January 2025: .02 Microwatts!

This month, host Bill McGeeney is joined by Dr. Mario Motta, lighting designer Glenn Heinmiller, and, advocate, David Lefevre!

See Full Show Notes, Lighting Tips and more at LightPollutionNews.com. Like this episode, share it with a friend!

Bill's Picks:

• Here are 5 major threats to Ireland's remaining dark skies, George McMillan, RTE. 
• Young People Are Losing Their Cultural Heritage to Light Pollution, Paige Cromley, Sierra. 
• Rethinking Occasional Outdoor Lighting: A Kinder, Gentler, More Nature-Friendly Glow, Kendra Wilson, Gardenista. 
• Brighter nights and darker days predict higher mortality risk: A prospective analysis of personal light exposure in >88,000 individuals, PNAS. 

Chapters

• 10:19 Sharing Insights on Light Pollution
• 19:09 Global Efforts to Reduce Light Pollution
• 27:12 Urban Growth vs. Dark Sky Preservation
• 35:45 Effects of Artificial Light on Health
• 41:30 Melatonin, Light Pollution, and Cancer
• 48:27 Impact of Artificial Light on Health
• 58:07 Stay Updated on Light Pollution News

Transcript

Bill McGeeney: 0:06

light pollution news january 2025.02. Microwatts today. What should we make of all these health studies? Lucky for us, we have dr mario mata on board to walk us through the recent health news. And do we have a shifting baseline problem when it comes to darkness? To help answer this question and many more, we welcome advocate david lafarver and lighting professional Glenn Heimiller. It's time for our new light pollution news. Here we go, starting the first Light Pollution News of 2025.

Bill McGeeney: 0:56

I'm your host, bill McGeaney, very glad to have you joining us as we look at the news relating to this impactful cultural and environmental topic of light pollution. If you're new to the show, light Pollution News is a twice-monthly show where I bring on three guests to help walk through each month's news. And light pollution, of course, isn't just SkyGlo but has many other facets, including those that will be touched in the news on both episodes today. Light Pollution News aims to build engagement and conversation around these topics while further growing awareness to the issues at hand. As you, the listener settles in. If you like what you're hearing, why not consider becoming a supporter? Supporters help us grow the show's reach capacity. As a reminder, we're 100% listener supported. So if you like what the show is doing. You like what it's about. You like the information and learning from it. Why not consider being a supporter by following the link in the show notes? Also, if you aren't aware, we have a mailing list. Each month, we send out the top news items we come across. Newsletter recipients receive access to both monthly shows at once, and if you're a supporter, you'll receive a link to all of the news articles that we pulled for that month, including many of the ones that didn't make the cut. Oh, and did I forget to mention that show supporters are invited each and every regular episode to actually sit in as a live audience member. So there you have it. You can learn more by either clicking the links in the show notes or by heading over to lightpollutionnewscom and, as is always the case, if you're not subscribed to Light Pollution News, over to lightpollutionnewscom. And, as is always the case, if you're not subscribed to Light Pollution News, now slam that button down on whatever platform that you're listening to this podcast from, and why not chime in with your thoughts on LinkedIn, instagram, tiktok or Facebook? We create shareable material for you listeners, so hopefully that helps you spread the word about some issues that you find interesting and important in a topic of light pollution. Lastly, before we kick things off, I have some listener mail that I'll get to at the end of the show, so definitely stay put to the very end. If you'd like your feedback right on the show, feel free to shoot over your thoughts via either the text link in the show notes or to bill at lightpollutionnewscom. Happy new year to you at home.

Bill McGeeney: 3:03

Welcome to our third year of light pollution news. As always, I have an excellent slate of guests, which I'm very excited to start off the new year with. This is a really well-rounded panel, I think, and I think you at home are really going to enjoy this January slate of episodes. Let's kick things off with our first guest, david Laferre. David, I'm very excited to have you on board. You're a Dark Sky advocate who you created a very informative website, and this is how we initially communicated. You shared this website rolymonletoileeu, and I want to have the emphasis on eu, so it's rolymonletoileeu because the fr site is apparently a porn site. Don't go there. Whatever you do, don't go to that one.

David Lefevre: 3:48

I didn't know that.

Bill McGeeney: 3:51

So if you're looking, it's a dot eu is what you're looking for, but it's a great website full of a lot of great information, and you you really present an argument on why you want to protect the sky. So why don't you tell me what got you kind of into this? Why did you decide that this was an important topic?

David Lefevre: 4:09

Oh, so well, why did I create it? In fact, five years ago I've seen a meeting, a public meeting, where people were explaining the light pollution and what it was about, what was the problem with it, and in fact, at this time I didn't know the problem. But I've discovered it and I found it very interesting. And the most striking about this kind of pollution is that nobody's aware of it. Many people know about plastic, about chemicals, about a lot of things, but light pollution it's completely off the radar.

David Lefevre: 4:48

So I've joined some people here in France to make awareness about this problem, about the light pollution, and to give some conferences to city councils, to public people, to city councils, to public people, to have some information about it and be able to act about this problem. And the most common fact I've seen, discovered in these meetings, is that, in fact, either the public people or just the people do not know what is light pollution and all the impacts it has, because it goes from the health to the economy, to the energy, to the astronomy. There are a lot of different things and people do not know about it. So I've decided to create this website. So at first the initial version was in french, obviously, because I am. But to spread the word across the borders, I've decided to translate it in several languages. So at the moment, eight languages different are available, so you can pick your own and learn about light pollution you hand translate these no, oh okay, right, so I'm speaking, obviously, french.

