Psychoanalytic Therapy for Adolescents with Don Schimmel

Adolescence can be a turbulent time full of big emotions, struggles with identity, and conflicts around independence. In this episode, licensed therapist Tyson Conner speaks with psychologist Don Schimmel about how psychodynamic psychotherapy can help teenagers navigate this critical developmental stage. They discuss important concepts like viewing symptoms as "coded communications," avoiding power struggles, and relating to teens through playfulness. Schimmel explains how therapy provides adolescents with a much-needed transitional relationship as they separate from dependence on parents. The therapists also talk about when psychodynamic therapy may not be the right approach, how to introduce reluctant teens to the idea of therapy, and what parents should expect from the process. If you have a troubled teen or just want to understand adolescent psychology better, don't miss this insightful chat.

Don Schimmel is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst based in Mountlake Terrace, Washington. He has over 50 years of experience working with adults, children, adolescents, families, and couples. He is a senior faculty member at the Seattle Psychoanalytic Society and Institute, teaching seminars on Self Psychology, Relational theory, Intersubjectivity, Freud, and Object Relations Theory. Don also leads classes on treating children, adolescents, and their parents and provides ongoing individual and group consultation to psychotherapists in the northwest. 

For those interested in Don's classes, he regularly offers continuing education courses in child and adolescent psychotherapy and Self Psychology through the Northwest Alliance for Psychoanalytic Study. If you have questions or would like more information, you can check the Alliance website course offerings or contact him directly at dschimmel@comcast.net

Further Learning: 

The Northwest Alliance for Psychoanalytic Study

© Relational Psych 2023

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Transcript

Tyson Conner: 0:11

Do you want to learn about psychological growth without sorting through the jargon? You're in the right place. This is the Relational Psych podcast. I'm your host licensed therapist Tyson Conner. On this show, we learn about the processes and theories behind personal growth and experience a little bit of it ourselves. This is season two, where we'll focus on the practice of relational psychotherapy, and explore concepts and theories that consider psychology from a relational lens. And please keep in mind that this podcast does not constitute therapeutic advice, but we might help you find some. And today, my guest on the podcast is Don Schimmel. Don Schimmel is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst based in Mountlake Terrace, Washington. He has over 50 years of experience working with adults, children, adolescents, families and couples. He's a senior faculty member at the Seattle Psychoanalytic Society and Institute teaching seminars on self psychology, relational theory, intersubjectivity, Freud and object relations theory. Don also leads classes on treating children, adolescents and their parents, and provides ongoing individual and group consultation to psychotherapist in the northwest. Welcome to the podcast.

Don Schimmel: 1:25

Thank you, good to be here.

Tyson Conner: 1:27

So today, we're going to be answering the question, how can adolescents benefit from psychodynamic psychotherapy? So what do you think?

Don Schimmel: 1:38

I think, well, most adolescents that are

Tyson Conner: 1:38

A couple things that I want to clarify for the struggling, well, they may not be consciously aware of it, are listeners that I think are relevant from what you've said usually struggling to separate in some ways from their parents. If you think about it, kids, for the first 11-12 years of their already. Well, also, Listeners, I might get really excited this lives are still very tied into their parents. And there is a normal, as most people know, a normal period of time when episode, because I love working with adolescents. And actually, adolescents need to separate. And there is no way of preparing adolescents for that -- some adolescents have an easier time it might be helpful for us to define what we mean by and some have a more difficult time. And so one of the ways they benefit from psychotherapy is, they have an opportunity to adolescence, especially in the context of a psychoanalytic--it's a kind of specialized relationship. It's different theory, because psychoanalysis is a developmental theory. So we than parents because unlike parents, who are invested in a parental way and are easily spooked and scared when they see think about people in terms of where they develop over the their kids moving away from them and exploring things that sometimes are a little, a little dicey. That therapists, while course of a lifespan, and what sort of processes and emotional they're certainly susceptible to having those feelings, because it's not our own kid, we're usually able to sort of step and cognitive things happen at different stages of a person's back and listen, in a very unique way. And so one way of thinking about the relationship between an adolescent and a life. That's a big part of how we think. And so adolescence is, psychodynamic therapy is that the therapist is to the adolescent, the way that a blankie is to a toddler, it's a at least to my mind, I'll give you my definition. And maybe you transit, we are a kind of transitional figure or what they call transitional object. And so it's different in that sense. Is can refine it because you've been doing this longer than me. that we helped to usher them into adulthood. But I think of adolescence, like you said, as being largely

