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'Why It's So Bright at Night' is a periodic episode of Light Pollution News, where host Bill McGeeney sits down and chats to understand the positions of people who advocate for light. The show's intent is to spur conversation and understanding, helping all of us work together to a common unified goal of a better tomorrow for people, plants and animals.
This episode, mentioned in the Feb 2024: A Space for Celebration episode, Jennifer Huygen started a petition in Stevenage, England to add lighting to a park. We explore why the lighting is needed, what types of lighting would be deemed acceptable, and seek to understand the cultural issues that are driving the need behind the lights.
Like what we're doing? For the cost of coffee, you can become a Monthly Supporter? Your assistance will help cover server and production costs.
What did you think of this Episode? Text Us!
'Why It's So Bright at Night' is a periodic episode of Light Pollution News, where host Bill McGeeney sits down and chats to understand the positions of people who advocate for light. The show's intent is to spur conversation and understanding, helping all of us work together to a common unified goal of a better tomorrow for people, plants and animals.
This episode, mentioned in the Feb 2024: A Space for Celebration episode, Jennifer Huygen started a petition in Stevenage, England to add lighting to a park. We explore why the lighting is needed, what types of lighting would be deemed acceptable, and seek to understand the cultural issues that are driving the need behind the lights.
Like what we're doing? For the cost of coffee, you can become a Monthly Supporter? Your assistance will help cover server and production costs.
Welcome to. Why so Bright at Night? This is a periodic show where I sit down and chat with folks who might not be as familiar with the concepts and body in protecting nighttime environments. My hope is to facilitate conversation to help us all walk together to a common goal, that being to mitigate negative consequences of human impacts on nighttime ecosystems and environments. Today I'm very happy to welcome Jennifer Hogan. Did I get that right? Am I close?
Jennifer Huygen:That's okay, you're close.
Bill McGeeney:Jennifer, I first came across your name in a petition to Stevenage, England, to have new streetlights installed in a paved park trail to better facilitate ease of evening and morning commuting.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, that's about right. So it's to Stevenage Board of Council. That's correct, but it's not necessarily streetlights. I specifically asked for streetlights. I asked for lighting on the main path in Fairlands Valley Park, which is a main park in Stevenage, which is right in the center of it.
Bill McGeeney:We'll get into, I guess, lighting in a second, but right now I want to kind of understand, so listeners can understand what Stevenage, the town of Stevenage, where it is. You know what the whole area looks like and then what the park is used for and what the park looks like. So we do have something in common. I know you're a bike commuter, right?
Jennifer Huygen:Yes, I cycle, yeah, I do yeah.
Bill McGeeney:Yeah, and I personally I love biking. I bike commute as well, and I love it. There's nothing better than being on a bike and being able to, you know, go to where you want to go and stop off where you want to go, and you feel great. You just feel great when you're doing it. Why don't you explain? Tell me a little bit about Stevenage. Who lives there? How many people live there? Do you guys have like a primary industry or do most people commute? Do they commute down to London, or was Stevenage England?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, no, thank you. So Stevenage, of course I would say is the best town in England, of course I would say that. So I actually used to live in London. I moved to see that only a year ago, so it's actually very close to London, just north of it. So we are in the county of Hertfordshire, which is just north of London.
Jennifer Huygen:As I said, we have eight trains an hour and I go to London. You can get to King Scrolls that's the Harry Potter station for people who don't know London In just 19 minutes. We're going to use the fast train, but generally you can get there in under 30 minutes if you use like a slower, slower train as well. So a lot of people, yeah, of course they work in London or they work in Cambridge, kind of, because we're in between, but actually most people work in Stevenage themselves. I actually looked up the figures and the Stevenage free generation scheme that we have going on actually estimates that 50,000 people local people, actually are employed in Stevenage and our biggest employer is JSK, so that's a pharmaceutical company and you think, ok, 50,000, that doesn't sound like a lot, but actually our town is 89,500 people, so that actually is a larger portion of local people are actually employed in town. So Stevenage was the first new town in England and I'm not sure, bill, but you're familiar with the new town, yeah why don't you explain that concept?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, so that is actually. That was a program from the UK government to ease housing pressures after the Second World War. So they literally built new towns. So Stevenage before it was Stevenage it was, you know, a collection of villages on the countryside and they literally created a town from where there was no town before. So plans were drawn up in, I think well, I know the first people moved in in 1951. And that was five years after, after the plans were approved. So that was 1946, then that plans were approved. So it's quite a special place, I would say.
