your advice be to someone in my position today? Tom, we didn't know your episode that we devoted a lot of time for this. And your question was posted back on the 21st of October. So hopefully, if you haven't listened to that, go back through the episodes one episode, pretty much the meat and potatoes of was how, how we started off and how we got clients. So I hope you find an answer in
Alan Smith:it's worth, probably come back to that in later episodes, because there's more deeper dives, because everyone, it's a recurring theme. People want to know how to grow, how to grow get with more clients, but for now, I think we've covered it.
Nick Lincoln:Correct that your next question is for Andy and Alan to answer Neil Marsden on Twitter as at Mr. Underscore monka. Okay, great show guys bit perplexed by Andy's comment about how he's proud not to be certified or chartered. Alan runs the charter firm. So we'll be interested in his views regarding the comment as well. So Andy, first and then, Mr. Smith? Well, I
Andy Hart:mean, it was a provocative statement, I'm just saying don't focus solely on exams. You know, I do work with chartered CFP advisers that can't build financial plans for their client and get me into teach them and train them. So I'm just saying, you know, you're not going to learn your way to the top in this business, you're going to behave your way to the top, you know, the fact that you've become chartered, it doesn't mean any more clients are going to be attracted to you, you still have to do all the work that anyone else has to do. So don't just focus solely on exams. It's, it's a hygiene factor. And if a client comes to me and says, I'm looking for a chartered CFP advisor, you know, show me your credentials, Andy, for me, that's a massive red flag. So I declare myself out immediately, because that climb would be a nightmare. So that's my stance on it. Over to you, Alan Smith, the chartered and CFP,
Alan Smith:it's when you hit the nail on the head, it's table stakes. It's entry level, if I went to see a lawyer or a doctor or any professional and the hadn't had this sufficient training, or qualifications, or under professional services, nevermind the kind of the bedside manner and all this sort of planning and sort of how to have conversations with clients, then I would think it's it's strange. So of course, there are chartered financial planners, certified financial planners that don't know one end of the financial plan from the other. But I'm assuming you do financial planning, you got a sensible evidence based investment proposition, you got a sensible fee model, and that you are qualified to the standard, which is now acceptable. The entry level, I've always thought this the entry level for fun, I don't know what the setup is like in Ireland car, but in the UK. Standards have raised over the years, but you still is called level four qualification which is a pretty it's, I think, five or six multichoice exams that you can do to then be given the responsibility of looking after a family's entire life savings and future financial security. I questioned whether that's good enough for most people. So for me, it's the right thing to do to get well qualified level six, some of my team, not me, some of my team are qualified higher than that. And then of course, you do all the rest of the stuff that comes in. So why would you not expect to be qualified? So I'm a big believer in Table steak qualification levels called anything to say for the Irish audience.
Carl Widger:It's similar here. So that's the qualified Qf, a qualified financial adviser. There's, I think there's five multi choice and then there's a written exam as the sixth one. And then there's other qualifications you can get retirement planning special and specialist Investment Advisor culminating in the CFP. So interestingly, I'm not qualified CFP and the reason I'm saying that is because I had a pick your brains coffee with a Trappist in Dublin recently. And I said no, I don't have CFD when Oh, you kept that quiet. Like it's something that I should be keep quiet. I haven't done it. We have we have a whole bunch of them in Metis and a whole bunch more training to be CFVs. So I'm very confident we have the expertise in house. We don't have I don't know about charter meetings because we don't have that here. But yeah, I think it's you got to have the in house expertise. And after that it's Can you deliver real financial planning but
Alan Smith:it's but as a chartered it's not it's by no means the be all and end all. Absolutely not. To me. It's just it's a range of things that you want to do just is to stick in the book, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Carl Widger:100% I love that phrase, right. You can't learn your way to being a brilliant financial planner. You got to be here. Have your way to doing it, I love I love that. But at the same time, you need the as Alan said, you need the entry level qualifications. And for us as a firm, we have them and more. You know, so that's, that's my view on,
Andy Hart:I think the five exams are quite a barrier, Alan, you're not gonna just going to last a walk yourself through that, that's going to be a lot of studying a lot of going through, and then obviously, your relative laxity, you're then going to be at a firm, and then you have to spend a couple of years in your apprenticeship stay. So it's going to take you many years before you're totally in control of a client's you know, life savings and, you know, future financial success. And and if I'm going to take a bit more of a philosophical view of this, if we, if you've read the book, sapiens, I mean, all of this stuff is just made up stories that we tell ourselves, the whole university system, how chartered system. You know, it's just stories we tell ourselves and someone's invented this stuff. At some point. It's a marketing pitch.
