Episode 59: Redemption

Hello and welcome back to Stairway to Redemption!

First episode of 2025. After a long hiatus we're back this week with Brian. Brian and I run a weekly Big Book meeting on Long Island. His interpretation skills of the Big Book of AA makes the perfect candidate to talk about this week topic: Redemption. After over 50 episodes, now is the first time the subject of redemption is the focus of a podcast on redemption. Go figure why it took so long. As usual follow us on social media and support us on Patreon. Enjoy!

Transcript

Benyi: 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what is going to work for you. It is our journey together. All right. All right. Hello, and welcome back to Stairway to Redemption with the first episode of 2025 after a long hiatus due to the holidays. I believe the last episode was somewhere in November, December, but anyways, we are back. So this week, my guest is someone that I admire for how far he has come from. Um, the two of us chair a big book meeting on Long Island and listening to him weekly. And in his interpretation of the big book of alcoholic anonymous made, I think, made him the perfect candidate for the perfect guest for this episode on redemption. Uh, how funny is that over 50 episodes and we never had an episode on redemption, which is part of the name of the podcast itself. I know. Uh, but anyways, uh, let's tackle this topic. And, uh, without hesitation, I give you the illustrious guest, uh, Brian, Brian, how you doing? I'm doing good. How are you? Good, good. So let's start, um, state of the mind address. So for people who know, it's a question about, you know, how are you doing lately? Deeper than I know I'm just doing fine. I'm not doing fine. So it's up to you as your state of mind.

Brian: 2:30

Yeah. I mean, um, I, I listened to a few, maybe like the beginning of six or seven episodes today. Um, and I thought about this question. It's. I have a lot going on. I always have a lot going on. Uh, I think the first thing on my mind is, and it's something that's been prevalent in my, in my life, in my recovery, the last, uh, few weeks, especially as like how I say things and how they impact other people. So I'm, I'm going to try to be mindful of, of what I say and how I say it. Um, you know, the other thing that's coming up is. Uh, the internet is a funny place now. Um, in the beginning of my recovery, I, I love to share. I, I want it to be all over. I would never say no to something like this, but as an adult, someone with a career, someone with kids, um, things that I say can leave a lasting impact, especially on the internet. So that's, that's on my mind. Uh, I, I stopped smoking cigarettes 10 days ago. So I'm fighting, I'm working through those cravings. Uh, I have some financial fear going on, career stuff, just tons of things on my mind always.

Benyi: 3:45

Okay. Thank you for being honest with us and you know, it sounds like everybody life else life and that's a testament that. You know, even when we get sober and we in recovery, life doesn't stop lifing, right? It's still the same BS that comes all around that we need to deal with, except this time we don't have alcohol and drugs to to numb ourself. We need to be like big boys and, you know, think about those things straight. But I got you. Um, so, yeah, I mean, classic. Questions. Let's start with your story. How did you end up in recovery? Share as much as you want. Uh,

Brian: 4:26

I also thought about, I thought about this. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a long story. There's a lot that goes into it. And as anyone who, who probably is listening to this podcast, A lot of suffering. That's how I ended up in the rooms. Um, that's how I ended up in recovery. I mean, we could go really far back. We could just, it could be as simple as I can't stop using drugs and alcohol. I have a serious problem. And, and I, when I stop, I can't stay stopped. And when I, um, and when I start, I, I just, I go off to the races, you know, that's, that's really what it is essentially. Um, I know that people have, people basically can pinpoint Things that happened in their life. I have a lot of those things. One serious event that I would say, um, put me in a position where I was self seeking, looking to get out of myself, um, that catapulted me into addiction, but the reality is I just have a different biological makeup and alcohol and drugs affect me differently. And that's, that's why I'm in recovery. Right. But. Uh, my story is kind of impactful to others. Um, so just a short wrap up. My, my dad was killed in the world trade center. So he worked, uh, in, you know, in the twin towers on the 99th floor of, uh, the South tower. Uh, I was 12 years old at the time. And yeah, I mean, he worked in the buildings and, you know, obviously planes hit those buildings and collapsed those buildings and, and he's, he's dead and was dead then and has been dead all these years. So that's, that's something that, that brought me into addiction. It did not bring me into recovery. And I think I would have been an addict anyway. I look back, um, at my behavior and I had behavior, uh, addict and alcoholic behaviors well, before he passed away. So I, you know, I can't go back and say, that's why I came into recovery because my dad died. That's, uh, It's a, it's a important part of my story, but it's not the reason I got, I got sober, but so when he died, I was looking for things to fill the void, you know, to fill that void that lives within me. Um, and, and alcohol and drugs were, were the easiest, I guess, most readily available solution that I had at the time. Um, so a lot of people say, you know, or think that drugs and alcohol are our problem and that's not our problem at all. Recovery actually. It has nothing really to do with alcohol and drugs. I mean, abstinence has to happen. I have to stop consuming alcohol and drugs. But recovery is healing. Recovery is getting to the deeper parts of me and, and shining the light on them and, and bringing them to the surface. And. Processing them. And when those things go away, I no longer have a desire to reach for alcohol and drugs. So the real problems is deep in my mind and in my soul. And I have to, I have to process that. I have to look at that and, and that's recovery. Right. Recovery is not, Oh, I'm just not using, but what if I go and I robbed somebody? What if I'm, you know, one of my defective character traits is I drive pretty aggressively. I'm one of those people that I can, I can, I sw, I drive fast and I swerve in and out of traffic. It's a, it's a defect. I know that it's dangerous and it impacts others, but if I'm doing that, does that mean that I'm emotionally sober? Is that something that someone in recovery does? What about littering? I stopped littering a very long time ago. Um, just the other day I had this desire, I had a coffee cup and I didn't want to keep it in my car. Um, it had liquid in it and I threw it out on the street at a ski resort. This is two weekends ago. And I was like, I can't do that. I picked that up because that's not sober. It's not sober to throw stuff on the ground and to litter and to impact the environment in a negative way. So recovery is a lot more. That's just two very simple baseline examples, you know, and then, and then further, like, Recovery. I'm in recovery and out of recovery moment to moment. I, if I'm, if I'm acting in a way that is selfish and self centered and self seeking, I'm probably not sober at that moment, emotionally sober. So a lot of the guests that you've had on, a lot of people are in early sobriety. Like when I had two, three, four, five years. And someone said I was in early recovery. I was like, that's, that's ridiculous. But if people that have decades, they look at anyone under 10 years as being an early, early sobriety. So there's this old saying in Alcoholics Anonymous that, you know, it takes five years, you get your marbles back. At 10 years, you learn how to use them. And, um, that's, that rings totally true. So the point is in the first five years, it's all about just not using or consuming drugs and alcohol. After that, I have no excuse to be a scumbag anymore. My life has nothing to do with drugs and alcohol. Recovery is much, much more. So, so why did I come into recovery? Because I wanted to die. I wanted to kill myself. Um, I had gone from obviously starting to drink, use marijuana, use cocaine, benzos, opiates, uh, ecstasy, ketamine, the whole array of substances, and in the end, you know, I was a homeless, uh, heroin addict walking the streets with nowhere to go. That, that's, you know, that's 15 years of progression. Um, and it took that suffering for me to finally be willing to look at what was actually wrong with me and to start treating the internal sickness that's in my soul that caused me to use drugs and alcohol as a solution so that I could deal with everyday life. Those problems, once they get brought to light and they get processed, I no longer have a desire or need to use drugs or alcohol, but now I must be in recovery, which is a whole. So that's my, that's my