Don Schimmel: 3:50

Absolutely. And one of the things you said, which I completely agree with is that it's a move away from the defined by the period of someone's life, where their parents to the peer group, the peer group becomes the group who sense of self and sense of identity iss transitioning from has the most amount of influence, which is why so often primarily being about their relationship to their parents, parents, understandably, when they become alarmed, or to being instead about a more independent kind of sense of concerned about their teenage kids, at times want to control self, and largely defined by their relationship to peers and who it is that the adolescent is hanging out with, because the to other cultural groups, sub cultural groups. But it's about adolescent has so much power and so much influence. Prior to adolescence, even what we call pre adolescence, which is right that process of separating from primarily being a member of the around, 10-11-12, for some people, the parents influence is family to primarily being sort of a, an adult who's defined by still the most potent. And the closer to around 14-15-16 years other relationships. old, the more parents have nothing intelligent to say to their kids. And so it's tricky when a teenager comes to see an adult therapist, often they'll say to their parents, and they'll say to the therapist, to me is, why would I want to talk to you when I can talk to my friends? And one of the ways if I can get into this a little bit is one of the ways that I respond to that is not to get into a power struggle over whether that's true or not. But to find a way of playfully validating that by saying something like why would you want to talk to other adults, that doesn't know half as much as your friends or something? And that's a way of communicating playfully, that I take you seriously. And that I respect the sort of place in your development without saying that. And usually by not getting into those sort of power struggles, what happens is that kids are able to then over time, sort of, use me as a transitional figure.

Tyson Conner: 7:33

So let's let's define that a little bit deeper, that idea -- Listener if you want to do some Googling, that idea, I believe comes initially from Winnicott. Was an object relations. psychoanalyst. And his idea of a transitional object, let me see. It's been a while since I thought about this. So again, refine my rough description. The idea of a transitional object, like the toddler's blankie is a, an object. And in this theory, an object could be a literal, physical object. And for this analogy, it'll be the blanket, but it can also be relationships, or it can be ideas, or group memberships. So any kind of thing that has a real importance in someone's mind is an object. Again, very rough definition. But a transitional object is this thing like the blankie, that is soothing, and comforting, and is experienced as both an extension of the self and separate from the self at the same kind of time. Your blankie, when you're four is your blankie. And it's a thing that you can carry around and you can throw in the crib, if you want to, or you're probably have a toddler, but at that point, you can throw under the bed, whatever. But if it's missing and gone, there can be a panic too, if you need your blank. Because it's like it's a part of you that's missing. And it sounds like what you're suggesting is that for an adolescent, they still need transitional objects as they develop their sense of identity. And they need those to be in relationships with living people, not just with objects or video games or whatever else. And that a psychotherapist is in a position to be that intentionally, someone that they can talk to, someone they can be themselves with, who's both separate from them and different from them, but also someone who can be at that close experience of self that's so vulnerable, which is really scary, especially for a lot of adolescents.

Don Schimmel: 9:48

I'm glad you also-- help me guide me back to the concept of the panic, because I have a, I have something that sort of helps to validate the very thing that you're saying. But what I wanted to add to what you're saying was that yes, it was it's Winnicott who talked about the transition object. One of the things he said about the blankie is that the blankie is imbued by the infant and child with with the power of both the self and other. That it isn't specifically a representation of say, mom. It's a representation of mom with me. It is us, it is us. And so that is the concept. And it's the relationship that it represents. And so what happens is that they are taking the relationship with them. And when they're ready to give up the blankie. Usually, whether it's well not usually -- what it suggests is that they are ready to move beyond that stage, that infant toddler stage, when they are... when they -- if you think about the infant, the infant knows no boundary, the infant is a is a -- in the mind of an infant, the infant and Mother are extensions of each other. And so there has to be some transition away from that. And if it's too abrupt, it can be traumatic and the child develops what they call an insecure attachment. And so being able to allow for, for transitional objects without questioning is one of the things that when it got really stressed is you don't you don't question the transition logic. You don't say, you know that, that, that Mikey represents us? You don't do that? Something that just simply happens. And, but what I was gonna say about the panic was that it's interesting, because while I don't work with a lot of little kids anymore, I'm mostly working with the little kids who are now teenagers. a lot of these people I started out with when they were little, but what what I noticed was that, that I imbued the toys with magical powers the same way that the kids did. And so I noticed that if I would go into my toy closet, and I couldn't find a special toy, I would find myself panicking. And I would stand back and why would I panic, these are just toys well, they're not just toys. They're imbued with magical powers. And so going back to our lessons is, one of the things that you never do with, with an adolescent, for developmental purposes is that you never draw attention to the relationship unless they bring it up. And this is different than, than work with, with, with little kids and with adults, little kids declare they love you, and how important and how they need you. Now they want to come in every day. Some parents, some adults, come to consciously value the relationship they have with us. Adolescents are -- the developmental imperative of an adolescent is I don't need adults. I need my friends. So the last thing that the last thing that I do, most adolescent therapists hopefully is we don't draw attention to the relationships. So for example, if I'm going to take a vacation, and a teenager says to me that's fine, good, I'm glad you're taking vacation, I can get some homework done or something. I don't, I don't try to process that with them. Because that's too close, I accept the idea that they don't need to be with me. And I'll give you an example of that. A great example, I once saw a years and years and years ago, I saw this older adolescent who came in, in a major, major, major crisis. And, we talked about it a little bit and then about two weeks later, he said to me, I'm feeling a lot better now. I don't think I need to come in anymore. And I said to him, you are doing a lot better. But you know what, why don't we just keep meeting anyway? And he says, okay, and then we proceeded to meet for another probably year or so. If I had said to him, you really do need me, we've really just scratched the surface here. He would have been If he would have defended his position. And it wouldn't have been something that was pathological it would be actually a good sign that he is struggling to separate from those infantile attachments.