Alan Smith:It's just demonstration of credentials. That's all it is. There's always there's always lawyers that steal clients money, there's always, you know, surgeons that do the wrong the wrong things. It's just it's demonstrating credentials, it shows to your audience, your customers, that you've gone the extra mile, that's all we would say. So they'll be probably done. It's a matter of choice, I think, to answer the original question you were what your comments were was slightly tongue in cheek to say you take it as a badge of honor not to be slightly tongue. Well,
Andy Hart:no. Okay, okay. Let's move on from there. Okay.
Nick Lincoln:Right. The next question is from Mark B. And this one for Andy is a long question. So what impact do you think the evolution of Employee Benefits Services is likely to have on individual financial advice strikes me that there is now the opportunity for EB firms to provide very good group pension schemes and with Workplace Pension workplaces focusing more on well being. And with that financial well being Surely there is a scope for some of these companies to take business away from traditional advisors without an EB presence, perhaps not clients with an assistant adviser relationship, but certainly those two young are not wealthy enough, and the you volunteer for that one crack on my friend? Well,
Andy Hart:I think there's a massive opportunity to add so many more extra services for workplace, everything at the moment, we have pensions being taken from his salary, it's seamless, no friction, you can tweak and change, we're going to have workplace investments, workplace ICERs, there's going to be incentives around mortgages, insurances is going to get better and better, I think they're perfectly positioned for a lot of disruption in this space, which will play into our hands of employees will become even less attractive as clients because they've just got so much stuff sorted out at work, even though we can, you know, hold their hand through the options and stuff, it will just mean that we focus more on the, you know, the business owner, as a client or the retirees or whatever. So, I think there's going to be a lot of good innovation coming into workplace options, menu systems, you know, you join the new employer, and you got to tick boxes, what percentage of your salary, do you want to go into the pension? What percentage of your salary do you want to go into the investment and Eisah. And these are sort of six figure tick boxes, you know, when you join, you've got, you know, high expectations of doing the right thing, you know, at that time in the cold light of day in that, you know, initiation meeting. So I think there's going to be a lot of innovation in employee benefits, that's going to be a lot of exciting stuff. I think employee benefits 1.0. At the moment, I don't know the space well enough, but I think it's gonna be some some good stuff coming along the line.
Alan Smith:I agree with that. And I don't think they're necessarily going to steal the traditional financial planners lunch, they're going to make a bigger market, they're going to make it more visible. And as you say, all the nudges that an employer can provide. I read something recently that said, I think under 8% of the adult UK population took and paid for financial advice in the last 12 months, which leaves a market of potentially, you know, 92%, of which a smaller amount, but nevertheless, a pretty significant number would benefit from some sort of financial advice, be it you know, technologically driven, as opposed to necessarily always face to face music, use of video, and so on. So I think it's a huge positive if more and more people learned admin, going back to what we discussed on the last episode, I think education making decisions, informed decisions, use of video, short form content, all that stuff via your employer is ultimately good. I don't necessarily think they're going to come in and sort of take all the business away from traditional financial planning companies.
Andy Hart:Sorry, just find a point for anyone else wants to chip in, I think they'll also get financial advisors, experts to come in and present to teams, so there'll be more education at work, which is a whole part of the whole wellbeing thing. You know, financial well being and all the other stuff that there'll be, there'll be doing as well. So yeah, I think employees are well placed. It might be their action story, Gong Gong.
Carl Widger:Sorry, does that there's a platform from the States called Bright plan, I think, and this is the space that they're trying to get into and I know that they're talking to one or two firms in the UK. So this is this is a massive area of opportunity. Work has already started there. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, faith liversedge Who's on Twitter as at Faith? liversedge This is a question for myself and I think quite quite quick thought if you don't like being lectured by non practitioners, how are you going to get speakers to all those conferences? I'll quickly go and Andy, it's more your area. I don't, I don't like being it's not I've been lectured to by non practitioners faith is is a problem is when you're relentlessly lectured to by non practitioners. And that's part of the reason why trapeze is is it here is to give a voice to those at the coalface doing the actual bloody grunt work. I think some Nam practitioners, some consultants are excellent, but I do not want to go to any conference where they are in the in the majority. So I'm, you know, if they if they're good, and they're interesting, by all means, perhaps people who don't give the advice, but the balance needs to be reset, Andy.
Andy Hart:So I've booked over 150 speakers in my conference organizing career and the mix is 5050. You know, I want to hear from practicing financial advisors and I want to hear from let's call it experts, faith calls and non practitioners. Yeah, I call them experts. So yeah, I'm a big fan of hearing from experts. But I'm also a big fan of hearing from my fellow practicing financial advisors. Yep. Okay, listen.
