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Last Episode of 2023! Host Bill McGeeney is joined by 2023 Dark Sky Int'l Rising Star Award Recipient, Bonnie Peng, photographer of the new book, Spirits Dancing, Travis Novitsky, and Dark Skies Initiative Coordinator for the McDonald Observatory, Stephen Hummel.
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What did you think of this Episode? Text Us!
Last Episode of 2023! Host Bill McGeeney is joined by 2023 Dark Sky Int'l Rising Star Award Recipient, Bonnie Peng, photographer of the new book, Spirits Dancing, Travis Novitsky, and Dark Skies Initiative Coordinator for the McDonald Observatory, Stephen Hummel.
See Full Show Notes, Lighting Tips and more at LightPollutionNews.com. Like this episode, share it with a friend!
Bill's Picks:
Like what we're doing? For the cost of coffee, you can become a Monthly Supporter? Your assistance will help cover server and production costs.
Hello, thank you for checking out today's show Real quick. I do have one correction before we start. I mentioned the documentary Northern Nights, starry Skies and I incorrectly mentioned it as a PBS production. I just wanted to set the record straight real fast. The Northern Nights, starry Skies production is actually of PBS North in Duluth, minnesota, and Hamline University Center for Global Environmental Education in St Paul, minnesota. Thank you and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:Light Pollution News December 2023 VIP session. Under the bridge. We finish out 2023 with a great panel folks. Youth advocate Bonnie Pang returns. Travis Novitsky of the Grand Portage Ashinaabe Nation joins us for a vibrant discussion Asking is light pollution really a pollutant?
Speaker 1:What about the mental health effects of dislodged circadian rhythms? And how about this? We're seeing the rise of drone shows. It's time for another Light Pollution News. There's much to talk about this episode, the last one of 2023. All this and way more coming right up.
Speaker 1:Welcome to another Light Pollution News. Friends, the last published show of 2023. Can you believe that? I'm your host, bill McGeehaney, bringing you all of the news in of and around the topic of light pollution? For those of you not familiar with light pollution news, all the transcripts and articles from this show can be found over at light pollution news dot com. This month I am joined by a great panel here. Many shared interests of the disappearing night. I want to welcome two first timers, including Mr Steven Hummel. Now, steven, I first learned of you from the article you forwarded to us back in June. For those of you at home, while forwarding articles may not necessarily get you on a show, I'm never going to say no to this. And, steven, when you forwarded this to me, it was before you had a. I think it was CBS that picked up the story right. It seems as though you did the impossible. In Texas, you had industry actually realize the benefit from responsible, effective outdoor lighting at night. Care to explain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks. I am the Dark Skies Coordinator for McDonald Observatory in Far West Texas. So as part of my job I work with all the government, businesses, parks et cetera out in far western Texas to preserve the night sky. And although we're in a really dark area through a twist of geology and fate, I guess the darkest places in Texas border is one of the brightest areas in Texas, which is the Permian base and oil field, which, per capita, is one of the brightest or most light polluted places on planet Earth.
Speaker 2:So no one lives there, but it's as bright as the city's guy and that's mostly from workplace floodlights, oil and gas rigs, all the support infrastructure. So I work with some. I work with not just companies but trade organizations and other nonprofits on coming up with lighting solutions that benefit them, preserve workplace safety and preserve the night sky. So it's an uphill battle. There are millions of lights out there and I get them one at a time. But we're working with several major operators on rolling out better lighting and it's already having some impact and we have a long way to go, but we're cleaning it up one light at a time.
Speaker 1:Did you find when those stories hit the because they hit the national media. When those stories hit the media, did you find that there were some businesses around here that wanted to go to you to maybe look at how they impact the environment or how they impact the area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I didn't see much after the CBS segment which was back in the summer, and I think that's mostly just due to audience for a really rural area and most people just look at local news. So I found that our local papers which maybe have a re-do ship of G1000, gets me to the audience I need faster than the big news organizations. So, yeah, it's interesting. So, yeah, I did get people reaching out to me, but most of the people who reached out to me were live far away and so I think I didn't have a lot of capacity to help them as I can for people who live around here.
Speaker 1:Well, talk about far away, Mr Travis Navitski. You live on the other end of the country up in Minnesota. And, Travis, welcome to the show. Very excited to have you on. I remember watching the Northern Knights Starry skies, our long documentary that PBS made. I was blown away, One of my favorite documentaries I saw this year especially. There's many that came out this year pertaining to the night sky, but this one it weaved together Native American culture so well with the natural environment and I loved the story it told. How was it? How did? How did this show come?
Speaker 3:about. First, I'd just like to introduce myself in my native language Bonjour, travis and Dijne Kaz, makwa and Duda, which means hi. My name's Travis, I am Bear Clan and I come from from Grand Portage, and Grand Portage is at the very northeast tip of Minnesota, which is a very, very remote area, like areas of Texas. I visited Big Bend and I would say that that area is pretty comparable to where I live. There's not a lot of people and there's a lot of great dark skies, and Grand Portage is an Indian reservation. So I am a tribal member here and I've been into photography for 25 years plus and because I grew up in this area with such dark skies, I've, as long as I can remember, I've been a fan, I've been a lover of the dark skies. My dad was into photography when I was little and my mom said, even at a very young age, when I was about maybe five years old, he would go out to shoot and I always wanted to go with him and I don't really remember that, but I think it must have helped instill an appreciation for it and just by nature living here of course have an appreciation for it.
Speaker 3:But Northern Night, starry skies, it came about because I had been, you know, probably started dabbling in night sky photography around the year 2000,.
Speaker 3:I think early 2000s, and that's kind of when digital cameras, at least the ones I had, started to really become capable of capturing the night sky in any sort of decent way.
Speaker 3:And from there it's just expanded and because I think, largely because of my access to good dark skies and my passion for photographing them, started to become really known for it in the region and throughout Minnesota and kind of the Midwest and beyond really. So a few years ago a couple of guys, john Shepherd and Tracy Frieden from Camlin University Center for Global Environmental Education, approached me and wanted to interview me and record a presentation I was doing for the Grand Ray Minnesota, cook County Dark Sky Festival and my presentation was largely based on dark skies and they got excited about it and wanted to do more and so we started talking about a film and that culminated in the release of Northern Night. Starry Sky is November of last year and it's had really good response. It's been in a couple of film festivals and has done well and, as you mentioned, it seems like there's a lot of interest in it, you know, nationwide, even overseas, and I had one group reach out to me from Spain that wanted to Arab for their local dark sky group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it tells a story so well and they engage us people in a night sky, whereas so often I see and this is no knock on you, steven, because I do the same thing so often I see is that we engage people in the night sky based on from a scientific or an astronomical perspective, but the rich storytelling.
Speaker 1:everyone can connect with those stories and they can understand them and learning about, especially having the opportunity to learn about a different culture and understand what these stories mean to the culture, and then you realize that you can actually see these stories play out every night, and it's that, that's what what I loved about that video. That was such a great piece.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks, I appreciate that and I agree it's it's important to have the science, of course, but you know to to help relate it for people. It's you got to kind of make it a personal connection to to really deepen that sense of appreciation and understanding. I think.
Speaker 1:We have one last person on the show. Not least, not at all. We have one of my favorite guests that we've ever had on Leipoli News and the recipient of the 2023 dark sky rising star award, youth advocate, Ms Bonnie Pang. Welcome back.
Speaker 4:You know, bill, joining you will always be my pleasure, but you know, since you brought in my award, I guess it's your pleasure this time. But I really haven't gotten the chance to debrief like wow, I won an award. You know, I just had to just like have that knowledge is sitting there in the back of my head and I haven't really thought about it, to be honest. But yeah, it's really cool and yeah, I don't know, feels weird.
Speaker 1:How have you been? We haven't had you on since, I think, sometime in the spring right.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, yeah, it's been a while.
Speaker 1:So how's life been? How's your senior year?
Speaker 4:Right, senior year. It's just so stressful, like right now it's the prime time of applying to colleges, and like doing the financial aid stuff, so like I'm bothering my mom, she's getting bothered by me. It's like crazy. And when I'm going to my counselors every day and just like complaining like I don't know how to fill this out, it's just, it's crazy. And like, plus, I have to keep up with my schoolwork and like my sports and stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully it's season passes and I'll just be in college by the time I know.
Speaker 1:Well, next year. So just give it a year. You'll be there and you'll be more busy. So just wait for that.
Speaker 4:Don't tell me that. But yeah, I'll make sure my new fame won't steal your spotlight today.
Speaker 1:Oh no, you're feel, please, you're welcome to it. Thanks, phil. Well, let's, let's start things up. Shall we so real fast this week and we're recording the weekend of F1 over in Vegas. I just found this article to be kind of funny. I know we've spoken about the sphere a lot.
Speaker 4:I actually wrote about the sphere and one of my colleges is. I wrote about, like how we first talked about a light pollution news and how I became so interested in it and how that really like sparked my like journey to actually become an advocate for like all the other lightings out there.
Speaker 1:Oh, so good things have come from the sphere. Look at that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, did you know that the F1 banned the sphere from using three different colors during the race because the trackside signage is in? I guess they have specific colors they use. So the sphere couldn't display red, yellow or blue, and I don't know if that's like a solid or if it had to be skewed to like I don't know how you, you don't. I'm assuming these are just strictly solid colors, because I mean, how do you do anything without red, yellow and blue? But anyway that I found that interesting and F1, is it?