Jennifer Huygen:But it also means that people have thought very long and hard about how to design the town as well. And it means that, you know, when we come to cycling, for example, we have segregated cycling lanes which were, especially in the early time, in the early days, used a lot by workers to get to and from work. I've been to the local museum. I've seen such cool pictures of like people riding their bikes on the segregated lanes to go to work, and that was until cars became more popular. So we had a lot of industries, still have a lot of industries. Around wartime, stevenage actually produced a lot of weapons as well. But also the one thing that I think is really, really cool about Stevenage is the Mars rover was actually developed and tested in Stevenage and we still have Airbus as a large local employer as well which I think is not a lot of people know.
Bill McGeeney:I had no idea. That's great, that's good little trivia fact right there.
Jennifer Huygen:And I guess the final thing to say about Stevenage which is very relevant, I think, to why you've invited me on, is it is a very urban place but it has a lot of park and green spaces, so we have multiple parks and actually the town was developed and designed with Stevenage being a public space network as well. So, yeah, the park itself that we're talking about, fred and Sferdy Park, is actually two miles north to south, and then actually the town is kind of around that. So it's yeah, that's great, I think.
Bill McGeeney:Yeah, it looks like a very long park right.
Jennifer Huygen:It is yeah, yeah, it is yeah.
Bill McGeeney:So who uses that park?
Jennifer Huygen:Oh, a lot of people. Obviously I use it. We get a lot of commuters using it.
Bill McGeeney:Is it like a cut through?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, so the park could actually connect three different wards or three different key neighbourhoods. We have on the south side of it we have a retail park where a lot of local people live, but it's also cut through, as you said, towards the town centre as well for people living in the north and east side of the town. We have a lot of schools around the park, so it's obviously children, families, teachers who use it. We have a lot of dog walkers coming there. We've got the running clubs. The cycling hub of Steve Nitch is located in Fairlands Valley Park as well. I spoke to older people who go there for their daily exercise.
Bill McGeeney:Do you have Tai Chi and I guess?
Jennifer Huygen:We probably do to be fair. I don't know, but we probably do. I have seen groups going there for exercise in a group form beyond running. We probably do, I'm just not aware of it.
Bill McGeeney:What does the park visually look like? Mostly wood, or do you have football fields? Do you have sporting facilities?
Jennifer Huygen:We don't have football fields inside the park Bordering it. There are football fields but not inside the park. It's 120 acres for people who might work in that way they will understand it, it's really big.
Jennifer Huygen:In the master plan for Steve Nitch, the proposal was for this park to be the town's principal area of recreation. There's actually some artificially created lakes, as well as green space as well. The north end specifically has a sailing lake for sailing and fishing. There's a trim trail. On the south side there's a grasshopper trail, wildflower beddow. They plant the millennium woods in the 1990s-2000s. On the north side they planted trees and hedges. There's a fountain, there's birch feeders, there's a paddling pool, play area. There's a cafe and studio for communities to use. It has a lot. It has something for everyone.
Bill McGeeney:It sounds like a really fun park.
Jennifer Huygen:As they would say. I do want to emphasise, though, the park is right in the middle of an urban area. It has schools, sports fields, housing, woodlands, all next to it. There's also a main road that crosses through the park. The park is cut into two. You've got the north side and the south side. There's an underpass for pedestrians and cyclists to pass that main road. The south side as well is referred to locally as the show ground. The council actually has a premise licence for events for that area as well.
Bill McGeeney:When the show ground is that just like seasonal festivals or something.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, it's mostly grasslands. They have now also planted new trees there as well. On the edges of it there's also grasslands, a wildflower meadow and then obviously there's the millennium wood on the side there as well.
Jennifer Huygen:I guess the final thing to say on the park as well, which may not be, as I don't know if it's common in the US or not, but when I lived in London, the park is closed at dusk, but this park is 24-hour access, which for some cities and towns that's not common, but this park has 24-hour access to it.
Bill McGeeney:Right, yeah, In the US it's hit or miss. Some places Urban parks are typically I don't know if they're posted, at least here on the east coast. I don't know if they're posted for no use after dark, but they're always 24-7. Everything's 24-7. Now you're not going to have sports usually at 1 in the morning, right? Yeah, that sounds like a really great park. That sounds like a great spot for the community, I assume. Does the festival area now have lighting?
Jennifer Huygen:No, none of it. The only part of the park that has some lighting. There are two routes on the north side of it that go east to west that have some streetlights. That I think was part of a safer route to school kind of network. There's some lights there but nothing from north to south. That's only on two particular areas on the north side of the park. That said, there is one big bright light next to the sailing lake where the boats are stalled. The light is quite high and I've been told that's for CCTV of it.