David Lefevre: 6:13

I'm picking two other languages, which are english, obviously, because I am doing it right now and russian. I had some German language memories from when I was at school, so I've tried to do some parts manually, but in fact it takes a huge amount of time doing all this. So I confess I used automatic translators to help me in that task, to help me in that task, but I know some people in each language and I've asked them to read and tell me if it was correct or just nonsense. And I was quite surprised because all of the returns I had was hmm, that's not bad.

Bill McGeeney: 7:04

Yeah, I mean there's no shame. I completely understand what you're trying to do there. Good for you, that's great. I like how you're trying to really cater to maybe different audiences right there off the bat Before we switch over to the next guest. I know in France you guys have actually had several instances of communities actually turning off the lights and then becoming even more innovative by having, say, phone apps to turn on street lights and turn off street lights. I haven't heard about that anywhere else in the world yeah, it exists.

David Lefevre: 7:40

Yes, so we have a main main advantage, I would say, compared to other countries. And disadvantage is that we have a law about lights at night. So for shops, for private lightnings I mean commercial like there is a law that states when what kind of light you must have or you mustn't have, and a lot of specificities. And these facts give us an advantage. I mean, it's not a competition, but it's an advantage to talk to people and say hey look, we are doing something and it's mandatory because this is a law, so you cannot escape. You cannot do only what you want. You mandatory because this is a law, so you cannot escape. You cannot do only what you want. You have to stick to the law. So this is something great we have in France and I hope it will spread across other countries. I'm working with someone in the European Parliament to have this kind of ID spread across several countries and I hope it will be dispatched in other countries as well.

Bill McGeeney: 8:51

What's the reception been in France to it for, say, the average person living in a major urban center?

David Lefevre: 8:55

At first. This is quite the same, always the same. When I talk to people about it, the first reaction everybody has is no, you don't, you cannot think about that in the dark, it's dangerous. And so each time I need to dig I don't know to crawl, to fight to make them understand that, in fact, we have lost the night, we have lost the ideas of the night, and for now a century, we are used to light, but it was not like this before, and humans are not made to be in the light, always in the light. So it's, yeah, the the same, the same behavior I met each time I talked to people, whatever they are to people about this subject. It's oh, no, you cannot think about it. And when I talk about the different aspects, the several impacts, they try to understand and little by little, they're okay. So that's not a bad idea, in fact.

Bill McGeeney: 10:05

Well, god you're, you're gonna have to give me the script what what I need to use when I'm talking to people sure I'm pleased to share.

David Lefevre: 10:13

That's why I've made the website is to share information, just a little thing. At first I wanted to convince people that having no lights at night was a great thing, and I've given up because convincing people, it asks an amount of energy which is far behind my possibilities. So I've given up on this point. So I switched to OK, I give you some awareness, I give you some ideas about what it does, how it works, and then it will make your way in your brain and I'm pretty sure at the end you will agree that we should shut the lights at night, but convince people no.

Bill McGeeney: 10:59

Or at the very least, to have some kind of responsible use of it right. I mean, at the end of the day, you know we're're gonna need light at night. We we need it for certain things. I've always thought of it. If you think of it as a typical pollutant, you'll have a better approach to managing it, to using it right exactly.

David Lefevre: 11:16

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, people now are used to have lights and sometimes they're discussing with people. I know, but you don't think about switching off the public light at night. When I go home at night, I can't see the lock on my door. Okay, but just take your own light, put a light just above your door. I don't know, but don't take it as an excuse. You don't see anything to say. The public light has to be switched on, be switched on all night long. It's just a nonsense. But it's a. It's a lot of discussion with people. It's a. It's a long process.

David Lefevre: 11:51

It's a it's quite not really difficult to make them understand, but it's quite long to make them understand yeah, well, someone who's been working on that.

Bill McGeeney: 11:59

Next up we have glenn highmiller, and glenn clums comes to us today from the lighting design firm lamb partners. Am I saying that right, lamb, not lam? Okay, and glenn, you've worked on lighting solutions for a myriad of clients, including research facilities, athletic venues, schools, parks, performing arts centers and much more. And, glenn, you chair the IALD Energy and Sustainability Committee and are a LEED-accredited professional, and you're also a USGBC subject matter expert. Glenn, welcome to Light Pollution News. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you and we'll go from there?

Glenn Heinmiller: 12:37

I've been involved with lighting since high school, but lighting design in the architectural world was sort of my second career, after doing lighting in the entertainment world and was that for like for shows for?

Glenn Heinmiller: 12:50

you know we don't have time. Okay, sorry, but that's all another story. But I, my first job in in in architectural lighting was with land partners, and land partners was founded by it's it's a name. So you asked about it's an acronym. It's not an acronym, it's a name William MC Lamb, one of the sort of founders of the, the profession of architectural lighting design, and it's interesting because and so I was sort of learned he had just retired but I was learning his philosophy and his approach and which was basically you know you can read it in his book Like you put the light where you need it, you light the things that people need to see and you don't waste the light, putting it where people don't need to see, you don't put glare in their face so they can see better. He wrote a whole book about basically trying to understand human visual perception and how lighting in our interior and exterior environments could support. You know good vision and so I might.

Glenn Heinmiller: 13:51

Maybe I was five or some years into the career, early 2000s, and I'd also had a child very interested in astronomy and space exploration. I ran before there were websites. I ran an AOL site about space exploration. I ran before there were websites. I ran an AOL site about space exploration, so I had that interest too, and then I think it was I don't know, it might've been being in Massachusetts. It's an area where there's historically a very strong dark sky community, a few key people like Kelly Beatty and Mario and stuff who've been at this for like decades.

