HSDF THE PODCAST

Securing the Border: Technology, Innovation, and the Operational Edge - Part 2

• Homeland Security & Defense Forum

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Welcome to “HSDF THE PODCAST,” a collection of policy discussions on government technology and homeland security brought to you by the Homeland Security and Defense Forum

Our panel of experts tackle one of their most pressing challenges: how to effectively sift through massive volumes of data flowing between CBP, TSA, and ICE to extract actionable intelligence while protecting privacy. They discuss deploying AI and machine learning at the edge, where operators often work in protected spaces with unreliable communications. Rather than developing solutions in isolation, DHS embeds data scientists directly with operational components, ensuring technologies meet real-world needs.

Featuring:

  • Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection
  • Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security
  • Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator)

This discussion took place at the HSDF’s Symposium Defending the Frontline on June 26th, 2025. 

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Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator):

All right with that. I think we're going to turn to the audience and let folks ask questions. I believe there's Sam who will be running around. If I can have anybody choose to volunteer as our first person for a question. I do not believe there are no questions. Oh over here. Oh over here.

Audience:

Hello, my name is Nanette Wright and I'm from Battelle and I have the Infrastructure Safety and Security Group, so we're doing work at the TSL, tsif and looking at infrastructure protection. My question is with all of the data that's coming in, how are you thinking through being able to sift through the large amounts of data that exists to extract the pieces that are going to be critical for your use? Are there any research projects going on in that area right now?

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

We have a number of research, research options isn't right, the right word. So one of the things that we are looking at is really in how we better crosswalk across various systems. Right? So CBP has their systems, tsa, ice, and so making sure that you know, if we're looking at all of that data, because there's such an interconnectedness between between each of the components, and I think that that's happening at the headquarters level, not necessarily just within SMT, but we do have a large data analytics group that is focusing on exactly those kinds of questions. Right?

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

How do we exploit the data while protecting privacy? How do we use those AI, large language models to find that you know, sort of signal in all of the noise to take actionable, to make actionable intelligence for the agents and officers who are in the field? How do we push that data to the edge? Right? So we have a number of operators who are in protected spaces and don't have reliable signals, but they still need to be able to process the data that they have. So we're looking in a number of different avenues for that, in close partnership with the components, because we, s&t, don't own the data, and so that's one of the things we have to make sure that we're working hand in hand with the operational components. Oftentimes we'll embed data scientists so that they can be there building solutions right alongside the components, so at the NTC or with ICE, you know, in their innovation lab, so that we have the data scientists building the solutions to do that data analysis right there in the field.

Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator):

Next question. If not, I'll follow up, but we'll see.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

We're going to start asking you questions. Who's making eye contact?

Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator):

Oh good, we have someone in front. Thank you.

Audience:

Good afternoon. My name is Azam Mirza. I'm from Astreon. One of the questions I have is for the S&T group. What are some of the areas in Counter UAS that you are exploring right now to help the operators out in the field?

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

The easiest thing I could say is detect, identify, track, take down.

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

No, I joke, but those are the large areas, Because we have different use cases than DOD. Oftentimes, if we're thinking about infrastructure protection, we are in major cities, we are in places where we have to sort of safely recover the drones so that no one gets hurt. So how do we do that? We also have to work with people who don't have all the authorities, so there's an authority problem. But I think that's one of the big things that we're looking at now is how do we take down a drone without causing any damage? And then, after we get it back, how do we extract all the information off so that we can go find who was doing? Sometimes it's not nefarious, sometimes it's just people that don't know that you can't fly drones right. So how do we separate that intent I think you had mentioned something about determining intent and then how do we do the forensics to make sure that we're going after that and that will feed into some of the other data sets. So I think those are probably the two big areas for countering UAS.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

And just want to add certainly the Border Patrol is the lead office in Customs and Border Protection on, frankly, our use of drones as well as the counter strategy. But from the Office of Field Operations perspective, there's two things Certainly, our space is really important at the ports of entry, a lot of sensitive operations going on and it's not the individual, you know, either south or north of our border that's sitting there with binoculars anymore. We are really challenged by the visibility that people can have on our operations. And setting up things like outbound operations without a lot of notice, you know, is really important to us. But it's the authorities issue.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

