Bruges and Ghent: How to Explore Belgium’s Best Canal Cities

Bruges and Ghent are two of Belgium’s most unforgettable cities and we’ve been back many times, and yet still can't wit to return. In this episode, we talk about the cobblestone streets, canal walks, Christmas markets and the famous Ghent bar where you have to trade a shoe for your beer. From Airbnb stays in Bruges to the NH Hotel in Ghent, we share what to see, eat and experience in both cities and why you should plan to visit them together.

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/seize-the-day
License code: G7J4UDC0NAOFRJYL

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome back. I'm Lisa. And I'm Aaron. And this is the Getaways Podcast. I'm so excited about what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

You know, it's funny. I was working out like when I right when I woke up this morning and I was like, oh yeah, we're doing we're doing the Belgium cities today. And I was like, oh my God, I want to go back so bad. Like there's it's Ghent and Bruges, is what we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

And they are so incredibly it's the epitome of a fairy tale village.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

But but for real.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

I mean, they are so like uh almost too good to be true.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah. Germany is obviously famous, the most famous for their Christmas markets, right? It's where they started, it's where the big ones are. France has great ones, but um, there's something just magical about Bruges and Ghent Christmas markets, too. I know we're not talking about Christmas markets today.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Well, we have to talk a little bit about them because it's such an important part of the trips that we've had there. But we've been there. Okay, so for Bruges, we've been there twice.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

And for Ghent, I've been there three times, you've been there twice. Twice. Yeah. But actually, no, you've been there three times, and I've been there four times because we went, we just drove in for lunch one day with my sister.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

We did, we did.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So yeah. So should we just start with Bruges and start with those trips?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yes, because Bruges was the first.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Bruges was the first. Yeah. And we went with my nephew, Jonathan, for a weekend, basically, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah. We got an Airbnb on that trip, which which could go down as a fail. I mean, it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

It's a 50-50.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

It was a beautiful Airbnb right on the canal, right on the edge of the center.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Uh-huh. Well, okay, so what we've learned from living in this part of Europe is that the stairs can be very, very steep. The stairs in the Netherlands and houses are very, very steep. So we're used to steep. And Rex is used to steep.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

These weren't just steep, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

And Rex is used to steep. Yeah. But these were, they were metal and they were slats, but they were also the part that like threw me over the edge was that you had to walk the way that they wanted you to walk. Because on one step, it would be like a place for your foot, your left foot, and then the next stair would be a place for your right foot. And then and so on and so on and so on. So it wasn't like you could just, you know, willy-nilly walk up and down the stairs. I mean, you had to step on the place that was intended for your foot, or else you would fall. And when I say metal slats, these things were sharp too.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Like you would have hurt yourself if you fell down those stairs. Well, and Rex and Rex wouldn't have never been here. But that wasn't the bad part. That was not the fail part of this house.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Talking about the stinks?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah, the stinks. The stinks were the fail part. Mainly you, mainly it wasn't me. Mainly the down downstairs for some reason.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, the bathroom and the down downstairs. Which again, like the things that we've learned since we've been here. Like there's a weird thing about like airing out your house when you live in a very wet area like the north, like this part of Europe. Like everybody gets to has you say you have to open your windows for like 10 minutes a day at least to like air things out. Well, you could have aired that place out for days and it still would have had the stank. I mean, it was terrible. Weird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I think it must have been just because the sewer must have been right underneath this because we were right next to the canal. It was so stinky.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

But the funny thing about both Ghent and Bruges, we have stayed in Airbnb's, but they're not easy to find at all.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

No, and not cheap. Like I will say that Bruges and Ghent, because they're so small and so encapsulated by just nothing around them. It's not, I mean, you can get to it from Belgi uh from Brussels quickly, but it's not like you've got a lot of suburbs and stuff to put Airbnbs in hotels. Like there's few hotels, much fewer than like here.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Well, yeah, I mean, it's a smaller city.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, and there's barely any Airbnbs, and the Airbnbs are not cheap. The hotels are not cheap.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

