The Swiss Road To Crypto

Liquity, an update and why it is different

November 14, 2022 Didier Borel Season 3 Episode 78
The Swiss Road To Crypto
Liquity, an update and why it is different
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Show Notes Transcript

I speak again to Micheal Svoboda, COO of the Liquity. We contrast Liquity to Maker Dao and other stable coins, discuss Liquity’s continued adoption, Ethereum’s recent upgrade to POS, the FTX debacle and more.

Link to podcast

Time stamps

04:02 Liquity protocol, decentralisation, and contrast to Maker Dao

06:24 Can funds be seized?

08:33 Liquity by the numbers, and how recent events have affected it

10:52 What do people use LUSD for?

13:52  Why professional asset managers use Liquity

16:33 Where does the trust come from?

19:19 Ethereum, Pos and decentralisation

21:46 Finma and recent regulation

23:35 FTX - thoughts

25:58 Chicken bonds

29:13 Rapid fire questions

Links

Book- Don’t prepare, just show up 

https://www.orellfuessli.ch/shop/home/artikeldetails/A1002876751?ProvID=10917751

https://www.liquity.org

@LiquityProtocol

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This podcast is produced by Didier Borel and Mikhael Junod

Copyright © *2020* *The Swiss Road to Crypto*, All rights reserved.

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This podcast is produced by Didier Borel and Mikhael Junod

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Micheal:

where does the trust come from? You know, trust by fully regulated, audited, traditional stablecoin backed with traditional assets. But the trust can also come from a fully decentralized, open source, immutable, transparent, stablecoin that is backed crypto assets, the consumer is protected because there's no information asymetry there are no humans run away with your funds.

Didier:

Today I am pleased to have again Michael. He is the COO of Liquityy. Liquityy is a company that created Liquity protocol on Ethereum. It is a stable coin protocol where you pledge Ether only into a smart contract and create a stable coin called LUSD. We are back to discuss the evolution of the space. Since our last podcast in May, 2022, we have had stablecoin addresses frozen because they touched the tornado cash protocol. And we have had some important changes to make or Dow, we will discuss how these have affected Liquity and their bond issuance called chicken bonds. Welcome, Michael. Nice to see you again.

Micheal:

I did today. Yeah, it's a.

Didier:

So maybe let me just give a, again, a quick description of what Liquity is So Liquity is, it's a protocol in which one, can pledge his own Ether. one has to be over collateralized by 10%. So one pledges, for example, 110% minimum. Ether to, to get a hundred dollars worth of a stable coin, called LUSD and then, like other protocols, if the value of Ether goes up or down, you could be called to pledge more Ether, I mentioned recent changes to the Maker Dow protocol because one often compares your stablecoin to theirs, but, but in fact you're quite different. so Maker Dow recently, you know, it used to be a protocol in which you pledged only Ether, and then they allowed you to pledge other. Assets as well, namely stable coins, and I think many people pledged USDC the big advantage was in Maker Dow when you pledged Ether, you had to pledge at least 150% collateral. Whereas if you pledged just USDC in Maker Dow, you only had to pledge a hundred percent. So of course everybody stopped pledging Ether and they started pledging stablecoin and that created all sorts of problems for them. one is that, some of their addresses I think touched tornado cash protocol, and I think they got, some of them got, frozen because of that. Plus a lot of the, the stable, the SDC that was being pledged, I think. Possibly in Coinbase, and people are afraid that Coinbase is a centralized institution. They can be censored by a regulator, and all these things don't happen with Liquity because the only. Collateral that you accept is Ether. Um, so Room Christensen who started Maker Dow was proposed some changes to it. And I think he's often having to sort of balance three sort of objectives at the same time. Is one, is, a stable coin that's theoretically decentralized. he's trying to still increase the profitability for the owners of the Maker Dao coin, which runs the protocol. And I think he wants to, minimize the impact or the spread that regulators can have on him. So he's proposed some changes and I think he owns more than 75% of the tokens, so people think it's in fact quite centralized around him. this is a little bit in contrast to Liquity. So can you tell me what are your thoughts on, their changes and how is it different than Liquity in the sense that Liquity, I think you've always favored decentralization over scaling, for example. What are your thoughts on all of that?

