The Uniquely Unifying Nature of LGBTQ History

The push for banning LGBTQ education has been spreading across American states. You may have heard about the "Don't Say Gay" Law in Florida and the book bans that are replicating in various states. But do you know why teaching LGBTQ history in schools is vital?  Debra Fowler, co-founder of the nonprofit History UnErased, has been working to create a more accurate reflection of history in K-12 schools across the nation with life-affirming, life-changing, and life-saving LGBTQ US history curriculum. Listen to Debra speak about how that curriculum has changed students' lives, how students are starving for this type of education, and the damage these bills and bans have been doing to the LGBTQ community and all students. Continue your LGBTQ education with our resource list: https://linktr.ee/episode3resources and follow us on social media: 
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. She said, I have learned so much, so glad I came and I'm leaving with my mind changed. And that's, I think, that little quote. Mm-hmm., nobody knows what this is supposed to look like. Mm-hmm.. So imaginations run wild. That's what we're seeing all over with these egregious bills that are circulating in state legislatures. Welcome to Reconsider Everything, a podcast that dives into the impact of how American history is and isn't taught in the us. The lack of multicultural history taught in schools has been brought up more and more the past few years in mainstream conversations. What have you ever thought about what that means for those whose history has not been told or celebrated for centuries this season, every week, you will hear stories from people of various backgrounds who answer that question and gain insight from those working in education. I'm your host, Marissa Nichol, and this is just the beginning of what I call the American History Project. Hopefully, you'll learn a lot of new history that will make you reconsider everything you know and the empathy you have for the people around you. For this episode, I spoke with Deborah Fowler about the importance of learning L G B T Q history that is left out of our education system. I met up with Deborah in May of this year near Lowell, Massachusetts, where she lives and runs an education nonprofit called History Unraced. The organization founded in 2015 by Deborah and Miriam Morgan Stern provides K through 12 schools in the US with L G B T Q inclusive history content. They can easily fit into lesson plans. Their curriculum that is anchored in primary sources and designed for differently abled learners includes case studies, videos, podcasts, interactive games, and instructional posters that move the lens away from victimization and into the lens of empowerment. Going into this podcast season, I was feeling extremely negative about how minorities are constantly failed by our country and education system. But I left my time with Deborah feeling extremely hopeful about the individuals who have dedicated their career. And lives to chipping away at the negativity and filling moments in a classroom with positivity. Sometimes issues in our country can seem so overwhelming because there is so much work we need to do, but Deborah opened my eyes to the fact that one person impacting one student during one class can create a beautiful ripple effect for our country's future. And at a time when there is heightened fear of L G B T Q issues circulating the media, Deborah has witnessed what happens when knowledge turns fear into understanding. That's what this podcast is all about, that shift in perspective, and I hope you walk away from this episode with that feeling. Thank you for being here. I'm really excited. Um, I think that there's a. that I'm excited to hear you say about this topic. Um, so do you wanna just start by explaining what History Unraced is and what you do? Sure. And thank you so much for having me. History Unraced is an education nonprofit, the first and only organization of its kind. We are entirely dedicated to providing K to 12 schools with the curriculum and the training and the ongoing support to teach LGBTQ inclusive, intersectional, mm-hmm., uh, history and academic content. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. And so I think last time we spoke, you said it was in like 2,500 plus schools now in every New York City, K through 12 public school. That's correct. Um, can you give us an idea. where this curriculum is happening as far as in states, like, I know you mentioned they're kind of spread out, or is it like a lot of the states, like on the east side of the country? So the predominance of our work is with New York City public schools. Mm-hmm. but we're also working with large districts in Montgomery County, in Maryland, uh, red Clay District in Delaware. We are in individual schools, uh, in 13 different states now. Uh, we just yesterday, uh, secured a contract with. a district in Oregon. Okay, cool. So it's mostly, it's on the east coast. Yeah. Um, but, but slowly but surely we're getting into other mm-hmm. pockets in other areas. Yeah. That's exciting. Yes. But it's getting into other areas and I know like when we spoke to you on the phone, you said you had like some contracts kind of like coming up, so that's good that they're getting solidified. It's a slow process. Yeah., I'm sure. Yeah. So I definitely wanna get into like your background first and how this organization came about. So I saw you were in the military, you taught English in South Korea, right? Yes. And then you taught English at Lowell High School. Was it? How long were you there teaching English? So, at Lowell High School I was there for a decade. Okay. Um, working within the ELL department, uh, working with new immigrant and refugee student. and I taught an array of different courses mm-hmm. within that department. So sometimes I would have my students for their entire high school career, academic career. Oh wow. Yeah. So those relationships became very close oftentimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, and so can you tell me about your experience, what you did with the military? Yes. So I will, I will share the unfiltered version.. So I dropped out of college, uh, back in 1986 and it had to do with kind of myself coming to terms with being gay and really not seeing a place for myself in the world. And, um, Wound up in Louis, Delaware, uh, in a relationship, and then short relationship, and then wound up homeless. And being homeless in Louis, Delaware is not that bad. was the beach, the park. Um, but I heard during that period of time that if you went to the recruiting station down the road, that you would be given dinner, a hotel night, um, and breakfast. And I said, sign me up. And so I had been in RO O T C in college, so Okay. It wasn't really a stretch , so I went and went through that process and enlisted in the Army. Okay. And, um, went, I was, went through Fort Jackson. Um, basic training in South Carolina and then at the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio in San Francisco. I was being trained as a Korean linguist, and so almost all the way through the cycle, uh, close to graduation, um, I was pulled out of class and taken up to our company commander's office and, um, we needed a top secret security clearance because we had all received orders to report to the dmz. Uh, second ID the border between North and South Korea. And so the company commander handed me this report and it said that I was, that I tell cocaine, Which I didn't at that point in my life. Mm-hmm., I didn't know if cocaine was pink or green, if you drank it, or I had no idea, uh, that I was an alcoholic and that was the furthest thing from the truth and that I was a homosexual. Hmm. On one of the entrance forms in joining back in the eighties, there