Benyi: 10:18

story, how I came. Wow. That's a, that's very beautifully said. And I like that, you know, you like, you emphasize the fact that the reason for like, it will be a travesty to just blame, um, what happened to you, the tragedy that happened to you with nine 11, how you lost your dad on just the sole reason on why you're using. And that's a perfect segue to my next question because. I mean, you have all the right in the world to be a victim or to stay a victim because that's a very traumatic experience. Right. And let's talk about it for exa for a little bit because expect, uh, nine 11, sorry for lack of, um, a better word, is a perfect example because I know some people who like reacted very differently to that tragedy. There are some people that I know that I've seen in the room that like 9 11 defined them. They have the tattoos, they have the shirts, they have the never forget, you know, like on the sticker on their truck. And you have others who like, if they didn't tell you they were there, you would not have known. So how, what was the click, like, what was the moment in you where you decided, yo, I'm not going to let that trauma define me.

Brian: 11:51

I mean, I have one moment that sticks out, but I just want to preface this piece of the conversation with like, it still does define me. So I no longer identify as a victim. I don't play into that part of it, but it is such a huge part of me. I do have the tattoos. Um, it does hold a huge piece of who I am, because without that tragedy, I would not be who I am, right? So if my dad wasn't killed down there and I didn't go through what I went through, I would not be who I am today. So I still honor that, right? I still, and that's the difference between letting a trauma and a tragedy take control and ruin your life. Or, uh, redemption being a topic, overcoming that and using it as a, as, um, a driving force to do better. Right. Um, so for years it did really, really define me and I played into that victim role. Um, and a lot of people, they were like, oh, well, if you had that happen, you know, you might be like him too.

Benyi: 12:59

Yeah, it's

Brian: 13:00

not, it's not true. Like my sisters. Are not like that. My uncles, my aunts, my extended family, they all suffered the same loss that I did and they don't do the same things that I do, you know? So, you know, what really changed was, uh, I, I got arrested, um, for direct sale of ecstasy to an undercover officer at a, at a huge rave in Queens called electric Daisy carnival. And I went to Lakers Island for, for about a month. And then I went to a treatment facility in Pennsylvania. And, um, I remember I was in like a small group or, or a big group or something. And I was talking about like, so in New York, people really identify with 9 11 and that loss, because most of us remember what it was like, or we know someone that died or someone's family member died, right? There's not that many degrees of separation, but outside of the state. And on the world globally, it's just an event that they watch on their screen. There's no, you just watch structures and buildings coming down and Oh, it's a terrorist attack and it's political and all that stuff. But like my, my father died there. Like my family was destroyed in that moment. Right? So I was at this treatment facility and I don't know what we were talking about, but I was saying, you know, Oh, they killed my dad, my dad's dad, just all this victim stuff. Right. And for the first time ever, someone said to me, who cares? Who cares that you're there? And exactly. I said, wow, I was in shock. What do you mean? Who cares? And he's like, He's like, it doesn't matter. Let it go. And everyone around me was not from New York. And I think that if they were, it would have never happened. Right. But they all looked at me and they were like, it's destroying your life. Let it go. And I was like, in shock, these people are telling me to let this go. How can I let this go? It's such a huge piece of my life. It destroyed my life. It's my family. Yada, yada, yada. Right. And, um, It took me a few hours because