Certainly that working through that is really critical and I think you know the focus of the work that we're invested in. But it's also interesting there are bad actors that we encounter crossing the border that we're invested in. But it's also interesting there are bad actors that we encounter crossing the border that have these types of devices that they happen to travel with and being able to exploit the information off of those. And the Office of Air and Marine actually is the lead office within CBP that has that capability and supports us but being able to, you know, access that information, you know, download it quickly and turn it into. You know, operational intelligence for us is critical.

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

Building on this from a previous question about like looking at that threat landscape in the UAS space. We've seen a lot of very creative uses of drones. The Ukraine war has shown interesting things there and so making sure that we're tracking and understanding how we might counter those sorts of threats that we're seeing change every day. So those tactics, techniques, procedures, that's a lot to keep up with.

Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator):

So I'm going to check with Megan. Do we have one more question? One more question, all right? Well, if not, maybe I'll just turn to you and ask you a different question. We've talked an awful lot about what's underway. How do you see that changing the skills needed in the future workforce, both in terms of the CBP officer or a future scientist who wants to work at S&T?

Rosanna Anderson, Principal Director (Acting), Science & Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security:

Data scientists, data engineers, people with AI expertise Absolutely need those. We have a vast array of missions at DHS. We talked a lot about the border security mission today, but we also have a mission to counter chem bio, radiological, nuclear threats, and so that's a very niche specialty. We have missions we talked about critical infrastructure, but we also have a maritime mission, and so we need all sorts of scientists sensors, of course, data scientists. It's so vast what we do at DHS and you can talk to every component and their needs are so varied S&T. We need everybody. So I don't have a great answer to that question, other than just saying our mission hasn't changed, but we definitely need to drive forward, making sure that we can create maybe some of those traditional science areas like chem bio with the AI and the data, the data science.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

You know I mentioned I wasn't super tech savvy. I felt fairly tech savvy up until probably the last five years, where now I've had a number of moments where I kind of go back to the 1980s when I was teaching my mom how to program the VCR. And now I, now I feel like that. But what I can say about the workforce that we're recruiting and it really crosses, uh, you know, cbp officers, our agriculture specialists, our import specialists, um, our entry specialists, our mission support specialists there is a tech savviness that they bring with them, thank goodness, um right, and it's making sure, um, that we are open to learning in the roles that we're in now. But I think you know the comfort that people have, you know, with things like artificial intelligence, machine learning is really important to us because what we see happening with the deployments that we do have, the new technology that we have been putting out there, not only do they embrace it very quickly, but they wind up making it much better than we anticipated and really, you know, enhance and enrich the technology.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

I think, from the perspective that we have, when we look at just the CBP officer position and if you think about kind of the background coming into that position, yes, someone who's interested in working in law enforcement.

Diane J. Sabatino, Executive Assistant Commissioner (Acting), Office of Field Operations, U.S. Customs and Border Protection:

But whether it's logistics, whether it's data analytics, whether it is, frankly, a retail background heard of tariffs, customs I mean, we do that too All of these different kind of backgrounds are really what makes up an incredible organization. So there's a variety of skill sets we look for for people to bring to the table, but I do think that that generation that is maybe they shouldn't be tied to their not all about finding the bad person. It's actually, more often than not, ruling out who we do not need to speak to, so that we can actually focus on the unknowns, the threats that we need to dig into and identify. I think, in that space where we're looking what skill sets to bring to the table, just that willingness to lean forward and be interested in change, embrace technology, but also have an understanding that it is, at the end of the day, a human being that's making the decision, being able to adapt quickly.

Patty Cogswell, Former TSA Deputy Administration (moderator):

Well, with that, I just want to say thank you to both Diane and to Rosanna. I really appreciate you being here today and sharing your thoughts with us. Thank you, thank you.