Light Pollution News

March 2025: Gateway Topics!

• Light Pollution News / Bill McGeeney / Art Hushen / Jeff Schmalz / Spencer Soohoo • Season 3 • Episode 5

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Light Pollution, once thought to be solely detrimental to astronomers, has proven to be an impactful issue across many disciplines of society including ecology, crime, technology, health, and much more!

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Bill McGeeney:

light pollution news march 2025 gateway topics. This episode headlights, interior lights, what is going on with car lights and should we leave the lights on for puffins? Plus, how much do you spend to get a good night's sleep? This month on the show, I welcome los angeles dark sky advocate spencer suhu, the founder of the dark skies, subreddit Jeff Schmaltz, and law enforcement veteran and educator Art Hushen. A new episode of light pollution news begins right now. Glad you at home could join me for another Light Pollution News. I'm your host, bill McGeaney.

Bill McGeeney:

Each month, we gather the news and bring on three great guests to talk about the goings-on. If this is your first time listening, welcome. We do the show twice a month and cover a variety of topics, as light pollution casts a rather wide glow on our society. You can find out more about light pollution news by heading over to our website at lightpollutionnewscom. Over there, you'll find the script and transcript for today's show. You'll also find all of the links that we talk about today, not to mention a variety of useful tips and a whole page dedicated to ecology news. While there, you can join our mailing list or become a supporter of the show. Paid supporters receive personal invites to each show as an audience member, which often has a Q&A with the guests at the very end of the show. We also provide a full slate of news poll to our paid supporters. That's the full month of news poll that we get. We give that right to our paid supporters. Interesting becoming a supporter. Starting cost is only three dollars a month. That's literally less than the price of one cup of coffee you will get in the course of your month. All proceeds go towards us continuing to grow our footprint by covering costs including production, server and marketing. Learn more by either clicking support the show link in today's show notes or by heading over to our website, lightpollutionnewscom. Slash support. Of course, before we begin today, please hit that subscribe button, if you haven't already, and you'll be able to receive this show delivered into your podcast feed each and every release. And be sure to find us over on Instagram, linkedin, tiktok. We have a small but growing community over on Facebook, so we'd love to hear from you. Lastly, if you ever thought about today's show that you'd like to have read on the air, you have two options. You can text it over by way of a free text link in the show notes, or you can email me bill at light pollution newscom. Let's get back to it this month. I want to thank my guests for coming on. We have, I think, a really fun slate of guests here.

Bill McGeeney:

First up, many of you may know his Reddit, even if you don't know the man behind the channel. I learned of this Reddit through friend of the show, diane Ternshack, who told me and implored me to definitely check out the Dark Sky Reddit and the man behind the curtain, mr Jeff Schmaltz. I'm saying that. Right, jeff. Right, yeah, you are Close enough. Well, jeff, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and you mentioned a stat. What was it? How many subscribers do you have on that Reddit? Now we're over 32,000 members. Okay, over 32,000 members. That is kind of a bonkers amount. And why don't you tell us a little bit about this Reddit, how it started? How did this come about?

Jeff Schmalz:

I think I'll start off by saying, for people who aren't familiar, what Reddit is. Reddit is a social media site, and what makes Reddit unique is that it breaks down into what they call subreddits, which are topics of conversation for specific interests. So you can find anything from bicycling to water polo to anything you like, and I started with a passion for basketball. When I discovered I was a dark sky advocate and very passionate about the subject, when I went to Reddit, I searched for a dark sky subreddit and, to my surprise, there wasn't one. And as a dark sky advocate, we know that one of the most important things we can do is raise awareness about the subject, and so I sort of decided to take the mantle and start the dark sky subreddit myself, and it's sort of been a learning process since, and it's been growing and growing since then.

Bill McGeeney:

Jeff, when did you start that Reddit? I think it's been about 10 years ago, maybe 11. What was it like starting out 10 years ago? Was it just a trickle of people or did it have a sharp it?

Jeff Schmalz:

was absolutely empty. It was nothing. You know, one of the things about being a moderator is that you have to sort of create your own content, especially if nobody else is posting anything. So there's just years of me finding these dark sky stories and just posting them and most of them getting ones, and then eventually they started getting threes and fives for karma. That's how they sort of upvoted, and nowadays, you know, we have suburbs that get, you know, up to 3000 upvotes and onwards. So it's really nice to see it grow Wow 10 years ago, only one or two.

Bill McGeeney:

I know your average is probably in the like like right around a hundred, right the upvotes yes, it is, that's pretty impressive.

Jeff Schmalz:

I mean that that is a lot, that's. That's no small feat, no, but it's always exciting when you really when you find a, a a subject that people are passionate about, and then it really gets excitement and the conversation gets going.

Bill McGeeney:

Oh, excellent work. That's a man, yeah, and if you at home haven't used Ready, it's very niche right, hyper-specific, you know, and we'll talk about that in a second. But, jeff, very glad to have you here so maybe you can help us through one of the articles coming up Next up this month, someone who I tried to have back on December. I think we crossed our lines a few times and hopefully everything is okay and hopefully everything's all right for you out there in LA region. Mr Spencer Suhu, thank you for coming on, and you're a research scientist by day and an astronomy enthusiast by night. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got your passion into this space?

Spencer Soohoo:

Well, actually I grew up in Northern Arizona and you could walk outside your front door and look up and you could see the Milky Way and I was like, wow, that's great. Through the years I've been in different places. I ended up in Southern California and good luck seeing the Milky Way from downtown LA. I also volunteer for star parties at Griffith Observatory and we pick the first quarter moon because and people ask why? And we say, well, there's so much light pollution, you're not going to see much else besides the really bright stars and and planets, and at least you can see the moon.

Spencer Soohoo:

So I got interested in the dark sky because my astronomy club, the Los Angeles Astronomical Society, has a dark sky side about 90 miles outside of the Los Angeles Astronomical Society has a dark sky site about 90 miles outside of LA and there you can walk out and you can see the Milky Way, no problem, although light pollution from the developments in the nearby, about maybe 30 miles away, is getting worse and worse. And used to be. We could stand next to each other and barely see each other's faces. Now there's no trouble recognizing faces because there's so much light pollution.

