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This month, host Bill McGeeney is joined by Scott Morgan, Assistant Park Manager of the Hills Creek Park Complex - part of the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, and Daylon Burt of the Astro Escape. Learn more at LightPollutionNews.com.
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What did you think of this Episode? Text Us!
This month, host Bill McGeeney is joined by Scott Morgan, Assistant Park Manager of the Hills Creek Park Complex - part of the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, and Daylon Burt of the Astro Escape. Learn more at LightPollutionNews.com.
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Light pollution news July 2023, people of light. Wow, do we have a great one for you this month. Record it on location, wind included at Sherry Springs State Park. We have Daelyn Burt, the mice show behind the Ash O'Scape YouTube channel, oh, and Scott Morgan of the PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources dropped by to share some unique perspectives on how we understand light. This month, we share with you the ultimate summer road map for your space-steamed flagstaff trip. Hey, there's a French town where you have the power to turn on streetlights. What do scriptures say about light pollution? Corals are in trouble, and much more. Stay tuned for another Light Pollution News, starting right now.
Bill:Welcome to Light Pollution News. I'm your host, bill McGeehany. Each month, we look at stories and topics ranging from areas such as technology to ecology, to astronomy, to crime, as they all relate to a very broad, spanning and impactful topic of light pollution. And even more exciting today is we're recording live churchman state park in Pennsylvania, pennsylvania's only dark sky park and one of the darkest places in the mid-Atlantic region of the US. This park is pretty brilliant place, relatively accessible to many metropolitan regions, including Cleveland, buffalo, pittsburgh, philadelphia and New York City. This month, i'm very excited to have two folks, one who you've heard before and one who you haven't. First off, mr Daelyn Byrd making a return visit of Asher. Escape, daelyn, how are you doing? Yeah?
Daylon:I'm excited for tonight. It's looking pretty good.
Bill:Yeah, it's even kind of rained out the past couple of nights. Yeah, it's been a huge bummer. Yeah, and it's no secret, I've been trying to learn astrophotography, trying to get anywhere close to what you and the gang have over there, trying to get the in and out and spend copious amounts of my unallocated money to a giant black hole, so to say. So, the past couple of months I dove into Pixinsight, And Pixinsight, for those of you not aware, is a spectacular imaging program. However, its user-friendliness is really a part of a Windows command prompt. It's really a very difficult program to get the curve one. But if you sit down with it you make progress And, like any good beginner, I scoured the YouTube trying to find all the information I could And what I know I come across. Asher Escape. Daelyn, you made a great tutorial on how to use Pixinsight, especially for beginners. Cuts out the crap. It has just enough details I need. I got to move real fast with that tutorial. I got to. Thank you a lot for putting that together.
Daylon:Hey, welcome. I'm glad I could help. You know, pixinsight can go very deep And, let's be honest here, there are people on YouTube that go deeper than I do. But it's easier for me to because of my usual profession, i can convert the tech to the easy for the beginner, the one that hasn't used it before, and I thought doing that with Pixinsight, like that tutorial, was a good place to start.
Bill:When I was looking for different workflows, I had a buddy of mine. We sat down, We went through some of the processes And you forget. You have to do it a couple of times and really figure it out. But then going back to yours, the way it was noted out, The flow and the fact that I didn't have to worry about getting too deep in some areas I don't need to know about not yet at least And I thought that was great. So it got me going. I was able to start editing the filters real fast, relatively fast, Maybe it took a weekend.
Daylon:Right? Well, these tutorials are great too, but don't be afraid to mess around.
Bill:On the other side, someone with an impeccable perspective on the amazing state parks and forests we have here up in the northern tier of Pennsylvania. Mr Scott Morgan of the PA Department of Conservation, Natural Resources, I don't know. Can you ask this how many acres of state forest surround these parks? That's a little trivia question. I was just curious to ask you too.
Scott:The PA Wild Tier is a very large region and specifically here in Potter County, north Central Pennsylvania, which is home to Cherry Springs, we have a very large state forest but we're also surrounded by four other state forests. So this makes one large, contiguous piece of public land and people will be surprised that between the five forests we have 1.1 million acres. That includes not only to start forests but state game lands, state parks, other county and town parks as well.
Bill:And then a lot of elk that are now moving into town.
Scott:Well, i want to say we had a couple elk last year who two bulls that were kind of looking for some mates, but they didn't find any up here at Cherry Springs County Fort, so they headed back down south, back to where they're from.
Bill:All right, Back to Benazeth, yeah, back to.
Scott:Benazeth.
Bill:Well, i got to say we love this area. We've visited many times to the wilds. We spend plenty of dollars of our Airbnb's up here, which I've gotten pretty pricey. I got to say Backpack Black Forest, quijana Trail, the wilds. For those of you at home who don't really know about Pennsylvania, wilds are not really wild, but they're really, as Scott mentioned, a string of state publicly owned lands that cross over into different counties, and I remember reading a state forest pamphlet one time that said this area is considered the world famous snow belt. Is it world?
Scott:famous When I was younger. I'm from this area, i would say probably in the early 80s, so that was probably true. But now, i mean the last few years, i haven't seen the lake effect snows that we typically used to get. I can remember, you know, snows as early October and deep though you know, oh man. Yeah, it was fun being a kid you know having that snow.
Scott:But this region, I mean we have, you know, Denton Hill State Park. It was a ski slope that was ran by a concessionaire that was publicly owned by the state as well. We concessioned it out to them, But it just hasn't seen the snow as it has before. So, and really the skiing industry has been shrinking over the years. I mean I'll just be there.
Bill:So yeah, yeah, it's definitely. I crossed the border all of Pennsylvania I know I could. Northeastern, far as the undisputed still has some decent slope stuff, i know down like Blue Mountain they've. They had to essentially blow snow all winter. There was no snow in the Alltown area, so it was, yeah, no global warming.
Daylon:I don't have to worry about that. I think they had seven springs as well in Pennsylvania. Yeah, they had to blow a lot of snow.
Bill:Yeah, it's crazy, okay, so why don't we jump right into it? So we have a very interesting show for you today, including some interesting news out of Minnesota. But before we get to that, it's June and, in preparation for summer, astro Tourism hit the news hard. This past month. We have this article from the Arizona to Daly Sun a day in space. Look no further than Flagstaff for your cosmos theme day trip. Start your day off like a truest genre with a caffeinated trip to Macy's European Coffee House, next head over to the Meteor Crater, then to the Bairnger Space Museum and then to Sunset Crater. Oh, and why not stop at Cindy Lake Crater Fields And, while you're at it, follow that up with an evening over at Lowell Observatory and possibly at the Dark Sky Brewing to close out the night. It sounds like my kind of trip, but not to be outdone.
Bill:The Matador Network ran this fantastic piece on 11 Dark Sky Arabian Bees in Utah. Perfect for stargaze. You can choose from a beautiful convertible A-frame house complete with plenty of windows and a hot tub to indulge in your starry sky experience. Or how about this? a two bedroom mountain getaway with a roof deck for enjoying a Milky Way. Or what about an earthen home near a Gooseneck State Park in the Rainbow Bridge National Monument. I'm sure if those night skies don't shock on all you, the cleaning fees on these Arabian Bees most certainly will. There's more, though, so just hold on. Have you ever wanted to find a perfect stargaze and campsite? Well, you're in luck. Hip Camp is unveiling a new Dark Sky map overlay for campers who are looking for those darkest places to camp And not to be labor to point.
