Episode 57: Boundaries

Hello!..

...and welcome back to another episode of Stairway to Redemption. I can't believe it took me over 50 episodes to have one dedicated to boundaries. Thanks to this week's guest, Barb Nangle, a bondary coach, we are finally addressing this very important subject. As usual please follow us on social media and support us on Patreon.

Where to find Barb
Website: https://higherpowercc.com/podcast/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/higherpowercoaching/

Transcript

Benyi: 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? Okay. Bye. I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what's going to work for you. It is our journey together. Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Stairway to Redemption. This week, my guest is Barb Nangle, a boundary coach. I can't believe it took me over like 56 episodes to have an episode on, uh, boundaries, knowing that, you know, we talk about addiction and recovery and setting boundaries is very important. Uh, thank you for, to Bob for reaching out and, uh, you know, uh, giving me the opportunity to interview her because she's gonna tell, she's gonna, first of all explain why our boundaries are important, how to set them, different technique to set them, and why are there, you know, necessary, especially if you, you know, you live like in the. You different attachments are codependent also in personal recovery, who would like to set new boundaries. So guys, I just give you Barb. How are you doing, Barb?

Barb: 2:06

Um, so normally I would say I'm great, but you told me not to just say, you know, I'm fine. So in this moment, I am great, but. You wanted to hear like what's going on for me, like what I've been struggling with lately and it has to do with yes, it's catastrophizing. So I didn't know until I got into recovery that I could catastrophize and ruminated because I've always been a very positive person, but I didn't realize that was going on. I don't think I ruminate about the past anymore. And if I do, it's extremely rare, but not catastrophizing is very difficult for me. It's the hardest part of my life. It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but for me, it's often about money. So I grew up with a very deeply entrenched lack mentality in my family. And it's not just about, it's not just lack of money. It's lack of time, lack, lack of energy, lack of effort, lack of just so many things. And so I, usually I call it switching the channel, but I just learned a new technique. The other day I was listening to a book on tape and the woman said, my teacher said. If somebody called you and left you a voicemail and they said, Hey, call this number back and give us all your money. You would delete it. And you'd be like, that's a spam voicemail. She said, when you come up with thoughts that are catastrophizing, just be like, delete, that's a spam voicemail. And let me tell you something, Benny, that has been so helpful to me. I didn't know until I got in recovery that just because I think something doesn't mean it's true. I didn't know that I didn't have to believe my thoughts. And now I know it. But I still like, it takes me a while sometimes to be like, Oh, that's right. This is a thought I don't need to believe my body kind of takes over. So my body goes into the like fight or flight and adrenaline and all that stuff when the thought comes up. And it's, so then it seems like my body takes over. So that's the thing. Um, I have really been dealing with a lot of this week. I feel like, um, I reached out to a lot of people and got prayers yesterday. Um, and have been taking action. And so I feel really good right now.

Benyi: 4:11

Okay. Wow. That's, that's very interesting because like I just minutes before this interview, I think I was reminding on something too. Like I was thinking of a lie that a person told me while I was in, um, a way. Um, long story short, um, when I was in inpatient, uh, when I got out and look at, because my phone was taken away, I look at my phone and I noticed that, um, uh, somebody was using some devices in my apartment back in Philly. And that's weird because like I only told one person I was going to rehab and the other person, uh, the one that I suspected that went to my apartment while I wasn't there, when I asked her the question, she got very defensive and after thinking there were too many evidence that that was that she did it. Right. But every so on, on, I think about it, I'm like, because I didn't have a confession, I kind of ruminate on it, but I'm like, all the evidence is there. Like her friend left a note on my door saying that she was looking for her. When I opened my phone, there was no text from her. So the note was. An indication of whether or not I was home, you know, so if the note is gone on the front of my door, then I'm home, you know, the note is still there. So there were like so many techniques and I knew she could get the keys from, um, from the doorman because she was friend with him. And I was like, yeah, but you know, long story, like the ruminating and the stuff I'm like, like you said, like, I don't have, whether it's true or not, if I believe that it's true, I don't have to like, um, act on it because it's already done. It's in the past, nothing was broken. Nothing is just, I noticed some activity, that kind of stuff. It's funny how sometimes you ruminate and then I'm like into my, Oh, should I get angry? Should I get mad or something? She's in, um, she's in the trenches of it. That person, she's, um, she's not doing well. So, you know, but like, speaking of prayer, like we do, I pray for her. And I think that's the best part, like praying for a person. I'm with you

Barb: 6:47

a hundred percent. Right. Don't curse them. Pray for them. They need it.

Benyi: 6:51

Yeah, exactly. Because like, yeah, don't curse them because like, it's like, uh, what they say about, uh, prison men and cursing is like drinking poison and hoping that the other person will die. So

Barb: 7:02

yeah,

Benyi: 7:04

that's not, that's not good. But yeah, that's funny. That's like more

Barb: 7:07

than somebody that's in the trenches, you know, obviously they need, you know, so let's just bless those people. And, and, you know, for me, I've never done anything like that, but I've done some pretty shady things in my life. And so I, and so the way that I'm going to get forgiveness is to give forgiveness to other people and also forgive myself.

