S4, E1: Insights into Mindset Coaching with Dr. Jennifer Hall (Psychologist, Executive Coach, Leadership Development Facilitator and Assessment Author).

Dr. Jennifer Hall has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, is a Board Certified Coach, assessment author and Principal at Mindset Coaching.  Jen has been providing executive coaching, leadership training and team building for over 20 years

Jen is co-author of the Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile® (EMP) (www.emindsetprofile.com) and the Coaching Mindset Index (CMI) (https://aiirconsulting.com/coaching-mindset-index/). Most of Jen's work is assessment-based, utilizing both self-report and 360-degree feedback. She believes that feedback--whether quantitative or qualitative--is critical in helping leaders understand their own behavior and its impact on others.   

Jen is particularly interested in helping organizational  leaders and entrepreneurs understand their unique strengths in entrepreneurial thinking and behavior, which can be leveraged in pursuit of any professional goal, whether that involves running one's own business or driving growth and innovation within a company.  

Get ready to be inspired…..5-4-3-2-1.

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Connect with Dr. Jennifer Hall, Executive Coach, Assessment Author and Principal at Mindset Coaching.

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Email: jen@drjenhall.com

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Click here to purchase a copy of The Momentum Mindset Book by Vicki Main and Jonathan S.Bean.

Transcript

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Welcome to season four, episode one of the Get Unstuck Fast Viscosity Podcast. I'm your host, Vicki Mayne. And today we have a special guest, Dr. Jennifer Hall on the show. Welcome, Jen. May I call you Jen? Please do. Thank you, Vicki. So nice to be with you. Yeah. Nice to see you. And I'm a big fan of yours and your work. And I know you're going to share with us a lot about what you've been doing, but can you tell our listeners about your career? And your journey and what you're doing now. Of course. And I'm a big fan of yours as well, Vicky. So really nice to be here. So I am currently a business owner. I'm a psychologist by training and I focus on executive coaching and leadership training. The short version, I'll try and make it short version of my career is right out of grad school. I took a teaching job at Eckerd college in St. Pete, Florida, teaching psychology. And luckily for me, the college had a network associate of a global leadership training and research organization called the Center for Creative Leadership, CCL. So when I was a faculty member, I got involved there on a part time basis working with some of the leaders that came through the programs. And I loved it so much that I quit my tenure track job and moved over full time to the CCL network associate. And started an executive coaching program. And I have been working in leadership development in some way, shape or form since then, which was 1999. So 25 years. Wow. That's incredible., , and also studying psychology and then teaching in that space must've been very rewarding. I love teaching, and I love helping people develop, so there are many just magical moments in the five years that I taught full time. What I discovered about myself was that I did not enjoy evaluating student performance, so I'm much more excited about Watching people develop and I found that when I coach people, whatever their goals are, become my goals. And so then I'm supporting them and reaching their goals. Whereas when I was teaching, sometimes it felt like the students and I were working toward different ends. So oftentimes, understandably, students are very focused on grades, right? They think it's going to open the next door for them. And I, Okay. Just wanted them to learn and grow and be curious and discover new things. So when I'm coaching,, there's almost no time. We're working on different goals. Obviously clients work within organizational context. And sometimes there are stakeholders that are in some way related to the coaching engagement that might have different goals, but it just feels it's just, it's got all for me. It's got the best parts of teaching with none of the downsides. Yeah, that's fantastic. And so what inspired you to do what you do now? It just seemed like a natural evolution. So I stumbled into coaching. It wasn't even coaching at the time. We were actually called in the CCL programs when we met with the leaders in our programs. We would review the results of the assessments that they took, we'd sit down for three hours. We'd help them synthesize it and draw connections between the data points and their lived experience and identify a few leadership goals. We were called feedback. givers, which is so funny to me because it assumes that we're like sitting up on this mountain and we were all knowledgeable about psychology and the data and we were giving them feedback as opposed to how I think about coaching. And I imagine you think about coaching, you might gather some