Glenn Heinmiller: 14:21

I probably went to a presentation at Kelly Beatty's about light pollution decades. I probably went to a presentation at Kelly Beatty's about light pollution or I remember the dark sky conference was in Boston and Dave Crawford was running that thing and it was like, you know, much smaller organization, everything. And I went to the conference because I was just interested in the topic and I think that was the beginning. And then I said, okay, how can I, you know, make this part of my work people about light pollution and that where I really got into is the regulatory aspects and how can we develop standards and regulations that will control light pollution and, you know, basically educate my profession about you know how to do things right.

Bill McGeeney: 14:57

So yeah, how's that been? How's your profession been taken to it?

Glenn Heinmiller: 15:02

well, I mean, it's been a long, it's been a long process, but I well, there's sort of two pieces to the lighting industry. I mean, you know, there's the, the, the specifiers, like me, and then there's the manufacturers of the equipment and they're both, you know, very influential in terms of what happens, what gets installed. And I think that with the oddly, even though the model lighting ordinance didn't have was not adopted widely, it did. It did include the bug rating system, and what happened is we got that into the lead. People on the lead is the sustainable green building design standards that started about 20 years ago but really is, is is very powerful, in north America at least, in building design, and so that went into it. And so that meant that the architecture community, design community, building construction community because I lead light pollution credit in there everybody got to say, oh, this is a thing you know, this is a thing I have to think about, and so that was big.

Glenn Heinmiller: 16:01

And but, even more recently, what's really really been exciting to me is, in the last couple of years, almost just coming out of the pandemic, there are people within the lighting industry designers, researchers, manufacturers who are not just saying, oh, okay, this is something I have to do. They're they're involved with research, they're involved with, I mean, the whole thing that's going on. I'm on the Outdoor and Night Time Environments Committee, the IES, and the work coming out of that committee in terms of standards they're all around you know. Basically light pollution control and still providing good lighting for people's needs, and it's been revolutionary. The last couple of lighting conferences I've gone to there have been like two, three presentations by lighting professionals about light pollution Not Mario, not Kelly, not David, but lighting people and it's just really cool and sometimes really crazy technical stuff talking about color temperature and how we can get LED chips with less short wavelength light but better color rendition. It's just, it's very exciting Anyhow. So that's it.

Bill McGeeney: 17:08

That's a very optimistic way to start 2025. I like hearing about that.

Glenn Heinmiller: 17:12

And the manufacturers too. I mean, I don't know if Mario knows, there's a sales rep who actually Jane Slade, who lives around here. She was actually a student of mine when I taught lighting design, but she now works in sales. She was actually a student of mine when I taught lighting design, but she now works in sales and she's a super dark sky advocate and she sells outdoor lighting fixtures. It's very interesting to see this happening.

Bill McGeeney: 17:33

Anyhow, oh, that's great. Good to hear All right Last up, certainly not least, and someone who very hinted at this afternoon. So let's welcome Dr Mario Mata Mario, you're retired, 39 years at North Shore Medical Center up in Salem, Massachusetts. You have numerous accomplishments as a past president of the Massachusetts Medical Society, served on the Council of Science and Public Health for eight years in the American Medical Association, served a four-year stint on the Board of Trustees in the American Medical Association. Served a four-year stint on the Board of Trustees for the American Medical Association. However, with all the medical honors you received, I don't think some folks, at least I wasn't quite as familiar with your other end, the side of work you did in the amateur astronomy world, including an asteroid 133-537, Mary Omada International Astronomical Union awarded designation. Honestly, your CV on the amateur astronomer side is every bit as impressive and daunting from one amateur astronomer to another. Mary, I think we need a podcast to talk about that. But welcome to the show. I appreciate the ring. It was an M54.

Mario Motta: 18:44

I forget what designation that is back there right behind you oh yeah, that's an image I took actually with my own telescope.

Bill McGeeney: 18:51

Yeah, that looks great okay, so typically I will have the guests kind of go through, kind of what they're working on, and I'll split it up. But glenn or david, if you want to take the, you know, take a swing out of here in the beginning and then I'll have Mario, we can do you for the beginning of the second show.

David Lefevre: 19:09

I'm interested in what Glenn was saying a little bit before, talking about salespeople which are promoting the light pollution problem and not selling anything, because I've seen this in france. There are a lot of companies which sell lights for outdoor light and obviously people doesn't know anything about the characteristics of these lights, so they sell nonsense. In fact, they just sell lights to have some light outside and whatever the color temperature, whatever the amount of lumens you have on this light, they just sell, they just sell. They just sell and this is an aspect I didn't address for the moment which are the shops and vendors of lights, because I'm on my own for the moment, but I hope I will address this topic. But it's great to hear that in other places on the planet people are starting to think about it, Even the people involved in selling lights. They are just getting the right light for put outside and not everything that they can sell.

Glenn Heinmiller: 20:24

So that's great what you've described, which is basically just poor lighting being installed. It's rampant. It's still very rampant in the country because most lighting the outdoor lighting there's no knowledgeable lighting expert person who's responsible for that. It's basically, you know, an electrician goes to his lighting supplier and says give me a floodlight, because I got to my. My client wants to light up their parking lot, you know, and so I think that it's, but it's a matter of education.