Tyson Conner: 15:15

I feel like that's, that's such a common thing to see. And to talk to parents about, I'm imagining a listener of this episode, who maybe is a parent considering therapy for their kid. And, our topic is psychodynamic therapy for an adolescent. And so often in conversations with parents, I find myself framing the symptoms, or the behavior that's bringing them in therapy in the first place, in terms of healthy development. It feels bad, yes, it's causes trouble at home. And there's a way to think about this, in terms of healthy development, that does often boil down to just what you're talking about. The parents might know, no this is a boundary we need to hold or, Yes, this is a thing that is important, actually. But the child's response, the adolescent's response, can feel so wrong from an adult perspective, that sometimes they say is my child ok? Are they crazy?

Don Schimmel: 16:18

Well, that reminds me of another example that I think, again, validates I think the very thing you're saying is that is that some time ago -- and this actually, this comes up multiple, this has come up multiple time where, where a parent will say to me, my son or daughter seems to want to hang out more with their friends now. I keep saying, Hey, can we do this? And can we do that? And I just feel like I'm a bad parent. He doesn't love me anymore. And what I said, it's a sign actually that you're doing a good job. That most of the time if you've started out life with a child, that's good, they return to that when they feel separate, when they feel more separate. That they need to push us away in order to be themselves, which means they don't want to hang out with us. Sometimes.

Tyson Conner: 17:14

And there's some, I think the thing, I'm sort of processing this idea, as I'm saying it, but I think sometimes parents, parents, in my experience seem to understand that sometimes it sucks to grow up. Sometimes it sucks for the kid to grow up a big loss. And sometimes my job is to tell parents well, and sometimes it sucks for you when your kid grows up. Yes, that's that's part of it, too.

Don Schimmel: 17:38

And this is why it's so important. In our work, to work with parents, and this is one of the things that I do is that when a parent called and it's 99.999% of time when a parent calls me up, because they're concerned about their teenager and want to know whether I can see him or her I always say that the evaluation starts with the parents. And I will say very explicitly, that it doesn't matter how good of a relationship that I have with your son or daughter, that you and I need to establish a very good working alliance, because a lot is going to go on and you're not going to know how to understand or interpret it. You're gonna, for example, your son or daughter may come home. And you may say, Well, how'd it go in therapy? Okay, well, did you talk about anything? No. That's why it's important to have periodic contact with parents so that they can understand the meaning of a comment like that, which is different than disclosing what, what it is that the adolescent and I are talking about. So that they can understand what it means for their teenager to be in therapy. They're not going to talk about it. And they're not gonna say good things necessarily. You're gonna sort of devalue it. They're not gonna. They're not gonna necessarily hate it, but they're not gonna, they're not gonna say, Hey, thanks, Mom and Dad for doing this. It was the best thing you could ever -- at best, you're gonna get compliance.

Tyson Conner: 19:14

Compliance at best, setting expectations.

Don Schimmel: 19:18

I wouldn't say the 11 year old says to me, isn't it about time to meet with my parents? That's unusual.

Tyson Conner: 19:27

Somebody had a schedule? So let's, I'm imagining a listener who has an adolescent, who someone's recommended therapy, maybe a primary care physician or a teacher or someone at school, something like that. And they're trying to figure out okay, what kind of therapy should help my kid and most likely, they've been recommended for cognitive behavioral therapy or Dialectical Behavioral Therapy around here, maybe EMDR if the kid has a history of trauma but we each practice psychodynamic or psychoanalytic psychotherapy. How is that different from those other kinds of therapy that a parent might be trying to figure out and to choose between?