Spencer Soohoo:

So I got into dark sky advocacy when we learned that the Los Angeles Board of Supervisors had approved the development of 10,000 housing units about 10 or 15 miles away from our site, and we said, oh boy, that's really going to ruin things. And so another fellow and I we co-chair the Los Angeles Atmobus Society Dark Sky Light Pollution Committee and we started contacting the county supervisor's offices things like that trying to figure out what we could do about this to mitigate the problem. And it turned out that Los Angeles County had a dark sky ordinance that was passed in 2011. And so, after working with various officials in various departments, we finally hooked up with the Department of Regional Planning and it turned out that Los Angeles County had the dark sky ordinance, but it had not been enforced. And we said, ok, that's where we're going to start. So we figured we'd do a multi-phased approach. We would work on strengthening the legislation that's already in place and then work on public awareness and education, and so that's basically how we got our start.

Bill McGeeney:

And you initially and I caught your name when you guys sent out a pamphlet you guys are putting pamphlets out.

Spencer Soohoo:

So the aha moment, I think, was, you know, we were getting nowhere with regional planning. And then, just for the hell of it, I thought, you know, I'm going to invite them to our dark sky site and they'll see what we're talking about. That was one of those Hail Mary passes right, and I was shocked when they accepted I said, oh shoot, so we. So it turned out that we were very fortunate because the director's daughter was interested in astrophysics. And so this other fellow, Rod Kaufman, and I picked our what we call a family night, where we can invite guests to our dark sky site, and so he brought out his 16-inch knob and we had several other scopes out there, and so we always showed them Jupiter, and you can see Jupiter. It was so bright that you could actually see the image projected onto your people's faces. And then I pointed out the Milky Way, and I pointed out the light dome from the San Corito Valley and said see, the Milky Way is being obscured by the light pollution.

Spencer Soohoo:

And the director looked at me and says, okay, I get it. And that to me was the aha moment, the turning point. And so they actually, after we met with them, we set up some periodic meetings and they said you know, education is a big factor. We don't have the budget for proactive enforcement. We depend on people reporting problems and we go after the offenders. So we're going to, at our expense, send out 10,000 mailers to northern Los Angeles County and telling people about the light pollution ordinance, and then about six or eight months later they made a second mailing to slightly different areas of LA County. Spence real quick.

Bill McGeeney:

LA County for those at home who aren't aware, because LA County is a big county and when people think of LA, they think of the city, right, they think of the cities, think of the coastal communities. Why don't you tell me about LA County and how this ordinance was supposed to be applied?

Spencer Soohoo:

Okay. So the loophole is that it applies to the unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County. The loophole is that it applies to the unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County. If there's a city like Pasadena or Los Angeles, they have their own planning department, they set their own zoning requirements and such, but for the unincorporated areas, which means those areas which do not have their own city per se, they don't have a charter or whatever, or a mayor or council. They depend on LA County to provide the broad governance structure, so to speak. So Los Angeles County will establish codes for residential building and commercial building, things like that.

Spencer Soohoo:

What the county did, what the Board of Supervisors did in 2011, was that they approved what they call the Rural Outdoor Lighting District. So that applies to all of the non-incorporated or unincorporated areas. Think of it as the non-urban areas of LA County, although the non-urban areas could be quite big and contribute a lot of light pollution. I think, for example, there's an area called the Antelope Valley, which is about 20 miles north of downtown Los Angeles, and that's a big sprawling area. There are two communities, lancaster and Palmdale, but surrounding those areas, outside those city boundaries, it's a lot of development, a lot of houses, a lot of industrial parks and things like that, and so the light pollution ordinance applies to those, but they don't apply to the specific cities in the county.

Spencer Soohoo:

It covers a wide area and it covers what's importantly. It covers what we includes what we call the wildlife urban interface. So where I live, I live like in the foothills of Los Angeles, near where the Eden Canyon fire started. In fact, we could see the flames as they approached JPL from my house before we were evacuated. But I live in sort of an urban wildlife interface, and so this is I think that's an area that we need to preserve as well, and so my city that I live in, la Cañada, is incorporated, so it has its own zoning or its own building codes and things like that. So technically, the rural outdoor ordinance will not apply to the city of La Cañada, but it applies to all the area outside the boundaries of the city. So one of our efforts is to contact the governing councils or city councils of these cities in the wildlife interface and try and get them to adopt the Rural Outdoor Lighting District or the standards as well.

Bill McGeeney:

How's that been going? I feel like it depends on the size and I guess the industry in the community.

Spencer Soohoo:

And size and industry. And, to be honest with you, in my own city I made a presentation to the city council. They had their own planning meetings and I got the okay thanks, great ideas. We'll get back to you. I pinged them again.

Spencer Soohoo:

Oh yeah, we're busy with other things and so it's been going on for a few years now, and so it's one of those things where it's going to take a lot of persistence Now actually.

Spencer Soohoo:

So that's one of the things that we're trying to do with the Board of Supervisors now is that we actually invited our supervisor from my district to visit us at Mount Wilson, and Mount Wilson is, I think, everybody I don't know if people are familiar with it, but that's the historic Mount Wilson where the historic 60-inch telescope is, where Hubble discovered our place in the universe and so on, and so it's not used for scientific research anymore because of light pollution. And so when we invited Katherine Barger up there to look through the 100-inch telescope and she was really, really wowed by what she saw, and her deputies were with her, and then as we walked outside, you could see the light pollution just in the LA basin just below us, and she said OK, we think we can help you guys, and so the net result of that was that we've been meeting with her deputies to strengthen and enhance the Rural Outdoor Lighting District ordinance, and of course, we got derailed by the wildfires for a while, but we're going to start that up again in about three or four weeks.

Bill McGeeney:

At least you're safe and out there.

Spencer Soohoo:

You know there's no other major problems hopefully Not yet, not until the next major wind event.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah.

Spencer Soohoo:

But we've had lots of rain so we're okay for a while.

Bill McGeeney:

It's funny you mention Mount Wilson. I actually decided to start doing some observing of the ARP galaxies and I'm reading through the ARP his compendium, and he did a lot of research right there at Mount Wilson and down Palomar as well. Oh yeah, he started at Mount Wilson, which just real quick. Did you guys do anything for the occultation? Were you out there at Mount Wilson for that? The?

Spencer Soohoo:

Mars occultation. Were you out there at Mount Wilson for that? The Mars occultation yes.

Bill McGeeney:

I mean, it happened a while back, but we don't have too many things happen.