Nick Lincoln:We're going up. No, we're not offering this out each time. He said that at the start, we just need to pay attention. And we get on his punch. His name is at a Alfa mother, golf hero alga Indigo. And guy Thank you really enjoying the content? Again, guys, I find this podcast really valuable. I have a very practical question in terms of your client meetings when having a deeper meaningful conversation. How do you note take in a format so you're right back and then run with them a year later? Yes, really good point. I think if you're in a meeting with with an autoresponder, that's okay. And you can chip in if you need to. You're in a meeting with a client, right? deep, meaningful relationships, you're paying attention, you've got lots of eye contact, you're really struggling, you're saying to yourself, just keep your mouth shut, listen really hard, get these people down good listening to. And then you're writing down. I think it takes away I think I think you're doing that. And maybe you're not as engaged within the body language. So I use something called otter Academy, I'm sure it's not new to people listening to this. There may be other services available. It's an online transcription service is very, I think good value is getting better all the time. It's done by AI. As we mentioned in our last episodes, another example of AI. So I record the meetings via zoom, and you just upload the mp3, or the wav file to otter, and about 20 minutes later, it comes back with a transcript. And if it's the second time you've you've had a meeting with those clients that recognizes the voice and will label the the person's as well. So labels the chat with whoever speaking at that time, print it off as a PDF, it goes in the client file. And then a year later, I will either read skim read through that quickly and or listen to the audio play the one and a half times. Just to remind myself exactly what was said was the only stuff that fell through the gaps from a year ago that I didn't quite remember. And that's how I do it.
Carl Widger:Quick, quick, quick one for me. With those two things we do we can, we'll also try and have two people at every client meeting. So we don't miss it. And then we do one of two things. We either do voice memos for the file to summarize the meeting, or more do more and more this this is really effective is we will do a synopsis of the meeting on video, which we will then share with the clients. That's a we do.
Nick Lincoln:Great stuff. Thank you. Thanks. So the next question is one for Carl. Again, it might be that we refer to a previous episode or we do a deep dive again in the new year. So James P, who's on Twitter as Jay Potter five. Hi, guys, I love the show. My question is I'm a new advisor currently building my client bank. How did you all do it? And with your experience? Is there anything you would now do differently? Carl, how do you want to play that?
Carl Widger:Yeah, I did put my name against this one because this is easy. I think we did I think it's episode one where we spoke about, you know how we got out there. And we kind of had a framework of two ways of doing it, which is going out pressing the flesh and then also creating the content. So I think if you can do both of those, I think, you know, that's that's the best way to do it. But I think I think it's kind of very similar to the question earlier on. You're right people keep asking, you know, how do you get clients, how do you get clients and it is that is the hardest part of the work. And I think we should probably come back to this another day.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, great, Stan. Thank you car. The next question and it's not what number have you call you've you've You've snatched your your first dibs on this one from James Hughes on Twitter as Jambo Hughes one networking for someone who finds the typical force networking events a bit tedious. I think we're all with you. And not to mention, they're usually full of financial advisors already. Do you have any tips for building your client? Thank you PS love the show. Keep up the good work. So it's kind of back on the same thing car.
Carl Widger:It kind of is and I won't dwell on this. But yeah, look, I'm not sure those large networking events, you know, are there A you're supposed to go out and get two or three business cards or whatever, right? I'm not sure they're much use, I'd much prefer the one to one stuff. So I would encourage you to try and identify your right type of client and then have as many one to one cups of coffee lunches, you know, dinners, that kind of stuff. Going to, you know, general social events, I think, you know, yeah, do that. But the force network and tank. I hate it off of heart of donors.
Alan Smith:You know, thing like it is real old school people talk about it is a bit, but it's good, is what it? Does everyone have an elevator pitch? So coilover? Could you describe what you do to someone doesn't know anything about you, or your business or the experience in literally 2022 seconds? Because most of us don't, most of us don't practice it. And most of us say I'm a financial advisor, which is one way to end a conversation. So I would encourage, if you're gonna go to networking events, do a bit of work on that. As we mentioned, I mentioned in the last episode, the keepers of influence program is going to wave is going to process they call it social pitch. How you describe it is you do in a meaningful way that someone's going to nod their head and they're either going to say, Oh, that's interesting, not for me, but quite a few of them will say, Oh, do you have a card? Can we have a coffee sometime? So you if you're gonna go to networking events, and you're looking at as a means to generate new business opportunities, you got to do your homework, got to prepare, you can't just show up unprepared. Next.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, the next question is from our friend who we saw quite a good few weeks ago now Rob Stevenson, who's on Twitter as at Rob s. Underscore kingmakers catchy one Rob. Excuse me. Do any of you believe there will ever be a genuine challenger to that firm? I don't know the power of a dark side. I presume you're saying you mean SJP. With that we can say STP I, I'm quite a big fan of SG certain things, the greatest marketing company in financial services? If not, if not in the world, certainly in this country. Anybody wanna have a stab at that question?