was a question, are you a homosexual? And I had checked, no, but this was, I knew it was a lie, , but I didn't think it was a big deal. So I said to my company Commander, none of this is true. So a few days later, I don't know the timeframe, I was pulled outta class again, taken to the main Presidio campus, and I was interviewed by a someone in cis, uh, not a military person. He was in civilian clothes, just one individual. And he, I took a lie detector test and. Did not pass. He kept going behind this door saying he was consulting with his analyst. Mm-hmm.. So he went back and he said, oh yeah, this was not true. And I said, the only thing I could think of at the time, I said, well, it was just once. And so then they asked for a writing sample of, to describe once my goodness. And I was furious. I was raging. Yeah. And I wrote three pages of absolute bullshit. And I was told that everything I had written was confidential. So at any rate, um, I was told by the company commander that I would be allowed to graduate. Mm-hmm., because they had, and I'm not saying this, like Oh, good job, duh. But, um, they had already determined I'd be receiving two awards at the graduation ceremony. Mm-hmm.. So I was allowed to graduate and then I. discharged mm-hmm. From the Army under fraudulent entry. Oh my gosh. So at that time, like what would've happened if you checked Yes. The box Yes. That you were homosexual then you wouldn't have been allowed in. I would've been disqualified. Yeah. Hmm. I can't believe that that was like, the process for that. Like, I feel like, um, I even forgot that there was a time Yeah. Where that happened, but also I have never heard it like in depth, like the process of that in 1988, AIDS crisis is heightened. Mm-hmm. military policy about an using air quote, homosexuals and military service mm-hmm. was getting even more restrictive. And the, that period of time is the, the birth of that came from mm-hmm.. , the domestic anti-communism efforts, the Red Scare in the fifties. Mm-hmm., late forties, fifties, where the Lavender scare was so closely intertwined. Mm-hmm., the Red scare lasted as short four years or so, but the Lavender Scare persisted and ousting, it was a, a witch hunt oust. Mm-hmm., gay and lesbian people from the federal government. Mm-hmm. And that included military service. The executive order President Dwight d Eisenhower, signed to investigate, interrogate, and systemically removed gay men and lesbians from the federal government in 1953 became known as the Lavender Scare in an article with Time Magazine that I will link below, historian David K. Johnson said this policy was based on the unfounded fear that gay men and lesbians posed a threat to national security because they were vulnerable to blackmail and were considered to have weak moral character. And that is an aspect of American history that has been largely overlooked. This was similar to the Red Scare in the early 1950s that Deborah referenced which targeted, alleged subversive communists working in the federal government. Johnson said that American students learning about the Red Scare without learning about the lavender scare means they're only hearing part of the story, and that it conflated gay people with communist and alleged that they could not be trusted with government secrets as well as labeled them as security risks, even though there was no evidence to prove this. He estimates somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people lost their jobs due to the lavender scare. Although it is difficult to know the true number of people it affected. Do you know other people who went through the same experience that you went through?. I did not share the full scope of the story with anyone until I met Vince and Gianni and I did an at, at the time I was, um, producing a documentary film through gay Eyes and fundraising on Kickstarter, and I saw another project by Vince. He was doing a project with, um, veterans and military service people who had been kicked out mm-hmm. for being gay or lesbian, whatever. Mm-hmm. and his project was fully funded and I said, oh my gosh, this is such a great project. Thank you for doing this work. I said, I also have a story that connects to this, but just wanted you to know I appreciate it. So we ended up connecting and he came to Lowell and did an interview and that was the first time. Oh, wow. Okay. Shared it. And I think in part because, oh my God, there's so many others. Mm-hmm. that I never. No. So do you know where the drugs and alcohol thing came from too? They interviewed so many people from my past, and this one particular individual shared all of this bullshit. Okay, gotcha. With clearly the intent Yeah. Of getting me kicked out. So did, were they doing all of this, like reaching out to people from your past before you even knew that they were doing that and then they just kind of gave you this information? No, I didn't. Yeah. I mean, we knew going to the Defense Language Institute, going through this program that ultimately we would need a top secret security clearance. Right. If we made it through. But I really, I was young. Yeah. I knew. Do what that meant. Yeah. And that little question on the form. evaporated. Mm-hmm., I mean, we were so singularly focused on getting through the program . Right. It's pretty intense. Yeah. So then wasn't it 1993 when it was the Don't ask, don't tell Bill, but then even at that time, cause I know they like repealed it then in 2011, cuz wasn't it still, you wouldn't be asked. It was ridiculous if you were gay, but you still couldn't be open about it. It was ridiculous. I mean, our, we have a, a case study that looks at Perry Watkins and he, in 1968, checked the box. Yes. So it's African American man. Mm-hmm., he thought for sure that he would be going back to Germany to continue in studying dance. But he was drafted anyway. He spent 16 years in the military and. The indiscriminate nature of enforcing that policy and not is just, it kind of makes your brain cram when we try to process it. But, but connecting that and thinking about how this policy, whether it's don't ask, don't tell, or the other military policy that continue to shape and, um, reform throughout the years, you know, it's really up to individual leaders if they're going to enforce that. Mm-hmm. and it's, I don't know. Yeah. It's really frustrating when you're looking at anything that has, well, it's like, I guess loopholes or just, it's not black and white. Like, I feel like there's racial issues that seep into like, everything, like when something's gonna be enforced or not enforced. And I think that's also something that isn't always, I think just people aren't really like, aware of it. Which is also like another reason why I'm doing this podcast cuz it's just, there's so many like, Specific issues, I feel like where that happens that you don't really think about unless you maybe know somebody or if it's happened to you. So yeah, for sure. I mean, I never even was aware of that until you just told me, but even, I'm trying to think of like, I don't even know if we really even covered a lot about that with the military and school at all, which is interesting, but I also make sense why it wouldn't be covered, um, which is why you do what you do today, But um, so then after that, that's when you went to South Korea? Well, actually I stayed in California and went back to school and changed my major multiple times, but also I met some Korean friends and so I, I really wanted to use the language that the Army had given me. I felt the responsibility for that. Mm-hmm.. Felt like a gift. And so I connected, made some Korean friends and we would exchange English for Korean lessons. And I moved to Anaheim area and then to San Diego. And it was some friends in San Diego, Korean friends that I met in Japanese