Don Schimmel: 20:14

Well, that's what a lot of parents asked me, even when the therapy is well underway, they will, they will hear something about, my friend or neighbor told me about dialectical behavioral therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy. And now, what I will say is that it really in some ways is apples and oranges and what some people really, gravitate to apples and some people gravitate to oranges. My view on it is that, as I said earlier, is what a psychodynamic therapist offers is a specialized relationship, not a set of techniques. And this is different than not only DBT, or dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, but it's also different than classical psychoanalysis. I was trained in more of the classical psychoanalytic method, which I abandoned as soon as I possibly could, because what it does is it stresses the technique, rather than the relationship. And one of the one of the historical criticisms of classical psychoanalysis that is that people will say, I know it intellectually, but I don't feel it. In order to feel things you have to do it in the context of a relationship. There is this distinction in psychoanalytic theory between a one person a two person psychology, and then and then in the beginning with Freud and, and ego psychology, which is derived from Freud is that all -- everything was considered in the client or patient and it was up to the analyst to listen and to make interpretations and if you got the correct interpretation, then that would lead to cure. And then if an analyst was trained correctly, that he or she would arrive, arrive at the same conclusion or interpretation. That is the modern view of, of psychodynamic therapy, or more relational psychoanalysis is that, that oftentimes, there are multiple interpretations. And that, for example, with a dream is a if somebody tells me a dream, I don't know what it means, but if I listen, and I talk with the client patient, together we will come up with a shared reality of what it means. Okay, how all this is different than DBT or CBT, is that to the extent that I understand is it tends to the emphasis tends to be on what you do when, when you're in a stressful period of time is that you challenge your thought processes, if CBT. If it's DBT, the emphasis on okay, what do you do instead of this other thing that you've been doing, which is self defeating, or self destructive? In relational psychodynamic therapy, whether it's with kids or adolescents or with adults, the emphasis is really on the relationship. And the belief is your assumption is, is that there are certain needs to be listened to and validated, that have never occurred. And that when that occurs, then the person lets down their defenses and begins to expand their sort of self knowledge. So though, this is a long way of saying that some people are more psychologically curious than others, some people, they don't want to be given a coping skill, they want to understand themselves, and that person is going to benefit more from a relational psychodynamic approach. And someone that says to me, what I'm really looking for, as I said, a coping skills. And then I'll say, maybe, maybe, have you checked out DBT or CBT, because that's what they do. So that's kind of the difference.

Tyson Conner: 24:56

So what I'm hearing you say is that at its core, a relational psychodynamic therapy, whether it's with an adult, or an adolescent or child is about having a relationship that functions in that sort of transitional object way, where someone can feel like they have the experience of someone being with them, of having some need met some, some anxiety soothe some thing about them that isn't seen by other people being observed or noticed or engaged with, some feeling of emotional contact, something in that long list.

Don Schimmel: 25:39

And one of the unintended consequences in explaining it that way is there may be some of your listeners who are gonna say, Well, why would I pay for a relationship? Well it's a little more complex than that. The relationship, if it's a safe relationship, if it's a relationship that doesn't repeat a trauma. And traumas are on a continuum, trauma can be very, very small I've never been understood in my life. I've always been told what I think or what I feel. The idea that they can be in a relationship with somebody who actually listens analytically. And what I mean by that, that attempts to listen without pre judgment, or doesn't move in real quickly and give advice. It allows a person then, to drop their defenses because we all have defenses against getting to know ourselves and our real feelings, especially if we've grown up in a situation where maybe it hasn't felt so safe to do that.

Tyson Conner: 26:51

So if I'm a parent listening to this, and trying to decide, okay, what kind of therapy is best for my kid? I'm imagining them hearing you describe, this could be helpful for that. And I'm imagining that person saying, Oh, no, my kid's screwed up, because I didn't meet their needs. This is my fault. This is all on me. And we were talking before about the importance of having that relationship with parents from the beginning. Can you speak to that - such a common anxiety for parents? Can you speak to that? A little bit?

Don Schimmel: 27:23

Yes, I all of the parents that I work with have gone there, and I don't know how you could not. i think all of us as parents are tempted to blame ourselves. And I think that, that, I mean, for example, I mean, I have a 31 year old. And, like all 31 year olds he struggles we all struggle with 31 It's tempting for me to blame myself, but that's a little grandiose, because part of letting go is that it's not your fault. And it's not that we don't make mistakes, but there's a certain point, I think e where in order to grow up, kids, and then later adults need to sort of take responsibility for their choices. And so, the other thing is that I tell parents is that, infants are not all born equal. And if you look at, if you look at babies in the nurseries, some induce in us certain responses that reinforce certain behaviors and others, you really have to work hard. So a lot, some of it is just genetics? And there's a way in which genetics and the environment interact, that often are missed. And so it's tempting to blame ourselves.

