Bitcoin adoption in Switzerland

Transcript

0:06

This episode is not an interview. This episode is a round table discussion At an event In n Chattel called Paradigm Bitcoin. On June 30th, 2023, paradigm Bitcoin took place in the city of Chu in the Canton of n chattel and was organized by Leon Ra. I will put a link to the event in the show notes. The event brought together many people from Switzerland and France with cutting edge knowledge of Bitcoin. I was asked to chair a round table discussion about Bitcoin adoption in Switzerland. The guests were AO Smo, the c e O of a crypto exchange. Massimo Muci, a Bitcoin researcher and developer at Denali. He's also very knowledgeable about Noster, and appeared on a previous episode about Noster. Roxy, a co-founder of DKU Bitcoin, a French organization active in Education about Bitcoin. And Lady Block Jane, an artist and owner of a tattoo shop in Beal. Enjoy the episode.

All: 1:13

Hello. We're gonna do a, panel on Bitcoin adoption in Switzerland. So for that, I am joined by Arnold Moore, who's the c e o of uh, By lady Blockchain, uh, who's, um, blockchain, sorry, who's an artist and active mostly in the German speaking part of Switzerland by Roxy, who you met earlier, who's active, I think mostly in France with Ku Bitcoin and by Massi Muci, who knows, I think the situation well in, in n chattel, but also in the Italian, also in the Italian speaking part of Switzerland. So, good morning, ladies and gentlemen. So my first question is, well, to each of you, like, how would you describe the current state of Bitcoin payments in Switzerland, in the, in the various regions that you, that you represent, so, Matthew, do you wanna start here? Okay. Uh, thank you for the question. Um, Well, uh, Switzerland, I see that there is a lot of, uh, interest in, uh, Bitcoin. There's a lot of interest. Also, Bitcoin has a way to pay, so method of payment. Uh, but, uh, yes, there are sometimes, uh, several, uh, difficulties. Uh, one of this is the fact that. We have to understand Bitcoin, so we have to, to to study Bitcoin. And many people, as I said, just said, uh, doesn't, uh, use, uh, never used Bitcoin before, um, for making transactions or for, uh, for other activities. Uh, but I think that, uh, uh, there is a lot of interest, especially, uh, here in, uh, can chattel, uh, also in, uh, in teran, in, uh, Ticino in the Italian part of Switzerland, in this part of Switzerland, uh, we have already, um, good adoption, uh, by several shops. Uh, which, uh, are, um, now using, uh, uh, devices to, to get payments. And so I think that this is, uh, a good, uh, a good way, uh, for other, other, um, regions in, uh, in Switzerland to understand that this is the way and to understand that, uh, they, they have to, to follow in case here in, uh, national, we are already, uh, good because we have, uh, a great density of, uh, companies and professionals here. So everything is okay, uh, uh, probably even better than, than, uh, other, other, uh, cantons in Switzerland. But, uh, yes, we, we need the trigger. To enhance, uh, the adoption. We, we have to, I think that we have to run now. We have to run, we have to start, uh, uh, making, making more serious, uh, um, taking more serious this, uh, this issue. Um, so I guess I'm gonna speak for, for French then. And, uh, it's, it's growing steadily. Not that much. I think what really changed is actually, uh, a Swiss company Swiss Bit campaign that really made a difference in France because before that, uh, all our solution was like fully can we see? It was really hard for, um, us as educator or our community as Plebs to just know which wallet or which p o s solution give to the merchant. And there were a lot of debate on, uh, which one we should choose, and none was really like, satisfying. And then when we discovered Swiss Bitcoin pay, I'm not on, I like them, but I'm not paid or anything. Um, It's a flawless solution simply because the law here, although for, uh, non-custodial, you kc it's lightning. It's easy, it's too quick to set up. Uh, and I feel like this solution really, um, made it easy for all the French Bitcoin community to say, Hey, just use this solution. Um, so yeah, that's actually fun that you gave us the solution. Uh, so, so it's growing, like I said in my presentation, really not as fast as we wished. And I agree with you. We, we need to start to start, uh, taking the, this industry more seriously or if not, we're just gonna be it by, uh, banking and system during the next Bull Runner. Hello. I'm happy to be at the conference. I can just talk you about a personal experience. I have a, a little tattoo shop in a more or less provincial city bi and in the beginning I felt like to be. Like the only one accepting Bitcoin. Then I get, um, on this page, like coin pages and I was looking around and some were inscribed, but even the personal didn't understand or could