Benyi: 7:27

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Same here. I did some shitty shit too, but like, you know, that's. That's a bit like, um, yeah, tell us more about yourself, your story. I'm

Barb: 7:42

going to start in twenty fifteen when I was fifty two. I worked full time at Yale University. I was a program coordinator for urban education programs. And I hit a codependent bottom. So this happened because I was volunteering for a project at my church that served homeless people. And right around that same time, before the project started, this homeless guy named Dan started coming to my church as a parishioner and he and I became really friendly. And it sort of felt like a divine intervention, like the universe was getting me to know a homeless person so that when I started this project serving homeless people, they were like homeless people, not like the homeless to me. And so we really became quite friendly and a couple months into our friendship, there was a big, huge snowstorm here in New Haven, Connecticut. So I invited Dan to stay at my home. I now know that is not normal. And he did, and then he said, and another time, and then within a few weeks, he was practically living with me and not longer. I felt trapped in my own home. So he was a self proclaimed alcoholic and addict. Um, I now think he may have been a narcissist or had some kind of borderline personality disorder or something, but this guy messed with my head. Like I had never experienced. So one day I'm in therapy and I'm talking about him and I mid sentence, I go, Oh my God, do you think I need to go to Al Anon? And my therapist was like, yes. So Benny, I don't know what I put into Google, but I was looking for Al Anon and the word codependent came up and I was like, wait a minute. I've been in therapy since I was 15. So that's 37 years. I started reading self help stuff when I was 24. Um, I've done a gajillion like retreats and workbooks and workshops and spiritual groups and support groups and all kinds of things. And I never heard this word codependent. How is this possible? And so I started going to codependence anonymous and very quickly, I felt a sense of relief and I also remember saying to someone who may have been Dan, I think I need to be reparented and, and, but I thought I made that up. I didn't know reparenting was a thing. So six weeks into going to CODA, I go away to visit some friends, one of whom had been in AA for many years, and she had raved about it. Since I met her about how dramatically her life was transformed from AA. So I was like, Oh, you're going to love it. I'm going to codependence anonymous. She was like, Oh, this is great. Let's see if we can find a CODA meeting while you're here. And she couldn't,