Bill:But it really does feel like we're in the middle of a huge astro tourism trend. A new survey finds an increasing number of first time visitors at Big Bend are now staying outside the park and they're coming for the starry skies In addition to everything at Big Bend. It's a boom time. Near 70% of respondents took the survey and they preferred to stay outside the carg, which spiked the short term rentals. Spiked it so fast that the local officials are kind of scared that they can't keep track of the rentals for tax and regulatory purposes.
Bill:What's driving at Boom? It's clear to stand out point when they take a survey saying the stargaze inside. So we've been saying this for years now that our starry skies are hugely important part of Big Bend experience, and we have good data to back that up, per Sarah Allen Colando, a Brester County Commissioner. Big Bend Gaini International Dark Sky Reserve designation in 2022, with the hopes of boosting tourism. Folks who appear to be staying outside the park don't appear to be campers, but they still want to experience Big Bend and everything as they offer, all at the same time. We're seeing a lot of that appear, aren't we? Scott?
Scott:Absolutely. The Astro Tourism is a huge drive during these summer months, especially for the state parks. One of our visitor associations here the visitor bureau between the two counties website is visit pottertayogacom. They actually have real time information on lodging in this area and a lot of it is catered to stargazing in the astro tourism. I mean, if you look online too, with Erbo, you can find any number of camps in this area or rentals that you can rent just down the road here. I mean you have the Big Dick, the big and little dipper camps. You have, i think it's, a starry night camp. I mean they're naming their things about the night sky. You know, pick it out constellations and whatnot, which is very interesting. You know, attendance just since I've been here in 2016, attendance at Cherry Springs has almost quadrupled. I mean 2016, we were looking at 52,000. Last year we were at 170,000.
Bill:Wow, We were seeing the numbers that we're getting.
Scott:Yeah, and most of those are short term stargazers, the people that are coming from those other locations, i mean our overnight areas, our campground, the astronomy observation field here, you know, we'll see, probably between both of them We're looking at 12,000. Okay For the season, yeah.
Bill:You know. So the Galaxy Pass sells out like within a month of it opening The last few years. Yeah.
Scott:The last few years it has been selling out. We have 100 Galaxy Passes that we sell for $65 here for the overnight astronomy observation field. It's basically an annual pass for this area Usually goes on sale maybe a week or two before Christmas. We know a lot of our patrons like to get them as Christmas gifts. This year we were sold out, I want to say by February, which is, yeah, a lot of regulars were kind of upset because they didn't jump on the train really quick. It's something that we've been seeing in the last three years Last three years.
Bill:Do you have any kind of way to quantify what impact that actually has on the area? On the area, Yeah, Is that showing, I guess, some of the question I have? Does Astro Tourism actually benefit the area Or is it, as someone who I will not name it I had a conversation with yesterday, told me that it's better than nothing? Does Astro Tourism substantially benefit community or is it just better than nothing?
Scott:Well, i mean, we're an outdoor recreation public service. I'll put it that way, it's the Bureau of State Parks. Any type of outdoor recreation we're going to try and bring into the park Astro Tourism. Though I want to say, when you think about the age of the Bureau, it's a fairly new recreation but they're definitely seeing it as something to provide for our patrons and visitors In this area specifically. I mean, you go down to any of the restaurants at Catternsport, gilton and Mention Cherry Springs and you'll hear people say that, hey, that saved us. Astro Tourism has saved us. This area in particular was really geared more towards the hunting, the fishing, the winter sports. There wasn't too much of the summer type recreation. So, anyways, astro Tourism in this region has really drove an economic growth. We're seeing, like I said, camps popping up down the road. We're seeing motels and hotels that had closed in the late 2000s and early 2000s are now reopening and catering towards the Astro Tourism summer recreation. So it's very interesting.
Scott:I mean, i grew up in this area. I grew up. The population of Potter County was, i want to say, like 1,700. Just around that area. I graduated from a school just over a couple of hills, over a couple of hills from here, graduating class of 61,. When I came back in 2011, population decreased down to about 15,000, 16,000. Graduating classes sitting around 30, 40. So I mean just Cherry Springs alone. When you think about the attendance, 170,000 over a four or five point period. That's increased. The population of this little county, sometimes maybe 100. One we get. So I mean it's crazy, it's very interesting.
Bill:So since we're all in that, scott, i just want to. I saw this other article out there from Brian Whipkey over at Goleary Two million acres, eight forests, it's all in a Pennsylvania wilds. I can truly say some of my favorite memories are in this neck of the woods up here in Pennsylvania, backpacking down a Westroom Trail in the fall which is an amazing experience in like October, middle October, when everything is orange and you have the sun coming through and backpacking the sadistic black forest trail in a monsoon where you're crossing the one stream like 85 times. There's the forest cathedral or cook forest. I know there's old growth right down the street, a hammer's, the wild area that we visited last time we're up here And that was another fun trip because you have to forward a stream and cross the stream a few times and stuff. So the Pennsylvania wilds extend over 12 counties, make some of the most spectacular hunting, stargazing out really outdoors of all Pennsylvania.
Bill:Ten years ago I would tell people that I'm going to Potter County and they look at me kind of funny. They wouldn't know what the hell Potter County was, but nowadays it's kind of a running joke for me. I have friends We call it the PC Club Philadelphia because one of them is a hunter So he comes up here pretty much every November, every December. We have another one that comes up to Lyman or a cinema honing for the Perseids, and she's always up here every August and checking out that. I find it, folks across the state seem to be aware of Cherry Springs, even if they fumble the word around. Sometimes they call it something else Springs or something Cherry Tree State Park or something like that. So I mean it definitely sounds like it's picking up this Harrisburg having appreciation for Cherry Springs, absolutely.
Scott:Very interesting. One of the big issues we have here at Cherry Springs is, like I said, the attendance. It's almost for the staff here. Cherry Springs popularity is starting to really cause an effect of Cherry Springs and the dark sky, and so the Bureau is actually looking at ways at how we can use other facilities in the Bureau to provide that same stargazing experience. Just this past year we started a data collection project where we're having our conservation volunteers go around to certain desi I won't call it designated sites, but recommended sites, i'll put it that way.
Scott:We're doing sky quality meter readings. We're also doing horizon photography And basically we're creating a baseline for, first, the quality of the sky and then second, the light domes that are surrounding these areas And we're going to use that data to protect it, hopefully reduce it, reduce the light pollution and whatnot, and then also, as this astro tourism expands and gets larger, spreading it out over. I mean we're a conservation agency. We're trying to conserve not only the dark sky but we're also trying to conserve the land here as well, and when you have hundreds of thousands of people on the property, i mean it does wear a tear on property.
Bill:So yeah, i started to have the issues that like major state, like major, like some, some are like Ricketts Glen, a beautiful location, but they have they probably have a lot of management problems there because you have so many people bustlers coming from New York City literally coming in.
Daylon:When you're looking into other areas, are you looking at like the National Forest too?
