Religious Trauma and the Highly Sensitive Person

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My guest today, Stephanie Gardner Wright can be found on her website and also on Instagram @StephanieGardnerWright

*Disclaimer* The information in this podcast episode is for educational purposes only and is not clinical mental health advice. If you are in crisis and in need of immediate support you can connect with someone here. 

Transcript

Natalie: 0:01

This is Natalie Kember with freedom from spiritual abuse, the podcast. And I'm so glad you're here.

0:07

Today. I am so excited to introduce to my friend and colleague Stephanie gardener. Right. Stephanie is in private practice here in Michigan and specializes in working with those who are highly sensitive. She has a master's degree in social work from Michigan state university and has worked in the clinical social work field for over a decade. She is passionate about working with adults who feel overwhelmed by their emotions and life stressors. Today, Stephanie and I are going to talk about the intersection between religious trauma in the highly sensitive person's experience. So let's get to it.

Natalie: 0:42

I'm so glad we got together to have this conversation today. So let's just. Let's just give a little quick background about what we're like, orient ourselves for the people listening. Mm-hmm. So what is a highly sensitive person? And then I'll jump in and talk about like what is spiritual abuse and religious trauma, so we have a little bit of a foundation

Stephanie: 0:59

to jump from. Perfect. Yeah. So when we're talking about highly sensitive people, what we're really talking about is people that are more affected. By their environments, and they're more responsive to their environment. So there's a continuum of sensitivity. Every single person on Earth is on it, but there are ends of that. So there's low sensitivity, there's more of a medium sensitivity, and then there's folks that are highly sensitive. So where you are, Really aware of what's going on around you. Um, if you're, you know, in a restaurant for instance, you're gonna be very aware of everything that's happening around you, as well as what's happening within your own body and the social things that are happening if you're in a conversation with someone too. So you're going to be much more aware of all of those little nuances and details. Your average person with, with lower sensitivity would have and highly sensitive people are actually about 30% of the population. That's

Natalie: 1:53

pretty fascinating to think. It's so many, so many people out there. Mm-hmm. Is this kind of like a newer discovered thing? Like That's, that's

Stephanie: 2:01

a good question. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the term highly sensitive person has been around since the nineties, but really the, the research or the thoughts about temperamental sensitivity are, are going back more than a hundred years. So there's just been different terms from it. There's different theories about it. Most people have. About Elaine Aaron, if they've heard of highly sensitive people, which is really the term that she coined. But there's a lot of research in the last 40 years too that's ongoing. So it's, it's pretty cool to see how the research is unfolding.

Natalie: 2:30

Right. So in a way, it's kinda interesting because the field that I work in a little bit more with religious trauma and spiritual abuse is very new and emerging. Mm-hmm. the HSP world is not quite as new in a sense, but, But still, and when we're talking about like the history of psychology, these are pretty new emerging things, which is kind of exciting.

Stephanie: 2:47

To be, it is to be on the cutting edge of these things and be really seeing, seeing what happens as the research is, is changing and taking shape, which you're really seeing too in your, in ordering of

Natalie: 2:58

expertise. Yeah. Lots of people going to get their doctorates and, and starting to declare, you know, this is what I'm studying and so it's pretty cool. Pretty cool to see. So I'll talk just a quick, like brief, you know, overview of what is, what is spiritual abuse and religious trauma. Now there's two different terms for a reason. So spiritual abuse is, is something that can take place in a very wide range of context, which I think is really important to say up front. Um, a lot of times we talk about this within a church setting, um, which is where in a sense people might think it's more common. We don't have statistics to back that. But it seems to be more of what we, what we tend to think of, but it can also take place within a family system. Um, just a, an interpersonal relationship. We see it with domestic violence sometimes. Um, it can, it can take place within a workplace, a school, um, these multi-level marketing or, um, those type of organizations. Um, and we're also talking about cults. Like it can happen in all sorts of settings. Um, it can happen in a new age. It can happen. I've heard of it in yoga studios, like this is not just within a church context. So I think that's important to know. Mm-hmm. But the reality of what it, what it basically is, is using. Like a spiritual concept, a higher power, and manipulating it in a way that is used to control somebody, control their actions, their thoughts, their behaviors. Um, and that can take place in lots of different ways, manifesting, depending differently on what situation we're talking about. But it's just this concept of where we're using us. Spiritual concept or a God or whatever, and manipulating it in a way to control you or keep you contained in some sense. Mm-hmm. Um, now religious trauma is to, obviously the word religion's in there, so we're talking more about within, um, within a, a church community or this can also happen within like, uh, family context or domestic violence type situations. But that's when we're talking about spiritual abuse can play a role, but trauma is the response that one person's body or system is having to a specific experience. So two people could endure spiritual abuse and one could come out with trauma responses and one might not. It doesn't mean the abuse didn't happen to the other person, it just means the, the one person's body, brain interpret it differently as a different kind of level of threat in a sense, and is now responding to it in maybe a hyperactive way. Mm-hmm. So, um, I think it's important to note that two people can endure the same thing and respond differently cuz the word trauma is just thrown around a whole lot these days. And the trauma is not actually the event, it's the response that we