Benyi: 10:10

but she

Barb: 10:10

found an ACA meeting, which I knew of as a COA. I didn't, they're the same. I didn't know that adult children of alcoholics. And I didn't believe that I qualified, but I was like, I'll go for you because her dad's an alcoholic and I walk in and in the opening reading, they say we re parent ourselves. And I was like, what? That's a thing. And then they read the list of the 14 traits of an adult child, which is affectionately called the laundry list. And I was like, Oh, my God. I then found out it's actually called adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. Now that I qualify for so my friend tells me I sobbed the whole meeting. I don't remember that, but I bought the literature and I came home to New Haven. I started going to a meeting within a few weeks. A women's meeting started in New Haven. I started going to that. I still go to that. And then a few weeks later, three other women and I got together and worked the 12 steps through the 12 step workbook. So about a year into my recovery, I was still going to CODA. I decided to let go of CODA because it just wasn't the right fit for me the way that ACA was. And that turned out to be a higher powered intervention because one of the women I was doing the steps with was going, started going to Overeaters Anonymous. And was trying to 12 step me into that program. I didn't know that. And so she got me to go to a workshop with her and I was like, Oh my God, I'm a compulsive overheater, which I didn't know was a thing. Nevermind that I was a compulsive overeater. And yeah, So they handed me a meeting list. This is back when everybody met in person, you know, and it was blow and behold a Monday night meeting in downtown New Haven, where I live. So I basically went from Monday nights CODA to Monday nights away. So I've been in ACA since April of 2015 and I've been in OA and we call it abstinent in that program. I've been abstinent since April of 2016. I'm down over a hundred pounds from my top weight. Um, but anyway, in terms of the, where my story goes is a couple of years into my recovery, I got, um, laid off from Yale university and through a series of serendipitous events, which I won't go into. I started my own business. And, um, I started my podcast, which is called Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery in March of 2018, and I really started it, Benny, to carry the message because all that personal development stuff I described before, I think that stuff is having scratched the surface of the iceberg of my life and recovery, like, melted the iceberg. So there was all this wisdom and recovery that I never heard of that was not making its way out into the world, which is why I started my podcast and it never occurred to me the podcast would have anything to do with my coaching business, but it turns out it's the number one way that I get clients. Um, the first couple of years I was just sort of a generalized coach and then of course you have to niche in, you know, in any kind of a business. And so it just made sense for me to be a boundaries coach. Because my core wound is codependence and boundaries are basically the antidote to codependence. And also, you know, I mentioned I was still working at Yale when I got in recovery. I was the only one in recovery on my team. I was the only one building boundaries and I was astonished at the ripple effect on my team. And I was like, wait a minute, like none of them are in recovery. And it just goes to show that like when you set boundaries with other people, when you change. The dynamics of your interactions, especially in a group setting, it changes all the rest of the dynamics. And so I really want to be a boundaries coach. Number one, I want people to have the kind of freedom and healthy relationships I have now I'm in my first and only healthy romantic relationship I've been with my sweetheart next week or the week after will be six years. And I had literally dozens of dysfunctional relationships before that. I think that's really the only thing that it was very clear about when I got in recovery. I thought I had it way more together than I really did because in some ways I looked on the outside like I have it together. I had a career at Yale, I own my home, I pay my taxes, I volunteered, you know, I would, but my life was unmanageable in many ways. And that explains my year, I drank really heavily until I was in my early forties. I've smoked bales of weed over my life and actually the first few years in recovery, I was still smoking weed. Now I'm like, I haven't, I don't even know, I think it's been six years now, but something like that, but I abstinence over, I don't do any of that stuff. Um, and so I, um, I decided to hone in on boundaries coaching. And I think the reason I'm such a good boundaries coach is because of my lived experience of, I know what it feels like in my body. To not have healthy boundaries and I know what it feels like in my body. To have healthy boundaries. I can explain what that's like. I can I can teach people the journey for how to get there. I can articulate my emotional experience and how I dealt with the emotions because that's the main reason people either don't set boundaries or they cave on them because the emotions that come up. So, um, just to back up a tiny little bit. What happened for me is the first 2 to 3 years of recovery. I built boundaries through this sort of meandering haphazard path. I didn't even know that was what I was doing in the beginning and after two to three years and I start I could tell like all of these are boundaries and I have them it's amazing I decided to start reading books about boundaries and it helped me like retroactively understand okay this is what happened and this is what I was doing and this is how I was thinking and this is what changed. And while I was reading Benny, I started, um, taking notes and I was often like drawing pictures to visually depict, like, what did that seem like to me? Because I'm a pretty visual person. Well, those drawings turned into handouts and those handouts turned into a workbook, which is the spine of my boundaries coaching program. So I've really come up with a way to accelerate the boundary building process for people so they don't have to do what I did, which is this meandering haphazard path over 2 to 3 years that literally within a matter of weeks, they can build healthy boundaries. I primarily focus on professional women who say yes when they really want to say no and who neglect themselves because they're so focused on others. Um, because of my podcast, the vast majority of people that I coach are in recovery as well. But it's, you know, I do have some people that are, and actually quite a few of them have gotten in recovery after working with me, you know, that I talk about it all the time and they hear the benefits. And so, um, you know, this is a mission for me. This is not a job. This is like my, this is my calling. Um,

Benyi: 16:59

this is what

Barb: 17:00

God has called me to do. And, you know, what, as I'm sure you've seen, like. We can't like we have to go through the fire, I think, to really know what our calling is, because like we like, I don't regret anything bad that happened to me. I remember early in recovery people saying, you know, I'm a grateful recovering whatever. And I was like, Okay, I'm grateful that I'm recovering. But I'm not grateful for like the adult child part or the compulsive eater,

Benyi: 17:28

but

Barb: 17:28

I've grown to the point where I am actually a grateful adult child. I'm grateful that I was an adult child and that I was a compulsive overeater. And here's why, because if you think about like, let's say somebody grew up in a family and they were happy, joyous and free. And then you take someone like me that grew up in a dysfunctional family and then I went through the process of recovery and became happy, joyous, and free. Who's going to value happy, joyous, and free more? Me! Because I know the difference between what I have now and what I used to have. Whereas if everything has been going swimmingly for you your entire life, you don't know how horrible it can be. Um, this just popped in my head. It's not, this is sort of along the same line, but I remember talking with a sponsy one time and we were talking about that saying the truth shall set you free. Well, if you have never lied and you've told the truth your entire life, you don't even know what that saying means. But if you've lied your whole life, like me, and you start telling the truth, you know what it means to say the truth shall set you free. And I thought I was an honest person when I got in recovery, Benny. I was not. I lied about cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, relationships. Um, I lied about mostly in the people pleasing department, like a lot of image management saying yes, saying I was fine when I wasn't, you know, all that stuff. So to me, that's similar. Like you don't know what it means to have the truth set you free. If you've only known the truth, you don't know what it means to become happy, joyous and free and how to really value that if you've always been happy, joyous and free. So I could go on, I'm going to stop there so that you can respond or whatever you'd like to do.

Benyi: 19:15

Oh, man, I was like, just listening because like what you I was just mesmerized by what you were saying, but like, um, no, like, I had a few questions. Let me see. Oh, yeah. So like, um. The beginning when you were telling me about the church and, uh, you, um, starting hosting, uh, um, that, uh, homeless person, um, was, was, did that became like a romantic relationship or, okay. So it was just out, but like, how were they, um, how were they able to influence you to stay around and like, you know, because you mentioned to the part that, uh, there were like, there might have been narcissistic, so like, uh, Yeah.