Scott:No, unfortunately. I mean, the National Forest is not. We're actually basing our, our project off on off of a National Parks project, that collection. They've been doing it for, i want to say, at least a decade or more. So I mean, yeah, we're behind the times here, but we're doing what we can to to catch up. I mean, the Bureau, one of the Bureau's things is we want to provide a great experience for our visitors. So that's just, you know, one of those ways that we can collect data we can protect, conserve the dark sky. So Right.
Daylon:The reason I bring that up is because the Allegheny Forest, the Allegheny National Forest here in Pennsylvania, like you go over to Kinzoo Dam area and you can camp along the water there and it's almost as dark not quite as dark as it is here, but almost Yeah.
Scott:But yeah, you're right. And to the casual stargazer who's really just learning about the dark sky you know a sky quality of, you know, let's say, the upper 20s, you know 20.7 is good enough for them. I mean that's portal. We're talking probably portal four, five area. So yeah, i mean for them that's great. I mean you're real serious, guys are, and astrophotographers are. They're really dark skies here. But I mean, if you're a casual stargazer you don't have to drive all the way to Cherry Springs.
Scott:You know you can go to San Mahoney, you can go to Kettle Creek, you can go to other state parks. You know, talk with the management, talk with your staff, let them know what you're doing. You know, make a request and more than likely they're gonna. They're gonna allow you to do that, just as long as you're communicating, Yeah, what your intent is. So yeah, for.
Daylon:Marine State Park over on the western half of Pennsylvania. There's been a couple of times where I called ahead and said let the Rangers know, hey, i want to get some pictures. You know it's a cool and I'm gonna be in this area of the park and totally fine with it as long as you let them know.
Scott:If you're a hiker, you're a backpacker. You talked about the Quijana, you talked about the Hammersley. I mean there's a great plateau up there, the Twin Sisters, you know that's. That's a. It was an old wildfire, so it has very. It has limited trees, so you got open sky on a horizon, just like Cherry Springs. But you know the they don't have the parking lot, the hiking pass. I mean, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to hike to get there, but if you're an outdoorsy tight and you got light equipment, yeah, why not? Yeah.
Bill:The outdoors here are spectacular. It's actually funny when, when I first met Caitlin, she she's from Vermont and she never knew. She never knew anything of Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia, so she thought Pennsylvania was all like Philadelphia The first time I ever took her up to Colton Point. We got there late, so we got there. We didn't have a chance to actually check out the gorge until the sun went down, and when the sun went down, you know we we had everything set off. So we walked over to the gorge and I'm like you're not gonna be able to see anything down there, but you'll be able to see something up there And you can see the Milky Way extend over the gorge. It's a little bit of, you know, the shadow on the gorge. I was like just wait till tomorrow morning. You know you, actually it's a pretty good state And I showed her. Then we came up here a few times and she fell in love with with this area. All right, next article this one is actually a one hour video and it came to us from PBS Northern night's starry skies begins with Travis Novitsky of the Grand Portage Reservation, connecting the brilliance of the night sky, a feeling I think we've all felt, but something many of us probably have not felt.
Bill:Native American heritage and spirituality, and at least some people saying that this too, according to the video, constellations are a way of having the stars connect the people between the physical world and the spiritual world. The Dakota Lakota tribes recognize the asterism Many of us may call the Big Dipper as the seven star fire nations of the Dakota Lakota people. Dakota people built burial mounds by rivers. This is intended to help the deceased to ascend the river in the sky, or what we traditionally call the Milky Way. The Commonwealth tree, complete with its white cotton, is another celestial corollary acting as a bridge between the earth and the stars. I don't want to ruin this video for you. I highly recommend that you go over to our website, grab the link and watch the video And those burrowing mouths I spoke about.
Bill:Well, they can be used to accurately predict eclipses every 18 and 19 years. Oh, and another spoiler alert a constellation Pegasus is really a moose. I know it all along. I mean, honestly, a box that looks like a freaking horse. I'm not buying them. So is lighting up the night sky under the guise of safety and vanity worth the reason to extinguish cultural night sky heritage? When does the balance tip?
Daylon:I don't think it's worth getting rid of the culture Watching that video. There's a lot of interesting points made in just late. Aside from astronomy, like seeing some historical stuff too, and what they went over in the video is pretty intriguing. Like you said, i'm not going to spoil it for people, so watch it yourself please. But when it comes to the guys of security, we have the technology now where security doesn't mean the lights have to be on. We can put motion sensors up, we can put dimmers and timers. We don't have to leave everything on. So where are the balance tips? I think we've already passed the point where security is the main concern. Now it's implementing the right technology.
Scott:And I would agree. I mean IDA does a great job on educating the public and the bad effects of light pollution. I mean, like you said, i mean with the technology now there's really no excuse. As I was watching this video and I was thinking about this, i got to thinking about the cultural significance of it And we tend to think when we think of the word cultural, we think of history And I think about one of the one monikers that we use here is that 80% of the United States population doesn't see the Milky Way, because where they grow up If you think about someone who was born in New York City and lived their entire life, i mean, they had a light source 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.
Scott:That's their culture. So it kind of bleeds out now into other cultures And I don't want to make it sound like they're forcing that. That's what they know And it's very interesting. That's where it's our job to educate the public and say, hey, dark isn't bad, it's actually. That can be very good And if you take the time to research it, look into it, look at all those studies that suggests that crime doesn't increase with lack of light.
Bill:Some studies even indicate that it's reduced, so yeah, I mean, i think that's an excellent point you make on the culture expanding out, the culture of light expanding out. It really I never thought about it like that. That makes plenty of sense when you see I don't know if people come out here, you know the suburbs, usually they probably tested us out Pittsburgh you go driving around and you'll see people who leave the city and they bring their national, their federal maximum security prison yard with them And they light it up just in case a squirrel decides to steal something off of the back deck. Right Yeah.
Daylon:See that camping just in campgrounds. Oh yeah, absolutely Yeah. Across the road here. That's happened before in times of camp, across the road.
Bill:Yeah, we actually have an article up on kind of campground lighting and I don't want to just point the finger at RVs all the time, but more often not, it is RVs And we go out to raised town, which is a nice big reservoir here in Pennsylvania and it's got great mountain biking and stuff like that And when we go there you know you're kind of forced to be with the RVs and it looks people light up their RV area And we have actually a great article on there to Caitlin wrote this month. If you go out to our to light pollution news showing pictures that we took of our last experience at raised house, quite amazing how many really bright bad lights are everywhere And I got forbid. If anyone's tent camping by these guys because you're not going to get an elsewhere to sleep, might as well bring, like you know, blackout the eye. I call them eyebrows. I don't know what the technical term is for the.
Scott:Don't use cucumbers here. You might get visited by a bear.
Bill:All right. Moving on Staying in the spiritual connection, we have an interesting piece from concurrently news coach podcast from world radio and God's world news and evangelical Christian network light pollution and creation care. I don't know about you guys, but I found Kelsey Reed and Jonathan Bose did a wonderful job objectively explaining the topic of light pollution, mainly in regards to how Christians should view and understand the situation. In this podcast, the hosts utilize what they call the sewer method survey, observing, analysis and response to deconstruct the issue of light pollution from a Christian standpoint. One of the biggest takeaways I found came down to how one should respond, namely love of that neighbor and love of the world, suggesting personal responsibility for installing lighting fixtures that spread light trespass into your neighbor's property. There are a lot of takeaways in this episode, but the main theme appears to be an ecological and spiritual connection to the world that God created.
