Healing Through Connection: EFT for Couples and Attachment Styles with Rachel Orleck

In this episode of the Relational Psych Podcast, host Dr. Carly Clayney interviews Dr. Rachel Orleck, a licensed psychologist specializing in couple's counseling and infertility. They explore patterns that impact relationships, focusing on the principles of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Dr. Orleck explains how attachment styles, trauma, and past experiences influence adult relationships. The conversation delves into negative patterns like assumptions and blame, as well as positive behaviors such as gentleness, vulnerability, and mindfulness. They provide insights into how couples can improve their connection and move towards secure attachment, emphasizing the value of therapeutic support in this journey.

Links: 

https://www.northseattlecouplescounseling.com/

IG: @drrachelorleck

LinkedIn: drrachelorleck

Facebook: www.facebook.com/drrachelorleck

Facebook: www.facebook.com/meaningfuljourneycounseling

Books: 

Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson,

Love Sense by Sue Johnson

Workbook: An Emotionally Focused Workbook for Couples by Kallos-Lilly & Fitzgerald

© Relational Psych 2023

W: www.relationalpsych.group
E: hello@relationalpsych.group
P: (206) 589-1018

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Carly Claney: If you want to learn about psychological growth without getting lost in complicated language, you're in the right place. This is the Relational Psych Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Carly Clayney, licensed psychologist and the founder and CEO of Relational Psych. On this show, we learn about the processes and theories behind personal growth.

Please keep in mind that this podcast isn't a substitute for therapeutic advice, but we're here to point you in the right direction.

Today on the podcast, we have Dr. Rachel Orleck. She is a licensed psychologist and the owner of Meaningful Journey Counseling in Seattle, Washington. She specializes in working with couples and individuals on relationship, infertility, and perinatal issues. Rachel, thank you so much for coming today.

Rachel Orleck: Thank you so much for having me. This is really exciting. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, [00:01:00] absolutely. The topic that we're talking about are the patterns that help and hurt connection in relationships. So I'm so excited to dive right in and I'd love to hear where these questions are coming from, what's guiding the conversation today.

Rachel Orleck: Sure. My background is in emotionally focused therapy, and I've been doing that work for about seven years, almost exclusively now. And EFT is really based on attachment. And that is the bond between. To people, we often think about attachment when it comes to a parent and a child. I think that's what people are most familiar with.

Where this child is born and they're relying solely on their parents and the attachment bond is the most important thing in the world for them to survive. So clothing, Shelter, food and love, which is a need for babies and for [00:02:00] adults as well. So when EFT talks about attachment, we're talking about that need, that bond between two adult partners romantic partners.

And we need that bond as much as we need the air that we breathe. And so when something happens where we feel disconnected from our partner, we tend to react in a very few number of ways, or we react in the stress response, otherwise known as fight or flight. 

Carly Claney: It sounds like all of that, the script of how we're responding, how we're interacting in these dynamics as adults, they're really coming from how we were raised our experiences really early in childhood.

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, there's a lot of programming that we have from that moment that we're born. So it's how our parents are reacting to us, how they're responding to our needs and our [00:03:00] cries, the culture that we're raised in school. All of these things impact how we reach out for other people, other important people in our lives.

And if something disrupts the secure attachment, where we feel really safe and we can take risks in our life, then we start to react in more of what we'll call anxious ways or avoidant ways. 

Carly Claney: I'm hearing that there's secure attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant, so you're starting to describe the different ways that we have those bonds with other people.

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. Those different ways are ways that we handle stress. So somebody who's secure will handle stress in a little bit more of a calm way. Very few of us are strictly secure attachment. Our upbringing doesn't happen [00:04:00] perfectly. So we tend to have a little bit at the very least of something a little bit more avoidant.

And that's. just how we handle stress. We'll either go towards something, and that could look like getting angry, it could be criticism, it could be what I call investigating or questioning, poking at our partner to try to get a reaction so that we know we're not alone, we're cared about and loved, or it could be getting really quiet and shutting down, pulling away, and we do that to protect ourselves or even protect the relationship from feeling even more disconnected. 

Carly Claney: So taking that step back, creating more space because of the fear of that not repair, the opposite of repair, fear of that rupture that happened there? 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, when we get scared about not being connected to our partner, sometimes the person who is more [00:05:00] avoidant will shut down because they're so overwhelmed by that fear, or they feel helpless to make a change or make it better.

And so they go into light or freeze. As opposed to fight, which is a little bit more on the anxious side. 

Carly Claney: That's what you said, like the turning towards either with bringing some anger, bringing some investigation or bringing the anxiety. I'm so overwhelmed by this. I need to hear from my partner. I need them to soothe me so intensely.

Rachel Orleck: But unfortunately on the other side, it looks like threat when we see somebody angry, we feel threatened and our alarm bells are going off and it feels really dangerous. 

And then on the other side, when we're looking at somebody who's more avoidant, it looks like they don't care about us. 

Carly Claney: And how often are people paired in a relationship where there's one that's going to be more anxious and one more avoidant and then they're just ping ponging off of each other all the time?