The hotels are not cheap either. But no, but it's they're very few and far between the Airbnbs. So I think we were very lucky. And aside from that one, we've had pretty good luck in both cities.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Well, our hotel in Ghent was great.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Our Airbnb in Ghent was perfectly located.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

It was huge. And it was, it smelled a little like it wasn't winning any style awards. No, but but it was there were a lot of us too. There was a lot of us, and it was very functional, and I thought it was great.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And the other Airbnb we got in Bruges was fantastic when we went at Christmas time.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah. Um, all right, so let's back up to Bruges. We went on a little, a little tangent there. So Bruges, I knew about Bruges because of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

I I didn't know about either place.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

But the movie I'm talking about is the Colin Farrell in Bruges, I think is what it's called, right? It is one of the just like we said, it's storybook, fairy tale, like stunning architecture places I had been. Yes. And it's very small. The center, like most villages, its size, is mostly walkable or only walkable. Yeah. Except for the horses and carriage that take you from the main square and will take you on a little tour around the historical area. And then it's the city's also called the Venice of the North because there are canals absolutely everywhere. So you can also jump on a little canal cruise.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Which we do every time.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Which we do every time. But the most magical time was when we did it in December with my sisters and Megan. Snowing. And it was snowing so hard and so like, you know, when the snowflakes are so big that they're like just floating for like five seconds, like right in front of you. Like it was so like we stepped into a snow globe. Like it was dumb. I think about that. Yeah. I mean, because it was kind of like just you couldn't have scripted it better. Okay, so going back to our trip with Jonathan. So we went, we so we checked into the Airbnb, and then we had a really hearty meal. Do you remember that place? I did, yeah. Where they're very into like it's cold. We were there in fall, and about this time, or a little earlier, I guess, but they have very, very hearty stews.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yes. And I don't know, did you it feels like northern it Italy to me? Like the polentay. I know it wasn't polenta, but and stewed meat kind of thing. I think we had deer. Did we have deer?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Yeah, it was definitely game for like gamey meat. Yeah. And like a lot of sausages, a lot of potatoes, which I know sounds heavy to a lot of people, but when it's cold, and we actually sat outside that night. We did. There's nothing better than like a hot, rich soup and potatoes and bread and me getting larger by the second.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yes, and with a good cold Belgian beer. Can't beat it.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

For you, not for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

How was that Belgian wine?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

But so we had a really nice dinner, and then Jonathan and I did with Rex, did a like two-hour walking tour in the morning, which took us through we saw a lot of the city, and we saw like the open air market and we went through all the churches, had a really kind of a nice like global view of the city. And then we came back and what'd we do next? We did a waffle making class and beer tasting.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

So yes, yeah, it was both really early in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Not early, like, but like 10 o'clock.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

10 or 11, I think. Yeah, because we got up early to do the tour.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

And so we started off with a beer tasting and we tasted what, like four different beers and then made our own waffles and then made our own hot chocolate.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yes. It was it was kind of the perfect morning.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

And then we loved it so much that we then brought my sisters and Megan back to do it when we were there at Christmas a few years later.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Did we do the beer tasting with them?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

No, because that was like morning morning. I think it was like at 9:30 when we did that.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Not that it matters, but but I think it was just the hot chocolate. And I was actually thinking that I should make the hot chocolate and put it on our website because it was so it's just like delicious, pure chocolate fantasticness. So look for that.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

That'll go up in a couple weeks. Yeah. We're doing what I'm calling Thirsty Thursdays, but it's also eating Thursday food Thursdays. But on Thursdays, we're gonna have either a drink recipe and video up or a food recipe and video up of something we've learned here.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah. So after, and then we just kind of did it, we just kind of chilled around and walked around.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

We did the boat. We did the boat afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, that's the first time we did the boat.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, so we did the little canal tour, which is I was crabby that day.

