The Truth about Identity, Inclusion and Why Diversity Matters.

Daniel Motino, Senior Manager of Diversity and Inclusion at Zalando, joins Janine Matos for a powerful conversation about identity, inclusion, and personal growth.

In this moving episode of Pieces of Me, Daniel shares his journey in Diversity & Inclusion, highlighting how both visible and invisible parts of individual identity shape our experiences at work. From building support systems to leading programs that elevate women in leadership, Daniel discusses how he’s helping Zalando to create spaces where everyone can be their authentic selves.

Daniel’s three “pieces” each tell deeply personal stories, including his struggles with mental health, the life-changing importance of mentorship, and the power of dreaming big. They reflect the importance of empathy, environment, and embracing change as a constant in life.

To learn more about careers at Zalando, visit jobs.zalando.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

They might come from different socioeconomic backgrounds. They might have been bullied. They might have experiences that also add to the bottle. And I think that diversity, there's lots of things, things you can see, things you cannot see. And I think inclusion is trying to make an environment where everybody can be themselves, respecting each other. That's for me what inclusion means.

UNKNOWN 0:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hi, my name is Janine Matos and I'm the host of the Pieces of Me podcast by Zalando. Career development advice, industry insights and stories from leaders at Zalando to supercharge your career in fashion and lifestyle e-commerce. So let's get started by meeting my guest for today, Daniel Motinho, Senior Manager in D&I, which stands for Diversity and Inclusion. Hello, Daniel. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I'm really pleased to be here. Actually, I told you this, right? That was a dream for me since I saw this podcast. I wanted to be in. So this is like one of the moments of my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Nice. So I managed to get something from your Zalando bucket list scratch, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Finally, finally, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

So here we are, and I'm really excited to hear about your position, what you do, and also learn more about you. I've had guests before who work in D&I, and we have different aspects of D&I at Zalando, the ones for the customers and the ones for the employees, correct? You are a senior manager at D&I focusing on employees.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Exactly. I mean, first of all, I'd like to introduce myself. Please. Right? If you have, for example, a YouTube video, which we don't do today, but especially for people with a disability that they could not see properly, you also say, hey, my name is Daniel. I am a man on mid-40s with black and I'm dressing blue t-shirt and some tainted glasses. You help these people picture who is speaking.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Imagine it. So that means I would then actually also introduce myself in that case,

SPEAKER_00 1:56

right? There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, go ahead. So I'm Janine. Well, my birth certificate says I'm in the mid-30s, but I am a woman. I am also wearing a light blue shirt, actually, and I have brown hair, shoulder length.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Fantastic. There you go. Then you see who's talking, right? You imagine your picture. But anyway, you're right. We have this decentralized DNA approach and I work in people solutions. So my focus is people policies. So while the focus of the central team is more strategic, my focus is more on the implementing, right? So basically what I do together with my wonderful team is like we design programs to improve diversity and inclusion for our employees so we could move towards more equity and people feel that they belong in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I really like how Zalando also focused on this and we have a specific team looking into D&I and making sure that especially people who are part of minorities feel part and feel seen. Of course, there's never the perfect scenario, but to make sure that we are learning and implementing. Again, with the D&I survey that you ran, you could get already a sense how it is at Zalando, how the people feel. included or what's missing?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Actually, time flies because it was in October. Yesterday was like, oh gee, it was in October. So time flies, right? For me, one of the findings was good news is that feelings of inclusion for men and women are the same. So if you measure our inclusion index, it's 69% for both, which I think is a positive thing. Of course, now you have to look at the intersection and specific demographics feel different. For me, another massive... discovery was that we have 50 people that they consider themselves trans at Zalando. And this for me is awesome because I think that trans people, especially with what's going on today in the world, are one of the most discriminated people in the world. And knowing that we have these people here that they are not afraid to tell, it gives me joy. And of course, all this helps me to build better programs. to improve our inclusion feeling because, of course, we've got 69. We'd like to get 100%, right? True. But we are there. We're getting there.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