Rachel Orleck: [00:06:00] Almost always. Even if you have two people who are more anxious or two people who are more avoided, one person is going to be stronger in one category or the other. One's going to be a little bit more anxious than the other one, or one's going to be a little bit more avoidant. And so they start this pattern that in EFT, we call the pursue or withdraw pattern.

But I really like to think about it as protest. So anxious protest, protesting the disconnection. Or protect, protecting yourself from getting hurt, protecting the relationship from being more disconnected. 

Carly Claney: And which one's which, protect and protest? 

Rachel Orleck: Protest will be more of the anxious, the pursuer. Hey, I'm really angry, but that's because I feel disconnected from you.

And I want to reconnect. I'm protesting that I feel distant from you and I can't access you. And then the protect is the avoidant or the withdraw [00:07:00] partner. Hey, I'm really overwhelmed. I'm really sad. I'm scared that this is going to get worse, that I'm going to get hurt. I'm going to say something that'll hurt you.

So I'm going to withdraw and shut down. 

Carly Claney: And then I've also heard that with trauma survivors or people with more, intense attachment experiences when they're really little that there's another category. Can you talk really briefly about that? 

Rachel Orleck: It's a little bit more of back and forth between anxious and avoidant.

So somebody who has experienced trauma may initially appear to be the anxious partner. So they go towards, and then All of a sudden their partner is there and they feel really vulnerable and then they're like, Oh no, this is too much. And then they shut down, 

which of course looks really confusing on the outside, but it's their reaction to the trauma where they both [00:08:00] need that connection and are scared by it.

Carly Claney: A lot of that ambivalence back and forth between. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. 

Carly Claney: You started with the idea of secure attachment, and I'm curious with this framing, what would that look like? And I think we'll spell that out more as we keep talking, but what's a brief look at that? 

Rachel Orleck: With secure attachment, we have a safe and secure home base.

So our relationship feels safe and secure and from there we feel comfortable exploring and being playful and we can go out and do our own thing and then come back because we know we're safe at home. When we feel scared, we can go to that safe place and talk to our partner about it. 

When we encounter conflict, it's scary, but it doesn't feel like it's world ending. We have a little bit more confidence of Okay, we'll get through this. [00:09:00] This is really hard right now. Secure attachment doesn't mean that we don't experience stress or fear. It just means that we are able to deal with it, in a slower, less risky way.

Carly Claney: I'm thinking of like a container, like a big barn is the image in my mind where there's like a roof on top. So maybe something's happening inside, there's disruption. But as you said, it's not world changing. You don't feel as threatened. Like everything is uprooted. Everything is at risk of you're losing your sense of safety.

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, that's a lot what it's like. I always go back to the child example, because it's so clear in our mind when we're thinking about kids, but when kids are securely attached, you can bring them to the playground and they start walking away from you and then they turn and they're making sure you're still there.

And they're like, okay. And then. The looking again, [00:10:00] and when they feel secure, they start to realize, okay, she's not going anywhere. He's not going anywhere. So I'm just gonna, there I go. I'm going to play on the slide. And we do that with our relationships, but it looks a little different. It doesn't mean we're running away from our partner.

We're actually feeling safer to go towards them in times of feeling disconnected or times that. I would classify, I feel risk. 

Carly Claney: Yeah you mentioned this before it doesn't mean that there's not conflict, or like you just said, there's not disconnection, but in that experience of disconnection, you're turning towards your partner.

You're bringing it to them. You're wanting it to be part of the repairing of that connection versus In anxious or avoidant, really having a hard time holding on to that connection. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. And yeah, in anxious or avoidant, you get scared that connection won't be there. If you mess up, it won't be there.

[00:11:00] And I think that there's the intellectual part of a lot of couples that are like, Oh yeah, my husband or my wife, my girlfriend, my boyfriend aren't going anywhere. But that doesn't always translate to what I call our emotional brain, which is a deeper, it's still rational, but it's not rational in the way that we think of our intellectual brain being.

It's very emotional and it is informed by our programming from childhood.

Carly Claney: even at a neuron level, I think there's a way that the brain can be programmed that way, and then we bring that into adulthood. And so it's still, I like that you said that it's still rational, it's still based on something, and yet it's a old script or it's something that's not necessarily matching the current experience.

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. It's very much like when a soldier comes back from war and they hear a loud sound and they hit [00:12:00] the deck. It absolutely makes sense for them to do that in the context of war. When they're doing that in their backyard, it doesn't make as much sense on that conscious level, but of course inside it makes a lot of sense that they would do that.

Carly Claney: Yeah, it's such a safety reaction at that point. 

Rachel Orleck: And our brain is just built to deal with all these different kinds of stress. We have the emotional center of our brain. And when things feel high risk, it goes directly there and we react in a moment. We don't even think about it.

You're driving your car and you're veering off the road and all of a sudden you realize it and you swerve to get back on the road. If you took the time to think, Oh shoot, I'm swerving off the road. I better turn my wheel. You would be in the ditch already. 

Carly Claney: Ah, huh. Yeah, that's so automatic. 