Glenn Heinmiller: 20:58

So I think you know, I say people, most light pollution is, is not malicious, you know it's, it's, it's just ignorance. And when you tell people like, hey, you know if you pointed that fixture down or if you turned that, you know, whatever, they go like oh okay, I didn't realize. So I think it's happening Like there's this program, dlc Luna program, which is on a rating system for products which they're sort of, you know, dark sky, and I think what happens is when, when that starts going out, the manufacturers start to promote the quality products. Right, it's something they can sell. And that's what I've been trying to tell the manufacturers is like you know, you can sell this. This is, this isn't a burden on you, this is like this is you, this is the opportunity.

Mario Motta: 21:46

Indeed, yes, Glenn and I are old friends and he's one of the good guys. I appreciate knowing him and David. I just came back from New Zealand. I was a keynote speaker at the Starlight Conference and was happy to be there. In Lake Takapo there were 40 countries represented and 130 people. Like Takapo, there were 40 countries represented and 130 people. But what impressed me was a European Union lawyer who presented light pollution in Europe and she stated that France recently passed a light pollution law that they want to not just limit light pollution but cut it in half over the next 10 years. Is that true? That's an amazing accomplishment. You should talk about that a bit more.

David Lefevre: 22:30

It's not done for the moment, but it's in the plans. Yeah, there is some deciding people at the government which are aware of the problem and realize that we should do something. No, no, we shouldn't. We have to do something about it. One big thing that has changed people's minds here locally, unfortunately, is the price of electricity.

David Lefevre: 23:01

In France, we have 11 million lights at night outside, for the public lights I'm not talking about the private people who put some light in the garden but to enlighten the roads, to enlighten the parking and things like this. We have 11 millions of lights. Due to the war, the last war between Russia and Ukraine, the price of energy has skyrocketed and unfortunately I'm saying unfortunately because it's a reason For me it's not the right one, but it's a reason and people are saying seeing that it's a lot of money and they have to do some savings somewhere Anyhow. So, yes, there is a will to reduce this and maybe because, also, we are more and more people in France talking about this problem and giving some awareness to people, deciders are slightly, slowly, smoothly, coming to this idea. So it's in the plans.

David Lefevre: 24:07

Yeah, it's not done. I don't know in other countries, but in France to establish a new law. It takes years and there is an S at the end of years. Usually it's yeah. It can be between two and many, many. So the idea is to get the light pollution into yeah.

Mario Motta: 24:28

Well, I consider that an amazing accomplishment. I wish you well. That would be basically a beacon for the rest of the world to follow. I know the Czech Republic under Pavel, former premier, some years ago made it a country law that all lights in the Czech Republic are fully shielded to limit light pollution. But I think this is the first time I've heard of a country that actually wants to cut it down from current levels. So I hope that idea spreads. I mean, in the US it's state by state and we go from extremely light polluted areas like Florida, where the lighting company there seems to revel in putting up light everywhere needlessly, to places like New Hampshire where basically people are cheap and they don't put up lights on the roads, and the accident rate in New Hampshire is one of the lowest in the country. So there are lessons to be learned.

David Lefevre: 25:24

So there are lessons to be learned. Indeed, there are lessons to be learned, and it's good to hear from people that in, I would say, dark places there are less and at least no more accidents where the places are enlightened. This is something we have seen. Obviously there is an event we have seen. Obviously there is an event.

David Lefevre: 25:49

I'm living in the south of france, near switzerland, near geneva, and the lake, the geneva lake, which was really known 40 years ago with deep purple, the smoke on the water song is a story about this place and once a year, every city around the lake is switching the light off all at the same time, one night a year. It's to to make some awareness to people and at this time, at this night, obviously we've been interested in the number of accidents and numbers of problems we can have during this time and and in fact, no more than when the light is on, no more and even a little bit better, because there were some accidents. Of course, it's not zero, let's be honest, but the accidents were how could I say were less harmful to people, because people are driving slower, so the accidents are less dangerous.

Mario Motta: 26:48

Yeah, well, not just that. I mean the English have produced numerous studies, which I got in my files now, where they've cut down shielded lighting and made lighting as needed with motion detectors on the streets, and they found that the accident rate has gone down on the streets and they found that the accident rate has gone down. So it's clear that may be the cause of most accidents, not the absence of lights.

David Lefevre: 27:12

You know there is a little story. I've lived during some little conference I have given in a city not far from here and there was a young guy asking me why we did we did want to such switch the light off, and I was surprised. I asked him why do you want the lights on? And he answered me with a real confidence. He told me but when the lights are on I can go faster with my scooter, otherwise I don't see anything and I have to go slower. Okay, great point. He was kind of annoyed about these lights off because he couldn't go as fast as he wanted. That's just the point.

Bill McGeeney: 28:04

Yeah, there's truth there. It's definitely truth there and, and you know, I think you guys hit on a good point. I got this article from rte and I'm curious because I think it really fits into conversation, especially you, mario, down there in florida, which I know passed the law that requires all part of the massachusetts.

Bill McGeeney: 28:22

I just go there for a few months a year well I know in florida, the, they pass the a law to have apartments have mandatory exterior lighting in all walkways, parking lots and other areas where any human might be walking around. This one comes from the five major threats to Ireland's remaining dark skies. The article lists some of the usual suspects, including satellite mega constellations, irresponsibly bright or bluish LEDs, the incentive, when you're using cheap lighting, not to practice or exhibit any kind of responsibility with such lighting. But the article also discussed one additional item that I think may be more pressing than the others, and you're welcome to disagree with me on that. However, what it references is something called shifting baseline syndrome, whereby people simply never experience darkness, therefore don't really have a reason to protect it right. This is something that was also pointed out in an article from Sierra, which they corroborated a very same narrative, but it was written by a self-described, gen Zer. Is there a shifting baseline problem?

