Light Pollution News

April 2025: Shadow Cast!

• Light Pollution News / Bill McGeeney / Stephanie Vermillion / Shane Ludtke / Traci Cardinal • Season 3 • Episode 7

Share episode

This month's guests:

  • Stephanie Vermillion, Travel Journalist and Author.
  • Traci Cardinal, President of Dark Sky Ohio.
  • Shane Ludtke, host of the Actual Astronomy Podcast.


Bill's News Picks:


Subscribe:


Tag Us and Share with a Friend:


Connect:

Send Feedback Text to the Show!

Support the show

A hearty thank you to all of our paid supporters out there. You make this show possible.

For only the cost of one coffee each month you can help us to continue to grow. That’s $3 a month. If you like what we’re doing, if you think this adds value in any way, why not say thank you by becoming a supporter!

Why Support Light Pollution News?

  • Receive quarterly invite to join as live audience member for recordings with special Q&A session post recording with guests.
  • Receive all of the news for that month via a special Supporter monthly mailer.
  • Satisfaction that your support helps further critical discourse on this topic.


About Light Pollution News:

The path to sustainable starry night solutions begin with being a more informed you.

Light Pollution, once thought to be solely detrimental to astronomers, has proven to be an impactful issue across many disciplines of society including ecology, crime, technology, health, and much more!

But not all is lost! There are simple solutions that provide for big impacts. Each month, Bill McGeeney, is joined by upwards of three guests to help you grow your awareness and understanding of both the challenges and the road to recovering our disappearing nighttime ecosystem.

Bill McGeeney:

light pollution news april 2025 shadow cast. This week, we learned about an airport that has started down its path to become dark sky certified. Have you heard of the cautionary tale of glendale washington? We'll be sure to fill you in. And we learn about the one-knock tourism adventure you need to check off of your list in 2025. This month, I welcome Dark Sky Ohio's Tracy Cardinal, the actual astronomy podcast, shane Lukey, and author-travel writer Stephanie Vermillion. All this and more coming your way right now.

Bill McGeeney:

Welcome to Light Pollution News. I'm your host, bill McGinney. Each month, we gather news together. I bring all three great guests to help talk about it. Welcome to any first-time listeners out there joining us today as well. We do this show twice a month. Look at the topic that many folks probably aren't too aware of, and that's how artificial light at night actually shapes and changes our environment and society.

Bill McGeeney:

Before we get going today, I just want to make you aware of a few things. First, you can find anything we discuss, anything we discuss via the show link over at our website. That includes news links and much more, including a page that is dedicated strictly to ecology news. We have many ways for you to reach out to us. You can ask us questions, share comments or otherwise. Just connect with us. You can find all of those via the show notes and whatever podcast player you're using right now. Just click on the show details and you can find all that stuff in there. But to quickly summarize, you can also find us on Instagram, linkedin, tiktok and Facebook.

Bill McGeeney:

Finally, we have a good chunk of costs and the effort that go into bringing you this show twice a month. Some of that is covered by our gracious listeners, but we still have many big gaps we're looking to fill. Costs involve show production that's largely me including research and show builds. Show engineering that's our man, caden, and our robust social media program that's my wife, caitlin. If you like what we do, why not consider becoming a supporter? You can learn more about the benefits of being a supporter via today's show notes. The cost is very low starts at $3 a month, which makes it one of the cheapest ways you can continue to expand awareness and communication around the topic of a sustainable night. If you're able to, and you're able to find this value in what we do, why not support the show For you to listen to? Who already supports light pollution news? Thank you very much. Your assistance really does help us pay down some of our fixed costs each month. So thank you once more. Let's jump into it.

Bill McGeeney:

Today. We have a lot going on. First, let me introduce you to some truly great folks. I've really been hoping to have on you, tracy, and you, stephanie, for some time. First, let me welcome Tracy Cardinal to the show. Tracy, you are president of Dark Sky Ohio, but you also are much more than just that title implies. You have consulted communities and cities on lighting ordinances. You're heavily engaged in outreach in schools, colleges, other areas, and somehow you do all of this while holding down a pretty demanding day job Physician associate. I mean, that's not an easy day-to-day gig right there. So, tracy, welcome to Light Pollution News. What got you started down this path?