Speaker 4:F1?.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yep, they had a big race over in Vegas this weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a big motorsport fan so when I saw that, that picked my interest kind of intersection of two things I'm interested in. But yeah, I could definitely see why it might be a problem to have a giant, distracting, multi-colored sphere just at the corner of your vision. And especially if you're driving a car fast, you have limited time to process all the different signals going on. So I can see how that could be a problem. But I think it's a problem not just for F1, but all drivers. One of my first thoughts when I saw that sphere was well, if you're driving along it's really distracting, just like those other electronic billboards that are constantly changing and grabbing your attention. I think it's kind of a hazard just for any driver.
Speaker 1:Stephen, I thought the exact same thing that cracked me up when, when I read that I was like well, so F1 drivers get a pass, but everyone else gets distracted by this giant eyeball that's watching them drive down the road. Hey, what do we know? Right, how far?
Speaker 3:away. Is it visible?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I, Stephen, I'm a motorsports fan as well as Travis. I am sad to say that I did not actually look at the track layout.
Speaker 2:It's pretty close. I don't. I have a feeling if you're sitting in an F1 car really low to the ground with the stands and everything around you, it's going to be tough to see. But I did see photos and things and you know I did program the little face to watch the cars go around. It's very close. It's maybe half a mile, I don't know something like that. But definitely if you're in the stands it's extremely invisible.
Speaker 1:It would turn out to be a good race. There's that, even if it's a garbage time race right? The biggest news we had this month so the biggest news we had this month came from a new publication of the philosophical transactions of the Royal Society B, which featured a whole issue dedicated to light pollution's impact on ecology. This is the second light pollution theme science journal of 2023. If you recall, we had the science magazine issue that focused on light pollution way back in July At least that's when I got it. I think that's July is when it came out. So my question, you guys and this is what the articles, the very first article prefaced with is light pollution a pollutant or simply a nuisance?
Speaker 4:I definitely think it's a pollutant, but I guess I can understand how, in the scheme of all the world conflicts, that it might not be the most striking issue. But I think finding a balance between addressing the negative effects of light pollution and meeting the practical needs of society is a challenge that requires more consideration and maybe the implement of responsible lighting practices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was struck by that article and of all the dozen or so articles in that issue, that one I grabbed my attention more because it's an issue I deal with every day, because how I define and how I talk about light pollution changes a lot based on who I'm talking to and who my audience is and what I know they're going to be sympathetic to or not.
Speaker 2:So I work with the oil and gas industry a lot and even just the word pollution can make people shut doors and you have to be very careful about the messaging you use. So I always come at it from a safety perspective first and talk about using light well to create safe environments, et cetera, et cetera, not wasting light. So when I say light pollution in that context I'm using the definition that the authors don't like, which is it's a light that is wasted, whereas the case they're making is it's all light can behave as a pollutant, which is true. But if that's the first thing you say, people are going to get a little defensive and you have to think very carefully. So it's one of those cases where I definitely try to soften the message, to just let them at least hear my case out, because if I just go by the definition they advocate, for I would not get anywhere.
Speaker 1:Travis, I want to hear from you on this one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely think it's more than a nuisance and working on the documentary I learned a lot about how it affects, of course, circadian rhythms and animal migration. So I don't know if there's a word in between pollutant and nuisance, because I get what Steven's saying too, like you have to be careful with the messaging and kind of soften it a little bit for a lot of audiences. But the fact that animal migrations get affected, and even us humans, if we have bright lights outside of our bedroom windows at night, it affects our quality of sleep. So that's more than a nuisance to me.
Speaker 2:I will say that I'm continually surprised by even people environmentalists, ecologists, biologists who are completely unaware of pollution as a subject, and they're the people who I really think who should know this. I've heard many biologists even say oh, life pollution isn't as serious as climate change or as particulates in the air and stuff like that, and I'm constantly having to educate people who work in the field of pollution in general. So I think that there is a point in that the way we've talked about life pollution and the past has made it seem less severe than it probably is. It really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of what the authors Barron Fauci were talking about right there, saying that we had initially it was more directed at kind of identifying like murkiness in the sky. Right, it was more from an astronomical perspective. People would say the phrase is like useful life versus polluting light. We would have something like inappropriate or excessive light which kind of makes it feel like, well, we're not talking about the actual light itself, right, we're kind of talking about a byproduct of what we deem the light to be, whereby the authors came right out and said you know, it's a form of energy, it's produced by human activity, it alters the natural concentrations already apparent in the environment and causes, as we see, harm to human health, the environment and ecology, as Travis had mentioned before. And so from that standpoint, right, it looks like a pollutant, but then we need to soften this, right? I feel like you always have to apologize for bringing up the topic of light pollution to people, Am I wrong?
Speaker 3:And I noticed too, like with some folks, you know, you bring it up and they go, ah, you know, they just kind of try to brush it off and it's like no, no, this is important, of course, for you know, I spent some time this week listening to your previous two or three episodes and one of the things that really struck me was I don't remember which episode it was, but you had a guest on and they were talking about some folks neighbor with really really bright floodlights in their backyard or something, and the person who was next door didn't want the lights. Of course, you know, doesn't? The lights are unnecessary to be that bright all night long. But how do I, how do I relate to that person? And and the story was told about, I think equating it to like Blasting music all night long would be kind of the same thing.
Speaker 3:You know, it's well, if I had, if I had, a loud party in my backyard and you know you didn't like the music, you would say something to me right, it's, it's the same thing. Like your, your lights are intruding into my space. I don't know what I'm getting at here, really, but it's all good, travis, I well again.
Speaker 1:That goes on to the nuisance side, right yeah, the pollutant side. We have plenty of documentation, plenty of research, especially this year, that came out talking about the pollutant side, and I'll just name some of the ecological ones that came out of the the transactions to be journal and that was Alan was shown to impact soil consistency, affecting the respiration carbon use efficiencies.
Speaker 3:So that soil consistency. Really I was like, wow, that one really caught my eye right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all the way down to the soil right. Artificial light affects invertebrate acting, spiking predation rates when the sky glow was apparent. There's a study on composition of moth communities and a study was found at sky glow decrease moth abundance and species richness. Artificial light plays a role in reducing survival of mussels and barnacle larvae. And Another study, the artificial light was proven to reduce plant biomass by 33% and a similar drop in proportional diversity of plant populations. Of the study, which included grasses, herbs and legumes. I mean that that seems like A pollutant.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like our nightlife in nature is really taking a beating. Like as high schoolers I feel like we're so often caught up in our own world. But these studies really show like the consequences of our bright city lights extend far beyond our surroundings and like maybe it's time we dim those lights of it and let our fellow earthlings have their own party in the dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, travis, you go out to great locations, right, I know you'd like to be outdoors and go out to some great spots and I assume at night is kind of when we we allow animals to kind of live now right In many parts of the us Because they're not going to be able to exist much on daytime. It's love people around and when I nighttime, usually people go inside so you get a lot more activity.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, for sure it's, I think, fairly widely known that Many species, many animals Are more active at night. You know, they're Kind of hunkered down there in a day, and at night is when they hunt, at night is when they maybe travel. So it's, yeah, the more light we have, it really really affects those those things. And, of course, one of the glaring, most, I guess, shocking examples maybe is I can't remember where I saw it recently, but I saw a photograph of the number of birds that were killed in one night by striking a tall Office building in a city, and it was, it was huge, it was hundreds, hundreds of birds just from one night. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 3:Chicago, yeah, and the staffers, staff or something had collected them and kind of laid them all out and I was just like seeing them all laid out like that was very eye-opening. But it, you know, and of course I should mention the cultural side too, of course, right, like, because that's kind of what Books about a little bit the documentaries about, is cultural connection to the sky and you know, the more light pollution we have, the less visible stars we have. The cultural knowledge and that cultural connection Starts to kind of fade as well and, you know, eventually get lost because you just don't. If you can't see the stars anymore as the people you're not talking about them as much you the stories kind of fade. And yeah it's, there's a lot of reasons it's not good.
Speaker 1:There's one of birds, just real fast on birds. So there's probably not an episode Travis that we go through what that doesn't talk about birds? Oh, I'm sure. And artificial light night has been found to actually increase bird metabolism. So birds residing in light polluted areas Burned through an increased amount of lipid energy than they otherwise would, lipids being a primary energy source fueling bird muscles over migratory flight. So an article from genetics also looked at mantis shrimps and found that there's a day night metabolic difference confirming the importance of a dark environment Right to to conserve energy, reduce metabolism. That's the trend of a consistent vocal chorus Identifying ecological impacts from what we do at night, from the lights that we put up at night.
Speaker 2:There's been a such an explosion of of papers lately I mean in the past, really three or four years especially, you know so many new papers coming out on all the different impacts of artificial light at night on wildlife and biology. It's it's almost hard to keep track, but I don't know if there's one In particular I kind of wanted to discuss. I don't know if it's on your list, but there's a recent paper from Travis Longcore, use CLA. Travis Longcore is a big name in the field of artificial light at night in wildlife, but they looked at mountain lions and where they would travel in southern California. And mountain lions are, you know, a top predator. Well, at least now they are in California.