not, um, take payments in Bitcoin and oh, my wife hang, so I just forgot. Yeah. So what, what got them started or how were they able to, at first they were hesitant Then how? Yes. Regarded that if I want to do something in, I want to accept Bitcoin or make a, a project that people pay me in Bitcoin in my region and that, that people didn't know about and I had to go to the places where people know it. So, because I remarked even in Bill there is, um, maybe a Bitcoin automats and in the shops where they are the, the person that don't know how to use them. So I understood, oh, it was the company asking them. So I had to do the same thing. This is what I want to stay here. Thank you. Yeah. And, um, in vo, in Genea, um, it's pretty much the same. It's still quite confidential. Uh, last time I tried, I saw that, uh, this place was supposed to accept Bitcoin. Um, but when I arrived, the, the, the people in in charge of, uh, you know, um, collecting the cash actually didn't know how this works. So they were, so the only option left was cash. Um, but yeah, so I mean, I think that in general where we see the, the biggest adoption is in countries where they need it. Yeah. And the problem in the west, and especially in Switzerland, is that everything works so well that people do not, um, need to do the extra mile to learn about Bitcoin. And that will happen. Of course, there's this just a matter of time. Um, but at some point when the shit will hit the fan, that's when people will realize that the true tool is Bitcoin. And what we see also today, unfortunately, but it's still better than nothing, is that most, if not all merchants today, um, they use solutions that convert automatically to fiat. Yeah. When they collect Bitcoin. Okay, thank you. You sort of led into my next question, which is maybe doesn't really apply to Switzerland, but I'll ask you nonetheless. Uh, uh, what part of the Swiss population, or what part of the population do you think in general, uh, is closed out of banks and don't use banks, and are they adopting bitcoin? Hmm, good question. But, um, I think that, um, actually, uh, I think that, um, older people is more aware of the problems of the banking system and, um, so, um, maybe know that something, Must be done to resolve, uh, issues in the field system. And so, uh, maybe see better the, the advantages of something different. Maybe they don't understand what is the solution, but, but they know that, uh, something must be done to resolve the problem of the fiat system, uh, young people is, uh, uh, more, uh, technical advance and probably, uh, many are, uh, developers, et cetera. We need, uh, both, uh, we need, uh, the contribution of young people to, uh, grow the system by development, uh, by, um, Uh, so learning, uh, et cetera. And we need also the point of view of older people that, uh, now know that, uh, Bitcoin, uh, may be the solution, may be something that can resolve, uh, the issues that we have in actually in, uh, the field system. So I think, I think so, yeah. Maybe if I can just add, I agree. Uh, maybe for tourism it's gonna be something, so it's not really about the end bank here.'cause like you said, the whole system works perfectly so it's. There's no need. It's actually an issue when you talk to merchant, like why would I accept and maybe I see two path either when the cash is gonna go down, uh, they will try looking for privacy solution and Bitcoin with Visa for them and also for tourism because it's so much easier when you travel and you can just pay with Bitcoin. And we see that with BTC Map or the Bitcoiners now they go to a new town, they check the map, they see which merchant accept and they go there and spend. So, um, I guess that's where I would see like people using it more than just usually people order. I can't really tell. I talked all to my clients if they want to paint Bitcoin and most of them didn't understand. So as a little bit the same and then I went to the places where the people already understood, I didn't find out really how to make them interesting in Bitcoin. Must be individual. Yeah, I mean, I have, uh, nothing, nothing much to add at the end. Uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, that's the state of what it is. I mean, I was yesterday with a potential new accountant, you know, for our company. And, um, he was, you know, upfront, he was telling me, oh, I, I just dislike crypto. And I, I told him, wait, wait, I mean, let me explain you, you know? Um, and I told him First, you should differentiate crypto and Bitcoin. And then Bitcoin was a tool created to empower people for their freedom to give, to get back, um, their freedom. And also it's a, it's a beautiful tool to create a revolution potentially without blood death. Yeah. Usually revolutions of violence. Yeah. When you want to overthrow the, the, the king. Yeah. You have to cut the chop off heads. Yeah. Um, here you have