Spencer Soohoo:

initially, no, we did not. It's closed for the season. Right now the roads are pretty treacherous going up there this time of the year Got it Okay.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, moving on to our last guest, and certainly not the least, mr Art Hushen. Now, art, you have an interesting story and you served the public for 30 years in the Tampa Police Department's Special Operations Division, helped create the nation's first crime prevention through environmental design program while in Tampa, and you continue to forge the path for environmental design crime reduction at the state level. As an instructor to Florida's Attorney General's office, you founded National Institute of Crime Prevention, which is an educational platform. I believe.

Art Hushen:

It is.

Bill McGeeney:

Yep, you continue advocating the mission today through adjunct professorship over at the University of South Florida, which is probably a really fun gig.

Art Hushen:

It is fun. It's a lot of fun. So, yeah, enjoy the time there too. It's criminology, so again, staying involved with that. But taking a look at the environmental design component, which was so important in learning about it early on, is because I'm a dark sky advocate. Got introduced to dark skies about 2001. So that's how long ago I've been informed with what they're doing.

Art Hushen:

I serve in a couple of committees, so when I look at environmental design, that comes back to things you've been discussing planning, zoning, code, all the things that are relevant when you get into urban design, what a city is going to look like. So when we saw the issue with lighting, which, working with cities around the country, that's a big issue. I've heard the dark sky movement next to that. But working with so many groups that are out there, their concern is going to be crime and a lot of times that's not really discussed, because I understand the value of the night sky, but when we're working with, let's say, properties with 400, 500 units on it and calls for service at nighttime based off the type of crime, I can't come in and tell them well, we don't want to turn your lights on, we have to turn the lights on. So we codify that through zoning. We follow dark sky standards as best as we could. I've served on the rolling committee. So cutoff fixtures again on the ground, full candle and we codify that. So cut off fixtures again on the ground, full candle and we codify that. Instead of coming at it from an activist working with a group or supporting that, we come at it through zoning and code and we find we get more impact from that because through design we can use lighting as one of many strategies to address criminal activity during the hours of dark and still maintain the social component. So we stress that over and over and over again. We do lighting training for the state of Florida. I do lighting training on the cell and I've spoken at IES and serve on committees there.

Art Hushen:

But the emphasis is quality lighting, good design, keeping it on the ground. What does a commuter need? What does crime tell us? Calls for service, which is sometimes skewed because, remember, an actual call for service is a documented incident.

Art Hushen:

And then, when we start looking at the numbers, that may be only 60% of all crimes reported. We're missing a lot of it. So how do we capture that? And so we'd like to conduct neighborhood design charrettes, getting their input on what the lighting should look like, what the street design should look like. So we take this whole different approach to supporting dark skies, focusing on good design and limiting opportunities for crime. A lot of value American Institute of Architects working with them, american Planning Association. So I think we have a good foundation and what I like working with dark skies is that I kind of have an idea what they're looking for and so I know what the public is looking for. So let's bring them both together and see what works best for all of us and still provide that feeling of comfort and safety when they're out walking their pet at night or meeting their neighbors in the park at night.

Bill McGeeney:

The compromise, the ultimate compromise right.

Art Hushen:

The ultimate compromise code and zoning and bring it all together and make it work.

Spencer Soohoo:

Sure, zoning and bring it all together and make it work. Sure, yeah, so I was mentioning that. I'd like to pick his brains later because we're approaching a pivotal point. Our first goal is to get the resolution passed by the Board of Supervisors to direct regional lighting to revisit the ordinance that exists and then that's the perfect point to update some of the standards that are in the ordinance, like no mention of color temperature in the ordinance. So we want to make sure that's in there. They do have things about lights being shielded and things like that, but we think that they could do more, because what we're finding is that, oh, people say, oh, led lights, we save lots of energy. That means we can leave the led lights on longer, right, yeah, and we can get. And so I can get a light that's three times brighter with a quarter of the power that I normally use, and so you know, we're seeing that effect, and so we'd like hey, but it's LED.

Art Hushen:

We got LED that saves the environment. Yeah, that saves the environment.

Spencer Soohoo:

Yeah, so once the resolution gets passed and the director of regional planning gets involved in revising the ordinance, gets involved in revising the ordinance, I think we're going to have some discussions about you know, some of the nitty gritty details about what's involved in, you know, changes in the ordinance, and that's where I'd really like to pick your brains. Oh yeah, I'd love to.

Art Hushen:

Whatever I can do or trade information with you, that's because I always learn too, so I see what you're doing and how it applies to other parts of the country Right Well, outside of the parts of the country Right.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, this is a good segue into our warm-up article this month. I always like to have these in here. They just kind of set the pace for the show a little bit. So last episode, a great discussion with Nick Messler, the streetlight engineer, who really does some phenomenal work around the country, the North Yorkshire Council, over by the North York Moores National Park in the UK. We'll be replacing 4,500 streetlights with what they call a warm white LED fixture. The fixtures are slated to be turned off when not needed in order to protect both the environment thank ecology and with the added benefit of protecting the view of the night sky. Since we're talking about and Spence, I think you have an idea of what good streetlighting is. And Art, you have an idea of what good streetlighting is. And Spence, I think you have an idea of what good street lighting is. And Art, you have an idea of what good street lighting is.

Spencer Soohoo:

Have you guys seen any good examples of street lighting projects that you'd like to share? Yeah, so Los Angeles County Public Works took it on their own to actually start replacing all the lights in the unincorporated areas with 2700 degree Kelvin lights, hundred degree kelvin lights, and so I think I think they've replaced like I I'd have to check, but I think it's upwards of 16 000 outdoor lighting fixtures already. And then they've got southern california edison, who has a contract for maintaining some of the street lights, to replace theirs, and so that's, that's a great feel-good story, and you can really tell the difference, because when you go from LA County to LA City, where the streetlights are not as warm, you can definitely tell the difference.

Bill McGeeney:

And this was something that they did on their own.

Spencer Soohoo:

Yeah, they did on their own, that's a rare story.

Spencer Soohoo:

Yeah well, and so then we have some members who live in Kern County, which is the adjacent county, and that's adjacent to our dark sky site, and so we tried contacting Kern County and we got the oh well, okay, but it's really the utilities company's role to replace the lights and the utility company says, well, we'll do them If the county asks us. And the county says, well, we can't ask them because that means we might have to pay for them, even though the utility had agreed to do that without cost. So we basically hit a stonewall there. But that's the other side of the feel-good story, so to speak.

