Black History Is History

Terrilyn Crawford grew up learning the Black history at home that she didn't learn in school. She told me about her favorite stories in Black history, Black inventors everyone should know, and her experience in the classroom. I also spoke with her mother Glenda Crawford, who grew up in Costa Rica, and her father Terry Crawford, who grew up in both Costa Rica and Harlem, on how their culture influenced the way they raised their children to learn Black history. All of their stories magnify one throughline: Black history should not even be taught as something separate from American history. Continue your education with our Black history resource list: https://linktr.ee/episode2resources and follow us on social media: https://linktr.ee/reconsidereverythingpodcast

Transcript

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Sometimes growing up in school, you're, you're conditioned to then adopting what you learn in class. So I felt like growing up I envisioned American, like an American person as like this white man. Mm-hmm., white hair, blue eyes. And I didn't realize it until I went to college and I was like, wow. What's conditioned to think like that's an American welcome to reconsider everyth. A podcast that dives into the impact of how American history is and isn't taught in the us. The lack of multicultural history taught in schools has been brought up more and more the past few years in mainstream conversations, but have you ever thought about what that means for those whose history has not been told or celebrated for centuries this season, every week you will hear stories from people of various backgrounds who answer that. And gain insight from those working in education. I'm your host, Marissa Nichol, and this is just the beginning of what I call the American History Project. Hopefully you'll learn a lot of new history that will make you reconsider everything you know and the empathy you have for the people around you. Speed. Okay, like, I'm just gonna start. Wait. Am I good now? Okay. For this episode, I spoke with Taran Crawford, who grew up in the Bronx and learned the black history at home that she didn't learn in school. Even saying black history in this introduction feels wrong because one of the many things we discussed is that black history shouldn't even be labeled as something separate from American history. I was about a year and a half into working on this project when I listened to an episode of Tara's podcast called the Tea Room Podcast. She and her co-host discussed the misconceptions of the US education system, including the lack of black history she learned at the private school she went to from kindergarten up until she graduated high school in 2007. I knew I wanted to ask her more about how that impacted her and the topic she wishes she learned in school. I also spoke with her mother and father on the importance of teaching their kids this history. As a disclaimer, neither Carolyn nor I are historians. Everything we discuss in this episode is based on our own research, and as always, you can find resources on these topics in the episode description below to continue your own education. So just to give some background, so you grew up in the Bronx? Yes. Can you tell us about where you live now and what you're doing now? Sure. So now I live in Harlem and it's a big, um, transition from living in the Bronx just in terms of location. Mm-hmm., not everything is from Pluto, from traveling everywhere and now work for V Media. So I'm a customer experience manager there.. I've been working there for about three years now. Okay, cool. Yeah. So you went to private school up until college, right? Yes. So when I went to school in Our Lady of Victory, um, demographically, it's just mainly Hispanics. Mm-hmm. and, and, and black, um, people that lived in that neighborhood. So the school reflected what the neighborhood looked like. Mm-hmm.. But when, in terms, when I went to St. Barnabas from fifth to eighth grade, it was an all white school. Mm-hmm., mainly Irish, uh, neighborhood. So that was a big.. Big difference from, from when I was going to, um, a later victory. And then when I went to high school, it was kind of back to, in terms of the type of people that were there, it was back to when I went to school at in Mount Vernon. Okay. And how did that feel going back into that environment then? Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting because it was an environment that I was used to mm-hmm. and grew up in. Um, but it was, it's just in general, just going from. black and Hispanic school, so Right. All Irish to back to black and Hispanic. It was very interesting. Mm-hmm.. Um, and so did you, I mean, when you say like an all white school, did you know the black students at St. Barnabas or was like very few, or was it literally none?? It was very few Uhhuh . Um, I was, Probably the only one up until when I was in seventh grade and that's when more people were going into that neighborhood. Mm-hmm.. So there was a little bit more diverse, but, um, when I first started there in the fifth, in sixth grade, I was the only black student. Gotcha. Yeah. Wow. Okay, then. Like through those years at home. Mm-hmm., you were learning black history at home. Can you tell me about like, how you learned about that history? Sure. So, um, where my parents are from education is, is very important. It's very prevalent in, in the household. So I think that's something that they wanted to bring kind of, um, carrying on with me and my sister. So growing up we always had books about inventors, black inventors, about, um, historians or about. Abolitionists like Frederick Douglass. So it was always something that was common to me. Just being surrounded by like black excellence, knowing that, um, black people have a rich history. Mm-hmm. was like always something that wasn't, that was common in our household. Mm-hmm.. Right. So they were set out to teach you about black histories. Specifically, were there other cultures that they, or it was mainly that? Yeah, it was mainly, um, black history. I know we did have some books about, um, like ancient Egyptians. Mm-hmm., but the focus just was more on, on like African, like culture. Mm-hmm. and African American history. Mm-hmm.. Um, so when I was listening to your podcast, it seemed like you touched on inventors mm-hmm. in particular quite a few times. So it seemed like that left an impression on you learning. Inventor specifically. Mm-hmm.. Um, so can you gimme like some names of people that I guess maybe you were most interested in or left an impression on you? Yes. So Garrett Morgan, um, he's someone that stood out to me, so he invented the traffic light, and I always thought that was so cool because I didn't hear about that while I was going to school. And obviously it's something that we see and use every day. Um, and he also created, um, a breathing device for firefighters. Mm-hmm. back in the early 19 hundreds. Mm-hmm.. So I thought that was just really interesting because it was something I never knew before. Right. And something that people still used in, in the present day. Mm-hmm.. Um, do you remember what age you were when you learned that? That is a good question. I think I was around, Eight or nine years old. Okay. Yeah. So do you remember learning about inventors at school and kind of being like