Counter-UAS in Action: Protecting U.S. Borders from Unmanned Threats Part 2

Welcome to “HSDF THE PODCAST,” a collection of policy discussions on government technology and homeland security brought to you by the Homeland Security and Defense Forum

 Our panel unpack the two levers that change everything: faster acquisition and specialized training. Gear that works in rugged border terrain must be ready for stadium perimeters and complex RF environments, and it has to arrive without emptying existing deployments. With only a few DHS components holding mitigation authority, we dig into why legislative fixes and interagency partnerships matter, and how a finite workforce can be stretched across 11 event cities through standardized playbooks and interoperable command-and-control.

 Featuring:

• Matt Becker, Vice President and Division Manager, Leidos 
• Erik Sorensen, Assistant Chief, Defense Capability Group/C-UAS Operations Coordinator, U.S. Border Patrol
• James “JT” Thom, Executive Director, Domain Awareness Security Operations, Air and Marine Operations, CBP 
• David Aguilar, Former CBP Acting and Deputy Commissioner and former Chief of Border Patrol (moderator)

 This discussion took place December 12, 2025 at 8th Annual Homeland Security & Defense Forum Border Security Symposium

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Transcript

Urgent Demand From Upcoming Events

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So that that goes to needs, requirements, and timing. We've got a couple of little events coming up that are going to press this issue uh beyond anything we've seen. The FIFA World Games and following shortly thereafter the Olympics, and then you've got inaugurations, and you've got all of these things coming that are going to very quickly bring in higher demand for the operators. What do you see as a requirement, as a need that industry might be able to get, and I say might because uh it it it's it's upon us, what they can bring, uh what they need to be looking at, and what the requirements are. JT, from your perspective, basically overall, that you play a critical part on the ground. Uh supporting part. So how about it?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I'll jump in from the I'll appreciate that.

Field Flexibility And Procurement Bottlenecks

Scaling With Limited Authorities And Staff

SPEAKER_03 0:59

There you go. Um we are fortunate in in CVP as a whole when it comes to having to shift. Because we deal with such a complex and ever-changing environment, because we work in rural, we work in densely populated, we're very used to shifting rapidly and being flexible. So this allows us to assist with these types of events and not actually see a large change from what we're doing on day-to-day. We just pick what we know works and we send that there. With that in mind, a challenge that we face is the speed of acquisition. Um, and that is partly on our end, right? For decision making and the choice of purchasing and budget. On the industry side, we would really look to that speed of delivery. Um, we have to provide specialized training for these types of sear events. It is different, it is a completely different environment in why we're there. And that's what I mean by a different environment. Um the equipment may be the same, but we need equipment that we can send there without reducing what we have out on the border. So, sure, we may have what's effective today on the border, but now when we have the World Cup with 11 different sites, I can't just empty all of my COS capabilities from the border. Um, and I know that's gonna be a challenge for industry, as everybody is gonna be asking for equipment and asking for it yesterday. Um, but that is the largest challenge we're facing, I think, period, from our mobile aspect on the ground is speed of acquisition and delivery to the field.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, I I think uh I think Eric nailed it. I I mean it's about the ability to scale what we're already doing. Yes. And and that's predicated on real really two fundamental things. Uh, Eric nailed the the the speed of acquisition is one, and then the training to be able to deploy and man uh the things that we're gonna be we're gonna be asked, we're gonna be asked to do. It doesn't change sort of the fundamental uh um uh processes by which we're building things. It's just now with World Cup, now what, seven short months away, something like that. Hey, the sense of urgency has been sort of ramped up. But the one thing we have going in our favor is the one big beautiful bill has has sort of sent some funding our way that's gonna allow us to sort of play a little bit of catch up. Um, but uh we we've definitely we've definitely got some work to do. I I think there's uh there's some opportunities for us to leverage partnerships uh outside of just uh just CBP. Uh clearly CBP is gonna have an identified role in this, uh to what scale. I think we're still sort of working through that. I think at the end of the day, uh it's gonna be kind of all all hands on deck uh to determine within the department uh to be able to determine uh what our investment will be. I'm sure most of you most of you know um there's only a handful of of uh sort of components within the department that have counter UAS authorities. It's not widespread across the entirety of DHS. It'd be nice if it was, it's not. Uh we've got CBP, we've got Coast Guard, Secret Service, and uh uh Federal Protective Service. That's it. That's the only one currently with counter UAS authority to be able to mitigate. And so we've got it, we've got to get at there's some legislation, some legislative sort of uh answers here uh in terms of authorities for state locals. I think that's that's improving. We've seen signaling from uh you know from the administration uh that there is an appetite uh to sort of push that out. That's gonna help immensely. But at the end of the day, it gets back to exactly what Eric said. Uh we we've we've got to ramp up the procurement process to be able to have Kit to push out to these uh 11 uh locations that are gonna occur uh simultaneously. And I don't know what the what the the game count is. I think it's in the neighborhood of 60, just just on the CBP side. It's a pretty heavy lift. And and we're not getting more people to do it. Guess what? You know, these these guys are coming off the border, they're coming out of the ports, they're getting out of the cockpit or whatever they're doing to be able to be able to lift and shift to these 11 cities uh inside of the United States to support these counter-US efforts.