class, interestingly, who said, oh, you should go to Korea and teach. And I said, I don't know how to teach. They said, well, what are you doing right now?, . So I went to Japan in 2001 to run a marathon there and met some expats and we're talking with them about their teaching experience. And I thought, you know what? Now's the time. So I sold almost everything. I had bought a one-way ticket, found a teaching job first in Busan at a a Hagan, which is a young English academy. I have all different types of, of hog ones. So I started teaching there and discovered that I love it. Mm-hmm., and then moved to a small rural community in the outskirts of Olson and started working on my master's degree. Okay. And so I got a master's in teaching while I was mm-hmm. teaching in South Korea. And then I came back and taught at Lowell High School. That's scary to think about. Just selling everything and going for it, but that's awesome. And then you found what you loved. Yes. Yeah. So that awful experience in the military and not all of it was awful. I loved it. I loved being a soldier. Mm-hmm.. But that experience ultimately led to teaching and then ultimately to founding history and race. Mm-hmm. and having a deep connection to the history. After many years, I, I came to the understanding that I didn't have the opportunity to serve. our country in uniform. Mm-hmm.. But I did feel like I was serving our country as a boots on the ground in the trenches. Classroom teacher. Mm-hmm.. How so? Can you expand on that a little more? Because I firmly believe a nation begins in the classroom with what we teach our children. Mm-hmm. about our shared history and about their place in the world and their capacity to contribute to the world. And without a healthy, robust education, everything else falls apart. Right. And can you tell me then about, um, how at Lowell were you taught there was a lot of refugee students? Yes, I love them. So many days I would leave thinking I have the best job in the world. Being able to interact with these young people every day. A lot of these students were coming from. War torn places, uh, refugee camps, students from Nepal, Congo, Burma, um, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, um, many, many different countries. And they arrived every day. Some of them from unspeakable grief with hope and energy and enthusiasm and a real zest for life. And almost immediately working with that population of students, they become a lifeline for their families. and by association teachers become a lifeline for the family. And so it really, it develops very close relationships. Mm-hmm. and I taught double period sessions. Mm. So, and so you said there could be people from 17 different places in one classroom, right? Yes. Yes. Which is really exciting. Mm-hmm., all of these different native languages, all of these different cultures, different belief systems. It was a beautiful place and a beautiful experience. So how did that shape you as a teacher and go into, you know, your teaching every day? Um, I came to see and really understand profoundly that. Helping my students build their English proficiency skills so that they could be successful. Mm-hmm. here, they needed content that was relatable. Mm-hmm. that they could really connect to, and so that's what I always tried to do to help them learn about each other's native countries and cultures. Deborah and Miriam were ready to bring a more inclusive education to more students across the country. In 2013, I asked her about how the idea for the nonprofit, specifically about L G B T Q curriculum came about. And she started by telling me about the 2011 documentary short film she produced called Hard Truth, levity, and Hope. This film introduces the lives of refugee teens who have settled in Lowell, Massachusetts as the birthplace of the American Industrial Revolution. Lowell has been a refuge for immigrants since its beginning. I don't know really when it began. Mm-hmm.. But with my students, I have to, the, the impetus to create the documentary Hard Truth, levity and Hope came from hearing like they were these young people were, every young person is aching to tell their story, aching to be heard in all manners and forms. They would try to share who they are and their story with me, whether it's written assignments or incidental conversations or planned conversations or grammar, homework, for example, when student it, it was a grammar lesson, and I had put a notation on the side of the paper. A student had referenced the fact that. Couldn't see his friend. We were working on modal, auxiliary vers. He couldn't see his friends anymore. So I just sort of know, why can't you see your friends anymore? And as I'm handing it back to him, I asked him and he said, because they were all killed. Miss other students were talking about years in a refugee camp with notebooks, no resources at all. I mean, just unbelievable stories. Students from Iraq who just suffered unspeakable horrors. And I felt like I had a responsibility to share these stories because so often you hear disparaging comments about how these populations of families are taking and they're not mm-hmm., they have so much to give, they're aching to contribute mm-hmm. and be woven into the fabric of American society and, and so sharing their stories. Mm-hmm.. Was an opportunity to illuminate the fact that these are beautiful human beings, the best of what humanity has to offer. And Yeah. And I'm sure it would help them if they saw more stories of people like them in curriculum where their representation was there. Like do you feel like that would've helped them if they saw more of a connection to who they were learning about? Absolutely. Oh, it's powerful stuff. Mm-hmm.. So then I worked with, in the production of that film, then junior student, Connor Crosby, who was in the film media and film department. And we spent a lot of time together in the editing booth booth as you two can certainly appreciate it, and Hard Tooth levity and hope the film. And then after that was released, Connor went off to college. He came back his first semester and he came to my classroom and he said, I have an idea for another film. And I wanna work with you on it. He said, I am tired of the continued discrimination against LGBTQ people, and I wanna do something about it. And I stood up and I gave him a hug, and I sat back down and I said, Connor, do you know that I'm gay?? And he didn't . And so ultimately the, the film through Gay Eyes is a series of interviews with students and teachers and parents and community members and hearing the, their voices over and over and over and over and over again. For example, a teacher saying that the absence of LGBTQ voices in the curriculum is doing harm to all students. A parent who said that she wished. Her sons didn't share the fact that they have two mothers in a manner in which they regard as private. Another teacher saying, I came out to my students because I recognized one of them desperately needed me to and on and on and on. And just understanding with a weight that schools have an opportunity and responsibility to do more. Mm-hmm.. And so at that point, I hadn't come out to my students. I hadn't been honest. I'd been censoring and occasionally being dishonest, but then I gradually stopped doing that. I understood that I had been disrespecting their need and expectation for me to tell them the truth. I had disrespected their capacity for understanding. and the evolution of thought. All of us wove into the fact that our curriculum system has been doing the same. Mm-hmm.. And so I, Miriam Morgan Stern, my colleague at the time, we started having about a year and a half of intentional conversations about what to do. We were both ready to branch out and do something more beyond our classroom. And we started talking