Andy Hart:I mean, they are an incredibly successful company. And they do a lot of stuff, right? I think it's the classic. People are not very good at cloning. So people will try and build a similar thing, but then remove some of the key elements that that might be the the essential elements. I think there's a few firms that are brewing, but but they're enormous in terms of the number they look after the amount of financial advisors they have, I think they've got about 20% of the financial advisor workforce. So for some thing to get to that scale and level, that's pretty astronomical. And to James's place a very similar to us that basically a pension company, suddenly 70 to 75% of assets are in pensions, similar to my firm your firm's. But the good thing about them is about 75% of their assets are in global equities. So they're doing the right thing for their clients, portfolios, predominantly with global equities. And they do a lot of financial planning, because I did quite a bit of work with them. So Will someone be able to sort of replicate that scale and what they do? I think we will find it very tough. over to Alan.
Alan Smith:Yeah, I think I think people already are pretty close to it. You got it. So people often seasoned James, please, Mark? Allen, I don't I don't think it is that great St. James's place as a brand as they get some of the things right. But what they get right is their business model is effectively a franchise model, then the so they rely upon did they do all sort of provide a lot of centralized services for people we've got a very static pricing model is effectively an old school commission model that we all know about, and with exit penalties, and all that sort of thing. But we've got a very good business model that attracts and retains kind of business operators, entrepreneurial, financial advisors. And that works. But now, I cannot go to a deep dive about lots of different brands, but I mean, someone like quilter, they're on the way to doing that some of the very big would have now rebranded as evil and or Evelyn partners, there's significant scale, they're multi 10s of billions, I think, SGP last time it were 120 billion assets. I'm loving that. There are people that are getting close. But the question is, do you really want to be I mean, I think I mean, I know, Rob, well, Rob's Ultimate is question really here is could there be an at scale, you know, real financial planning company that does proper financial planning, sensible investment processes, behavioral coaching, I think that is a long way off. I think that is much harder to scale than a traditional kind of SGP, or like an industrial asset gathering machine. And most of us are not that and never will be. I have no aspirations, frankly, to be that. So will there be other brands and companies that get the same size? Maybe, maybe there's some of the names I've mentioned, will there be ones that have the same sort of ethos and approach that four of us have? I think unlikely. I don't think it's going to happen. I think it's a cultural mistake. Yeah.
Carl Widger:And I think that's kind of the point isn't that really that's not our competition we do something totally differently. I think more I'd be more interested to see where SJP see themselves in 10 years time. So are they talking internally about you know, do we do this financial planning thing and very much I see yeah so so therefore, you know, how do we need to you know, protect our own brands from the big guys coming in saying they're going to do this kind of stuff and but they haven't come to Ireland because they heard about Metis Ireland
Nick Lincoln:and they ran away they ran away paid for excellent I mean, as critical as yet. It's a bit like Hargreaves Lansdown SGP people think Oh, they've only been around the last 510 SGP goes back to Jay Rothschild assurance. And Mark Weinberg. I mean, this thing has taken decades to get to where it is today to become this behemoth size and they have thought it and they made every mistake in the book along the way. And to allude to Andy's point. It's not it's not an original thought, I think it was Paul Thompson once said this, I would rather go to an SJP advisor who did full fat financial planning and go to an IFA with every chartered and certified credential under the roof. We didn't do it. So there you go. I think we're okay with that question. That's a good quick, it's a good question, Rob. And that's about the first interesting question you've ever posed. Rob, either here on our social setting, so nice to have a thank you for that. So the next question is for Oh, God. Crikey, Carla myself, Phil Donnelly, who's on Twitter as at Phil Douglas Don, according to research from the Association of Investment Companies, only 1% of advisors trust, sustainability from funds. Question to the whole panel. Good luck question to the whole panel with the cost of living and the risks of greenwashing. Yeah, me neither. What are your views on ESG funds for long term sustainable growth to overcome inflation? Carl, I'll let you go with that first. And if you want to fully I'll, I'll step away crack on old chap.