Barb: 20:10

So are you asking what specifically did he do and say to me, are you asking why I kept him around? I'm not quite sure what you're asking me

Benyi: 20:18

or both. Yeah, both actually, because, because most, most, most of the time, and I might generalize my experience or the stories I've heard, uh, usually romantically involved, he gives me attention and stuff and he was good at the beginning and then. The narcissistic behavior started and they kept that person around because they're longing for that. Oh, the good times we had, they know that it's those good times. So, so they're trying to hang on those, but like, since you tell me that you did not have a romantic relationship with that person,

Barb: 20:53

I was

Benyi: 20:54

wondering, the

Barb: 20:55

way that I can understand it now only came after doing a relationship inventory and, um, in ACA. So one of the things, one of the many patterns that I saw when I did that was that my codependence in my, because when I first did the relationship inventory, I only did it on romance. I didn't do it on friendships or colleagues or family or anything. I later did that, but I saw my codependence get worse and worse and worse. The last relationship that I was in before recovery was hands down the most codependent, barring the homeless guy. Like, I literally said to this guy, so my previous boyfriend before recovery, um, his name was John and one of the things I said to him, maybe three weeks in, I literally said to him, let's see if we can heal those wounds, like, I have that kind of power, like, that's what I went into that relationship with. So I had broken up with him maybe, probably not even six months before I met Dan. And then it was probably two to three months after I met Dan that I invited him into my home. Before I invited my, him to my home, obviously there was something going on that I felt like I could invite him into my home. I started feeling responsible for him. I felt badly for him because, especially because it was snowy in the winter in New Haven. And i remember one time having a conversation with him and at this point he was staying with me much of the time and i said something like you have it so much harder than i do and he was like what are you talking about he goes i don't have to do shit i don't have to be anywhere i don't have to do anything i don't have to have any responsibility and i was like what like to him living out in the weather. And having to like go to soup kitchens and go into AA meetings just to get coffee and be warm and having people say horrendous shit to you and not knowing anything about having any security or anything to him, that was easier than being responsible. I didn't know that at the time. Now I look back and like, he was afraid of responsibility is what he was afraid of, but I somehow felt. Responsible for him. So I started by doing things like giving him a dollar here or there, taking him for a ride, making him a meal. Um, I allowed him to take a shower at my house. Then I allowed him to sleep on my couch. Um, then I allowed him to do his laundry at, you know, at my place. Like it was like a slow, but sure kind of thing. And I felt like it was like, this is the kind of thing that I hear with clients all the time. Like, well, I have so much and they have so little, like, What kind of a person I'd be to refuse them. And so he, I, it's like, I feel like I kind of blocked out of my memory, what the specific things he did that messed with my head, he would like, Make me feel like I was crazy is essentially what he would do. Like he would say things and then act like he didn't say them or something. I don't even remember specifically, but I, when I hit that codependent bottom, I can remember the moment. And it may not have been the last day that he was here, but I was in my basement and he was with me. I have no idea what we were doing or saying, but I literally fell to my knees and I said to him, I'm having a flashback and I meant an emotional flashback, which, by the way. I'd never heard of. I'd never said that before. I'd never had this experience. I just knew that's what it was. I now know it was a trauma response based on my abandonment wound, which in A. C. A. They call that the soul wound. Well, he thought that when I said I'm having a flashback, he thought I meant I was having a drug flashback, which I've never done any kind of drug that you would do that. And he leapt into action. He was like, get in touch with your senses. What do you see? What do you taste? What do you smell? What do you hear? Turns out very effective technique for getting someone out of a emotional flashback. And I was shocked because the way that he leapt into action, he was the laziest mofo I have ever met in my entire life. Was just like, what the hell was that? So, um, I, I don't, I remember like, because I was in recovery at this point, starting to understand like, this is really sick. This is really bad and I don't need to feel this way, but I felt horrendous at the idea of getting rid of him. I like at one night I asked him to leave and I gave him I think a hundred dollars and he, he came back. He was like, this is way too much money and he came back and I let him come in and I don't remember who stayed that night, but then. I ended up taking him to his hometown, which is across. I live on the new Haven Harbor. He is, he was from West Haven. So I took him across the Harbor to West, to West Haven and dropped him off. And it was like, that's it. I'm done. And I got word from someone else that he was coming back to my house. So I literally left and went to another town and stayed with a friend. And here's why, because I knew if he came, I would let him in. Like, that's how bad it was like. Right. So the way I think of codependence, Benny, it's addiction to people and there was something about him now looking back with all these years of, of knowledge, he was an angel sent from heaven to me to get me to hit my codependent bottom so that I could go to CODA and go to ACA and become a boundaries coach and start a podcast and carry the message to other people. Like, that's the only way that I can understand that. Um, so I did eventually, um, you know, so he didn't come back and then what's interesting. So I mentioned I met him from church. He wasn't really coming to the church anymore. But a few weeks after that, I was the deacon on the door at church and there was a reading that morning. Um, maybe it was a reading that I did, but I remember reading a reading and thinking, he's coming to church today. I knew it. And when he came upstairs to church, I did not feel the like internal emergency that I had felt for months, the last, you know, couple months that I had seen him. And I felt completely solid within myself and had everything to do with all the things I was learning in recovery and I never saw him again after that because he knew Barb is different and I am not going to be able to guilt her or shame her into giving me stuff the way that I used to. And I really don't remember how far into my recovery that was, but it was clear, like I was changed and I really got the message like, I get to have my own life and make my own decisions, and I don't have to basically cut my wrists and bleed for other people. It doesn't make me a bad person.