Tyson Conner: 29:00

I also sometimes hear parents wonder, why do I need you to do this? Why shouldn't I provide this thing? This, whatever it is, you're doing this, being with experience, shouldn't I be able to do that for my kid? And I find myself saying, well yes, and you do all the time, but also because you're the parent you can't They need to not be with you.

Don Schimmel: 29:27

That's the whole point. Is that is the parent needs to be able to let go. It's like like parents tutoring their kids? I always say the parents if you can afford to get a tutor, it's too emotionally charged. They will often behave much differently with a tutor than with the parent.

Tyson Conner: 29:51

And that's just the trying to figure out calculus, which is no small matter. We described what it is to work psychodynamically with an adolescent, this is what you can expect a psychodynamic therapist who works with an adolescent will provide. If I'm a parent listening to this episode, what kind of symptoms or behaviors or what kind of a person is psychodynamic therapy helpful for?

Don Schimmel: 30:20

Yes, good. Yes. And by the way, there, there is a contrast here where in some cases, psychodynamic is not the treatment of choice. Let me start. Can I start with that?

Tyson Conner: 30:32

Absolutely.

Don Schimmel: 30:33

If somebody, for example, calls me up and says that I have obsessive compulsive disorder, and I can't function. Okay. Unless they say to me, I've tried exposure therapy. Okay, and it didn't work. And I've tried this, and I've tried that. My, what I'm attempted to do in that case, is to say, get the symptom in control first, and then let's figure out what's driving it. It's a little bit -- it's analogous to medication. If you're so depressed, that you can't get out of bed. The first thing is to get on the medication, so that you can think about what your problem is, if you can't, if you're so depressed, that you can't get out of bed in the morning, and you can't concentrate. You can't you can't explore what's going on inside you. But that said, though, typically the parents who are calling me, are saying, I've noticed that my, my, my teenage son or daughter is... they, they used to be motivated, they used to be happy. They, they're more aloof, they're not hanging out with their friends. Some of them will say that they've alluded to, oh, I wish I were dead. That's often a red flag for parents, and will call me. There are more significant problems that, that I get calls about; I discovered my child cut themselves or it's cutting, they're using substances, they're skipping school, they're staying out all night, if they're older, they're having problems with eating, they're eating, they seem to, they seem to be getting skinny. They seem to spend a lot of time in the restroom. And I'm wondering if they're vomiting, they're purging. So there's, all of these are reasons -- or, or just, parent child problems. The child that says, you're too controlling, and let me have my freedom, that kind of thing. Those are the kinds of things that those are the kinds of symptoms -- and what I usually say the parents right off the bat, because oftentimes they frame this as bad behavior that needs to stop. I've tried everything I've punished, I've taken things away. And usually what I do is I say to them, think about a symptom, a behavioral symptom, as coded communication, a distress signal, and any distress signal, that it's the body or minds way of saying Help me. And if we don't decode that, and I say this is my job is to help decode the behavior. And then and if and if you don't decode it, if you just simply find clever ways of stopping it, what happens is that it shows up in some other area, invariably.

Tyson Conner: 33:41

I feel like a couple a couple of things that you just spoke to, I want to I want to underscore. The first is the one you just said that that idea of the behavior, think of it as a coded communication. Think of it as a way of saying, this is a problem, let's address the problem. I think that that's another thing that makes a psychodynamic therapy different from the others is that when we practice this way, we kind of read, I suppose or think about most things has a potential coded communication about what's happening on a deeper level. I remember once in a community mental health clinic where we were very focused on cognitive behavioral therapy. Somebody was talking about a client they worked with who was dealing with some psychosis and hallucinations and some delusions, and this client would say things that would be, everyone would be like, Whoa, they said that crazy. And I was in the console group. And I said, Well, maybe they're saying this. And someone in the group said, Oh, it sounds like you're interpreting their psychosis as a coded communication. Or they used another phrase for it. I don't remember what covert communication is what they said. And I remember being like, isn't that then that what we do?

Don Schimmel: 35:03

And it's exactly what we do.

Tyson Conner: 35:04

And everyone else is like no, no, that's nonsense. Psychosis is nonsense. And and that's, that's a difference. It's just a different way of thinking.

Don Schimmel: 35:13

Oh, it's like if somebody has exhibited paranoia, if you listen to the paranoia there, there's always an element of truth to it. It may be, distorted. But rather than then trying to convince the person that that they're wrong, I think our our job really is to is, is to try and understand the core concern. And that's oftentimes where the person feels understood that some of the distortion goes away, some of the exaggeration - that people sometimes need to exaggerate in order to be heard.