Speaker 2:They there weren't always these two bears too, but you know we don't really often think about Light pollution and the larger species. You know that this the, but it affects them too, and they found that in that study they avoided lit areas. But actually, interestingly enough, that contradicts another study on mountain lions that came out a few years ago in Utah, which found that mountain lions were following the mule deer which they, you know, uh, into lit areas, and the mule deer that they theorized were Attracted to lit areas because they associated that with either safety or, you know, people's gardens and lawns and all you know things to eat in the mountains. In that case, in that study, weren't afraid of the light at all and it kind of almost made the case that it was a false sense of security for the deer. I think it reminds me of what we talked about lighting and crying a lot where you know it just helps that you know that the, the criminal, also, in this case the predators, see what they're doing better.
Speaker 1:You hear stuff from people saying that I'll put a light out to kind of keep the bear away. You know black bears, yeah, and that bears don't care about the light, they're going after your trash can. That's, that's what they care about. And you know to the point that it does impact some areas. It does impact some behaviors and other behaviors. It may or may not right, it's not a uniform. It's. It's not uniform, even even interspecies, like even from an ecological standpoint, like if you talk about maybe the ones in utah, or just a different subset than the ones in california.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they grew up in under very different conditions. Yeah, yeah, it makes me question you know, in 10 years what are we going to unlearn? Or realize was incorrect now, or, you know, realize wasn't as broadly applicable. No, that's just the nature of science, right, we learn more. But right now we have this huge explosion. We're learning a lot and I'm sure 10 years from now we're going to realize Maybe not all of it was what we thought.
Speaker 1:Well, let's finish up the ecology side here, and here's one this I found this really interesting.
Speaker 1:So ecologists and belfair's are working hard to bring back their famous starling murmuration and for those of you at home who aren't aware of what a murmuration actually visually looks like, it's a fantastic show put on by dense flock of, in this case, starlings that generate warmth and kind of share, like you know, feeding information.
Speaker 1:So the starlings could be seen as recent as 2018, but then they installed new led lights all in around under the alber bridge. In recent years, the led lights have actually brightened the bridge so much that starling counts have since dropped to a trickle To help bring those birds back. So ecologists worked to reduce the lights on the bridge, so lights underneath and on the side of bridge were actually removed, and then the lighting on top of the bridge was dimmed and changed to red. They don't have any firm results yet, but they're looking and are hopeful that the starlings will actually return back to the bridge. So that's an interesting little piece of ecological news going on, where they saw a situation. Now they're going to try and see if they can roll back, because it looks like before the leds were there, you had this murmuration going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, like who knew led lights could be such a party pooper for these birds? Like, but honestly cutest to the Ecologists for trying to fix this stuff, like taking down the lighting, just dimming the glow and switching to red vibes, like it's like they're giving the starlings like a VIP section under the bridge and fingers crossed it works and the starlings make a comeback. It's like waiting for your favorite band to drop a new album you know, Think we just found the title of the show right there.
Speaker 1:Great job body. Yeah, I like that description. So the second piece of big news Came in a form of nighttime entertainment, and I'm sure we've all seen these by now and they're actually quite, quite stunning. So it should come as no surprise. Here in north america, as the skies were darker, we start having drone shows take more and more center stages.
Speaker 1:In central park a new drone show Seek to actually mimic the starling murmuration. It's short shows, six minute shows, multiple shows a night. So it's, it's part of a public art trend that new york is looking to foster and grow. In tennessee, at dollywood, dolly partons amusement park, carefully chosen, choreographed drone shows Uh strike a really stunning visual to close out the night. So they have this nice story book ending To every night of dollywood and then, never to be outdone, disney has actually followed patents to create custom drone control puppets and 3d drone displays. Drone shows cost a fraction of the price of disney's nightly fireworks show, and add to that, as anyone with a dog will actually attest, that they impart much less traumatic noise stress on local ecologies.
Speaker 4:So drone shows are coming and they're they're gonna be more popular, especially in that probably 2024 it's like the night sky's turning into this giant canvas for some like seriously cool art and like I've read the one of the articles, like the central park one mimicking starling formations, like that's kind of love, next level poetic. But like let's talk about the elephant in the room, like there's light pollution and I don't know if they're ready to address that. I mean, though, they are cool, but like, still, our cost is it better?
Speaker 2:and at noise pollution too, uh, which which can definitely be just as harmful, even if they're doing drone shows or drone activity in the daytime. It's been known to disturb wildlife.
Speaker 1:Well, steven Is it? Is it better than say fireworks? I feel like drone shows probably better than fireworks.
Speaker 2:That was actually my one of my thoughts when I was reading this is I don't know, but certainly fireworks are loud and bright. I don't know, maybe this is actually a slightly more ecologically friendly alternatives of fireworks, but I'd love to see a study comparing them.
Speaker 1:I know last year there was concern about having these drone shows in new york because of of bird migrations. I'm not sure what altitude birds are flying through new york but you know, with bright cities they go and flock to the cities because there's plenty of feeding there be had. So that's an interesting piece, but you know we'll have to keep an eye on it. But it is something you know, a new trend and, to your point, bonnie, they are really artistic. You know what point does do we, do we value art? I mean, it is something that is visually Appealing and enjoyable to look at definitely like it's.
Speaker 4:They're very mesmerizing shows but like Light pollution is like it's becoming the fine print of our modern entertainment the more Technology advances, I feel like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point, I like that. Well, here's one probably for you. Steven into mystery, or at least wasn't mystery. Maybe it's still wasn't mystery. Check this out.
Speaker 1:Christopher Ganey, writing for sacred space astronomy at the Vatican Observatory, became curious one cloudy night I presume it was a cloudy night, I don't know why, else you'd be looking less report at work. He began to dig through the veers map on light pollution map info, and he looked at an area within the day's drive of his house. For those of you at home who are not aware of when veers stands for is the visible infrared imaging Radiometer suite. Veers is an instrument package placed on top of multiple satellite missions. So if you stroll on over to light pollution map that info, you can actually scroll through the overlays dating all the way back to 2012, which is precisely what grainy did.
Speaker 1:It's a grainy noticed that over the course of a 10-year span, a small part of the Wabash River area in Indiana, illinois, border Grew to a brightness of what he considered a small city. Naturally, grainy became curious, so he made the drive expecting to see some new development or new buildings warehouses, have you but there was nothing there. At night, there's hardly a light there to be seen. So what was it? I know, steven, you know this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's gotta be, it's gotta be flaring, yeah, so there's.
Speaker 1:There's flaring, right Well, the oil wells. They have dirt pits containing natural gas and the flare pits would Irradiate upwards and then it would get caught by veers and spike in density as it let off the night. So it should be noted. Per Grainy's assessment is that the pits were not emitting enough light to actually degrade the night sky. Now, I was always under the impression that flares actually were impactful on the night sky.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this is first. I want to clarify a really big Misunderstanding about those light pollution maps and why this stood out in the first place. Because veers is the, the scientific instrument. You know the package on the several different satellites that Creates these maps. But veers, as you said, it stands for visible infrared Imaging, radiometers feed. It looks at green, red and infrared light, but it is blind to blue light. So when you look at those maps on light pollution map dot info that there's no blue light in there and, as we know, blue light is One of the most important. You know parts of the visible spectrum, so it's missing a big piece of the of. You know the problem. But the other problem with veers is it really over estimates infrared light Sources and can make them on the map look really bad. That's kind of why, like if you look at a map of light pollution, you know the the buckin shale formation up in North Dakota looks brighter than Chicago. It's bright up there, but it's not quite that bright. Uh, it, that's. That's exaggerating it a little bit.
Speaker 2:So locally here in west Texas, flaring is not a big contributor to the light pollution we see and the main way we know that is. But I was actually take a spectrum of the sky glow and every source has its own unique kind of spectral fingerprint so we can tease out what kind of light source is making that sky glow we see. Is it metal halide, a high pressure sodium? Is it an led? You know what kind of color led? Or is it flaring or something else, because these are going to have our own signature?
Speaker 2:So, locally in west Texas, you know it's, it's less than 5 percent of the sky glow we see is from flaring, and the main reason why is, although those flares are bright, the red or amber color doesn't scatter as much in the air. So the the shorter the wavelength, the more blue it is, the more it washes up the sky. That's why the sky is blue. The more red or infrared, the less it scatters. So it goes more directly up to space and it's less visible from the ground, that's not to say doesn't scatter at all. So, yes, flaring does cause some sky glow, but it is much less of an issue then the maps make it seem, and less of an issue than, say, led floodlights. Well, thank you for setting us straight there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. That was going to be my question, because you looked at, you know you mentioned it. You look at the Dakotas and it's like, looks like it's New York City or something, I don't know on that map.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, again, it is very bright in the Dakota, it's very bright out here. I mean it's still like a city sky, but yeah, it's. It can it can skew it. So, actually, the national park service has a different map that isn't up on there on the map, so it's a little bit more of a sky light map. So it's a little bit more of a sky light map. So it's a little bit more of a sky light map. But I trust it much more than it's called the all sky light pollution ratio map and the last full set was in 2018, but it does say it can do account blue light and it does try to correct that sort of In balance with infrared that viewers has.
Speaker 2:So how's that map pieced together? What's the data source? And the National Park Service has a lot that create all-sky images to to carefully measure, you know, light pollution at a given location and using that data helps calibrate and inform the map. So it's not just satellites, it's there's ground proof Established as well to make sure that the you know satellites are are representing the situation right.