Benyi: 15:18

I was, I felt, I felt like attacked. I felt like, who

Brian: 15:25

are these people that tell me that? But then as the day went on and I was sitting with it, right? Because when I'm using drugs, when those things come up, those hard things come up, I run. I don't want to feel it. So in this environment, I couldn't run. I was forced to sit with that. And after a few hours, it dawned on me. Who cares? Who cares that my dad died in nine 11? Why am I using it as an excuse to destroy my life, let it go. And I was not able to, that was my first time. That was my first time. That it even dawned on me that there was a different way to live, that my perspective was skewed and that I don't know what's best. And I'd been flushing my life down the drain for over a decade at that point, just because

Benyi: 16:27

of a tragedy. Yes. Yes. Like, yeah, like, man, like, that's crazy because like, I believe what you said, like, if you were in New York and somebody told you, who cares that will have definitely move like some people who have like, Oh, you don't understand why he went through. Like, I mean, that was a blessing in disguise that what that person told you, like, who cares? Like, that's, that's, and like you said, like, because. I know that feeling when you don't want to deal with something you've run to the drug and the alcohol so like you cannot sit on it. But like this time you did not have any choice and, and, and I mean, like coming to that real, real realization, sorry, that you are using it as an excuse reminds me of like, you know, I read a lot about psychology and stuff. And there's a guy called Alfred Adler, who is like one of the pioneer of psychology. With Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud, uh, while Adler is not as well known as the others is that his main, uh, thought psychology is that we use our trauma as reason to perpetuate our behavior. That is not the other way around. Like, you know, Sigmund Freud said that our trauma causes the person we are like, you know, and, uh, that's, that approach I think is the essential part of Quentin central approach that's promoted in the big book of, uh, of a, because like, you know, at the beginning, we go all over how many reasons you can have at the end of the day, they tell you the reason really doesn't matter. It's just, you're a person who's susceptible to drugs, to alcohol, and you need the connection to a higher power to, uh, to overcome it. And that, that makes me transition to, yeah, that connection with higher power. Uh, you, you had. Quite an issue, a roadblock on your redemption, on your journey to redemption with that connection to higher power, because you didn't really do God word. Like the God concept for you was like too much to, to buy in. Do you want to, to, uh, expand on that?

Brian: 18:48

Uh, well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because the conversation is triggering certain memories. Like I rarely ever think about that moment in treatment when. When the walls of my perception kind of melted, you know, and we're broken down for the first time and I have another, I have a very distinct moment that I rarely ever share about, um, that changed everything for me. With God. And so I left that treatment facility and I had, I don't know, maybe about 90 days, uh, clean, right? Forced. I did 32 days, I think in Rikers Island. And then I did just about 60 days in that treatment facility. And I came home and treatment, you know, it didn't change anything. It rarely changes anything. It's just a moment that we get to take a break and hopefully we can detox enough and then go do real work outside. Right. And I came outside and I, I, I relapsed pretty quickly, but I didn't really have a tolerance, right? Cause I had no drugs in my system. I mean, no suboxone, nothing. And I was using opiates heavily at the time. So about a week later, I, I, um, I took two Xanax bars, um, and I was drinking and I had a friend come pick me up. And I, and I, this is my actual, my last shot of heroin ever. Um, and. It had been so long that I couldn't even hit a vein. So my friend shot me up and I just felt this, uh, obviously the, the rush and the warmth of, of, of intravenous drug use. And I just remember lighting a cigarette and everything going black. Um, and then I, so I woke up and this is not, you know, now everyone has Narcan on them, like addicts actually use like with Narcan in their pockets. It's like kids. Like people ODing and getting saved is like a thing. Like back then it was possible, but like, if you ODed, it almost meant certain death, like Narcan existed, but it wasn't like it is now where everyone's trained and they have it. Right. So. My friend, I ended up overdosing for eight minutes and I died for eight minutes. And he, uh, he was giving me CPR and giving me mouth to mouth resuscitation. So he was pumping my blood in my heart and he was continuing the flow of oxygen to my brain. And when they came, they hit me with Narcan. So I was blacked out and I come to, and it's September actually, or I think it was actually August. It was so hot and I came to and I'm vomiting and I'm surrounded by police and the ambulance and I'm just, I got hit with warmth from the sun and I got hit with light and I realized in that moment, life is very, very real. Wherever I just was, there was nothing in existence. There was no love. There was no joy, there was no connection, there was no music, there was nothing. And when I came out of it for the first time in my life, that was my first real spiritual experience. I came to believe in life. I came to believe that whatever was happening around me was way bigger than me, that God or the universe or whatever, it doesn't have to be some crazy, crazy Thing in that moment, I was like, there is something bigger than me and it's life. And I never actually, uh, did an opiate again.

Benyi: 22:41

Yeah, I guess like, yeah, you know, like that's crazy that like it, it takes those moments of, of, um, desperation to grab the concept of like, there's a higher power out there, you know? And, um, like I said earlier, that higher power is essential in like 12 step program. And now I want, like, I would like you to talk more about how you came in touch with, was it easy for you to, to abide to buy into. step program when you decided to turn your life around?