unknown 8:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Shocking.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Which it was also like it's like eight euro a person or something. Yeah, like it's not expensive.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Three or four pickup places.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and regularly, yeah. Like in it, like every half hour, if not less than that, people are coming in and out.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

It's very Venice in that sense. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

So definitely recommend that. Because it's also just interesting to see the city from a different perspective. And like you get a little tour. So yeah, definitely recommend that. There's it's also just kind of the place that you get lost.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

We did stumble into quite a few chocolate stores. Well, I know, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

You just kind of wander, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, look at that place. Like everywhere you turn, there is like beautiful chocolate shops with every version of chocolate you could possibly imagine. I mean, is Belgian chocolate the best chocolate? Well, it depends. If you live in Switzerland, then they're gonna say no. But if you, you know, like Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's just it's kind of just the place where it's like you don't really have a huge big agenda. You just kind of like wander through the streets and eat a lot of chocolate and french fries and enjoy the scenery.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, yes. Now, as we said, it is hard to find housing or hotels in Bruges. It is about an hour, a little under an hour from Brussels by train.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Oh, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, it's it's quick. It's quick. But what I will say is you don't need a lot of time in Bruges.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

No. No, if you're just especially if you're not going at Christmas time, I mean, I would want to hit all the markets and kind of be very leisure.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

You can still do that in two full days in Bruges.

unknown 10:12

I like to take my time.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Because there's only like four markets in Bruges. Yeah. But so you can combine it at, you know, you can combine different places if you're going to. I it's just, it's not somewhere you go for a week.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Well, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. So Bruges is definitely a place you want to go. It's gonna be, it can get a little crowded, it can get a little touristy. You can go any time of the year. I would definitely encourage you to go at Christmas, but if you want to see it a little less crowded, I would hit the off seasons, plan for a day or two, plan ahead. Probably you're gonna do a hotel because it's not that easy to find Airbnbs.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Now we'll move on to Ghent.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

But since we're moving to Ghent, my question is do you think Bruges is more crowded than Ghent?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Bruges is definitely more crowded than Ghent. I don't even think most people know about Ghent.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Do you think Bruges is more crowded than Ghent at Christmas time? Because the Ghent Christmas market is way better.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Ghent. Ghent. Okay. So I've been we so the first time we were there, we did just a one-night stop during Christmas time on the way to our Christmas vacation to the UK.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

On the way to the Cults Wolves, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Stayed at the NH Hotel, which was perfectly located.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

And really nice and not crazy expensive.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

No. Then I went and it had Lisa's dream Christmas tree.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

It did. It totally inspired. It didn't actually end up being anything that I did, but it inspired a whole Christmas theme in my head. Second time was in fall with my sister. We stayed at the Ibus Hotel a little bit outside, like on the very, very beginning of the outskirts of Ghent.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

You stayed at an Ibis? Yeah, it was really nice.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

And then we walked, we were able to walk into the center easy, no problem. And then the third time we went with my other sisters and Megan for at Christmas time for the markets, and we stayed on an Airbnb. That was the one we mentioned earlier, that was also just kind of right outside the center, but we could jump on a tram and be in the center in 15 minutes. Yeah, even less than that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

And it was it was a big house because there was a lot of us, six of us.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah. All right, Gent.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

So the first time when we went on the way to England, we were with our friend Katie, and it was our first time, and it was so magical. Like it was the best Christmas market ever.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

It's the whole town.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, I I forgot a visit. You forgot a visit? Yeah, because we drove in. My sisters wanted to see it, so we drove in for lunch. We did. And that's what inspired us to come back for the whole Christmas market weekend.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