helpful information from assessment data. But it's a co created reality. We're going to have a conversation. We're going to explore some things. We're going to make connections. We're going to create meaning and decide where you want to go. So was lucky enough to stumble into an early version of coaching and get involved in executive coaching pretty early on in the field. And then it's just been a natural evolution from there. Fantastic. You mentioned there about assessments and carrying out assessments in the early stages of a coaching journey. Now, As I said earlier, I'm a big fan of yours and I know that you are a co author of developing the entrepreneurial mindset tool, which I've been, , you know, I'm now a master practitioner and I've been working with the tool now in my business,, for gosh, Five years now, I think in different capacities and it's been a groundbreaking tool for me in my journey as a coach and as working in that space. But tell me about how you came up with the course as working in a college and how did it all start with the journey essentially write the, and create the assessment tool, , which now is being used across the world globally and the impact it's had, it's been fantastic. Oh, thank you. So as, developers of leaders who use different assessments, we pick and choose the assessment tools we use, depending on the goal. So often we use 360 feedback. tools. We use problem solving tools, personality tools. And it was, I think in 2005, I could be wrong. One of the coaches at the Leadership Development Institute called me up and she said, I am working with a group of leaders and I really want to assess the degree to which they think like entrepreneurs. They think and behave like entrepreneurs. And I can't find an assessment. That will get at that. Do you know of any? I said, no, but I'll look. And so I did some research and I couldn't find any. There were some tools on innovation, but none on entrepreneurial mindset that went beyond just the research world, right? That could lead to a report with data that was helpful for the person taking it. And so she said, Oh, okay you can't find one either. Let's develop one. And I said my kids were really young at the time and I had a full time job. And I said, Oh, I think that sounds like a big project. I don't know if I'm up for it, but I connected her with my colleague, Dr. Mark Davis, who was a professor of psychology at Eckerd and my colleagues since 1994. He had already developed with a couple coauthors, Linda Krauss and Sal Capobianco. the conflict dynamics profile at Eckerd College. And so I said, now Mark's got the expertise, he's done it before, and you should work with him. And I just happened to be at the first meeting and they didn't let me, they didn't let me not participate. So I was roped in and I'm so glad because one of the big takeaways for me is really about mindset. I did not think of myself as an entrepreneur. I did not think of myself as entrepreneurial in any way. We spent a couple, actually it was three years developing this assessment before it actually went live. And I learned to think about entrepreneurial mindset in a very different way. I believe that we all have the capacity to think and act like entrepreneurs, but as there are many different kinds of entrepreneurs. And so really it's a matter of identifying what are your unique strengths and entrepreneurial thought and action. And lo and behold, even I had some, and that was what was really important in helping me change the way I thought about myself. And my capacity to go into business for myself. Yeah. And I know having read the background about the EMP, as we call it, the Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile tool, it started off with 44 different, scales, didn't it? And then it came down to 14 in the end. So that started through the research, didn't it? And it was taken down to 14, skill scales and personality scales in the end. Is that right? Exactly. We did not start with a theory of here's what entrepreneurial mindset is. Rather, we took what was called an empirical approach. And he said there's been a lot written about it. The research was not. Of uniformly high quality at that point about our entrepreneurs born or they made. And so we took a very theoretically neutral perspective. And we said let's see what's in the research. Let's talk to some thought leaders in the field. And let's create a bunch of items that we think might differentiate people who are entrepreneurs. and people who are not. We happen to compare them to corporate managers because that was our particular market, our audience at that point, and also successful, right? So we're not comparing entrepreneurs to people who have no ambitions whatsoever professionally. And we asked the question, first of all, how did the items hang together? How did they form different psychometrically? independent factors or concepts or scales, and then out of those psychometrically sound factors, we ask which ones actually at a statistically significant level differentiate those two norm groups, and those were the 14 that ended up on the assessment. Yeah. Did you