Benyi: 27:50

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, yeah. Now, like, uh, wow. You, you unpack lot of things, like, especially the, the product resonated with me is like dev, uh. I have so much, they have so little because like, you know, um, I'm an immigrant here. I moved in the U. S. in 2008 and I have a bit of survivor guilt because, you know, I'm from a third world country. I made it here, I went to college, I have my degree, you know, graduated with honor, learned English, like, and I'm like, I feel so fortunate, but yet I feel like that, even with all the work that I put in, that luck had to do, had a big factor in it, you know. And in my personal relationship, when, you know, um, I don't suffer, I don't think I suffer from codependency, I'm more of a avoidant type, but we're going to come back to it later. Uh, I let other people step over my boundaries because I was like, I can take it, you know, they're not doing well at the moment. I'm doing better. I will let them, you know, I was not oblivious at what was happening, but I was just too confident that I could take it, you know, and the problem with that at posterior is that. At the moment, yes, I could take it, but I will never like to go back to ruminating like, you know, and then after you ruminate, you're like, how can that let that happen? Like, they probably think that I'm soft. Then you think like that you start spiraling in your thought when. When, if I had at the time just set the proper boundaries, I will not have a spiral right now, but I understand perfectly what you're saying with the, uh, I have so much, they have so little, I want to help and stuff, but, um, I

Barb: 29:50

have a couple of thoughts about that. Is it okay if I respond?

Benyi: 29:54

Yeah yeah yeah go ahead before we move on.

Barb: 29:56

Yesterday I did a boundaries workshop in a recovery community and somebody said he was telling me a situation where he allowed someone to take advantage of him and he doesn't do it anymore and then he gave a new example and he said you're you're, Um, You're mistaking my kindness for weakness. I was like, Ooh, that's good. I'm totally going to use that. Um, so what that situation was that somebody kept, he was going in downtown New Haven and the same guy kept asking him for change and change and change. And after like the fourth day, he said, this is it. And you're mistaking my kindness for weakness. And he, like the guy was like, thank you. You know, and then like, they have a relationship now where it's not built on him giving money, but. Yeah. In any case, I just want to say that in terms of like, I have so much and they have so little, um, I now, like I thought of myself as a volunteer aholic before I got in recovery and now I actually give more service to my community in terms of hours per week than I ever did before, but I do it by choice, not compulsion or a feeling of obligation. I do it strategically rather than at the drop of a hat the way I used to, and I do it. After filling my cup first, rather than trying to pour from an empty cup, what I learned, I don't know if you've ever heard of Ashley Kirkwood. She wrote the book. Speak your way to cash. She's amazing. She says, don't pour a cup, pour from the overflow. That way your cup is always full. And the only way you have overflow is if you fill it first. So some people out there might think that when we have boundaries, it means that we're not helpful. We're not giving anymore. The opposite is true. I'm actually more giving because I give from a place of abundance rather than a place of lack. And I mean that in two ways. One, I get from a place of abundance, this overflowing cup, because I filled it first and not from a place of lack where I used to try to pour from an empty cup and two, when I gave to the world, I didn't know any of this, but I was like, basically like me, like me, like me, I was, I was seeking people's approval. Of course, I wanted to be helpful, but just wanting to be helpful doesn't explain that you give to the degree where you're resentful and you get pissed off at people for keeping asking you stuff. Or you ask a homeless person if they want to stay in your house and you let them like, that's not about helpfulness. There's something else going on there. So I learned that I was an approval seeker. I was not aware of that at all. And so what that meant was I'm going to the world to get something, which is approval. I'm no longer going to the world to get approval. I want your approval, but I don't need it like with claws need it. The way that I used to, because I have my own approval. So your approval is like icing on the cake. My approval is way more important. So I heard somebody say last year, I so wish I could remember who they said, it's fine to seek other people's approval, but only when you have your own approval first. And I love that. So what that means. Is if you want someone's approval, but whatever you have to do to get it is going to compromise. You don't do it. It's not worth it. Compromising your own personal integrity is not worth it. And that's what I was doing, you know, most of my life with my helping, rescuing, fixing, saving, enabling behavior.