So you said that your team, after going to the D&I surveys and looking through, you create programs to make sure that you can improve situations or what would be such a program? Can you give an example?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, so for example, we have lots of women leadership programs, right? And actually, one of the things we do is like we try to coach and mentor our women that they become leaders in a male environment, right? But in parallel, we also try to work with men that they know how they can also support this, how they can be good allies, right? Because you could not see leadership of women in isolation because usually lots of companies, what they do is like they put all their weight on women and then, you know, you move to an environment which is male-dominated. And that doesn't have to be positive or negative. It is how it is, right? And then we try to bridge in between. That's one example. We also want to highlight what positive behavior at Zalando is. We want to set up a framework that people understand the power of respect. but also the power of power. Which kind of lead do you want to be? Do you want to be a lead that influence, that shares, that is remembered by being a vulnerable person, a good mentor? Or would you like to be the member of a person that, you know, push people to their boundaries and doesn't create a psychological safety environment, right? We also are working with this.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

So that means that somebody can then decide which path they want to go, but on a good way and not just by putting pressure and being... I don't like, I don't like good. I don't, I mean,

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I... The words good and bad is not... I don't like this. I say, let's do it differently. Let's try to, because power is usually seen as a white masculine face. Let's try to change this face, right? And let's try to understand what's masculine. What means to be a man, right? We take for granted that all white men are the same. And here I have two things to say. We need men in this journey, right? Because men are... 51% of our workforce. And we need them in this journey because they also have different experiences. They might come from different socioeconomic backgrounds. They might have been bullied. They might have experiences that also add to the bottle. We need to refine exactly this unique experience of a white man, right? And I think that diversity, there's lots of things, things you can see, things you cannot see. And I think inclusion is try to make an environment where where everybody can be themselves, respecting each other. That's for me what inclusion means.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

I asked you to also bring, of course, the pieces in this podcast called Piece of Me. So let's get started with that. All right. You're close to your heart. You don't have it here. No. But you sent it to me via email so I could actually already see it. And I loved it. It was an amazing painting. And it was painted by you. Is it possible? Because I think I saw your name on the corner.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, that was painted by me. Actually, Piece of Me, Picture of Me, right? So this is something which I did when I was not... in a nice place, right? Actually, I think it pictures how I was feeling back when and it pictures also who am I and how am I. And believe me, people say, wow, we love this picture. I am terrible at art crafting. Awful. I mean, we had a team event where we had to build something and I was panicking. How am I going to start? But that happened back when, when I had borne out by changing companies and I was in a mental institution for 12 weeks and one of the therapies we had was like crafting things, right? If you go into my house, you see lots of glasses and jars, you know. So things that you started doing there. Things that I was doing there. And I did also this picture in one class. And I love because I think it pictures who am I, all these colors. And

SPEAKER_01 8:06

it was like small pieces coming all together into one. It gave a little bit of a Dali kind of sensation because it was not this picture perfect format of a person, but it was like this kind of bricks coming together.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

There you go. And I think that for me, that was an experience which I really, it was really hardcore for me to be, you know, in a hospital for 12 weeks. But I also looking back when I feel so brave that I raise my hand and ask for help. And sometimes I believe that you need to hit bottom to go back, right? Fly high. But I think that that taught me a lot. Also taught me the power of love of my friends, that I wasn't alone. And I actually, after this is when I applied to Zalando and I got the job, right? So that was a fresh start. Fresh start. Everyone, if you ever feel something's not right, ask for help to your psychotherapist. We have a mental health also at Slender Resources. Go to a hospital because it's a life-changing situation.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Asking for help is not a weakness, it's a strength, and it's nothing you have to be ashamed of. People sometimes think it's a super complicated journey, but as you said, it's just going to the hospital and say, I need help, and they will make sure you get the support you need.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Plus, you can get decoration for your whole house for a lifetime. Sorry, I need to bring some humor to the situation. And then And once you