Carl Widger:Cheers. Yeah. Look, ESG is not in a place whereby we had met Azharuddin would be in a position to recommend any funds because I can't see who who's deciding on the qualifying criteria, who's deciding and what actually, you know, justifies an ESG label. And I shared within our own group, I think, a very large firm in the US, were fined recently, because they put an ESG sticker on a fund, and it was found not to actually be doing what it was supposed to do. And for us, it's a sit on the fence. Obviously, we all want the planners to be better, and to be more sustainable, and all of that kind of good stuff. Right. But I think my own very cynical view would be that fund managers worldwide are using ESG, to rebrand and reinvigorate themselves and to charge more fees. And so for me, I don't think we are where we need to be, I would really like to see independent assessment of these funds before they can call themselves ESG. And in ESG, there are three letters, there's E, S, and G. And there, if you delve into those, there are three totally different things. So you know, I think there's an awful lot more work to be done in this field. And, you know, there's a superb marketing. And I often use the phrase of, you know, the active fund managers come down with the shiny bros brochures, and the guy in the Armani suit and the cufflinks. Right, brilliant marketing, brilliant storytelling, but for me, invest in what has always worked, and don't go for the next best thing, the shiny new thing, the fence and see where this leads us.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, my view on ESG I think it's I think it's a scam, I think it's an outright scam. It's the investment industry trying to make yourself relevant again. And there's an underlying there's an underlying cultural and might and almost a cultural Marxism underlying ESG. And they're sort of despising of the of capitalism and the progress we've made in the world. And I could go on about it and I have read about this. But the nice thing is, you can see the worm turning and other people that I respect, I think some people in this in the studio now, but also external people who are looking at this, do you think that this is a crock This is an absolute crock of rubbish to force a certain type of thinking down people's throats? In terms of I mean, yeah, ESG funds will overcome inflation because it obviously invested in equities, but they certainly won't outperform the average equity fund or the or the s&p 500. In fact, the evidence is in on that. And it's also with capital allocation and so forth. So interesting question, Phillip. But let's, let's move on. Demetrius, Nurse Demi nurse after quite She's not let his Twitter handle this let his mobile which is oh, I won't give it out really You haven't even done. I used to call on Demi and his brother Julian nurse, and they had a practice in, in in Palmers green or palm was Greek as it's known colloquially, and I called them in the late 90s, early 2000s. A couple of good guys. Hope you hope you're both. Okay. Nice to hear from you. Demi Demi asked me? What's the panel's view on diversity and inclusion within UK financial services? Also the advice gap for young people? Are you wealth managers, or ifas. That's technically three queries. You really haven't changed me you'd like to get your money's worth? I'll take it. I'll tackle the diversity. I'm all for diversity of people are good. I don't get diversity about diversity of opportunities. Absolutely fantastic. Diversity of outcome is absolutely horrible, and ends up in the gulag, and the forced deaths of millions of people quite a quite strong answer there. But I hope you appreciate I don't care what color you are, what you are, what religion or anything. If you're good enough for the job, you're good enough for the job. Anybody else want to add into that, that he asked about the advice gap? He asked about wealth managers, rifles? Anybody got any other thoughts on any of that?
Alan Smith:Advice? Gabby? Gabby, we related to that was sort of referred to a little bit earlier on through employers, employers will provide access to I think technology will change a lot of things, the advice get this and commercial realities that people early on in their sort of personal and financial journey. They will, I would argue they haven't got the complexity anyway, to need full fat financial planning, if you're a sort of 25 year old getting on getting underway in your career, but But employers will increasingly play a role technology will play a role. And there are some very interesting new kind of tech developments of what should become available to help plug that particular advice gap. So I think, yeah, I think tech is the answer to that. wealth managers are ifas. That's a whole other conversation.
Andy Hart:Just on the advice gap, Alan, no, I think there is a lack of financial advisors coming through. I mean, there are certain, you know, financial services degrees, and other sort of apprenticeship style.
Alan Smith:The numbers are changing year on year, just just specifically the regular Regulus advisors in the UK is up about a 5% or something last year it will.
Andy Hart:Yeah, okay. I'd like to see the data on that. But yeah, there'll be an incremental increase, but I think more and more people are going to need advice, you know, 1000s of people are retiring every single day. So yeah, we've got a that's not the question here is the question was advice gap for young people young people are not retiring young people need a different type of advice, different type of education, different type of planning? Well, no, it's it's a similar sort of thing, isn't it? We have a question and a question. Think
Alan Smith:about the question. This is a nurse is asking you are you are you this is the final question. Are you a wealth manager or an IFA? I'm your
Andy Hart:answer. I'm neither I'm a financial advisor keep it simple people and put people in boxes keep it simple. People are looking for financial advisors. I'm a financial advisor. Okay.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, good stuff. Guys. Next question is for Alan to answer. This is from Joe for hours on Twitter as at Joe froward. F. P F. S Foxtrot, Papa, Foxtrot Sierra. Hi, all really enjoying the podcast? You're talking about all the things I hoped you would? Sweet. My question is around life planning? Do you incorporate life planning into your planning processes? If so, I would love to know the different approaches that you use? If not, I'd love to hear why you choose not to. I'm trying to establish how deep I should go into this with my clients, if at all, Mr. Smith.