Benyi: 33:24

Yeah, I mean, like, oh, that's, that's totally true. And I cannot help but also relate to and. To to, to this experience and, uh, the, the need for approval is true. And I'm reading, I was was that a podcast or like a book I was reading where like, uh, like the need for approval is basically integrated in us, like almost genetically. Absolutely, because yeah. Yeah, because, uh, approval means that you have value. Value means that you're going to stay with the tribe. And if you stay with the tribe, you're going to survive. So that chain of, yeah, you're not going to die. But in a world where we don't need to live in a tribe like that. And me, especially, I remember being an immigrant. I wanted to integrate myself. And, you know, like the, the, the, the, what do you call it? The American dream, the experience. I, it took me like you, uh, after I went through it to realize that I do not like people. We're going to come to the attachment style in a little bit. Just after this, I do not like people. I like individuals. Like, so anything that's mass effect, like, uh, like, you know, um, like mimicking in group. I'm the one who was like, wait, why are we doing this? Does that make sense? Or like labeling or future signaling and those things that happen in social environment, especially in college, at parties, at bars, for me, don't sit well with me, right? And in order to cope with it. One of the reason I was drinking and using was it made it more tolerable for me to be in those environments. Right. But like, it took me after recovering to be like, yeah, you see, because, you know, the, the, the moment when I felt irritated at, at some time at parties was. Yeah. Those moments where the things were very performative, like, look at me, I'm looking alpha, look at that girl. Oh, I'm cute. Like, I'm like, no, you guys are not real, you know? And, uh, it's me. That's what I believe. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm not saying they, you know, they on the wrong path. They're not, no, it's just like, now I have my own. Yeah. Well, now, now I have my own approval that this is not for me, that I don't want to be part of it. And yeah, so like now I understand I don't need to seek their approval, you know, put to be part of the tribe or something, but, uh, yeah, to, to now, like, let's talk about the, um, the attachment style. We talk about codependency or avoidance. I will let you know. Do you have to define those for the audience and we're going to continue it from.

Barb: 36:22

Yeah. I mean, I'm not an expert on attachment styles. You know, I know the basic, um, you know, there's anxious attachment, which people like are chasers. And then there's avoidant, which are the runners. And then there's disorganized, which people that are both that's me. And then there's secure attachment, which people feel secure. Basically, essentially they got securely attached as children. Typically. And they're securely attached to themselves and don't like need or feel the need to push other people away, but you can become secure. I feel like I'm securely attached now. Um, co dependency to me is different. Um, co dependence is both, you know, both people, you know, the avoidant and the, um, anxious because it's co dependent. Um, but the typical codependent is the anxious attacher that's chase, chase, chase, chase, chase, but they have to have somebody to be codependent with. And so typically, um, you know, like the, the classic example is. The codependent person is the spouse or romantic partner of the addict or alcoholic. Um, you know, that, that's what most people think. Um, and that is a very common profile, but it's not always the profile, but a codependent is essentially someone who is focused on that, which is outside themselves. So what are other people doing, thinking, saying, what does he need? She need, what do they need? What is the situation need? What is the organization need? Or in the nonprofit sector, what is the cause me? So they're entirely focused outside themselves, which means all of the energy is going outward. It's a complete drain on energy because it's all going out and because we can't control people, places, and things. So we're tend to be exhausted and we pay no attention to ourselves and what we, what we want, what we like, what we need, what prefer, we put our needs aside and we act like, you know, like I literally. Went into my last relationship before recovery. I didn't say these words, but it was like, I'm here to meet your needs. I don't have any needs and this is all about you. And that's how I went into the relationship. Obviously, that is not sustainable and then I eventually resented him for not meeting any of my needs, which I really acted like I didn't have any of and then never told him about and expected him to read my mind and know that, but even if he asked me and said something like I can't read your mind, I would be like, I'm not expecting you. I can now know looking back through the lens of a recovered person. I actually did want him to read my mind. And I wanted him to just know, um, and part of that has to do with the fact that growing up in a dysfunctional family, what we say in ACA is there's three, three dysfunctional family rules. Don't talk, don't trust and don't feel so there was no talking at the family. You figured stuff out. By context, it was in direct communication. So now I understand the reason I wanted to read my mind is because I thought that's how it works because that's how it worked in my family, you know, so I went into it with like, I'm here to meet all your needs, which is unsustainable. And so if we, if we think about the codependent, um, like the classic codependent being the spouse or, you know, romantic partner of the addict and alcoholic, they make their entire life be about the addict or alcoholic and about getting them into rehab or getting them into meetings or making sure they're not drinking or getting them into. Um, treatment or whatever and they make everything about them and they neglect themselves and they forget they even have a life and you know, I remember hearing a, an Al Anon speaker one time say, you know, he was a, a, a father of an adult man who lived at home and was an alcoholic and he said, Nothing has changed in my last year of being in Al Anon, but everything has changed. So his son is still an alcoholic, he still lives at home, but their relationship has changed entirely because the father is not allowing stuff to go on. He is not putting his son at the center of his life. He is living his life. And, um, you know, has certain boundaries with his son and, and I was like, you know, that's a perfect, um, description of what it means to have healthy boundaries. The dad is focused on himself and his life. He cares about his son, but his son is not the focal point of his life. He doesn't feel like he's going to die all the time because he's worried constantly about, you know, getting his son into rehab or, you know, You know, lying for him when he doesn't show up for work and all that kind of thing. So, you know, learning how to build healthy boundaries is there's a lot that goes into it, but it's essentially learning to keep the focus on yourself, you know, like the serenity prayer says courage to change the things we can. And I think of, I think of the serenity prayer really is about being about boundaries. Like I need the wisdom, the difference between what I can and cannot change. Well, I'm, what that's saying is I need to know where's the boundary and the boundary lies between what I can and cannot change. So I'm focused on what I can change and I learned to accept the things I cannot change, which is other people, places and things.