Micheal:

Yeah, I mean, first of all, already. Recapitulating, all the thingss that are changing, you know, understanding that. So I'm also not sure if I'm totally up to date, but it, it's not easy, you know, even as a delegate, keeping up in which direction they're going and what is right now happening. And I think my thoughts are, For me, maker is like in the middle. So if I look at stable coins, you can have the fully regulated one. U S D C is a stable coin like that there, you know, it's audited, everything is clear. It's in a traditional way. And then on the other extreme, I think there we have Liquity, which is fully decentralized. Um, it's just the protocol. The protocol is immutable. No one can change something. You know exactly what you get. Um, the terms and condition can't change. Everything is transparent, real time auditable. Um, and I think that's the other extreme and based on the current regulation, I think for me it's becoming clearer and clearer that I think only the two extreme kind of have a, a solid ground to be. And, and I think everything in between, which claims to be decentralized but isn't, Will come into regulatory, waters, which is difficult to navigate. And for me, maker is at the moment bit there. They want to be decentralized, but they have control over the collateral and provided to a centralized entity. so it's a mix. So some people also say it's kind of the, the worst of both worlds, And I agree with this, with this view. Yeah. And I think it's also as a user and customer, I think that's also a risk that you're not sure in which direction is this going, who is steering this boat? Um, and that's also the reason why we have regulation because it's to protect the consumer. So I think either you do it kind of fully, like we have established regulation or you provide full transparency and no information asymmetry as in the case of Liquity. I think these, these are two ways which make sense and I think the middle ground is, is difficult.

Didier:

If I had Ether that had been put through the tornado cash protocol and I had pledged them in a smart contract in the liquidity protocol, could my L U S D be frozen?

Micheal:

So I call it, you know, what Liquity has value as stablecoin. So first, U S D C has function to blacklist and whitelist, um, their coin. So funds can be frozen, funds can be ceased. That's something that's not built into Liquity because nobody controls it. You know, not, somebody should have more control or decide what's better or not. in the block chamber that's often called, um, credible neutrality, the protocol is totally neutral. And so there's no such function. So, and also the protocol can't be stopped. Nobody can do something with the stable coin. It's unstoppable. As long as the Ethereum network runs, um, Liquity is running also.

Didier:

So now that Liquity is, the protocol is up and running, there's no way to change the protocol itself. Is that correct?

Micheal:

Yep. Yeah. So, This gives you a strong guarantee as a user. You know, you once look at it, you know what to get, not something in between will happen. There's no downwalls, no there's no contract update, and then there's something you weren't, you were not aware of. Means also what you need to be very careful when you design it. And of course there can be a bug in Liquity, but then kind of people need to upgrade. Um, people would need to become aware of. So that's a bit the downside. Everything at an op upside and a downside.

Didier:

Yeah. Yeah. I recently wrote an article in my sub stack that the newsletter that basically said that the criteria to measure. Decentralization is how difficult it is to change the consensus protocol. If it's difficult to change the consensus protocol, then it's decentralized. Other criteria to measure decentralization can be gamed like the number of nodes or or things like this. So as you're saying, Liquity is, is launched. So now we cannot change the, the protocol basically, okay. So, do you have any recent numbers on your usage? I'm wondering if, if this has affected you positively or negatively because I think last time we spoke you had about, there was about$4 billion worth of collateral in, in the protocol, and that was like in May. And do you have any recent numbers?

Micheal:

Yeah, so I think, I think the number was, the Liquity protocol since, since launch has managed 4 billion in, in loans, you know, autonomously kind of given out, has loans have been repaid. And of course last year when the bull market was, there was much more demand. For going leverage or to borrow against it. And now in bear market, of course everything shrinks, shrinks also usage. But I think what's really nice, even though we are kind of in the midst of the bear market, especially since, the Lost downturn, for example, in was that mid June, has grown. So I think which is amazing, and, and on its own, We didn't change anything. So for example, the, you could say the number of customers or the number of position loan positions has almost increased 80% for 450 to 760 or 800 right now. So more people opened up loans. Um, the L U S D in circulation also increased 10% during that time, I think, which is, which is really great because all other stable coins have a growth that is, smaller than 10% or negative. So LSD was the only defi stable coin that had such a big growth, and I think there was only Gemini, which even grew more. So I think there, LSD Liquity really stands out even though in these bear markets, and again, I think around the Liquity protocol itself. Made probably 3.5 million in revenue this year. totally on its own. You know, that, that's the fascinating thing

Didier:

That's the zero point that only comes from the 0.5% that goes to the protocol. When you open the position, is that, is that the only source of revenue? And you say how much? Three

Micheal:

No, there are two, but, but that's the main one.