Traci Cardinal:

Well, first of all, bill, I want to say thank you to you for all that you do for light pollution. As an advocate, it's so nice to have this as a resource to jump on and listen to and see what's going on in light pollution, so it's so easy for me to talk to people in community and other advocates about what's going on. So thank you for what you do. To start out with, I was born and raised in northern Michigan in a really small town called Fife Lake, and one of my core memories was in seventh grade. We had an assignment to go out and map the constellations. So it was in the middle of winter and I had my snowsuit on and I marched out and there was two feet of snow and I laid in my front yard and I looked up at the sky and got my assignment done. Well, fast forward several years. I moved to Springfield Ohio and it was start of the pandemic 2020. And a little caveat it is that Springfield Ohio and it's a great place to live and we have a great community. It's very safe Moving on, so we live. It's a great place.

Traci Cardinal:

However, we have light pollution, like everywhere, and one night my daughter said she couldn't sleep and there was light coming in from her bedroom window and I went upstairs and we live maybe a quarter mile from a pretty big industrial trucking facility and she was right. I said this is crazy. So we had to get better blackout curtains and I thought to myself there's no way that she would be able to complete that assignment that I did that. She couldn't see what? Maybe one constellation. So again, it's pandemic. And I'm sitting around and I said I can do this, like I can change this. So I called the trucking industry and they didn't want to hear what I had to say. So I said really the only way that I could make change is to get a hold of my zoning department and see if we can make a light ordinance. So it's pandemic.

Traci Cardinal:

We did a Zoom meeting. I presented a bunch of ideas about how we could formulate a light pollution ordinance to maybe help my community and over the next year, year and a half, we actually had something passed. As I was learning more about light pollution, I got a hold of the folks that were in the original group of the chapter of Dark Sky Ohio, which are the founding members, and they're fantastic and they really set me on a path to be an advocate and to continue on with this progress all over the state. So now we have a great core group of board members. We're really making big strides here in Ohio. So I mean, when you think of Ohio, you don't think of dark skies, but we want to change that. So that's what we're doing. We're, you know, trying to make a difference in Ohio and make some improvement. So we are we're making some improvement.

Bill McGeeney:

Excellent, it's a very hopeful for all of us. You definitely do not think of dark skies in Ohio.

Traci Cardinal:

No.

Bill McGeeney:

And I can only picture you up in Northern Michigan in a winter time. God help you. That's great. I mean, that's kind of a similar story here, where I start this right after the pandemic. And you know, during a pandemic time when I had Paul Bogart on, I told him like life slowed down during a pandemic right.

Bill McGeeney:

So you had a chance to kind of evaluate what you cared about and what was really meaningful to you, chance to kind of evaluate what you cared about and what was really meaningful to you. I've known about the movement and been involved in different parts of it, but I really didn't take it seriously until after we started getting out of the pandemic and that's when I was like you know what? It's time? It's time to do something to have an impact. So I love hearing the story Tracy Great stuff, I'm glad you're with us today.

Bill McGeeney:

Next up, I want to switch over to someone we haven't had on in about a year. He's alongside with his partner in crime, chris Beckett. They're co-hosts of one of my favorite astronomy-related podcasts, the Actual Astronomy Podcast. If you aren't a listener and you want a true and true amateur astronomy podcast that isn't afraid to really go deep on the nerd spectrum, you'll want to check out the actual astronomy podcast. Shane, I can never say your last name, luduk. Yeah, it's kind of a funny one. Ludki. Ludki. What nationality? Where does that come?

Shane Ludtke:

from German, mostly German. Yeah, all right, yeah, yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

So, shane Ludki, it's a pleasure to have you back on man. How have you been, yeah?