With your sisters, because we had already been there for Christmas market, yeah. But yeah, so the whole town is a Christmas market during Christmas and Ghent. I've never been not Christmas. You have.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, I have. So there's a lot of it's a very small medieval village city. Bigger than Bruges. Is it? I think so. It doesn't feel like it to me, but but it's very again, lots of canals, lots of history, lots of incredible architecture. We did a walking tour there, a self-guided walking tour, my sister and I did when we were there in fall, and learned there's a lot of like dark history that's happened there, but it's it's just a really again kind of magical storybook fairy tale location. But yeah, lots of lots of history. And we did the castle, the castle of counts. You did that tour too with with us, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Um, no, we went into the basement.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Oh, so there's a big castle in the actual city of Ghent, and it's the castle of counts, and you get tickets and you get an audio tour. And the fun thing about the audio tour is it's given by a I don't even know where he's from, but he's a stand-up comedian and he does the whole tour. And so he takes you through and tells you all of these funny stories and like has you look up at certain places and see things you wouldn't see. It's a super, super fun tour, and it only takes probably in total less than an hour if you know if you're just kind of following along with his guidance. But it's historical, it's interesting, it's also really cool because you're in the middle of this insane city and in a castle, and then they do it all up for Christmas too. So, and there's a basement bar that's really cool that you can go to during Christmas. I don't think it's open the rest of the year. It's very, very cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah, and during Christmas, they do like illuminations on the inside of the castle that are really cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

And the interesting thing, talking about like dark history, right across the street from where the castle is, there's a little square, and that's the square where they did all of the public executions.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Where the French Fry places? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

And so it obviously has a very dark history, but people would watch and the royalty could watch from the castle. But since that has been long gone, they decided that they wanted to kind of turn the vibe of the current memories to something happier. So now the lights in that square flicker every time a baby is born and gets what? Yeah, you didn't know that. I thought I told you that. Yeah. So the lights, all of a sudden the lights will flicker and everybody's like, oh, a baby was born. So it's kind of a sweet way to like re-in, you know, change the vibe of a square. But there's a lot of things like that, like right down the street, probably on the same street, but maybe a block closer to the cathedral. There is the smallest bar in the world, or in Europe, I'm not sure which one. And that is where they would take the criminals for. They didn't have a last meal, they had a last drink. And they would go and have their drink at this place and then walk over to the square that's now flickering for babies.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Oh, then what an interesting story. Got got a lot for you. You know what else is in the square right by the castle? The best French fries we've ever had.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Well, up a little bit. It's it's that's the other square. That's where the little bar is. So it's like a block up.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, but yeah, that's called frites at yeah. Atier, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, I'm gonna put all this on the website. Check it.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

But that place is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

The line, there's always a line.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Well, and they make everything fresh. So it's not like it's not fast fries, like you you wait like a bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

They're so good. Like I want to go back right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

No, I know. And it's weird because well, not weird, but cool because you can get like a meal, like a fry meal. Yes, or you can get like just fries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

With different toppings, but the fry meal is still just fries, but it's just got a lot of good stuff on it.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Well, but it like one of them is like with stew, and so it's got like the stew sauce and meat on top of it, which is I mean, that's hardy, you know? And like they had all and like carbonara, they had all different kinds of yeah. So, in terms of food, there is one other dessert item that is a big thing there. The noses. The noses, yes. Don't remember the nose candy? No, that sounds like cocaine. That's not they have these like jellies, they're kind of hard, they come in all different colors and they're shaped like little cones, but they call them noses. Have Dylan and I had them, yeah. We bought them the first time and then uh we didn't like them. So lots of people do, so give them a try. But but yeah, everybody was curious about it. Then when we went back at Christmas time, and Lori almost bought some when we I was there with her.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

No recollection of this.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, no, they're well. I'll find a picture and you can put it on the website because yeah, there'll be just like you'll go to a candy store and there's just like bins and bins of noses.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And I usually like jelly candy.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

They're I think they're very hard.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

I don't remember them that well because it's uh not my bag, but yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to look at pictures of these to jog my memory.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