Art Hushen:

If I can jump in on that too, what Spencer mentioned and Jeff your opinion too mentioned, and jeff your opinion too when I see these retrofits or when they replace the lights, the space hop of old strategies as far as we're replaced the fixtures themselves or the land fixtures, and a lot of times they weren't using some of the the standards for that and we'd look at uniformity and emplacement. And then we're not addressing tree canopy either, because over time that tree canopies continue to grow. So replacing all're, replacing all the new fixtures, but we still have the dark spots again which might be an indication of areas of concealment and hiding Under new construction. I see it done very, very well when we're working with lighting professionals. For example, nick and Ari, they're on the US Septet Association, so again they're very active with us too and I love the idea of the replacement. It's a start. You know it's always a start. But then tree canopy sidewalks seasonal things that tie into that.

Art Hushen:

That's a big concern for us when we look at that. You know it is and you're right, it's a step. I love the idea that they're making the changes. But that distribution again, how do I get that light out uniformly, based off maybe some of the old city codes that were there on light placement. I've seen some per block. It says one light per block. So we're replacing that one with a new standard but I only have one light so we don't have that infill to support that level of illumination along the entire corridor and that becomes a concern.

Bill McGeeney:

Jeff, do you have any good examples? You seen anything good out there in the wild? No, unfortunately I don't.

Jeff Schmalz:

I see a lot more of the other side of it. You know the purple lights everywhere. Oh man, right, yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

You and me both.

Spencer Soohoo:

You know, I grew up in the town I grew up in in northern Arizona, winslow. The city manager was an amateur astronomer, astrophotographer. He helped start an astronomy club there, and actually he was instrumental in getting the city to put in nice, sky-friendly street lighting, and so that was great. Now fast forward five years and he's left, and now people are complaining that there are not enough lights at night, so they want more lights and brighter lights, and so that's an example, I think, which shows how one person can make a difference either way. So the new city manager is kind of oblivious to the whole issue, and so I was there a few months ago and I was just amazed at how much the light pollution had increased.

Jeff Schmalz:

You need constant education continuously, to always keep that conversation at the forefront, Otherwise people will very forget and fall back into old patterns.

Spencer Soohoo:

Agreed, agreed. It's got to be continuous education for a couple of generations, so people get that ingrained in them.

Art Hushen:

Like I said, a couple of generations, I like that. Yeah, I mean we're just getting a couple of generations, so people get that ingrained in them. Like I said, a couple of generations, I like that. Yeah, I mean we're just getting a feel of it Now, the future, those that come after us. Hopefully they'll maintain that and keep it going.

Bill McGeeney:

Jeff, your site has been steadily going up over time, so hopefully it's indication of general momentum and reach.

Jeff Schmalz:

Yes, and they tend to appeal to younger audiences, so you get that optimism that younger people might be learning about this and continuing on.

Bill McGeeney:

I want to start us off this month with the ongoing saga similar to Streetlights, but I've punted on this one for some time, mainly because I didn't think the news was really ripe enough yet for it. But here we are, and you can thank some excellent reporting by Nate Rogers at the Ringer. I recommend that all of you read this article, which, of course, can be found over on our show links. In 2025, there's no shortage of light pollution sources, and also in 2025, there's no shortage of passing the buck. I labeled this one under nuisance lighting, which has very real implications.

Bill McGeeney:

Toward the end of 2024, news articles in the UK began to show signs that the United Kingdom was going to be the first English-speaking country to try and tackle the topic of headlight dazzling. For you at home, the phrase dazzle doesn't refer to some Hollywood or Bollywood superstar. Rather, it refers to the temporary blinding of a driver by the headlight glare that could precede any number of terrifying endings. Some things to note from Rogers' article and since 2015 and the advent of LED headlights, the average headlight brightness has risen an astonishing 120%. And then the data that Rogers presents is a bit more curious, including one connection drawn from a New York Times article that correlates the rise in LEDs to increases in reckless driving and road fatalities. The article also discusses things from the point of view of a subredditor named Paul Gatto.

Bill McGeeney:

Gatto, of course, started up this Reddit called F your Headlights, edited above. Since we are a family show, of course. The subreddit, as Rogers puts it, reads at times as if Grandpa Simpson is writing a letter to the president to say that there are too many states and following up with a very RFK by the way, I'm not a crackpot Gotto and his Reddit represents a very activating, begrudging community who will bore the new blinding low beams as much as the staining high beams. So I'm sure that everyone here has had a moment when they've been driving with these new LEDs that have blinded you or blinded a loved one, and, of course, this is a very fixable problem. This topic, jeff, I want to shoot this one over to you because this has been kind of a hot topic on your Reddit. Why do you think this specific topic has made it into the Dark Skies Reddit?

Jeff Schmalz:

I think it's because it's easily accessible to everybody. Spencer was talking about how he had to convince people by driving them to see their dark sky sights and to see the new light pollution, but headlights are something we see every day and we're always impacted by it, and it's popular on Reddit. Reddit is a niche, so people can find it very quickly and when you're blinded by something, guess what, there's a Reddit where you can vent that frustration and there'll be people to cheer you on and I think it's a great subreddit and you know, I'm happy that they're there and yes, but I think the important part is that headlights well, I think, if you think of it as a gateway topic to the larger discussion of dark skies because you really do feel it it's easily accessible.

Bill McGeeney:

Gateway topic that's an excellent way to put it. Oh topic that's an excellent way to put it. Oh man, yeah, you know, it feels like red is definitely the place to go to to vent. You know, we've all had these moments. Godo even built a rear view mirror brightness reducer. You can actually buy this to assist you when someone pulls up behind you with absurdly bright led bars from hell.

Bill McGeeney:

I'll also mention that in an act of desperation, led bars from hell. I'll also mention that, in an act of desperation, the author Rogers reached out to NPR's click and clack to the remaining surviving brother, ray Magliazzi, who has this humorous quote regarding the aftermarket LED light bars. I don't know if any of you guys, if you at home, have seen them. They are essentially rectangular, ultra bright bars that people for some reason decide to put on front of their vehicle. Per Magliazzi, speaking from Boston, massachusetts, people attach these LED bars to their cars as if they're going to encounter a moose or something. Here we are on Topica Automobiles. Have you guys, has anyone here purchased a new car in the last year or two? Okay, so everyone here has purchased a new car.