Tyson Conner: 35:52

Sometimes, I think about how if someone is trying to describe a really big feeling, they'll say, it felt like I got stabbed in the chest. And that's a pretty developed thing to be able to say 'it felt like' is a really complicated phrase to hold in your mind. And especially if you're an adolescent, who - I tell parents, adolescence is such a mess, because your entire nervous system is rewiring end to end. And so many things are changing so, so quickly. It doesn't feel like I'm getting stabbed in the chest. I'm getting stabbed in the chest. And a parent listening to this with a specially sensitive kid might have a familiar experience of the child saying, Stop yelling at me. When you're like, I am literally just, I'm whispering right now. What do you mean? Because they are experiencing-

Don Schimmel: 36:51

Experiencing it as yelling, exactly.

Tyson Conner: 36:55

And they're not psychotic. They're just communicating in a developmentally appropriate way. That to an adult sounds like exaggeration. The other thing you mentioned that I wanted to underscore was this idea of, this is just a general therapy advice thing that I that I try to tell people, If anyone who says my my theory and my therapy can treat and cure anybody is, I don't think practicing in a, in the best manner.

Don Schimmel: 37:27

Grandiose.

Tyson Conner: 37:29

And I love that you mentioned OCD, specifically, because kind of famously, listener, Freud wrote a really famous case study about the Rat Man who is someone who we would diagnosed with OCD today. So a sort of analysis of OCD is pretty deep in our theory, going back to the founding guy, and research has shown over and over and over again, that psychoanalysis, or psychoanalytic or psychodynamic therapy, doesn't help reduce the distressing symptoms of OCD. It can -- psychoanalysis, or psychodynamic therapy can be really helpful for making sense of a life of OCD, in the same way that a psychodynamic therapy can help people make sense of all kinds of lives. But if the goal is to make the distressing symptoms go away (which I think is an important goal) then this isn't the right treatment,

Don Schimmel: 38:25

And that's different than a person who exhibits mild OCD, because we all do. And then I think, we have the luxury of being able to explore that, but if a person's symptoms are absolutely preventing them from functioning, they need something-- I like to think of it as it's a little bit if somebody comes in and regardless of the age and is saying they want help with weight loss, they're still going to have to go exercise and they're still going to have to go perhaps to a dietician to find out right, but I can help them understand. What shall I say, in general, a psychodynamic psychotherapist can help them to understand maybe what is motivating them, but they still need to rely on so called tools out there. One of the things I wanted to, to mention also, if I don't, I don't want to get ahead of you here. I don't want to have this end without talking a little bit about a common question that that parents ask me about what happens if either parent decide, you would be a good fit for my son or daughter. But, but but I don't think my son or daughter is interested. What I will say is I will say, to go home, and the say to your son or daughter, I am not asking you to commit to this for the rest of your life, I'm asking you to go in and one or two times and make a make a judgment about whether you think it could be useful. If you break it down that way. That in 99% of cases, if you don't require that sort of commitment, adolescents will do it one time or two times. And usually, at the end of that first session, I'll say, Hey, you want to talk some more next week? Okay. And they'll do it. The other thing is, is another question that parents often ask me, is, what do you do if a kid doesn't talk? Because a lot of teenagers come in and they won't talk. I had a kid, for example, that came in and would fall asleep on me as a sign of defiance. And I decided that, and I often will tell my consultations this is that you had to learn to love defiance. If you don't like defiance, then you're going to get into power struggles. But if you enjoy, if you enjoy defiance, which I happen to do, because part of me still a teenager. Is that you go with it. So for example, with one of the kids that I thinking about he he would come in, and he would say he would be very nice, and he would smile and say hello, and then he falls asleep. And so what I decided to do is rather than panic, because all his parents are going to just love these sleeping session, is i decided i would have I would pretend I was him. And I would have a conversation with me. And I would say, I would say, I'd say let's pretend the guy's name was junior, okay? And I'd say, I'd say so Junior, how was your week? And I pretend to be Junior and I say, Oh, my, my week was just fine. How was yours, Don? And I would go on like this. And before you know it, the kids started to giggle and laugh. And before you know it, he woke up and he engaged. Another kid once decided, I don't think I want to be here, I'm gonna leave and he goes to he goes to my door. And I'm sitting here in a little bit of a quandary. Now, what in the world am I gonna do? It felt like, I can't stop him from leaving. And so what I said was playfully, I said, Well, you can leave but before you leave, I have to de-electrify the door here. And he stops and he says that door isn't electrified? And I say oh, no, no, no, no, it is-- now, by the way, this is not a psychotic kid. So he was able to join the play. And so we spent, the first half of the session playing, and I kept looking for the button. So I could turn off the -- another, I'll give you one more example, another kid I loved came in and fell asleep on me, refused to talk. And so what I did, I happen to know her phone number. And so I texted her, and she woke up. And then she texts me back. And then she falls back asleep. And then she texts me back. And before you know it, and this is the beauty of sort of allowing defiance and not getting threatened by before you know it, she started texting me pictures, very serious pictures of what it feels to her based on things she'd found off the internet. So there are all kinds of ways to deal with, with kids who were resistant to therapy. But you kind of have to enjoy