even like white inventors and being like, why aren't we talking about Garrett Morgan or E Exactly. So I remember growing up learning about like Thomas Edison. Mm-hmm. and things of that nature. And I always. Just was curious. I'm like, why are we only hearing about this, these specific invent inventors and not the inventors that my mom taught me about. Mm-hmm.. So I thought it was very interesting that that part was kind of left out. Mm-hmm. of history when I was in school. Right. And so now, like we both know that. Yeah. It's because it's, um, white people we were talking about in school. Um, Garrett Morgan specifically. Yeah. It made me think of this memory I had of, I was watching a movie at home with my. And like halfway through the movie, I think like Matt Damon was in it, or Mark Walberg. I get them confused, but I , but I, it was like halfway through, I was like, dad, is this a movie about the guy who invented the windshield wipers? Oh. And it was an interesting story. Mm-hmm.. But it just made me think, I'm like, there's just so many like random movies then that are created about inventors, but um, we use traffic lights more than we use windshield wipers. Exactly. And so it kind of made me think. Um, is this, because I don't know, then we get into this whole bigger issue of like who's working in the entertainment industry creating these movies, is it exactly because of what they know? I mean, we grew up knowing like a mass amount of information through going to school. And so is it just cuz that information is missing and like what are the stories we would be able to see if there are more black creators in the entertainment industry who like had a chance to do that? In general, and you kind of touched on this, but like why is it important to know who these inventors are and what they invented? Um, I think it's important. Then other cultures and other races can, can see that, you know, again, like black, black history is not isolated from American history. Mm-hmm., it's a part of it. Mm-hmm., it is American history and I, I just think it's important to know the things that we use today are invented by people that may not look like you. Right. Or people that you thought invented it and they actually did it. Yeah. So I think it just makes you a little bit open minded. Mm-hmm. to. how innovative a group of people can be. Right. Was there a point for you? Were you caught on that? It was like we're mostly talking about white people and that that was just kind of part of like a systematic issue? That is a great question. I think I caught on when I was in middle school, so maybe. when I was maybe like 10 or 11 years old and we just learned about Martin Luther King. Mm-hmm., Rosa Parks. Malcolm X, if there, it's a little radical school. Mm-hmm., but mainly just those two people. Mm-hmm. and Harriet Tubman. And it was frustrating because I didn't understand why it was such a limited, um, history. Mm-hmm. on just those three people. Yeah. When so many., um, black leaders were prominent throughout history. Right, right. How did that make you feel when you kind of started to catch on to like, we just keep repeating this, like, did you feel like it was repeating year after year? Yes. I felt like it was very repetitive and it made me feel like., do they not know about other, um, leaders or other inventors in history or do they not just want to teach us that? So that was something that I always wondered going into high school and even going into college, and I don't think I thought about it. Mm-hmm. in that broad way. Mm-hmm., I think it was more so I wasn't.. I don't think they knew about it. Yeah. So therefore they taught us what they knew growing up. Mm-hmm. or they wanted us to only know about these three people. Mm-hmm., that's how I felt growing up. Did you have these conversations like out loud with, at home or like with friends at school? Or was it more just kind of internal thinking? That's a good question. Um, ? No, I don't, I don't think I had it with my peers. It was more so like, well this is a curriculum. I can't really do anything about it. Mm-hmm., it's, it's kind of just cemented in, in the curriculum. This is what we're gonna learn. Right. But I do, I felt like at school it was kind of known cuz my mom is the teacher as well. Yeah. So it was just kind of like, well, unfortunately, The education system that mm-hmm. We are going to, and what we're gonna do as parents is make sure you know your history mm-hmm., but it's not something that you can really change from where you're going to school. Right. I spoke with Harlan's parents over the phone as they preferred that to an honor interview. Tara's mother, Glenda Crawford said she bought a series of books with information on great inventors that her kids would read at. She said if they had to write a paper for class, she would choose someone in black history. She knew the teacher didn't know or hadn't heard of. I said, you take this and present this and read it because they only talk about Dr. Martin Luther King, God rest his soul and Rosa Parks, and then four other people. She said it was important to me to learn everything we use that was invented by blacks, but I didn't know it left an imprint. I just gave her the information. Glenda's motivation to teach your kids this history wasn't because it isn't taught in us. It was because that's what we are taught when we were in Costa Rica. You're supposed to teach your kids. She said Glenda was born and raised in Porto la. I knew that I had to pass on to her these beautiful stories that were given to me, and I had all these books to give to them. So that's why I taught her, because as a parent, it was important to me for her to know about her heritage and her culture. She said, Glenda said the history of black people in Costa Rica, including how they built the railroad there was talked about at home by her family. When they got together, they didn't talk to you like nonsense. She. Talks about your grandparents, your great-grandma. I have three different very old grandparents and an aunt that founded English schools in the Lamone Center. And my mom, she used to love history. I heard about the Titanic when I was a little girl in Costa Rica, poor to LA talking about the Titanic because she used to have old books in the house. Glenda said she started out as an educator herself in Costa Rica and is currently a teacher at PS 46 and a Sunday school teacher at a Methodist church in the Bronx. So, um, besides people in history, were there any other parts of black history that like you felt were your favorite or very prominent that were left out? Yes. So I remember when I was younger, I would say around 12 years old, I was watching a documentary about Jack Johnson. Mm-hmm.. So he was the first black, undefeated heavyweight in the early 19 hundreds. Okay. And during that time, you. Um, there was lynching, there was segregation. Mm-hmm.. So what I liked about his story was that he was able to travel to different places to fight mm-hmm.. And he was just very fearless and he was able to have access to places and things and, and. go ride around in luxurious places because of his status as a, um, as a boxer. Um, but I think what I found was interesting was that a lot of the white prominent boxers at the time didn't want to fight him because he was, you know, a black boxer and they felt like he