Stephanie: 5:38

develop. Such an important point because on the one hand it's, it's great that folks are talking more about trauma and they're hearing more about it, and we have a greater awareness and we really need to define these terms and what it looks like clinically so that we're all on the same page and we're talking about the same thing because absolutely. Trauma is the response and I was. Thinking as you were sharing, you know, how, how important this is for more sensitive folks to know. Yeah, because highly sensitive people, when they're in adverse situations, they are more often deeply affected by it than people with less sensitivity. You know? Now this doesn't mean that they're, you know, doomed to have a trauma response, but it does mean that there is a greater risk for that. Yeah. So it's, it's important to know when you are in a situation of spiritual abuse or experiencing religious trauma would be my. Yeah.

Natalie: 6:27

Yeah, for sure. So it might be helpful too to touch a little bit on how it, how it can present and maybe some red flags, just because I'm talking about this in such vague terms, because it can be so different in different contexts. But, but let me just give some examples and I'll just use some. Maybe church or family examples, cuz those might be a little bit easier for people to like mm-hmm. under relate to or maybe a little bit more common. Um, so for example, a lot of what we hear with people who endure spiritual abuse is things like scripture. So in a Christian context, we're talking about like the Bible, like Bible verses being used or twisted in a way. To control somebody's behavior, maybe their appearance. Um, we hear that a lot with the way women versus men can dress. Um, maybe what your hair can look like or can't look like. Um, where you can go and who you can associate with. Um, so a lot of times this comes, you're probably picking up on this with a lot of shame. Um, shame can be a big tool with, with spiritual abuse as a way to control people. Um, a lot of shaming tones, condescending. Things used around scripture especially, um, even threats of losing your connection with God, losing your connection with your community if you don't comply with certain standards or just believe things the way that they think you should believe things. So, so that's a lot of kind of what I'm talking about when I talk about spiritual abuse. And I think, like I said, it's important to know this. This happens a lot with other forms of abuse side by side. Mm. So like with domestic violence, we hear of people who maybe were in a very conservative kind of circle and their spouse used scripture to control that they couldn't have a job and they had to stay home and raise children, and that you, you therefore don't have access to finances. If your husband is also abusive, it's gonna be even more difficult to get out because I feel like God doesn't want me to go have a job that's like a sinful thing as a woman. So, now I feel completely beholden to this man's will. And so we can see how that's intertwined with things like domestic violence and it, it becomes really insidious and complicated

Stephanie: 8:35

real quick. Right, Absolutely. Yeah, because it sounds like what we're talking about too, especially with this more a spiritual layer or like you said, you know, different types of trauma or abuse can, can coincide and, and almost layer on top of each other. And part of this. Is dulling of your own sense of intuition or what's right for you. So being told by whoever is attempting to control you, for instance, that you know no, you know, your perception of this is incorrect. You have to listen to me on how this is, you know, this is what, for instance, your example. You know, this is what God is sharing. This is what this holy scripture is, is saying. So your perception of the situation is therefore incorrect and which is such a struggle already for many highly sensitive people. Yeah. With culture and family messages, even if it's perfectly benign, there are often a lot of messages that are even, um, nonverbal about sensitivity and, you know, no, you know, you're, you're overreacting or you're being too sensitive. That's, Are you sure that's what's happened? You know, I didn't notice that. And because people are perceiving things at a deeper level, so we often already have this. Of self doubt about perceptions of the world. So this would really just amp that up even more, is what I'm hearing.

Natalie: 9:52

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's, it's kinda like this weird, subtle gaslighting, right? Mm-hmm. you can't trust your gut or your experience, and let me tell you what actually happened. Mm-hmm. and we, we see that a lot with spiritual abuse and religious trauma. Like these people or these leaders are speaking as if they're God and so, if they lay that as a Trump card, who can argue with that? Because if I believe in God and I believe God is powerful, I have this kind of reverence of that. So when you say, you know definitively, this is what God means by X, Y, and Z, I'm now backed into a corner and I can no longer trust myself.