a tool that allows you to just opt out from the system. Yeah. And that's the beauty of it. And, and when you explain that to people in this, in, in this way, They, they start to actually say, aha, aha. And then he immediately downloaded the, uh, the bridge wallet or app and, and he just bought like 400 Swiss Frank of it. Yeah. So it was, it was a good, but again, I'm not expecting him to use his Bitcoin, but that's the first step, you know, just buying huddling, that's the first step. And then, you know, again, It's a, it's a matter of, it's a matter of time. At some point, the shit will hit the fund. Okay. Uh, regarding Switzerland. Switzerland, vis-a-vis the rest of the world, this will especially probably be interesting for Roxy. Uh, what would you say the, in terms of regulation and adoption are the strengths of Switzerland and what are the misconceptions? Well, the strange is that you're super welcoming and you definitely want, um, to create, um, a framework that could work. Uh, like you say, we can pay the taxes. There's a help. You can create a company without bank account using Bitcoin. Uh, that will be like, and thinkable for France. Like the, they've blocked my bank account today here. Um, yeah, we welcome. The government is really trying to, to push and help an adoption. I think that's one of the biggest strengths. And then because you have already, like all the, the Swiss law, you can really create some really nice product that just are not possible UX wise in Europe. Um, we have to carry, we see people at the first cent that mean that the person, even before he can get his first transaction, he need to spend like 15 minutes Becky making photos and filling up papers and asking for permission. That's never gonna work for mass adoption. Um, so you really have a, a really good strength there. Um, then, yeah, I don't know about the, the, the back thing. Um, I like Switzer, so I don't have much bad, bad thing, but uh, honestly it's uh, it's quite impressive and that's why in France we have almost very few company left and most of them had flight to other places. Dubai or Switzerland or most stuff like that. Okay. Just because a lot of people who work in n chattel are originally from France. So would you say there are lot misconceptions of by, of some French people when they come to Switzerland when, uh, so no, I don't think misconception. I think it's pretty straightforward what we, we hope for. Um, I think what's people in front don't realize is that you can actually do it. Like yeah, we say sure, you can create a bank account, you can create a company without a bank account. Sounds nice, but it's only when you see that it has been done and it's being, doing, done that you're like, alright. That's opened a whole new door of possibilities when it comes to, uh, corporate structured, um, how the money flows and, um, So I, I guess people don't, um, de see Switzerland, but they feel like maybe it's too expensive, too far away, too complicated, uh, too strict and they don't want to make, uh, the, the move to that. Uh, I guess that will be like the main barrier is the actual fact to say, Hey, I'm moving to Switzerland and for a lot of French people is like a connotation, uh, to say that. And I guess that will be like the biggest bar, but yeah. Um, yes. I think that, um, actually, uh, Switzerland is, uh, is better because of, uh, lows and, uh, because of, uh, many other, um, important features that we have, uh, here in Switzerland that is a known in, uh, Europe. Yes, I am, uh, I am in agreement about this. Unfortunately, uh, in the last years, uh, Switzerland has, uh, um, I. Quite, uh, followed little bit, uh, Europe, um, by, by, uh, low by point of view at this point of view. And this, uh, uh, I hope that this, uh, this will, uh, end and that we, uh, should, uh, uh, continue in, in our, um, good, uh, low, uh, infrastructure without following Europe. But, uh, you, you told about, in fact, uh, K Y C, uh, yeah, I know that, uh, in Europe, uh, is becoming, uh, harder and harder. I have, uh, some information about Italy, for example. Uh, here is, uh, far better, but. Uh, this year, for example, uh, the law has been, uh, um, made, uh, quite stricter compared to, uh, the, the last years, for example. And yes, uh, at the moment we are, uh, competitive. Uh, we have a good, uh, uh, quite good, uh, laws. Uh, I hope that this will, uh, continue in the future. Yeah. Also, um, besides Bitcoin, it's also privacy. Like you really value privacy and, uh, it's really not the same feeling in France, especially with the law that they've passed yesterday with my surveillance. Like it's getting steeper and steeper in France. Well, here you're actually fighting for your privacy, right? And that's also like, even if it wasn't for Bitcoin, this is actually quite impressive. So, yeah, think they give great answers. You got something to add? Um, maybe I would