Brian: 23:24

No, uh, absolutely not. It took a lot, a lot of relapse, a lot of struggling. Um, so prior to this, I was only really going to, uh, and you know, no disrespect preface, no disrespect to any fellowship, to any way that anyone gets sober or clean or abstinent, or, you know, Whatever works, please. Like we are, we are dying and we are dying at an alarming rate. So I don't care how you live. If you are living better and you're not on the verge of death, like I'm cool with it. All right. But that being said, I had been going in narcotics anonymous. Only because back then, so AA is a lot more liberal now to drug addicts. This is like 12 years ago. We were not really welcome to share about drugs in Alcoholics Anonymous. It was not a thing. If we did share about it, old timers would come up and be like, yo, there's a, there's actually a fellowship for you. This fellowship is just for people that drink. So you need to go to this other fellowship. So I never felt welcomed. I didn't feel connection. I didn't feel love and joy in AA as an alcohol, um, as an addict. Right. So for years, I was only going to narcotics anonymous. Um, and I don't know, I just, I, I had a huge problem with the God thing, but I, I also wasn't really being offered a solution, a genuine viable solution. Right. Right. I would go there and I would share and then I'd leave and I'd go pick up every single day. So basically I had, I had to have that experience. I had to struggle. I had to, you know, hit walls. Um, and every time, so, so basically my very first sponsor that I came in touch with later, um, in Alcoholics Anonymous. It was a younger meeting and he used to say, you know, you might not get sober this time. And, and when you sponsor people, they might not get sober, but every time you plant a little mustard seed and mustard seeds grow into these huge bushes, they're like an overwhelming weed, right? So those seeds were being planted even back then I was little seeds were getting planted every time that I was using every time I went to treatment every time I had a new counselor or new therapist or new case act or whatever. And, uh, eventually it came to the point where I met people. I met someone he's passed away now at an NA meeting. And he pulled me aside and he said, Hey man, why are you over here? And I was like, what do you mean? This is where we belong. He's like, nah, nah, nah. You're you're doing it wrong. He's like, do you like your, your drugs cut? And water down. I said, no, he's like, so you have to come to alcoholics anonymous. And furthermore, you have to go to big book solution based meetings that go through the original 164 pages of our original text, and you have to do the 12 steps, the way that they were written in that book, you have to go to the source, to the start of it. You want the rawest form of it. I said, but I'm not welcome. He's like, you're just going to the wrong meeting. So he brought me to this young YPA meeting. It was called, it doesn't matter what it's called, but, uh, for the first time in my life, recovery looked attractive to me up until that point. It was in certain meetings. It was a lot of complaining about problems and there wasn't really much recovery. Um, and then in, in the other side of it. In the old timer AA, it was like, you're not welcome here. And if you don't just drink, you can't, you don't belong. And then also like, you know, when you're I'm 21 at this point, like when you're 21 years old, it's very hard to walk into a room with 60, 70, 80 year olds and identify with them. Like they tell you. You have to find somebody that has what you want. And I was walking into these rooms and neither rooms in the NA side or the ASA side, none of them had what I want on one side, they're complaining about their problems and just struggling on the other side, they they've got, you know, a bunch of foreclosures and failed divorces and. Uh, you know, failed marriages and, and they, they're not seeing their kids. It was just, that's how I felt at the time. So when this kid brought me to a room with other young people, that's when it really, it really became attractive to me and something that was viable. I didn't believe that recovery was possible until I came to believe that it was working for these people. So how, how did I come to believe that maybe this could work for me? I was around these younger people and they were working the 12 steps, man. They were going through the big book, Alcoholics Anonymous. They had this bright look in their eyes. They had clear skin, clean clothes. They had jobs, cars, successful relationships. They were laughing. They were having fun. And I said, okay. They said, do you want what we have? And I said, yeah, I want what you guys have. I haven't left in years. I was so addicted to opiates that I hadn't even gone out in the sun and felt warmth. I was either numb on drugs or withdrawing from drugs. And you could be in a 90 degree day in the sun. And if you're withdrawing from substance, you are going to feel freezing cold. And that's how I was living. I was living a cold, dark existence. And these young people showed me. Attraction rather than promotion. I was attracted to the vibration that they were giving off. And I didn't understand what that was. Later, I came to find out I was attracted to God and to a higher power that was working and flowing through these people. That was the vibration. The vibration wasn't, Oh, we're just here not picking up no matter what struggling to get 30 days. No, they were saying, no, we have a solution. Drugs and alcohol are not a problem for us anymore. They never were a problem and we're treating the real problem. And now that we found God, everything is good. And not only is it good, it's very good. So when I'm faced with that, that option, do you want what we have? Hell yeah. I want what you have. You guys look like you're living life. Okay. Well, the way that we got that was God and we found God through the 12 steps and that's what made me open to.

Benyi: 30:27

Yeah. I mean, like, that's like, like you said, a program of attraction, not promotion, and that's, that's, that's a very great blessing because like now you make me realize how important it is to find the community where we belong. Because. That's how the work starts, right? Because you want, like you said, you want what other people have in the space of recovery in order for you to start your journey yourself, right? Um, but like, I want to, I want, I want to run this by you, right? And I've been guilty of this at, at some point during my, I mean, I'm only like two years sober, but I remember my first, first couple days when I was going to meetings. You know, I was just happy to, to find my people, you know, like just to find my tribe and my community feeling. And like, you see, like, you know, having other people who are doing well, who are there, but it took me a minute before diving into the big book and the 12 step itself, right? Because this is where the meat and potatoes of the program is like, you can hang out in the room as long as, as you want, if you don't do the work, you're probably not going to. Stay sober because like, that's not that because you, that's not how I believe. That's not how one stays spiritually fit, but there's a certain feeling and like glamorous feeling of, you know, hanging, hanging out with your peers. So like, what was like for you at one moment you were like, okay, yeah, I found my tribe. I like hanging out with these people. It's fun, but now I need to work. Like, do you remember that moment?