Rachel Orleck: Yes, so what we want to do in [00:13:00] relationships, because it feels like that, it feels like we're about to go in the ditch, but we actually have a lot more space.

So what we're doing in the couples work Is trying to slow that process down so that we can actually process first through the front of our brain, which is more the thinking the what we call executive processing, but it's the planning, the conscious decision making part of our brain. And then it goes to the emotional and we can process that emotional piece and then we react.

Carly Claney: Yeah, so it doesn't sound like you're cutting out the emotion, but maybe there's a deprioritization of it in the immediacy where you try to keep the front of your brain online so that you're not just out of your emotional brain. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, I, I don't know if I quite describe it as deprioritizing the emotion, it's actually our biggest priority, but we want to figure out a way to share it with our partner [00:14:00] so that they can receive it.

Because what so often happens in the communication process is we are missing each other. And then that's when threat happens. Sometimes that's when we feel disconnected. And we start to get into this pattern of protecting ourselves, avoidant and anxious. And we start pushing each other further away rather than bringing each other close, which is our ultimate goal.

Carly Claney: How do you do that when you're so scared? 

Rachel Orleck: Luckily, that's where a couples therapist comes in, where there's that third party to navigate that and create safety in the room for them to practice. And then we're going deeper and having more vulnerable conversations, which builds more trust.

They practice at home. It doesn't always go perfectly. That's expected and normal. We talk about it and process it in [00:15:00] session and over time, they're developing these tools in a very experiential way so that they can go home and take these risks that may come a little bit more naturally to somebody who we would consider securely attached, but they're taking these risks with their partner and they're experiencing their partner staying with them and holding them and being empathic and validating.

Instead of dismissive or run away or get angry with them. 

Carly Claney: I love that word experience that you said a few times there. It seems like that's really how the change happens by having new experiences and even as scary and risky as that feels. It seems like the only way to reprogram or have a new way of being.

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. A lot of couples will come into my office and they're like, in essence, what's the formula? Like, how do we do [00:16:00] this? Yes. Give me a list of skills and that's just not how this process works. I know that there are some therapies out there where you can list off the skills, but this is something that's really develop through experience because that's the only way it translates into our emotional brain. Otherwise, it stays very intellectual. 

And the only way to change an insecure attachment, so anxious or avoidant, to a more secure attachment with a partner is through that experience. 

Carly Claney: Yeah I just see it like sitting on top if it's not able to be experienced and make its way into its emotional brain it's just like this paper on top of you that's not really making any room, any change. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. That's it in a nutshell. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really helpful context then for thinking now about patterns that are both helpful and [00:17:00] hurtful in, in connecting. So which one do you want to start with?

Rachel Orleck: Let's start with the patterns that are hurtful and then we can end on a more positive note. So the first one I want to talk about is making assumptions. So in relationships, we make tons of assumptions and it's part of that programming that we've been talking about. It's how we make sense of our world and It's how we generalize one unsafe situation to another to keep us safe.

So it's a really important part of our humanity and how we have survived as a human race for so long, but it can be really hurtful and dangerous in a couple's relationship. When we make assumptions about our partner's intention, what they meant to say, and we're in essence, filling in gaps that we don't have access to [00:18:00] in our partner.

Carly Claney: What does that look like not having access to it? 

Rachel Orleck: so it's the Iceberg analogy so you see just a little bit of your partner up top on the surface. And underneath There's just this well of parts that you can't see you can't see what they're thinking about You can't see what they're feeling.

You can't see their intention All happens on the surface Their tone, their body language, what they say, what, how they act, but we're seeing all of those things through our own experience, not their experience. So one person or multiple people can see the same event and experience it very differently.

And so when we make assumptions about our partner's intention, often we're assuming the negative because that's how humans are programmed to stay safe. [00:19:00] 

If one day we eat a red mushroom and it makes us sick, we're never going to eat a red mushroom again. We may never eat a mushroom again.

Carly Claney: Yeah, that generalization. 

Rachel Orleck: So we stay safe through that, but It also means that we're not able to connect with our partner or be more curious about what they mean because it feels dangerous in that moment. 

Carly Claney: It takes the heightened risk away, but it also takes away this opportunity for connection or for really a robust experience of being together.

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. And sometimes we assume outwardly, like I'm going to make an assumption about what your actions mean, but sometimes we also want our partner to assume what we mean without us taking the full risk to really lay it out there and tell them, so [00:20:00] we'll make hints about what our needs are.

Or we'll say to ourselves. Anybody who cares about another person will act in this way. 

And then there's a miss. Our partner didn't get it. They didn't act in the way that we wanted. And then the assumption is they don't care about us. I'm not important. They haven't prioritized me. 

And likely we're not sharing that hurt with them. And so there's no opportunity for correction. And when that pattern happens multiple times. It's building. It's not going away. 

And that hurt is building. 

Carly Claney: And it's reinforcing that pairing that if they don't read my mind, they don't care. Or on the flip side, if they cared, they would be able to know my needs, know what I want before I even say it. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. Our [00:21:00] media has done us a huge injustice by portraying couples in relationships that are working as being easy communicators, but that actually takes a ton of work.