Stephanie: 10:29

Yeah. Absolutely. And that's such a powerful cocktail and, and such, such a powerful one that's difficult to get out of, you know, to, to find your way back, especially if it's been maybe a majority of your life and you've never really known anything different to find your way back to what does. What feels true for me, You know, what even are these physical sensations that I'm experiencing and, and can I be aware of those and feel like those are okay to have, you know, as a sign of some of those red flags that you were sharing. Uh, we were talking too before we pressed record today, we were talking about how this can be so damaging for more sensitive people in terms of their psyche and their spiritual connection and, and even how some of, some of this. Subtle gas lighting, as you were saying, can, can really make people feel like their connection to to God or the Divine Source. However, however they're conceptualizing that, how it can really damage that spiritual side of them because what we know about highly sensitive people is. That they are often very connected to spirituality in whatever way that shows up for them. So there's this sense of wonder typically about being in nature, this very deep awareness of connection to the divine or or to all living things. And so, This could really get in the way of that, as is what we were chatting a little bit about. Yeah. So that was, um, you know, just really, really impactful.

Natalie: 11:56

Um, yeah, it, it's, it's like it can stunt your growth in that sense. Mm-hmm. right? So if I'm trying to contain you into this box of what I think you have to be or how you have to act or. or even what questions you're allowed to ask, like think about how much that would affect somebody who's highly sensitive, who's generally a deep thinker, a critical thinker, a wonderer, and an explorer in that sense. Mm-hmm. so, So just this part of you, which I think is an awesome part of being highly sensitive. Exactly. Who's now being stunted or cut off or contained mm-hmm. and how that can impact just even your sense of self. is so, um, is so sad to me. And, and you know, my practice is surrounded by, I do a lot of work with people coming out of even cult-like environments or, or just have religious trauma. And not everybody I work with is a highly sensitive person. Mm-hmm. but. I would have to say everybody I've ever worked with has struggled with a sense of self coming out of these types of situations. Mm-hmm. because it's so disorienting about being forced into this box and being told you can't trust yourself. You can't trust your emotions. Um, and, and that's also a very common thing with spiritual abuse. And when we're talking about maybe in the Christian circles of just, you have, you can't, you can't trust your emotion because your emotion is going to lead you astray. And so you have to, you have to shove your emotion to the side and not listen to it or honor it. Mm-hmm. So when we try and reintegrate that in the healing process, it can be a very difficult, scary thing. Mm-hmm. So I, I just wonder too, like as a highly sensitive person who's so in tune to like the world around them, other people and cues and even just their own emotional experience, like, can you talk a little bit about that? Like their own connection to their emotional experience? Yeah,

Stephanie: 13:44

absolutely. So there's several. Threads of this. I wanna talk to you about what you'd said about, you know, being, being really shoved into this box. But this is something I see to start with your original question. This is something I see too a lot in, in my practice where, you know, often highly sensitive folks, whether they identify that way or we're maybe discovering that a little later. Where they're coming in and they're, they're really up in their heads. They're not able to drop down into their bodies. And, and this can be part of the experience for highly sensitive folks without trauma anyway, you know, we tend to live more in the future and in the past than less sensitive people because we're, we're deeply intuiting and we're deeply thinking about everything, and, and that can often lead to anxiety. So that's a typical part of being highly sensitive, is maybe being more open in your head. And having difficulty connecting to your body. But where the subtlety and the difference for me is with an experience of trauma with that is when it feels unsafe like you were sharing. You know, it feels very difficult and unsafe to be able to notice your bodily sensations or begin to trust that they are true and accurate. So when that's feeling threatening for folks or when it's feeling, um, like there is. Either maybe a panic attack or a sense of flooding or a sense of shutting down when they begin to tap into their emotions. That for me is a sign that we are really proceeding delicately at that point, working with a lot of trauma in the, in the body that doesn't feel safe, um, to be felt. And, and speaking of that gas lighting, there is often that sense of, can I trust my emotions? Can I even believe the information that my body or my emotions are giving? So back to what you were saying about being shoved in a box. I thought that was such a good point because, um, what we see with the research with a lot of highly sensitive folks is, so there's this, um, common personality inventory, it's called the Big Five. People know that it's the big five. It's like, um, you know, some of them are extroversion, neuroticism, which just. Basically means anxiety and some other things. And openness to experience are, are a few of those. So highly sensitive folks typically are more neurotic, so that greater anxiety and they also score higher than most people on openness to experience. So that means you're more creative, you are more open to, um, Other perspectives, you're more open-minded in general. So when you have a sensitive person in a spiritual community who is naturally more open to other perspectives, they're more open-minded naturally, but you're being told, no, this is the limited box that we have to operate in. We can't, um, believe those other things or your experience is not accurate that can be incredibly damaging.