Mario Motta: 29:25

Yes, 80,. 90% of the people in the US live on the light-polluted skies and have no idea what a truly dark sky looks like.

Bill McGeeney: 29:34

What should we do? How do we fix that?

Glenn Heinmiller: 29:36

Get people out. I like the way you answered that. I would say like I think it's even worse than than because for myself. First, I grew up somewhere where I could see the Milky Way. It was. It was in upstate New York. It was in the suburbs near the city, but it was dark and that was to me that was just normal. Right, you can see the start, but the fact is I've lived in the city for 40 plus years and I don't really miss it. You know what I mean. I mean it's sad but I've gotten used to. So even someone who grew up being able to see the Milky Way has gotten used to not being able to see it. And it doesn't really. You know, it's too bad. I don't really miss it. It's not a big deal in my life. There are a lot of other issues.

Bill McGeeney: 30:25

Glenn, I miss it.

Glenn Heinmiller: 30:27

I mean I live in a portal eight, nine, I mean I I miss it, but I don't it's not like a huge loss, you know it doesn't make. I mean how do we, how do we fix it? I don't know, because you know, I mean this idea that in france they might try to actually reduce the amount of outdoor lighting. I think we rough. I don't know how you do that here in the cities.

Mario Motta: 30:49

I mean, I think you do it by education.

Glenn Heinmiller: 30:51

You can see the milk.

Mario Motta: 30:53

Many studies that show removing lights actually decreases accident rates. I mean, it's not a major difference within statistical variation but if anything, the trend is to lower accidents than more accidents with highlights. And that's probably because of glare issues, in my opinion, but I don't know exactly the reason why. But there's certainly no good evidence that putting up more lights either decreases accidents or decreases crime rate. If anything, the evidence is the other way.

Glenn Heinmiller: 31:33

Right, but growth, so growth of our urban areas is happening and it's going to continue to happen, mostly, and so we can have intelligent growth rather than haphazard growth.

Glenn Heinmiller: 31:39

That's where the work is to be done, right, I mean it is where the new lighting is going in. I mean it is where the new lighting is going in. We may never see the Milky Way in downtown Boston ever, but at least if I go, maybe if I go 20 miles out, I will be able to. You know, and I think it's there's sort of this in between the dark sky reserve and the heavily polluted urban core, I think, where the real work is to be done. Yeah, but not that we give up on the urban core.

Bill McGeeney: 32:09

Glenn, I want to ask you this question. I asked this to Michael Reimer in our holiday episode what's a realistic portal to strive for? Is that four or five, six? What's a realistic portal that Dark Sky approach should try and strive for?

Glenn Heinmiller: 32:26

I don't know. Mario could answer.

Mario Motta: 32:30

Well, I've been measuring my sky in Gloucester since I moved here 20 years ago. It used to be a Bortle 4 to 4.2. It's now 4.6. And the only reason it is in 5 or 6 is because, in 2010, the mayor of Gloucester asked me to be on an energy committee and we managed to convince the town to put up fully shielded lights, only because they want to convert to leds and all the lights are fully shielded and not over lit. So, and even the new shopping center went in they had to follow that law and it barely has changed my sky, which is amazing compared to other cities where those become huge light domes.

Mario Motta: 33:12

So it is possible with proper planning, proper city bylaws and good education and a town that's committed to the environment. But again, that's all a matter of education. So I wouldn't be so pessimistic, glenn. I'm actually more hopeful than I was years ago when places like France want to cut it down, when many states are now considering cutting light pollution down because of excessive energy use, and I think all we have to do is to prove the point that more lighting does not mean less crime or less accidents. If anything, all the studies, every study I've looked at, shows it's exactly the opposite or no effect. So there's a mindset out there in many towns well, we have to put up lights for security, we have to put up lights for safety, we have to put up lights for this and that. And all your assumptions are just that, assumptions not based in reality.

Bill McGeeney: 34:13

Dr Vada, how do you balance that with the feelings that individual citizens or denizens have Well?

Mario Motta: 34:22

it's again a matter of education. I'll give an example. Many of my talks I discuss the function of the human eye and how the lens starts to form microcalcifications, usually in the mid-40s, and then over the years that in some can coalesce into a cataract. That's inevitable. 99% of us have microcalcifications after age 45. Blue light scatters off that, just like it scatters in the atmosphere. That's why the sun is red when it sets. All the blue has scattered.

Mario Motta: 34:54

Well, numerous studies on cadaver eyes of humans have shown the exact same thing. Blue scatters 10 times more than red light and about five or six times more than green and yellow light. Consequently, the reason why many elderly people can't drive at night. I tell them it's not just that your eyes are getting older, it's. We have bad engineers out there putting up bad lights and it would be greatly mitigated if, with a simple concept, don't overlight and make sure the lights are shielded. Any photon that hits your eye directly from a lamppost actually decreases your vision and makes you unable to drive. It doesn't have to be that way, that's good points.

Bill McGeeney: 35:41

I want to just kind of get through some of these health-related ones here, though, since we're here. The study out of communications biology suggests that circadian disruption may influence the propensity of someone to develop autism. The study looked at two sets of mice. One set experienced a shortened day of 8 hours of light and dark and the other experienced 12 hours of light and dark, and the short-day mice appeared to be less sociable and more interested in repeating behaviors such as marble burying and grooming, and they had weaker cognitive learning and increased anxiety. In fact, the short-day mice experienced brain alterations in several regions.