Relationships are like campfires. If we're not constantly tending to them and working at them, they're going to start dying out and go to Ember and then go to Cole. 

Carly Claney: Huh. 

Rachel Orleck: And so it being easy just isn't a part of a real lifelong relationship. 

Carly Claney: I think that's confusing to know both because of the media influence and also I think of it this like a range of what does easy mean?

I think there could also maybe be this sense of why is it so hard? Does it have to be so hard? Is it ever seamless? Is it ever just two souls that just know each other without needing to communicate them? And again, I just think that's confusing for people to know inside of [00:22:00] themselves.

Rachel Orleck: Absolutely. While I'm a couples therapist, I don't believe that everybody. is meant for everybody. Like you can be in a relationship and it doesn't work and it's okay. My job isn't always to make sure two people stay together. It's sometimes to help them speak their truth and figure out that they're not really supposed to be Together. Or they're not willing to do what it takes to stay with the other person and that's okay.

You feel like you have to bend over backwards and break in order to meet the needs of another person, you can decide to do that, but you can also decide not to and that's okay. 

So there is this range of easier to harder and you have to decide as an individual and couple where you lie and if that's a comfortable enough place for you.

Even easy isn't seamless. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, and it sounds like it takes a lot of [00:23:00] consciousness for the individual to know what is worth it to me. Am I breaking by being in this connection or no, yeah, this is a hard that I, it makes sense to me. I'm willing to do it. It doesn't cost more than it gives. Which again, I think it takes a lot of insight for the individual to be reflective about the relationship.

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. When people come in for couples counseling in a relationship, that's really important to them often it does cost more than it gives at that moment in time. So it doesn't mean that it can't get to another place where you are receiving and giving more than it's costing.

But when you get into a place, because these patterns have been there for a long time it does cost more. Initially, and it does require prioritizing that relationship sometimes above almost all else. 

Carly Claney: I'm really glad you said that because I think that really probably is validating to a lot of people listening to this who are like [00:24:00] that's, that wasn't my experience.

It really is. When you get to that point, I think that it starts to threaten, is it even worth working on? Is it even, is there a path forward of connectedness? Or is it too far gone and we should just give up right now? 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, if everybody gave up when it got to that point of feeling like too hard then I wouldn't be a couples therapist anymore.

Carly Claney: Yeah, there wouldn't be a lot of relationships, I think, either. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, for sure. 

Carly Claney: So I took us away from it, but you were talking about assumptions. Assumptions being both something that is necessary to how we Are human and a way that we just survive in this world from an evolutionary perspective, as well as something that really begins to be harmful for a relationship when that's all it is, or if it stays in that assumption.

Rachel Orleck: And so that can be a place that really is harmful long term to the [00:25:00] relationship. So that's one pattern that I see that really harms relationships. Another one is blaming, so blaming would be categorized under kind of threat language. It feels like a dangerous place. It puts us in a position of having to defend ourselves or protect ourselves.

And Really what's happening underneath the blame is saying, I feel hurt. I feel disappointed. This didn't happen the way that I wanted it to. I didn't feel seen or important or loved. And all of those are very vulnerable and important communications to give. But often we say you did this, or this is happening because you didn't do X, Y, or Z.

And that distances people. 

Carly Claney: I can see it building from the assumptions, but it's really placing intention on your partner [00:26:00] You meant it this way you caused this feeling inside of me. You feel this certain way. It's really I keep doing this with my hand pushing it outwards I think because there's a sense of what you just said of pushing the person away 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, and it makes sense that we would want to do that.

We don't want anything to be our fault I am perfect. I do this correctly. And if it went wrong, it must not be me. I think there's also a protective part of that where we're a little nervous that if we did something wrong, then maybe our partner won't love us, accept us. And A grad school professor of mine said this thing in one of my classes that I use it to this day, but it's, would you rather be right or happy?

And sometimes you can't have it both ways. So something I often ask my clients is like, what feels so important about being right in this moment that you're [00:27:00] threatening the happiness? 

Carly Claney: Yeah and I see the connection being part of that happiness. If I'm able to be wrong and trust that they can still stay connected to me in that, that creates such more of that richness in relationship than the fragility that happens when I have to be right or else.

There's nothing on the other end. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, I think in Much in today's world, if we think of our employment situation and here in Seattle, we live in the land of tech and there is so much pressure to get it right and to fix things immediately. And the individual worker will get blamed for the whole system falling apart.

And so they will stay up to 3 a. m. working on a problem in order to get it right because their job is threatened. And that mentality, I [00:28:00] think gets taken home. And instead of saying I have no idea what's going on here. I'm sorry. I messed that up. I didn't say that the way I wanted to, or I'm really hurting here.

We had this disconnection, they start to say this is your fault, or if you hadn't done that. And we're pushing the person of most away from us when we do that. 

Carly Claney: That is very sad. 

Rachel Orleck: It is very sad. We love that person, we want them to be close, and often we're doing this angry gesture, the blaming, and we're watching them pull away and we don't know how to stop and pull them closer.