ever imagine it would grow so big to be used because it's been, I know I've used it in the thousands now, and I know it's been incredibly groundbreaking in terms of my coaching with I do with my clients. So do you ever sit back and go, wow, I co authored that and created that and look what it's achieved. Look how many people it's helped in the world. Have you ever sat back and gone? Wow. actually do. And first of all, huge gratitude to all of the folks who have taken the chance and become certified on the EMP and put it out into the world. And you, in my mind, Vicki, are like one of the very prime examples of someone who is so entrepreneurially minded that you can take an assessment and say, let me create different You too, Streams of revenue around this. Let me use this. Let me leverage this because I think it has value, but also because I'm a business person and I can figure out where the value is. So huge kudos to you for that and gratitude, sometimes like just yesterday. In fact, I was, my husband and I were out running an errand and we were talking about local community colleges here. And I said to him, Oh, I just found out that someone at the local community college in Nashville just got certified in EMP. And I think it's so cool that I just happened to move to this place and I know several people just in my community who happen to be certified in it. And believe it or not, it's that local focus that lets me realize that no matter where I moved in the world, I might expect that I could meet people here who happen to be certified in this thing that I helped develop years ago., it's pretty wild. Wow. That's incredible. And you've also created the Coaching Mindset Index as well. Can you tell our listeners about that as well? Sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. So that one was also co developed with Dr. Mark Davis. I would say I couldn't have done anything without him because he likes to joke that he's the guy in the boiler room, like he doesn't have a public face on these assessments, but he's just brilliant. And he's done all the statistical work and he knows all the research. So I could not have done any of this. Without my colleague, Dr. Mark Davis, but the CMI came about because as someone who has been coaching for many years, I have noticed a trend and maybe you have to Vicki that my leader clients are increasingly expected to be good coaches to their direct reports and to their teams. And now when I ask any group of leaders, how many of you among the many hats you wear, consider yourself to wear a coaching hat at times. Do you see coaching as part of your role? And 100 percent of the time they raise their hands. And then I tend to ask in groups, another question, how many of you have been trained, received any training whatsoever on how to be a good coach, right? Separate from the other hats you wear as leaders. And then usually maybe about a quarter or a third of them raise their hands. And I said, okay, of those of you who've been trained, how many of you remember? The framework or the model, and then hardly anyone raises their hand, maybe one person. I say, can you tell us about it? Can you explain it? Can you even just tell us the acronym and what it stands for? And almost nobody can. So what became very clear to me was. There's an increasing expectation for leaders to behave as coaches, but there's not the support. And I'm a huge believer in frameworks. I think that if we have simple and intuitive frameworks, it can help us choose our behaviors in the moment. So we created first the framework for what a leader as coach can do. And there's just six simple strategies. And beyond that, there's an assessment. So for example, and you never have taken the CMI, have you? No, but I'd like to that's the future for sure. Okay. I'm going to gift you a CMI and a debrief, right? That's very kind. Yeah. My pleasure. I don't want to tell you too much about it, but let's say for example a little bit like the EMP, Vicki, in that it's not a prescriptive model. We don't. Tell people what they should be doing or where they should be high and should be low. It all depends on context, right? So if you took the EMP as a solopreneur versus if you were going to franchise a pizza restaurant in the UK, behaviors you would need to demonstrate aspects of mindset you would need to embody in order to be successful would be very different in those two contexts. Sure. So rather than say, Oh yeah, you should be high on everything or you should be high on these five. We would say to you, as given your current business challenges and opportunities, which of the scales represent behaviors that you think it's most important for you to manifest right now or demonstrate right now. And then you see your actual scales. And then, so then we've done a little bit of a gap analysis. So based on what you think you need to be doing to successfully meet your challenge. The good news is, okay, great, you're high on three of them. Oh, you're a little low on this one. So what are the implications, right? That's what a coach can help someone do. Similar with the CMI, the Coaching Mindset Index. If