Jennifer Huygen:For the lake itself, but that's about it.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, and you said the whole park is abutted by buildings and residential schools and stuff like that. Now, when you're in the park, you have a great picture here where you show yourself I think it was daytime and then at night, with a flashlight down and the camera wasn't able to pick you up. Are those buildings not spilling light over? Is there ambient light there?
Jennifer Huygen:No, no, the light from the building is kind of blocked mostly by the trees kind of around it. You can see the lights from, say, the stadium, there's a football stadium all the way on the south end. So on the south end you then have a big road. On the opposite side of the road there's a big stadium. You can see the billboard lights in the background or, like you know, far away. That doesn't light up your, you know, immediate.
Bill McGeeney:Your immediate area, right? Ok, yeah, and I presume you're using, you're using like a bike light most of the time you go through there.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, so it's interesting because you know most, most bikes, when you buy them they have actually a light you know already attached to them. We bought, like my partner and I, we bought lights that you can detach, that we can use them as a flesh light as well, so they're a little bit more expensive. They're not top range or anything, they're kind of like middle, middle range. So they are definitely, I would say, brighter than most standard bike lights. Yeah, that's the one that we that we've used for that picture that you're referring to.
Bill McGeeney:Ok, I got you. I got you OK. So this new part, well, I guess the additions that they put in the park. It sounds like you have a bit of recreational opportunities, but you also have sounds like they're also trying to cater to some of the insect population there. You have some certain plantings, certain trees and whatnot. Are you aware of any like birds that you can commonly see in there, or other mammals that like foxes or anything that typically reside in there?
Jennifer Huygen:Oh yeah, we definitely have foxes. I think that's the standard in in the UK. In our towns and cities we have, you know, we have foxes. I've heard owls as well.
Bill McGeeney:Oh wow, that's great Difficult words to pronounce.
Jennifer Huygen:I've heard them, I've not seen them. You have a lot of geese coming around.
Bill McGeeney:That's everywhere.
Jennifer Huygen:That's everywhere. I think. You know we have common common ducks, squirrels obviously we got the American squirrels or the gray squirrels here. We got some swans as well, which are fairly common, I think, in UK parks. And then of course, we have that grasshopper area as well. I mentioned that I mentioned earlier. It's interesting because Steve actually has a biodiversity strategy which is very unique for UK councils to have a biodiversity strategy, but Fairlands Valley Park isn't mentioned in it, so I don't actually I was trying to find more information on it, but unfortunately I don't.
Jennifer Huygen:I don't have that information other than what I've observed myself and what I've seen. Yeah, yeah exactly.
Bill McGeeney:OK. Ok, so you touched on this earlier. There's other parks in the community, and now what do these parks look like, because these are ones that close at night? What do they look like? How they're smaller? Oh, they don't. Ok, I'm sorry, I misunderstood, that's, that's my fault.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, yeah, so they, they're also, they're also open. So it's a mix really. A lot of it is, you know, just empty kind of green space with some, you know some, trees and and shrubs, and some do actually have football, football fields in them. The majority, actually, the main lane or path that goes through it actually has lights.
Bill McGeeney:OK, so the other on the main. Did the other ones typically have lights OK?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, they do on the main path, not not. You know, you know lighting up the whole grass field.
Bill McGeeney:That's not the case.
Jennifer Huygen:Just the path. It has some lights to it. Unfortunately Ferris doesn't OK, At least not north and south Right.
Bill McGeeney:Right, OK, Do you know what kind of lighting is? Do you know if it's shielded, If it's just like a light that's aimed on an angle? Do you have like? Do you typically you can tell. Now I'm going to use my bias here. I can tell a what I consider good lighting and bad lighting if I notice the light. So if I don't notice the light, typically in my mind that's good lighting because I don't even know it's there. I'm not having a visual reaction to the light. Do you know it? Do you know about how those lights look, Are they? I know that they're today, but I guess I'm done. There's a standard.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, to me they're standard street lights and I know that in in the UK generally, but also in Hartfordshire and in and therefore in Steve Nudge because interestingly some the cycle lanes and our roads they fall under highways. Therefore their county managed, not Steve Nudge. Borough Council managed.
Bill McGeeney:It gets confusing, of course.