Exploring CUAS As A Service

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah. So a question here, um maybe for industry and maybe for uh the procurement shops, but given the importance, given the time frames, given the vulnerabilities and threats and the risks, is something like a C UAS as a service doable?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

So yeah, I'll I'll answer uh I'll answer that at least initially. Um the short answer is of course, yes. Uh it is doable. Uh and we spend on the industry side, when we talk about procurement at speed, I mean, that is something we spend a lot of calories trying to figure out how to bring in lead times, how to work with vendors, you know, even left of the orders. In some cases, even ensuring that we've got product that's available on the shelf where we can, right? And there's you know, cash flow and and all those sorts of implications, so we can only do that to some degree. Uh but we we certainly feel the burden of ensuring that there's a mission need that's out there that requires delivering by a date and trying to figure out ways in which we make that happen. And again, we like I said, we spend a lot of calories doing that. One of the levers that I have seen work and that you know could be even the type of lever that that gets used for the upcoming World Cup games, is back to sort of some of the interagency things we've been talking about a little bit, is there is some of that gear that is already exists that lives in in the hands of DOW in either in sort of real programs uh of record that on the acquisition side of DOW or sometimes even within sort of ST uh, you know, as things are getting developed, there's you know, prototypes that are mature prototypes that might be uh the kind of thing that could be made available. And so I that is definitely um and industry plays a role in that and uh and sort of being able to sort of connect dots with between the government sides to make sure that uh the gear that we think is available uh could maybe be used for an important mission that that is uh coming up. So anyway, that's that's I think kind of how we sort of uh how we sort of view how we're gonna go uh sort of solve uh delivering when it need the gear that needs to be delivered by when it's needed.

Policy Shifts And An Industry Call

Defense Capabilities Group Explained

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Okay. So uh I want to switch over to something else, but I just want to make the following statement. Last year, this same time, we would have never thought that we would have been taking as a country the actions that are being taken uh uh uh in the Caribbean against uh smugglers, uh, that the border would have been shut down the way that it was, which is outstanding. Uh interior enforcement is is uh is ramping up even more. Each one of those comes with its own challenges. But the reason I say that is pressing upon the line as to how much we can do with the support that we're getting now for this administration. I think there's very little that can't be done. Now, this is to industry. These guys know what they need. They know what they want. They also know how fast they need it. This is a plea to industry. What can you do, and not necessarily independently? Renard Singleton, the guy that basically controls most of this, has said over and over again, come to me with a solution. More than likely, it's not going to be one company. It's going to be a coalition, a team. Uh, I would again, I feel obligated to state that on behalf of these gentlemen here and the agencies. And I know for a fact that there are tremendous capabilities out there. So pushing for something as a service, I think might might be a good approach. Let me switch gears very quickly because I wanted to make sure that we covered this. Defense Capabilities Group, to the degree that you, the operators, can talk about that. What can you share with us with the industry here? Because I think it's gonna be critically important to them to recognize this.