you said, given the people I am leading right now, I think it's very high or very important for me to lead with inquiry. a little less advocacy, right? I need to ask more questions and give them more ownership and show curiosity and be less dictatorial. And I'd also like to be high on candor because maybe I don't love conflict and maybe I'm not sharing the hard truths and people don't know them. You would tell us where you wanted to be. And then we'd look at your results, and then we would do a gap analysis. So same thing. So we ask people just to be more intentional about what are the coaching behaviors they're using, how are those different than the behaviors they're using in any other, what I call a transactional meeting with a direct report, where we might be looking at, okay, what's the work ahead? What do we need to do? How's your team doing? Those are transactional. And really sit back and say, if my goal is to develop this person, what are the behaviors that facilitate that? And that intentionality would believe allows leaders to be more effective and also more versatile because most of us. Coach in the same way, time after time, because we think it's helpful or we just don't think much about it. And instead, the CMI helps us stop and say, okay, maybe I'm using this particular approach with this client. Maybe they need something different than my typical client. I'm talking about professional coaches now, but it applies with leaders as well. So more intentionality, more versatility is really the goal with the coaching mindset index. Fantastic. Thanks for that. It was really insightful and I'm looking forward to hearing more about that in the future as well. So you've been working at Eckerd College and in that space for a long time now, and you've also been self employed working with private clients in your own business. What would you say has been the toughest part about Building your business and working in that space. I know there's lots of benefits, , if there's anybody on the call who's in business right now what would you say has been the toughest thing for you and how have you overcome it? Great question. A lot of the impact of being a solopreneur will depend on one's personality and one's preferred working style. So I had a lot of strong extroverts tell me, Oh, you're going to hate being at home all day, every day. For me, it's been fine because As I'm sure you can relate to, and as I think I'm experiencing right now, I don't know about you, but you can have really genuine and meaningful connections on video, through video, through Zoom. So I don't miss the connection, but what can be challenging, I think, for solopreneurs is a sense of community, right? So I was reviewing your amazing book again today in preparation for this call, and I was Reminded that one of the many models and frameworks that you shared was DC and Ryan. Autonomy, mastery and belonging is three essential needs. And so as a solopreneur, I think autonomy, it's an amazing opportunity to have as much autonomy as one would want. Mastery, absolutely. Belonging can be the challenge. So I work with a lot of solopreneur coaches and. What I would say is most helpful and has been for me, too, is being very intentional about being parts of communities. And there's different ways to do that, whether it's a local community, whether it's a coaching community, whether you're a subcontractor for an organization that provides lots of opportunities for community. So that need is being met for me now, but that could easily be a challenge if someone's not mindful about it and really intentional about it. Yeah, I can relate to that. And I can certainly I think community is really important to me too. And I think that's, as you say, you can get it from other areas like going to networking events, meeting like minded people. And I don't do a lot of that now, but certainly, and I know we talked about this as well, you don't necessarily do as much of the networking, but online, you're Certainly very active on LinkedIn, for example, as well. And you share a lot of great work and lots of examples. So yeah, it's great. What was your favorite part about the book? Which Jonathan and I wrote, the momentum mindset. What was your favorite part? I'm curious. Yes, I bet. First of all, kudos for writing the book. As I mentioned before, thank you for perseverance and the discipline that it takes to write an entire book. Just I'm in awe of you and anyone who published as a book because it's just a huge piece of work and there's not a lot of, as I see it. Not a lot of reinforcement along the way, right? You have to be so self motivated and so self disciplined. Whereas for me, I just have coaching session after coaching session and every single coaching session is potentially really gratifying, it's its own reward. And so to sit down and write a book, just my hat is off to you. But so of course I love the chapter of the EMP. I'm so grateful about that. Yes. Yes. I really liked about it too, . It's for me not the kind of book that you would sit down and read all at once, although I know you do suggest that maybe, deep reading is a way