Brian: 32:27

Yeah, I do. So I, so I started running with those people. Um, there's two things that really happened. So I started running with those people. Um, and this was shortly after that overdose. I got introduced to the, this, these people. Um, and I really was just like you said, like that glamour. There was, there's, there's beauty in it and there's, there's It's, it's fun again, like the way that we were living, it might've been a party in the beginning, but I was not partying. I was not enjoying myself, you know, like I'm walking around on the street, like with nowhere to go. It's not like, Oh, I'm hanging out, having a good time. So it really was a relief. And the, the other thing too, is they were very, very accepting and very open and loving. Bye. And it didn't matter who I was, what I was going through, where I had been. It was just like, it's all good. Like, you're welcome here and you're safe. And the way that you feel is valid. And that's okay. So like, I, I'm actually guilty of it now where I'm not as nice. Because the way that I look at it is like, this is a life and death errand. And like, people are dying. And people don't stay sober. Like a lot of the people that I'm talking about right now, they're not sober anymore. Right? So you cannot stay sober on fellowship. At some point we have to transition into the recovery portion, AKA the 12 steps that must be our foundation. But in the beginning you need that connect, you must, right? So. What happened was I was hanging out and, um, there was a friend, I'm still friends with him. He's still sober, but he no longer comes to the rooms. Right. And, um, I just spoke to him last week and he used to have a lot of us at his apartment. I walked into his apartment and there was a girl that I went to high school with. She was a year older than me. She was very wealthy, came from an extremely wealthy family. And she was very beautiful and very, very popular in high school. So there was a bit of intimidation, right? Like. And I walk in and I see her and I'm like, what are you doing here? And she says, Brian, what do you mean? What are you doing here? I've been here the whole time. And in that moment, I was shocked. And through that night, we were just conversing and I really, really liked who she was and she was not who she was before. Prior to this, she was judgmental, very clicky, kind of, you know, Snobby, not nice. That's who she was growing up. And the person that was sitting in front of me was just vibrating that light that I, that I had mentioned, just loving, kind, accepting. And I was like, Oh my God, this is where, this is what it's about. So a lot of people don't have a second step experience come to believe that this can work for them. Until they see that it worked for someone that they know. So a lot of my friends saw me after my first year or two, and they were like, what the hell happened to you? If you can do this, I can do this. And I was able to give that light to others to be that example for others. But so she did that for me where it really opened me up. And then I was at the time, same exact timeframe. I was really close with this one guy, Kyle, and we were best friends. We were inseparable and that's the beauty in recovery too. You can connect with people on a level that you never would have because it's not superficial and it's not shallow. There's no ulterior motives. You're just in a regular friendship. Again, it's almost like being really young and having that, that first friendship experience, right? Yeah. So he actually, I was not doing a four step. I had read through it with my sponsor. Uh, I had taken a third step. I had been given the directions to step four and I was not writing. So not too long after that first story, we're back at that guy's apartment. And my buddy came from this guy, Kyle. He comes up from working with a sponsor and he's just got this, this light. He's just, there's weight lift off his shoulders. He's just different. Yeah. And I said, what's going on, man? He's like, oh, I just did my fifth step. I was like, how do you feel? He's like, I feel incredible. And, and I was like, so I should do it. He's like, you, you need to do this, please. And in that moment I was willing, uh, that's how, that's how I, it shifted to being open to actually moving away from just fellowship. Moving away from going to meetings every night and going to the diner and going to the beach. We, my first sponsor, I read with him and did work with him at a hookah lounge. We used to have 30 of us that would go to a hookah lounge in Farmingdale on long Island. Every Friday and Saturday night, there'd be 30 of us hanging out there. So that was great. Yeah. And it moved it from that moment when my really close friend at the time said that the fifth, the fourth and fifth step gave him this amazing experience. I was like, okay, I actually want what you guys have. I'm not just talking about it anymore. I'm not just attracted to this. Like there's actually a deep desire for me to finally go through with this because the fourth step is hard. We can, I, I, you're coded as, as there's so many ways I could paint it to convince you that it's not hard, but it's hard. You're literally diving into all of the garbage in your past and everything that, that's been driving your life for decades or however long you've been using. And you're saying, I'm willing to take a look at this finally and share it with somebody. There was really deep, dark secrets that I had, things that happened in my childhood that I didn't want to tell anyone ever. Right. So that's scary. But after finally going through it myself and getting that freedom that comes with it, I wish I had just done it sooner.