about UN erasing L G B LGBTQ history as it's woven into race, gender, nationality, everything that's not white, cisgender male, heteronormative Christian, and connected with archivists and historians dug into the archives ourselves. And I tell you, when I first introduced a lesson on L B LGBTQ Q history, that was L G B T Q inclusive. I was scared. I was scared. I knew that. I didn't wanna make my students uncomfortable, or they go home and tell their families and then their families, somehow something's compromised with their relationship with the school, because a lot of these kids are coming from countries that criminalize mm-hmm. air quotes, homosexuality. But let me tell you, oh my word. Uh, there was a lesson on Byard Rustin and Byard Rustin's influence on Dr. King and American Civil Rights we're talking about how Rustin was the one who convinced King to remove the weapons from his home and employ the tactics of Gandhi with nonviolence and peaceful protests and his orchestration of the march on Washington. And this was the year that President Obama posthumously awarded by Rustin, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And the, at the ceremony, the award was given to Walter Nagle Rustin's partner. Mm-hmm.. And so Obama's. During the ceremony, oba, president Obama said that Byard Rustin had been denied his rightful place in history because he was an openly gay man. And that was the way that piece of the story was introduced to students from the president's comments. Mm-hmm., when student came up to me after class and he said, miss, I have to talk to you after class. And I thought, oh shit, . I mean, we dove in deeper into the context of the Martin, Washington, et cetera, et cetera. And I closed the door and, and he said, miss, everyone in the world needs to learn about this. This can change the world. And then several years later, went off to college. I'm doing the work of history on a race 24 7. Uh, and he connected with me. We stayed in touch and he wanted to meet, and he shared the story of how. He became really good friends with two young men in one of his college classes. One of the men came out and the other is gay. The third young man completely disassociated with him because of that. But Mohammed said, but Miss, because of what I learned in our class, I could understand him better. And we became even better friends. And I love sharing that because it speaks to the immediate and lasting impact of just one lesson. Wow. It's life changing. Yeah. Can you define when it comes to that curriculum, what L G B LGBTQ inclusive means when it comes to teaching that history? So history and race, curriculum, intersections, and connections is the name of the curriculum. So it is, We've done all the front loading. So the curriculum, it broadens what teachers are already teaching. It's aligned with state frameworks. So L G B LGBTQ inclusive means that it is a more accurate reflection of our shared history. That is L G B LGBTQ Q inclusive. It's not erased from there. Mm-hmm. because we're swimming in it, frankly, it's everywhere. Uh, we're just making that visible. So as we were developing this curriculum, over eight years of development now we understood that was a real opportunity to also un erases black indigenous women. Mm-hmm., Asian, all of the, the stories and narratives that really do belong in how young people understand who we are. Mm-hmm. as a country, but also for them to find relatable content mm-hmm. to see who they are as individuals in their relationship to our fabric. Mm-hmm., can you explain why you even have to give that curriculum to schools? Why that's not already included? Well, if, if we look at the history of education and who has been slowly included into the narrative, um, black history, women's history, Asian history. I mean, this is, we're all part of the fabric of America. A lot of people are, there's an unfortunate conflation with l g bt, just that acronym, L G B T Q, that it has to do with sex or sexual behavior. And it's hard for those. I, I mean, 9 99 0.9% of us never learned l LGBTQ history. So it's impossible to conceptualize what that is. And the only go-to really is what's been so deeply inculcated in the collective psyche mm-hmm. That mm-hmm., um, because it's been criminalized, pathologized, and that all had to do with behavior, not identities. Right. And then, so there's, there's a lot of unlearning that happens. Mm-hmm., we hear that all the time when we're working with educators. Just this week, uh, we worked with a couple of groups of informational sessions for two different elementary school. Sets of parents. Mm-hmm. and one parent, a mother said, and it was so spot on, she said, and she was resi, resisting at first. And she said, you know, none of us know what this should look like. And so imaginations run wild. She said, I have learned so much, so glad I came and I'm leaving with my mind changed. And that's, I think that little quote. Mm-hmm., nobody knows what this is supposed to look like. Mm-hmm.. So imaginations run wild. That's what we're seeing all over with these egregious bills that are circulating in state legislatures. Yeah. I would like to go over some specific topics that are in the curriculum, just to give people an idea of what students are actually learning. I know when we first spoke, uh, you mentioned Polly Murray, which I never even heard Pauly Murray's name until we spoke, which I mean goes to show just how much people are learning. Can you explain why, I think you said plumber, one of the most important people, people should learn about. Can you explain why and who Pauly Murray is? Polly Murray was born Anna Pauline Murray in 1910 and fit, uh, I'll start with the, with the Polly Murray papers and unpack that. Mm-hmm. and then work backwards. So in the Poly Murray papers at Harvard, there's a. A large trove of Polly's authorship, legal writings and briefs and poems. I mean, Polly did so much. And there's this one small section of notes to self and notes to doctors where Polly, who was fiercely curious, incredible intellectual, was trying to comport how they were feeling with what was accessible and available in society. Mm-hmm.. And so these notes to self clearly speak to the fact that that pol, we don't know how poly would've identified today. Mm-hmm., but certainly non-binary. Mm-hmm. and throughout different points in Polly's life. Um, Polly referred to themselves as a he, she personality, uh, and then later in life. When Polly was really, was one of the founders of now, national Organization for Women, began using just she pronouns. But there's different places in Polly's life mm-hmm. where you can, you can see, um, that internal questioning. But Polly Murray was, did many, many, many firsts and a lot of the civil rights, um, that we have today are we owe thanks to Polly Murray. Mm-hmm. was, Polly was the first to grad, first woman to graduate from Howard University Law School. And while in law school, uh, we, we have two curricular resources about Polly for the grade five. It's an illustrated story about Polly's unwitting influence on the NAACP's legal strategy in Brown v Board of Ed and the bet that Polly made. With her professor. Um, and the secondary level unpacks helps students unpack Polly's idea of Jane Crow. Mm-hmm. those intersecting identities between race and gender. Mm-hmm. and Polly wrote, uh, did an incredible research and compiled what, um, Thurgood Marshall regarded as the Bible of the Civil Rights Movement states' laws on race. And that is what they used oftentimes in civil rights litigation, but poll, uh, had a profound influence on Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Eleanor Roosevelt. um, third Marshall of course, and so many others. Uh, there's just so much to unpack about pulling. Right? Yeah. I think when I was then doing my