put a grain of salt here. Um, In Switzerland, as we see, one of the issue, um, is Fin Ma. Um, and to be honest, fin Ma, um, looks pretty much like a, like an absolute king, you know? So they make the rules. They are the police and they also the judge. Yeah. So, um, and what we see today with the thousand swissphone per day, yeah. It's all, it's already unconstitutional because that's 5,000 for cash. So why would we apply a discrimination for Bitcoin? Uh, why, why would we have such a, such a difference? And that indeed in our constitution is written that we have to be technological neutral. So that's already something that, uh, the, the, the regulator is going against our own constitutions. But of course, we are happy in Switzerland to have, uh, Strong, um, power meaning like the people have the power. Um, so of course we can have that discussion and we can of course make sure that, you know, our voice is being heard. But with finite it's a bit harder because again, they, they, it's, it's, they look a bit like absolute king. Yeah. And I would like to temper that, uh, here because for sure what's, what's gonna happen is that Fin Ma is gonna follow the same rule as Europe. And today we see they are receiving a lot of pressure from the F A T F. So it's not about them, but you know, the, the Fin Ma at the end of the day, what they want is to avoid, to be finger pointed by France, by Germany, by us, et cetera. Yeah. So they, they want to avoid what happened 10 years ago when they lost the, the, uh, Swiss banking secrecy for the international clients. They want to avoid that to be, again, finger pointed, uh, because of that kind of, uh, policies. Yeah. So ultimately there will be a convergence between the, the laws in Switzerland, the, the way it works in Switzerland and Europe. That's my personal opinion. We don't hope. Yeah, you, you are great because you always lead into the next question. My next question, what's, what still needs to improve or change in terms of, in Switzerland, would you say? In terms of regulation and, uh, and or infrastructure to get greater Bitcoin adoption? Uh, yeah. Uh, but, um, about the regulation, I always, uh, think bad. So, uh, regulation is good, uh, until it becomes, uh, too much stricter, too much complicated. And, uh, when, uh, it becomes something that, uh, Uh, makes, uh, more and more difficulties in, uh, doing business. So, uh, in the last years, uh, regulation has become, uh, stricter, even here in Switzerland. And, and this, um, this is, uh, uh, something that may, uh, force, uh, companies to. Even to stop a business or to, to move away. So, uh, I think that, um, uh, legislation, regulation, et cetera, must be, uh, less stricter than, uh, than now. I know that this is impossible. I think that, uh, always things may be, uh, more and more complicated, but, uh, it's possible that, uh, if we arrive in such situation of, uh, uh, laws that becomes, uh, more and more strict, I think that, uh, many companies will, uh, will, uh, leave. So I, I suggest to, to the regulator to become, uh, uh, more, uh, uh, positive for the business because, uh, here we are talking about business. Uh, we are talking about, uh, people who, uh, work in this field. And so we have, we must have, uh, Laws that allows people to do such business, not laws to, uh, to make things, uh, even more and more difficult. Yeah, I would just say, um, more education. I guess. Some people were asking about it. I think that will be the key anyway. Yeah, I agree with you. It's all about education. At the end of the day, we should all, um, do our fair job, you know, each of us here, um, spread, spread the world within the family, within friends, try to educate. That's really the, the, the how things will evolve. Yeah. Okay. Finally, the last question, maybe before we open it up to the public, but I'm going to infect the sort of, the question is, uh, like what applications or what. Yeah. Apps, can you see that will increase tremendously Bitcoin adoption because here I slightly disagree with, uh, with all of you in the sense that, of course education is very important, but nobody uses an iPhone because they love the math or the other, or the physics and their iPhone. They use it because it brings them some sort of utility that they don't get anywhere else. And so we're going to need, in my opinion, applications where people get some sort of utility that they don't get anywhere else. And. That will in fact reduce the role of regulation because the only place you can regulate people is on the on and off ramps. And once they're on, they, you can't regulate them anymore. So do you have any, do you agree with that statement I just made? And do you have any, uh, do you see any applications or any use cases coming you think that are going to increase Bitcoin adoption tremendously in the near future? Yeah. Yeah. And I think the, the governments in general are