Speaker 1:But this next one here, travis, this might be something up your alley. There's an article from the CBC this past month that was talking about losing our access to night sky and essentially is akin to losing the whole repository of human cultures and traditions, and you spoke to this a little bit earlier. The disconnect from night sky traditions due to light pollution impoverishes Our society artistically, from music to visual arts. Writer and amateur astronomer Sheryl Lynn Urig Posit that if an artist never saw the star sky, how would she know how to paint it?
Speaker 3:and interesting, right, right and I, yeah, and that kind of course plays into that statistic of. So was it? 80% of the world's population lives where the, where they will never see the Milky Way. That's just Unbelievable to me. I mean, I I never take it for granted, I that I am very fortunate that I get to see the Milky Way every night if I step out my front or back door. But yeah, I think even Having the access, the night sky sparks a lot of my creativity, and Not being able to see it would definitely impact that for sure. And yeah, how do you no matter what the subject is whether it's the Milky Way or, let's say, a beautiful display of northern lights if you've never seen it yourself with your own eyes? Maybe you've seen photographs of it, but that's not the same how do you turn that into a piece of art? That's a good question. That's an interesting thought process.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this topic really like struck a chord within me and it has me thinking about like how Our connection to the night sky isn't just about the stars, it's like kind of losing a piece of our like shared human experience. And like I totally get that point like how do you even capture the magic of the starry night or the Milky Way if you've never seen one? And, as a high schooler, I feel like our generation Might miss out on something vital if light pollution keeps us from truly experiencing the night sky. And it's not just about like nostalgia, it's about like preserving a source of inspiration and wonder for future artists, scientists, dreamers, and like maybe, maybe we can't package up the night sky, but finding ways to bring it back into our lives seems crucial. And, yeah, thanks for bringing this topic to us, bill.
Speaker 1:I find, travis, I'm just like you. When I go out to the dark sky location, I always feel energized and I always feel happy and and Because there's, your brain is always working under the stars, you're always. You have that creativity spark is just kind of, you know, making its way around your head and, yeah, it feels, it feels right.
Speaker 3:And it's. It's interesting that you mentioned that, being under the night sky, your brain is always working. I think that's true for sure, but it's it's a different when I, when I speak to a group about my photography, a lot big. One of the biggest takeaways I want people to Leave with is, you know that, at least sharing my own experience about it. For me it's a very mindful kind of relaxing, peaceful thing and I think a lot of people can relate to that.
Speaker 3:Like you know, nowadays, with our modern culture and you know cell phones, we're always scrolling on our phones and I know like I can only do that for a minute or two and my eyes go crazy.
Speaker 3:You know, with the scrolling but and just everything you know having to work, you were inundated with ads. We're inundated with lights anytime we go anywhere, of course, anytime the sun goes down and it's it's bright everywhere, even to an extent where I live. But Taking all of that and of course I do work at full-time in addition to doing photography, and I work in public service, I'm for the Minnesota State Park system, so I see a lot of people and that is energizing in its own way, but it's also exhausting. It takes a lot out of you. So when I work a long day and I've seen five 600 people come through the park that I work at, I need to go spend time by myself. The best way to do that is to go out under the stars and just take my camera and take a little time and just sit there and be with everything that's around you and eventually take some pictures. Maybe sometimes I don't even take pictures, but for me, being under that sky is the most grounding, centering component of my life.
Speaker 1:I can relate to that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I want, but I hope that people will come away from one of my presentations with a sense of that and with the sense of the importance of that. Who knows, maybe it's not the night sky for others, but everybody, I think, has something that does that for them. I think, increasingly, with the awareness and with dark sky topics we've got so many areas. There's one tribal dark sky nation now. I believe that's actually been in existence or had got their designation about eight years ago, but so far they're the only tribal nation to have a designation. But there's communities, there's parks that are constantly being added to the list. So as each day goes by there's more awareness of it.
Speaker 3:I think with that, at least in my area, people really want to travel north to see the northern lights. I live about five hours north of Minneapolis, st Paul, but that's within reach for a lot of people. It's a five-hour drive, isn't anything to them? When we live in Minnesota not compared to Texas, of course, but it's a fairly large state and people think nothing of heading up to the North Shore of Lake Superior and driving three to five hours for the big maybe that they'll see northern lights. So it's all very timely right now, with everything that's going on and the interest in it.
Speaker 1:It's very inspirational for those people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know if you guys have all seen the northern lights, but I've seen them a lot and I've been with people who have seen them for the first time. That, I think, is one of the most magical things you'll ever experience, is being with someone who's never seen the Aurora Borealis. Their reaction is just it hits me right here every time. It hits me right in my heart because it brings me right back to when I first was noticing them and reminding me of that.
Speaker 1:I hope to see them someday. I have not seen them yet, so I'm very much looking forward to seeing them. Travis, we're talking about this winter, maybe We'll see.
Speaker 3:We're in solar maximum right now. They say so. The next year or so should yield more opportunities. Then the trend will be going down again to solar minimum.
Speaker 4:I see the northern lights in your zoom background. Did you take that picture?
Speaker 3:I did. Yeah, that's actually the image for the cover of my book that just came out. If I can lean to the side a little bit, you'll see the Milky Way is on one side and the northern lights on the other. It's a northeast Minnesota lake, but if I can throw a little bit of cultural reference in here, yeah, please do For the Dakota people. I learned this through the process of working on the book with Annette Lee, who wrote the text for it. Annette Lee is an astrophysicist. She's the founder of Native Sky Watchers. She is a Dakota ancestry, where I'm Ojibwe. There are some similarities across cultures, but the Dakota really have this. There's a word for it, called capemony. It's a connection between Earth and Sky which is illustrated so well when you have a nice calm lake and you've got the Milky Way up there in the sky and it's reflected almost perfectly below in the water where, if you were to flip that image upside down, you couldn't tell which way is actually up.
Speaker 1:That is a spectacular shot, Travis. I'm always amazed at your photos.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I've jumped around in your site and I really you take some. I hope one day to be as good in a nice guy or photography as you are. This is amazing stuff you do.
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate that. I'm just going to share a real quick passage from the book here, if I can. The very name of the state of Minnesota has been appropriated from the Dakota phrase, minnesota, macoche, which translates as the land where the waters reflect the skies or heavens. This idea of reflection and connection to the sky is a fundamental theme of Dakota cosmology. The word for this twin relationship or pairing of earth and sky is capemony, and this single word contains an entire cosmological philosophy. It's typically translated as as it is above, it is below. That oversimplifies, but it speaks directly to this critical, indigenous-based world view of a mirrored relationship between earth and sky.
Speaker 1:That is great. That is beautiful. Yeah, it really is a beautiful picture. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Travis, I think you do see that. Again, like all of us, we're always learning more. But you see elements of that connection in other cultures around the world too, that this concept of the earth and sky being connected.
Speaker 2:Without a doubt. Speaking of auroras, bill, I'm going to give you some news before it comes out. Actually, I think.
Speaker 1:Oh look, breaking news, breaking news.
Speaker 2:But I've seen the auroras here from Texas. When there's a really big event it's pretty rare, but we can see them low on the horizon. But lately we've been seeing them above McDonald's Observatory almost every week or two from man-made activity, from Starlink. And so let me some explanation is in order. But when a Falcon 9 rocket leaves Cape Canaveral in Florida it comes all the way around the earth and they deploy the Starlink satellites and much has been said about their impact on astronomy and all of that. But when the second stage of the rocket returns to earth, it burns its engine for just a couple of seconds.
Speaker 2:Way up high, at the same altitude, auroras occur. And when that engine burn occurs it creates what we call an ionospheric hole which glows red. And it can glow red for anywhere between 10 to 30 minutes and they're very bright. For a few seconds it's brighter than, say, the ISS it's, but over an area maybe 10 times the area of the moon in the sky you know really hard to. You could definitely see it in a city and then it lingers red and a little bit of green for several minutes.
Speaker 2:So effectively, starlink launches are creating artificial aurora, although only over our particular spot in West Texas, but for us as an observatory it's actually kind of impactful and we're losing science observations to it because it's so bright. Yeah, it's so bright, it is affecting us, so it's pretty for a bit, but it is actually kind of a cause for concern and with more and more rocket launches occurring all the time, this phenomenon is going to be more and more common, probably throughout the world. As these rocket bodies reenter and intentionally sort of deorbit themselves, they cause this effect as well as when they go up to as it was a known phenomenon going up, you know, as the rocket launches from California and Florida occur. Sometimes it happens, but it's now a weekly thing.
Speaker 3:So yeah, wow, wow Stephen is this where I've seen photos of, I think, what you're talking about, where it's probably the light as it's fading, but it just looks like a big gas cloud in the sky. Or is that something else?
Speaker 2:That's similar. Yeah, so usually those photos are when they go up. You know the launch process and, yeah, that can. The big colorful, the really bright part, is the exhaust gases themselves reflecting sunlight, but if it occurs later at night or if you look again later, then it can glow red, as it's basically those gases interacting with the chemical reaction in the upper atmosphere. So yeah, it's related.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've often wondered, because I never see anything like that up where I live. But I've seen a lot of photos and just wondered what it's like in person. How big is it really in the sky, apparent to our eye? How bright is it? And it sounds like it's very impactful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very big and very bright.