Didier:

Okay. And what, Yeah. What are the two? So the main one is when one creates a position, one pays a 0.5% fee to the protocol

Micheal:

And when you, when people redeem the stable coin. So, but again, that's what fascinates me about Liquity. Liquity. The protocol has done it on its own. There's no back office, there's no operation. It was just there. And the customer self-serviced themselves. And in that sense it has, even in bear Market has done very well.

Didier:

And what do you think people are using the coin for, are they using it to have a coin that they will, use in some sort of defi trading, or do you think they take it out to sell it against real Swiss Frans or dollars to go buy some good in, you know, goods in the real economy, buy a car or something?

Micheal:

I was in a call with people from the crypto space and they were really thankful that, Hey, Liquity is such a great project. I just paying down my mortgage. So I took a loan out alone with, I mean, zero five point percent one off fee. So actually just a one off fee, not, not an interest rate in this interest rate environment, for example, in the US that's, that's really interesting. Um, and that's also something I heard, from an asset manager. An asset manager in the. US, uses Liquity for their clients to take out the loan also for mortgages or, or other things. So this is really something I hear often and for example, the asset manager said, um, his clients even instead of taking it out with block five or previously with Celsius use, you know, um, They are really open to take it out directly from a protocol, because right now, after Ftx Celsius and all these kind of things, people start to realize that these more centralized players have also big, big risks. And even though Defi was seen as risky, kind of these more battle test projects are more and more perceived as safer, Um, kind of with less counterparty risk or normal counterparty risk and manageable technical risk. So that's something we see. So one thing is really this, um, borrowing at attractive rates for real world usage. And the other one is, um, to build up leverage position if you are long, Ethe Liquity is also great to create long, um, leverage.

Didier:

so for Swiss banks, you said something that, that ticked my imagination. You said you speak to asset managers who use Liquity protocol to, help what Pay down mortgages for the clients. So what did you say?

Micheal:

Yeah, I, I mean, that's the use case. So they, yeah, to pay down the, the mortgage because it's cheaper. You know? I don't know. Right now you probably have 5%. With Liquity, you take the 0.51 time, um, and you'll have lower, lower interest cost.

Didier:

Because I was speaking to, I was doing a presentation once for some asset managers and I said to them, in 10 or 20 years, your client is not going to understand that he cannot interact. With Bitcoin or with a defi protocol through his bank account with you, he's not going to understand that. Just like today, he doesn't understand that he cannot contact this bank through an app or through the internet. And so, I find that interesting that you have professional asset managers who now use your protocol, and I think

Micheal:

And they even said, you know, Yeah. They even said to the clients that they think that's the future because these clients maybe wouldn't do it on their own. They're not sure that's why they went to Blockfi and he says, you know, probably the future, you have these front end or banks that have the convenience, but in the backend you have another financial backend, maybe a defi backend, which is really a total new stack compared to the traditional one. And actually, I dunno if you talked about it, in the last time, but I mean the same, um, the similar use case, Bitcoin Swiss did the same. You know, Bitcoin Swiss can offer you a loan from their balance. On your crypto, which is expensive for them because they're not a bank, they have capital costs. Um, or as an alternative, they offer you to take out the, the loan directly with Liquity as a counterparty so the protocol as a counterparty which then they facilitate the trade, so they are also pioneers in the space and showing a bit the future how these financial services for the, for the customer. Still the same financial service, a bit another risk profile, which you need to be aware of. Um, but just the plumbing, um, is different

Didier:

Yeah, this is a good example because, I know your, your theme is that the back end will change and the back end will move to defi. That's one of your main themes. And so this is an example of it and, the front end. Has to be easy, but people are used to a front end from a bank. And as you say, people don't necessarily understand defi, so they're not gonna trust it, but they're gonna trust their bank. So in fact, you can, you sort of use the bank or the traditional asset manager as the traditional front end for, for trust and for, a user interface that the client is aware of. And in the back end, we're using a defi protocol, which is, which we hope is, e censorship resistant. Also, on a recent podcast I did, Alex Polak, who's often on my podcast, made the distinction between basically stable coins in the future will, tell me if you agree with, this is my question. Stable coins in the future will go to the ones that have. That are either censorable, that can be censored, and the ones that cannot be censored. And, there's going to be a sort of bifurcation of the two types of stable coins, and, and probably the ones that are going to bow to regulators all the time, and therefore can be easily censored or, or centralized and central institutions like Coinbase. One could imagine that further on down the line, those stable coins might get superseded by by a central bank digital currency, even though that's still very far away. But do you agree with this idea that there'll be a biforcation in types of stable coins that are

Micheal:

Yeah, fully. I mean, that was my point about Maker that I think you will have the regulated ones and the fully decentralized one and Maker is right now, somewhere in the middle. You know, they have a Dow, but they have, um, In centralized units. And you know, it, it's not about is it censorable or not, it's where does the trust come from? You know, trust by fully regulated, audited, traditional stablecoin backed with traditional assets. But the trust can also come from a fully decentralized, open source, immutable, transparent, stablecoin that is backed crypto assets, I think both model are very, very valid and just in the middle it is difficult to. Either you have an entity that has some control and can do something, but then you're probably in, in the regulated space. Or you build it in a way that kind of the, the consumer is protected because he has all the information, because there's no information asymetry there are no humans and can take decision, make bad decision, run away with your funds. So this gives you also trust. But um, Then kind of in, in a blockchain sense, you know, you can trust the code and I think that's where Liquity is. And I fully agreed to answer a question that I think these are the two, models that will prevail more and more. And right now we see still a spectrum. I think this spectrum will end up in more in two different, extremes.

Didier:

Okay, so let's move on to the subject of the underlying blockchain. In other words, Ethereum. So now Ethereum has moved to proof of stake. Many people who don't like proof of stake will tell you yes. a lot of the validators there, I think they're four or five validators who have 75% of, the validating nodes, which are the Lido, Coinbase I forgot the other ones, but four or five regulated institutions, mostly in the US. So you could think after regulator comes down on them, they could influence, the validators. And if you are a staker, in other words, you have Ether. State your Ethe by giving it to a validator. Theoretically, you should be able to pull it out of the validator and move it quickly and easily to another validator that you might prefer in another jurisdiction. This has to be of course, frictionless and inexpensive. And this is not yet the case because I think we need a Shanghai upgrade in Ethereum for Staker to easily take. Ether out of one validator node to put it into another one. So what, what are your thoughts? Do you, are you afraid of Ethereum being too centralized around certain validators? Do you think that's something that's gonna work out in the long run? How do you see this problem?

Micheal:

Yeah, I mean, I'm quite positive. Ethereum greatest strength Is the decentralization and no compromise on that. So I think that's for me, a strong sign and I think something that's ingrained in the community. But still, I think, yes, there are concerns that can be, things done to improve the situation. And it's, you know, it's decentralization across the entire stack from the validator, stakers front ends. So I think. You need to look at the entire stack, but the lower, in the stack you have the centralization, the bigger the problems. And I think it's good that on the roadmap there are ideas to still keep it decentralized so everybody can participate in the network. And also on the staking side, I think it's not healthy that to have this. Yeah, the, um, this concentration of staking power with Lido. I would love to see more. Diversification, of course. But I think it's great that these market forces work a bit and I think it needs more time and, and hopefully, we find solution to make the the network, keep the network resilient. I think it's crucial. I think, I see efforts being done in, in the right direction. Yeah. But I think it's important, you know, it's, it's the only thing we shouldn't compromise. Yeah. Because otherwise I think. Why having blockchains in the first place,

Didier:

Okay. Also, I don't know, this doesn't. Maybe affect you. So I don't know if you're gonna have a comment on this one, but recently Finma announced the rule that was, you don't have to do KYC if you exchange fiat for crypto if it's a thousand dollars or less. But for classic fiat to fiat, like Euro to Swiss Franks, you don't have to do KYC if it's up until 5,000. So basically There's one rule if it applies to crypto, and there's another rule if it applies from fiat to fiat. And a group of people, notably Alexis Roussel and others wrote a letter to Finma, why is there a difference in treatment? That's unjust. But the Finma didn't want to change its rules. Do you have any thoughts on that? On the other hand, it probably doesn't affect you because if I just pledge my Ether into a Liquity protocol to get some L U S D, there is no KYC there anyway. But do you have any, Did you know that? Does it, does it affect you? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Micheal:

Yeah, so first of all, if you stay in the crypto world, it doesn't affect you, as you said correctly. I see it as a self service. You give your self-service loan by pledging Ethe and getting Lusd. But of course, if you want to use it in the real world, and if you're not about a mortgage where you anyway have to go to a broker or a bank, um, it could be useful to have this on and off ramp. I didn't follow it in detail, but you know, what struck me is just kind of that I, I already heard the argument the other way around. Regulator said, you know, you are doing something similar like in traditional finance and if something looks like a dog, walks like a dog and sounds like a dog, it is a dog and that's why the same rules apply. So, you know, same risk, same rules, technology neutral were always kind of things I heard from the Swiss regulator or I thought that's how they argued why crypto is kind of not free of regulation. And I'm just, I'm amazed that kind of, this doesn't apply here, you know? And, and I'm also wondering why, it doesn't apply here. So I, I think that's, that's the point that, that struck me. That, that it's interesting to, to be arguing if it's against you with this argument. And then at, at the same time, breaking kind of your, your principles. So it doesn't seem so principle based as I always thought the regulation would be in Switzerland.

Didier:

Okay. Also we're recording this, on a day of, well, FTX was now declaring bankruptcy. We thought that they were gonna be brought out by Binance, but by now Binance has said, just yesterday that in fact they're not gonna buy them out. so of course the price of a lot of assets have gone down. What are your thoughts with what does this inspire you?

Micheal:

I think for me, the writing of the wall is really clear. You know, once again, a centralized institution fail, you know? We had Celsius, 3 arrows capital, now Ftx. So it's not Defi It's not a protocol where we have rules that are encoded, but it's again, an entity with humans making decision, probably taking user funds for something which fail, which for which we already have regulation, but kind of, it didn't help, you know, kind of this traditional system that fails over and over again. And I think for me, it just shows that. This, approach of decentralized finance could really be an interesting option. I don't say it's must be better or it's only the one thing. Defi has technical risk. There have been hacks and so on, but it's a really interesting alternative and I think that's the takeaway for me, is a system like Liquity is real time auditable. The funds are always there, all the participants can see it. You don't need a external auditor. Um, further, there are no human decisions. There can't be any wrongdoing by human, something that we have seen now in Ftx. Um, and you instill another trust by code, which I think it's really interesting. Liquity and other protocols are built in a ways that no bank run is possible. Of course there could be bank run if it's kind of designed badly, like, like with Luna. But in our case, kind of the code ensures that you can withdraw your funds which you see that are, that are there. I think it's just, that's my takeaway to say, hey, yeah, I think that's exactly the reason why we are building sub systems, like, like Liquity. And that's to go back also to the question of the regulator. I think there, I'm missing sometimes also the regulatory bodies acknowledging that this provides some consumer protection, some trust, and maybe we not only need, um, stronger regulation, but there are areas where maybe we need also a bit less regulation because these risks are different. So, we can't have the same rules because the risks are different. And I think that's something.

Didier:

Okay. Thank you very much. Finally, let's move on to another subject. Liquity has launched recently chicken bonds, so can you discuss what they are? What's the goal, what we're gonna use the money for?

Micheal:

Yeah. So these are two different use cases on the Liquity protocol. You have the borrowing side, where I want to get out a loan of Liquity, I bring my Ethe I get a loan. That's fine. That's a, a closed use case. So these are the borrowers. Um, and there you have to pay the, one of the, the other side is the protocol itself has now this, margin loans disposition that need to be monitored. And in case they are under collateralized, they need to be liquidated and for the Liquidation you need funds so either in maker these, um, the collateral is auctioned off in Liquity because we wanted to have faster Liquityations. We, have, funds from other users. In the protocol called the stability pool, which are ready, um, to buy the collateral if it falls under the margin. So that's a different use case. Now, these are totally different users that don't have an open loan position. They have just L U S D provided in the stability pool and get a yield for it. And that's this yield source where chicken bone is built on top of it. So I LUSD it's a nice stable coin yield. I put in Liquity, quite battle tested, get, get some interest on it. So that's how the world was today. And now for the more, um, I, you call that more professional users, kind of their want to maximize their yield. We build chicken bones on top of it. So it's really not for everybody, but kind of these players that think, Hey, I'm smarter as the market. I know when to buy. I sell, the yield and how much it's worth. Um, they can use chicken bones kind of with this gamified experience. So it, it was really a, a game theoretical experiment. So all the rules are set. Now you have a level playing field where people can bond, can buy, provide Liquity, and see if they can outperform the market. And that was a way to attract people.