Bill McGeeney:

Have you guys had noticed your interior setup is much brighter than it used to be as well?

Art Hushen:

the touchscreen also just seeing that dash display, you know, going from that looking on the road and then again the I don't like to drive at night anymore. To be honest with you, it's just kind of fearful between the headlights and the street lights in the background. I have a hard time seeing that just recently. So it's kind of like okay, just stop driving. My wife says, stop driving at night, I'll drive for you, but I'm not that old yet. So, yeah, I do have problems with it.

Spencer Soohoo:

So it's really frustrating. I mean, I go to our dark sky site on our dark sky night. The rules are only red lights. Turn off your interior dome lights. Carry red cellophane for people to put over their interior lights, things like that. It gets cold in the winter, right. So you go in your car to warm up, the screen lights up and it's bright and it just floods the entire field and you say, oh, shoot, now people are going to curse me out because I've destroyed their night vision for the next 30 minutes.

Bill McGeeney:

I mean, it's the same when you go to a star party these days, because I'm thankful we picked up a new Subaru and I was able to tape over many of the areas, right, but still cars have all these weird lights on the outside. You don't know where they're all at and you know you can get one. It feels like whack-a-mole sometimes, trying to figure out where everything is.

Spencer Soohoo:

My car. The minute you approach, a light under the rear view mirror comes on to light your path. I said, oh no, yeah, so yeah, it's a problem. It took me forever, and every time I try to do it I have to try on there to find out where I can dim the damn panel. It's not easy to find how to dim it.

Bill McGeeney:

Even if you dim it right. So in our Subaru I like to have it pretty dark when I'm driving. You know, just so I can see what's going on, just so I can see the speedometer, see, you know what the dash is looking like. I don't need that blazing at me, so we're able to dim it down, even including the giant infotainment screen. I don't know why we need to have TV screens in our car, but that's totally a separate topic. The giant infotainment screen comes back up to full brightness once you turn off the car. It destroys your driving vision. And then you get out and you stumble because you can't see anything.

Spencer Soohoo:

Well, at least in in my car I've got one light that always stays on it. At least it's amber, so it's right on the it shows, shines down onto the pedals, so then that's always on at night and there's no way to turn that one off. But yeah, but it's amber, so it's not bad and I see it all and I love it.

Art Hushen:

Yeah, I love the new car, but again it's just those little things like you talked about. It's just trying to again the glare again, which is a big component I kind of call glare or kryptonite. You know, it makes us all weak and takes strength from us. So I see that constantly and I'm like, okay, how do I adjust? When I go out, pull in my driveway, get out, go up to the door, it's just. It's just kind of frustrating a lot of times.

Bill McGeeney:

I mentioned the interior part of the car right, because we had a Motor One article that actually took a jab at automakers this month who bundled their dash interior lighting screen brightness controls all inside the infotainment screen, which is probably the worst place it could be when you're driving trying to find a quick way to reduce brightness or to change something like your defroster and fan speed, and all that. Author Chris Perkins bemoans the eyesore of the infotainment screen. As I said, I really couldn't agree more. Any impact of LED strips in car interiors, for which the author casually implicates car manufacturer Mercedes, who I believe have a purple or maybe it's an adjustable color light bar that goes across the whole interior right at the arm shoulder length. And then there's a lack of simple, tangible control switches anywhere in a car, and I think everyone can probably agree that maybe that can come back.

Bill McGeeney:

A while back I had Ben Chappelle from the narrowband channel who came on who mentioned that his wife's honda had one switch where he could turn off all the lights. Pretty amazing. I don't know why that's not in cars these days. Jeff, how's your car?

Jeff Schmalz:

it's. You know what I was able to get dark enough where I don't buy it, where it doesn't bother me. But this topic of conversation makes me think back to some articles I read last week about what happened with Jeep Company and Jeep cars and there were several people who were complaining that they were getting forced ads any time they stopped the car. And so every time you stop the car you get an ad, for I think it was car insurance or something like that and Jeep came out and said that was part of a contract that they had, that they would have to show those ads. And then Jeep's parent company, Stellantis, actually clarified that and said there was a bit of a glitch of the opt-out program. But I think what we really have to pay attention to is that these infotainment screens are actually going to be advertisement screens every time we stop the car and with the audio industry's need for increasing profit, it's a certainty that we're going to see more of it.

Bill McGeeney:

Thanks for bringing back the good news, Jeff. Really appreciate that. Jeff, what kind of car do you have?

Jeff Schmalz:

Oh, I have a Honda, you have a Honda and you know what I just did the switch from midsize cars to an SUV. So I think one of the things we talk about with uh headlights every night is that you're up a little bit higher and it's a little bit yeah now you're out there blinding people.

Bill McGeeney:

Well we're, we blind people too, but we, our lights are hideous and I, I think some people have definitely tried to blind us back because we, we can't turn any lower. It doesn't get any lower. But in talking about the infotainment screen, we were just on a trip to can, one of the things that happens in these new cars. So you know you're in cold weather, it's like 10 degrees every day, 15 degrees every day, fahrenheit, and the car starts off and tire pressure drops right. So it has you know the little thing that pops up. Well, in new modern cars, I guess the thing pops up on the infotainment screen and says, you know like, hey, this is a problem, your tire pressure is real low, take it to a dealer. Not taking it to a dealer, but that seems to be the way we're headed.

Bill McGeeney:

Before we get out of this space, you should know, like, if you pine for the days when cars were had physical control buttons and cars were cars, I guess is probably the best way to put it had physical control buttons and cars were cars, I guess is probably the best way to put it there's an impractical way to actually solve your car's infotainment screen's lack of control buttons. A YouTuber by the name of John Sutley found a way to control his car's digital readout via an old school Game Boy yes, that Game Boy that interfaced directly into the car's form board computer. Apparently, it took Sully a good bit of time to actually figure this one out. He even had to build custom circuit boards, but at the end of the day he proved that it could be done. So hey, you know, maybe get some ads, maybe you can play some Tetris and Pokemon while you're driving. I feel like this is great. I feel like the law enforcement community would really be appreciative of this.

Art Hushen:

They would love that.

Spencer Soohoo:

It would be nonstop for those guys.

Art Hushen:

Well, if it's a self-driving car, true, true, combining all that together Game Boy, self-driving car, tesla, that would be amazing times.