Speaker 1:yes, so Inside Hook ran a piece that was discussing light pollution and its impacts, and they cited three sources or three documents, and one of them was the Chicago Alley Lighting Project, which showed that crime actually increased in the areas after a new, brighter alley light was put on, say, transit stations, and a 2015 study that showed improved street lighting didn't affect railway collisions. But this is the one that really kind of got me. I never thought about this, a 2018 article that showed a night vision can atrophy, as it has an apparently 37% of people in the US. If you don't experience a natural night environment, you can actually lose your ability to see at night. Travis to your point you go outside and you have no problem, probably walking around at night.
Speaker 3:No, no, your eyes adjust pretty quick when you don't have artificial lights interfering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wasn't aware of that either. Yeah, if you're out of practice, you're not as good. Is that essentially what they'd say?
Speaker 1:That's right, and this all comes from the article Light Pollution the global scourge we like to ignore, by Josh Sims and Inside Hook. So definitely you guys can check that out. We have all links and everything over at LightPollutionNewscom for this article, for this show. But yeah, I found that interesting.
Speaker 3:I guess it kind of makes sense because in a sense our bodies are evolving to our environment. So if we have less natural darkness, our brains and our eyes are going to equate to well, we don't need to do that anymore.
Speaker 2:That reminds me of an article that came out last month on birds in San Antonio. They found that the birds that grew up in the city had smaller eyes than the ones that grew up outside the same species.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, we've got that on here. That's kind of amazing.
Speaker 3:It's amazing and it's scary too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think we'll grow smaller eyes. Is that your word about?
Speaker 2:Maybe I don't know enough about, but maybe that was my first thought when I read that article is I wonder how humans have changed in response to how we've changed our environment.
Speaker 1:We have a lot more that popped up this month, including some very important health news. But I want to take a quick breather here because we've been really going strong guys. This has been a really excellent conversation, a lot of great information. So, Steven, thank you so much for that information on the All Sky Light Pollution Ratio Map. That's very helpful. And then, travis, definitely you've been instrumental in giving us the how do you say that? Again, the copo, copemony, copenony, okay, copemony.
Speaker 3:It's K-A-P-E-M-N-I, as I understand this.
Speaker 1:This stuff is great and this just shows you a little bit about what I try and do here Light Pollution News. We're about to make it one year. About to make it one year, bonnie. Can you believe that? So Light Pollution News first and foremost is a community and you, listener, you help my job become so much more fulfilling and much easier. Just to hear back from you guys, to see you guys posting up on Instagram or sending emails out. You know, steven, when you sent out that article there, that was excellent. That was so cool of a read to have it right from the source.
Speaker 1:What I initially set out to do Light Pollution News. I wanted to have a helpful resource for a platform that could help people of all different backgrounds, all stripes who, once you, have been approaching this issue for a long time, the ones that have never really thought about it and are curious about it. If Light Pollution News isn't achieving these goals, send me a helpful suggestion. I want to hear it. This is our one year. Look back to see what we've done right, what we've done wrong, so you can send any comments, articles, issues you have with me, to show things you like about. That would be preferable Over at bill at light pollution newscom. And if you feel the show has been a valuable resource, why not support it through monthly subscription plan for prices as low as $3 a month? That's absolutely less than most coffee these days, I can tell you. I live in a city here and coffee is about $350, $325. So it's cheaper than that. You can find that link directly in our show notes. Just open up here, say Apple podcast and you'll be the first link right on there. But that's not your thing, no worries. How about just giving us a rating review? Whatever platform you're using probably Apple and you know we really value your input and your suggestions and and conversations we have with you. So I want to thank all those subscribers who help us offset some of our server costs and all that work that goes into LPN. Fortunately, it does cost a bit each month and we truly appreciate your generosity.
Speaker 1:I came across this interesting article here from the patch. Check this out. Every second Wednesday at one hotel, south Beach, miami the lobby is actually dimmed for a candlelight evening to raise awareness for global brightening. This is Miami. These folks will give 25% of a Dark Sky cocktail back to Dark Sky International. This is Miami. I don't know who's taking a lead on that one, but kudos to them.
Speaker 1:We have another article coming from the Columbia, missouri, and it highlights an event that is probably going to gain some attention, for something folks won't see. Once a month, university of Missouri is founded in their hearts to turn off the lights at the dropping rec center, the Stankowski field. This is being done at the request of volunteers at the University of Missouri Laws Observatory. Previously, the university agreed to turn off lights for two hours each month in 2015 to support the international year of astronomy. Not only does the observatory now offer visitors the celestial sky, but they will also offer rooftop yoga every first Wednesday. So there you go. A little fun thing to have out there. Hey, aaa subscribers.
Speaker 1:The member of Via Magazine actually detailed five principles of light pollution in a very easy to read article. I was kind of shocked by this A great article. They even suggested to folks who wish to needlessly light some outdoor areas to use some in my mind, some undervalued techniques, including reflective tape or maybe even glow in the dark stuff is what I would suggest and to kind of reduce your nighttime impact. And this one, bonnie, this one had me thinking of you as Southern Illinois University, a zoology student named Sarah Deepa is trying to raise awareness of stadium lighting's impact on natural ecology. Sarah is gathering up a thousand signatures via changeorg petition, which you can most easily ascertain through the shows notes or simply by going over to our Reddit page at r slash light pollution news In the Daily Egyptians article student newspaper for SIU.
Speaker 1:The newspaper surveyed some students, of whom the overwhelming majority would be okay with changing the lighting. I want to draw special attention to the terminology used here and, bonnie, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I'm really curious if you can help us out with the angle here. In one instance, quote by Deepa read I think like 50% of the lights are orangey, yellow lights that look outdated, and then half of them are regular lights. And before I give you a floor body, there's also another quote. Obviously, we need to make sure no one's going to rob us in the middle of the night, but there are ways around it, I've learned. So give me a little perspective in the to Deepa. Who's she trying to talk to here?
Speaker 4:I kind of get where I get where Deepa's coming from. When she brought up reflective tape, I feel like that might seem low tech but, like you know, glow in the dark tape too. You got to keep that safe during star parties and now for the whole stadium lighting situation. I think it's awesome that, like Sarah's pushing for change, her phrasing is probably just trying to relate to folks saying like some lads look outdated or regular way is just her way of like, making it like more real, you know, and that bit about like how no one's going to rob us in the middle of the night. It's like a classic, like yeah, we need light, but let's not go overboard. And people of all ages, they're definitely thinking about the balance between safety and keeping things natural. So yeah, go Sarah with those signatures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if you signed to. Yes, she was up in a 900. So I strongly recommend anyone go out there and help her out. Definitely great work on her part. And there's there's a couple others, I guess, for lack of better descriptor like awareness articles.
Speaker 1:First up from Saltwire, a citizen science project called counting stars encourages students to create a cardboard picture frame and count the stars they see through it at night from five different locations. This project, taking place in Nova Scotia's municipalities of Yarmouth, claire and Argyle, hopes to speed up acceptance of light pollution as a serious issue. A pretty article. These communities have been very slow to recognize the impact of artificial light at night. Participants are encouraged to enter their data at Nova Scotia lightcom.
Speaker 1:So check out the campaign. It's pretty interesting. It's something that I think you could run anywhere and it's a little bit of a different take on the globe at night. You're actually framing it in something that is be tangible. So it's it's a box that's very tangible to the user and to that perspective. So I thought that was very interesting. And then we have this other one. On the other end we had Luca Yoyanas, who was a postdocs researcher at rural university and he gets science as a German research center for Geosciences in post-am germany attempted to leverage citizen science to count streetlights in her time for night campaign, where she would have participants go out from all pretty much all fall from September through November to record light sources and track them as they may have changed over time. Two little pieces out there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, shout out to Luca for her campaign, like turning the streetlighting county until likea citizen science game. They can't wait to hear more updates on that project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I think those are two very transferable projects right. I think anyone could pick something like that and run that in their own community if they ever wanted to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the idea of holding the frame up, because I've done a globe at night and I've taught people how to do it as well, but I think something about holding it up and focusing your attention on that area, I think, makes it more impactful. That's hard to describe, but I like it. I'm going to use that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe I'll even try the star counting thing myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll be really curious of what you have down in Atlantic City. Here in Philadelphia we have. So where we live we're outside of the downtown and I can count about 110 stars a night. That's about downtown. I think they count 30. In human health, big news out of the journal Nature and Mental Health. In a study involving 86,000 adults aged 55 to 69 years, those found that greater exposure to nighttime light increased the risk for a whole slew of mental health issues, including depression, anxiety, PTSD, bipolar disorder and more. The findings appear in line with other studies on circadian rhythm, including one that showed exposure to light during the daytime similarly reduced said mental health issues. Reinforcing the daylight, dark night positive circadian responses.
Speaker 2:Sorry. Yeah, I just wanted to comment on that article because I really enjoyed it and I do. Every year I do a program at the observatory for a group called Creative Vets and they're veterans with PTSD and traumatic brain disorders or other combat-related ailments and so every year they come here to do astrophotography and they come here for about four nights and they've all said they sleep better when they stay up. At the observatory our astronomers lodge, where we're very strict about closing your curtains. All the lights are amber in the hallways because the people who use it are primary nocturnal. But they've all said this has been great from a mental health, just being here, being under a night sky, sleeping regularly, and so I've known this for a long time and the veterans have known it for a long time. But it's great to see a study that really demonstrated on a large scale that this isn't just a one-off thing, so I was really pleased to see that.