Benyi: 38:31

Yeah. Like, uh, I, I totally get it. Like, because the fourth step can be very intimidating, especially like sharing it with a person. That's not necessarily like somebody like a sponsor, somebody that you have known forever. It's like, it's taking a leap of faith, basically a leap of faith in the person who's taking you to the steps and a leap of faith, also with your higher power that you're going to end up, you know, right. Like me personally. Like the roadblock I faced when I was doing those steps was forgiveness, you know, like forgiveness is a, you know, it's an important part of that redemptive journey. And my fear, when I was newly, newly sober was that the people I hurt will retaliate, you know, like, because now I'm doing better. And I hurt them. And in my mind, they had all the rights to retaliate and to take a shot at me. And the reason I was living in the sphere was, I mean, it took me not until rec, maybe until recently for me to realize that it's because I never forgave. I never forgave those who hurt me. So in my mind I was like, if I'm not forgiving those who hurt me, why those that I hurt, will should forgive me. And I made a serious, like, you know, meditation moment and. Listed in my head, everybody that I think hurt me and everybody that I still have resentful men for. And I pray to God that I'll now forgive them deeply. And funny enough, Old roommate of mine who we parted ways, not amicably at all. Like, you know, I didn't like him. I had a serious resentment, uh, you know, uh, for him reach me out, out of the blue, like 10 minutes later, like when, after that prayer, I'm not lying to you. 10 minutes later, because like the two of us are going to a wedding to one of our mutual friends wedding. And he was asking me if I was going to go there. And I was like the beauty of this program, like sometimes they serve the PT and you think it's random, but it's not like it's connected. Like there's no way that text message comes 10 minutes after, if I didn't have that prior, right. But like, I wanted to ask you, so for me, it was forgiveness. Like my roadblock, what was your roadblock in, in, in that program in that, you know, like you had to God part, but do you remember something else? And that, that was hard for you to, to conceptualize or to agree with. I mean, so

Brian: 41:31

after that experience, right? So at first it were really fear, fear of being seen and fear of being accountable. But so I finally wrote the inventory and I shared it with my sponsor at the time. And I got all that freedom, right. That I, that I was looking for. So I think the, the big thing was fear, the, the fear of being someone else, of, of leaving the life that I have known for all this time, you know, it was scary. Well, all of these things make me who I am and that's how I thought. So I had this deep attachment that if I went through the program, that I wasn't going to be me anymore. That's a big thing. So when I finally went through it that time, coincidentally, I felt so good from my fourth and fifth step. I read six and seven, which is only two paragraphs with my sponsor. I never did any amends. I did like immediate, like my mom, my sister, whoever was close to me. I never did 10, I didn't sponsor anybody. I was not really praying at all too much. And I was just dabbling in some guided meditation. So I didn't, I had such a good experience with four and five that I never went through the rest and I relapsed, but I also needed that relapse because it, it showed me even more. That like this program works. So for the first time ever, the fear was removed because when you're new and you're just coming around, or when I was new and I was just coming around, I didn't really understand what the 12 steps were. I didn't understand what was going to happen. I didn't understand the higher power. I didn't understand how this, these groups worked. So that first experience of going through it, that melted my fear and it gave me enough understanding where I could come back. So after that relapse, there was one, there was. Um, one last recovery and that's this recovery. But if I didn't have that first experience, the fear would have been over overbearing and I would have never gotten to know the program. So that's really where it was a very important piece of my puzzle, a turning point, the mustard seed finally grew. So all these years of being in and out of treatment, in and out of rooms, You know, no sponsors, no home group, no commitment, all these things. I finally had a real genuine experience with Alcoholics Anonymous with the 12th person with recovery, and I now knew that it was real. So this last time when I came in, there was zero fear. There was zero doubt. I was not second guessing myself. I knew a hundred percent that the only thing that was going to work. And that could work was alcoholics anonymous. And I came in with a vengeance and I've never,

Benyi: 44:36

that's, that's, that's right. Like I noticed you talk, you know, about fear quite a lot. I'm, I'm wondering, do. Do you still have fears, like even after nine years of recovery?

Brian: 44:49

A hundred percent. So the longer that I stay sober, and I can only speak for myself, but I have a lot of friends that have a lot of time in recovery. Right. Um, and we're doing this day in and day out and, and we're learning as we go. Uh, as we go, the resentment list gets smaller and the fears list gets bigger. So the resent were, yeah. So resentments are actually, yeah. Not anything to do with the other person. It's all about fear. Um, it's really about that third column, right? Like I'm scared. Something's not going to go my way or it's going to go poorly or I'm not going to, I'm not going to get my way. Right. That's what the third column is about. These areas of self aren't going to go the way that selfishness wants. So what is that? That's fear. Right? So resentment is actually just fear. The resentment is how the defects of fear play out. So six and seven is actually about fear. Also, I'm scared of something. So I'm utilizing these defects. I'm acting out of character to, to make sure this fear doesn't happen. But what happens is fear is self fulfilling. So when I act out in those defects, all of a sudden the fear comes true, comes to reality. So recovery is all about fear. Um, and I definitely still experience a lot of it. And that's why I know that I'm still alcoholic, right? Because I still have fear. Those fears drive my behaviors. Those behaviors create harm. Those harms create resentment. And now I have a new amends list. And now I have a new fourth step that I have to write. So it's all about fear, period, and a story.

Benyi: 46:30

Wow, that's, that's, that's, that's very impressive. Like, I like how you said, um, those fear, those resentment turns into fear. Like the longer you're sober, the resentment, the resentment list gets smaller. The fears gets bigger. So, like, my question is, how do you stay spiritually fit then, you know? Um, when, when you, like you said, like when that resentment list grows and you feel like you need to make another fourth step, how do you, how do you catch yourself? Like, do you use your mind? Like, is there like a process, something you see, you're like, okay, yeah, it's time now to do like a, you know, another four.