Natalie: 16:28

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just like so invalidating of just who you are at the core, right? Yes. If that's, if that's something that you hold close as like a value of you mm-hmm. um, and how quickly that can start to crumble your sense of self and autonomy. Yes. Um, it's just that damage runs deep, right? It does. Yeah. And I think too, like. I've done this work long enough to know I've worked with people who, who've been in those realms for short periods of time and left mm-hmm. and I've worked with people who are raised in abusive, spiritually abusive environment and have religious trauma that was there from, from childhood. Mm-hmm. And so when I think of a highly sensitive person being raised in an environment like that, they, it's, it's like starting at ground zero with who am I?. When they finally leave, which is so hard to do, which we can talk about, you know, shortly. But once they finally get out, it's like way, like you kind of are floating in an abyss. It's how it feels as far as like, wait, who am I? What grounds me? What contains me out here? Um, cuz everything just would feel so, um, so disorienting because those formal developmental phases were kind of skipped because they weren't an. Right. So, so I mean, I, I've worked with people where it's like, let's get back to like, what do you like for a movie? Mm-hmm. that sounds silly as an adult having that conversation. But those are things kids talk about and they never got to do that perhaps. So let's go do that. Let's go see what, what you like in the makeup section. Maybe makeup was a forbidden thing, so, so it can just be like this process of really discovering who am I? Am I, because that was maybe not an option for some people.

Stephanie: 18:10

And I love that too, because then what we're doing is, is we're feeding to heal those developmental stages, you know, where we may have gotten stuck at those developmental stages and, and we're making it a little playful with those examples, you know, of this doesn't all have to be so serious and intense all the time because healing can be, and that's part of it. Okay? But to also bring in these maybe younger or more disassociated parts of us. Really don't know. You know, what, what kind of movies do I even like, Well, let's, let's find out. Let's just experiment and no answer is wrong or Right. You get to make this decision for yourself and have autonomy.

Natalie: 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk too about the process of leaving a spiritually abusive environment and how that might like affect a highly sensitive person. Mm-hmm. I mean, we know. We know from people's stories, and we don't know this from research and statistics yet, but we do know from people's stories and, and I speak with other therapists who do this work all the time. This is such a common theme and, and in a sense, I feel like the best thing we can mirror it to is leaving a domestic violence relationship. Okay. If you don't leave once and not go back. In a sense, with domestic violence, we know it takes six, seven times for, for a woman to, I'm saying woman, but it can be a man too. Mm-hmm. to leave that relationship and not go back. So you might not actually leave the spiritually abusive environment multiple times, but I can think of it as attempting to start to leave. And then you recoil back in. Mm-hmm. so, The reality of leaving an environment like that can be so traumatizing in and of itself. There can be a trauma around leaving because you know that you're potentially cutting off a lot of support for yourself. Um, you could be losing a community of people that you've been a part of, you could be losing or starting to question even just. The concept of your faith, which can be its own disorientation and, and its own kind of trauma. Mm-hmm. So how, how do you think, like of a, of a highly sensitive person in that sort of quandary of like, my gut is still screaming at some level, things are wrong. But people are telling me they're fine, but I really wanna leave. And so what does that kind of tug of war maybe look like for a highly sensitive person?

Stephanie: 20:16

Absolutely. Starting at a physical level that often looks like GI tract issues, it often looks like maybe even you have a stomach ulcer in some situations. Again, this is different for everyone, but you're often going to have some really. Body based physical anxiety where there are not always, but there's, there's a likelihood that you're noticing some, um, some kind of, you know, intestinal stuff. Because we're, what we're doing is we're holding all these emotions in, they're not safe to feel typically, so they're, they're not going anywhere and they have to be released in some way. So we're turning it inward instead of being able to express them naturally. And, and healthfully. Um, another thing that we would see with highly sensitive people when they're starting to contemplate leaving an abusive situation, you know, whether that's spiritual or otherwise, is because highly sensitive folks are so good, uh, sometimes to a fault, you know, could be argued. But they're so good at being able to project what could happen. So being able to see, okay, you know, I can see in front of me these different paths and if I pick door A, then I can see the logical projection of what will happen there and the pro progression of that. And if I pick these other paths, then I can see clearly what would happen there. And, and this is a great strength to be able to project forward. Okay, this, this is the likelihood of how things will go, and it can also have that other side of, we can become very overwhelmed or even overstimulated and get stopped in our tracks before we even get started. So really this sense of being stuck and not being able to move because you're so overwhelmed by either the sense of choice or by the possibilities that you can see could happen if you were to start to take action. If that makes.