SPEAKER_01 9:24

get actually the help, you actually can, yeah, you get free decor. So do you have this painting in your apartment?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yes, actually, you see this in my workroom. It's always there. And actually, yes, so people notice, oh, what is this? I took a fantastic painting. I was like, oh, well. You

SPEAKER_01 9:39

did say you

SPEAKER_00 9:39

had a burnout

SPEAKER_01 9:40

and it's up to you if you want to talk about it or not. What was a sign for you to see that you were actually either already in the middle of the burnout or actually there is something building up?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Actually, that was for me a between job situation, right? I left a company where I was working 12 years, right? do some restructuring, I was suddenly let go. Like I came to my office, oh, Daniel, sorry, we have to let you go like this. And of course, I didn't took the time to deal with it. I moved on. I started to look for jobs. I applied for Zalando, but they were not quick enough to get me. But it is good because, you know, the second try was better. And then I just jumped into a job because I wanted to earn. I wanted to, and of course, that was the wrong environment for me. And I'm not blaming this company and these people, right? It was me because i didn't took time to work through all the issues i had right i was feeling rejected and i just felt like i had a black hole in my heart every day i wake up was awful was awful i couldn't sleep yeah i had this feeling like someone inside of me was kind of like you know like sucking all the energy and and i had to go to the hospital and actually i think i didn't deal I'm an HIV-positive person, and I think I never shared this back when, right? And I feel I was lying to people. And after this, I started to talk about it also with people. And actually, recently, I came out publicly in LinkedIn about my HIV-positivism. But people try to jump from one thing to another, trying to achieve things. And this could be dangerous. And this is what happens to me. I didn't press... break, pause, and work it out. And then suddenly I did the wrong choice. I disappointed myself. I disappointed the company. I disappointed my husband. I disappointed everybody, or I thought I was disappointing everybody. And that put me in this situation. It happens a lot to LGBTQI people from my generation because we never fit in the society we were at. We always were not defined as men. We were bullied. And you always want to prove ourselves. And this constant needing to prove yourself, it can lead to a burnout. For people I recommend, check your environment. Your friends are your friends. People love you. Don't matter who you are, right? Yeah. When I came out of LinkedIn, that was on a Thursday, and I came back to Zalando on a Tuesday, lots of of people came to the office and hugged me. And they never did that before. And this is how I felt the love of people. So check your environment first, because people are going to love you the way we are. And if they don't, it's their loss. It's not your problem.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Now let's talk about the career item, which you are pointing because it's

SPEAKER_00 12:21

around your neck. Exactly. My career item is my lanyard. And so why this is important is because when I was at eBay, I had a colleague, she was called Christine. She was just the nicest person I've seen in my life. She taught me the power of love. She taught me how to understand other people. She taught me to do Good. Also to be proud of myself. And she went to Peru and she did this and she gave it back to me. She died of cancer, unfortunately, right? A person that changed my life. And I'm not a Catholic person, but she is everywhere, right? And for me, wearing this every day keeps her close to my heart and reminds me all the lessons that she taught me and actually how lucky I am to cross my path with this person. Yes, I think she'd be proud of me on the person I became. Of course, I have other friends, I have a husband, family, but she is the person that changed my life for good. She made me a better person.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Sometimes you have people who come and go in your life, but still these people stay in your life and keep this kind of memory or this impact that they gave you in your life. I understand what you mean. And I really like that you honor her and honor like the presence she had in your life and the impact she had. Do you like to, or would you like to share an example how she showed this impact?