to do that first and go back. But there are just so many nuggets in here, Vicki. There's every model, every framework, every way of looking at human behavior almost that I've used in clients is in here. It's like just a very, Powerful smorgasbord of lots and lots of different tools. So the way I would recommend to my clients to use it is if they're ever feeling stuck, if they're ever feeling in that inertia, open it up, either just pick a chapter or go to the Table of contents and pick one that feels like it resonates with you and read it through. And you'll find at least one thing and probably five things that are helpful to you in that. Thank you. That's really lovely feedback. And I have to say, Jonathan and I I met Jonathan about six months into writing the book. So I've come up with a concept and an idea and it evolved, but I think for me, one of the biggest. Things about writing the book was that self discovery, but also working with Jonathan, who's an incredible writer. He's so the sections in the book that he wrote and I just sit and go, he's such a talented man and I love what he brought to the table with his, masculine energy and my feminine energy and bringing the book together from different perspectives. And in fact, he definitely has the momentum mindset where he's run, I think, about 30 plus marathons now. He's an incredibly driven man, but him and I, different in a lot of ways. He's quite introvert, but loves writing and gets involved in it. He loves words. That's his slogan. But I think that the book, to be fair, would never have been written if it wasn't for me becoming an EMP practitioner. And going on that journey, because that was, for me, the starting point and obviously working with coaching clients and seeing where their pain points were and seeing I guess some patterns of , human behaviors, and that was how the book was born. so that you were an instrumental part of that in the journey of that, so it's been incredible, but also writing the book and having the discipline to do it. again, there was moments where I thought, and I guess I almost thought, Oh, who wants to read about this? I had this minimized those negative thought patterns myself, because I thought, actually let's just put it out there. And this phrase done is better than perfect. I remember the editing phase of actually writing the book. I must've printed off several copies and went through the process. Because I thought, gosh, I don't want to see a spelling mistake in there. And I'm not a perfectionist necessarily, but I wanted people, valued reader and the person at the other end going, and I wanted them to have a really lovely experience. But yeah that's still ongoing. But thank you for your feedback there. I'm curious with your mindset. Are you fearful of anything, Jen? I really was thinking about this before, Vicki, as you were nice enough to review a few questions with me, and I think at this stage in my career, I am not young. I've been doing this for a long time, and I think the only fear I have now when It's not surface level. That's why I had to dig a little bit to get it is fear of becoming irrelevant. Things are changing so fast, the technology, ai. I am not interested in marketing. I'm not interested in doing AI enabled coaching, and not that I'm disparaging any of that at all. I think it's incredible. But that's not going to be what I do for the next 10 years of my career, or however long I'm lucky enough to be able to make a living, doing this. But so I guess I do. There's part of me that worries about being irrelevant, especially to younger folks. Is someone in their thirties or even their forties going to say, Oh, let me talk to her. She grew up in the eighties and, seventies and eighties. Let me talk to her. But it's not a huge fear because I do have mainly, I have a mindset of abundance. And I don't have to be the right coach for everybody. I just have to be the right coach for a few people in order to get to do what I love and make a living at it. Yeah. thank you for sharing that. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there with their careers where maybe the change careers and the want to look at staying relevant, but also might be able to resonate with you in that respect. I'm curious, you mentioned about your coaching clients.. Have you ever had to say to a coaching client, they're not the right fit in a nice way, obviously, depending on how you frame it, but do you find that there's been times where they just might not be the right fit for you? I know I've found that that has been something that the journey has not necessarily lasted the whole period of time that was set out for. And it's just the way things are, yeah, I'm curious, have you found that in your coaching career? I have definitely found some clients are a less good fit for me than others. And to be brutally honest, theoretically or intellectually, I completely believe that having a candid conversation about that is best. But I honestly worry about hurting people because no matter how I can think of framing it, I would worry that it feels like, it would feel personal. So I'm not great at