Benyi: 41:39

Okay. I see. That's beautifully said. So how do we, how does one self, uh, set healthy boundaries? I heard, uh, uh, on one of all on the podcast, you are featuring the technique of the book ending. The book. Keeping the book ending. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's

Barb: 41:58

one way to help you like shore yourself up when you're setting boundaries. So a book ending, lots of people on recovery, use it like this simple method of book ending is having an accountability partner. So like, Hey, I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to text you today, Benny, and let you know I'm on my way to the gym and I'll text you when I leave. That's a basic book ending, but much more complex book ending is let's say. Okay. You have a really difficult boundary. You have to set a really hard conversation you want to have. So you might connect with me because I'm a caring, emotionally mature person. I'm not connected to the situation that you're talking about. And you're like, Barb, here, I'm going to set this boundary. Here's what I was thinking of saying. I was going to do it on Sunday afternoon. I was going to go in person. So it's your boundary. You get to make all those decisions, but I might say, you know, you might want to say it like this, Benny. And are you sure you really want to do it in person? Is this something that you would be better served doing on the phone? And then, um, so you make your decision and then on Sunday, this is where the actual booking, the real part of the bookending comes in on Sunday, you call me before you go to see that person and what I do with you as your, I call it a boundary partner, your bookender, I help you process your difficult emotions because it's the emotions that stop us from setting boundaries or stop us from holding our boundaries. So I help you process your difficult emotions and work through them. I also reaffirm you. And I say things like you doing the right thing, Benny, you deserve to have this boundary. You are not a bad person for setting this limit with this person. And what this does is when you go into the situation where you set the boundary with a person, there's somebody who knows where you are, what you're doing and what you're going through. And. Because you've already processed these emotions, you're much less likely to have them come up and launch them at the person. So you go into this situation, you set the boundaries, and then you reconnect with me. So this is the other part of the bookend. So again, I help you process your difficult emotions. Even if things came out well, you might still have difficult emotions. Like, am I a bad person? Should I said that? So I'm going to help you process that. And again, I'm going to infirm you, affirm you like great job. You did the right thing. You're your own person. You get to make these decisions about yourselves. And, you know, I had learned the basic form of bookending and recovery, but I experienced this form of bookending as an experience well before I became a boundaries coach with someone in recovery, and I couldn't believe what it did for me because the reason that emotions are so difficult for so many of us is we do a horrendous job in our society. Of dealing with emotions. We don't teach Children how to do it. And then if you grow up in a dysfunctional family, it's not only that we don't teach them how to have emotions. We basically, um, ridicule and shame, et cetera, them for having emotions or maybe even punish them. So we didn't have healthy adults to help us process our emotions as young Children. And so it's like we have like decades of emotions welling up inside of us. So when we have someone who's helping us process the emotions of that particular situation, we feel connected to that person. We feel like, um, we're not abandoned and abandonment is like the core issue for people who are in adult children, people who are in ACA. And typically it's because we were emotionally abandoned as children. Some people were actually literally abandoned by their parents. Or caregivers as children, but all of the people in A. C. A. were emotionally abandoned. And that's that core wound that soul, that soul wound I was talking about. And so when I hit my codependent bottom on the floor in my basement, With Dan, I now know that was my abandonment wound being triggered. So it wasn't Dan that was making me have that situation. It was the abandonment wound of my parents being emotionally abandoned by them as a child. And so one of the reasons that people don't want to set boundaries is because they grew up. Either in an enmeshed family where everybody was in everybody's business or they were abandoned emotionally or both, which was the case for me. So when they go to set boundaries, they know this is an enmeshment. And boundaries feels like abandonment, so they're afraid to set boundaries with people because they don't want to be abandoned themselves, even if they're the one initiating the boundary, it can still feel like abandonment. Like, let's say you're dating someone and you break up with them, you can still feel abandoned even though you initiated it because they were there and now they're not. Same thing with a boundary, you can be the one setting the boundary and still feel abandoned. So if you have this boundary partner who is with you in the process before and after and process your difficult emotions, you get, I'm not abandoned. I am connected to another person. So that's a technique. There's a lot more that goes into how do you know what your boundary is and what to say and all that kind of stuff.