And really good chocolate in this town.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Really, yeah, really good chocolate and on every corner. And then in terms of drink, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I didn't, did you guys go?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I we tried. So there is this place, it's in a square that's like a little bit on the other end of town from where we were just referring to, where the castle is and all of that, where it's like an old school bar or pub. I don't even know what they would call it. And it is when you go in and place your order, you give them your shoe and they hang your shoe in the ceiling, like in a bag, and they like hoist it up to the ceiling, and it stays there until you pay. And so you can stay and you know, open a tab and whatever and spend your time. And then when you're done, you go over and pay, and they drop it and you, you know, look for your shoe.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

It's called the bar is called. I I don't know what do they speak German or French in Ghent?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Or Flanders. It's Flandish. Flemish. Flemish. Flemish.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Flanders. Okay, so I don't know how to say this. And I always tend to, when I try to say words that I don't know, I lean towards the Italian pronunciation, which would be completely wrong here. But it's called Dual Krit Bar.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

And it is it's a super cute location. It's a super cute idea. So my sister and I had every intention of going there, and and for some reason it was closed, but it was so funny because we walked up and started to go in, and there was a bag of shoes on the door. And so they must have just like all the drunks that didn't pay their bill the night before, they just left all their shoes out there.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, I want to go there.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

The shoe bar? Yes. Yeah, no, it I think it would be really fun. I think it'd be fun too with like a big group of people, you know, and you make one person on the tab. Yeah. So the other thing in Ghent, which is sort of unexpected, I guess, is because it's such this like medieval town with such a deep history, is there's a graffiti street.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Oh, yeah. It's a very long alley.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

It is a very long alley. It is Right down the road, maybe a two-minute walk from the NH Hotel on a little shopping street, and you just turn right into it, and it is the most like spectacular graffiti, and it's a very, very narrow alley. Like, you know, two people can walk at a time basically next to each other. And you can just come in and paint. And the rules are you don't paint over anybody that's not that's better than you. So you have to make sure if you're gonna paint over somebody that you are really good, yeah, and nothing like grossly offensive.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

But it's it's kind of a cool celebration of art and artists and expression and it's it's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, and the stuff is really good. Yeah, I go there every time that we're in Ghent.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, it's really, really kind of fun to see.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And short of that, like just walking around the center day and night is just so nice. They've got great shopping, they've got great little stores.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

And even though it's like medieval, there's one street that's very like there's a Primark, and there's you know, there's like the street is it's the one that joins the two big squares. It's kind of the best of everything because you get this like fantastic historical city, but with all the modern accommodations and elements that you need.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

So and Ghent is a little closer to Brussels, so a little shorter train ride.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah. And I guess because it's a bigger city, you have more options for hotels and varying prices too.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Still hard to find Airbnbs.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, definitely. And like I said, it's definitely less crowded than Bruges, but just as spectacular in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Now you knew about Bruges before and not Ghent before.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I don't even remember how I knew how I discovered Ghent. Maybe it was just that we were finding a way to get to the UK. We needed to stop on the way to the UK. Was that it?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Maybe. All right.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And then slap us in the face with Christmas charm.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I know. Okay, so you have to choose one. Which would you choose? Ooh, Ghent.

unknown 22:04

You?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Ghent, yeah, for sure. But that's nothing against Bruges, it's just the Ghent is so amazing. Because I I would definitely not kick Bruges to the curb.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

But I just feel like there's more in Ghent. It's because it's a little bigger, there's more to see, more to do.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

You took a boat tour in Ghent.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

I did. Yeah, how was that? With my sisters. It was good. It was cold. Yeah. And so like the top was on. I don't like it. You know, so it was it was a different experience than in the snow in Bruges. Yeah, no, I would think I would definitely I would definitely pick Ghent to go back to, but with Bruges coming in a very, very, very, very close second.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And they're very easy to get to from Paris. They're easy to get to from Amsterdam by train, like within hours from both of them. So do it. There's yeah, there's nothing stopping you. Go do it. All right. Well, thanks for listening. Check out our website www.the getaways with a Z dot com. And we'll see you next time.