Carly Claney: I also think of How often this happens in the relationship that does mean the most to us that you can bring that blame or the assumptions maybe to going back to someone that you love [00:29:00] versus that boss at work. That there's not a lot of room for blaming in that same way. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, we, it's a really unfortunate thing that we tend to the worst with the people that mean the most to us.

And. I think there's a lot of different theories for why that happens. I don't know if I have a really good explanation. I think because we are able to be more vulnerable with that person than our boss at work, or we lose some of the boundariness that we have. And it can give way to some of this behavior, whereas we know that if we yell at our boss, or we blame our boss, there's a good likelihood that we'll be fired today, whereas our marriage will probably survive today.

Carly Claney: Yeah, the threat is different in that way. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. 

Carly Claney: All right. What's the third one, the third pattern? 

Rachel Orleck: So the third [00:30:00] one, actually we talked a little bit about it when we were doing the introduction to EFT and attachment styles, but it is this pursue withdraw. As we are engaging in our attachment styles to stay safe and try to maintain or reconnect with our partner, it's escalating.

So things don't just stay stagnant over time, they escalate and we could be talking about minutes, hours, days, weeks, or years that things are escalating. And so it's a pattern. Going back to blame, I never blame one partner or the other. There's two contributions to our relationship. And so it's very cyclical in that way.

Whether in an individual session, we're talking about 50 50 blame, 60 40 or 90 10, it doesn't matter. There's [00:31:00] responsibility of both parties in what's happening in their relationship as a whole and in the situation. 

So there's always opportunity for taking a step back and acknowledging your own part, acknowledging your partner's emotions, apologizing for how you contributed, but what tends to happen is more poking, more anger, more criticism.

And more pulling away, more getting quiet, sometimes exiting the room or the house for a little while. Also the withdrawing partner sometimes will, when backed into a corner, will explode with anger. And It can look like, oh they get angry with me, so I can't go to them. But really it's they're pulling away, yes. And you're pursuing and eventually they get angry as a way to push you away. 

Carly Claney: And I can even just hear [00:32:00] in that dynamic, how often it might feel like the person who was pursuing is I need to pursue to that level to get them to engage. I don't want them to explode on me, but finally I'm actually hearing something from my partner.

I feel some connection, even if it's not the connection that I actually want. 

Rachel Orleck: Yes, that's a really good point. Because we are programmed to have any reaction rather than no reaction. Again, going back to little kids, they'll pester their parents until their parent explodes, but they at least then know that they're not alone.

Any reaction is better than no reaction. And that ends up being what happens. They're pestering, they're pursuing their partner saying, I need to know that my feelings, what's going on actually matters to you, that you can have a sense of my pain. And sometimes I only know that you have a sense [00:33:00] of that when I see you in pain.

Carly Claney: That makes a lot of sense. It feels really hard to get out of then, but I can totally see how that just, that cycle happens again and again. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. And on the withdrawing side, you can't hug a cactus. So you're going to pull away and the cactus is coming at you and you're like, this isn't safe. I need to keep pulling further and further away.

While the cactus is saying, if you just hug me, I'd stop pushing you. So it is this huge pattern that is in some form the basis of almost everybody that I see. And so the big work is figuring out how to understand that and get out of that pattern. 

Carly Claney: And probably also pay attention to what are the factors that contribute to that.

I'm thinking of the person withdrawing. Maybe there's some cultural factors. You mentioned that earlier of in my family [00:34:00] culture or other kinds of culture, it is at a different pace. I'm used to slowness and conversation. Maybe there's a language barrier between the two partners so there's a literal translation that's happening that takes up some space. And thinking of people who are neurodivergent and maybe get overstimulated. And so there's just so many factors that might also be contributing to the attachment. And I think that in the relationship, there has to be room to negotiating how to be aware of each partner's needs and difficulties so that there's room to be together. 

Rachel Orleck: Not to mention past trauma.

Carly Claney: Yeah. 

Rachel Orleck: So you brought it up earlier where somebody who has trauma bounces back and forth between the two attachment styles and. There's that chaotic component that can be there and understanding the confusion on the other side where they're like, my partner was just coming towards [00:35:00] me and now they're pulling away and I don't really understand what's going on.

So being aware of that and being compassionate. And I think we'll end up talking a little bit more about that in the good parts of the cycle, but 

Carly Claney: yeah, 

Rachel Orleck: There is this need to really understand what might be happening for the other person and developing a sense of compassion and empathy for that.

Carly Claney: Let's move there. I'd love to hear now the positive patterns, the ones that are going to help clients or couples to connect. 

Rachel Orleck: Sure. So the first one that I want to talk about is gentleness. So a lot of the patterns that we talked about in the first half that weren't as helpful , they're a little bit harsher.

And we, I think in the psychology world, we use the term harsh start a lot when it comes to relationships, which basically has to do with tone or [00:36:00] what we say, and it just comes across as much more pointed, but when we are gentle, it doesn't mean what we say won't end up hurting our partner's feelings.

Sometimes that's actually a necessary part of the process, but we can think about how we're going to say it. So I can be angry, but I don't have to act angry. 

And that makes it more gentle to share, I'm really angry when this happens, as opposed to getting loud or having a sharp tone or even body language that might appear to be a little bit more aggressive, which automatically makes the other partners take a step back.