Daylon:Yeah, i'm not these days religious, but I was brought up religious as a kid And a lot of this stuff that I saw was about conservation of a lot of daytime stuff. Well, in this article, you know why, can't it also include the night? Protect everything that God created? And I like to how they're actually going with the sewer method, where it is a scientific approach to it. Like you know, where are the problems? What is causing the problem?
Bill:Yeah, they deconstruct it in an organized method and they have a methodology And they're using, you know, the Bible has kind of like their prism, And I think the great thing about this piece is that it showed you that all of our activities, all of our actions have have externalities and just have to be cognizant of what your impact is. So I found that pretty interesting. I don't know if you guys have any other thoughts on that one.
Scott:If not, we can just go Yeah, absolutely, i'm a Christian proud to say it Go to church every Sunday. And I mean in the beginning, god created the heaven and the earth. I mean, what did he create? first Created the heaven, and you know Genesis, chapter one, verse 26, talks about how he created man in his likeness. And then he also gave us dominion over everything on the earth, and a lot of people fuss about that word dominion. What does that mean? We talk about rule. I mean, what do we have here at Cherry Springs? We have rules for regulations and we're doing that to protect the resource here, and that's really, i think, you know, one of our things that we should do as Christians is protect what God has given us, and that does include the night sky.
Bill:Yeah, they mentioned exactly that point. You were talking about the dominion piece. What does that actually mean And how does that relate to your effect, especially on light trespasses or your neighborhood, on how you used the tools and gifts that God gave you, and outward to others? And I thought this was a great piece. Oh yeah, absolutely Yeah. So today, okay, moving on to some quick hits, just keeping in a cultural, religious theme, the New Zealand Maori New Year rises this July. The New Year occurs when the Astroism Takari, known in Western societies as Pleiades, rises during the first new moon, and you can learn more about this by the one article in New Zealanders to celebrate Maori New Year in July.
Bill:And returning back to Minnesota for a second, according to Dan Craker of NPR, the DNR to rewrite mining rules to prevent noise and light pollution in boundary waters. I gotta say, after watching that video, i really, really want to go to the boundary waters I know I've been talking with Caitlin about for a couple of years now and I think that just really made us fast track that trip. But key takeaway here being that, among other issues, that Hanuman Institute Department of Natural Resources will actually be writing new guidance regarding noise and light pollution, mining activities in the area to protect not just the obviously they have vital water interests and pure water up there in the boundary waters but also the ecological and natural area of the footprint of the boundary waters. And hey, did you hear? the South Tahoe is beginning to make lights dark sky compliant? Kevin Sheridan of Coloay, with the city, plans to update 214 life fixtures along US 50 and use 200, i'm sorry, 2200 Kelvin LED fixtures, maybe for the quick hits this time around.
Bill:I have stated previously that now is the most innovative time than ever for car headlights and already plans to take this to the next level by installing OLED rear lights complete with different rear lighting signatures to choose from. So LEDs are not just for my laptop, apparently, and a little more. That goes to the article we had a couple months back on the lumens are coming and how we're going to find new and creative uses for all of lighting technology everywhere you look. So I do have one question on these articles, guys. The 2200 Kelvin, is that to amber? I hear a lot on the safety side that when cities go to do a lot of these conversions, one of the items that they notch is saying that hey, you can't make out the identity, the color to t shirt, the color of the car with lighting. I don't necessarily think that's true for high pressure sodium, but it's 2200, getting us back to the low pressure sodium issue, where you actually can't make out the specific characteristics of a perpetrator.
Scott:Well, i think we're going back to previous discussion. A little bit earlier we talked about the technology, about being able to dim. We're able to, you know, centralize the light, certain things.
Bill:I mean, I want to talk about this South?
Scott:was it that town South?
Bill:Sorry, south Tahoe, yeah, south Tahoe.
Scott:You know, I looked at that article and I was like 214 street lights. So I was like I wonder where this is at.
Scott:So you know, looking at, the article and that is across 1.8 miles of road, with the 29 intersections, 218 lights. I mean that's you do the math and cut it in half, because we're talking about one side of the road, that's a hundred and seven lights Every 80, that's one light every 88 feet. That's insane if you think about it, every 88 feet. So the length of that, the familiar that we're sitting behind, I mean that's, that's a lot of lights.
Daylon:That is insane. I don't think that 2200 is too low of a number. The one thing that city planners need to remember when they're implementing the new LEDs is that they can be controlled. So if, for example, there's an event, if they put it in the right technology again, where it controls, they can brighten it up to a different color than during an event and then, after it's over, put it back down to 2200. But for little one-offs where they're trying to look for a car, cameras are getting better these days too, so Canon last year announced one that is better in low light, as it was last year or the year before anyway. Once those make their way into the security space, then maybe the amber lighting won't matter as much, because the cameras will be able to pick it up.
Scott:I'd like to touch on a little bit about. You know they have the technology where, when you're going, when an officer with his lights on is going through an intersection, or will change it green automatically based on the lights on the vehicle, and I mean he can use that same technology to brighten the light in an area. Again, i mean we're using the line of sync, we're not just broadcasting it in every direction, wasting it, you know. So the degree, i mean 2000 is not low enough, is not too low, but with the technology that we have, i mean they can boost it if they need to.
Bill:Do you think we can overcome fears that the perception of it being too low? Do you think that perception people flashbacks of low sodium, because that's what they associate mostly with that color temperature. They have no fathom of this new technology you speak of Dalen that can change this variable. People don't think of lights street, especially street lights like that, right. They think of it as on and bright or dim and useless, right? So how do you bridge that gap? How do you convince someone that, hey, you know what? these aren't the lights of your past. These lights are actually very effective. They're going to do what you want And you can augment the light to make it work. In both the cases you guys are saying I'm going to have to make it work for the situation you need.
Daylon:One thing that's being talked about with Pittsburgh street lights. We just finally got the approval to start to design part of it. So that means they're going to go around and inventory all the lights and start designing on what needs moved around, what needs removed or added and stuff like that. But one of the talks early on was over time, like put them in full brightness and then over time slowly dim them over the course of like five years, 10 years, to where people just gradually get comfortable with the dimming of the lights but keep the controls in place for necessities.
Bill:But aren't the lights going to come in really bright? Why can't they just be set automatically at the brightness they're at now? That'll be jarring for people. That'll be jarring for people to, I mean-.
Daylon:In two ways. In two ways In jarring too bright for the people that obviously don't want it, and it'll make people that don't want the amber feel comfortable. but if they gradually change it along with them to back to orange, and people see life isn't really changing, it's just the lighting's better, then that's the way to approach it.
Bill:We'll watch the Pittsburgh example to see what happens. We'll see what happens. Well, this is a great time to take a little breather. I'd like to thank my guest today, dalyne Burt of Asher Escape and Scott Morgan, the PA DCNR, and the wind. The wind has been doing a great job today.