Shane Ludtke:

Yeah, thanks. It's good to be back, bill. I've been really good, yeah, coming out of winter, which was a little harsher than I guess what we've sort of become accustomed to the last 10 or 15 years. But I guess what that really means is no real astronomy.

Bill McGeeney:

It's been cold it's been cloudy, but hoping to turn that around here real quick. And we went up to the other side of your country back in February and we stayed at Algonquin. I don't know if you've been to Algonquin.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Yeah beautiful.

Bill McGeeney:

Provincial park and a phenomenal park up there in Ontario. And for you at home, if you don't recall, Shane, you're in Saskatchewan. Where's, I guess, home?

Shane Ludtke:

Yeah, I'm in Regina, saskatchewan, so the capital city it's. If you're not too familiar with the location, we're sort of right in the middle of Canada Pretty easy province to draw. It's a rectangle, so always always got good marks on that in school when you had to draw the map. But one of the nice things about this province is the geographic size is enormous. You could fit all of the UK within our province and still have a lot of space. But there's only, like I don't know, maybe 1.2 million people that live in the entire province and most of that is within our two large cities.

Shane Ludtke:

So it's pretty easy to find some dark skies and, as such, astronomy or amateur astronomy is a pretty good hobby to take up here because you don't have to travel too far to have really, really good skies. And in fact some of the darkest skies in North America that are easily accessible are about three hours from my house and there's absolutely no light pollution there. It's Grasslands National Park and it's a very special place and probably one of my favorite places in the world. But to have skies that pristine are just incredible and you know I've told many people this story. In fact I probably said it when I was here last time, bill is. There's been many nights where I'm observing at the telescope and I like to just record my observations on a pad of paper and I'll notice that my pen is casting a shadow on the paper and like there's no light there that other than starlight and it's just that pristine that you know the starlight is is able to cast a shadow if you look for it.

Bill McGeeney:

So it's a great observation shane when you're under a milky way sky. When you're under a dark sky, it's actually not dark, right like when you're out in the open, in a field, under a dark sky, you can actually see a lot of that light from the stars.

Shane Ludtke:

The milky way casts a pretty bright glow onto you, like onto where you're at absolutely, and you know, if jupiter happens to be up that night, or venus, those will even cast their own shadow while you're out, you know, under a really pristine sky like that now the the other side of that coin is it doesn't take much for somebody to really annoy you with a light because it is so dark. So when there's other campers there sometimes they're just not as familiar with you, know proper light practices and you know it can be a little frustrating. But it's also a moment to educate people, which I kind of embrace.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, it's an ongoing educational experience, right.

Shane Ludtke:

Absolutely, yeah. Well, it's an ongoing educational experience, right? Absolutely, yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, lastly, I want to welcome a guest who recently had a big new book come out Stephanie Vermillion. Stephanie, I came across your name months back, actually, in some of my article polls for the show. You have a ton of articles in Outside Magazine and I mean they were coming through and I was like, well, this sounds like a great person to have on. And then, of course, you go and do dark sky and they, they beat me to it every time. Yeah, it's great to have you here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Stephanie Vermillion:

Thanks so much for having me. First of all, I am really excited to be here and to be with such knowledgeable people. I love hearing and learning about the night sky from people. That's my favorite part about my job is surrounding myself with really smart experts and learning a lot and then sharing that with the world. So I'm a Cleveland-based adventure travel journalist for publications like National Geographic, Outside, like you mentioned, Travel and Leisure, Vogue etc.

Stephanie Vermillion:

And through this work I get to really cover things I'm interested in, which a big reason I'm here is the night sky. It's funny you mentioned outside, because I actually just this year started an astro tourism column with them and I think that shows just how many people are interested in the night sky. Almost every publication now is publishing news about eclipses, meteor showers. I saw that Martha Stewart Living now publishes almost like monthly columns about the night sky and I love it. It's so exciting to see all of this interest, and so that's my job is just kind of stoking this awe and interest among astro tourists and getting to talk to really cool people and report on cool things happening in the world of travel. So it's a pretty fun job.

