The Taboo of Grief, Death, and Dying with Rachel Stapleton

In this episode of The Relational Psych Podcast, Dr. Carly Claney sits down with Rachel Stapleton, a licensed independent clinical social worker specializing in grief, loss, chronic illness, and end-of-life care. Together, they explore the pervasive discomfort surrounding conversations about death, dying, and grief in our society. Rachel shares her insights from years of experience as a hospice social worker and discusses the parallels between birth and death, emphasizing the importance of normalizing and honoring both transitions.

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Claney and Rachel delve into the nuances of grief, from sudden loss to chronic illness and complicated grief. They discuss the importance of validating all expressions of loss and bereavement, and offer guidance on how to navigate the complex emotions that arise during these challenging times. Rachel also shares valuable advice on preparing for end-of-life, emphasizing the gifts we can give our loved ones by clearly communicating our wishes and taking care of legal matters in advance.

This episode offers a compassionate and empowering perspective on confronting our own mortality and supporting others through grief. Whether you have personally experienced loss or want to be better equipped to support loved ones facing end-of-life, this conversation provides a roadmap for cultivating meaning, finding peace, and fostering connection in the face of life's most difficult transitions.

Links: 

https://www.stapletoncounseling.com/

© Relational Psych 2023

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Transcript

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:00

If you want to learn about psychological growth without getting lost in complicated language, you're in the right place. This is the Relational Psych Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Carly Claney, licensed psychologist and the founder and CEO of Relational Psych. On this show, we learn about the processes and theories behind personal growth. Yeah, I know today we're going to be talking about why don't we talk about death, dying and grief more? And I'd love to hear a little bit about that of framing out this conversation. So where do I go? Who do I go to? Like, how does this work? And there wasn't really much of a road map I feel like there is for most things in life. And then I found myself in grad school and there were very few classes you can choose in the masters of social work program. Yeah, well, that's it makes a lot of sense. I think, especially when we have our own experiences, it leads us to sometimes just be more curious about what is that? If I'm struggling with something, or if I'm having this experience, it fosters this more natural curiosity about it. But that's really striking to hear that even people who are in similar training, similar care for, I want to help people. I want to learn how to counsel or support people in different life situations. And yet the ideas around grief make people uncomfortable. And you said palliative care. Can you talk a little bit about more specifically what that is?

Rachel Stapleton: 0:04

Yeah, a standard set and approach to a school of thought around talking to people about end of life, what goes into it, kind of normalizing it and really trying to empower them to have their own voice over life. There's a lot happening you can't control right now, and it's pretty terrible, but here are some things you can and let's really be intentional around talking about having conversations about maybe helping foster conversations in your own family because it might even be hard to have a conversation like this with a spouse, right? But what are your thoughts around why that is? It's very striking. And we're really good at celebrating one and being excited, normalizing the excitement around one. And then we just sort of, as a society, kind of just you know, avoid. We're just like, oh, I don't really know how to do that or what to say or, you know, so I'll just do nothing. And it really make something that's already extremely isolating and painful and heavy that much more isolating people and heavy for people because they don't want to make people uncomfortable. Right? And then they feel sort of paralyzed too I don't even know what to do with this. And it's happening to me or it's happening to my loved ones. And we have examples of other cultures in the world that do a lot better. But I feel like on a smaller scale even parents, right? I even have other therapists who are friends who are like, I don't know what to tell my kids about this relative who's dying. And I'm like, you talk to them about all kinds of hard stuff and uncomfortable things. And I'm like, it's okay. I mean, obviously the circumstances dependent, right? But if it's a very peaceful just like the circumstances we dependent around a birth, if there's something traumatic happening, right? Having them feel included in the process actually ends up answering a lot of questions.

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:09

Yeah. We have such a script for them. That's what we see. And it's just easier to mimic that or copy that again and again. I'm curious. I like that you brought up the. The piece about it doesn't have to be traumatic or there's a context around it. Obviously any kind of loss can bring up intensity of feelings and the way our body or mind's experience that can still feel traumatic. I mean, the actual I'm in the final stages of dying were peaceful. And maybe that just happened to be my set of patients that I worked with all those years and my experience. But were there were certainly like circumstances and things outside of. The actual death that weren't peaceful. And that's a lot of experience. And I hear you saying it's not always the case. And yet having that be an option. And as you were saying that, I was thinking too, there's so many just life events or life stressors that we experience and people are just going to experience them differently. Something might happen to someone and it is just going to feel differently. I didn't cry. I don't want to go to the funeral. And, or the other one. I feel relieved, Rachel. I feel, oh, right, I'm not staying up around the clock for weeks on end at my mom's house, and I can get back to the energy of my own house. There's this relief component that I feel. That's icky. You don't miss that. We'd be having a completely different conversation. Right now, as a therapist, if you were like, well, this person was really awful to me, but I really wish they were here. It sort of fits logic. I mean, it makes sense. Why? I mean, and it's okay. Right. Again, it comes back to that.