Jeff Schmalz:

Not for me, man. I'm 10-2. Staring at the road, that's all I want to know.

Bill McGeeney:

I hear you, jeff, I'm with you. Changing topics here, we're going to stop yelling at the sky for a little bit. Some interesting stuff over in ecology. This month, the biggest story is from the US Fish and Wildlife, which took a victory lap on positive action that they inspired to reduce bird collisions at some critical areas. These include the famous McCormick Place Center in Chicago, for which you'll recall has a very lengthy history of manslaughter, bird slaughter, killing birds. Mccormick Place installed nearly two football fields worth of bird dots in their windows, and the center also is implementing a curtains closed by default policy to cut down on artificial light escaping the building and luring birds.

Bill McGeeney:

In Speaking of which, did you hear about the Viking Cruise? Viking Cruises actually installed a bird mode on their Octantis and Polaris ships. The mode would reduce the ship's light output by dimming the deck lighting automatically and closing curtains and informing passengers how light adversely impacts birds. This mode will be used when the ship passes through sensitive bird habitat zones. Oftentimes, the birds will be lured to track with the vessel due to its brightness. Due to its brightness and let's not forget, the Petrified National Forest, which has been a dark sky park for seven years, is planning on replacing its current windows with etched bird safe glass.

Bill McGeeney:

Which leads us to a nice little story on puffins, everyone's favorite bird. Puffins are a curious bird. Each year, puffins breed all across the North Atlantic. The lifelong monogamous birds return to the same burrow and lay only one egg. After a few months, the chick then leaves home to venture out onto the sea for the next four years of their lives before they breed.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, according to a study out of Animal Behavior, artificial light of any color attracts puffins. You may recall an earlier article that we had on the show and Jeff had out in his Reddit is that it involved a number of conservationists in Iceland literally tossing puffin chicks into the sea. This helped avert the fledglings from being drawn astray by the nearby streetlights. We'll casually ignore the fact that, yet again, it's incumbent upon people to fix a completely man-made problem that is easily correctable with the right inexpensive shielding.

Bill McGeeney:

Let's continue on here. Well, the study out of animal behavior built on the prior research and found that, yes, increased artificial light at night may increase fledglings' strandings, but it may also be a tool to lure the stranded fledglings away from dangerous situations and user conflicts. The study found that light color does not matter for puffins, rather simply the allure of the light itself. Yet another reason why street lighting should be shielded first when installed. At least that's my perspective on it. Spence, when you are looking to do the ordinance, promotion and education. How much of that do you guys use ecological examples, ecological arguments for?

Spencer Soohoo:

We use that in our pamphlet that we distributed. We use that, as you know, one of the reasons why you should be concerned about light pollution. And we, you know we hit it along multiple fronts and you know, following the Dark Side International's lead. You know you hit it on the energy conservation front, human health front, environmental impact on wildlife. In fact, one of the people we worked with is a professor of biology at UCLA. He also has a local LA chapter of the Audubon Society, but we had discussions with him early on Audubon Society, but we had discussions with him early on. He's actually had a graduate student make a presentation about sort of the impact of light pollution and nesting.

Spencer Soohoo:

I believe I'd have to go back and look at my notes. So it's something that we try to point out to you. We try to hit on as many channels as we can. At some point the message may get across. But, interestingly enough, when you pointed out the story of the puffins in Iceland and when I was there, one of the things that I noticed was that there are all these greenhouses there and they emit a yellow light, and so when you're looking off in the sky, you see the aurora and then you see this yellow glow in the sky from all the greenhouses that are growing the plants. So it's a problem, and I think that's also a problem in some of the more rural areas. I read an article about. I subscribed to a group that attracts aurora and people were complaining about oh well, I think I saw the aurora. This is yellow light, and other people pointed out no, that's the greenhouse that you're seeing.

Bill McGeeney:

Right, yeah, and I remember seeing that story. A poor lady she really thought it was an aurora and it was actually the purple light from a grow light. And over here in the East Coast, in the East Coast of the US, at least in the Northeast, you'll see marijuana is grown in greenhouses with this ultraviolet like this purple glow and the glow you know. Again, a simple solution is curtains. There are solutions for these things. They exist, they are made, they're sold out there. Before we get too far can we talk more about the puffins?

Jeff Schmalz:

Yeah, let's talk about puffins. We've overlooked one of the most amazing parts of this puffin story, which is as a solution, people just throw the puffins over cliffs into the ocean. They just grab these little baby puffins and throw them into the ocean, and that's how we're solving this problem.

Bill McGeeney:

It's amazing to me, Well it's kind of like you know putting duct tape on a bumper right.

Jeff Schmalz:

I mean just to have the courage to take a little chick and just toss it into the ocean off a cliff.

Bill McGeeney:

Yep, yep, that's how they did it.

Art Hushen:

It's like tying into the puppets. I mean I don't see puppets where I live. But going back to my state, florida, where we're dealing with the turtle population, you know, then we look at the lighting there, specific to the site. And I didn't realize about the colors, I did not know that. I thought maybe possibility of what, like turtles for example, we deal with, you know, that might have less of an impact. But when you don't have that, where any light attracts, it's just how do you fix something like, with the exception of shielding, like you mentioned and I've got to come from the law enforcement side on this too when we do change to turtle lights, again looking at the temperature, that has a really big impact on what we call witness potential.

Art Hushen:

So I've got Marine Patrol that's out on boats and they receive descriptions of what to look for. But when they look out, say, okay, I'm looking for a green boat, red boat, I'm looking for an orange boat. They don't see it, they have no clue what they're looking at and so that forces them for the additional work to maybe stop every boat because they can't tell the color and then hit it with a spotlight oh, that's not red. Okay, we can go, but it just and again saving the environment. I understand that, but the impact it has on policing is pretty large because it comes back to camera technology, you know, capturing that image, identifying it, the license plate, the tag, and sometimes they lose that because of that. And again, we're trying to balance both the environment and public safety.

Bill McGeeney:

That's a good so. On that color perception, oftentimes you hear a 4,000 Kelvin temperature. Is that the optimal for law enforcement?

Art Hushen:

That's what we look for, especially with camera technology and body cameras. And what they're wearing. Now they need that light again because you get into color bias, you get into articles of clothing. If I'm capturing that image and I'm sending it to other officers out there, here's what they're wearing. They're able to identify that with that temperature you drop a little lower, below 3,000, then it becomes more difficult for them. But then in the same breath again the environment too. So law enforcement has to come up with some solutions as well, and it can't be isolated. It's got to be everybody coming together to come up with that. But 4,000 is what even the security industry looks for in many cases for their camera systems.