Bill:As many of you know, everything we've spoken about on the show can be found over at lightpollutionnewscom in the show notes. We actually have a link out there. You can also learn more about the show by going out to Instagram Light pollutionnews. Light pollution news is already taken somehow, i don't know. Can we start on that one? Anyway, you can find us on LinkedIn and Reddit over r slash light pollution news. Be sure to give us a shout out. Wherever you're listening from, we're always excited to hear from you. But I gotta say I'd like to give you one more avenue for listening, checking in with us, and that's over on Spotify. Now, we've been on Spotify since the beginning, but Spotify, the app, is actually great for podcasting And you can partake in new show surveys and questions. It's pretty cool. I really dig what Spotify is out there doing. Definitely, subscribe and sign up to wherever you find your podcasts. Spotify happens to get my vote And I do not get paid by any of these groups or anything on a website, so I just want to make that where this just means saying, hey, i really like what they're doing out there.
Bill:Getting back to the show, we're up here at Cherry Springs State Park and it's always amazing being up here in a working forest of Pennsylvania wilds, you know, it's always great. You know what I saw on Thursday night that I haven't seen much of since I was a kid, and that was fireflies. Around 10pm over here in the field, right by the entranceway, i saw some fireflies out in the field behind the sales tent. This night they're really, really good. And first night on Thursday night I was like maybe a few, maybe some greens, some yellow ones. But this leads me into our ecology related articles. So here's something that affects rural America.
Bill:A new study shows urban lighting disrupts rural insects. Louise Honey of Sierra. This is similar to a study we reported a couple months back. In short, very low, even when astronomers may consider dim, levels of light appear to affect the malform dormancy, thereby confusing the dormancy timing to be later in colder, less sustainable times of the year. Fabiani goes on to point out that insects historically appeared in large, conspicuous groups such as clouds and mosquitoes or midges on a hot summer night, and that simply isn't the case anymore. Insect apocalypse is causing declines in the food web, swallows, fly catchers. Insects also aid plant life by regulating past nutrients. Malts do a ton of pollinating at night Very important creatures.
Bill:Fabiani notes that there are places trying to minimize light's impact on the insect population, namely dark sky communities. One such example comes to us from another article, sustainable Landscapes, sustainable Places Dark Skies Projects, where Lisa Baker of the Welsh Business News and News from Wales describes eight dozen, eight landscape areas that are all working jointly to reduce light pollution with the explicit goal to benefit biodiversity. Got this feels like something of your wheelhouse. We see assaults on insects from all angles, from pesticides, from the habitat availability and now lighting. What's the temperature of the DCNR on light pollution being an actual pollutant?
Scott:Well, yeah, i think that goes back to what I discussed earlier about this project and static collection. Not only that, i mean we're also talking about increasing our, our, our meadows for our pollinators I mean lightning brought up the lightning bugs monitor butterflies. I mean we're, we're willing to do things that are going to help sustain the natural ecosystem And we're doing a big push on on reducing our volume. We used to treat our parks like golf courses And we've learned that. You know they were probably doing more harm than good with that.
Bill:So you know in regards with with light pollution.
Scott:I mean that's part of so we we understand. You know our nighttime insects we had talked about. You know these large groups of insects. You know the safety in numbers, right. So when you start creating this light pollution and you start taking away their, their natural ways of doing things, i think it's it goes into the same thing with with some of these people growing up in in light. I'll look how it's it's changed them as opposed to you know historical cultures, you know I mean we're doing the same thing. It's we're trying to change this energy as well.
Bill:Yeah, the, the culture, the cultural point that you brought up really makes sense If you you look at, i guess I don't want to say the battle of light, but the translation of light between different groups, be it urban, be it rural, whatnot. And you know, in the urban setting there's so much of a push and I always joke that like people are to domesticate, so much of a push. For I guess sterilization, like the whole everything, needs to be very sterile. Your, the living space needs to be sterile, the outside needs to be kind of conformed to sterility. You know you have to have a yard where literally you do have to make it treated with artificial substances to encourage it to stay at maybe an inch off the ground, right, so it's a very sterile life And bringing it back, i know in the Valley Forge National Park they used to be all in the mode and then they started letting it meadow and it becomes in August and September one of the most enchanting and cool places to go now because they cut trails through it and you see everything, see all types of bugs, all like snakes, you see all types of cool creatures in there And it's really a fun time to cut through there And I really hope you guys are the best to get that, to get the meadowing back up here, because it'll be really cool to see.
Scott:Yeah, I mean, one of the things about a cherry springs is they I mean, the recreation occurs at night. Okay, So we have to worry about the safety aspect of it. We actually mow 30 acres out of the 85 acres of the park. Okay, We've reduced that a little bit. I don't know if you're familiar with what this area used to look like pre 2016, before I got here, but we had instituted a pollinator field just to the west of the Cape Ground the rest of Cape Ground on the other side, out here in front of the pavilion. That used to be all the way mowed down to around 44. We're letting that meadow out as well. We're spreading milkweed seed. It's vital to for the Monarch butterfly. I can remember I think it was about 2017. I was. I was walking from the parking lot down to the campground and I'd approached an older couple. They were walking from the campground towards me and we sat and chatted for a little bit. I found out that he was actually a retired forester from Toyota State Forest coming to Cherry Springs to camp.
Scott:We started to walk him back towards the campground and this was right around what the Monarch were making there their way through the area, As we were walking by the pollinator field, an explosion of Monarch butterflies off of that field was like a huge wave. It was most amazing thing I'd ever seen.
Bill:That's really cool.
Scott:I try to repeat it every year. I don't know if it was just by chance that that happened, but ever since then I've made it an effort to come up here and try and witness again, because I didn't have my camera. I would have had my camera, would have been an awesome picture.
Daylon:For the mowing. I mean it makes sense when you were talking about the safety aspect For the more traveled areas like this, like right where we're sitting and the astronomy field and the campground it helps keep the ticks and all that stuff down. But the area on the other side of the Villain, where nobody's going, what's the point of mowing? Plus, you're wasting resources by wasting fuel or if you're using an electric mower, charging the battery up to get them to mow, so it makes sense.
Bill:Yeah, I got a really story to about one of my favorite experiences in the state park here in Pennsylvania. It was down at Little Pine and it was during 2021, right out, cover, right, And I had my dogs still around, So we had this campsite that was like the only dog friendly campsite and it was like essentially just a leftover area by a creek. Everyone else is out there and I'm just we're by this creek down there. I think it was probably like old group camping and the whatever reason. You know how some of the bathrooms have these horrible wallpacks. It was off and it didn't come on until about midnight and you had the Milky Way up top and then you had like a Milky Way on the ground with all these fireflies. It was surreal. I've never seen anything like that in my life. It was so cool.
Scott:Yeah.
Bill:Oh yeah.
Scott:Yeah, kurt Weinholt, that same pollinator field. Kurt Weinholt is a pretty well-known photographer in the area and he was able to capture a picture like that over at across a route 44 in that same pollinator field with the minor butterflies. But yeah, i mean you could see things Wasn't Milky Way, but it was the eastern sky with all the stars and I mean it looked like it blended right into the into the pollinator field. It was amazing, amazing.
Bill:Yeah, it's quite, quite incredible. Let's move on to the research article of the month The total disruption of coral broadcast spawning associated with artificial light at night from nature communications. I don't think there's an easy way to say that, but hey, it's the 21st century and coral gets no relief. In contrast to a prior study, breakdown in spawning synchronizing is found to light pollution and not solely water temperature appears to trigger early spawning and coral. And the study has found that corals may be spawning one to three days closer to default moon in coastal areas with artificial light at night. Essentially, alan disrupts the timing reproduction, further reducing the probability of fertilization and survival.