research after you mentioned this to me, um, one of the most, I think just shocking. What's shocking about it is that it's not taught in schools is Jane Crowe. It was the basis of the Reid versus Reid case. Yes. The Supreme Court case. Yes. That influences like the 14th Amendment. Yes. Yes. And I, it's just really unfortunate. I mean, we learn about Supreme Court cases all the time in school, and the fact that something's so important about sex discrimination was not mentioned was very frustrating. I think personally, I was very frustrated by that. Um, you're not alone. A lot of people feel frustrated in anger and a sense of being cheated., which is legitimate. Mm-hmm., because we all were . Mm-hmm.. Yeah. And I think obviously now I know that there's laws in place where it's transpired today. Like you can't be discriminated at work for your gender, you know? But it's almost like it's presented in history as well. These white men in law made these decisions for you, but we're not seeing the whole picture of mm-hmm., what Polly had to fight through to influence us for generations to come. Yeah, absolutely. We're swimming in Polly's legacy. Mm-hmm.. We really are. Yeah. Something else I think that was interesting is just the topic of someone being non-binary, because I think right now, as there's more celebrities coming out as non non-binary and talking about it publicly, it seems. something that's almost a trend or something that's new. Like people who had never really understood non-binary people or heard that term think it's new. And I think that it's just people have always been non-binary or transgender or use different pronouns, but people think pronoun, you know, using different pronouns is new. Or like we need to all of a sudden adjust to this new way of life. And if these letters poll bro were presented in school, I mean somebody, a student obviously could be learning about this and thinking, well yeah, maybe I am. You know, it doesn't have to be, oh I'm gonna come out with this pronoun and then I have to say that way the rest of my life. Like, I think that's very important. Mm-hmm., because I hear a lot of people talk about their own personal experience with feeling like they have to come out and stick to something. Cuz once you're a certain identity to people who don't understand, it's almost like you have to like prove yourself and that's exhausting. Mm-hmm.. Yeah, for sure. I mean, For example, in that grade five unit for poly Murray, you know, in, in the elementary level, the content, LGBTQ inclusive contents presented a bit differently. It's more gentle and nuanced. Mm-hmm., but it's relatable. There's that opportunity. And so there's a mention in the, in the unit about how we would, we don't know how Paul, what Paul pronouns Polly would use today. This is why we're just using poly. And for those students who will find that relatable, they're gonna, that's gonna mean something to them. Yeah. For the students who maybe don't, it's gonna build familiarity mm-hmm. so that it's doesn't seem shockingly new. Right. And if you're learning that from a young age, it's just another part of life. It's just something else that normalizing. Right. Exactly. What is, do you think the specific response with just the, just that part of learning about Poly Murray, what do you think the response from students is? Uh, I tell you, I just did. I zoomed in for a, to present to a class of students, high school students. This was just last week and I told, I shared about Polly Murray and one of the students literally bang their fist on the desk and said, why am I just learning this now? I'm graduating in a few weeks. It was furious, but also so excited and was saying to the teacher, can we learn about Polly in class tomorrow? I wanna know more. Something else I thought was so interesting because of the last interview that I did, we were talking about how we learned that Rosa Parks was., the first and only black woman to not get up from her seat on the bus, and that she was the face of that and in the civil rights movement. And this came up because the person I was interviewing was like, oh, I actually know about this other 15 year old girl who did that before she did. But then when I was researching Polly Murray, Polly Murray did that 15 years before that. So just in that one topic. Yeah, there's so many other prominent people in history who did that, that we didn't hear about. And we kind of got this topic of, it seems like the stuff that has stuck through history is whatever was going on in politics at the time. It's so surface level that that's., oh, here's this one little topic, you know, this one like little thing about Rosa Parks and we're just gonna move on from that when that's just another, I think, frustrating part about it. Cause I was like, how many other people did that that we don't know about and were arrested for it? Lots. Lots. There were many pockets of resistance. Mm-hmm. and incidental. Mm-hmm., you know, Poly's was incidental and Rosa Parks, that was strategy that was designed. Mm-hmm . It wasn't incidental and so there was a lot of else that was provided context for that. Mm-hmm., some teachers have said that they don't even really have time to get up to current history. But I'm curious, can you kind of like lay out for people how this works? So, you know, you provide all the same curriculum to teachers and schools. They can like kind of pick and choose of what they want to go over, if they wanna like fit it into a day or if they wanna do their own lesson, you know. can you explain that a little bit more how that actually gets into schools? Thank you for that question.. . Yeah. So our curriculum is a whole school approach and it's not just a single teacher approach, it's a whole school. So when we or district, so when we come in to work with schools, the first layer of training is introducing people to what LGBTQ history is. Mm-hmm., while at the same time that's also showing them what it isn't. Everyone benefits from that. Everyone benefits from being able to talk about this initiative. Mm-hmm.. And then we have another layer with content area teachers where we help them unpack what it's going to look like and feel like and sound like. Mm-hmm. to bring this content to their students. Okay. Help them anticipate what their students will be, need to be able to do. We look at authentic scenarios. Mm-hmm., whether it's positive, negative, benign, . That's very, very helpful because everyone is afraid of pushback, especially right now. Mm-hmm.. So that is woven into everything that we do. Providing them with a buttress of support, looking at scenarios, modeling, using the language modeling, you know, in the moment, navigating the conversations. Mm-hmm. and topics. Mm-hmm.. And also we, we contextualize our trainings to meet the unique needs of a school community. Mm-hmm., some schools want us to help them curriculum map, so they, they're gonna be weaving this into mainstream US history courses. Okay. But then there's other opportunities that we've worked with, um, elective course, uh, other humanities subjects. Mm-hmm., ela, uh, we. Educators diversify their classroom collections and school libraries. There's like the teaching ELL students, LGBTQ inclusive curriculum. Uh, so there's all manners of approaches. Okay. And so have you received pushback from schools or maybe they have like passed on using this curriculum because of pushback in their community? Like have you run into any obstacles in that way? Yes. Yes. Um, but not as frequently as people might think. Okay, there is a ground swell of understanding that this is needed. Young people are surrounded by L g LGBTQ topics everywhere in their life, everywhere. And so bringing it into the classroom is it helps them understand the path and progression helps them of those topics, helps 