Jennifer Huygen:So, yes, they are your standard kind of street lights that you would see, and I know that there is an intention for them to oh, what's that called? Where they reduce the brightness of the lights, you know, during the night or earlier in the morning, and there's been a kind of a push generally for that. So I imagine that would happen to those street lights as well, but I can't say for certain because I haven't been in the park at four am.
Bill McGeeney:And so Steve Nudge yourself, how would you classify, like, how dark is it really at night in Steve Nudge? Can you see about 100 stars? And I say 100 stars because 100 stars is usually where we have. We have some called a boardal scale, and a boardal scale goes from one, which is like it's very, very dark, to nine, which is Daytime at night. And I know I mean here I live in a border eight where if I got at night like, I'll be honest, I don't need a light. If it's cloudy, it's like a it's a full moon out there because all the lights reflecting off the clouds. So what, how would you say what? Where does it sit in that regard Is? Are you able to talk about that?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, I've tried to pay more attention to it Recently, especially since starting the petition as well. I've gone I've purposely gone to the park at different days when there's more clouds or fewer clouds as well, just to see, you know, just to see the difference. The first thing I would say on that is, obviously, having moved from London to Stephenich, you know you can definitely see more stars, so you can, um, it was the first thing when we moved to our house and I was for the first time in our garden at night and I looked up and I was like, oh, I can actually see stars, wow, um, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I can see a hundred. Um, potentially, on a clear, you know, on the, on a clear night, you could definitely get above 50.
Jennifer Huygen:I would I would say um but um, I can also recognize what you said. But it's cloudy. It looks like there's a kind of almost like a full moon, because when it's cloudy at night. It just looks like white.
Bill McGeeney:Yeah, all the light, all the light is reflected.
Jennifer Huygen:Especially in the park, because you what I imagine you get is a lot of reflection from, I mean, in addition to light pollution, we have a lot of noise pollution as well because of the the, the cars that pass through the park because of six hills ways, that's the road that cuts through it, but also on the west side of the park and we have Fairlands way and there's a lot of cars there as well.
Jennifer Huygen:So we have obviously a lot of reflection from the car lights as well as the street lights from those streets and of course we have the retail park on the south end and of course the general residential area. So we do have a lot of you know light pollution obviously going up. That isn't necessarily from the park, obviously, right.
Bill McGeeney:Right, yeah, I mean especially car headlights. These days car headlights are so bright and you know like it's hard to. It's hard to drive sometimes because you get just lasted.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, I've noticed that as well on the side, like when I use cycle lanes, and obviously it's segregated, but that doesn't mean that there's like a physical barrier between the cycle lanes and you know the general road and then there's cars coming towards you and you're going the other way on your bike.
Bill McGeeney:You get blinded.
Jennifer Huygen:Yes, you know the car is actually coming towards you. So, yeah, no, we've, you know, we've definitely noticed that. But yeah, so I would say, obviously the lights are, in terms of you know, that kind of dark skies feeling, definitely better than in London, but I wouldn't. It's not, as it's not as great as I've seen it in North Devon, for example, when I was on holiday there, so yeah, we definitely don't have. Well, I would say, dark skies and see.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, yeah, we might have the same skies, we might.
Jennifer Huygen:It sounds like we might actually yeah.
Bill McGeeney:Yeah, I can definitely agree. I've been there where you have oncoming cars and you're trying to. Just it takes a recovery time, it takes seconds, it takes quite a while. And I know we're going to get into this because we're going to talk about the actual lighting of the park. One of the things that you're concerned about is, you know people are tripping or hitting something. I don't. I don't know how your say your paved park roads or paved park trails are over there, over here, just be given a geography, given a location we're at. You know we have, we have weather that will freeze thaw, freeze thaw, and the actual path may not be whole per se. So you know that that's a concern, right, like you don't want to have your tired dip into that and then you go flying off into a tree. So so why? Why don't you explain to me what's needed? Why do we need the lights in this park?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah. So I think my best way of explaining it is how I, you know, kind of first explain the situation to the council before my, before I even started the petition, I actually asked the council question during the council meeting and after that I actually had a meeting like a walkabout of the park, together with a council, a counsellor and a council officer as well. So I think the best way is to explain it as I explained it to them. So when most bicycle lights, for example, they're in one position, I can adjust mine as I explained. So if I shine forward, I can see my surroundings up to a meter, but if and if I shine downwards, I can actually see the roads with its bumps. It's a similar situation to you in terms of the quality of the surface isn't great, and that's, you know, being being polite about it. But even though I know the lanes really well, so you could say, oh, you know what, I know the lanes well, so I don't need to shine down, I can just shine forward, so I can just, you know, see my surroundings Actually I still get caught out. I still get caught out, you know, by surprise, by the turns and I often miss turns actually but also by the bumps in it in it as well. So the lanes aren't or the paths aren't in such a state that you can actually cycle them without, without them being lit. They're not flat, they're not as well maintained. Also, stevenage is hilly, as I, I think you know.