Natalie: 21:59

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, and I think too, just that that looming threat of losing community and connection mm-hmm. and, and some people it also feels like losing their connection with like the higher power. Exactly. Or if, if we're talking about some other sort of, Spiritual realm of like maybe a level of healing they found as far as like a self-help group went and then it got toxic. And so now I'm questioning, was any of this healing? Mm-hmm. help real, mm-hmm. Um, and so you're facing these kind of really big, looming questions that come with. With also the threat of losing community.

Stephanie: 22:34

Right? Absolutely. Can you speak a little to how, and I know every situation is different, but just how typical that is for people, either from the research or anecdotally what you've seen in your work. You know, how how much is this sense of losing community typically a part of leaving a spiritually abusive situation?

Natalie: 22:53

Yeah. I, I have to say that I think almost everybody I've ever worked with has lost some social connection or grounding. Um, I, again, we don't really have statistics on that sort of thing. Sure. But anecdotally, and, and just from people I've talked to who've done this work as well in different parts of the country and world, all say, that is a very, very common theme of even. Even the perceived threat of losing the community is, is a big part of it. Mm-hmm. But most people, even if it wasn't truly a cult that we're talking about, but we're talking about just an environment where there's a, like high control and, and a lot of spiritual abuse happening, they tend to just kind of drop you when you leave. Cause there's a lot of like you're in or you're out kind of mentality and. And some of that us versus them stuff. Mm-hmm. which, which I, I think there's a spectrum when we slide into like a cult or not, but, but a lot of that is prevalent with spiritual abuse as at its core, because that's part of the control. So a lot of times people feel like if you leave, we don't trust you the same way either. So, So a lot of people have endured losing social connections, strained family relationships if family's half in, half out, those sort of things. Um, or you know, even having been cut off from a person who was like a mentor to you. Mm-hmm. sometimes within in churches, there's like a mentor that takes you under their wing and then when you leave, that connection is now lost because we only do that for people in our church. Right? And so now you're outside the door not in it. And so we're just gonna have a distance from you. And with some people it's not as intense, but it's more of like a, we'll say hi to you in a casual sense, but we're still not connected socially the way we were

Stephanie: 24:39

before. There's not that closeness or intimacy.

Natalie: 24:42

Yeah, that's kind of just dissolved in a weird way. Okay, so, So I think there's a lot of an anticipatory grief that happens. Yeah, when I'm thinking of leaving, because it's like, Oh, I can see this is gonna fall apart and I don't wanna lose this person, but I'm at a point where it's a crossroad and if I stay here, this is like, this is kind of soul crushing. Right. So I know I've gotta get out, but I'm seeing the grief that's ahead. Mm-hmm. and that, that's really scary.

Stephanie: 25:11

absolutely. And, and I wonder too, you know, what are your thoughts of this, of how, how people might experience this? I mean, you, you said there's such a typical cutting off at some level, you know, maybe it's more extreme in other situations than, you know, certain, but where there's this removal of the social connect. how are people internalizing this, if at all, when, when you're working with them? Is there a sense of, of guilt? You mentioned that shame, how, how are people understanding this? Is, is it seen as their fault or are they seeing this as more a blend of things? I'm just

Natalie: 25:45

curious. I think it can depend a lot on like their individual ex. Experience. Mm-hmm. or maybe even how long they contemplated leaving. Cause some people really mull this over for like a year or two. And so once they finally walk out the door, they feel a sense of strength now because they, they really felt prepared and they did it. But some other situations happen where people are sometimes almost forced out of an environment like that. And that can. That can be, its its own kind of trauma, like almost the next communication or, or, uh, we're starting to reject your pushback. And so now I'm kind of forcibly removed. And so those people tend to really internalize it as, as like something, something's really flawed with me. Mm-hmm. but they didn't want me as who I am in this group, or they didn't trust me for who I am. Um, but I do hear a very common theme among spiritual abuse is a lot of. Like I said, when there's a lot of teaching around shame or, or I'm inherently sinful and flawed at the core and can't be trusted now once I've also lost my community. For some people that reinforces those beliefs. Mm-hmm. even if they want to not not believe those beliefs anymore. There's this, this struggle, it's almost like I think of it as a tug of war of like mm-hmm. I don't believe that, but like my body believes that. Right. So I'm having these responses of as, as if it's true. Maybe logically I'm detaching from that belief. Mm-hmm. and protecting it. But I, a lot of people do internalize it in some sense of, I don't think I can, trust me, can I trust me? Mm-hmm. and. That's why when I talked before about this kind of starting at the base and building up, who am I and am I okay? Am I good? Am I, am I inherently evil or mm-hmm. what does that look like? Um, so a, a lot of these things bring us back to very foundational questions of who am I? Because the core of a person is really attacked with spiritual abuse.