'em make sense of today's world in a healthy way. Mm-hmm.. And teachers wanna do it, but they're also afraid. Mm-hmm.. And so we always say the fear is real and we are here to help. Yeah. Well that's amazing that you're also there to guide them and teach you instead of just saying, here's information. Good luck. So when you say the curriculum also goes up to, I think you said like just yesterday, like what is the most recent curriculum? Yeah. So we, so intersections and connections. So we include in whatever resource it is in our curriculum, connections to today's world. Mm-hmm., so students are seeing how it connects, what they're already learning, and then also how it connects to today's world. Gotcha. So we're always updating those. Mm-hmm.. So for example, the most recent update was. Um, the economic impact of discrimination. So if we look at Florida and the don't say gay law mm-hmm., so that, that was a recent ad. Yeah. So, and how that's impacting, you know, different contracts Yeah. And travel and, you know, different components of, again, that centrality of economics. Right. With this discriminatory policy cultural practice mm-hmm., what does that do to the community? Right. So, I mean, let's get into it., let's go. I was gonna bring it up anyways. So don't say gay bill, which was signed by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in February reads, classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade three, or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. N P R reported that DeSantis and other supporters who gathered for the bill signing referred to efforts to educate students about L G B T Q issues as a part of woke gender ideology in April, N P R also reported that more than a dozen states proposed so-called, don't say gay bills that will mirror Florida's controversial law. I can tell you, I have conversations with parents, with principals, with teachers, with students. State lines are irrelevant right now. What's happening in Florida touches everyone. Mm-hmm., there's, I think 37 states right now that have egregious bills circulating that target, especially trans youth, but LGBTQ youth and people. Mm-hmm., and it permeates and it's dangerous. and what's so despicable to me is to know that the authors and sponsors of these bills, there's no sincerity there. This is a political move. Mm-hmm., it's to rile up a particular idea that people can easily attach to, to get votes. It's, it's egregious, it's hateful, it is nothing more than Everest. Even if this bill was passed or wasn't. It's still, I think, gives people like the entitlement to treat a group of people a certain way or it does more about like the behavior of just people like every day. I mean, do you have any thoughts about that as well and just kind of how that, I guess, actually like takes life. the idea that these spills, and not just Florida, it's in Oklahoma, Tennessee, Missouri. I mean, it's too, too many places. It is. It prompts fear and it's stifling. Mm-hmm., I mean, to be sure it also prompts some resolve and, but, but it's important for educators to know that, well, for everyone to know that bringing LGBTQ topics into the classroom history and academic topics into the classroom is what students are starving for right now. Mm-hmm., it's, it's malpractice. If we don't, so have, I guess, has your organization been impacted or do you, can you see it being impacted by what. Schools are going to be able to teach or how they'll be able to use this curriculum. The, we'll talk about K to three first. So our curriculum for K to three, for example, we have a unit on Sarah Wakeman. Sarah Lyons, Wakeman. It's an illustrated story. We, we know about Sarah from letters written home and diary entries. Sarah passed as Lions, Wakeman, and enlisted, um, in the Union Army and fought during the Civil War. Sometimes the letters that Sarah wrote home were signed. Sarah sometimes signed lions. Mm-hmm.. We don't know how Sarah would've identified today, so we don't label it. But what students are looking at is they're exploring the possible motivations for Sarah to do this. What jobs were available to women, how, how much money, um, looking map, reading, language development. They're also playing this interactive game that is looking at other individuals who also had secrets mm-hmm. during the same time period. So they were formally enslaved people. There was someone who also passed as a soldier and fought, um, someone who was a spy. So it's exciting stuff. There's no specific L G B T Q language. However, we shared this unit with a trans. High school student who said, oh my God, if I had this in elementary school, I would've immediately recognized myself and felt better about myself that I wasn't alone. And that's the power of this curriculum. It doesn't necessarily need that specificity, right. Of L G B T Q to convey relatable, meaningful, academic content. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. And that's something that when I was listening to your podcast mm-hmm., um, and I think going into this, creating my podcast, I always thought of middle school and high school curriculum being so important, like that was gonna have like the most important impact, just generally speaking. But I was totally missing that connection of just how that can shape young children. I mean, it's like shaping their mindset and how they see themselves. And I feel like obviously representation is so important because. You're, as you grow up, I mean, you're finding who you are. I think this segues really good into the book ban as well that's been going on. So this is another thing where people say, oh, in this state they're banning books. But this is happening. I think I have it written out somewhere. It's like 27 states and it's like 1600 books. And I even, every time there's something going on, it's like, I also see that Ohio's doing the same thing, but people like don't really talk about that. But it's just like, so like coming from Ohio, it's just makes me so upset. Ohio's such a complicated place.. I know. I mean, trust me, I , but I think that like I find so much representation in. watching movies, reading books, because you also aren't getting that all the time in school. And so that's the next place. I guess I just wanna hear your thoughts as well on the damage that banning these books in schools. That a a lot. I'm pretty sure it's like a third of these are targeted towards LGBTQ topics more than that. If you look up how many books have been banned in 2022 that are lgbtq plus related, you will find the answer of about 41%. But there was also more to the data of book bands. Texas representative Matt Krause sent a list of 850 titles to the State Department of Education, which in analysis showed over 60% were about LGBTQ people or issues. The American Library Association said they got over 700 challenges to library, school and university materials in 2021, when they usually don't get more than 500 in a year. Most of those were B T Q related or written by L G B T Q or black authors. surveys have shown that about 90% of book challenges remain unreported or receive no media attention. It's insane. You know, Fahrenheit 4 51 was the most haunting book I ever read. Mm-hmm., and sometimes I feel like we're beginning to live that. Mm-hmm. books are powerful. They're powerful, and it the fear, you know, in our training we help educators unpack that idea of change. Mm-hmm., and that mostly it's not the change itself that people fear, but the fear of loss that comes with change. And for everyone that might be a little bit different if they're banning books or they don't want L G B LGBTQ topics in the classroom. But thinking about what are people afraid of? What are they afraid of actually, Relating to LGBTQ content and books, people are, parents are afraid they're gonna