Bill McGeeney:

And you just had a new book 100 Nights of a Lifetime the World's Ultimate Adventures After Dark. This book is a compilation of pretty much 100 best things you can do on a planet after dark. So where did the inspiration for this come from? What drove you to come up with this guy?

Stephanie Vermillion:

I realized I was looking at the market and there wasn't. This was gosh, cause you know how long it takes for books to come together a long time, it was like half a decade. And so I, like five years ago I was looking at my bookshelf and I was like I don't think there are that many astro tourism books out there. So I get proposed this to a Nat Geo editor. She came back and she's like well, why don't we include all sorts of after dark adventures? And that got me so excited, because I have had so many after dark experiences on my travels and it was really fun to kind of think beyond just stargazing, because when you're out there I imagine it's like this at grasslands, which is so high on my bucket list You're out there watching the stars, but you're also hearing things. You can hear sometimes crickets, you can hear nocturnal animals. It's a very multi-sensory experience and I think when we talk about stargazing, astrotourism, it often is about looking up, but there's so much else going on, and so that was a really fun part of this book is I got to explore all sorts of after dark happenings.

Stephanie Vermillion:

So the animal kingdom. You know there's twilight safaris where you can go out and see these animals at night that you never would see by day. In many places. That also, then means it's not even about seeing, it's more about hearing. So a lot of the experiences in the book like taking a boat ride in the Amazon at night it's all about hearing and I think it's kind of fun to think about the different ways we can experience the world because we are such visual creatures. And, yeah, it kind of was like peeling back an onion. The more I went with what can I do at night, I was like, wow, I have way more than 100 experiences to include. So that's that's the best ones that were in that book and I'm really excited about it.

Bill McGeeney:

How's the reception been for the book?

Stephanie Vermillion:

Great. So what actually worked really well in my favor? So the book came out in December 2024. And I think it was November 2024, in I think it was November 2024, bookingcom released a survey that called knock tourism, so nocturnal tourism the number one travel trend for 2025. So with that there was so much media coverage already about nighttime adventures and my book coming out, it almost was this like perfect, I don't know, just like this perfect alignment where all of a sudden, because of that study and people getting really excited about knock tourism and like the next stage of astro tourism, travel media loves, like any news books, as you probably know, and that, plus my book, I just was able to get 100 nights in so many different publications, and so it's been wonderful and I think at least maybe people are being nice when they say this, but I do think it is inspiring people to go see the world at night a little bit more than they have.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, I think it's definitely having a moment. Astro tourism and knock tourism is definitely having a moment. It's great to see and I hope that people are picking up the book for the first time and actually thinking about their relationship with the night. I know, when I look outside my window, because I live here in Philadelphia, when we have cloudy nights it is astoundingly bright. I mean, it's not just a little bit of sky glow, it's full on. You have light coming through the window, it's very bright, it's full on. You have light coming through the window. It's very bright. It's a very pale sky, very white.

Bill McGeeney:

A lot of your activities that you came across or that you want to document were activities that really showcase, say, the contrast of light with the darkness. I feel like we're going to be losing that and I feel like we already, to a degree, have here, at least in the States I don't know how it is for you, shane up in Canada in the holidays we have events with so many lights that it's kind of like the reindeer is trying to outpower Santa Claus, who's trying to outpower you know, the tree. And is this something that you ever worry about when it comes to tourism Like these? These activities are so much based on that contrast right.

Stephanie Vermillion:

I think that as an astrotourism writer, it's a really good chance for me to educate readers, and that's something I'm always trying to find ways to do that aren't preachy, because the second you get preachy, people are onto the next article. Because the second you get preachy, people are onto the next article. But I think that astrotourism is a really great way to open people's eyes to what we're losing with the dark skies. You know, when they visit dark skies they're like, wow, I never knew you could see that many stars. And then I think, if you can bridge that to, then well, why can you see them here? Oh, there's light pollution measures.