wasn't valuable. Like, I don't need to fight this person. And what he would do was go to different games that they. um, fighting other people. Mm-hmm. and challenge them like, no, you're gonna fight me like I'm here., , I'm a champion. So in order for you to maintain like your status, you have to fight me. Mm-hmm., because I'm undefeated. I like that despite everything that was going on around him., he was able to do what he wanted to do. Mm-hmm., which was to fight passionately and not allow what people were saying. People were calling him, you know, derogatory names. Mm-hmm., he wasn't allowing that to stop what he was doing and to become successful. So I like that. Yeah. I like that he was able to, again, travel where mm-hmm., uh, um, a citizen at that time, a Black American mm-hmm. could not do the things that he was doing. Yeah. So how do you. Knowing his story at a young age has impacted you. Um, it made me feel that no matter what is happening around you, like we're, we've come from a history where we're very resilient. Mm-hmm., um, again, that was a time where, It was segregation, you know, you couldn't go to certain places. Mm-hmm., they didn't want you to be around certain people. He specifically, I remember married two white women. Mm-hmm., and they were outraged about that. And he just, he just walked and led with like confidence. Mm-hmm. and despite what his environment was telling him he should be mm-hmm. or what he should look like. So I think it kind of taught me that again, no matter what is happening mm-hmm. around. Uh, systemic oppression or laws that may be more challenging. Mm-hmm. for me to get access to things, I can still be successful. Right. So it makes me think a lot. Just how in general, like representation's really important. Were there any other topics you touch on? Um, yeah, I really liked hearing about, well, reading about the slave rebellions because, um, as we know, like in schools, probably you as well mm-hmm.. when they touch on like black history. Mm-hmm., they just touch on slavery. Right. And they don't touch on the slaves that actually rebelled. And I feel like it's kind of. Psychological in a way because they, I, this is as my opinion, sometimes I feel like they want black people to feel like, oh, well you just came from, from this. Mm-hmm., you know, you just came from shackles. You just came from being whipped, so this is what your history is. Then it's not accurate. Mm-hmm., instead of hearing stories about, no, we rebelled, we did not want this. You know, we didn't, we didn't want to stay in this. We wanted to be reconnected with our families. Right. So one rebell. that stood out to me was the Stoner Rebellion. And it happened in the early 17 hundreds. Mm-hmm., and it was in South, um, Carolina, I believe. Mm-hmm.. And what they did was they gathered together, um, I believe one of them killed their master, and they made it a point to. going to the city to say like, we're not doing this anymore. Mm-hmm. and whoever got in their way, they killed. Mm-hmm. and the group of slaves that were part of this rebellion were actually warriors. Mm-hmm. from a part of Africa, which the slave owners didn't know. Mm-hmm.. So I just thought that was so cool. Like you have a enslaved people who were once warriors and now they're able to, that's definitely not rebel . Yeah. That's definitely not something I've ever learned about. Yeah. But it's interesting because I think I remember like when learning about slavery, it did feel like something was missing. Yes. And.. I mean, again, this is coming as like an opinion, like it seems strategic. Mm-hmm. that that's a huge part of history that was like left out. Exactly. Um, yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. After hearing about slave rebellions for the first time from Terran, I knew I had to learn more. I started my research with the Stoner Rebellion. A P B S article states that on the morning of September 9th, 1739, about 20 slaves gathered near the Stoner River in St. Paul's parish. They went to a shop where they armed themselves with firearms and ammunition and killed the two shopkeepers. From there, they went to the house of a planter and killed him and his two children. When they reached Wallace's Tavern, they did not kill the Inkeeper as he was kind to the slaves by nighttime, their group neared 100 people and they carried banners down the road That said Liberty as they shouted the same word. Some slaves willingly join the rebellion while others belonging to Thomas Rose hid their master, but were forced to join the rebellion. Somewhere from 20 to 100 armed white people approached the slaves and shot and killed about 30 of them, and at least 30 slaves. Most were captured and executed within the next month. One slave remained a fugitive for three years. I just remember a story even when I was in, remember I told you I went to like an all white middle school in, yeah, in St. Barnabas and Yonkers . Every time they touched on slavery, I wanted to like hide because literally everyone will turn around like they're talking about you and your ancestors. I was gonna ask about that, the difference. It was terrible and I think that contributed to me hat. History. Mm-hmm., because again, it highlighted you were a beaten, you were a shackled. Mm-hmm. didn't highlight the rebellions. Like, I feel like history, anything you're taught I feel like should be balanced. Mm-hmm., yes. Slavery is very important to acknowledge. Mm-hmm. in this country, but also acknowledge, like you were saying, black people were on this earth prior to slavery and living and kings and queens in different countries. Mm-hmm. and also acknowledge the rebellions. Mm-hmm., I just think., it's important to highlight both. Yeah. So did you ever feel like when there were topics touched on in black history when you went to an all white school versus your other school, like, were there different conversations going on? Were, did people say different things or treat you differently? Like, um, I don't think they , I don't know if they treated me differently, but I felt a urge of like sympathy. Like, Aw, like this happened to you and it made me. Terrible because there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable, but it made me feel like this, only this terrible thing in history only happened to you as opposed to highlighting like different things. Like for example, when the Irish came over here after the potato famine, they were in ghettos. Mm-hmm., they were living in very like, unsanitary areas because they had to adjust to living going from farmland. Mm-hmm. to a very rural area, to living in an urban area. Mm-hmm., where you're living on top of each other, where there's infestation, where you have to live in factories, well work in factories. And you don't hear about that in history. And I think when you hear about, oh, there are different cultures that were also not treated fairly. Mm-hmm. because of their accent. Mm-hmm., or because of where they came from. You. I feel like you have an appreciation. Black people are the only people that were suffering in this world. Right. Yeah. And it, it makes me feel like it, like to your question, like, like, oh, like this is what happened to you. Yeah. It's like, well, it hap there's other things that happen in other cultures. Right, right. And then as a child, it just made me