lose their straight child. Mm-hmm., as you said at the very beginning, it's so often perceived as an agenda. Mm-hmm. instead of a reflection of who we are, the diversity, remarkable diversity of the human experience. Mm-hmm., oh, there's so much I can say. Yeah. I don't know if I can say it without using profanity, frankly. It's like the side that sees it, that wants to ban these books that sees it as it's making my kids gay. And then there's the people who know people are the way that they are and you're just helping them find themselves. But it's like you're saying like, parents are scared of that, but it's, uh, it's just that like frustrating disconnect of, and the idea that, that it's about sex. Goodness. It is absolutely embarrassing. Yeah. And they said, well, I saw this as like a quote in an article about it that. They didn't like that it's the LGBTQ books were like porn, but you wouldn't say that about a heterosexual relationship in a book that we are also reading in school. So why is all of a sudden way more sexualized? Just because it's same sex? Because there's a lot of distorted ideas with without alternative ideas. And that's why our curriculum is so important, so important to, to bring in accurate information. Mm-hmm. real content about real people. Man, it seems like we're heading to Handmades Tale. Yeah. And Rapid Fire. And even just like heading into this interview and just everyth. That's been going on in our country. It's just everything feels like more and more depressing and just more, and then I'm just like, oh, we're already going to talk about how our education system is failing , our youth. What? It's nice to talk to you where you're doing something very positive and you're helping people and like it, even if you, there's just one kindergartner who here's like one lesson, like that's helping and the fact that it's in 2,500 plus schools. I mean, I wish that I had that. Yeah. When I was younger, the, the, oh my god, there's so much to say. Anyone who needs, we interviewed Walter Nagle on Tuesday of this week by Rustin's partner. One of my colleagues was, was there in his home and it was a, a video. We're gonna create a short documentary and. And some curriculum content that relates to Bio augustin's international humanitarian work and, Hmm. Wow.. Sorry, one second. No worries. Take your time. He was talking about how, oh man, I asked him, what was the first Pete Byard? Reims, also a singer, he's a musician. Music was really important to him. It was Central. And I asked Walter, what was the first song that he heard Byard sing to him? And it was, nobody knows. The trouble I've seen is talking about how much Byard had been through in his life, and Walter was very emotional and there was a comment about. It seems like so much of this trouble is coming back. It was pretty heavy. More water, I think. Whew. Book bands have escalated since I interviewed Deborah in May. An updated report by Penn America published in September revealed 138 school districts in 32 states banned books, and all of the included districts enroll almost 4 million students. The first band book in the US on record actually occurred in the 16 hundreds when English businessman Thomas Morton arrived to Massachusetts with a group of Puritans. He found he didn't like their new world rules and values, so he established his own colony of forbidden old world customs. He was eventually exiled by Puritan Militia and wrote a tell-all book critiquing Puritan Customs called New English Canaan, which was published in 1637. Disapproval of the book led to the Puritans banning it. Clearly, the US has a long history of banning books when certain groups of people do not approve of the content. Recent L G B T Q related band books include all boys aren't Blue Lawn boy and gender queer. I remember you had said at one point before this interview that this curriculum saves lives. Yes. Could you expand on that? Oh, I'm definitely gonna cry on this one. Oh, we had a, um, a youth equity program that ran a year long and we worked with cohorts of students from different schools. Came together once a month. We taught. Some LGBTQ history. And then later in the year we worked with them on facilitation skills, presentation skills. And then they went back in the spring to their schools and they taught their teachers and school staff some l BT history in early November. We started in September. Uh, in early November, one of one of the students came to me and Miriam and shared with us that they had planned to take their life and they had the date planned and everything had already written the note, but they had, he had been so moved with what he had learned that he said he felt a sense of connection and belonging that he had never felt before, and that he felt a responsibility to pass it on. Huh. And then a few weeks ago, reached out, we hadn't been in touch in six years. He reached out and he said, asked he on the contact form, he was trying to find me. He wanted to ask if I would provide a reference for him for a teaching position. Oh, so he's That's awesome. He's gonna be an English teacher. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Yeah. But that, when we talk about it, saving lives mm-hmm., that's a very explicit, specific example. Mm-hmm., I, I know of an I, I hear stories from teachers who are talking about how this is, it's firming lives, it's changing lives, and we know it's saving lives. Mm-hmm., that was just two hours and that's just someone who had shared that with you. There could be so many other students who aren't actually. Maybe saying that out loud, but probably going through the same thing. For sure. Undoubtedly, visibility and representation can be revolutionary. I mean, I myself, I didn't even know there was a word for what I was thinking and feeling. Mm-hmm. until I was in college. It was a homosexual . So how, how do you think this curriculum would've helped you personally if you had it? Huh? I know with profound certainty that if I had had just one lesson in elementary school, middle school, high school, I would not have lived each of the statistics that we are trying to mitigate right now relating to youth and risk behaviors and suicidality. Mm-hmm., and I tell you people my age, , LGBTQ identifying people. So many of them ha were homeless at one point in their life. So many of them, oh my gosh. We hear this all the time. How their lives would've been different. What this would've saved them from if they had had this in school. True Colors. United is an organization that implements innovative solutions to youth homelessness. They shared a study from Chapin Hall at the University of Chicago in 2017, which reported that LGBTQ youth had a 120% higher risk for homelessness, true colors. United also shares some of the reasons G B LGBTQ youth experience homelessness. Family conflict over sexual orientation and gender identity is the most common cause. Other reasons include rejection, aging out of the foster care system and poverty. And oftentimes it is not just because of one reason, but a combination of many. When did you start to notice this history was missing from curriculum? When I connected with Vincent Gianni in 2012 and learned about the fact that my story connected to so many others and learned at the same time, same time period, Josh Howard was pro producing the Lavender Scare documentary and connected with him too. And I was learning about that for the first time and understood that, holy shit, my story, I'm not alone. Like that sense of shame that I felt for decades. Mm-hmm. was replaced with feeling a real connection to something and I was so angry that I was just learning about it for the first time and I got hungry to learn more and. I mean, it's not all persecution and violence. There's a lot to be celebrated. Mm-hmm. from the LGBTQ community. Um, so