that, honestly, Vicky, I'm not great at that. it happens very often. I think it would just be one out of a hundred that would happen. But yeah, I think I have experienced that as well. So yeah, I understand that. And so let's talk about teams you've worked with and leaders. You've worked with several leaders globally, and I'm curious about in terms of. The leaders and teams, what do you find where the biggest mistakes that leaders, They might tend to make in the workplace and how have you managed to generally speaking, coach them through those challenges? Gosh, that is such an interesting and multifaceted question, because when I work with an individual leader and they're talking to me about their team, that's one view into team functioning and leadership, right? But I'm only hearing one person's perspective. If I get 360 feedback that's helpful, but it's still, I'm not talking to the, Individual raters and going deeper. And then when I see a leader with a team that gives me an entirely different perspective, right? On the personalities and the challenges, there's an emerging field of team coaching, as you probably are very familiar with, and there's special training and there's people writing competencies about what that takes and what does that look like? And so I have not trained as a team coach. I do work with leaders in teams in what I would call workshops where. I'm administering assessments and people are getting individual feedback and team feedback. I'm doing one of those just a couple, a few weeks from now. And we talk about team norms and maybe team goals and those kinds of things, but I don't see that as team coaching. I see that as team development, but none of that is getting at your real question, which is what is the biggest mistake? I don't know that I see one typical mistake. Model or framework that I find helpful is Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team framework, where it just looks at five separate aspects of team functioning, any one of which they can be doing very well, or being average at or having a deficit in. So I use that often. I'm using that in my upcoming team workshop. One of the things I see most consistently, and Lencioni probably has some data on this that I haven't seen But is the conflict aspect, and they know that's of interest to you as well. So conflict is just something that most of us are not taught a lot about, through school and through our young adulthood, we stumble into it. We see what other people do, whether they're doing it well or not. We tend to model what we've seen. practiced a lot. So I think we could use a lot more training in it. But regardless, because we don't typically have it, we're not very good at it. And depending on the preferences and the approaches of the team leader they may or may not address it. They may or may not address it skillfully. And it can just suck a lot of positive energy from a team, and it can distract from the focus and collaboration. So think that not managing conflict well is one of the more common challenges I've seen for leaders. Yeah. And to segue into that, the conflict dynamic profile tool, which I know I've recently become certified in that was fascinating seeing how you can have constructive and destructive responses to conflict. And I know you've been heavily involved in working with that tool. And there's things called hot buttons, which are things which will fire as I guess make people more susceptible to conflict if they touch those hot buttons and things. And I'm curious, do do you have any hot buttons, Jen, in your if there would be, there'd be things that would make you go that's not quite okay. Absolutely. Yeah. I want to hear about yours, Vicky, if you'll share them with me. Yeah. mine would be I know when I've worked in tea, not necessarily working for myself, but when I've worked with teams, I don't necessarily need praise a lot, but if thank you for a huge job that I've done goes a long way for me just to thank you. And I think if I felt unappreciated, it would. Be a hot button for me. I think that's a basic one that I can think of that would be or micromanaging. That would probably not be my greatest I don't like micromanaging. I think just give someone, and I would do, I wouldn't do this myself. Give someone the tools and the. The opportunity to be able to flourish and do their job well. I think that would be, those would be my two, I would say. What about yourself? Oh, yes. I resonate so much. So micromanaging, absolutely. There's probably one reason we work for ourselves, right? Because it's just great to be able to decide how you spend your time, how you achieve a goal, especially if you're real motivated and ambitious, there's no chance that you're not going to be productive, right? You just want to do it in your way. And appreciation, we're talking about parenting a little bit before I cannot imagine work that provides more appreciation than the work that I do. And you might feel the same way. And when you are raising children, especially teenagers, wow, we've had a helpful compliment to what it feels like at home. And on the flip side of that, one of my hot