feel. not bad for being black, but made me feel like I was alone. Mm-hmm. in sharing the struggle in history. Right? Yeah. You know, like literally people will turn around and look at me when they, oh my gosh. You know, when they talk about whips and change and I just felt like, oh my God. Also, another thing, and we can go on a, I don't wanna go on a tangent. That's right. But even like in the workplace when mm-hmm. they're touching on certain topics., it's frustrating feeling like you have to be the voice of all black people. Mm-hmm.. Cause like, I'm not, I don't think the same as someone else. Mm-hmm., that's a black woman walking down the street. And I think that part was frustrating. Mm-hmm. as a student, even like working in corporate, Glenda spoke of a very different experience growing up in Costa Rica. I don't really know if I knew what color I was because it was so, she paused for a. We were so free as one unit. We knew who we were. We weren't told what we are. So I think that's big. We are a connected space for other customs, so discrimination was never an issue she said. Glenda told me she came from a city of a mixture of cultures. You have your Spanish friends, you have your black friends. We cooked totally different every day. The Spanish cooked their white rice and their red beans. We, the black people, we cooked different like rice and peas with coconut. We didn't look at each other and say, you are black or you are Spanish. We just knew you're different. I'm different. We are Costa Ricans. There is no pointing fingers. This is very different from what I remember when growing up and how my classmates treated people of culture is different than their own In America, different is often talked about as bad. She said that parents in Che La love their culture, how we're raised and values put into us is proud. Blacks that brought a lot of wealth and sweat to Costa Rica, she also added, we've got kind of a pride that makes you internalized because it's not what you are. It's the feelings that they leave you with. There was so much love by parents. There was so much love when you'd go to the church. Glenda moved to New York when she married Tara's father, Terry Crawford. When I came here, I got a little culture shock because people misunderstand when you're speaking Spanish, oh, you're Spanish. She said they would say, so I was confused. I was like, why are you calling me Spanish? My people, my grandmother, my parents, everything is black. So it was a little confus. She said she thinks the way we learn about the history of various cultures in the US can definitely contribute to how Americans treat people of those backgrounds. I know something we had talked about was the fact that like black history is taught separately from American history. Yes. To the point where there's black history courses in college because it's all this information that's not taught, which I will get in depth on that because not everybody can go to college. But anyway, um, what do you think of that?, I'm curious about like if you noticed that when you were younger as well. Yes, I noticed that. I feel, I would feel from an early age, maybe from middle school, that they, they teach black history as very isolated from American history or that it happened over here in this corner. Mm-hmm., and then the war has happened here. instead of talking about it in tandem with one another. Mm-hmm., like for example, they were black soldiers that fought in World War, world War ii. Mm-hmm., and they don't speak about that. Mm-hmm. and I even learned recently that the slaves that were able to escape, um, to Mexico. So a lot of slaves that were in the south traveled to Mexico to fight for their freedom. Mm-hmm. at that time, a lot of the enslaved, where now they were free, turned into cowboys, which I know we're, we're gonna talk about. Yeah. We just got into it. and, cause they were. Skilled. Mm-hmm., some of them were used to fight in the war. Mm-hmm.. And it's like, again, you don't, you don't hear about that at all. Yeah. You just hear about, you know, white soldiers or American soldiers. Yeah. In quotes, fighting without., um, acknowledging that there were black soldiers mm-hmm. or previously enslaved people that were fighting with these mm-hmm. American soldiers, you know? Yeah. I didn't even actually know, and it's, it's, I don't know, and it's so much I didn't know, or I didn't ever think about it. It was just never like presented that Okay, there were black soldiers. Yes. Until I did an internship like, two years ago, and I had to watch war footage. Mm-hmm. and there were black soldiers talking about this whole issue between black and white soldiers there. And I was like, it opened up. I'm like, there's this whole other mm-hmm. issues going on, like within the military that are literally never talked about. Yes. Um, so yeah, it's definitely interesting to see. I think even with slavery, they, even with that, teach it as they're, okay, well now separate today we're gonna talk about slavery. But there were slaves Exactly. Inventing things. Yeah. And there were slaves that, you know, , they were banned from speaking their own language. They didn't want them to communicate with them, but there were slaves that were concocting rebellions and plans with their own people in, in their own language cuz they wanted to escape. Mm-hmm.. And it's like, you don't hear about that. Mm-hmm. and I would've loved to hear more about mm-hmm., those type of stories growing up. Right. Like we didn't, it's, we weren't complacent in that. Yeah. And I think that's, even to that point, that's goes into something that's important for people to know. Mm-hmm. like as a society about how people. were resilient during those times? Yes. Or maybe like psychological things that went on. Oh, for like control, like Yes. Those are all very important things. I heard all the time growing up. Um, we have to learn history, so history doesn't repeat itself. Mm-hmm., um, so it's like, Okay. Either we're not being taught this so it can be repeated or it's like, how are we actually supposed to do that? Or how are we supposed to know how to get through things in the future if we're not learning about, like a huge part of that went into slavery. Yeah. And I remember by high school, I was like, if I learn about the industrial revolution, Yes. Like one more time. Like I remember every year it's like we'd open up the textbook and it would say like industrial, and I'm like, I. Like, I don't know, buildings were built. I don't really, and it's still like everything I think we're talking about today is far more interesting. Mm-hmm.. Um, so it's not like, it was not worth talking about even when I remember learning about like the Great Depression. Mm-hmm., revolutionary War and it's just like, can we speak about other things? Yeah. And that was another thing I noticed. Like, for example, the suffrage movement. Mm-hmm., um, there.. There were also black abolitionists and leaders that were also fighting. Good. Yeah. So going back to it being isolated, like you had these white women fighting for the right to vote, right. Even though black people could not, but then you also had black leaders, men at the time who could, who were also alongside them fighting for their rights. Right. And it's like, we don't hear about that. Yeah. Like how did that affect you, I guess, in