how did you continue to learn about it? Oh my gosh. We, I spent a lot of time, I went out to one archives at USC libraries digging into the archive that, like looking, holding the stuff in my hands. Mm-hmm., it was exciting. Boston History project, New York Public Library. Um, just connecting with historians and archivists who could help show me and show Miriam where to look. I mean, when you think about the acronym, like yeah, these people have always existed through time, but the language is new. Yeah. So trying to find in the archives what you're looking for. It's hard. Like we're now having conversations about what is gonna be. And agreed upon set of ontological terms that it will sustain hundreds of years from now. Mm-hmm. when looking for this content. Yeah. So I hear this with any topic of history, but that's like left out of curriculum that's usually used, but that it's, it's like, you know, it's labeled as a certain type of history or it seems like complex, but it's, at the end of the day, it's just history. It's just facts. It's just things that happened and what it's really about is people re restricting people who are unlike them from knowing about it. It's like mm-hmm., it comes off as, I think how we were saying, I think it's like they don't want people to like find this about themselves, but it's, at the end of the day, this isn't something that's just like being like made up or it's some stuff that already happened and like everybody has the right to know just like any other history. It's just history. Absolutely. That's what what students said years ago. This is just history. We have a right to know. Mm-hmm., what are we gonna do when we run outta months? Black History Month, women's History Month. Mm-hmm., LGBT History Month. It's just, it's all the same. Yeah. Right. And it's l un erasing LGBTQ history is uniquely unifying because l LGBTQ people exist and always have mm-hmm. and every culture belief system. Mm-hmm. Nation, community, family. Yeah. Everywhere. And it's crazy, like I think until I started seeing movies from like set in like the 18 hundreds or like there's the movie The Favorite, there's movie Portrait of a Lady on Fire that just happened to include LGBTQ storylines. That was the only time I could actually visualize that community in like another time. And I think a huge part of history is like visuals and like seeing, like putting faces to experiences and.. I was like, well, no shit that was going on. But I just never had like a conscious thought about it. And it's just, and that was like when I was in college and it's just, I don't know, it just blows my mind. But it's because we're not, like, I wasn't raised like learning, so I just consciously wasn't ever thinking about or aware of it. And then I'm just like, that's just kind of when I came that realization of like, this is, people have always been like this. Like, but it's, that's the heteronormative design, right. Exactly. Yeah. Doesn't allow you to imagine that. Right. So exactly. Here's kind of share one cool thing. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. So the author of America, the Beautiful, which was later put to music, um, the author was Catherine Lee Bates, who was in a Boston marriage for I think, I don't know how many years, 30 years, let's say. Uh, with Catherine Coleman, um, the Boston marriage. So they were, um, and many, many, many women lived in these Boston marriages, including Jane Adams and Guer Cleveland, Cleveland's sister. Um, but I just think it's really cool to like, think about, you know how as we're all singing America the Beautiful that is directly connected to LGBTQ history? Mm, yeah. Wow. So we're not only swimming in it, we're singing it. Yeah.. . Wow. Yeah. I had no idea about that. So something I was curious about, I think just, especially personally, like just feeling overwhelmed with everything going on in the world with school shootings that happen with, it's like, and then focusing on, you know, going to this interview cuz it can be really, we were just talking about in the car. Like it can really take a mental toll even if you're not, like, I can choose to look away from my cell phone even though it's really hard. But you know, you're in this every day, like, this is your life's work, so how do you handle., I guess constantly being surrounded and like very aware of all the issues that the LGBTQ community faces there. Unfortunately, there is an inordinate amount of attention given to those few voices who are crying out, resisting, banging fists. The pr mostly the interactions that I and my colleagues at History and race have with people is hopeful and positive and actionable. So we are aware of the, very aware of the egregious acts and, and bills, et cetera that are circulating and comments, but at the same time we're, we're surrounded by a lot more. positivity. Mm-hmm. and moving this needle forward to real change. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. I think that's something that has just been nice to hear you talk about is the positive of it. Because anytime I see anything going on, like in the news, like with these bills and everything, it's always the, obviously the negative part about it, which there is a lot of negative, but just, I never hear people say like, well actually people like enjoy learning about this and people have a positive response. Like, I think an initial thought would be people are gonna have negative responses to that, you know, and there's just so many people in all these school districts who really appreciate it, it sounds like. Well, who can argue with the 14th Amendment . Exactly. And the constant, the courts and you know, yeah. Dr. King. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Civil War happened, these people Yeah. Fought. I mean, it's, it's just.. It's so simple. I mean, at the heart of this, it is just so simple. Mm-hmm., it's just history. It's just facts. This is a really difficult time we're in right now for a number of reasons, but I do wanna share that the, our rising generations of young people are giving us a lot of hope. They have a much clearer vision of the world. We've left them a mess.. We, I mean, we really have, um, history and race's. Vision is to become increasingly unnecessary., but I don't think we're gonna see that actualized until after my lifetime. But the process really has started and this grassroots approach bringing everyone into the learning. Bringing everyone in and everybody's getting the same information and the same content and the same messages. Mm-hmm., um, it's working. Do you have any last thing to say? Maybe if someone listens to this and they are a teacher or a parent or student, anybody who maybe wants this to be in their school, like any advice for them or where to start? Yes. Go to un erased.org. We have tons of great information there. There's a How you can Help page. We have a curriculum overview. You can see what some of the content is. Uh, there's some videos, podcasts, all kinds of great information, but un erase.org. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I could honestly talk about this for hours and hours. Like it's actually really hard for me to stop this conversation , but I think we at least got enough to give people. But thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's been fun. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Reconsider Everything. If you enjoy the conversation today, subscribe for more episodes and leave a review. I'm your host, Marissa Nichol. This episode was reported by Tim Burdock and edited by Jake Stevens. All music was composed by Alex Joaquin, and Cover Art was created by Olivia Nickel. Continue your education on our social media handles and at the resource list in the description below, and join us every Tuesday for another episode.