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, I mean, of course, you know, there is always world conflict, right? And she always said to me, Daniel, you are great the way you are. You don't have to be someone else, you know, because she was herself also. That was one thing. Second thing, she told me always, you know, you go to a meeting, someone cancels the meeting, or someone doesn't meet the deadline, and you get upset with Daniel. You don't know what's happening behind the Hortides. People have situations. Put yourself in the place of this person. And this is something which I take in my daily job, right? No drama. If I have an issue with someone, I try to go straight. And I try to understand this person's experiences, right? She taught me this, to accept people how we are and to understand that not everybody is as lucky as I might be, that they might have issues that I don't know. That's why they canceled the meeting. That's why they didn't show up. So try to build this dialogue, the power of friendship. This is the tool. Two most important lessons that she taught me, actually. And

SPEAKER_01 14:42

it's a very important one. I really like that it's all things of communication, understanding. And of course, there's always situations you don't know. So you don't need to be mad. It's like it is how it is. Life goes on. Especially about

SPEAKER_00 14:52

leadership, right? Because we tend to judge our leaderships extremely. We don't know what's in the agenda, why they're asking you this, which pressure they are feeling. We tend to ask to our leads that they cannot make mistakes, but I also want to make mistakes. So they also have to make mistakes, right? I think we have to be more responsible, especially when it comes to leadership and try to build this dialogue to them, ask them questions. why, and then you understand why. And also allow them to make mistakes, especially in this change environment we're constantly at. Of course we change, but there's a reason why we change. And we need to embrace this kind of change and understand the situation of our leads. Because the higher you get, the more pressure you have, right? And we don't understand this sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

And sometimes the leads also just are the messengers. Sometimes they also are not even super involved. So

SPEAKER_00 15:41

don't judge the Popeye's cover. There you go. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

So moving on to the last one. The last

SPEAKER_00 15:53

one. Zalando Peace. So this is my cup of coffee. And this cup of coffee is as old as my Zalando history is. This cup of coffee is a cup of coffee that I bought at Einstein because my first Zalando career was at the building. BBG doesn't exist anymore. So the day of my interview... At Zalando, I said, I want to work here. I had an offer of Amazon and I said, oh no, I have to work here. I want to work at Zalando. And then I went to have a coffee with a colleague, the person that recommended me. And then I saw that if you bought this reusable cup of coffee, you get three fillings. And I said, you know what? I'm going to buy this because I belong here.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

I like how you were confident in buying it because then I can come here to Café Einstein because they're going to hire

SPEAKER_00 16:40

me. There you go. And actually it's made of coffee beans, which I like because you don't have to wash it with soap. And I hope I never lose this. Even you cannot see Einstein anymore.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

And you also still use it. So how long have you been at Zalando?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Six years. It's going to be the 1st of August. So

SPEAKER_01 16:54

soon.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Before we wrap up, I had this question for you to prepare a dare to for the listeners. So what should people dare to do more?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

I think they should dare to dream.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Right? I like it.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Dream, dream. Dreaming is good. Actually, I'm going to give an example. Recently, we have this supervisory board election. And I dare to be part of the process. I dare to get an interview. I didn't get the position. But, you know, I dare to dream. You know, and I think it's important. If you asked me 10 years ago, I would never think I would be working in the AI environment. But I was dreaming, hey, that's what I want to do. And six years later, here I am. I think dreaming is really important. Dreaming is not only for kids. And sometimes the feelings of dreaming in a situation... are much nicer than being in this situation. So we need to keep on dreaming of, you know, becoming better people, on having a world with peace, no war. and on being more inclusive in our everyday and dream to be happy, but also understanding that other people also need to be happy.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

I'm with you with the keep on dreaming. And if you fail, then you move on and go to the next dream.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Exactly. I dreamt I would be in this podcast and here I am.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Thank you so much. Likewise. Thank you all so much for listening. If you'd like to know more about careers at Zalando, go to jobs.zalando.de. You'll find that link in the show notes or check out our Instagram page inside Zalando. Our next episode is coming in two weeks and I'll be talking to another guest from Zalando about life inside the fashion and tech retail industry. And of course, there are three pieces of me.