Speaker 1:So, steve, we had an additional piece here and it came from the Journal of Biological Rhythms, where they actually looked at the health benefits of preterm babies and if they were in a natural circadian environment. They were actually released out earlier. So we do have plenty of studies now, kind of packing that in that the natural circadian environment we have a dark night and a bright day and how it actually helps your physiology and your mental health. It's there, and then, just to finish it out, there was an article from the National Institute of Health this month with Dr Mariana Figaro Mount Sinai and a director of the Light and Health Research Center, and among the questions that was posed in the article I found a discussion of individual light sensitivity variation to be kind of really the most fascinating one, whereby teenagers are more sensitive to blue light than adults and women overall being more sensitive than men to blue light. There's some health news for this month.
Speaker 4:I want to kind of take a stab at that because I kind of checked the boxes of what they described. So I think part of the article that talks about teenagers being more sensitive to blue light that might be because of the technology access that we all have in this generation, like with TikTok, instagram, youtube and all that screen time, and I totally get it. But it's such an interesting topic to study.
Speaker 1:It's perviated. My parents use their phone maybe not to the degree that you use a phone, but they use the phone still. They keep it by their bed. I'm sure they check it before they go to bed and stuff like that and it's scary. We'll see how this stuff plays out in time. But yeah, I think you have a good point. So we have this one from Canada, this article, tonight. I love this piece. This is my favorite streetlight article we've seen in a while. We have a Darwin Award contestant, and this is good.
Speaker 1:In an attempt to stay warm, tara Scott bristly walked the streets of Barnaby, british Columbia, on November 11th 2022. It was then that Scott collided directly with a black, unlit streetlight pole that she claims was placed in the middle of the sidewalk. Scott sued Barnaby for $5,000 and the court returned in favor of the city, citing that it was not unreasonable for streetlight poles to be painted black. Nor were there branches to hit the pole, as Scott contended. And finally, the court found that the pole was readily visible, given a light cast from streetlights on either side of it, and, of course, there's a bright intersection over here that actually casts even more lights aside.
Speaker 2:When I talk to business owners about lighting, one of the things that they always say is they're afraid of getting sued. It's like, well, we want to do the right thing, but we don't want to get in, we don't want some of the trip and then sue us. I think that fear is somewhat overblown, but I guess this article proves there are still people out there who are going to try it.
Speaker 1:But it seems like you probably be able to see it right. I can envision a street scape right. You have some lights on the side and you have a bright lit corner. You know and you can probably see what's going on. She probably was not paying attention and walked right into the stupid thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like she also might have been on a real quest to find warmth. I mean, I get wanting to stay warm, but then, like smacking into a black streetlight, that's the whole nether level. It's kind of like the classic case of oh, watch where you're going, and then the lesson learns streetlight poles are where they're supposed to be, even if they're doing a good ninja impression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, since we're on fluff pieces, next time any of you guys go to LA, you got to check out the Museum of Street Lighting. This museum showcases several dozen fixtures since the late 19th century. I mean, why wouldn't you visit the Museum of Street Lighting over in LA? It's got to be great. Can't wait to see the fixtures they have in the parking lot. That's got to be a good time.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, what would be interesting about that is if they showed the progression of how lights have changed right, like from gas lights to present day lights, because I think that'd be fascinating to see actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think those are actually on site. You can see the progression.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I unironically would go to that because I'm interested, but I don't think I'd get my girlfriend to come with me.
Speaker 1:Bonnie, you will go to a tomb. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 4:I would. Yeah, it's cool to see something like some place appreciate the less flashy side of things in like the world where it is now like can get a bit sensational. Like a museum dedicated to street lighting Like none of my friends would come with me, but like I totally go. It kind of reminds you like there's interesting things in the everyday stuff, even if it's just a humble street light.
Speaker 1:And it may be that they were actually done in a way that was artistic or with character right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that reminds me of lights in Austin, the moonlight towers where they used to have massive towers, almost like the arc lights.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one of them has been kept around. I don't know if it's still working, but for historical reasons they've kept the tower. And I've often been asked by people in Austin like what do I think of that from a light pollution perspective? Because obviously just blasting light across the huge area, not great. But you know, there's a historic value to it as well, sort of cultural value to this. So again, to me it's like the original LED ball in Vegas. I don't know, but this one's more historical than that.
Speaker 1:Arc lights definitely had an impact. Huh yeah, local newscast. They're never sensationalistic, right? We've never had a local newscast has been sensationalistic. I see these articles come through.
Speaker 1:This month we had a newscast from Florida blaming lack of lights as a prime reason why a cyclist was run down and killed by a county deputy in the early hours. Terrible incident. Let's pause for a second on this one. The cyclist has run down the pre dawn hours on the side of a seven lane road which in flat Florida doubles as a highway. Let's be honest. They put up a bike lane with no barriers or protection. Adjacent to the seven lane highway, on the same surface, is a paved marking as a bike lane with three lanes of direct to traffic.
Speaker 1:It's pre dawn, so I'm assuming the cyclist had to have some kind of light. You can see the guide, you know you want to see what's on the ground. So cyclists probably had like a headlight and maybe even like a back blinking light. But those are all assumptions. Nothing is written about in this piece or spoken about in this piece. There apparently were no street lights and the fact that the bike lane was placed on a seven lane highway couldn't be to blame at all for this. But if we had the magic of light, this county deputy wouldn't have run down and killed this cyclist. That's what this piece is trying to tell you. Am I crazy and thinking that maybe if you had a better engineered integration of a bike lane on a major road, the person wouldn't have been killed?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't think a street lights going to magically fix the situation. It's frustrating how sometimes the focus shifts from addressing real issues to like quick fixes that don't really solve anything. Like I totally agree with you, though, like I think they should focus more on the laning instead of like the lighting situation here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is something I talked about with oil and gas and other industrial facilities as well that lighting is not a replacement for good safety measures like infrastructural change, making sure you have enough space, making sure you're doing things properly. It could enhance safety, but it by itself is not an effective safety tool. It's only good in conjunction with other things, but lighting is one of those things that it's the easiest thing to address and a lot of people's minds and it's the first thing people reach to in a lot of these situations.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like we're in a world where a lack of street lighting is becoming the root of all problems.
Speaker 3:I really like what you said there, stephen, too. That's a great way to put it that lighting can enhance safety, but it itself is not safety.
Speaker 1:I agree with that wholeheartedly, well, since we're on the topic of safety, this next one is pretty big for any policy geek at home. The city of Louisville has a lighting plan which I assume is more indicative of what most communities actually set out to do. So it's a pair of from reading the materials that Louisville is attempting to convert over to LED, but for a reason they aren't doing it in one fell swoop. Instead they're targeting troubled areas of the city, be it in certain intersections or bars. Louisville commissioned strand associates to perform a lighting study on areas predefined by the city. Strand dutifully wrote up a 171 page recommendation. I would note the article tone, which directly plays into the fear narrative spoken about in the previous article, and in this one it is trying to justify Louisville's having a $1 billion budget to request new lighting. If you need any further proof the legs of axiisms here's one from Jeffrey Brown of Louisville Metro Public Works, as an engineer street lights are one of the proven countermeasures to improve safety.
Speaker 1:What am I missing on the crime front? We had Chicago crime lab study that essentially found that you know, if you weaponize lighting, you get rid of lighting. Is that what we need to do? Is that? Is that the solution to crime? It's just by weaponizing lighting. So we'll note that the strand report excluded any daytime analysis per Louisville, who were only interested in assessing the nighttime environments. So it translates very narrow plan from start to finish. It doesn't appear to be part of an integrated crime reduction plan, but it may be. That's just not being included in any of the details presented in the package or in the article itself. So rather, from what I've read, this is just about justifying spending on new lights and, steve, you said something earlier where oil industry is very much looking to have lighting justify for to kind of prevent lawsuits, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. I mean, yeah, not just oil, but you know any big box store they want to. They don't want to get sued for something getting hurt or if, in the case of oil and gas, they don't want insurance payouts or things like that. They're very, they're very cognizant of, yeah, the legal risk of safety, which I think can cause them to overdo it in some cases. But, yeah, in terms of cities, I think it is like I said earlier lighting is just the easiest thing for them to do. It's the first thing in the toolkit that they reach to, because the root problems that they really need to address are much more challenging and they need to appear to the public eye to be doing something.
Speaker 1:And you have to justify that big spend right. You can't just have a new budget saying we're going to go out and buy something for a billion dollars Kind of need to speak to it. Well, the city of Halton, michigan, has an idea to install street lights but the community isn't exactly thrilled with it and at one of the recent meetings a attendee actually spoke up and this is a quote from that attendee. I did ask one resident who voted yes as I was out yesterday, and he said well, if I had been located on my lot I would have voted no. And residents actually mentioned how they enjoyed the evening and early morning ambience of the area without street lights. So they question why all of a sudden street lighting is a concern. Halton actually tabled the actions for street lights but plans to continue to persuade I mean discuss new street lights with residents in the new year. That kind of contrasts directly with a big city, right?