Deepening Alignment With Department Of War

SPEAKER_03 9:22

That that's a great question, and I'm glad we have the opportunity today to discuss that. So, and I'm gonna try not to speak for Department of War, but also for a similar uh uh effort on their end. What has happened uh most recently because of the growing uh threat with SUAS? We realize with things like the World Cup coming up, the speed of technology changing, we have to keep up. And unfortunately, we all know in this room the government tends to be a little slow from time to time. We get in our own way. Um, and so Commissioner uh Rodney Scott did us a huge favor in that realm by um creating the defense capability group. This is gonna consolidate all CUAS efforts and all of CBP into one group with representation from every component, allowing us to streamline decisions, streamline acquisition, um, which Renard is still gonna be the person to call for that with the DCG. Um, and it's going to allow us to ensure that we're not duplicating efforts, that we aren't wasting any of that precious funding. And it's gonna allow us to also streamline our training and unify that, partnering at the same time with Department of War, who just stood up, the Joint Interagency Task Force 401. They are the CUAS point of contact for Department of War now. And in the heart and spirit of this current administration, we are joined at the hip. Giada 401 and the DCG are working hand in hand to ensure, again, that we're capitalizing on what each one of us is doing that is applicable for what our mission set is. Um, and this is going to allow us to work together on the southern border, work together on sear events, share equipment, um, share best practices, our TTPs. Um, for example, you know, the cartels um taking advantage of the TTPs out of the Ukraine-Russian war with SUAS. We do not have that expertise. Department of War is where we get that from. Now we have a direct line. I was in two meetings last week, which I had a 401, sharing how do we get on the same page, how do we streamline this, um, and how do we maximize taxpayer dollars to get the right equipment to the right place without waste. And I think this streamlining of the DCG is you're gonna see 2026 be a massive year in our ability to deal with an SUAS threat. If you are in the CUS space in the industry, it's gonna be a big year for you too. Um, for all of us, we are gonna move quickly in calendar year 26. CUAS is going to be, in in, at least from my perspective, tip of the spear with a lot of what we do, and the DCG is gonna handle that for us on the CVP side.

Audience Question: AI And Intent

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't have a whole lot more to add. I I think he kind of laid it out there pretty pretty uh succinctly. I I think this is a this is sort of a um an indicator. This DCG mandate is sort of an indicator of the level of interest this counter UAS threat has has sort of garnered at the highest level. Um, you know, that there's a director, there's a deputy director, but but the reality is this this DCG reports. This is remember, this is a CBP function. There's other sort of uh members of the counter UAS sort of uh uh community of interest that are not part of the DCG. So CBP only. Uh but this DCG reports directly to uh the deputy commissioner. That that that's how sort of interested uh uh you know uh Commissioner Scott is in this this whole this whole sort of area. Uh the other thing that I think was was kind of important that they're a hit on was the the DOW, the Department of War. Um and it's not just about counter-UAS. You know, the missions across CBP, we have never been more closely aligned uh with the Department of War as as we are now. And it's interesting because our missions are not all that, they're not all that different. You know, there's a uh there's sort of a sort of a fine line between homeland defense and homeland security. Uh and and right up until you get to the part of of prosecution, they're almost identical. Uh, you know, prosecution in the law enforcement environment means just that, right? Kind of taking some uh uh uh some rights away from somebody based on based on an action. Uh prosecution on the on the DOW side has a whole different meaning. Um and it they never make it to court. Um and so we we get we kind of we gotta kind of split that, you know, split that hair a little bit. But in terms of detecting and tracking and all those sorts of processes and comms protocols and all that stuff, um kind of hitching our wagon to an organization that's been doing that for hundreds of years is not a bad thing. Um so I I think I think this has created, and we're just getting started, quite honestly. I mean, we've kind of you know had some individual sort of partnerships with the DOW over the years, but this is like a you know, this is like an all-in thing. Um and and and it's not without um some challenges, obviously. Uh again, this, you know, Nogales, Arizona is not Afghanistan. Um, but sometimes the DOW, it all it's all desert, you know. So we we we gotta be real careful in in sort of how we're laying this out. Uh, because we we can really uh get ourselves into some some uh some litigation, some serious trouble if we're not careful on developing protocols that that allow you know the freedom of movement for US citizens at the same time as we're getting after these uh these nefarious actors, counter-UAS or otherwise. It kind of all fits in the same bucket when you're talking about border security.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Excellent. And I'll I'll just add uh real quick from an industry perspective, the liaisons that we see between uh DOW and DHS or CVP, like Ford Task Force 401, is actually a very uh attractive, it's a it's provides an avenue for industry to sort of understand how do we kind of take some of the technology and systems that have been developed on a military contract and figure out a way, you know, to have the conversations uh to be able to have them apply, or maybe a variant apply to uh a customs and border protection problem.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Okay. I'm getting the hook over here, so we got time for probably one, maybe two questions. If anybody's got any questions out in the audience. Okay, seeing go ahead.