Bill McGeeney: 36:20

There's a study in European Journal of Public Health that found dementia risks increased for people exposed to artificial light at night. The study looked at the location histories of 53 Italian subjects, of which 34 of them contracted dementia. The location histories were compared against satellite data to identify the estimated range of the artificial light at night. The risk level appeared to increase with the generalized outdoor light at night levels. All subjects had a form of mild cognitive impairment. Staying in the European Journal of Public Health, another study assessed how artificial light at night in residential neighborhoods affected the risk of congenital glaucoma in newborn babies. Using satellite data, researchers looked at generalized light levels at night of the mother's neighborhood, compared that to births between 2008 and 2011 in urban South Korea via the National Health Insurance Database. Findings conclude that more research is needed, but the initial results indicate that artificial light at night impacts expecting mothers and heightens the risk of congenital glaucoma.

Bill McGeeney: 37:33

From scientific reports, a group in China looked at over 10,000 adults age 45 and older across 150 different sites in China. Researchers aimed to see if areas were experiencing generalized light pollution and had any associated risks involving their lipid metabolism. In this case, higher levels of generalized light at night appeared to line up with higher levels of bad cholesterol, ldl, and lower levels of good cholesterol, hdl, and with those living in higher levels of light pollution associating to 20% chance of abnormal blood lipid levels. We have a study that looked at how artificial light at night affected the metabolism of adult male sleeping rats, and the study in the Dutzy Journal of Pure and Applied Sciences found that the rats had slower metabolisms and higher fasting blood sugar levels. Lastly, the study this shouldn't really be much of a surprise, as we definitely have tried our best to engineer night out of cities.

Bill McGeeney: 38:36

An article in the Journal of the American Medical Association Network asked hey is that exposure to artificial light at night associated with an increased risk in insomnia, and the study used satellite imagery to assess generalized light levels of light pollution in 336 Chinese cities and, interestingly, it looked at over 1 million insomnia-related social media posts. The findings hint that artificial light at night may play a role identifying a trend with overall brightness and increased incidences of insomnia postings. And increased incidences of insomnia postings Not surprising. Insomnia also carried in association with extreme temperatures and bad air pollution, and we'll finish up the health-related items here with this last one from Georgia State University. Some researchers looked at a myriad of child development factors. One of the factors was nighttime brightness, which found that places with more light at night and more buildings tended to house parents with lower levels of education and income, versus with more trees and plants that tended to have were linked to higher levels of education income. Probably nothing too groundbreaking there, dr Amato. How do we take some of these studies that are using satellite imagery?

Mario Motta: 39:53

First of all, some of the studies you cited have low numbers and others have large numbers. These are epidemiologic studies, which is really the only way to go for these kind of problems. I mean breast cancer, for example. You can't separate a large group of women into people who will be exposed to light and others that won't be, in order to find out 20 or 30 years later who will have an increased rate of breast cancer. You can do that with epidemiologic studies where you follow people or study people over large numbers of years. So, for example, the Nurses 2 study had 130,000 women. That's now a high-powered study that's valid because of the statistical numbers. So the study you mentioned that only had, I think, 100 people for Alzheimer's. That kind of a study raises your eyebrows but you can't put too much weight in it because it's just not statistically sound enough. Yet it would make you want to do a large study and come to, if it comes to the same conclusion, then you'd put a lot more weight on it. So, for example, breast cancer in women is very statistically sound. These days we now have 25 large studies all around the world, from the US with the NERSA study, to South Korea, israel, European studies. Spain just published one, in fact just last year followed women for over 30 years and they all came to the same conclusion Women who live in light-polluted areas and we're talking about outdoor lights now.

Mario Motta: 41:30

They study with satellite measurements and zip codes how much light pollution there is. The mechanism is presumed to be lights shining in your bedroom at night, even while you're sleeping with your eyes closed. It only takes 0.02 microwatts of light to start suppressing your melatonin, and it's not that I want to be very clear here. It's not that photons cause cancer. That's not at all correct to say. I was at a conference where some light advocates kept saying light is toxic. No, you can't say that. What you can say is we've evolved over a million years to have high melatonin at night when we sleep. Light in our bedroom suppresses melatonin. So it's not that the light causes cancer, but by suppressing melatonin we develop health problems. And specifically the way that works is the. Melatonin can be viewed as a adjuvant to our immune system. It stimulates at night while we sleep and we have high levels to circulate what's called B and T lymph cells. The B cells target abnormal cells and the T cells kill them after they're targeted, and that doesn't work if our melatonin levels are low. So again, it's not that light causes cancer, but every person listening to this.

Mario Motta: 43:00

On average, we divide several billion cells every day or more, and we're not the same people we were two months ago. All our cells have turned over by dividing into new cells, except for our neurons. And in all these divisions it's no stretch of the imagination to consider that a few of them won't divide properly. Most of these are not viable and die on their own, but a few of them are damaged in a way that their control system is lost and they can multiply unimpeded. That's a cancer. That's the very definition of a cancer.

Mario Motta: 43:34

It's estimated every person on earth produces 10 to 20 cancer cells every single day. Why don't we all die of cancer by age one? The reason is we have an immune system that recognizes these cells and kills them, these cells and kills them. So if you think of life that way and how biochemical processes work, if we now diminish the activity of the immune system just a little, then it's just a slightly higher chance that one of these abnormal cells will escape detection and will proliferate and become a cancer. And that's the mechanism of how light pollution can induce mostly endocrine-related cancers, specifically breast, prostate, and now some evidence for pancreas and thyroid. In fact, in 2017, the Nobel Prize in Medicine went to Hall Robach and Young because they elucidated the entire biochemical pathway and the Nobel Prize Committee thought that was important enough for the Nobel Prize. The lighting companies don't want to discuss that, but it's pretty important.