Rachel Orleck: When we think about gentleness, it's our tone. It is how we say things. It's maybe even providing reassurance that we care about that person we're talking to. [00:37:00] Providing Gentleness and reassurance helps the partner stay close and stay open so that we can have a better conversation.

Remembering that often what we're trying to do is give feedback in the relationship versus criticism. And feedback is the person saying, I'm unhappy with Something that just happened and I care about this relationship enough to try to make it different. So I'm sharing this with you. I want it to be better for both of us.

Often that's heard as criticism. And we're working on how do you relay that in a way that's gentle, but also receive it from a place of gentleness. 

Carly Claney: Yes. Yes. And I like , the way you're talking about it, because it still sounds very direct. I think, Initially, when I think of gentleness, I can see this very meek presentation that's maybe using these [00:38:00] words of iffy and just beating around the bush a little bit, not being direct, maybe being even passive aggressive and fear that what they have to say is going to hurt.

It's going to sting. It's going to be received in a painful way. And so instead of being gentle yet clear, there's a gentle, that's Weird and mushy and not actually helpful. 

Rachel Orleck: And then see previous conversation about assumption. 

Carly Claney: Yes. Yeah. They're so connected. 

Rachel Orleck: So really keeping that gentleness in mind, how I convey it, how I receive it.

Feedback is really important. And because we can be not gentle in the way we receive information as well. So that is a very big component that tells. the other person, it is safe here. It is safe for us to have this conversation. We can be secure. 

Carly Claney: We can tolerate this [00:39:00] disruption. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. We may feel disconnected right now, but we are both working on coming back together and reconnecting.

Carly Claney: And it sounds like with that, too, there's an intention to not add harm. It might feel uncomfortable, but like you're saying, we're doing this because we care about each other, care about the relationship. We're not actively creating more injuries with that perspective of gentleness. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly.

I'll just reiterate, sometimes we have to hurt our partner's feelings. It's not selfish. It's not mean. It's not cruel. There are things that are going to come up that are just going to hurt because they care about us. It's hard to hear that we had a negative impact on our partner. It's supposed to hurt when we hear that.

If it didn't, what would that say about the relationship? 

Carly Claney: Yeah, definitely. So what's number two? 

Rachel Orleck: So number two is vulnerability, [00:40:00] which is. really related to gentleness, but it has to do with how much of yourself you share with your partner. So vulnerability and intimacy are two sides of the same coin. We can't be intimate And I'm not just talking about physical intimacy, but emotionally intimate.

We can't have that with our partner without vulnerability. Vulnerability by definition is uncomfortable and risky. And when we are vulnerable, we are most at risk of getting hurt.

So we can only have that with our partner to some degree, we're not that way with our boss. We're not that way with our casual friend, maybe to some degree with our best friend, but there's a special relationship that we have with our partner and opening up in a very [00:41:00] vulnerable way inherently comes with some risk, but that's where we're able to share our hurts, our fears, our needs and our wants and feel like they're respected, honored, important. My one caveat is just because we're expressing a need or a want, it doesn't mean that we're always going to get it or always going to get it in that moment. 

And there can be a fear to that hey, I'm being vulnerable. I'm sharing with you what I need. And you're saying no, when I'm being vulnerable, aren't you supposed to say yes?

Carly Claney: Yeah. 

Rachel Orleck: And unfortunately not, because the other person is their own human and has their own needs and wants and reserves and capacities at any given time. 

But we want to honor the fact that person was being very vulnerable with us. Being able to share like, this is really important. I really appreciate you opening up, [00:42:00] creates that safe place for them to be vulnerable again.

Another way that we are vulnerable is by sharing about us. So this kind of harkens back a little bit to the blame, but we're not saying you did this we're saying, I feel hurt or sad when this happens, because what I'm telling myself about it is, and that's our filter, our programming, because what I'm telling myself about it isn't necessarily what you're telling yourself about it.

And I can acknowledge my ownership of my own perceptions. 

Carly Claney: My iceberg bottom is going to be different than your iceberg bottom, and yet what it seems like in this act of being vulnerable, you're giving a view of that iceberg bottom. You're trying to bring that to your partner and communicate, yeah, what's happening on that really deep deep level.

Rachel Orleck: Exactly and when we [00:43:00] do that, when we own things, when we acknowledge our partner and their emotions, what we're saying is, it is safe for you to come here to me and take off your armor, break down your walls, open a door or a window. It's okay to come to me. I'm not going to intentionally hurt you when you do that.

And that is security. When we are in the anxious or avoidant place, It isn't safe to do that. 

We are going to get hurt, but we're creating safety through security. 

Carly Claney: I'm thinking of what you said about it's different than when we share in other relationships. Again, maybe at work or with certain friends. Can you speak to what makes it different?

What brings it more into that intimacy than how you just be sharing about yourself and your feelings and your wants and needs?

Rachel Orleck: Yes, it's a little bit of a difficult concept [00:44:00] because it really is how we build. In a attached way. So the level to which we can go deeply with somebody has to do with the kind of relationship we want from them and the kind of commitment we have with them. So boss at work, probably relatively superficial in all ways. So you're not going to go to your boss and really open up and share all these deep parts of you.