Stephanie: 27:39

Right, Because with some of the other types of abuse that we might see there, there may be more externally focused. But I'm thinking, and, and reel me in here if this is too neat of an analogy. But you know, I've, I've worked a lot with sexual abuse and trauma over my career and that reminds me of how that's also, Yes, people would say that's something that also attacks the core of you and is I would personally. Again, I'd be so interested to hear your thoughts in this, but I would personally say that sexual abuse, which can be related to some, you know, it can go along with spiritual abuse, is also spiritually abusive in its own right, because you are attacking the, the very core, like the deepest self of that person. Absolutely.

Natalie: 28:20

In a sense, you could argue almost any abuse of spiritual abuse because, It's, it's degrading the person at their core, right? Mm-hmm. abuse is a control manipulation thing. Mm-hmm. right? Yes. And so I'm not respecting you as your own autonomous person worthy of dignity. So, Yes. And, and I, and sadly too, we hear way too many tales of sexual abuse within churches. Right. I mean, the thing most people might jump to is the thoughts of like, clergy abuse within Catholic churches. Mm-hmm. that, that's been more in the news for longer period of time, perhaps. There's a lot more of that coming out with the evangelical churches, but that very often within a church coincides with a active spiritual abuse. Mm-hmm. in the sense of I am probably a, a spiritual leader over you who's, who's also sexually abusing you. And so that, that's incredibly insidious too. Mm-hmm. The other thing that's, that's kind of fascinating and and tragic is a lot of stories I've heard of survivors who've gone through even sexual abuse within church will say the most traumatizing thing was the community not backing the survivor. Mm-hmm. and them, but siding with the abuser. or rejecting and shaming the victim. And so they found that secondary response is somewhat more traumatizing than the original abuse. Mm-hmm. So again, I think this speaks back to this concept of how important community is for people. Yep. and you might think this was a bad apple. This one person did this bad thing, but my people have got my back. And then sometimes it turns out they don't. And so that, that's like a re-victimization, right? Mm-hmm. so, So now I'm having this reinforced belief that, man, I'm not even worth all of these people standing up for me. Mm. So to bring that back to like a highly sensitive person, I think this ties back into like their need for connection and community and how harmful that would be. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 30:15

Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, we're, we heal in community and if that's cut off at the knees and you have been damaged within community, like you said, with that re-victimization, No one has your back, potentially, or, or there are some people that are, you know, listening and some aren't. I mean, that can be incredibly damaging on its own, but even, especially for highly sensitive people, everything is felt more intensely. Even if you're not someone who, um, you know, say for instance, you cries at a drop of a hat. That's a common stereotype of highly sensitive people and some people that are highly sensitive. are, you know, are more externally emotional, but just because you're not externalizing emotion doesn't mean that you're not sensitive. So when we see this often is, is highly sensitive men. A lot of it has to do with culture. There's no gender difference across sensitivity. The research shows that it's. 30% across the board, no matter how you identify you are. Um, there's women are not more highly sensitive than than men. But because of culturalization what we see is that highly sensitive men are often not showing those emotions. So they're, they're locking at all in even more. So just that to say that. You know, you may not be appearing emotional on the outside, but you're deeply experiencing these things inside, even if you're so disconnected from your physical body or your emotions for safety, because you've had to, because you've been told that, no, your experience is wrong or you're evil if you feel this way, whatever that messaging may have been. But those things are deeply felt, and they do have ramifications. They can't be attended to. So this is often where with a highly sensitive person, we might start to see those issues. Like chronic pain is a really common one. Yeah. High anxiety, um, panic attacks. We'll, we'll have to see some kind of externalization because all of that stuff has to go somewhere and your. Noticing more as a highly sensitive person. So fortunately, and unfortunately in the situations we're talking about, you're going to just notice more nuance and you're going to be more aware of people's facials, facial expressions. So if you are in that situation where you're being re-victimized by your community, not believing you, part of the trauma with that, that I've seen with folks is that they will maybe even be. Vividly recalling or re-experiencing what people's facial expressions were or their body language or their, their lack of response, that those really subtle things are going to be like, um, a neon sign in the middle of Times Square to them. Yeah.