Didier:

Okay. So the bonds are there to create a bigger fund or buffer in the case of liquidations is that the case?

Micheal:

So that's just the base case. So you could deposit L S D and you, you got like a stable, or everybody got, got the same yield for that and now checking board is built on top of this yield source and allows you to, um, kind of. Trade this yield or this future expected yield. So it's like, that's why I said it's maybe something for more professional users.

Didier:

The yield is coming from where? I'm not quite sure where the yield is coming from.

Micheal:

the yield is coming from, from the assets that are bonded or are in, in the chicken bones. So it's the same yield source, chicken bones deposits, this L U S D. So it's the stable coin back into the Liquityy system. So, so that's the tie. But it has a game. It's like a game. The theoretical experiment. Um, So it offers different strategies to different user.

Didier:

Okay, great. Thank you very much. So, yeah, I think that's all I wanted to ask you today. We can wrap it up with some rapid fire questions. A favorite book or a good, a very good book that you recommend.

Micheal:

Um, That's always a tough one because I, I read so many more blogs and so on, but I, Which one book I remember and I, I really like this, I did some, improvisation theater, I dunno, 10, 20 years ago. And I think that's really a fascinating experience. You know, how can you perform on a stage, when you don't know what you're gonna play in three seconds with, with other people, you need other skills and principle to perform. And I think it's a skill in our world which is less and less structured and the same, which is changing faster and faster as a really important skill to be able, to react and be in the moment and get the best out of it. So that's what you train in improvisations yet, and there's a small booklet which has 10 nice princip. How do you need to think to, um, succeed, which I think you can also apply in real life because you have much more of these situations. So it's just kind of, hey, be in the moment, say yes to situation. You know, if you're on the stage, it's not arguing your ideas better than the other. It's there. Somebody sets out something, build on top of it, show up, on the stage, you know, these are some principle. If you, if you play that you need, to be aware of an embrace and. So this booklet did that in a really nice way, and I think it's really powerful in our times and it's so undervalued in our society because in in corporations in education, 90% is very structured and kind of very clear, and we have lost this 10% of spontaneous reaction and how can we create something out? Chaos or really changing circumstances. So that's a bit a long answer, but TogEther with that book, and the book is about this principle, which I found really powerful.

Didier:

and what's the name of the book? Do

Micheal:

Um, that's now a good question. It's,

Didier:

Because you just sold the, That was a great answer. You sold the book very well, but now, Okay. Okay.

Micheal:

well, I don't imagine the, I can send it to you then. Maybe I can put it, put it in in the note.

Didier:

Okay, no problem. Favorite movie.

Micheal:

Um, I was really impressed lately. A love of documentaries. By Tchnerbyl though that's a Netflix documentation, which is about Thchnorbyl and especially because, I mean I'm already now so old that when I was a child I kind of remember drinking powder milk and so on because of Tchnerbyl. And I just found it a really good, fascinating documentation, very well made. You know, you, you get part of the history, but it's also a movie. Great actor. So yeah, I enjoyed that very.

Didier:

I know which one I saw too. It was very good. Absolutely. Okay, and finally, I don't know, a simple principle that you try to keep in mind when you live your life. That you think maybe helps you or that people forget it everyday life.

Micheal:

Um, Think for me it's really, you know, having kids just, living in Switzerland and kind of in a time of abundance. Just be thankful, you know, just kind of stop in and say, Hey, forget all the small problems. Um, and just be thankful. I think that's especially something in Switzerland, if you walk through the streets and, um, even myself, you know, we are, we are always going from A to B and just say, Hey, everything is good. Maybe smile. Um, be thankful, you know, and enjoy the moment. Yeah, Because we are living great times.

Didier:

Great. Thank you for those answers. Thank you very much, Michael, it was a pleasure to speak to you again and we'll, we'll stay in touch. Okay.

Micheal:

Thanks ti.

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