Benyi: 47:07

In the case of the boundaries not being respected, uh, do you, uh, does the boundary partner has to check on the person to make sure to see what happened

Barb: 47:21

because

Benyi: 47:21

maybe the one that was supposed to,

Barb: 47:23

but your boundaries are yours are not your boundary partners, they belong to you. And so you're in charge of enforcing them. So most of the time, Um, when someone doesn't honor your boundary, you just repeat it. And because there's a whole host of reasons why people

Benyi: 47:37

don't, it

Barb: 47:37

could be that they forgot that they don't believe you because you've never set boundaries before. Maybe they have horrible boundaries, so it's hard for them. So, like, if I said, Hey, please knock before you come in and you don't, then I say, Hey, remember, I asked you to knock before you come in. And then if you don't, again, like, maybe you didn't hear me. I asked you to knock before you come in. And then, like, the fourth time I might get up and walk you out the door. And shut the door and be like, okay, now knock on the door like that may seem infantile, but clearly the person is not a message, but I've made it like a dramatic scene. There's no yelling. There's no screaming. It's just like you need to not need to knock on the door before you walk in the door. So you say something now, if someone is toxic, inebriated, violent, won't take no for an answer, then you need to talk

Benyi: 48:24

about

Barb: 48:24

it. But, like, I give a lot of tips about boundary setting, and one of them is be polite, and the reason I give that rule, because I think what happens for a lot of people, Becky, is they get pushed way, way, way, way, way past their limits, and then they explode, and it works. So they think, oh, that's what boundary setting is. People only listen to me when I explode. Well, they listen to you when you explode, because you finally actually followed through on the boundary. Right. And so you don't have to wait until you explode, but if there is someone who is like violent or like drunk as hell, you might need to be a jerk about it. You might need to be rude, but like 99. 9 percent of the time, you don't need to be rude when it comes to setting

Benyi: 49:06

up. Yes. Uh, that's what actually leads me to my last questions. Like, I think I'm fortunate enough to, I'm fortunate to be a man who's pretty strong. So when my boundaries are about to be crossed, I can just growl a little bit and people are like, okay, he's serious. But, uh, I wanted to be, um, is there a difference between men and women when it comes, because like most of the time I, I can do that, but I'm not sure, like, If a woman can actually show, you know, like a show of strength when her boundaries are about, yeah,

Barb: 49:43

I mean, the way, the main way I do it is I say it was self assurance in the beginning. I didn't, I was practically shitting my pants in the beginning when I did it, and this is why I needed other people. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just say it with a sense of self assurance. I know who I am now, you know, because I've been doing this for a long time. You know, like, like the boundary building process is what got me to know myself and who I am and I'm grounded in myself. So I'm like, that's not going to work for me. And if people like try to push back, I go, Nope, it's not going to work for me. Like, I know that this is really important to you and I wish that I could help out, but it's not going to work for me. So I just repeat myself and I don't like crank up the volume of my voice or anything like that. I never have to do that anymore. Maybe I did in the past, but I don't because people believe me when I say no.

Benyi: 50:32

That's that's perfect. Oh my God. Yes, we need to I need to bring you back for another because now like after after. Yeah, after this, I have a whole new series of questions.

Barb: 50:43

Oh,

Benyi: 50:44

I cannot say there's a

Barb: 50:45

lot more that I could talk about that we haven't even touched on. So,

Benyi: 50:48

yeah, we need to do a part two to this. Sure, but I want to, I want to thank you a lot, uh, Barb for being a guest to Stairway to Redemption. Yeah, I'm going to give you the word of closing where we can find you and stuff. So like, yeah, so

Barb: 51:03

I just came out with a free boundary building starter kit. So the best place to go is boundaries starter kit. com. It actually takes you right to my homepage. And on the homepage is where you sign up for that. So it's some of my best content. It's multimedia. So there are nine videos. There's a couple of worksheets. There is an article and then, um, I have 284 episodes of my podcast, but 35 of them as of this moment are about boundaries. So in the kit, there's a playlist of just the boundaries episode and it's evergreen, meaning every time I add another episode that is about boundaries, it will show up in that playlist. So you should bookmark that and then you can find everything about me on that same page. You can get to my instagram, you can send me a message, you can look about my paid offerings. I do private coaching for anybody and I do group coaching for women. Um, on boundaries. And as I said, I have a whole curriculum that I developed and I've created a, an accelerated method for you to build boundaries so you can do it in weeks rather than years. Like I did.

Benyi: 52:11

That's amazing. And guys, I'm going to add the show notes to the description so you can reach out to Barb easier. But yeah, um, thank you very much again. And, um, guys, I will see you in a couple of weeks. Thank you. Bye.