Natalie: 32:55

Yeah. This also makes me think, and maybe we can jump here too, a little bit about like treatment and, and hope. Mm-hmm. and how, how do we get from this? But when we're talking about being cut off from community and community being damaging, it makes me think too of how other professionals who do this work have talked about offering. Support groups and things like that and find, some people want them, but Group of people don't who have experienced spiritual abuse and religious trauma. Mm. And part of that, this is theory of course, is, is that community was damaging. So, okay, even if this is a group of supposedly people who've gone through the same thing, I'm not sure I'm ready to talk about this in a group of even five people because what if they don't respond in a supportive or validating way? I don't know if I can handle that again. Right. So that, that's a little like side note as far as if you are somebody who's experienced this and are thinking of getting help. but you see groups like this offered and feel resistant. That's okay. That's not for everybody. And for some people that might be a beneficial thing, but maybe for some more highly sensitive people, that feels super risky. Mm-hmm. especially right out at the gate, maybe farther down the healing line, that's a great way to reintegrate into a community and find some safety. Mm-hmm. But um, but it really is about trusting your gut..

Stephanie: 34:11

Right. It is, it is. And I'm so glad you mentioned that too, because yeah, some highly sensitive people in, in general, you know, even without this LA layer of spiritual abuse, they're maybe going to be naturally reticent about joining a group. We do have highly sensitive extroverts and they are 30% of, of the overall H S P groups, but 70. Roughly of all highly sensitive folks are introverts, so it can feel really intimidating to go into a group of strangers and put yourself out there, even if it's a small, you know, air quotes, small group of three to five people that may stop you from going. So I love that you just normalize, like that doesn't ever have to be part of healing for you. Or it can be later that this can look different for anyone. Yeah. So if, if maybe small groups or. Uh, maybe if that feels out, where could people start to begin on a path to healing? Do you have any suggestions for folks if they've experienced spiritual?

Natalie: 35:09

Yeah, there are, there are different books and resources and podcasts out there. And I think sometimes that the initial part of healing can be the validation piece. Mm-hmm. I am not alone. This is happening to other people. This is not happening. Just to a few people is having to a, a lot of people. Yeah. Right. And so we can find a little bit of strength and a boost to start. Talking about this or getting help when we, when we find some other people's shared experience mm-hmm. that doesn't have to be in a group, but that can be through podcasts, books, things like that. And we, we can share some resources in our show notes too, which can be helpful for people. But, but I also think finding a therapist who understands, um, you know, when we're talking about the intersection of a highly sensitive person, it would be great if they, you know, are least educated on the HSP presentation and what that experience is like. but also really well versed in trauma. Mm-hmm. Um, there is a directory, um, it's actually an international directory now of, of therapists who focus on religious trauma and spiritual abuse. And we can post that too in our show notes as maybe a helpful springboard for people. But, but we can talk too, but like hopefully most therapists are offering consult calls to clients before scheduling, or if not at an intake appointment. Really preparing yourself to ask some good questions about, you know, the, the therapist's education on trauma or understanding of maybe religious trauma or spiritual abuse. And again, like the highly sensitive experience cuz we're talking about, that's, that's a pretty specific little, little niche we're talking about. Not, not many people ask specific focus, but there should be people with overlap of knowledge, even if that's not their specific focus of the. So, so can you talk a little bit about that, even, like, what, what are some questions to

Stephanie: 36:53

ask? Yeah. And I think this can be such a revolutionary thought for many people too. Yeah. Because, especially if you're highly sensitive, I'm, I'm generalizing broadly, but you tend to, you know, want to do the appropriate thing and you're, you're typically more focused on what's, what's the right thing to do in this situation? So, Might seem a little counterintuitive for highly sensitive folks to go, Wait, I can come into a consult, call a therapy session and be asking these questions of a professional, you know, of, of a therapist that can feel really scary and intimidating. So just normalizing that is huge. That yes, this is a professionally trained specialist, but also a therapist is someone who is really here to serve you and to be someone that can understand, you know, maybe not. Single situation that you've been through, that's, that's just typically not possible, but can have an open mind and can be educated, at least at a foundational basic level, enough where they can support you. So this can be where listening to your gut can be important to, and if that doesn't feel accessible, then just maybe showing yourself. You, there's some grace or some compassion if it feels really tough. So some questions that you can ask as a highly sensitive person are, you know, what's, what's your understanding of temperamental sensitivity? Or, Or have you heard of highly sensitive people? And if they haven't, that's not necessarily a deal breaker. There's a lot of great therapists out there who. May or may not be highly sensitive themselves, who don't know of the, the trait of high sensitivity, but they have a certain, maybe nuance in the way that they can provide therapy. They maybe seem to get you. And sometimes even even that, if you're maybe willing to shop around a little bit, you know, if someone doesn't feel like a good fit as a therapist, I think there can be this. Assumption that you have to stick with them. Like, almost like, okay, I married them. I'm, I'm stuck with them. You know? Yeah. But they're a service provider, so if it isn't working for you, you know, ideally being able to have that upfront communication of just saying, Hey, you know, I need, I need more of this, and this isn't happening, you know, in my treatment, let's talk about this. But whether you're able to do that or not, you're, you always have the right to seek another therapist or ask for a referral to another therapist if you just. They're not, uh, willing to hear what you have to say or they're not getting you. Those can be, those are really big things that I hear from clients that come to my practices. I just didn't feel like my therapist got me or it just didn't seem like they tried to understand me. So if you feel like a therapist is trying to understand your perspective, um, yeah. Even if they don't necessarily know about high sensitivity, that can be a really good place to start. There is. A directory as well for highly sensitive, knowledgeable therapist, and I'll link that in the show notes as well. So, like you said, the intersection of, you know, religious abuse or spiritual trauma and, um, or flip that mm-hmm. you know, that that's going to be probably quite a small niche, but, uh, therapists also might be open to educating themselves even minimally on high sensitivity. And that's within your right to. Hey, would you, would you be willing to, you know, maybe read a couple of of these sources? Um, you know, sensitivityresearch.com is, is a wonderful science based, uh, resource that also has the H S P tests on there that you can take. And so directing a therapist to that resource can also be something that, that you can do. And if they're not willing to do that, then that also gives. Gives you an idea of where they're at. Mm-hmm. gives you some information. Exactly. So how about with, with spiritual abuse and religious trauma, what would you recommend for folks that are, you know, maybe either on a consult call, not sure what to ask, or looking for a