like a bigger perspective of just like your identity as a black person? Like how did that feel? Like, did you feel like you were being treated as separate from like this mass group of people or like, did that, you know, how did that affect you? I guess that's interesting question because I think because my, um, I, to be honest, I think because I'm a first generation American, I think because the way my parents taught me about black excellence and everything mm-hmm. any like outside information or any limited information. Heard about black history didn't really affect me because mm-hmm., my parents ingrained in us at a young age that like, black people are resilient, we're kings and queens. Mm-hmm., look what we've done, you know, in terms of inventions. So personally it didn't affect me because I, I was aware of my history Yeah. And where I came from, but, , it was frustrating as a student. Mm-hmm. being a person that loves to learn. Mm-hmm., I hated history in school. Yeah. Because I did not understand why they weren't teaching black history in, in such like a vast matter mm-hmm., it's very limited. Right. Right. So that, that part as a student frustrated me. Yeah. But I don't think it affected me as a black person. Mm-hmm., because I., I knew what black people were capable of. Right. I didn't need a teacher to tell me that. Yeah. Right. And, and I think that's the unfortunate part about even what I see with my peers or people that don't know this history. Mm-hmm. they're letting the school teach them, well this is your history. Right. This is where you came from. This is what you be mm-hmm. instead of learning it on their own. Yeah. Which is really unfortunate because, I mean, we go to school up until 12th grade and that is where we should be getting that information. Right? Yes. And I.. Um, yeah, I just feel like we just learn about the same things over and over and there's like all that time that could be filled with other information, but we shouldn't have to depend on when there's a whole system put in place. Like I should have to depend on learn sourcing that outside of school. Carolyn's father Terry grew up in both Harlem with his mother and in Costa Rica with his grandparents traveling back and forth during certain. He did two years of high school in Harlem before finishing high school in Costa Rica regarding his time in the US He said when they tell you things in school that wasn't so, the way we found out that wasn't so was on the street, not in school. Terry told me a story about when he was 12 years old, walking to go play basketball with a friend, a black author who he did not remember the name of, stopped them outside of a tiny bookstore on a hundred and ninth Street in Central Park. He asked them, are you rich or are you poor? Terry looked at his friend and his friend looked at him and said they were poor. He said, no, you're rich. And then he starts telling us about the history of blacks from Africa, the Fairers, the kings of Africa. When the Europeans used to go there, they used to give them everything. That guy was telling us all that, and that's how the white people started to move down there in bunches, especially in the 18 hundreds, the black people were so generous. They took advantage of that culture until they took over. He told us all. What I'm telling you is in books, it's nothing. You can't go look up. It's just that I had the opportunity to meet those people that tell you stuff. When I asked Terry if there was a particular history that occurred in New York specifically that wasn't taught about in school, he brought up the Cotton Club. This famous Harlem nightclub had a whites only rule. White people would pay for entertainment and black musicians who performed there had to enter through a back. These performers included Ella Fitzgerald and Billy Holiday. I never experienced that. Terry said all that I learned on the streets of Harlem. When Terry said that, it made me think of the time I watched the 1999 film introducing Dorothy Dandridge as a teenager with my mom. That was my first memory of learning that black performers could only go through the service entrance of the venues they performed at. We believe we're inferior just by the teaching in school, and that isn't. In Costa Rica, morality, there's no such thing as superior or inferior. You help the one you see is lower. Terry said the racism stuff. My kids see it the same way I see it. They don't feel they are superior or inferior to anyone in Costa Rica. He said The elders don't tell you anything. They show you by example. After speaking with him, Glenda and Taran, I understood this as a theme in their family. Glenda said her kids would perform at a community nonprofit in the Bronx where black people were awarded and her kids were exposed to black people in all different positions. Caroline was able to see what she was not told in school. I asked Terry why it's so important to learn the correct events in history. We know what night is because of day. If you didn't have day, you wouldn't know what night is. When you go to school, you have to learn what they're telling you, and then you have to take what you learn and go out on the street and see if it. And when you know the truth, you know how to behave properly, you know what to say or how to say it. He said it's very difficult to transform what you learn in school into a belief that is not so. So I wanna talk then about, um, black cowboys. Yes. Which you brought up before. So, . I'm curious, um, when and how you learned about this. Yeah, so I'm someone, I love going to museums. Like whenever I'm going on a trip I have to schedule mm-hmm. some type of museum tour in that trip wherever I'm going. So I think I was in Philadelphia. Mm-hmm. and they had a museum just about black history and then different, um, people from black hi from history and. I stumbled upon a picture of like black cowboys. Mm-hmm.. And I was just in awe because I've, I've never seen that, never read about it on tv. When you see westerns mm-hmm., you just see, you know, white cowboys. Right. And when I was reading about it, even the term cowboy, which I didn't know until like recently, was. F a term used for black ranchers. Mm-hmm.. So going back to what I was saying, the slaves that escaped to Mexico, because that's when Mexico was free at the time. Yeah. They turned to being a cowboy because. that that was part of like skilled labor. Mm-hmm.. And they wanted the black people to become cowboys because they knew they were strong, they knew they can handle certain skilled work. Mm-hmm.. So just learning about that, I was just like in awe. And I learned that one in four cowboys were actually black in American. You say? I looked that up too, and I was like shocked. Yeah, because it's insane., even like in textbooks and in history, it's like seeing pictures. Yes. I've never seen a picture of black Cowboy, especially enter entertainers. Yeah. And it's, there should be like, I mean, I know that part of like creating films, there's researchers and all of that, so it just makes me wonder like how it never makes it in there, you know? And like where, cause I guess obviously you first saw this from like a museum. Yes. Um, but yeah, it's, it's very interesting and like even what I found interesting, even. the term boy was a very derogatory word back in slavery time because it was what