Spencer Soohoo:

But that's you know. I mean, but the recommendation that we're putting out is 2,700 Kelvin is the optimal temperature. Yeah, so 4,000, if I remember right, is quite a bit.

Jeff Schmalz:

Yeah.

Art Hushen:

Yeah, it's quite a bit brighter, whiter yeah it's quite white, it's right up there, but then it gives you that background, it gives you the clothing, it gives you the facial recognition that you need. But then, if it's on the waterfront and you can't do that because of, again, turtles for us, what's the balance for them too? Because a lot of the technology will highlight that face, for example, and identify the person, and the same with the officer's body cameras when they're working on something. It just impacts them. So what's the answer? And that's the discussion we're having now with IS and dark sky and security industry and law enforcement what's that optimal temperature that we can work with, especially in densely populated areas? You know it's different than in a rural area.

Spencer Soohoo:

So, again, looking at those two, it seems like the technology would lend itself to adjusting the electronics so that you can adapt to a lower color temperature. I think it may be an issue with economics at this point.

Art Hushen:

I think so. I think you're right with that, yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, since we're talking about the color temperature, I'm going to skip ahead here to our health news, because this is what I'm curious about. There's only one real kind of health story this month, and it involves our January guest, dr Mario Mata. Evidently, color temperature is a serious point of contention for lighting engineers, probably because of what you're saying here. Art, specifically the Illuminating Engineering Society, ies, who appear to be distancing themselves from the 2016 American Medical Association's claim that street lighting contains blue light that causes adverse health effects. The article from Inside Lighting refers specifically to a Restoring Darkness podcast episode whereby Dr Mata insinuates that some in the lighting community have harassed him.

Bill McGeeney:

For you at home, you'll recall, we had a rigorous discussion on artificial light impact on human health back in our January episodes with Dr Mata. If you missed those, definitely want to check them out. Take a listen. Definitely want to check them out. Take a listen. Perhaps not surprisingly, this piece of inside lighting only brings attention to a 2022 article which we discussed on the show at that time, that indicated roadway lighting may not impact salivary melatonin levels. Existing in the same space, however, are a drumbeat of studies that were left out of the article, which correlate artificial light to human health concerns, including diabetes and Alzheimer's disease, all of which, of course, have been discussed in the show as well. Specifically, I'll point you to our holiday potluck episode, where guest John Barentine brought up the study that he found to be very important from PNAS. I think this, whatever the color, should be what about the human health aspect? How does that play into this calculation?

Art Hushen:

A lot of times it's not even considered. When they just look at crime reduction and interacting with the community. And we said that in that omnipresent program in New York City where they focus that on public housing, they were way up on that scale of 4,000, 5,000, Calvin lighting up the neighborhoods. So they're looking at that. If we're looking politically, they want to see crime reduction. That's what they want to see. Government wants to see crime reduction and New York set that standard where they use that and they drop crime 36 percent using these bright white lights just flooding the side of the buildings. And so if I'm a politician, how do I argue that? Where, hey, this dropped crime 36%. But I'm not talking about your health, I'm not talking about the risk I put you under by using that type of light source. I just dropped crime 36%.

Bill McGeeney:

Also, I guess the best way to put it there are a lot of people who received the light right, so law enforcement here would like to see it. 4,000 brighter, whiter daytime Recipients of the light. However, in almost every survey actually every survey that I've come across on the show, including the one I'm about to talk about right now actually wants to have warmer lights. They want to have warmer lights in their neighborhoods. We've had a small handful of surveys and articles that have discussed this on the show. However, another one here.

Bill McGeeney:

An addendum to the point is it appears a study from looking at visitors' perceptions to Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming found that red lighting is a pretty unoffensive color, despite not being perceived as bright. Researchers surveyed 573 people obviously a biased group that's come into the park, so it's not necessarily in an urban environment or any real-world situation, but it's a park situation. Average age of 44 years old and the individuals are 60% male. Overall, the red light outperformed white on its perceived impact to wildlife and visual comfort. Red outpaced the white on navigational comfort and still was slightly better edging out the white when it came to a feeling of safety. Obviously this is, like I said, a little more of a biased sample right. But how do you balance that with what a neighborhood would want?

Art Hushen:

That is so difficult. Again, and go back to whatencer said earlier about so the technology in the future to try to fix that, that would. That would be the catch-all, that would take care of all of it. But what the if there's no crime occurring there and then we go into grid patterns, traffic flow, pedestrian access, uh, then I don't really see a need to change that lighting out. You know it comes back to public safety and public health is part of public safety. So it's just looking at the full picture, education, talking to each other. I always come back to the new york study.

Art Hushen:

What they did, that you lost quality of life, everything's gone. You know you're going outdoors walking your dog gone, you can't do that anymore. But hey, we dropped around 36. Well, I'm not a happy person anymore because I can't do that anymore. But hey, we dropped crime 36%. Well, I'm not a happy person anymore because I can't interact with my neighbors in the evening hours in the patio because you're flooding with light and just that social component is so infuriating even for me. You know, we could have done that but kept the light on the ground. We could have dropped it down by the bed. But again, it's the political part of it. Let's just flood it with light and we'll make it safe. Did it work? How can I argue with 36% reduction in crime? You know so it did work, but at what cost to the well-being of the neighborhood? So not taking their input. So that's the frustrating part of it too, trying to work with government.

Bill McGeeney:

Okay, we'll finish out the show with some less depressing I guess details. Well, this one comes to us from earthcom, and it's not necessarily about light pollution, but I like this so much I wanted to include it in here because it showcases the impressive capacities of Mother Nature to blend in under a cover of moonlight. Barn owls may be perfectly engineered as predators, as nocturnal animals. The structure of their face helps funnel actual noises to their ears, so they can hear what's going on around them. And then they also have white faces and a white underbelly, something you'd think would probably be problematic for a nocturnal predator. However, barn owls actually leverage bright moonlight to their advantage. The feathers of the bird reflect light that effectively reduces perceived contrast between its body and its nighttime sky. The barn owl, perched high in a tree, blends seamlessly into the night sky. That is a really cool story. I want to share that with everyone, just to show you you know we're talking about light and how it's all used, and an animal, a predator, utilizing light to its advantage in a low light situation. That's pretty good.