Rachel Stapleton: 0:14

Yeah. Yeah. There's actually a really good book. I read a few months ago, Jeanette McCurdy. She was like a childhood actress. Something about, I don't miss my mom or I, yeah, the title, which, yeah, I was like, that's ballsy. And I think I love the book already.

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:15

This is how it would be okay to follow that path, just like any other path might be, might make sense. And it also sounds like there could be just a lot of variations. It's not going to be only happy that my mom dead, my mom is dead or only sad that my mom is dead. I think that there's room to feel mixed about it and maybe go through seasons of feeling different things at different times. So I think just being intentional, committed to be part of that reflection on your own discomfort. What about death or dying or existential things or any part of what we talked about, right? What about that makes me uncomfortable and how can I work on that to show up better for the people around me? Okay, I listen to a podcast. I'm like, now, what do I do with this? I don't have a lot of time or right. It takes time to integrate things, to change behaviorally. So I think starting small like that would be helpful anyways. And then I think about the people in your life. Think about the people who are experiencing grief, who are facing end of life or death or dying, and it could look a lot of different ways, right? It could be like a mom who just miscarried. It could be a pet. It could be a job. It could be a grief has a lot of even in parenting, like the loss of your dreams for your kiddo. If you spend a long time dreaming about things for your kid and then other things happen. We have room for someone else's experience. It doesn't have to feel the same as ours. But. We've had that experience of being curious and being open. And so I think it then allows for in a relationship there to be like we're holding this together where I'm able to ask you, how do you actually feel?

Rachel Stapleton: 0:19

I should have consulted Google. That would have been a good preparation for this. So I think about it what I was saying earlier in a broad sense, right? Someone's experienced, I associate it with loss, right? Someone's experienced a loss and grief is sort of this process that we see happen after a loss.

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:20

I think that's a really important distinction, that it's both a feeling state, like grief is a feeling, and it's also a process, and Yeah.

Rachel Stapleton: 0:21

Yes, I see that all the time. Yeah, I've had clients over the years where they start out as grief clients, feel like that's under control, want to transition to talk about other things and working on other things that we do that. But it's still there, sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly, but I'm checking in on it and yeah, I mean, it definitely comes up and I you talked about Christmas.