Tyson Conner: 44:07

I feel like a couple. I keep coming up with it. two things I want to talk about. But the there's two concepts that feel really important for work with adolescents based off of what you're describing. And the first is you came up at the very beginning. And then again now, which is the idea of a power struggle, and how power struggles are to be avoided in therapy. Power struggles are inevitable in adolescence, they need power struggles with parents, with teachers, sometimes with police, or just the security at the local QFC or whatever. But adolescents are figuring out what it means to have the power they have and some of that's social power and some of that's physical power. And it's a messy confounding thing. And what I'm hearing you say repeatedly is you avoid those.

Don Schimmel: 45:01

I absolutely avoid it. Because otherwise I'm just going to do what the parents are doing and parents, for parents to have me do with their kids what they're doing, they would have a right to say, what's the difference? I try to share that concept with parents where I will say to the parents is think about a power sharing arrangement, I'll say, is that and you can start that actually in toddlerhood? You do that in some people sa well how in the world can you share power with a toddler? Well, the way is done with a, with a toddler is often, you give them a choice, you can go to bed in five minutes and go to bed in 10 minutes, and they'll choose 10. It's more sophisticated with teenagers. And for sure, because they'll see through it very quickly, and so the power struggles that come up is not so much about, what, what they're going to do or not do, but who's going to prevail in the session, we're going to talk or we're gonna not talk, and, and so, and so one of the ways that I give kids power, or share power with them, is I give them plenty of freedom to be with however they want to be, and to accommodate, to their sort of world view of the adults are stupid, and that we don't know anything. And rather than insisting that, oh, you should listen, I've been, I've been here, and I know how it works in life?

Tyson Conner: 46:40

Let me tell you, when you get older.... A thing to avoid. The other thing that feels really important is what I think playfulness, and and how that stands in contrast to playing. Because sometimes you do play with adolescents. Sometimes you play with adults. But there's this, this playfulness that's more of a persistent attitude. That feels really important. Which at least in how I think about it. Playfulness is a great way of kind of taking the edge off a little bit. Because you're dealing oftentimes with emotional experiences and affects that are really, really overwhelming and really, really powerful. And playfulness around them, allows us to speak honestly about them. And even get right up next to them without being absorbed and obliterated.

Don Schimmel: 47:40

Exactly. Play. I'm glad you brought that up. Because because one of the things that Freud said there's a difference between the difference between play and reality is that play and reality are serious. But, but reality is real. And in the, in the, in the context of playing is is things are "as if," and so for example, I will often be self effacing and pretend to be sort of incompetent. But it's more as if I'm that way. I'm not really? Because there is a certain competence. The paradox is that if you, if you're very consciously engaged in a certain amount of self effacing, a mild amount, it's the paradox there is there is a certain level of competence that you're exhibiting, but you're pretending to be incompetent. And it's serious. It's serious stuff, but it's not real. And that's what the difference was, according to Freud, between between playing and non playing, is that it's not about reality, it's not about seriousness, it's about what's real and what's not real. That's one of the reasons why when we watch a movie or read a book is, is that we're suspending disbelief. We know what's real. We know what's real. They know, they know what's real, but we're pretending as if it is. With a young child. With with a young child, it's more imaginative play. And you incorporate objects into the into the play. This doll, this mother doll, and this father doll. We both know they're not real, but we pretend as if they were real, and this is as if they had a voice.

Tyson Conner: 49:40

And as you were describing that I was thinking about how much of adolescence is about playing the as if and playing as if they already are the thing that they're going to grow into? I really like speaking of movies, I really liked the movie Rebel Without a Cause as a brilliant little encapsulation of adolescence. And it fits at the time there was a cultural obsession with teenager-ness and James Dean is an incredible actor. But this, the scene that comes to my mind is the scene where these three sort of disenfranchised kids who are somewhere between child and an adult whose parents treat them in some ways too much like children and other ways too much like adults, go to an abandoned house, and they play house together. Where, the James Dean pretends to be the father and Natalie Wood pretends to be the mother. And the other kid pretends to be the child. And they're all taking on in this playful way, these roles that they're actively trying to grow into at the same time. And I think, I think there's a lot of adolescence that's about that. And sometimes the line between am I playing as if, or am I really being this is deeply confusing. And I think that that stance of playfulness sort of helps keep it safe. Keep it safe enough to explore.