Bill McGeeney:

Okay, we got one last piece here and I'll wrap up the first show for this month in March. Do you guys sleep good? I'm just curious how many hours is a good sleep? How many hours you sleep a night? Would you rate it like a 10, five one? How would you rate it like a 10 5 1? How would you rate?

Art Hushen:

who do you want to start with? Let's start with you art I like at least six to seven hours sleep. Seven's good, six, the minimum of seven. You know the age now.

Bill McGeeney:

I'm pretty good with seven and and is it good quality? Are you getting good quality sleep right now?

Art Hushen:

no, I mean, I've got so many things that influence that, from looking at the phone to reading a tablet, to the lights outside. I look at that, yeah, so it's not the best.

Jeff Schmalz:

Jeff how about you? Well, actually I sleep great nowadays, but about 20 years ago I really did not, and this is actually how I became a dark sky advocate was because I couldn't sleep at night and I was up all the time, and even though I didn't get to sleep, I'd wake up in the morning. I was very groggy and I had to really examine what was in my environmental factors. And then I discovered circadian rhythms, melatonin and basically the lights around me were keeping me up at night. And it was that dramatic shift of learning how to adjust the lights in my house turn off, you know, change the lighting of the TV, you know, set the settings of the computer and it was those changes that have really made me passionate and understand what light pollution is. And that was my sort of entry into the subject. Nowadays, with all that control, I mean, I sleep great, head on the pillow and I'm out. Good six, seven hours, I love it. There we the pillow and I'm out Good, six, seven hours, I love it. There we go, god bless you, Spencer.

Bill McGeeney:

how about you?

Spencer Soohoo:

I think my sleep is about average. I get about five and a half to six hours a night. I'm a night owl so I don't go to sleep until we are in the morning. Yeah, through 1.30, sometimes two o'clock. The minute I hit the pillow I'm out within like three minutes.

Bill McGeeney:

Spencer, are you able to observe or do astrophotography from your spot in LA County?

Spencer Soohoo:

Yeah, I do. I'm fortunate that I live on a cul-de-sac with no streetlights, so my city has no streetlights, at least in my area, and I'm on a small private driveway so I can have my telescope on wheels and just roll it out to the top of the driveway and start shooting away.

Bill McGeeney:

Oh, that's great. What kind of rig is it? What kind of scope?

Spencer Soohoo:

I've got two. I've got 61-inch. I'm sorry, 61-inch 61-inch wow, 61-millimeter.

Spencer Soohoo:

Yeah yeah, millimeter Williams optical refractor with a. I got an M5 mount and that I love it, and I also have a nine and a quarter Schmidt castorine that I hook up for galaxies and it's not bad. With the light pollution filter, I get pretty decent results. I've been playing around with quad band filters and they look okay, but I've got some friends in the club who live in a really heavily light polluted areas and they use narrow band and they get some phenomenal pictures with narrow band I live in a portal.

Bill McGeeney:

I guess nine now probably changed over in the past year or so, but I have to. I can only use one or two bands. I can't go much beyond that. But you got to watch out, man, because I'll tell you what. We have a streetlight that just randomly appeared here by a neighbor who? Somehow had ties to some other part of the city and it wasn't the usual streetlight. So they found a way to just plan up a streetlight. Strange things happen.

Spencer Soohoo:

Well, BB guns around yeah.

Art Hushen:

Oh, that's good, I like that, I like that.

Bill McGeeney:

We've joked about that. I can't. I can't say anything with art here on the show, but yeah, you know, and when you're, especially when you live in an urban area, jeff, where do you live? At what area do you live?

Jeff Schmalz:

I live in above, in Northern San Francisco, in the North Bay. Okay, okay, yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

If you actually do live in an urban area, it's a little more difficult, probably, to sleep. The sleep industry appears to be a booming one, aimed at younger adults. This is not the first time I've come across one of these stories, but this one was really good. It was specifically focused on the holidays, which, of course, art to your point, could have many different reasons, stress a lot of different things going on. But, however, news agency tech reviewers seen that found that adults will be willing to spend upwards of $78 a month, that's $900 a year, to improve the quality of their sleep.

Bill McGeeney:

And it doesn't stop there. Over half of the US adults employ some type of coping mechanism to deal with sleep deprivation. I mean, I do for coffee, a lot of coffee. However, 21% of them take supplements like melatonin. Now the focus of the survey was Q4 of 2024, which includes costly purchases like beds and mattresses. That make up the bulk of that $900 annually number. However, apparently, of the sample size, only 23% of the people surveyed didn't have any sleep-related challenges, just 23%. Supplements appear to be in a lead in the way of fixes, and I will note that at no point does the survey address the elephant in the room, that is both exterior light from light trespass from outside sources and interior light pollution from things like indicator lights, phones, air fresheners. For some reason, air fresheners have lights on them these days, but there's that, so consider yourself lucky, jeff. You probably have the healthiest nights of any of us here.

Jeff Schmalz:

You've got to embrace the darkness is what it is.

Bill McGeeney:

That's right. Join the dark side Okay.

Spencer Soohoo:

What's irritating is that a lot of indicator lights are now blue.

Bill McGeeney:

Yes, yep, and they're blue, probably because they think it blends into the dark. Well, I think some of those, like the air freshener ones. We come across these at Airbnbs we have to unplug five things just to make it a little dark in your place. Let's stop here. We'll pick up this conversation in two weeks. I'd like to thank my guests, crime prevention specialists and law enforcement veteran Art Hushen, dark Sky Redditor Jeff Schmaltz and researcher and Nostromo. Outreach participant and coordinator is Mr Spencer Suhu. Outreach participant and coordinator is Mr Spencer Suhu. As a reminder, if you heard anything you like on this show or heard anything that wants to shoot over a comment or a question, feel free to either text us via the link in today's show notes, via a podcast player, or send over an email to bill at lightpollutionnewscom. You can find us online at lightpollutionnewscom and on the socials Instagram, linkedin, tiktok, facebook and more.

Bill McGeeney:

Light Pollution News is a listener-supported show. Today's show was recorded on February 16, 2025. I'm your host, bill McGinney. Thank you for listening. Remember to only shine the light where it's needed. You.

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Bill McGeeney

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Art Hushen

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