buttons is demeaning. If someone speaks. Condescendingly or with contempt, that really is a hot button for me. And so I don't get any of that in my work right now. thank you for sharing that. What I love about the conflict dynamic profile tool is that it actually. You can look at the whole team and see what hot buttons from each person in the team have. And it can be, sometimes some people might not get affected at all by lack of appreciation. They might just think, Oh, it's fine. I don't need that. Whereas in the team would, and it's just such a great tool to use within teams to be able to have an awareness, but also an awareness of yourself. And I found that really useful. Really useful. Indeed. It's a great tool. Yeah, I think so too. And a lot of people, they will avoid engaging in the behavior toward others. That is a hot button for them with the best of intentions. It's like they're using the golden rule. But if I need appreciation. So I'm showering you with appreciation, but I'm micromanaging you, right? Or, yeah, that would work, but if I'm giving you something that I want, if it doesn't matter to you, but I'm doing the thing you don't like, because I don't mind it, then I'm completely missing the mark. So we need to think not about what we prefer, but about what the other people prefer. And it just takes more attentiveness, more focus, more effort. But it's so worth it. Absolutely. It makes me think that when you're in teams and you're doing that, it's, I guess leaders could have a tendency to overthink too much and really, but then it's that awareness piece, isn't it? They've got to be able to have that emotional intelligence to be able to work with teams in a way that gets the best results for the team and also the business, whatever that is. And it is not easy, right? I'm always thinking when I'm working with my clients. About how difficult leadership is because everyone demands different things. You've got to deal with the team dynamics. Things change within the team, outside the team, in the market, in the industry. It's really challenging and complex work, which is why I think leaders need the support. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, , can you share some tips about setbacks and not giving up and resilience? How would you overcome challenges and not give up? My best advice for anyone would be read the book because you've got about, a hundred ideas in here. Thank you. That's very kind. That's true. And I'm not really good at tips in general. And this is probably why I love coaching because when you coach an individual leader, you can find out what their worldview is, what their mindset is, what language resonates for them, what hook would work for them. So I think that individual ideas, tools, concepts, hooks are so effective. But in general, this is the name of my business is Mindset Coaching. I think it's really helpful to understand. What are your own beliefs? Assumptions? Oftentimes, we have operated with those beliefs and assumptions for so long that they're outside our consciousness. But that working with a coach, someone can be made aware of the underlying assumptions that are guiding their choices. And then once you become aware of them and look at them in the light of day, you can ask yourself a couple questions. One is, Do I really believe this or do I have other beliefs that might contradict this or at least modify this? And two, is it serving me or not? there are many things we cannot change, right? We can't change the childhood we had. We can't change the family we were born to. We can't change anything about the past. We can't change the brain that we brought into this world, right? We can't change what people do around us. We can influence them if they're close to us. We can't change world events, but we can change our mindset. We can change what we choose to believe. And I forget who said this first, but one of my favorite sayings is you don't have to believe everything you think. Just because you have a thought run through your brain doesn't mean that you have to believe it or that it's true. You can look at it. and choose whether you are going to adopt that. For example, let's say you grew up in a family where your parents always felt resentful, like people were trying to get them. There's a little touch of paranoia. You might go out into the world thinking that people are trying to take advantage of you, and you better be careful. You better not let anyone in. You better. Get yours, if you will, you wouldn't have thought about it. It's like a fish in water. You don't question the water. That's just how you were always thinking and the things you're already always hearing. But as an adult, you can say is this true? Is this actually true? What is the evidence? For it, what else might be possible? How are the ways in which you're behaving as a result of this thought, influencing your interactions? Like, how are you co creating or creating the environment that you find yourself in now and what else is possible? So I guess my advice or tips. For help. Oh, gosh, I'm losing the question first. Oh, to be more resilient would be look