Speaker 4:It seems like there's a mixed bag of motives. The fear is definitely strong and it's there, especially with that. I read like one billion budget requests and I feel like just the focus on specific troubled areas raises questions like is it really targeted improvement or just a way to justify spending? And I definitely think this clash between urban development and preserving communities unique atmosphere something worth exploring further as a lighting.
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to get to that right here, bonnie. We got one perfect article right here that discusses what you're asking, sustained in the same general ballpark there's up in Rhode Island. Providence Journal reported that a plan to light soccer fields has put it frosty due to observatory and science center against the Charles Town Council. It all started when the Charles Town Council set out to do a required revision to the Integrate Parks master plan. The town owns 55 acres of the 227 acre site. Community members are requesting, in addition to rec field lighting to support 450 soccer, football and cheerleading participants, new pickleball courts and, of course, road lighting.
Speaker 1:Deborah Carney, town Council president, is cited as saying the park is for the people. The park is for all the residents of Charles Town. Conversely, frosty due observatory sites servicing hundreds of Charles Town residents that love the beauty of the park, love the beauty of the night sky and are thrilled that the town is considered the most accessible spot in New England to see the Milky Way. Charles Town, rhode Island, hugs the coast south of Providence and Integrate Park is adjacent to National Wildlife Refuge. Deborah Carney once installed dark sky friendly lighting and then appears to be considering the utilization of a timer to appease all parties.
Speaker 1:Scott McNeil of the frosty due observatory in other hands, sees most of his visitors arrive at sunset and depart within the earshot of that thereafter, mcneil believes that lights will be a major problem for the observatory. The issue derives from the shared use of the property by both the observatory and the sports fields, so Charles Town actually passed a dark sky ordinance way back in 2012. And I asked John Barrenstein about this when he was on, and I want to pose to you guys what you think. Is protecting the night sky really possible when communities begin to experience that growth and, bonnie, this is to your point Is it really possible when communities grow? Or these irreconcilable differences?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's hard to tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on this subject. I actually have some inside knowledge on this issue with the city and frosty due observatory because back in January the city council member actually reached out to me on advice on what lighting to choose and sort of get my input on. They wanted to sort of look at what the McDonald Observatory had done, what lighting we have for our visitors which is all very minimal red light and try to do something similar. And so what they eventually decided on was narrow band amber fixtures, low intensity, on ballards in sort of the parking area and some pathways near the observatory, and so to that end I believe they are installing a few as a trial and just evaluating how it goes. But wildlife was another motivation for it. It wasn't just the observatory but they were conscious of the pollution effects on wildlife. When I saw this article I reached back to the councilman and asked him. It sounds like this is becoming a heated topic and it was disappointed to see it come to a head. But his response was that the articles have dramatized the narrative and it's actually not as bad as it makes it seem.
Speaker 2:The idea to put stadium lighting has not actually gone anywhere. It hasn't actually come before the council yet. So it's not like they're immediately going to do it. It's not like they've really even said that for sure that they will, because there are other parks in the city nearby and that do already have soccer fields with lighting that could be used. So they haven't really decided if there will be lighting. And if there is stadium lighting at the soccer field, then it would be on strict time controls and only a handful of times a year. So it sounds to me like the community is actually trying really hard to balance the needs of astronomy and dark skies with public enjoyment. And I do think communities can balance it too because we've done it here. Fort Davis, alpine, marfa, in our area are living examples of communities living in harmony with the needs of astronomy and there's a lot of community pride around it. So I think it can be done, and I think the article has dramatized it a little bit unfairly, frankly.
Speaker 1:It sounded like the town actually had some substantial dark sky programs in place. They actually had some positive lighting in areas and they had good fixtures and it did sound like the town had a plan already active. So when I read that it kind of shocked me that the observatory was kind of the one standing there and raising a tan when the town seemed like they were actually trying to be considered of the observatory. Also placate soccer players.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's something we have to do all the time and I understand that if you continually compromise, then eventually you erode your position, right? So it's still light. To go back to our first article, even good lighting is still light and it still can be light pollution. But we also have to balance those needs and I think that the observatory's main concern is just that the stadium is right there. They're sharing the same park. So even if it is good, it is still in impact. But they're doing what they can and it's a difficult position, but I think they are going to find a solution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's hope. Let's hope it's a good result there.
Speaker 1:Now I just want to take a quick break here before we wrap up the show and just to remind you guys, on our site we have a whole host of helpful lighting tips and tricks for around the yard and more, and you can also find this show over at Light Pollution News on LinkedIn or Instagram lightpollutionnews.
Speaker 1:And definitely stop by our Reddit page at r slash light pollution news. I tend to throw up things that I stumble across randomly or stuff that was tossed my way. That doesn't usually make the show, so there's always some good stuff around. And then, lastly, you can find this show on every podcast provider out there, including YouTube, so be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening to or from or however that is working on your end. If you could provide us one quick holiday gift for us, it'd be to just take one quick second to provide a rating or review, whatever app you're using. Before we get any further, I want to give you guys a chance to plug yourselves, and to start with you, bonnie. Bonnie, won't you tell us any new things you're working on or anything fun that's coming down to shoot?
Speaker 4:Nothing fun, just stressful, to be honest. I am starting some research projects on plankton, zooplankton, phytoplankton, all that stuff near the docks, and I was hoping to explore the effects of anti-fouling paint on those species. I know it all sounds boring, but it's just because anti-fouling paint is something that you scrub on the bottom of your boats to prevent, like, moss growth and stuff. And I live near a fairly close dock and I just wanted to kind of explore that gap of like if it really affects the growth of marine life. And I'm going to be testing that in certain lighting, so maybe like they grow better in red lighting, white lighting, I don't know Adjusting that. And yeah, that's kind of what I'm working on right now and nothing much interesting, to be honest, that sounds pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:That sounds pretty good. I'm really curious about that study right there, a little bit of a high school research. I want to hear it. So keep us in your thoughts when you're working on that, steven. Where can people learn more about you, about McDonald Observatory, about all the great things you're doing down there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can learn more about McDonald Observatory at mcdonaldobservatoryorg and you can learn more about the Greater Big Bend International Dark Sky Reserve, which is part of that Big Bend Dark Sky Reserveorg. It's the largest area in the world certified by Dark Sky International.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'll be headed down for the eclipse. I'll be going down that way and swinging out to Big Bend after, after or before the eclipse. I forget when we're going, but I have to stop by. That's it. Yeah, that's been on the box for quite a while. I'm very excited to be going down there.
Speaker 2:Let me know, I'll be sure to meet up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and Travis, tell us about the new book. Where can people find it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have this book that just actually this. Just a few days ago we had the launch event for it in Minneapolis. It's published by Minnesota Historical Society Preps and it's called Spirits Dancing the Night Sky Indigenous Knowledge and Living Connections to the Cosmos, and you can buy it directly from the Minnesota Historical Society Press website. It's also on Amazon Barnes, noble, I believe, maybe Targetcom and a variety of independent booksellers too. So if you just get on Google and type in Spirits Dancing, travis Novitski, you'll find a whole bunch of links to order it from.
Speaker 3:But it's been about eight years in the making since I first started working on it, so long time coming, and I don't really have any big projects coming up in the near future because I had the documentary last year, I got the book this year. So kind of hoping to just maybe kind of lean back for a little bit, maybe take some photography trips. I head down to the Southwest quite a bit. I'd love to go to Big Bend again. That place has some of the darkest skies I've ever been to. It's pretty cool, yeah. But you can find my main photography site is travisnovitskicom and that's NOVITSKY. You can also find the documentary on YouTube by just typing in Northern Knights, starry Skies. Thanks, I have to look for the book. I'm very excited.
Speaker 1:Great work, travis. That's no small feat. So that's a busy two years. Yeah, yeah, it's been.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, since we're on the, topic of Dark Sky Community.
Speaker 1:It's talking about Big Bend there. Dark Sky areas designations there are two new designations this month, and that's a park, ecological Oya Barreta in the first, urban Knights Sky designation for Mexico. And then we got Vecor France, which became the fifth Dark Sky Reserve in France. So kudos to those guys. How about this for some technology news guys? And Stephen, I'm really curious if you've actually I'm sure you've dug your teeth into this one so obviously light is a threat to visual observatories, right, but what if you could eliminate that nuisance altogether? A German company called Stealth Transit has come up with an ingenious solution to eliminating light pollution from astronomical observatories. The technology, dubbed the Dark Sky Protector, essentially syncs the camera's shutter to the refresh rate of the LED. Stealth Transit believes the technique would be applicable to most LED lights and wouldn't impose any additional costs on those communities. What are your thoughts on that one, stephen? Did you take a look at that? I'm sure that's gone around the circles. Yes, I did take a look at it.
Speaker 2:I think it is very interesting and I think I want to encourage it, but the caveat being that would only work for specific kinds of science and observation. It would not work for visual astronomy. So I wouldn't solve the traditional IP experience, which I think is still incredibly important. But it would work for long exposure astronomy, if you're on one target for a while and taking a long exposure and then having gaps where the frequency of the light. The downside is that a lot of the science that we do at McDonald's and it's going to change on every observatory even night to night, but we do a lot of really high refresh rate astronomy, looking at, for example, the pulsations in a star on the order of less than a second. I don't think that technology would be compatible with that kind of science.