Stephanie Vermillion:

I think that it's just interesting that, among so many problems in our world, I feel like people, unless they really are paying attention, they don't know that or they don't even consider light pollution is a problem. And I think of course, people in our bubbles do. But I think trying to get the general masses more engaged could help with what you're talking about, that contrast in our backyards. So I mean, yeah, it's absolutely a problem, but I try to be optimistic, because it's hard not to be. You know, it's hard to stay optimistic right now sometimes, but I'm trying to stay optimistic and with astrotourism, I just I think that I have an opportunity to help people learn.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, and you mentioned, one of the things that I love and got me really into amateur astronomy was the fact that I can go outside and I can do something at night and I get to hear a totally different part of the day. And you hear the crickets, you hear the foxes, you hear the owls it's always fun when I hear an owl while I'm out observing. There's just nothing like it. It's just this feels like you have a buddy who's just right there in a tree.

Bill McGeeney:

Okay, well, while we start off this month with a fun one, have you guys ever seen anything quite like this? It's technically a street light, I guess, if by that definition, the street light you are specifying has a roadside pole and a lighted fixture at the top. Over in Shandong, china, there is an undulating purple green sea green fixture type thing and the video says it's a jellyfish, which I guess I can see based on the fluidity of the movement, where the interior legs flip outward and back again, mimicking the underwater movement of the jellyfish. I don't know if you guys got a chance to actually look at this video, but my question to you guys, my esteemed panel over here if you could make a second sea creature like contraption. What would it be?

Stephanie Vermillion:

One that I really would love to see outside of my window, instead of the glaring, just random street light that I have, is a manta ray, because they're considered the ballerinas of the sea, because they loop de loop, as they, you know, dance through the water, and I feel like that could be so pretty, especially if it's like a nice kind of cool blue color, something that looks a little bioluminescent, and really dark skies, obviously. I think it'd be perfect. So manta ray, all right, anyone else yeah?

Traci Cardinal:

My favorite animal has always been a dolphin. Again, being from Ohio and Michigan, I don't know how that happened, but a dolphin, I would love to see a dolphin.

Bill McGeeney:

Staying in the sea theme here, okay.

Traci Cardinal:

Exactly.

Bill McGeeney:

Sense something here. Shane, you have any ideas? Is it like a I don't know grizzly bear or something? What do you guys have out there in Saskatchewan?

Shane Ludtke:

No, no, grizzlies. We have some black bears, but I don't know. That's a good question. Maybe I'll go with plankton, just because they're so small, and then hopefully the lights will be really small too.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I might have to scrape them off things, I guess, right, I don't know. Okay, before I take us down the health road tonight I came across a chapter in the Old One Saga, this Breckenridge's potential star sky ordinance. And for you listening at home, if you guys have been with us, you no doubt remember the last one that we had on here this month.

Bill McGeeney:

Self-proclaimed Dark Sky's loving neuropsychologist chastised members of the Dark Sky community for what he deemed as mischaracterizations or, as he put it, truthiness. From Summit Daily, Wendell Grogan states outdoor lighting has zero effect on health. In addition, he cast doubt on characterizations of light pollution as a potential cause for bird population decline. One of the main reasons I started this podcast was to create a way and a place for anyone who's interested in understanding the topic to have a resource to stay up to date and kind of maintain a well-versed understanding of what the actual facts are. Tracy, I'm going to actually pick on you, since you run a dark sky chapter here. I feel like Grogan is talking via a rather narrow application of the studies on these topics. What would you say to folks with a similar retort? Is he right or is there a communication deficit?

Traci Cardinal:

Well, I again, as you said in the beginning, I also have a background in the medical field. I have a master's in medical science as well, so it's interesting to hear somebody else that works in the medical arena to weigh in on this. So, first off, he said it has zero effect and, in general, I would say that there's a mountain of evidence that says otherwise. I would say that there's a mountain of evidence that says otherwise. You had a really good episode a couple of months ago with Dr Mario on where you kind of went into you did a deep dive on this. So most of the evidence is correlation evidence.