Jennifer Huygen:I just mentioned the name of the road that crosses through Fairlands Valley Park. It's called Six Hills Way. It probably gives you an impression of what Stevenage is like. It's not flat like Philly, as you, as you just said. Actually, it has inclinations, it has turns, which makes it even more tricky, and especially in autumn and winter, which is really the ones that we're talking about here, there's leaves on the path, you know you. There's no clear edge, you know, for the path, or where the grass starts, it just gets slippery. And it's not only when you're on your bike, it's also when you're walking as well, or when, or if you're in a wheelchair. It just it's. It's it's not easy to see the edges of the path or to see your surroundings, and I've heard very often that I'm either walking or cycling. Someone is coming towards me.
Bill McGeeney:I'd not noticed it until I'm literally passing them because you can't see each other Right, right, yeah, and especially if you have oncoming bikers too, again you have that glare issue and what kind of I guess what is the perfect situation? What are you looking for, at the most basic level, from Stevenage? What? What would you like to see in the park?
Jennifer Huygen:Yes, I mean it's very difficult for me to give you, like, any technical details of what kind of lighting we would like to see. The petition asked was very was clear in the sense that we asked for, you know, eco-friendly, wildlife conscious lighting along the park's main pathways and access points that are not lit. Yet I want to.
Bill McGeeney:I want to pause you on that right there, because I think that is is phenomenal that you're considering eco-friendly, wildlife friendly lighting, that idea of like an eco approach and considering the environment, saying environment first and then this is this is what we need to facilitate a safe passage In my mind. I love that and that's such a great approach to this. But continue along. I didn't mean to fully cut your off, no, that's a.
Jennifer Huygen:I mean thank you for you know, thank you for recognizing that.
Jennifer Huygen:But yeah, that's, that's been our starting point all along and it's been from the moment I first asked my question to the council back in October 2023. And I made a very specific saying you know, even knowing that there's wildlife friendly, eco-conscious options available, what will the council do? And obviously then I realized I need to show that there's a wider community need and that's why I started a petition to kind of demonstrate that. So, yeah, we asked for the for that specific type of lighting along the main pathways and access points. Now, I'm not a lighting expert at all and I'm also not a wildlife expert, so really what I'm asking the council now is to consider all options and make you know a business case and assessment that balances that community need with the need to reduce light pollution and protect wildlife, and really get that professional advice from the start on things like what I've now learned about, you know, soft or blue light, or how bright things should be, about I think your latest, your latest Posca socks about 2,500 Kelvin, I believe, if I remember.
Bill McGeeney:Yeah, usually, usually the the ask is 2,200. And then 2700 is kind of like. Okay, if we have to, 3000 is a little higher, but yeah.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, so specifically getting advice on those particular points is really what I'm asking the council, because I can't be expected to know all of this I'm a resident, you know but also things like Well, you'll be shocked.
Bill McGeeney:They probably don't know any of it.
Jennifer Huygen:So that's the ask is to get those experts in law from the start. You know how long they should go on, whether there should be motion sensors, everything. You know all the different options. And then what I'm working on now with the council is then looking into okay, informing and testing. You know, pulling together a group of consultees. So it will be people who supported the petition, because the petition was supported by community organizations. So Cycling UK, steve Finnege, the local branch, supported the petition. We got two local running clubs who supported the petition. We have local businesses who supported as well because of the or because of their workers. We'd love to get schools involved as well. You know families and young people to get involved.
Jennifer Huygen:But also there are some statutory consultees that the council needs to look at. So they need to involve the wildlife trust from the start. They need to involve the police from. You know, from a community safety point of view as well, they need to consult those. And then the other thing that we're asking is look into Research has been done around how kind of lighting affects accessibility, for cycling specifically, but also for parks and green spaces, and one of the things that I've found is there has been research into cycling participation, and that has shown that a minimal amount of lighting can actually significantly increase in the uptake of cycling. And there's actually a point where, if you do any more lighting that you know, the impact on participation is like negligible. So why would we? And that's the kind of considerations that I want the council to look at.