slave owners called black men. Mm-hmm. to say like, you're, you're nothing. You're a boy. Mm-hmm. like, you're not a real man. So it's interesting to see how they transformed even the word itself. Yeah. Cowboy to a white man, , right. Riding a horse. And I always thought that was so interesting. because like the meaning of the word is literally black furniture. Yeah. Right. That's interesting. Yeah. And so I know that on your podcast too, you talked about, like you said, uh, you had to start to, I think like consciously not think of American history through a white lens. Mm-hmm.. So can you talk about that too? Yeah. So I think even though I had the history for my parents mm-hmm., I think sometimes growing up in school you're conditioned to. When you're taking tests, you know, everything's like memorization. Mm-hmm., you're conditioned to then adopting what you learn in class. So I felt like growing up I envisioned American, like an American person as like this white man. Mm-hmm.. , white hair, blue eyes. And I didn't realize it until I went to college and I was like, wow. Was conditioned to think like, that's an American, right. Even it, it was even personally when I used to travel to other countries mm-hmm. and, you know, you have to fill out a form or something when you're going through customs and I'm like, I'm an American because I never Oh, yeah. Yeah. I never, I just, I would just say I'm, I'm black, my parents are from Costa Rica. I'm Costa Rican, but I never thought of y You are an American, you're, you were born here. Born in the United States. Right. And I think it's because of, and sorry, when was that? The conditioning? Um, I think it was like my early twenties. Okay. When I was traveling and I was like, oh. Like I'm, yes, I'm American . Yeah. But I think just even like you talking about the term American, because it's like, okay, there's, we always learn the terms Americans, African Americans, native Americans. Yes. So it's the way, you know, it's like the separation. Yes. Because how would you not feel separated? That's how there was, we were separated into those three categories of people. and that's how like, you know, when we were learning that in school. That's a great point. Cause I didn't even think about the distinction. Mm-hmm.. Yes. African American, native American and that's, that's very true. Mm-hmm. and even, I, I don't even like the term African American. Mm-hmm.. I just like to say black cuz cuz I feel personally black is just universal. Mm-hmm. there black people everywhere. Right? So I, African-American kind of feels like limited, right? Mm-hmm., I pop other black people may feel differently, but I just feel like Right. It doesn't makes you feel like you're not part. F this world we're all living in. So when exactly did you learn about the Black Cowboys again? Oh, I learned about the Black Cowboys when? After college. Okay. So I would say when I was like 23, 24. Okay. And then me realizing that I was an American was probably my early twenties. You're having a lot your twentie life. Um, yeah. It was, it was weird. So I do still have moments like that because, I mean, I guess I was gonna ask like what the. Learning about black cowboys, is that something that contributed then to you furthering that like stopping thing of history through white lands? Yes. Like if your cowboys are one more thing. Exactly. So yes, it definitely made me think of, um, American, what we were taught in American history. Mm-hmm.. Yes. And it kind of made me pull down those layers of, it's not just you. White people weren't only the people that made an impact in history, and it made me, it made me question a lot of things like what you were saying earlier, because going back to. what we see in movies and and maybe question everything. Yeah. So I was like, wow, this whole time there were black cowboys. This whole time there were black soldiers fighting in the war. Mm-hmm.. So you're like, what else is what? What else? When you know someone lies to you Exactly. And that, and you're like, what other lies are going on to your question? That I think learning about that prompted me to dig even more because I'm the type of person when I see a movie about something, I'm on Google two seconds later to fact check everything. Yeah. I'm like, wait, wait, there's more . Mm-hmm.. So I think just learning about black cowboys, Black inventors and right at, at an older age makes me wanna dig more into history in general. Yeah. And as someone who hated history in school, I hated, I only transitioned into someone who was like, is obsessed. Like hated it. So I wanna get into topics that I know we already touched on some like slavery, but yeah, topics and black history that were included. How did you feel that they were then misrepresented or even just getting into like tone or word choice? Mm-hmm.. Do you still feel like they were taught. specifically about like black, when they brought up black, black history? Yeah. Um, yes. Like for example with, um, I'm trying to think of like, there was wording with, for example, with like Rosa Parks, um, I felt like they just kind of highlighted she was tired. She sat there and then she refused her seat. Can you expand on that? You know, ? Yeah. Yeah. Was she afraid? Um, um, like I said on my own podcast, she was also part of a political movement. Mm-hmm., so did that touch on her wanting to refuse mm-hmm.? Did she want to be a, the face of this movement so they can demand more rights to have more funding for their movement? I don't know, but I would, I would, I would love to, for them to expand certain things. Mm-hmm., for example, even with. Martin Luther King, which I, I read more about him afterwards. It was just him and like he had a dream. Yeah. And yes, he wanted black and brown people and of, of, and white people too, to come together. But again, it's like, who is he as like a human? Yeah. Like they, I don't think they per, well, that's a lot with a lot of people in history, but. I feel like if you're gonna highlight black history, and I feel like they didn't really humanize or personalize mm-hmm. what they went through. Right. It was, was like, okay, he had a dream, he marched. Right. Like what? What was his family life like? Right. Did he always wanna be a leader? Was he pushed into it? Mm-hmm., did he have help from other political groups to get him where he was? Mm-hmm., like it was very limited. Right. Right. And you did also say on your podcast, For example, just with Christopher Columbus, which people are much more aware of acknowledging this, but we learned he discovered America, like the word discovered being put in there is a choice. Yeah. Um, it's not that he stole it. I learned in a black experience class too that there were already Africans living with Native Americans. Yes. Well, hello. Where's the whole other half of the story? Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, I think like word. There is interesting too. Yeah. I think to your point, I think they hide certain things cuz they want kind of, to your point, they want, they want to feel like, oh no, we, this is our country. Mm-hmm., like, we built this mm-hmm. instead of like, no, this guy stumbled upon a land that was someone else's mm-hmm.. So, and even going to like learning about wars, I feel like the. speaks, and the wording comes from a very like narcissistic point of view. Mm-hmm., it's like we are the best country in the world. Like we're the richest. We have all these resources and yes, we have a lot of opportunities here, but when you, when I was researching like Pearl Harbor and things of that nature, we as a country instigated a lot of those wars. Mm-hmm. and wanted to become a part of it, so, , therefore we can get the resources. Mm-hmm. that will come from the aftermath of war. Mm-hmm., and like, of course. Why would they wanna tell you that? Right. They, they don't wanna say, yeah, we sacrificed these bodies so we can become richer. Mm-hmm. as a capitalistic country. Right. They're never gonna tell you as a. Student that mm-hmm. because they want you to feel like you're in the best country in the world. Right., I mean, we started school every day doing the Pledge of Allegiance. Yeah. Right.. Now it seems really weird. I don't know if they still do that. I'm assuming they do, but Yeah, I don't, that's a good question. I don't know. Yeah. So I didn't know about the 15 year old who used to give up her seat Yes. Before the parks until I was in your podcast. So I'd looked her up. Um, Claudette Colvin. Yes. She's 15. Um, yeah, and I think I read that she. But I think this article was like maybe a few years ago that she lived in the Bronx. Oh, she still did? I'm not sure, but yeah. But she's still alive and kicking . Yeah. So she did an article with npr. Mm-hmm., and I'll read this and I wanna hear what you think. Um, so they said, when asked why she is a little known and why everyone thinks only of Rosa Parks, Colvin says the NAACP and all their black organizations felt parks would be a good icon because she was an adult. They didn't think teenagers would be reliable. Mm-hmm.. . So what do you think of that in terms of how to this day, we still then know Rosa Parks is the first person who did that. It makes me feel like politics and R race relations are very much intertwined. Mm-hmm., you know, because why not highlight? I feel like that's more powerful. 15 year old during that time when there's like lynchings. Mm-hmm. and segregation. She was. Um, she had the mindset to say, no, I'm gonna stand up for this, despite what the consequences could be. Mm-hmm., I feel like that's a more powerful story. Yeah. But to her point, what you read in the article, I think it's interesting that they, they highlight certain leaders in history that are affiliated with certain political movements. Right. I think that's, that again, makes me question more things like, right. Who else are we not hearing from that we're not affiliated with any Right. Left party. Right. You know what I'm. I left this interview thinking only of Claude Colvin and Rosa Parks as the people who refused to give up their seats on the bus. But a month later, I learned about Pauly Murray who did the same thing 15 years before them. This is when it finally clicked for me that there weren't just a few more people who had done this that I hadn't heard of. This was a movement that went on far longer than what was taught about in school. You'll learn more about Poll Murray next week in our episode about LGBTQ history. I feel like when I was in college, felt like I had the privilege to take a black history course because it's like I had the privilege to go to college mm-hmm., so I had access to education that other people don't. Mm-hmm. And it kind of makes me think like, what about all those other people of all races who don't learn about like their own history or other people's history because it's, it's like that education is so, I don't know the right word for it. Um, but it, I don't Yeah. It's like separated from like common knowledge, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I remember after. Like being so shocked by all this stuff that I learned and I was like, everything's a lie . Um, I would like tell people about it and something I would hear from white people was like, well, if that's a lie, then how do you know that's not a lie? Oh my God. And it's just, Interesting how then people will, I don't know if they're getting defensive because they don't want that to be the truth. Um, I, it's, I don't know, it's just interesting how people react to it, like when they're not opening up to that. So quick story about that. I have a friend who, he's like a YouTube junkie and he's really into like silver and Bitcoin and all that. And as me know, the comments on you two are . Yeah. So I forgot they were touching on something and there was a comment about how. learning about black inventors or like black history, that's a form of black supremacy. Oh my God. That was the comment. I was just like, am I reading correctly? And they're like, no, it's a lie. Like they just want. That they want to feel like a sense of pride. I'm just like, what? Like, it's like so flips backwards. It's like not, it's like, no, this is accurate history. It's, we're not flipping it to feel better about ourselves. Mm-hmm., like this is what actually happened. So comments like that, like confuse the hell out it. Right.. Yeah. I think it all comes down to like, I don't know, like I, I Google go on and on . Maybe I should just stop myself before we get into like a rabbit hole. Um, so this is kind of touching on the, what I wanted to ask you next. Yeah. Um, what you have always learned in black history throughout your life, how the knowledge you have about black history, how it's affected the way you see issues going on in society today, or interact with those issues or maybe decisions you've made. Um, that's a good question. I think it makes me approach different situations more objectively, because again, I'm not thinking., I just came from nothing or like mm-hmm., you know what I mean? Like, I was just shackled and beaten and that's, that's my, like, legacy. It's not so, I, it makes me feel that despite, again, what's going on in the world, like I'm still able to be successful. Mm-hmm., like I'm, despite everything going on, I can achieve things that I wanna achieve. Mm-hmm.. And then once I see things like protest with the whole George Floyd mm-hmm. situation and blm, it makes. feel like this is not so abnormal. Mm-hmm. like this has been happening throughout history, not just from black people, but from other people protesting as well. So it just, it just makes me look at things from a more objective level. Mm-hmm. as opposed to so emotional. Mm-hmm., because I think, as we know with politics, I think even what you were saying about key words, I think they play on race a lot. Mm-hmm. to divide people and they play on different things in politics. Mm-hmm. and I., once you know your history, once you., what other groups of people went through. Mm-hmm., you start to connect the certain dots. Mm-hmm. like, okay, what are they, what is it that they really want us to know? You know? Right. What, what is the true agenda? What is the true issue here? Right. Is it just about race or is it about politics? Mm-hmm., is it about power? So it just makes me look, look at things from like a different perspective. Right. So do you think. People of other races, if they understood black history more, that they would see issues going on in black community today differently than maybe you've seen They have. I think so. And I, and I think it would be more, um, I think they would have more of a appreciation to what we have contributed to the society. Mm-hmm.. Um, and I think unfortunately no media movie. Lack of education, it kind of conform, have you, it can create a distorted view of what you feel about a certain culture. Mm-hmm. or race. So I do think it's, you have to have the personal desire to want to learn more. Right. Or you're just gonna remain ignorant. But I do feel like if there were more books, Um, more classes. Mm-hmm., just more general education about black history. Mm-hmm., I think a lot of people will, you have to be open-minded, but I think they will have more of appreciation to like, wow, like I use this and this was created by a black person. Yeah. Or again, I think also just learning about your own history. Mm-hmm., um, kind of like what, what I was saying about the Irish immigrants, I think of a lot of people saw that, oh, we also went through a similar struggle. Mm-hmm. might not be the same struggle mm-hmm., but we both struggled as., our ancestors did immigrating to a new country. Mm-hmm., I think we will be more connected and not viewing one race Yeah. As like the staple of oppression. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm., because then I feel like, I feel like when you're, when you're, um, ingrained about something mm-hmm., unconsciously, you start believing it. Yeah. So it's like, okay, these are lower class people. unconsciously, you may start treating them a certain way. Yeah. You know? Right. Just because it's ingrained in you. Mm-hmm.. But I think as adults and I myself, I have to rewire and reprogram mm-hmm. what I feel and how I treat people. Yeah. Because I'm relearning history. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of more people should do that. Yeah. And it is like a conscious effort. And I think something that I noticed, um, during the George Floyd protest, I think. People always are trying to find a reason for why something's happening. Yes, and what I saw being around a lot of white people, they didn't know the reasons for why there has been this ongoing issue. Um, that drove me insane because I had coworkers like, oh, I feel so sorry for you. And I'm just like, what? Like, racism has been here for Yeah. Yeah. They're like, this didn't come outta the blue, like this has been happening. So do you feel like if you have kids, this is something that you'd want to instill in them? Absolutely. I'm probably gonna have to create a whole textbook myself about history as soon as I come out in the wheel and I'm learning my, I'll still be learning it myself. But yeah. And I always, I always say this to my, my other cohos Elise, that, um, as a child, I really want, um, as a black child, I, I really want you to know and appreciate like who you are as a person. Mm-hmm. and not. being black as a burden. Mm-hmm. or as a hindrance to, to, to being what you can be in on this earth. Right. Because I feel like through textbooks, through media, even through the protests, sometimes they make it seem like your color is the problem. Mm-hmm., it's just like, no, it's, it's all these other factors that are going on. Yeah. Someone never wanna teach my child that, like, woe was me. Like, the white man has you down, like mm-hmm., no. They just like in tandem with everything. Unfortunately. We're just, we're living in a country that's, laws are designed to benefit certain people. Yeah. Not just about race, about class. Mm-hmm., uh, if you're very powerful, no matter what race, you could just get away with certain things. Mm-hmm.. So I, I would ingrain in my children that, like, you are amazing, right? You come from a background of leaders, of innovators, you. come from black excellence. Mm-hmm., like that's your history. Your history is not just getting whipped and beaten to death. Mm-hmm. and, and just sitting there. So that's something I would really ingrain in my children. Mm-hmm. and I would want my, whoever my partner is to have that same perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Like really, I feel like I can't even emphasize enough, like when you say just like the pride of knowing what black people contributed to our country that Yeah. Is not really talked about at all. So what would you like to see then happen? I mean, I feel., I know based on the conversation, but what would you like specifically to see different in schools? Like do you have a vision of what, how American history could be taught different? Yeah, I would, I would, first of all, I would abolish Black History Month in schools. Like, no, it is not a month. This is the history. You know, like, and maybe not abolish it, but, but. frame it when we use words as a way as this is part of history and this is not something that you should forget after February's over. Mm-hmm.. These are things that are currently existing. Mm-hmm. based on black people in this country. So I would love, um, just more teachers, no matter what your background is, just talk about black, um, leaders and history as part of American history. Cuz it is Right. Even, even saying black history. Is contradictory. Right. Because it's history. Right. But I think just learning more about black people Right. In history and leaders and mm-hmm. impact and how impactful they were. That needs to be like a whole, I feel a whole semester. Mm-hmm., like it should be a whole textbook on that. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. And there's not, so if someone listens to this and decides like they wanna start learning Yes. About more history, like where would you suggest other people start? Um, I would suggest., um, different books about like black history, black people in history, like, um, Frederick Douglass or um, I, Google is like my best friend . I don't have like a specific resources. Yeah. But, um, I'm a, a huge, um, proponent of documentaries. Mm-hmm.. So I would just say like, starting with different, um, documentaries mm-hmm. um, that are not as linear, linear as what we see in like, Hulu, Netflix, you know what I mean? Right. And just kind of like, just do your, I would say just do your own research. Yeah. Like any, anything you want to know about, um, a particular part of history. I would just say Google it. Go go to your local library. Yeah. And just dig more than what is portrayed. Mm-hmm. on screen. Well, I think that's everything, but I had to bring up We definitely touched on a lot. We did. We did. We did. Thank you again. No, thank you. I love having conversations like this. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Reconsider Everything. If you enjoy the conversation today, subscribe for more episodes and leave a review. I'm your host, Marissa Nichol. All sound design is done by Tim Burdock. All original music was composed by Alex Joaquin. And Cover Art was created by Olivia Nickel. Continue your education on our social media handles and at the resource list in the description below. And join us every Tuesday for another episode. Uh uh, Marissa. Mm-hmm., you kind of did it, but maybe you. Just like a formal outro kind of thing? Oh yeah. No, just say like, um. Yeah. Thanks so much for your time and whatever. You guys riff . Okay. Now I'm like, there's so much your face like, okay, this will be my outro. Thank you so much for being here today. I think we talked about a lot of good stuff, like, this is sounding bad. Can we just do the Thank you for being here. Is that good? Yeah. Yeah.