Don Schimmel: 51:14

The same way that when kids play with army trucks or with dolls, they're suspending disbelief. It gives them an eye, it gives them an opportunity to explore possibilities. And I think that's also applicable to adults is oftentimes, when an adult comes in and says, I could never do such and such I say, well, let's pretend for a moment. What if you were, well, how would it start? We don't have to do it or anything. But let's pretend for a moment that you were going to say that -- it might be something as somebody once said to me, I could never I could never get a divorce. She was miserable in her family. I said, Well, if you weren't gonna get one, what would be the first step you would take? So in that sense, that's playing with possibilities. It's moving beyond the concrete. You know that you can do it. By the way I wanted to mention to you -- totally out of sequence. But, we were talking very early in this podcast about, about adolescence and separation. And toddlerhood. That there is a very famous author Peter Blas, who actually designated adolescence as the second separation and individuation stage. The first being toddlerhood.

Tyson Conner: 52:48

For our listeners who might be less less steeped in the developmental stages of psychoanalysis, in the first separation individuation stage is about is about a child experiencing themselves as an individual at all. Before that you're just your relationships. And then you start to realize, oh, wait, Mom and Dad aren't in my head. I have a whole separate being. Whoa, and adolescents are doing that again.

Don Schimmel: 53:16

Yes, you're doing it again. They're refining it. Margaret Mahler wrote a book in the 70s called The Psychological Birth of the Human Infant. And she goes through, you may know about this as a series of stages, beginning with a symbiotic or essentially a symbiotic stage. And then the stages of, of coming into their own, and being able to what she called achieve the stage of object constancy, which was, which basically means I can carry around the relationship in my head, I don't have to be physically present.

Tyson Conner: 53:58

Oh, boy. And that ties into a lot of the work that we do as therapists and a lot of how people grow. And I feel like we could talk about this for another four hours easily. And I want to respect your time and our listeners ears. If a listener has heard this and would like to find you, either a parent who's looking for therapy for a kid or another professional who's looking for consultation, or to take a class, where can you be found?

Don Schimmel: 54:31

I can be found very easily by emailing me. Should I give an email address?

Tyson Conner: 54:39

And it will also be linked in the show notes. You can say that as well.

Don Schimmel: 54:42

It's Dschimmel@comcast.net. They're also welcome to call me at (425) 775-2205. Welcome to call me even if it's just to get a referral. Oftentimes people will call me, I won't have an opening necessarily, but I'd be happy to, to hook them up with somebody that I trust that's good. And that's a lot of what I've been doing lately is just simply helping people get connected with people that are like minded.

Tyson Conner: 55:17

Especially as we're coming out of the pandemic and sort of moving into whatever stage we're in now, a lot of a lot of new issues are coming up.

Don Schimmel: 55:26

If they are also interested in taking a course. I'm, I am going to be in fact, it's listed right now. It just came out last week. I'm teaching a class through the Northwest Alliance for psychoanalytic study. It's the third or fourth time that I've taught it. It's called -- this isn't specific to adolescents, but it's called working with narcissistically vulnerable clients through the lens of self psychology. But I'm also in the spring, I'm slated to teach a course on how to work with adolescents. Parents, also through the Alliance also to the alliance.

Tyson Conner: 56:14

Okay, awesome. And that's, that's where we met - the class you taught at The Alliance. And that was in 2020. So most of our conversation was how do we even do this now that we can't see each other? That was an interesting time. But anyway, thank you. Again, thank you for coming on the show. And I hope we have you back at some points because I feel like we could go anywhere.

Don Schimmel: 56:45

Anytime. Yes. Pleasure.

Tyson Conner: 56:51

Special thanks to Don Schimmel for coming on to this episode of the podcast. Don's email address is in the show notes. If you'd like to take a class from Don, he often teaches at the Northwest Alliance for Psychoanalytic Study, which is also linked in the shownotes. The Relational Psych Podcast is a production of Relational Psych, a mental health clinic providing depth oriented psychotherapy and psychological testing in person in Seattle and virtually throughout Washington state. If you're interested in psychotherapy or psychological testing for yourself or a family member, links to our contact information are in the show notes. If you are a psychotherapist and would like to be a guest on the show or a listener with a suggestion for someone you'd like us to interview. You can contact me at podcast@relationalpsych.group. The relational psych podcast is hosted and produced by me. Tyson Conner. Sam Claney is our executive producer with technical support by Ally Raye and the team at VirtualAlly. Carly Claney is our CEO. Our music is by Ben Lewis. We love you buddy.