Brian: 47:12

Yeah, man. Defective character. Yeah. Right. So it comes back to how I opened the podcast with it, like living sober. Being a person in recovery means being emotionally sober, emotional sobriety. And Bill W. wrote about it before he died, that emotional sobriety was the next frontier, right? So unfortunately he didn't start grasping it until the end. Luckily, these people have come before us so that we can be presented with these ideas sooner. Right? So how do I know that I'm not well? It's those bedevilments that we actually just talked about in the meeting a couple of weeks ago. Like, am I having problems with personal relationships? Am I acting selfishly? Am I reacting in anger? Do I have problems with people? Am I financially sound? Am I having a problem making a living? Do I owe apologies? How am I living? Am I causing harm to others? Basic 10 and 11 step stuff. And eventually, so what happens is if I'm not clearing my conscience and if I'm not doing the work, the real work, right. Going to meetings is not work sitting in a seat is not work, right? Even sponsorship, like it helps a lot of people thrive on sponsorship. I'm not saying it's. It's not, um, important. Right. But like, what if I'm sponsoring somebody and I go to a meeting and I come home and I yell at my kid and I take my anger out on my kid, am I emotionally sober? The answer is no. So how do I know I've been lucky enough that I get sick enough and I don't like it? So when bad things are happening and I'm, I'm butting heads with people, I'm having anger problems. I'm driving fast. Maybe littering looks good all of a sudden. Maybe I'm acting out sexually. Maybe I'm, I'm isolating. Maybe I'm not picking up my phone. I'm deading phone calls. Maybe I'm not, I haven't talked to my sponsor in weeks. Maybe I'm canceling on my sponsor. Maybe I'm overspending. There's all these things that I know are not emotionally sober. And eventually the suffering, the pain becomes great enough where I come back to reality and I say, Oh my God, I need to do some inventory again. So that's what I can say. The only reason that I'm still sober. Is I, I keep picking up my pen and I go back in that moment. I figure it out. Like it hits me. It's not really a thing in my head because when I'm sick, I don't know that I'm sick because perception and delusion is alcoholism. So my, my perspective is not okay again. It's skewed again. So I don't know what I'm doing is wrong. I don't, I can't think that through there's no playing the tape through. I'm using a broken tape deck to play the tape through. Right.

Benyi: 50:04

Yeah.

Brian: 50:05

So eventually, uh, some, I, I realized, Hey, I'm in a lot of spiritual pain. And what I do, I was taught in year two. To, to pray very specifically to ask God for direction and invite God into the areas of life that I'm struggling in specifically, right? Eventually saying the serenity prayer, the seven step prayer, uh, the 11 step prayer, and the third step prayer in the morning is not enough. I could repeat those words over and over again, and they could be empty and meaningless. So what I do is I hit my knees. I finally realized, and I asked God with full intent. Come into these areas, guide me. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm managing this again, and I need your help because when I manage stuff and I think I have power, I screw stuff up. So I do that. Then I call somebody, I tell them what's going on. Then I write inventory and then I go and I amend that behavior and that's the directions of step 10. So. The problem is you could work 10 and 11 to the best of your ability and things will go to the wayside. Let's say I have a fight with my boss today or, or somebody at my office and I come home, I might not want to look at my, my nightly review. If I don't look at my nightly review by the morning time, when I'm getting ready for prayer on awakening, I don't even remember the problem from yesterday. So now I have that problem sitting on my heart and in my soul, and I haven't amended the behavior and that is driving my actions. And now I'm acting out of untreated alcoholism. I'm not spiritually well, and guess what happens? I go when I cause harm, I act out selfishly dishonestly, self seeking or afraid that drives some sort of defect. And now I'm adding to this list. So it's something that it's going to happen. It's not like, if, like, if this happens, like, no, this is real life. Real life is hard. You go out there, you do the heavy lifting, you're going to butt heads with people, things are not going to go your way. Real life is scary. And eventually. It becomes so overwhelming I've caused so much harm or I've acted out without even knowing it that I must pick up the pen and write a full inventory again. And that is why I'm still sober.

Benyi: 52:28

That's wow. Like, yo man, when I tell you, you preach, I'm not exaggerating. I'm not trying to like, you know, blow smoke on your ass, but like, that's, that's, that's true. Like you so well spoken and like, I could, I could listen to you talk for days, but like. Um, last question before I give you the floor, um, you mentioned about sponsorship and what it meant to you and sometime, you know what it means, uh, to, to do some service. Um, You sponsor a lot of people, uh, you have lost some, uh, but I remember earlier, we talk about the beauty of this program is like also have the connection of staying sober with other people. But when somebody is not doing well, they're relapsing, what's your approach, like how connected to them you stay like, because I I'm conflicted with that approach sometime, like, you know,