Speaker 2:Then having a shutter moving could introduce some of the other things that we do. Moving could introduce optical effects which could interfere with things. Most of our science is spectroscopy rather than imaging. I'm not really sure if it would be effective for that. So I think it could help some things, but it's not a panacea. It's not going to fix the problems overall. We'd still have to address lighting. And then the other thought was my girlfriend is really sensitive to LED flicker, and so if, for example, if I install bulb in a dimmable switch and it's not compatible, I can't really tell, but this light's terrible. Everything looks like a strobe and I wonder if this technology would make that effect worse or if it's still the same.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that was some good thoughts. Yeah, I didn't even think I figured it wasn't for every observatory, but it is an interesting approach. I'm going to find a solution to something that seems to not be going by the wayside anytime soon. Could I interest you guys in a do-it-yourself air, noise and light pollution measuring station with Wi-Fi connectivity? Sound too good to be true. The Harvard X had the $628 system that obtained an average air of 2.67% for each variable measure. These schematics can be found over at show notes, but for those of you sitting at home who might be inclined, that's something pretty interesting. Harvard X actually had the schematics on how to build this little pollution station, so you can measure it. Interesting, here we go, travis. We found something for you to do for the next year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds neat. I would love that. I would love like air, noise and light combined. That's what appeals to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does it all, and all you need to do is they have all the schematics out there, so very, very cool to check out. Definitely would recommend going over to the website and grabbing that link. A few more things to note before we say goodbye to 2023. First, were you aware that Montana has a trail to the stars map? In actuality, I don't think it has anything to do with trails, which really piqued my interest initially, but it's a map showing various camping areas, featuring the open Milky Way above Montana showcases just another way for you to participate in Astro Tourism, and what I like the most about this is that you don't need to have a ton of money to participate. There are campgrounds, not high end resorts, right? So minus the fact that Montana camping versus glamping offers much more reasonable opportunity.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think this comes back to the though we did the is darkness a luxury question many times, and when you hear stuff like this, it's like see, it doesn't have to always be expensive or considered a luxury for people to enjoy the beauty of the night sky. Camping under an open Milky Way sounds like a dream, and it makes it accessible for regular folks to just enjoy the dark sky.
Speaker 1:It's pretty. Yeah, you can spend $25 versus $400. The flight there might be a little pricey.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Unless you're Travis, you can probably just drive over.
Speaker 3:And Bill, you mentioned this and I think pre multiple times in previous episodes, but I think we're always going to have that barrier to some degree of where people live versus where the good, high quality dark skies are. But I think increasing access as much as we can, or accessibility to the dark skies once you're in that area, and so this I just Google this Montana Trail to the Stars and and, yeah, it looks like quite a few sites around the state, so you know, the more sites that participate or the more sites that you have, that increases accessibility because you might not have to drive from, you know, minnesota, for example, the southeastern part of the state, to the northeastern part, which is, you know, 400 miles or more. You've got sites that are closer to you. So I think anything we can do to keep increasing that accessibility is great.
Speaker 1:Travis, you nailed it. I was speaking earlier this year with the Ranger over at Cherry Springs here in Pennsylvania and he had mentioned they're trying to put down essentially stargazing programs lower in the state. So they're trying to bring it down lower to closer to the cities and with different state parks they have that still have pretty decent sky. And for that exact reason because you know if anything can do to make it more accessible in the areas that already have good skies, right, maybe part of it is that there's just a scarcity of opportunities to actually partake in it and maybe not a scarcity of areas that actually have a good natural light Right.
Speaker 3:I think the scarcity of activities is key there because you know like, I grew up in a dark area so I'm naturally comfortable going outside at night. And you know, again, like living very close to well, I'm surrounded by forests. I've got a superior national forest is right at my doorstep. That's, I think, a million acres or something like that. But folks coming from a city don't have that inherent sense of comfortableness with being outside, especially in a wild area, you know, because of course they're worried about the bears and I get asked that question a lot. Aren't you scared going out there? And I'm like, well, scared of what you know. I'm more scared of going to downtown Minneapolis and walking across the street. You know I'm more likely to get hurt there by get by a car or tripping on a curb or something you know than I am to get attacked by a bear up here.
Speaker 1:Right, it's kind of like the known fears and the unknown.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean definitely what freaks people out, but what I like telling people and this is going to vary, of course, depending on you know where you live and what the city, the layout of the cities in the area that you live, but in terms of you know, the largest metro area closest to me is Minneapolis St Paul.
Speaker 3:Also, I got asked this question at the book launch event was what can I do to gain access to night skies without good night skies, without having to go very far, and at least here in Minnesota, like Minneapolis, st Paul is the largest light dome that Minnesota has. So just getting north of that light dome and knowing that there isn't much more light pollution north of that, you know don't go south of the cities because then you're going to be looking. If you're thinking Northern Lights, you know you're going to be looking right over the Twin Cities and you're just going to see the glow of the cities. But all you got to do is go a little bit further north, maybe even just 30 minutes outside of you know, minneapolis St Paul, and you've got good, good dark skies, or you know reasonably good.
Speaker 1:Lucky man.
Speaker 3:So sometimes you don't have to go very far, but you're lucky Sometimes you do. Well, that's not for me, that's you know. My advice to people is just get out of the city to whatever extent you can, you know, because you're going to increase your night skype visibility even if you're just a little ways out of a lot of cities not all of them, but many of them.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to ask you guys about the actual hikes now, because we looked at the trail of essentially campgrounds, not really a trail. You guys have any favorite stargazing hikes? I'll name one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like just hikes that are spectacular at night. This came because of an idea. There's a Times Union article that talked about some of the best hikes in Northeast for stargazing or just kind of like a night hike where you actually get to see the immersive sky and a you know the twin or Wittenberg mountains up in the Catskills and I would suggest Cascade Mountain in Adirondacks, which is a amazingly it's like a four mile hike in and a four mile round trip actually and it's clear on the top and you can see pretty much everything there.
Speaker 3:Well, this is kind of funny because I, you know again where I live. There's a lot of hiking trails but I wouldn't consider most of them very good night sky hikes because we have so many trees and these trails are really like canopies when you hike through them. You know, when you're on the trail you don't see the sky very much until you get to an overlook or something. But there are places like, let's see, I mean I I number of hikes I would, I could recommend in the Southwest, but one of my favorites was hiking down to not sure if I'm pronouncing this right, but O'Watchamo Bridge or O'Watchamo Bridge in Natural Bridges National Monument. That was just incredible.
Speaker 3:Relatively easy hike, if I remember correctly, not too long, but it goes, it's, it's, you know, incredible. You're up at 8,000 feet or something like that and you do have, you know, a lot of airplanes flying over, but you see a ton of stars there and you're seeing them over this huge natural sandstone arch bridge, just incredible, and you see the stars along the whole hike. But yeah, up here in Minnesota, you know, probably shorter hikes would be better because then you're not hiking through the forest canopy for three or four miles sometimes. Yeah, so the North Shore State Parks are great because they've got a number of short, short trails that have open views next to Lake Superior that are just incredible.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite hikes in Big Bend Ranch State Park, which is a massive state park adjacent to the national park, is are there basically anything in the interior of the park? It's very remote and if you're hiking in the summer then every hike is a night hike, because if you hike in the summer you you will die if you go out in the sun. So yeah, I've taken many walks in the mid-light and stuff like that down there and all the wildlife comes out and it's just, it's a totally different world and I always love it.
Speaker 1:How about we wrap things up here? Let's end 2023 on a good note, shall we? Let's set aside our noctalizer for a moment and think back to a time far and near that a natural night show slowly blanket it your daytime. In many ways, this next one really gets at the heart of the connection to our unappreciated and more and more unacknowledged night. It comes to us from the family owned independent Mountain Times newspaper, based in Killington, vermont. The piece titled Living a Dream stars in a dark night sky recount one individual's lifelong connection to the natural day night cycle. I think the following quote best sums up what many of us have already experienced.
Speaker 1:No matter the time of day, I love laying on my blanket in the middle of the field and staring up at the sky. While you are the one that walks through the forest to create movement, the sky appears exactly the opposite. Only when you lie perfectly still can you track the movements of the elements, the clouds rolling by, the planets slowly making their way, or tracking the stars from night to night. It's all right there if you just sit and let it pass you by. I was there to be in the moment, to get lost in meditative study of the sky around me to pay close attention to that. I believed I could feel the earth moving underneath the starry sky. I love watching the clouds move around the moon, changing the feeling of a night from peaceful to eerie in just a few minutes. But my favorite is when a lion and a hunter starts to rise in the sky. It's really one of the only constellations I know, and in our part of the world it rises as winter comes. It reminds me to get ready to start prepping my home for the upcoming changes for the season. I mean, obviously I could look at the leaves to see that winter was coming, but the sky also tells a story when we see it.
Speaker 1:I want to thank my guest Travis Novitsky, bonnie Pang, steve and Hummell. Thank you, guys, so much for coming on the show. From both of us here at Light Pollution News Podcast, we wish you a happy New Year and a safe and healthy holiday season. We record light pollution news on the second to last Sunday of every month at 4pm Eastern Time. Be sure to find all the links to today's show over at lightpollutionnewscom. Signing off on Bill McGeaney helping shine the light only where it's needed. Thank you once more, folks, and have a great December.