Traci Cardinal:

The two studies that I found that said that it didn't really have much effect were from 2022. There was a breast cancer study that showed no association between breast cancer and outdoor light exposure, and then there was another study from the same year 2022, where they looked at liver cancer, and both of those studies said that there was no association. However, there was limitations because they use satellite data. That being said, again, as we know you've talked about it endlessly on your show that there's amount of evidence that says otherwise, from neurodegenerative disorders to diabetes, mental health issues. So there's a lot of evidence that said that there is a fact. Now, most of the effects that we looked at is again correlational studies, but those are important. Those are still really important. So, as a medical provider, if I had a patient that came up to me and said, hey, does outdoor light affect me? Then I would have to say yes. So I'm definitely going to have to disagree with his stance on this.

Bill McGeeney:

I think it's tough right, because in that episode Dr Mata pointed, I think, to two major studies that were a little more than just, I guess, these small M-value studies. And I don't know if that breast cancer study was another small sample population, I don't know what the size on that. But you have a whole bunch of these studies out there that use I call it a generalized light pollution assessment, but I don't know how you translate that and this goes both ways. This goes for ones that say there's an issue to ones that say there's no issue. I don't know how you translate that over into a causation effect, right?

Traci Cardinal:

Right. Again, I know that we need to have more studies where they have light monitors that people actually see what you're getting inside compared to outside, and I know those, those studies are coming. But still, all of these correlational studies even some of them there were self assessments done to that people would say how much light they had in their house, but overwhelmingly they said that light pollution from outside light affects your health. Again, there's there's mountains of evidence that say that. So I'm not quite sure what his point was. To say that has zero effect, because in the beginning he said that he does appreciate the night sky. I think that the jury's ultimately still out until we get concrete data. But again, I would guide people to say that it probably does affect your health. Just because of the evidence that we currently have, that could change. But right now that's where we would stand. We would say it does affect your health, those ones that affect you know.

Traci Cardinal:

Again, it affects your circadian rhythm because of the light sensors in our eyes. We have specific cells in our eyes that are. The only way that they turn on is with light, which is this interesting thing that we've evolved to have and that's how it functions. So if you are outside and you're coming home and it's like daylight and you don't have blackout, blackout curtains, which how many of us do? If we live in a light polluted area, you open the window for just a second to see out and the light pours in Again. It makes sense. Just you know from a you know a basic science, that it's going to affect you. It affects your circadian rhythm. Therefore, it affects your health.

Bill McGeeney:

On the flip side. You need sunlight in the morning, so Exactly, and we know that too Exactly.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, in North Dakota, the Senate of the fine state shot down resolution 4004, which would have been a proclamation simply designed to raise awareness around the issue of light pollution. One senator Republican, todd Beard he may not have read the bill at all, because he was worried about the communities and businesses enduring safety hazards by turning off the lights during bird migration season. Per the proclamation, only unnecessary lights during bird migration season will be requested to be turned off, and that is generally taken to mean decorative building lights, advertising, etc. I doubt very much. It means street lights, but the senator is probably wiser than I am. The resolution garnered one committee member vote, and that was by Republican Justin Gerhardt, who, noting, as a father of four, if there's any way to get them to turn off the lights when they leave room, I needed to encourage that. So hey, you know, whatever, whatever it takes. I guess let's swing over to the actual health front now, and I have a prediction by Katie Wells.

Bill McGeeney:

Katie Wells is a podcaster that runs wellness mama podcast. I don't suppose any of you guys have ever heard the show. Okay, I haven't either. I never heard of Katie Wells, but God bless her. I hope she's done great work. I did come across her wellness trend predictions for 2025. And the reason I actually included it in the show this week is because she's not the only person in this space. There's kind of a unifying strain of a thread of material here and Wells is kind of amplifying some of the other voices in this space. So I figured you know she did a good job pointing to Garrett what the hell?