Operator Fatigue And ML Triage

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Mathias Kennedy from uh EHSST uh uh watched uh everything they do. So thank you for your service. Um one of the things we did see though, um I think when I asked the question about looking at the detect, mitigate uh the whole kill chain itself, the importance if you could talk to industry about uh looking at behavioral, right? The intent specifically, how important is it to look at the intent and integrating AI into the solutions to help with that? Um as the nefarious you know aircraft are being flown by the border at these different NSSEs, how that would be useful for the agents would be good to hear about.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, uh hey, great question. And and by the way, thank thank you for what you do to to help support this uh this kind of US from a from a from an RD perspective. Um hey, I I think I think AI is is is kind of has a role in a lot of things that we do. I think we're still, my opinion is we're still kind of at the front edge, front edge of that. Um we we are when it comes to to the DTI part, detect, track, sort of identify um behaviors, I don't I just I just don't know that we're there yet. We just need to see things. And then once we develop a a sort of normalize what it looks like in terms of you know trend analysis and tracking and crossing and movements and all that sort of stuff, then we can start, I think we can start to better leverage AI in determining sort of some predictive uh sort of analysis, which I think is kind of what you're getting at.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, and so I think uh AI is is uh I think a big part of how industry thinks about certain aspects of the problem. Again, the the broad buckets of sense, decide, act, where you see AI the most is going to be in the decide part, right? It is making sense of the detections and tracks that we're getting in, both from a kind of a swarm perspective, understanding what you know the dots on the screen are really uh, you know, doing and where they're really at. From a battle management perspective, you see a lot of AI coming into play, things like weapon assignment pairing. We talked about you might have a lot of different effector types. Well, what's going to be the most effective and most appropriate for a given sort of uh situation? And then you also see it uh sort of along the lines of what you're alluding to, which is, you know, hey, can you, you know, come, you know, divine some sort of intent based on certain aspects of what you're surveilling. And I would say, I mean, agreeing with JT here, it's still in the early days. I mean, there's certain obvious things, I guess, that are AIist where you can look at, well, where did the track come from and where is it going? Is it sort of a threatening type of track? Um, what you do see something uh that's I think machine learning based that is much more mature is uh something that will automatically uh sort of flag a track, for instance, as something that looks a little different, you know, you know, blink it or turn it red or something to say, yeah, look at this one because we can't, well, I can't tell you exactly what it's doing. It's not behaving the way we've observed most tracks. And so we have seen those capabilities in various contexts.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

It's uh certainly valuable. To capitalize on what Matt just said there, from the ground operator perspective, we absolutely want to see more of that because the cognitive fatigue that Border Patrol agents um our officers at PoEs just staring at a screen all day, chasing dots on a screen. I remember doing this uh 20 years ago when Chief Aguilar was my chief chasing ULAs and chasing the wind, literally, because uh that's that's where the technology was at the time. I went home more exhausted at the end of the day working the radar than I did hiking mountain. Mountains all day. That cognitive fatigue happens so quickly, and machine learning is absolutely where that's gonna reduce that and allow our operators to do more and do more correctly.

Drone Volume At The Border

SPEAKER_00 20:10

So hey, hey, if I could just uh kind of frame this a little bit, and I'm I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, Eric. Um the the volume of drones operating in the vicinity of the border, can you can you can you talk to that a little bit just so we get some idea? But you talk about this for cognitive fatigue. Yes. What is that, what's driving that?

Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_03 20:28

To speak generally, um, because I don't want to uh make any mistakes with with exact numbers or anything like that. A in a single area of the border uh where we break it up into sectors, we can easily see over 5,000 flights. And and I don't mean in a month. I mean there could be there could be 5,000 hits in a day. And out of that, we may only have 20 that are legitimate. Right? So it that's operators having to deal with that. Um, that's a huge number. And you spread that across the entire Southwest border. It's it's just too much to deal with, it's too much to handle. We really burn out our operators very quickly. Um, and they're saying, hey, can I go to a different program? I'm done. I'm done with COAS. I appreciate the opportunity. Let me go ride horses or ride ATVs for a little while because they need the break. Um, those numbers are astronomical. They are reduced significantly from what we did have 15, 20 years ago. And I appreciate that from industry. I know it will be massively different 12, 18, 24 months from now, but that's what we're looking at.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Well, I'm afraid we're gonna have to cut it off here, but obviously, this is a very important issue. These are the people, uh, and we thank you for being here with us today. Thank you much.