at your own beliefs and look at the extent to which they're serving or limiting you and decide if you want to make any changes, right? Because that will help resilience. For example, if many of us grow up, I think it's mainly human nature. Feeling like, Oh, once you're an adult, at least you're in control of your destiny. You're in control of what happens. And there's so many things that we can't control. And so to be resilient, I think we have to be aware of what we're telling ourselves about things that happen around us, because it's easy to fall into hopelessness or depression. If you don't believe you have any control anymore, you have to really look at what you do have control of. And. Make choices within that limited arena in order to feel hopeful and resilient. I love that. And I love the sense of asking those questions to yourself is a really good way to self regulate and then almost thinking about what you can control versus what you can't. And I think it really does grounds you when you think about it from that perspective. So really love that. I'll listen back to that again and listen to the answer again. And thank you. I'm curious in terms of your, what does success look like for you in the future, Jen, in terms of where you're going with your business and what your plans are? what does success look like for you? Success for me, if I were to sum it up in one word, it would be balance. So the work that I do, one of the reasons I love it is that It's pretty varied. One of my clients recently used the term portfolio career, which I love. And so as opposed to saying, I'm a solopreneur, or I do different kinds of gig work or different project work here and there, I have a portfolio career, right? So I love that. So I want to continue to maintain. The balance between different activities, so I stay fresh, so I stay excited, so I stay passionate about the work. I always want to be learning. So consider myself so lucky that I get to do work that I find deeply meaningful, deeply enjoyable, and I'm able to make a living. There are so few careers, career options that would work for my skill set. There's so many things I could not do or I would not enjoy. So I'm so very lucky I stumbled into this one. But I want to also, as the years go by, and my kids, Graduate from high school and go on to whatever's next. I want to enjoy more downtime too. I want to spend time with friends and family. I want to travel. I would like to do more volunteer work than I've been able to do during this part of my career and child raising. So that's what it looks like. And I'm pretty excited just talking about it. So thank you for allowing me to. Where would be your favorite holiday destination? Where would you go next? If you had the choice. Oh, great question. I'm a huge fan of Europe, so I would love to take the trip my daughter's taking next fall for a little bit of a gap semester. But I love Ireland. I love Italy. I want to go back to places I've been before, but I want to go to new places like Portugal. I would love to go to the Netherlands and to the Nordic countries. I think that would be super fun. Part of me would love to go to Australia, but I hate flying and that's just such a long flight. So I think I'll break it up. You can break it up into two, two stop offs, but but yeah, the Algove is very nice and it's currently 20 degrees today, which is lovely in winter. So that's very nice. Yeah. It's lovely. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and knowledge, and I'm sure you've probably got a couple more assessment tools under your belt to create in the next few years. I'm sure that. I don't know, Nikki. I might be done at two. I think you've done pretty well so far. You know what you've achieved with your team and yeah, it's incredible. Any final remarks or tips for listeners around mindset or their career, anything else you'd like to add? Bye. before we close. I, as much as we've talked about control and how little we have control of, I have seen people accomplish the most amazing things. In the face of great adversity by really picturing what is the outcome they want and what do they have to contribute to the world? And I think if people can really just spend time on those 2 things, what did they want? And what can they contribute? Then there's almost no limit to their capacity to be motivated and to overcome challenges and the rewards are so worth it. And I think that's probably why people like you and I do what we do because we love seeing people recognize, realize their potential. Yeah, that's such a powerful tip and thank you for sharing that. Amazing. Thank you for your time today and looking forward to seeing what you do next. And I'm sure, where can people find you? You're on LinkedIn. Thank you. I am on LinkedIn. I have a website, but it's, I never take the time to update it. So the coaching mindset index isn't even on it, but it's www dr jen hall.com. But LinkedIn is probably even better. Fantastic. Lovely to hear from you today, and thank you so much and look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you. Thank you. You too, Vicky. Take bye. Thank you. Bye-Bye.