Alan Smith:Yeah. So this all depends what you mean by life planning. I think it's one of these other things, which is an overused phrase, but like financial planning. My version of financial planning is different to some other people's and certainly life planning is the same. I think in my firm me personally, we've gone almost full circle on this. Having you know, read all the books been on the courses did the Kindle course some years ago, or certainly the short version of it, but read all the books loved it on a personal basis? I think we went deep dive on this. We have almost sort of philosophical psychological conversations with clients. I just didn't know what hit them. What the hell are you talking about? Here? I'm here to discuss my pension. So you find in my experience, you find an equilibrium that kind of works for you. Because one thing that will I'll speak for myself that I am not qualified to do phi sort of open a can of worms, I ask them specific questions about a person's background upbringing childhood, I'm not sufficiently qualified to deal with what might they might start talking about, I am not a psychologist or a therapist or anything like that. So it is a very this is back to the the process or the thought around is an art as much as the science of science, but you can get in the sort of technical aspects of it. But being a coach or mentor and understanding that you've got to just find your find your level that you are comfortable with, because it's all well and good asking a deeper meaningful question is dealing with the response that you get because this is not a tick box approach? We do as much as possible when we speak to clients. In the first instance, we do ask them to share their backstory, tell us about what brought you here, what's and then we talk about what money was like growing up for them. And we talk, we ask the question, we still ask the question, what does money mean to you? And we're sufficiently qualified to think to navigate our way around the answers to that the answers tend to be in a sort of broadly similar response that we can it does help and inform the conversation. But I'm not prepared to go any any deeper than that someone what family wants a sort of deeper conversation is probably other people we would refer them on to so broad, broad answer, but as I say, it depends what you mean by life planning the whole thing the whole aspects of financial planning is life planning. You know, because we're trying to identify what it what you want out of life, so that we can reverse engineer and build the model to deliver upon that. Any other thoughts?
Andy Hart:I think you nailed that, I think was really good. Wow.
Nick Lincoln:Superb stuff. The next question was Thank you Anna. for that. That's that's That was good. Next question is from Mark Russell, spelt with one L. He's on Twitter as at the financial the 70. To be answered by Andy, I think to all I have been a firm believer in index Based Investing since seeing what he says and he must have been amazing seeing Andy speak back to why 2018 When and what was the epiphany on the road to Damascus for you keep up the great content and outstanding output chaps thanks a lot more. Andy, what was your road to Damascus moment when it comes to? I was very fortunate next semester,
Andy Hart:I became a financial advisor. And for about six months into my financial advisor crib and had no clients wasn't really doing any work. I was I was randomly picking funds from the current firm that I was part of. And then I independently found DFA from I think, speaking to other advisors. And then I went to see David Jones in the old DFA office in Downing Street, had no clients had no clue what I was doing, but luckily ended up in an influential guy's office. And he was saying things to me, that made almost no sense. But I wanted to sort of research what he was telling me. And then I went on their course. And then I got exposed to Vanguard and Vanguard came to the UK. So that's been my intro to index investing, I've just sort of gone with the data really, and thank God, I've been able to turn off the active management noise in my life, because I can then focus on all the other stuff that we've got to focus on clients financial planning, building a business marketing, whereas if I had to every month or quarter, look at a load of random funds, and then work out what raindrops got to the bottom of the window pane before the last one and jiggle everything around. It'll be an absolute nightmare. So I'm so pleased I found index investing and all these good overdue asset class investing over to you Nick.
Nick Lincoln:I think that's really good for the four of us, we all use passive funds I have done for good number of years now just think of the amount of time and and stress that we haven't had to go through that over the years that you know, the fund managers and they're still going to seminars
Alan Smith:and seminars to read all this stuff,
Andy Hart:all that adds value to your clients to attract detract. Yeah, to extract wealth.
Nick Lincoln:called to do have a Damascene moment with you.
Carl Widger:No, no, I've not done that.
Nick Lincoln:Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Okay. The next one is from Louise. Ah, not Louise are Alan but Louise H. What do you find is the best way to record and store he got it he got there eventually didn't land. What do you find is the best way to record and store clients background information and soft facts that you wouldn't necessarily want to repeat on client facing documents? For example, clients who have suffered a bereavement or having a strange family situation? That's a really good question. And Carl, you've chosen to have a stab at that my friend.
Carl Widger:Okay. Yeah, I think, look, that's about a couple of things. Number one, you can't underestimate the power of the relationship. Right? So we spoke about how many relationships can you have? Because if you're involved with your clients over a long period of time, you're just gonna know this stuff. Right now? I don't think that's really the question. Right. So the question is, how do you store that? So? So I suppose that's about having, you know, a really good CRM system that you can put your data into. And then it is, we've covered it already. It's about how do you record stuff that has been discussed at the meetings, now, bereavements or that kind of stuff, you're not going to put it down videos or whatever, but you know, you do need to, to make sure that that stuff is on the file, especially if like Alan and myself if you have a pod system going so that the other people in the pod are absolutely aware and up to date with what's going on. So I think there's not like one perfect solution here. And I would just so encourage everybody just to you know, make sure that you are having one person who is the face Have those meetings and understanding the clients as best as they possibly can, but like question I was asked to, to our private line managers is plus the line into. So what are the hobbies and all that kind of stuff? So, like, that's kind of super on a superficial level, but you need to start asking these questions and really, really, really get to know clients.