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:22

Yeah, you touched a little bit right there on diagnosis day, which I think for so many people can be connected to sickness or illness that leads to death. It can also lead to more of a chronic illness and then the grief that comes along with that. I don't want to move too quickly away from loss of life or, but I wonder if you can speak a little bit to the grief that comes from more of the chronic issues or loss. And then even if you do have the ability to get out, the things you like to do, connect with the people who you care about and love. It often gets in the way and there can be flare ups depending on the situation diagnosis, so it's this I was thinking about it as this incredibly painful kind of like almost begins to feel like this hamster wheel you're on where you're always adjusting your expectations. That seems like a really important point that it's not that by pressing into the grief of it, processing it, it's not making it bigger. It's just uncovering what's already there. Maybe it makes it bigger in a way that you're feeling it now you're having to actually hold it. But Yeah, that feels like a really important point to know. It could just could be lots of things that are chronic But I think by virtue of that word, there is definitely some grief and loss there. And again, people process things in different ways as far as, like, how to support people. I think another big tool is you just ask, right? You just ask, like, how can I help? So there's going to be either a lifetime of it or just a really long years ahead of iterations of the experience. And so you might come around. It's reminding me, I actually don't know if I shared this with you, but right during COVID, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And Went through treatment and come out of it and kind of in a really good place with health, but continuing to do the preventative care for recurrence. Now, these are my experiences. How do I open myself up to what I'm feeling about it? But then also. renegotiating with myself, whether how your body is feeling, whether what years you're living. I had a recent appointment where it. The age for me was one of the things getting cancer at such a young age combines like well, youth and health and all that goes along with that. And I think some people are like, what's grief, right? Or I guess it's a lot like what's grief and what's depression or what's grief. And there can be a lot of overlap for sure. I think it's a nuanced question, so there's probably a much more eloquent, nuanced answer, but I'm trying to like keep it simple and easy as I think about it a lot more okay, if someone has depression, we have the criteria for that. And so sometimes we give it time and you just see like how someone's handling it. But there's a really like specific part around the complicated group part where there, you often see like this intense yearning that just doesn't lessen. Or doesn't ever go back and forth either. Different people have different things to process, right? Some people are like, I'm really big into wellness and health and are like, I did all the things and it didn't give me what I wanted. So there's a lot to process there. I think the expectations that you highlighted are probably the hardest, right? I get to be sad about that's okay, right? Or of course I'm sad that I'm, you breastfeeding now, but it feels different than I always thought it would because I have these implants or something for me now, right? Maybe there's some loss there. But just Validating that for yourself. Yeah, that's hard. But it can feel different and a little bit more strange with ourselves, but it's huge. I'm not able to think differently about it. Time lines, I don't think really match for anybody, but maybe you've been here longer than you want to be. And it seems yeah, this is probably longer than it has to be. Not saying that you're going to feel completely fine or you should ever feel back to normal, but I'm glad that you're bringing up those words because I think that those can be things that people can feel uncertain how to judge for themselves and really good things to consider and then maybe bring to a professional to, to ask that, like, where do you think I'm at with this? Well, I'm curious if there's anything else you want to say about chronic illness or complex grief, something like that. So like that, but really honing in on what is it that they are willing to do around like taking good care of themselves? Cause it keeps the complex group. And sometimes it's just like, all they can focus on is the earning. There is nothing beyond this. This is my life now. And so as a clinician, helping them find ways to see it's not, but it's really feels like it is.

Rachel Stapleton: 0:36

Yeah, for sure. And I think even outside of complex grief, like for all of us, like even what you were sharing too with what you've been through and like how do I constantly and sort of consistently keep adjusting expectations I didn't even know I had until they're just right there in front of me and Right, right. And that's, that is the human experience. And it's confusing. It's real confusing. I feel like it's confusing for me and I know all this stuff, so I think wow, this is it's rough. The mind can be. A rough place sometimes, and you can preemptively set the stage for yourself or people you love, or people you care about in a healthy way. It's a reality that everyone has to think about at some point, if not for your entirety of your life. What are some ways of building some self awareness around that, thinking about it tolerating some of the feelings that come up from that? Do you have any thoughts there? You could think of any sort of prompt. What do I hope the people around me feel from that experience or I think about a lot too, being able to give gifts to our loved ones. And I think some big gifts that we can, again, have to start with ourselves and our own self reflection, here's all the things that I want, and that I may be important things that I don't want. You don't have to be like me. You don't have to be like excited to get on a podcast to talk about death, okay? But, you know, that's just my quirkiness. But you certainly get to a place where you can tolerate the discomfort in a way that feels healthy, right? So you're not, it's not so uncomfortable that then you need to engage in avoidance. Okay, comfortable. Then let's talk to someone. Let's get you some help. It's not like it needs to happen overnight or in a year or 10 years, but there's something there, right? There's something like fear oriented there. That is pretty big. That could you could probably use some help unpacking. I'm also thinking that you might be a little bit more clear headed if you're able to make some of these decisions when the intensity of grief is not intermixed with it, but rather this almost like hypothetical grief, or just. The existential feelings about it you might, yeah, have more ability to think critically about those things. This is really how I think about it because, yeah, it's overwhelming as a caregiver, right? It's overwhelming as someone experiencing a significant medical diagnosis, whatever that may be. And yeah, it really honors that relationship, right? And that there's trust there that you love me so much.

Dr. Carly Claney: 0:44

yeah, well, and as you say that, I'm realizing we haven't really talked about the suddenness that sometimes death just happens. It's not there's no preparation. So similar. That'll be outside of what we can talk about today. But. To know that to do this prep work ahead of time, it might help in the suddenness where you had no idea this was coming and your family didn't either. Relational Psych is a mental health group practice providing depth oriented psychotherapy and psychological testing in In person in Seattle and online in Washington State. If you're interested in mental health care for yourself or a family member, please reach out. Our website is relationalpsych. group.