Bill McGeeney:Jen, that's great to hear. I've always thought that. So I never actually looked it up, but I've always thought that just going around, because here we have we have major thoroughfares, I have 4,000 Kelvin lighting and they're very bright and the brightness level it lulls you into a daytime malaise and I don't know if that makes sense, you as a biker, but like in the daytime malaise, you're kind of going through and you're kind of like you're not, like you're not really actively paying attention as much as you would if it was, if it was dusk right, when you're forced to pay much more attention. And if you keep the light level low, then you have more visibility and you can also still use your, your bike light for the purpose it serves. And then when that other light comes out, you it's not going to blind you as much and in addition you are able to gain more domain awareness because your eye, right, your eye, is better adapted at that point.
Bill McGeeney:Then when you go from a bright 4,000, which is essentially almost it's close to a white light when you go from a bright one like that into immediate area where there's no lights, and then you have time, there's a time delay right For your eye to catch up and I think that's a that's a really good point. So I guess one of the questions I have on that would it be okay, Would you be open, if they came back and said hey, you know what we like this, We'll put on lights, but we're going to shut them off at 9pm. Is that acceptable?
Jennifer Huygen:It's really difficult to say now, to be honest, because, on the one hand, you know, you can say you know yes, of course, because you know it will protect it will protect wildlife and it will reduce that you know light pollution level.
Jennifer Huygen:But I think there needs to be a really strong rationale for that, and it needs to be.
Jennifer Huygen:I wouldn't say yes or no at this point, to be honest with you, because I know that there are commuters that have to use the park around midnight to get home. So what about you know what about them? And we really do need to consider those people as well. And so what I would ask the council to do, and as part of their assessment, is look at well, actually look at it also from a climate change perspective, because we want people to adopt lower carbon lifestyles is what they call it, what they call it here. So that means actually, you know, using more active travel like walking, cycling, wheeling or using public transport as well. So, actually, if we reduce the our you know dependency on cars that have that much light pollution as well, and you know our dependency on those other main roads where we can then reduce lighting, actually will that not be a greater benefit than keeping those lights on. That are very well thought through for the park for longer. You know what are the impacts there.
Bill McGeeney:Would you be fine Any cut off time?
Jennifer Huygen:If there's a business, if there's a case for it, if we get a very clear recommendation back to say, actually from a wildlife perspective you shouldn't keep it on after this hour, and if that is in balance with what the potential impacts could be on the uptake of active travel. If that has been fully considered, then I will accept that recommendation. But I would always push for. You know, has this been a wider assessment of what a potential uptake could look like of our paths through the park, Because it's such an important route through our town?
Bill McGeeney:What about motion sensor lights?
Jennifer Huygen:I've seen them used, you know, successfully, so that could be part of the solution. I know that that's what the you know. I don't I mean not that in particular, but what I know the council is looking at at the moment is what types of lighting generally is available. And then through that, you know, through that consultation work that we will then do, is look at so what could work for all the different types of users and then look at you know it might be a combination of, you know, motion sensors and solar lighting or something else.
Bill McGeeney:Would you feel comfortable I?
Jennifer Huygen:don't know what.
Bill McGeeney:The perfect solution is Would you feel comfortable with the motion sensors?
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, I would be. I mean, as I said, if it's part of that considered approach and that considered assessment, then if that is the conclusion, then that is the conclusion. And I'm you know, I'm very conscious that even though I personally started this, started this request to the council, I don't want it to be about what I want. You know, I don't want the solution to be a reflection of this. Is Jen's perfect solution for the park. I don't, absolutely.
Jennifer Huygen:I would be the worst, that would be the worst outcome, because I now have 1300 people who signed this petition we received 1000 signatures in two weeks to the council to say go and consider this, and so the worst outcome would be to be a solution that I'm really, really happy with because it works for my specific circumstances, and then it doesn't work for the families who bring their children to dance classes that take place in the studio next to the cafe, for example. That would be terrible, and then they will continue to use their car because they don't feel safe to use the park. No, I wouldn't be happy with that. I hope that makes sense.
Bill McGeeney:No, that's fine. Yeah, are you looking specifically at lights that are going to be aimed at the bike path, or do you want to aim off trail or Really on the like it would be for the main path.
Jennifer Huygen:So, for example, but I mentioned earlier that there is a grasshopper area I'm not suggesting we light up that area, absolutely not. No, no, no. So what the petition very clearly said and stated because we had to be very specific in our request is along the main paths. So I'm not saying go and light up the play area at night. That's not what I'm saying. Ask, you know, light or not light up, but you know, provide lighting for the main paths. That's the request.
Bill McGeeney:And you're fine with any kind of with a lower color, with an amber color.