Nick Lincoln:Okay, that's excellent. Thank you very much. Well answered. Thank you. So moving on. The next question is from Tom Kay. Again, Tom is not on Twitter. So it's Tom Kay. What are your What are your views on advisor training academies? How we were kind of talking about certainly, what are your views on advisor training academies offered by larger, commonly restricted firms that fast track newbies to level four within months? Yeah, Andy, you you, you crack on with it, my friend.
Andy Hart:I think I think they're brilliant. I think they fill in the void. As I was mentioned earlier, I think we have a lack of new financial advisors coming through even though Alan says the numbers are slightly gone up. As I say, I think the more and more people that will need advice going forward, the bigger and bigger pension wealth that's going to be created. You know, we need more financial advisors. The one I know that does, it is St. James's place again. Again, they're filling a void. St. James's place a very good at sort of phrase that comes to mind is from farm to fork, you know, so for them, they want to get new advisors in, in the early stages, they'll, they'll grow them as best they can, and help them you know, build mature businesses, they will then allow those advisors once they're at a certain point to sell their clients back client banks down to new advisors. So again, they've got this whole ecosystem going on. So yeah, it starts from the training academies, if that's what he's, he's referred to them as. So yeah, I'm a big fan of them.
Nick Lincoln:Interesting. I just, there's a podcast that came out that last came out in early December, early December, for the money marketing podcast, and they interviewed Andy Payne, who's the guy who runs the SJP Academy. And that's quite recently, if you go back and search for that gives you an insight as to what was they do it from business from a business interest they want, they want these advisors and they want they want to get them when they're young. But it talks you through the process and what the pros and cons are and how they've got the academy to work.
Andy Hart:And you might correct me, but they even help them out with business plans and stuff like that. And they've got they've got no clients nothing going on. So it's a very serious professional structure and process. So yeah, a lot better than us just doing some random exams and then ringing up some random IFA in local town and sitting in their office for three years going, What on earth are these people? Do you know?
Nick Lincoln:Yeah, it's professors. Okay, that's great. Thank you guys. The next question is from a chap called Daniel Arbeter, who's on Twitter as at Darby. And I actually know Daniel Arbeter. He was in the office, the firm in the office next door to me when I used to rent an office in Rattler, and he is a young, he's a young IFA just got his exams, he must be in his early 20s, mid 20s, perhaps, Uber bright, nice guy. Dan, I hope you listen to the show. Your question was, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the advice cap. It seems to be an unpleasant truth in our profession that clients with an investable amount below 50 to 100 grand are simply not profitable enough to work with. When profitable clients ie those with 100 grand or more to invest represents such a tiny sliver of the country's population, how can we hope to provide quality financial advice to those with smaller sums? Is there anything that can be done to bridge that gap? And I'll have a quick stab at this, but it has kind of been? I think a lot of younger people don't necessarily need a lot of advice. They just need to they need to do to be in their company workplace pensions, and just accruing money. They don't even realize they're accruing, right? And if your question about having small pots, makes it not financially viable for the advisor, then just charge a fixed fee, whatever your minimum is, if they haven't got the sufficient funds, then you just leave them standing. Hey,
Alan Smith:I know you come around in the end, well, I
Nick Lincoln:do it already. My friend, I have clients who don't have the means or the customers buy to let investors right they don't they don't they don't have they don't yet have liquid assets they've got they've got assets. So I soak it was it my minimum and we're gonna get it through a standing order.
Alan Smith:Spot on. I think that when I read that question, I thought that that's your answer for those who need it and want it and prepare to pay for it. Just the fact they got 50,000 of liquid investable. That's one of the big things is wrong with the prevailing fee model. If someone's going to pay whatever your minimum is standing order, whatever, you can do it. So I think we've answered that. Yeah.
Nick Lincoln:And Daniel, all of us do going forward in your in your career, you're going to be great. So a cobra 54 minutes or maybe cut to take a couple more because otherwise I think we might might stir. We might all just exclude spontaneously this question is for Alan and Carl to have a go up from Steve. Steven Barrett who's on Twitter as at Bluewater FP. You talked in an episode about building a safe sell on value for your practice. But where do you see future valuations coming from? Surely automation is going to impact the industry and AUM will become less relevant. Will practices be fee based? We'll pay Just based on fee income or something else, well, it's quite a lot of unpack there so we can take a bit of time with this one.