Natalie: 40:43

therapist? Yeah. I mean, I, I would recommend if that is something you're really wanting focus on to start, at least with the directory that we can post. Mm-hmm. it's called, it's through the Reclamation Collective, So you can go in with some confidence. These people at least have some knowledge. But, um, but if you're with, you're doing a consult call with somebody who's not, not on that list, but maybe they say on, on their profile or their website, they work with trauma, that's a good place to start. But you might start asking questions just about, have you ever heard of the term spiritual abuse and religious trauma? Um, do you have knowledge of that? You know, um, some people might not have a clue what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Um, and that gives you some information. Some people might say, you know, I've started to read about that and it's an interesting thing that's kind of emerging. Um, but I think just asking that question and, and, and asserting yourself enough to say like, this is really what I'm looking for help with, and I'm wondering if that's something you can help me with. Um, but I think asking those questions of, you know, I, I need to come slow slowly into this. Maybe, are you willing to go at my pace? Are you willing to kinda follow my lead? Those are also really important questions because I mean, I, I'm guessing you would agree with me here, that we, you know, believe in the autonomy of our clients and if they're uncomfortable, we are absolutely not going there. That is, We, our job is not to force anybody into anything. Um, that's the opposite of healing So, um, because this work is a lot about learning autonomy and finding your voice in the healing process, you're gonna really want somebody who understands that and is gonna live that out in the therapy.

Stephanie: 42:19

And such an important point because highly sensitive people typically will need to go, and again, this is broadly generalizing, but they typically will need to go a little more moderately paced or even slower in therapy if you've had trauma because especially if there's complex trauma and, and that's. You know, compared to single incident trauma where you have one big thing that happens is typically how people think of that complex trauma is much more of what we're typically seeing with the kind of trauma that we're talking about today, where it's multiple instances or it's over a long developmental span of time. So there are more things that are activating and. Deeply painful. So we need to approach those typically with more care. And when you're sensitive, that can be even more dysregulating to your nervous system. So we really need to proceed with caution That said, It's really finding that sweet spot, uh, with a therapist who will, will push you a little bit. But with, when you have autonomy, so where you are able to be in the driver's seat, you feel safe, you feel like they have the skills to help you come back down if you need to, and they're not pushing you outside of that window of tolerance. But also, um, you know, sometimes when we're, when we're doing trauma work, everything feels really terrifying. Even, even if it's. An in very, um, introductory step. So being able to inch our way forward and feel confident about that, um, without getting stuck is important. So I, I love your point about just vetting someone's experience with trauma. You know, um, what's, what's their background like as a therapist? Are there certain areas of, of trauma work that they're, may be more competent in than others? Mm.

Natalie: 44:00

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think this is a great conversation.

Stephanie: 44:04

I am really loving that we talked about the intersection of, you know, these types of trauma and how it can show up for highly sensitive folks, and we'll absolutely link those things in the show notes of resources for

Natalie: 44:15

folks. All right, sounds great.

Stephanie: 44:17

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Natalie.

44:22

Thank you for joining Stephanie and I, as we talked about the intersection between the highly sensitive person's experience and religious trauma. We're hoping that you learned something new and something that can be helpful And don't forget to subscribe if you find this podcast to be helpful. So there'll be in the know about new episodes as they come out. As always i look forward to continuing the. conversation next time