Bill McGeeney: 44:39

That is the most detailed description of the whole process. I really appreciate that, Mary. That helps me understand. I know it helps the listener at home understand it. That really is helpful. Yes, David.

David Lefevre: 44:52

Yeah, I totally agree and join Mario on his idea and explanations. Just for people who are listening, melatonin it's not a word you usually hear in a day-to-day conversation. Just to give some hints and ideas about it. When you have two ways for the brain to communicate to your body, one way is electrical system, so the nerves and the muscle. When you want to move your hand, your fingers, this is an electrical signal that goes and flows into your body.

David Lefevre: 45:28

But for all the types of communication inside the body, this is hormones and melatonin is one. For example, the temperature of the body is controlled by this kind of things hormones when you're eating and at some point, oh, I cannot eat anything, I'm done with eating. This is hormones your brain tailing to your body okay, stop to it. And this kind of mechanism with the sleep is induced by melatonin. This is a normal, this is a way of communication from the brain to the body and by having lights at night we break this communication or we damage this communication. Then later on we might have cancer. So it's just to give a little more simplistic idea to better understand. But I totally agree with Mario.

Bill McGeeney: 46:22

Dr Mato, I've seen articles come through that say hey, if you have a significant amount of exercise and a significant amount of healthy eating combined with that, you can mitigate some of these melatonin effects.

Mario Motta: 46:38

I have not seen any studies that you can mitigate loss of melatonin. But certainly living a healthy life with exercise and proper eating habits, not excessive drinking and all that is the right thing to do and that'll put you in a better physical state so that you can withstand other adverse health assaults on your body no question about that. But whether you're healthy or in ill health, there is no reason to diminish your melatonin system and diminish your health even further at any stage of your life. It's just an illogical thing to do. It's just not well known, so most people don't have it on the top of their head that that is a thing that should be considered for a healthy life to have a dark bedroom and sleep properly.

Glenn Heinmiller: 47:29

Well, as you know, I have a little bit of a rant about these studies using satellite data, if you don't mind me.

Bill McGeeney: 47:38

Oh no.

Glenn Heinmiller: 47:39

Not to contradict anything Mario said, but I took some quotes from one of these studies. In the abstract it said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The association between exposure to outdoor artificial light at night and the risk of blah, blah, blah, blah. The association between exposure to outdoor artificial light at night and the risk of blah, blah, blah, blah. That's totally misleading, because they do not know anything about the exposure of the individual to outdoor light at night. All they know is that within a one square kilometer, half square kilometer pixel, there was a certain, maybe sort of approximated level of light outside their house. So unless all their study subjects were living outdoors, you don't know that. And then you read these things and you get to the end and they say this is one of the papers about. All the second, satellite-derived data serves as crude representation of light exposure. Second, satellite-derived data serves as crude representation of light exposure. Actual light exposure can be influenced by many factors at individual levels, such as indoor light exposure, nighttime activity, shift work, et cetera, et cetera.

Mario Motta: 48:50

And the one that really cracked me up was the one where they were using social media posts to measure insomnia. Using social media posts to measure insomnia, glenn, I understand what you're saying, but this is why I prefaced it by saying that the study that was mentioned on Alzheimer's that only had 100 patients, then it's just anecdotal in my mind, but when you have 130,000, all those things average out OK. And let me put it this way, the level of proof for now, 25 large scale studies. We now have probably eight to 9 million people who have been studied and all of the studies come out the same way. There's about a 13 to 17% increase in breast and prostate cancer.

Mario Motta: 49:33

You can't ignore studies when they get to those levels. It's the same level of proof of smokers and lung cancer. You know the cigarette companies poo-poo because it's only epidemiologic. But when you have millions of people studied in an epidemiologic study, it's essentially proof. Lung studies are classified as 2A levels in terms of risk. The only thing that makes it one is if you drink benzene or cyanide, okay, then you die. All these other studies are 2A, and 2A studies are very valuable if they're powered with enough people. Lung cancer studies fit that. So do light pollution studies nowadays, because there's just so many of them that are reproducible over and, over and over again. So if you don't buy the light pollution studies at 2A, then you can't possibly buy smoking studies, because it's the same level of proof, the exact same level.

Glenn Heinmiller: 50:36

Yeah, I mean, the only thing is smoking is we know the smoke is going into someone's lung.

Mario Motta: 50:41

We don't know how much they smoke precisely, whether they absorb, whether they puff, and with the light pollution this has been looked at.

Mario Motta: 50:50

It's the degree of lights that shine into your bedroom windows and that's what they're looking for. And David Blaskett, Tulane, has done fantastic studies on this amount of light and he's reproduced it with rats where he implanted human breast cancer under the skin of what's called nude mice these are mice that are bred to accept transplants and then did 0.2 microwatts I mean, the human eye can barely see that and the mice that got that had an increased rate of breast cancer growth that was implanted. The ones that got 0.1 microwatts, an even greater amount. He had five different breakdowns, just like the satellite studies of gradations, and sure enough, the mice had increased rates of breast cancer growth depending on the amount of light they were exposed to. That mimicked the nurse's study with the five grades of light pollution on the outdoors, exactly. I mean now again, if it was one study, I agree with you. Well, it's got to be reproduced. It's been reproduced 24 other studies now, including the last one in Spain. So the evidence is just overwhelming these days and it just can't be ignored.

Bill McGeeney: 52:10

Dr Mata, there was the Bright nights and darker days study that came out in October through PNAS that I was spoken about in an earlier show. It had 88,000 individuals using light monitors. You know they actually were able to understand presumably understand how much light impact an individual is getting.