Jennifer Huygen:Oh, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. I actually don't really like billboards, so I'm not asking for floodlights or billboards. No, absolutely. And I've also read about what you just mentioned about you know pointing downwards as well and how important that is, and especially knowing that we have owls, for example, you know making sure that the light is pointed downwards, absolutely. And that's again that's why I said it's so important to do it from the start, with all those different considerations, so that you know, when the council's engineer comes back and says, oh great, we can have this floodlight and it will be high and it will light up the whole area, we can then say, no, I'm not saying he would, you know, I'm not saying he would do that. But to have all these considerations right out and open from the start will make us, hopefully, will hopefully help us prevent making the wrong decisions.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, yeah, that's. The lighting on the path can be done very easily with LEDs now, because LEDs can be aimed and targeted and some places have done a phenomenal job just lighting up the path and, like you said, you don't any light really for wilderness, for nature, any light is a pollutant and it's just like you know any right.
Bill McGeeney:So, taking that in consideration, especially owls man, it's always great to it's one of the most fun things here is like a screech out here where it has like a winnie and and when you're outside and just adds character to the night. So that's, that's great to hear. It's great to hear that you're you're really trying to interrogate the idea and trying to find the very equitable solution and I commend you on that. So I want to ask you about you now and how, how have you, how do you engage with the night? What do you do? Do you go just go out to dinner or do you go? Like, how do you engage? What's a typical way that you actually interact with a with night, which sounds weird? I understand that.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, no, it's, it's a good, you know, it's a good, it's a good question. So actually I think again it comes back to my original question to the council. I explained to them I'm lucky enough that I can work from home most of the days. I do travel, I do have to travel for work, but the majority of the time I work from home and that doesn't mean if I've been inside the house. You know, having meetings online and doing, you know, desk, desk-based work.
Jennifer Huygen:I would like to go out after I finish my day's work, but then autumn and winter gets dark, so early in my the time I finish, at five five 30 is dark and then I and even though I live literally five minutes away from Fairlands Valley Park, I would not feel comfortable going there by myself to go for a run after work, even though in summer, spring, that's what I would do.
Jennifer Huygen:So we, like my partner and I, we actually cycle a lot. We don't just cycle to go to and from work. So when I have to take the train, obviously I cycle to the train station. We actually use our bike for every day kind of every day kind of journeys. We go to supermarket. We, you know, we've got pen year bags on my bike as well. So you'll often see me, you know, with groceries, call me back and everything. So I would say I feel very comfortable going outside in the evenings and I do that on a very, you know, on a very regular, very regular basis. Sure, I have days where I don't want to go out and just, you know, crawl up on the sofa with a black tea and a cup of tea.
Bill McGeeney:Obviously, I have those days as well, days and nights. I won't do that. Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Huygen:Sure, yeah, Sure, I do have those, but it's about you know, it's. Yeah, there's a. There's a distinct difference to the how I perceive my activities in autumn and winter versus spring and summer, and I know that I'm not the only one in that experience.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, so I want to just quickly touch on the. You don't feel comfortable in a dark environment. And what do you think driveset? What do you think the source, the real, true, honest source is this driving net? I'm very curious. This is a very curious question I've always wanted I feel I'm not, I'm not like that. I love, I love the dark, I love being, I love night, I love being out there. So different, so much, so much anointing. It's very different, it's a very different experience. So I'm very curious.
Jennifer Huygen:Yeah, it's interesting, I think, as again how I explained it to the council. I said it very much from my perspective as a woman. As a woman, I do not feel safe being by myself out in the dark, especially in a park, and I know that a lot of women and young and young girls have that experience as well. So, for example, fairlands Valley Park they are a recognized green flag awards winner, which is like a national scheme in the UK and for well-managed, for well-managed parks, they have guidance, they have research available and that shows that actually Sexual harassment in public space has actually affects 71% of women in the UK and that Rises to 86% for women between 18 and 24 years old.
Jennifer Huygen:That's not to say that you know Everyone has had that specific experience, but you will know someone potentially who has. You will know that this happens and therefore you just do not want to take the risk. You just you know there's there's this sport England in England Explains this very well. They have a campaign, it's called this girl camp and they last winter they launched this new campaign about Lift the curfew. It's like women and girls they put this own curfew, potentially on themselves, because they don't feel safe because of their experience within Modern day society.
Bill McGeeney:Why do you feel safer during the day than at night? Is there more harassment that goes on at night?