Alan Smith:Yeah, I'll just jump in to that one. I mean, fundamentally, there are some basic rules about businesses and valuations. In most industries, a valuation is effectively in in summaries that is the discounted value of future cash flow future profit. That's how, you know footsie 100 companies, s&p companies, and indeed financial planners. However it's constructed however, the kind of business brokers and advisors will describe it as that's ultimately what it is. That's interesting in that valuations have crept up. I've had more than crept up over the last few years, and more and more acquirers have come to the market. Last I heard had a conversation recently, there's over 100 acquirers in the UK, right now organizations from huge like American private equity companies to smaller consolidators in the UK. So it is a seller's market right now. And why is it interesting? Well, that the events of the last few years, which have included a pandemic market, or at least two bear markets, have shown advisory firms of all shapes and sizes to be resilient. So they might have taken a short term hit to their revenue, but it bounced back quite quickly. Most people haven't lost clients throughout it. And if you are an acquirer, regardless of what industry you're in, what you're interested in is, as I say, it's a future cash flow. So that's why these businesses have are valuable. And so I mean, the kind of the nuance to the question is technology changing and moving to a fee based model or a sort of a retainer or whatever it might be? Well, that's fine, it kind of doesn't matter, I would obviously make a case that a, a sort of flat fee retainer based model is more resilient, our fees don't go down during market declines, but then the same time they don't go up and markets race away. So but they are more predictable, I would say. So that type of business will have a value and AUM percentage based clients, firms will have a value. And yes, things will get more automated, but just to try to tie a few of these questions together, right now, advisors in the future, who do embrace technology, in theory will be able to take on more clients, more revenue, hopefully using technology are more profitable and therefore build more and more value into their businesses. So I can't see any significance. I mean, Famous last words, but I don't see any significant reason. For that to change the next few years, I think businesses will be worth continued to be worth a fair amount in the years to come. Call us some thoughts.
Carl Widger:Yeah, I think everything you've just said there is valid, I would just refer back to Robert Stevenson's video that I refer back to in our last episode, which is succession powered scale. And Rob talks about the Aum model, the avatar model, but then intrinsic value, and I think, like Alan says, in the short term, I don't think the Aum stroke avatar model are gonna change that much. But I think intrinsic value is you know, if you're looking longer term, I think that's going to be really important. But yeah, the answer to the question is watch Rob Stevenson's video, please, Addy
Andy Hart:altered the video, I'm just gonna say the cost of money is going up. So the cost of money going up will have a negative impact on the sale value of firms. And we haven't really seen the fallout of that yet. So that's going to be quite interesting. If the cost of money is still expensive. What then the sale value and how much of a seller's market it will be then.
Alan Smith:Possibly although most of these companies have raised equity as opposed to debt Yeah, they've got dry well, it will. It does. It does have an impact but like anything when there's there's a lot of people chasing a limited number of products or businesses to buy it does it does drive and there'll be short downs
Andy Hart:large companies have night hour and Kalani
Alan Smith:look forward to what's next.
Nick Lincoln:Well, listen, we're at 5059 minutes and I'm aware this is quite this is quite intense. And because we're all having to really concentrate here and and word was snappy, struggling the strike. No, I'm fine. I'm fine. But do you want to draw a line under this one? We were we've got looking at my bolting sack. We're now on this this letter sent in is postmarked the 14th of November. So we've got we've done all the questions up to the 14th of November. Do you want to keep on going for a couple more?
Andy Hart:It's up to you German.
Carl Widger:Ideally, I'd hold some questions. We're going to need some questions for our for our episodes in the new year.
Nick Lincoln:We thought we would we've really had a good go. That's pretty okay. I'll tell you what, let's call that day for now. But if your question wasn't answered, It will be answered in a future show. As you know, it's really important to us that you understand the trap is that the show is formed by you. It's not just for for egomaniacs rambling on for the sake of it, we want you to shape the way the show goes. So without much further ado, I think we're sort of coming towards the end. Thank you to all the dear TRAPPIST it's been a we've had so much fun doing this any episode nine. Love the feedback keep on giving it to us. We wish you all a fantastic Chris whatever the PC thing is. Merry Christmas Season's Greetings, holidays,
Unknown:happy holidays, whatever
Nick Lincoln:you want to call it. We hope you have a good one from the Trap Team wishing you all the best for now and a fantastic 2023. Guys Matt, nice to see you guys in the studio as well. Thank you for your friendship. Have a great,
Carl Widger:Happy Christmas. Thank you Nicholas for organizing Trump. Well done. Happy Christmas everybody.
Nick Lincoln:My friend take care bye