Bill:It surmises that artificial light at night may confuse coral by mimicking the luminance of the full moon. So, to put another terms, absent of light pollution, coral spawn based on cues from moonlight. With the presence of artificial light at night, there is a disconnect that will throw off the timing, the spawning synchronization between corals, thereby impacting coral reproduction. The study appears to be the first step to better understanding Alan's role in coral reproduction. It recognizes the further research is needed to directly parse out the cause and effect of Alan, especially as it pertains to spawning timetables, and suggests greater understanding is needed to understand every reproduction and viability of reproduction under Alan. So that's another piece to the puzzle that comes out again. Light Plays an impact for ecology, or so it appears to from a scientific standpoint.
Scott:So yeah, i mean reading that article, sit and you think about how nature reacts to its environment. You think about How old Inmate lighting is. I mean man-made light and we're talking late 1800s, early 1900s. It started really expanding in the 1920s and 1930s. It's a very young industry when you think about Nature and how long it's been doing its thing. So I mean, like lighting has drastic effects on on Every living organisms natural way of doing things that it has done. You know evolution wise. I mean you start thinking about how they, they, they do things. You know That has to have an effect and it does yeah, it shows.
Bill:You know, we were seeing back to back to back to back studies on how lighting Changes behaviors, changes patterns, sometimes in good ways for well, sometimes, i should say good ways, sometimes in beneficial ways for certain Species and sometimes, especially for moths and other insects, very negative ways and at the end of the day, when You know there's gonna be a point where we might see some stresses come out of our massive assault on the night. So let's wrap up some more quick hits here. Gotta love this very cool news out of Choffee County, colorado. Vicki Genfin of guitar player magazine fame, formed to help generate buzz around the friends of Brown's Canyon's Work to ascertain a dark sky park certification. Genfin plans to compile a new album inspired and recorded in national monument including Brown's Canyon. A New housing development in Rennington, england, has residents fuming. They fear new development, which initially planned to install five street lights, will ruin the rustic character and dark skies of Rennington, a Village that sits in the northeast of England. Purse Sarah Darling in an article. The number of street lights Collectively deny all residents a dark sky for which Northumberland is renowned. However, some regulatory entanglements may see the street lights installed much to disagree on many of the residents.
Bill:Phd candidate Emma Loudon once other astrophysicists to cross pollinate with the space industry. Loudon presents her case via a blog article in astrobytes. We all know that the space economy is just warming up. Among her justification, skill and scientific interest alignment seem to be a no-brainer crossover. One thing extra planet Emma didn't discuss was the impact the satellites on earth-based astronomy. Loudon gives the impression that astronomers do not natively interface outside their discipline, which, if true, looks to be the root cause of some of the low earth orbit business proposals We've been seeing as of late and following this up and finishing this up here.
Bill:Have you ever heard of a moon bow? This is actually pretty cool. There are only a handful of places in the world where you can see these, those being Victoria Falls, the sky of Isle Parts of Hawaii and I bet you would have never guessed freaking Kentucky. Moonbows, for much the same rate as a rainbow, just feign or due to the moonbows, reflective light moonbows only occur three days around a full moon and due to the spain is a camera is Necessary in order to actually extract out the full saturation. So there you have it, dale. In your next trip, make it a mission to a couple in Falls State Resort Park in Kentucky.
Daylon:Yeah, you know, maybe when I go down there to hike some of the state, I'll make a point to stop by.
Bill:All right, let's take another breather right here. First off, thank you to those of you at home who help us keep the light shiny only where it's needed, as a reminder, for only the price of a large coffee can help us cover things like server costs, production costs, editing costs. And if you're looking for more information on any of our shows, feel free to stop by. Light pollution news comm. Say hello to Kailin over at Instagram. Light up loose dot news. She really likes it when you do that. Oh, and of course, we have a reddit Or slash light pollution news and we have a LinkedIn. Just search light pollution news where, above all, we're looking at you. Yes, you're home to join the conversation. There's no easier quick answer light pollution. But it helps when we all have this conversation. It helps us grow the influence and get to a finer meeting place to understand the issue.
Bill:We're interested in your thoughts, ideas, commenter in any of our shows. You participate in a poll for each show via Spotify Or you can join us over LinkedIn or where we regularly prompt that you want. Any of the questions regarding the article. Say where we really have show Conversation prompts. But before we go any further, i want to give a big shout out to my guest Dalyne Burke, ash escape and Scott Morgan of DCNR. Gentlemen, what's new with you guys? a new projects, a new things on your end.
Daylon:Well, just following online with our first topic with Astro tourism, any of you go into your first dark sky spot or first star party. Check out my last two videos and the one that's I'm making now for this. It's all geared towards your first time at a star party, so you definitely want to check those out because there's some great tips in those videos and you will be prepared and have a great time.
Bill:That is very much needed. That's great resource right there. So how do we get a QR code over there by the gate?
Scott:I guess I can speak to this You have to submit your proposal through the State Park managers. No, oh Yeah, you're probably aware not, though, i wouldn't say, most of your audience is aware But I mean, cherry Springs is gonna be going through some major renovations and upgrades here, which is which is great. It definitely needs it. Visitor flow has always been an issue here at cherry Springs, and trying to Reduce some of the visitor conflict that we have here. We know that this is a special place. There are some people that are very passionate about their recreation here and we have some first timers. I mean this, this goes great with. That was your video there for star party but also I mean the first time visit to cherry Springs.
Scott:So I mean understanding how it's. You know the park is set up. You know We get a lot of people who call the State Park and ask questions about the, and, and some, you can tell, have not done any Research at all, and it's always good if you're gonna go into a dark sky place, whether it be cherry Springs or anywhere else, do your research, get online, look into it. I mean we provide maps. We provide a lot of text about cherry Springs as well. But going back to the project, i mean, yeah, so that's gonna hopefully reduce some of the issues We do have here at a cherry Springs. It's gonna definitely reduce that visitor conflict that we have. So and and reduce. I don't want to. Yes, it's like pollution. I mean people come and go at night with their vehicles.
Bill:We got the headlights with the ultra bright LED headlights that can light up the tree. But I don't know how far that field, the end of the field, is. But right, you can see the leaves shimmering perfectly.
Scott:Yeah, yeah. So we're trying to, you know, redirect traffic So we reduce that and really protect us of this area of cherry Springs.
Daylon:And you mentioned doing the research. As somebody who puts out videos for people doing the research, i can't stress it enough. And when it comes to going to the dark sky spots, i mean this is very different than Death Valley, so you definitely want to make sure that you do research in the area too, so you know what you're getting into.
Scott:Yeah, absolutely.
Bill:Yeah, and it's. It's easy to to pass by up here, like it's easy to not really have a good sense of the size of the space Right when you talk to it. You crack me up, scott, when you're talking about like literally no one's done a research, as someone Who's worked so A part owner of a brewery and one of the the things that we were building was a venue in space And then we switched over to some other facilities, and one of the things that you learn real fast is that people Do not do research. That's not a question of if they do research, they do not do research. So hopefully maybe you guys can get like a little chat to you between like a AI bot out there that they can just talk to Instead of talking to you guys.