Jennifer Huygen:No, I know this is don't show that there's more harassment at night than during the day is actually it's actually the other way around. But actually when you look at, you know some of the guidance in terms of how you can make green spaces and Parks, in particular, more accessible. Actually, it does say having more people there will increase that perception of of safety and you know, having people around you and not being the only one will actually Help people feel safer, including women, and women and girls.
Bill McGeeney:Okay. So is it feeling of safety through it? Because during the daytime, which I feel like is much more unsafe than night, especially my experiences during daytime, seen a lot of stuff I've been victim of. At least one thing is it. Is it something, is it rational To be very comfortable during daytime and Not comfortable? And I guess I'm just trying to drill down on what the source, what's the source? Drivers, where is that? Why is it Way more acceptable to be afraid at night Than during a daytime?
Jennifer Huygen:I Wouldn't say it's more acceptable. You know, in that sense, you know I. What I would say is what you know, the fact remains is that women and girls, but also men and boys, you know, because I've had, you know men and, and you know, and younger men and not boys, because you have to be 16 to sign a petition. But you know to, you know I've had them support the petition as well. But you know, the fact remains, we know that Women and young girls what we were talking about feel unsafe in these environments and whether that is a rational fear, not based on, you know, crime statistics really To, in my opinion, doesn't really matter in this, in this, you know, in this position, because we have very clearly identified a needs and a concern that society needs to address, because I don't, I don't think it is acceptable that women and girls feel that way and therefore the least we can do is, you know, accommodate this, this concern, and to mitigate it to the best we can.
Jennifer Huygen:Now, I'm not saying that lighting will fix all of. That is not a, it's not a magical solution. They're, you know, stubborn inequalities, I think, generally in society that will need to be addressed. The lighting goes a long way to Actually providing that space for women and girls to be more active and that will obviously, you know, also encourage other people to use the park and, in this particular instance, that will help with accessibility and inclusive accessibility and inclusivity of the park as well. So, yeah, it's not fair that things that you know, that these things happen to women and girls and fear is their natural response. So, yeah, I hope that clarifies a little bit.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, I've got one last question here. So night is pretty much in danger to happen today. We're doing everything we can to get rid of it, and you know I often joke with people. Like we can, we can go inside, close the shade and go to bed and light up everything around us like maximum security prison. But animals, insects, anything in the environment cannot. They have to live. Plants even plants are Effective by. They have to live in these environments. So, going forward, what do you think we can do to limit our impact on night ecosystems while at the same time providing that feeling of safety?
Jennifer Huygen:Right. So I think there's two things here. The first of all is education, and that's what I'm really trying to do, you know, with the petition. When we're looking, when we're looking at what kind of lighting options would be suitable for Fairlands Valley Park is really taking into the advice from experts, also looking at developments in technologies as well and really optimally using that and being very open and honest about that with the public as well. Like you know, oh, your request was for lighting you might expect is really bright, cool, cool as in the color, cool, not awesome. Yeah.
Bill McGeeney:I got.
Jennifer Huygen:You know, you know cool lights in the in the park, but actually we have installed these lights because of XYZ Reasons, because these were all of our all of our considerations. So I think that's really important. When you know we use this as an opportunity to educate, you know, everyone involved, and including people who weren't involved with the petitioners. This is why we've done it, and this is also what you can do at home, for example, when you want to reduce like pollution and when you want to make environments more Eco-friendly really. And I think the second part is to really listen to the people who currently feel excluded and to realize that and respect that people have different experiences and those experiences are valid. And even if you know, if, if fear is a response, then that is not something is not as easy to say like well, grow a thicker skin, for example. You know that's. That's not a respectable way, a respectful way to Respond to these concerns. And actually it is talking about Well understanding why is that fear there and how can we mitigate some of that fear, and lighting will help Mitigate some of that fear in this instance. And and then the third thing out that sorry I know I only said two things.
Jennifer Huygen:But the third thing I would say is you know your description. You said. You said like oh, you know, we can look ourselves inside. I don't think that's the solution. I want people to be able to go outside and enjoy it, because the biggest threat at the moment is climate change and For us that for everyone to take action is to have that appreciation for our natural world, and we can only do that when we actually go outside and enjoy it. So that's really what I would say to people as well.
Bill McGeeney:Okay, well, great. Well, my guest today has been Jennifer Hawken. We can I get it right this time? How can there we go? Thank you so much for coming on today. Really appreciate it, and I will have your petition link up in our show notes If anyone wants to check out the petition itself. And Jennifer, have a great rest of your day, thank you.
Jennifer Huygen:Thank you very much for having me.