There's a piece of that that's probably not appropriate, but also. It's not a place where you feel completely secure. 

Carly Claney: The structure of the relationship is expecting something different. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. With a best friend, you might be able to get to that depth, but generally a friendship is just on a different level than an intimate partnership.

It's somebody [00:45:00] that you can go to, but we don't experience disconnection in those relationships in quite the same way. And I'm not sure if I have the words to exactly describe why that is. But, We generally rarely break up with our friends, whereas we go through multiple romantic relationships in our lifetime most of the time.

Carly Claney: Yeah. I'm thinking of what you said with commitment. There's something about how much you're placing on the relationship and what you're expecting and what you're, in some ways, needing that relationship to be your partner in life and do life together in that same way. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah, I think actually that's a really good way.

That's a good word to use is commitment. So with your best friend, you are highly committed to them in a certain way. 

But with your romantic partner, you're also getting into the vulnerability of [00:46:00] physical intimacy. Being naked and touching in that way is extremely vulnerable. Potentially raising kids if that's part of the plan is very vulnerable.

You're going to be seeing each other and like the worst light at different points when you live together every day and you wake up and you smell each other's morning breath, and hair in all different weird ways, and you see them at their worst, as well as at their best. You need to know that somebody will survive with you through that.

And that's where the security, I think, and the commitment comes from. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, I'm thinking of the very standard marriage vows in sickness and in health and those kinds of things that really bring at both parts. Anything else about vulnerability that you want to speak to? 

Rachel Orleck: No, I think that is a really good kind of high level summary of vulnerability. That we're just looking to create [00:47:00] a safe place and we do that by showing our vulnerability. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, I think that's actually a really good point too.

It starts with you. It starts with you bringing that to your partner. You can't expect someone to do that if you're not willing to also risk all that vulnerability. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. And so then the third one is mindfulness. Quick definition of what mindfulness is for anybody who isn't sure, is it's the process of being aware in the present moment without judgment.

Carly Claney: That's hard. 

Rachel Orleck: It's so hard. But with mindfulness, we allow space. For us to have our emotions and be aware of them as well as for our partner to have their emotions and to be aware of them. We're able to hold those two things and sometimes when we aren't mindful or we haven't slowed it down, we don't feel like we have the capacity for somebody else. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. For [00:48:00] both of us. 

Rachel Orleck: But humans are incredible beings and we have so much capacity, but it's like weightlifting. We have to train it in. 

We don't go to the gym today and walk out in our Arnold.

It takes a lot of time to get there. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. 

Rachel Orleck: And so today we might be lifting two pound weights and a month from now it's 10 pound weights and it takes some time. But we do have the capacity to slow things down and notice I am feeling triggered right now. I'm feeling hurt. I feel angry or scared and to also hear and take in and have compassion that our partner may be feeling some of those things as well and that we care about them enough.

To hear them out, to show them that we care about that. And hopefully, both partners are doing those things at the same time. 

Carly Claney: I love the way you [00:49:00] describe that because it reminds me of this desire for mind reading and how there's a similarity about this of holding the partner in mind or thinking of them, but it seems like instead of assuming, that it's more that creating space. The openness, curiosity and room for both people to have personhood and feelings and experiences.

Rachel Orleck: just to connect it to vulnerability a little bit. When we are able to do that, we can be more vulnerable because it's saying to our partner, I can hold you in your messiness and I'm not going anywhere. When we shut them down, when we dismiss them, that's a signal of not being safe. When we have enough awareness inside ourself to hold both parts, then we're telling our partner, you can be safe with me. Which means they can share their hurts and needs and wants and [00:50:00] all of that stuff with you, but they can also come to you with love and closeness and intimacy, and it's reciprocated. So when I'm hurt and I feel messy, I know you'll be there for me too.

Carly Claney: And with the separateness there too, it also seems like you might be more open to hearing that from your partner, receiving it, knowing that there's not this immediate demand on, I have to meet every need right now. I have to agree with you. I have to follow you in this train that you're going on.

It seems like there's this openness of you. You are allowed to hold onto yourself while creating room for your partner. 

Rachel Orleck: Exactly. I love what you just said. We don't have to agree. Agreement is not the same thing as acknowledging or validating. It's very separate. Saying, your need, your hurt, it makes sense, I understand it.

[00:51:00] It's not the same thing as, I agree that I did this bad thing in the way that you saw it. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, that takes a lot of that mindfulness to be able to hold both parts. 

Rachel Orleck: Yes. And a lot of that I think is also having the mindfulness to remember your partner's attachment style. What was their programming that may have led them to feeling more anxious about what you're saying right now, or has led them to closing up a little bit when they hear that?

Remembering Oh, this is a place of trauma with my partner. I'm touching on this sensitive spot. It's almost like a bruise that doesn't go away. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. 