Mario Motta: 52:28

Yeah, that's proactive and it's great if you can do that kind of a study and that's valuable. But but to do millions of people you get the exact same level of proof if you've got, because whether someone turns off their light at 10 or at midnight, all that averages out when you've got, you know, a hundred thousand people.

Glenn Heinmiller: 52:48

It doesn't average out when you only have a hundred people I think the the one that we used sensors was interesting because then, theoretically, you are actually measuring exposure. But the problem was well, first of all, the sensor was worn on their wrist and we know nothing about the nature of that exposure, except it's the illuminance level on their wrist. So we don't know where it came from. Did it come from their phone? Did it come from the streetlights in their bedroom window? Did it come from you know what? And? And so it's tough. I know there are people who are trying to do sensor studies with you know headgear so they can actually get light at the eye. There've been some studies that have done like that small groups, but I'm not. Yeah, I just think some of these studies that are weak give the good studies a bad name, I suppose.

Mario Motta: 53:41

Yeah, but I would consider these weak not when they have over 100,000.

Glenn Heinmiller: 53:45

One you mentioned, where you said it was a small group.

Mario Motta: 53:47

Yeah, if it's a small group, I agree with you. It's a weak study. You can't do statistics on 100 people. You can do statistics on 100,000 and more. And I'll give you another reason to trust these. There was one negative study that came out of Canada. Out of all the studies that I mentioned that show an increase in breast cancer, this one negative study. People were perplexed, saying okay, why was this different? And they went and found out the reason it's different is if you live in Montreal or Quebec City, okay, you're at summertime, you never get dark skies, you never get a dark night because of the midnight sun. So everyone, pretty much everyone there has blockout curtains, blockout shades. So consequently, in Montreal you had no increase in breast cancer on the same kind of study, because at night no light from the street can enter the bedroom, whereas that wasn't the case in all the 24 other studies. So to me that's actually good, positive evidence that the others are real.

Glenn Heinmiller: 54:51

Right, that's a good control.

Bill McGeeney: 54:52

Well, that was a very lively discussion there. I appreciate that gentlemen. Good questions there, glenn, because I know a lot of people do have those similar questions and it's great to hear Dr Mata be able to.

Glenn Heinmiller: 55:04

The other thing is it's confounded this completely. I don't know if it affected any of the studies, but over the last 10 years the use of bright objects close to our face has increased in the developed world, even in the non-developed world, I mean. It has increased dramatically and we have no idea exactly what we can estimate the effects, because we can measure the. You know the amount of light coming off the screen and everything. I know people have been doing that, but I guess the thing is it's like yes, we need to reduce the amount of outdoor lighting, right, but let's not lose. You know I don't want to. We should. Society also has to look at what we're doing to ourselves indoors.

Glenn Heinmiller: 55:46

Yeah, they're both forms of light pollution.

Mario Motta: 55:48

Absolutely. People who sleep with a nightlight on are much higher risk.

Glenn Heinmiller: 55:52

That's already well known, the one where they were measuring insomnia by looking at people, looking at their phones and posting on social media. Well, maybe they had insomnia because they were looking at their phone.

Mario Motta: 56:02

Glenn, I'm going to push back a little here. In the NURSES study they asked women specifically what were your nighttime habits? These are not people who put on light lights at night. Okay, those were segregated into a separate group. So these are people who shut off their lights, had curtains and still had a higher rate of breast cancer just by living in a city.

Bill McGeeney: 56:24

To Glenn, to your point for the light at night inside your living space. I don't know if you had this experience. This is the last thing, and then we'll roll out the show. Do you see any of these air fresheners? Right, they all have lights. So we've stayed at some Airbnbs where you have four or five different light sources in a room and it's like an air freshener, an air freshener, an oven light, you name it. Everything has these little indicator lights for really no apparent reason. They're just. I don't know, maybe they up the value of the product. But yeah, to your point, the rooms, your living space, does get brighter and that has to be. That is, in my mind, a form of light pollution. It's doing no different than, you know, exterior light pollution, right?

Mario Motta: 57:05

And my advice, people, is put a little piece of tape over the LED.

Bill McGeeney: 57:09

Okay. Well, let's end the first show of January here. We'll pick up the second half in two weeks. I'd like to thank my guest advocate, david Laferro, whom you might find over his site. Oh man, I don't speak French, let's do it. Help me out here. I know I was going to. I should have put pronunciation right here, but anyway, you can find over his site.

David Lefevre: 57:32

No problem. The website is named Les Etoiles, which means basically let's light up the stars again.

Bill McGeeney: 57:41

LesEtoileseu, Remember that folks EU.

David Lefevre: 57:44

Not EU yeah.

Bill McGeeney: 57:46

Lighting designer, glenn Heinmiller from LAM Partners, and Dr Mario Amato, which we're all familiar with your occupational achievements, but amateur astronomy ones are equally as amazing, including this great photo of the ring nebula right behind his head, where your head is the star of the supernova as a reminder, there are many ways you can connect with us. Find Light Pollution News on LinkedIn, instagram, tiktok, facebook and if you have any thoughts or comments for today's show, please feel free to shoot them over via the text link in the show notes, or you can email us at bill at light pollution newscom. We're supported solely by our listeners. If you like today's episode and like what we're doing, feel free to click support to show. Help us grow. Link in the show notes. Light pollution news was recorded on December 15th 2024. Thank you once more for joining today. I'm your host, bill McGeaney. Remember to only shine the lights where they are needed. And a happy New Year's everyone, and be sure to stay to the very end, as I do have some listener mail to go through.