Scott:It's funny. You know being down. So if you're you're not familiar with state parks in this area, i actually manage four state parks in Potter County. We have one administrative office that Administrates these four parks. Here We have two telephones that I mean we're. We sometimes can have, i say, two Telephones that the public has access to, but I can pull a line in from my office. My EES, my educator, can pull, pull a line in so we could have like four people talking on the phone about cherry springs and still getting voicemails. It's crazy sometimes.
Daylon:So I'm trying to help online friends.
Bill:You know, the best question for you in the form All right, that's how well we wrap this guy off, right, we're in the final piece of the show here. Folks, thank you for staying this long ahead. Let's go through our favorite part and we're looking some technology, and then we're gonna look at our usual policy segment. But technology here is really cool. So, moving on to this, this next article comes to us from Martin Greenacre, of the connection on.
Bill:French towns Introduced smart street lights which locals can turn on. Now This is really interesting. In France, energy conservation has led municipalities to turn off street lights at night. Many folks express feelings around insecurity when the constant burning of the streetlight is dimmed. So to remedy the feeling of safety and the town's needs to save money, olivier Bozzetto devised a compromise allowing individual users to activate streetlights for 15 minutes at a time, based on a GPS location. All the user needs to do is go to a website and switch on several lights at a time. Is this a path that should be emulated? Are you guys either seeing any problems with this? Is this a good thing? I'm curious. I'm curious to have any feedback. What about this?
Daylon:I can definitely see cases where it could be abused. People just leave the lights on constantly, But for the most part, I think after people get comfortable with it they will just only turn it on when they need it. The one that's kind of implemented in general is the EMS stuff that I was talking about earlier, where if there's something happening then dispatchers can deal with the lights as EMS rolls up. So I don't know, given the control to the neighborhood, we'd have to see how it goes in this one first.
Bill:Well, it's for 15 minutes, right? You'd have to sit there either. Create a bot that can do it for you.
Scott:That's what I was thinking. You know, somebody is going to create that app that automatically does it, and hopefully this isn't like Windows-based, because we're going to have all kinds of hackers trying to hack this.
Bill:So yeah, I can also see someone sitting in their room somewhere in San Francisco or something just hitting the button.
Scott:Somebody doing Morse code for the International Space Station?
Daylon:That, or if you grew up in the time of when you get home. You come home when the street lights come on. Somebody turns it on early.
Bill:They just step home fast. It is an interesting approach, right? I think that's to your point. When you guys are talking about having a more responsive lighting system. That's kind of getting us there. It's a very amateur approach, but it's filling a need. It's kind of blending both sides.
Daylon:With everything related to the technology behind the lighting. I mean, this is one step in the research, So I see it as a good move, but, like I said, I see places where there can be problems. But we have to see what the research shows.
Scott:I mean going back to what you had discussed earlier about dimming it over time. I like that approach because really what we need to do is retrain our brain, reeducate the masses. They're not going to realize a difference of 10, 15 Kelvin or alums. Let's say that over time I mean you continually do that. They're going to get used to it after a while, i think.
Bill:Well, we shall see. This leads us right into a great talk now on Western Washington University The saying goodbye to ugly decorative lighting and hello practical, ecological, friendly lighting. Wwu used to have Blooming Amber Street lights lighting its walkways. No more. Whereas before, lights shot out aimlessly, the new top down LED fixtures angle and aim the light directly where it's needed, all over ways in the past. The lights will use a warmer temperatures, which I was unable to ascertain what the actual temperature number was, but this stated to have warmer temperatures. The fixtures are listed as being dark sky compliant And the administration appears to be valuing lighting change over for obviously long term costs, but also on how it impacts the night sky and ecology.
Bill:This story leads us to the next one, but before we go to that, let's review what's actually happening here. Western Washington University recognized it was time to convert to LEDs instead of doing what many communities did and that was to enter into a first and brightest contract. They saw an opportunity to reimagine lighting that was both sustainable and suited to perceive needs of student body. I say perceive because oftentimes the issue of light, street lights, creates a polarized debate where the middle is taken hostage and you have people who want to maximize street lights and then people who are going to fight to the death to not have them there. So before I open this one up to you guys, i want to roll this into our freight of a dark piece right here, a piece from Waroni, the student news source, discussing the goings on of Australian National University The light at the end of the tunnel doesn't work. Investigating ANU's street lighting. This piece, written by a student at the Australian National University, it all shades what happens when we let our fear run wild. Studying everything on 2019 University of Chicago crime lab study. You know the one reducing crime through environmental design. Evidence from a randomized experiment of street lighting in New York City. The solution to all crimes must be like even daytime ones. Now, clearly, the situation at ANU is not working for the students, especially folks arriving home late, say 9, 10 or 11 at night.
Bill:One student raised a concern after walking down a modest of the street. I can make out a person's shape from the distance, but I cannot distinguish their features, like clothes, face or even if they're carrying something, until I get close to them. One of the routes uses motion sensing lights, which you all. Their fear would lead the students to taking longer routes back, as they evidently did not know that the shaded street utilized motion sensing lights There by they wouldn't go down the street because it was dark and then, when they went down, the lights would come on. But they didn't know that Another piece of security was, of course, the main theme correlating lighting as the sole and unequivocal prevention of crime and fear on campus.
Bill:One student claimed to never see security patrols in her walk. The school does have 24 seven escort service to help students and assist students who feel threatened or are jebrie. Now, this is written by a student and I'm presuming and I hope to God she has never experienced anything to the level of what she insinuates regularly happens nightly without light. However, maybe we can take a step back from the ledge here. Even though vocal proponents for more lighting like to shout far and wide, a survey among students at Western Washington University indicated that lighting, while first and foremost on the students mind, wasn't the universe. It wasn't the unanimous driver of insecurity. Western Washington was able to address student concerns and protect the ecology, night sky and environment. Wouldn't that be a workable solution for ANU? would that pacify even an excited and fearful student journalist?
Scott:Yeah, i think it would. I mean we have to get to the crux to the issue, i think, and obviously they're having dialogue with these students as well. She had talked about students not using the walkway because they didn't realize that it was automatic lighting, which is funny nowadays. I mean, you know, it gets one everything right away and automatic, so I mean just a little, here we go again.
Scott:Research on their part, finding out about that. So and again, safety in numbers. I mean, if you'd have that type of fear, maybe point out as a group you know there's different ways around that issue.
Bill:Dale, I know you have something to say. Yeah, it's a couple things.
Daylon:So the first question would be when the students are going through their orientation, why didn't anybody tell them about the lights? You know? I think that that would be something pretty prominent, you know, for student safety.
Bill:I mean, you could also spin it, as a energy saver is a. You know, i've always thought that motion sensing lights is the perfect answer to everything, because it fits all the bills like. You have light when you need it. I don't really care necessarily how bright it is, unless you're walking the path outstop and I'm live right next door. Right, You know, it's one of those things where it's a responsive to the needs of the community, right there, toal right Right.