doing a very good job at that. And you see they want to, uh, they want to forbid cash, they want to limit the cash usage. They want to make sure that the next generation of ash is gonna be like full control. Um, you know, so the government is helping us a lot in this sense. Yeah. So I think that's the, I think that's, uh, that's how things will happen because the ity again, that you're naming, um, will basically become obvious to the majority. Yeah. Uh, no, uh, I do agree with the statement, but he's right, like adoption will just come because it's an exit boat. Like it is just to say it's a safety net, Bitcoin, so they will need to use it and if they feel confident, they will use it more and more. And so simply having like an another wallet called storage and getting your key is a big step for someone that just, uh, huddle in a custodial account because he, he was afraid of the devaluation. Um, so if you really want to make it, at some point we need to take their hand and give them the cold wallet and explain them, or it use, and then regulation cannot do, uh, their fair pairs except if they corrupt, let's say a big hardware companies somehow, which is probably, um, and then. I don't think it's gonna come from Europe, to be fair. Like the, the global adoption of Bitcoin. I don't see it in Europe. I mean, it's really good to have a a, a safe place, a strong settle here. But I think if Bitcoin will be adopted worldwide, it's gonna be Africa, it's gonna be South America, uh, central America, those people need Bitcoin way more than we do, uh, they need now. Uh, and that's where we are gonna see like the, the Maslow adoption like in Nigeria. Um, but will let the, the African panel talk more about it. Um, so yeah, I, I guess time will do his effort and it's not gonna come from us. Um, I think that we have, uh, today we have, uh, lighting network. Uh, lighting network gives us the possibility to, uh, anyone can start right now to pay, uh, in Bitcoin, get paid, uh, making transaction easily. And this is for anyone and when the skill, uh, Uh, goes up, we can, uh, we can use, uh, uh, we can create our, no, uh, we can do, uh, much, uh, uh, more, but, uh, at the moment we just, uh, can, uh, uh, start with the lighting network immediately. We can start transacting and anytime we can transact out of the fiat system, this is, uh, good. Uh, so, uh, the important is that people understand that, uh, they have to start adopting and even, uh, start transacting. Uh, so much so the more we transact out of the field system, the more it is. So we have to leave. Um, Step by step, uh, the field system. That is a broken system and we have to start, uh, using, uh, wallet, uh, using nodes, uh, using lighting network. And when we are able to, to work, uh, to understand how the protocol actually works, et cetera, we can start with our node and we can regain our sobriety. Uh, so these are the steps. So everyone can do this. Uh, just now. We can start now and we can, and this is the only way we can have to fix, uh, this broken system before the broken system fix us. I just would like to add maybe one thing about the education is key, and I want to emphasize that because if I, I, I remember correctly, like back in 2012, for example, um, I was like an evangelist. Yeah. When I discovered Bitcoin, I became like a true evangelist with everybody, with the colleagues, with, and as such, I even spent time at lunchtime to go to other banks. I was working at the financial institutions. I was going to other banks to make presentations during the lunchtime, you know, about Bitcoin, et cetera. And I remember that people were laughing. Before I would start, people would laugh, but when you would actually tell them, okay, you don't, you don't know this. Wallet it. And then you would transfer to them some Bitcoin and then you tell them, look, now we've just actually, um, exchanged value without you being involved. Yeah. And when you tell that to the bankers, they're like, what? And then, you know, at night you go for the time with your friends, and then you, when you're bit drunk, you climb the table, you climb on the table and you yell and you say like, buy Bitcoin and do this. And that's why. But that happened and that what happened is that half of my friends actually did, and, and the other half did not. And they, they were like, oh shit, I should have listened to you. The other ones that on the other half, of course there are tremendous amount of people that have just lost it, you know, for whatever reason. Some have even played on SAT days and lost it all, just like, you know, playing casino. Um, and some just like became true Bitcoiners, and they actually are now again, themself turned into evangelist with their own network.

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Unfortunately we ran overtime and we didn't have the opportunity to open up the floor to questions.