Rachel Orleck: And it might be unavoidable to touch it, but I need to be sensitive that when I touch it, I'm gentle, that I am vulnerable. I'm creating this safe space and I'm remembering that's there so that when they [00:52:00] react like anybody will, when you touch a bruise, that I'm not shutting them down. I'm not running away that I'm right there with them, even though I might also be getting triggered or activated. 

Carly Claney: It's so human. I think there's a part of me as I listened to this, that understands the desire to not do any of this. Cause it's so hard and it requires messiness and it requires being hurt.

And I think it's so easy to just assume I just shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to feel pain in this world or in my relationships. But I think, again, there's such beauty of knowing, I love what you said that humans are incredible. We can tolerate a lot, we can learn, we can grow so much.

And there's such beauty in being able to navigate this and expand ourselves, rather than want a relationship to get smaller or our life to get more constrained.

Rachel Orleck: It's really an incredible phenomenon, these relationships, because they're so scary. As a [00:53:00] type a perfectionist myself, I get into the cycle where I'm like, I can't screw up. I can't mess it up. I have to do this perfectly. Oh my God. This is my training for over a decade. Why did I just mess that up? And we forget that we're human. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. It's just amazing that we're able to do it all. 

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. So those are my kind of three patterns on either side. The things that hurt our relationship that we should keep in mind of places that we don't want to go and then things that will really help create a close and connected relationship.

Carly Claney: Thank you so much. I think that these patterns, while it's not this script or formula that people can follow explicitly and just know everything's going to be great now. It really does seem like it's the path forward to Being able to change your attachment style, being able to grow and have healthy connection move more towards connection with a partner, and [00:54:00] prioritize the relationship, just really be able to keep it in mind as something that you want to be in and grow and have it be satisfying to you.

Rachel Orleck: And we make mistakes. So even as we're working to change our attachment style with this individual, It doesn't mean that all our programming goes away, so we will make mistakes when we are stressed or triggered enough. 

Carly Claney: Yeah, that's an important thing to stay empathetic to and reflective on. 

Rachel Orleck: I think so.

Carly Claney: If anyone's listening and wants to continue this, either with their partner or if maybe they're single and they just want to be able to grow and learn about themselves, about their attachment styles, what are some things that they can think of to pursue? I'm thinking if there's specific books, specific keywords to Google, anything come to mind?

Rachel Orleck: Sure. There are three books or workbooks that I recommend to most of my clients when they ask. So Sue Johnson, who is the founder of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy [00:55:00] has written two books for kind of the client population. One is called hold me tight and the other is called love sense, S. E. N. S. E. love sense. And those are really good. Love sense is more about attachment and that programming, but it's written in a really digestible way. Hold me tight talks about the patterns in relationships and different struggles that people have. So that's a really good overview and can augment the couples counseling.

Both are also available on Audible if you're more of an audiobook person. And then the last one is a workbook that can guide some couples through certain conversations. And again I recommend. It a lot to couples who want to have a little bit more structure during the week as we're [00:56:00] developing these experiential skills.

So the workbook is called an emotion.

The workbook is called an emotionally focused workbook for couples by Veronica Kalos, Lily and Jennifer Fitzgerald. 

Carly Claney: Great. 

Rachel Orleck: They're trainers in EFT and it's just been a really helpful workbook for a lot of the clients that I've been working with. Again, to keep them thinking about these concepts and during the week.

Carly Claney: I like the way you're framing that because I think there's a reality here that we can all learn on our own and read these books or workbooks and talk to our partners about them. But it seems like it's very common for people to seek a couples therapist, to have that third party in the room where you're able to have the containment to have support around this And that's just a really natural in some ways first step if anyone's really at this point where they're uncertain about what's happening in their [00:57:00] relationship 

Rachel Orleck: The books and workbook, if you just need a small adjustment, they may be sufficient on their own to give you enough understanding and awareness of what's going on so that you can make those adjustments.

But I don't generally recommend them to be used without the additional support of a couples counselor, because, everybody is unique in their own way and having more depth than you can go through in a book or a workbook can be really helpful. 

Carly Claney: If anyone's listening and curious about working with you, I'll share the details of contact information and again, those books too, in the show notes, but any way of working with you directly?

Rachel Orleck: Yeah. They can go to my website, which I guess will be in the show notes. And on there, you can read all about me, and there is a place to schedule a consultation call with me, [00:58:00] and I will then have a conversation with you, and if it feels like we're a good fit, then we can start working together.

Carly Claney: Wonderful. And those would be Washington state couples or individuals? 

Rachel Orleck: Yes, Washington state couples. I am working towards PSYPACT, so that will grant me telehealth access to other states. I'm not there yet, but if anybody is listening to this, maybe six months down the road, that might be possible.

Carly Claney: Perfect. Great. Thank you so much. It was so great to learn about these things with you, Rachel. And I just feel hope thinking about these things and knowing that there's ways we can be connected in our relationships. 

Rachel Orleck: Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a big and important part of my life.

I love sharing it with other people. 

Carly Claney: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Relational Psych is a mental health group practice providing depth oriented psychotherapy and psychological testing in person in Seattle and online in Washington State. If you're interested in mental health care for yourself or a family member, please reach out. Our website is relationalpsych.group.