Daylon:Yeah, and what for the quote about, or the I'm paraphrasing, about the not being able to distinguish anybody, even here, looking around the field? I mean, there are people that I can't tell, you know, if they have a beard or they're wearing glasses because they're too far away. So during the daytime, you know, some people still can't distinguish features. So I don't see that as like a huge valid argument. But then again, for security cameras, like we were talking about earlier, if there's an incident, then the cameras need to be able to pick it up, but their cameras are better than our eyes.
Bill:Well, i want to ask you on that The distinguishing features thing, which I understand for criminal investigation and you know, when we have to figure out what happened in a situation, unfortunate situation, i get all of that. But we had an article in here a couple months back that the sole idea of safety was based on durability, to actually make out the person's features. To me that makes no sense. I was, i was attacked at 10 am on the Saturday in a very popular part of Philadelphia, where it's very popular. On 10 am on the Saturday. I made out the person's features. That did not make me feel safe. When he's coming at me with a baseball bat.
Bill:So I don't, i definitely do not understand how you can correlate facial features and person's features with safety. To me, that's that's again that's a variable You can. It might be helpful for discerning any issue. But I'll be honest again, like when I was attacked, i I can't make out much of that situation because you're not thinking right. You're kind of reacting and trying to trying to figure out. How the hell do I get myself out of this?
Daylon:situation without getting killed, and part of that is you were in the mindset of everything happened so fast, which, in adrenaline inducing situations, can blur the vision and blur your remembrance of details.
Scott:Yeah. Yeah, i agree with you. I mean. A lot of different things go through my mind about. What do they say about witnesses? You know stories change. Sometimes all the facts aren't gathered. I'm curious.
Bill:Yeah, the facts change. People's memory changes. Right, again, i can speak to this. When I had that situation, it took me I didn't know if what I was being told was someone skewing my memory, right, like I couldn't recall specifically what the, the actual features of the person were And someone's like, well, it was like this And that you know, they forced you to like identify like a race and stuff. I'm like I honestly could tell you any of this And I didn't mean to cut you off there, scott, but I and I don't really want to necessarily go down the whole. You know divisibility of a person, but I do think it's a really flawed idea to say that just because you can see someone, you're safe. Yeah, i may make you feel comfortable, i guess, but if they have a gun, you're not going to feel safe. If they're walking to you with a gun.
Scott:I hate to say this, but I mean, i hope we're not stereotyping as they're walking toward us. You know what I'm? I'm I'm getting at here.
Bill:That's what I got from this article. Yeah, that's the number. One piece I got from this article is that it felt like you're trying to lop in certain types of people, yeah Right, and I think going down that road is a really bad road. You know, there's no certain type of person that's going to. You know, come out and get you. Yeah, it's all kinds of people that do it. It doesn't see any. There's no boundaries.
Scott:I wonder if if, like like pollution activists are high on their list.
Daylon:Yeah, i don't. I don't know what it is that the correlation of nighttime equals bad people. It's not always the case. I mean just the people here, amazing people. Even in going to the city you go to a concert at night the people around you are usually amazing because you're all there for the same thing. And if we want to go back to like a daytime activity, the hiking community is amazing. Sure, there are bad apples in each community, but that doesn't automatically assume that they're all bad apples.
Bill:Yeah, well, let's go back to the piece real fast on this, Because I do think we kind of went. I took us down a thousand crazy roads there, so I want to get us back on the P Street here. Western Washington University was able to implement a program that appears to work for everyone, And again you seem to have the loudest voices on the sides, that kind of scream and make the biggest stink about things that can be solved in the middle. Is Western Washington University's model the way you want to approach it, Or is there a better model to approach some of the concerns And they're very real concerns. I'm not saying I don't want to disparage any concerns of safety that students may have. I just wanted to explain my story, which occurred during the daytime real fast But anyway, and I do think that took us off the path. So is it a good path to follow? is that Western Washington University or is there a better path?
Daylon:I think it's a good start. Yeah, With the way that they're doing their fixtures, how they're top down, so nothing's shining up and only pointed where it's needed. And they said that that is a great start.
Scott:And I would agree. I mean just following light pollution principles is a start in the right direction. And then the technology to help with the security-mindedness of individuals that might have that fear. I mean we were talking about coral and I was glad you didn't ask me about any of those. My topic on it, because one of my biggest fears is water. I mean that's why I take showers and not baths. So I mean I understand fear And being able to control it. So I mean any way that if you have a serious discussion and you try and come to a balance, that's going to help both ends of the spectrum.
Bill:Yeah, Yeah, fear is very real, as John mentioned last month. Fear. Some people just have a visceral reaction or just terrified at night And I do fear that this cultural issue that you brought up, where you have people who are light dwellers I say they're not really light dwellers but they like to live in an area that is very lit because that's all they know And you feel comfortable there And I think in some ways, having a dimmer requires it to be. It's a little more challenging for people to have to deal with adversity And that adversity will be a little bit of darkness. But hey, let's wrap this guy up. So, lastly, if you're in search of a natural nighttime experience, you don't have to come to the US or go to Australia, uk or any real solo English speaking country. Check this out.
Bill:India's first Azure Reserve in Ladakh honestly looks to be a really cool experience. I saw this on Instagram a while back from one of the IDA people I follow and the reserve sits in a Chautang Wildlife Sanctuary And it's kind of on the border in the land between China, pakistan and India. That spot The photos in Milky Way are breathtaking. I have to take a look at this And I'm very glad to see. You know we're starting to see people be able to preserve some of these experiences And actually, you know, i'm sure as time goes on, astrotour is going to really grow there. So I want to thank both of you guys. Thank you, daelyn. Thank you, scott. Daelyn, were you able to tell people where to find you? I don't think you mentioned that earlier?
Daylon:No, i didn't. I didn't say that. So you can find me primarily on YouTube. So my channel name is AstroEscape. I do have Twitter and Instagram they're both Astro underscore escape as well, but I'm not the best at posting on those, so YouTube would be the primary spot, or you can go to my website, astroscapecom.
Bill:All right, Scott. Do you have any way if people find you, maybe? or do you want to find you? It's okay if you don't want anyone to find you.
Scott:I'll just be very generic. I mean, if you're interested about Cherry Springs or any of the state parks in Pennsylvania, you know just Google DC and our Delta, charlie, november, romeo, and then the name of the state park. That'll take you to the website. Plenty of information. They have contact numbers there and emails there. You know I'd be remiss here, cherry Springs, we have a friends group, the dark sky fund as well. If you do have a passion for astronomy, protecting the night sky, you know, look at the dark sky fund. And what does the dark sky fund? The dark sky fund basically is a friends group for Cherry Springs that helps with the infrastructure and protecting the dark sky here at Cherry Springs, but not only that educating the public on light pollution as well. They've been a few instances since I've been here. They helped, you know, educate the corporations on their lighting philosophies and educate them that to help with reducing light pollution in the area. So, yeah, excellent.
Bill:Scott. Thank you all for listening. So as, just as a reminder, light pollution news comes out once a month and next month we will be on a little delay, but typically you'll see new episodes hit the feed the first Monday of each month. Learn more about this show by heading over to light pollution newscom. Definitely subscribe to light pollution news wherever you listen to your podcast and bonus, if you're on Spotify, say hi by voting in our monthly poll. You can find us over on Instagram, at light pollution dot news, on Reddit or slash light pollution news and over LinkedIn. Thank you once more. I'm your host, bill McGinney. Your LPN is in the can.