Brian: 53:31

Uh, so everybody's different when it comes to sponsorship and, and the thing with the thing with life is like life has ebbs and flows and the only guarantee is that it's going to change. So where I'm, where I'm at in my life now at nine years sober is very different than where I was at five years and where I was at two years. So I sponsored very differently than, than I do now, but I had to learn through the struggle and through, through sponsoring people and through failing and through succeeding, how I have to do it for me. Right. And it's different for everybody. Um, and I have, I have had the beauty, like in the beginning, I had a lot of willing guys that went through the work with me Um, and they've moved on to new sponsors or they're in different places. But I, I think I have about six that are still sober to this day, since we went through the work and like, there's nothing like seeing someone get sober. And what happens is I'm not doing it. I'm just teaching someone. What was taught to me. So it's the power of the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and over and above that, the power of God that gets them sober. So when I work with somebody and the light clicks and they get clean and they get sober and they start living a spiritual life, it's because my experience is real. It reaffirms my process, right? At nine years sober, I'm not willing the way that I was when I was homeless. Now that I have all these gifts in my life, I'm not willing to do a fourth step all the time. I'm not willing to do as much work as I used to do. I don't, I don't suffer as much, right? So when I see these people and I see that it worked, I'm like, wow, my experience is real, it reaffirms the 12 steps and it reaffirms the power of God in my life. So there's that. But then on the other hand, my sponsor used to tell me, Brian, you can learn something from everyone you meet in the rooms, you either learn what you want to do, or you learn what you don't want to do. So. There's been tons of relapse, especially with sponsorship. A lot of, a lot, I've had multiple sponsees die. You know, what that reaffirms in me is look at the power of alcoholism. Look at the power of self will. It has the power to kill resentment and fear kill. What brings people back out? Resentment and fear, not working a program. So when I see people struggle, damn, bro, thank God I've got Alcoholics Anonymous. Thank God I'm still here. Thank you so, so much. And around five and five years during COVID and after COVID, I had a very strange experience. So I came in and there was a lot of people kind of similar to a similar experience that you're having with me right now, right? You have a couple of years. This is a guy, Oh, Brian, he's got nine years. He's well spoken. He seems like he's got his stuff together. Right? I had those mentors and those people to look up to also. And then they started relapsing. They started leaving the rooms and eventually none of them were really around anymore. Now, all of a sudden I go from looking up to these people to, I'm the one being looked up to. And that was a trip. That was a very, very, Strange time in my life because I was coming to these rooms still. And I was saying, I don't have anyone that there's no one around that has what I want. There's no one around for me to walk up to anymore. What I'm, I'm, I'm just a, uh, an alcoholic and a junkie. Why are these people looking up to me? So it was a very strange experience. All I can say when it comes to dealing with people that are relapsing, it's different for everybody. And I'm always open. I will always take a phone call. I always will pray for what's best for others. I'll always hope that you make it back. But there's an also an old saying that I was taught well before I got sober. We step over the bodies, Inaya. And that's sad, right? It sounds, it sounds harsh. When someone first said that to me, I was like, but what about them? I want to pick them up. I want to save them. We can't save anybody. I cannot save myself. I cannot manage my life. I have no power. That's why I need God. So I cannot determine that I have no power over anyone else. I can't even do anything on my own. That's a real step one. I accept that I have no power. I can not manage my life or anyone else. So it's a case by case basis. Most of the time, someone that's using is either going to come back on their own or they're not. No one was going to tell me that I needed to get sober. I had to have those experiences. So I just let people have their experience and that a lot of the times results in death. And I, I go up and I, and I look at the, you know, a friend of mine, Jeff died. I just remember being at his casket and just saying, damn, bro, what else, you know, thank God I'm still here. It's all, that's, I, it just reverts me back to, I thank, thank you so much for this program, for this life. I'm nothing without you. I am nothing. I am here by the grace of, of, of your power, your love, your life. And your way of life. The third step tells me I have to be a power of example for God's power, for his way of life. So that's all it is. It's like you do your thing if you're here and if you're ready and you're willing, sobriety is here and it's ready for you, but if you're not, then you're not.

Benyi: 59:32

That has nothing to do with me. I've got real big boy fucking problems to deal with. Yeah, I get it. I totally get it. All right. We're each, uh, we're reaching the end of this interview. Um, I'm giving you the floor. Is there anything else you would like to say before I close this amazing episode?

Brian: 59:52

I mean, I feel like, you know, we didn't leave too much time for redemption and, and, um, You know, in the beginning, I was thinking about it earlier. I was thinking about redemption and in the beginning I did want redemption. I wanted to overcome my struggles. I wanted to show the world that I could be somebody right. Like all that stuff is true, but that all comes from ego. Right. That's an egoic way of thinking. I need to show others that I've, I've redeemed myself and I've overcome these struggles and, and I have, and I'm grateful. So there's like a duality, a weird duality there, right? Like, so, but without that drive, I can't get to the goods. And the goods is I've done nothing. This is all just the grace of my higher power and a blessing to, of myself I am nothing without his power. I would a hundred percent be dead. So it later it shifts into, it doesn't really matter. Like it doesn't, it comes back to that guy being like, let it go. Like my desires, my, my, my wishes. is my I want money and I want fame and I want prestige, like real recovery, real spirituality is I'm fine with exactly what I have in the here and now. And when bad things come, I'll deal with it. When good things come, I'll try to embrace it and enjoy it. But for today, I just need to be in alignment with my higher power. And that's it. And in doing that, I've got redemption through and through, and I've been blessed beyond belief. But it's less about what I want and more about what I, what I don't need. Most of the stuff that my mind, mind tells me I need, I never needed them. So that's, that's my last little bit on redemption. All right.

Benyi: 1:01:47

All right. We're going to stop there, guys. Um, thank you very much to Brian for being a guest in the podcast and, um, all right guys, then I will see you next week or in two weeks, hopefully. All right. Bye.