Bill McGeeney:

Wells puts together a list of eight predictions she's making based on trends that she sees on social media and in the blogosphere. Two of them are related to the very topic of light trespass and unneighborly nighttime lighting practices. At number four, wells wagers that there will be continued trend toward recognizing the importance of light and circadian rhythms. And at number seven, sleep hygiene. Wells even mentions the need for blackout curtains Tracy due to light pollution, which would presumably interfere with one's sleep. Presumably interfere with one's sleep. Last month I spoke about the CNET survey that found that people are open to spending a lot of dough on having a good night's sleep, because apparently most people actually don't have good night's sleep. It seems like we have opposing trends. One side, there are many health-related influencers. It's kind of like a cottage industry almost dedicated to selling circadian-friendly lighting products, or even ones that are supposed to maximize certain bodily effects, say smooth skin, for example. We've even been approached by such folks. However, there's also an obvious countervailing trend to eliminate night First.

Bill McGeeney:

We have this astoundingly bright streetlights right, which Stephanie already mentioned. Municipalities really take next to no care to focus the light away from people's properties unless the people go knocking on a municipality's door for help. Shielding's often an afterthought. We have an astoundingly bright neighbors who light up their properties as if they're expecting a prison outbreak. I was actually on a field last night and a neighbor probably I want to say 200, maybe 300 feet away was casting a shadow straight through the woods. It was pretty astounding how far that light went. And we have buildings and architects and lighting designers that join forces to make every building look not just like a glow stick but like an old school game of asteroid. So at what point does our inability to endure proper sleep hygiene all break down? Is it already breaking down? Is that what we're seeing here?

Traci Cardinal:

I'm going to jump in and say that it starts with kids. So I'm a mom, I have two young daughters and I think it starts when they're young. So if I look at kids, they're afraid of the dark. We get all these fancy nightlights and when does that transition to say, hey, now we know that light is bad. So the nightlight industry when I took a look at a study that it's a $2.1 billion market that's expected to increase in rate 5.5%. So when do we tell people light is bad?

Traci Cardinal:

We give all these lights to our kids to tell them they can't sleep. And then now, just now, we're expecting them oh, get the blackout lights and turn off all the lights. So I think that it's. You know, it's like you say. It's kind of an interesting thing that we have. We raise kids to need a nightlight and then we have to tell them as adults to turn it off. So maybe that's why that neighbor wants to turn on these 5000 Kelvin lights at night because they had nightlights in their bedroom as kids. I don't know. Again, I think it is very interesting to me. So I'm one of those moms that turn it off the nightlights If you have a nightlight in your room instead of the blue nightlife, let's maybe turn it to a yellow or amber one. So again, I think it's just that education piece that if we can start when they're kids, maybe these adults won't be so afraid of the dark at night. Don't know.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Yeah, and I'll say, when I was reading about this I found it very interesting and it's so timely, just as the world weighs, capitalism and everything, how like we've built an entire market of products. When I was clicking through some of the links on the Wellness Mama website and PowerTour everyone has to make money but I was like, oh, blackout curtains, that's interesting. And then I clicked through and I was like I could have purchased 10 different things to help my sleep by the time I got to the end of this article where I think the solution probably would be better if I just didn't have a streetlight outside of my window, blaring light into our room every single night. So I think one just a random thought about capitalism and such.

Bill McGeeney:

Stephanie, I think you're you're on it. I think that's. That's exactly right.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Yeah, yeah. And well, I was going to say too and, tracy, you kind of mentioned this, I think the just the awareness too of I think people don't even realize that we can fix this. I'm complaining about the street light outside of my window. Have I done anything about it? No, you're just kind of like it's easier to just like buy an eye mask, buy blackout curtains or whatever. But there are solutions and there are people working toward these solutions in your community and that's inspiring me actually, after this podcast, to go out and kind of find other people I can maybe rally with.

Bill McGeeney:

Here in the city, there's actually like an LED streetlights, email and you say hey, I would like to have shielding for this and and they'll'll after a few rounds and they try and drag their feet. But the moral of the story is it can actually happen, you can get shielding and they might even turn it down for a night or two, but they can give you shielding, which is really the long last impact. So I would definitely look in your community, see what your community has to offer in terms of contacts to see if you can get shielding and if enough people actually go out and request shielding. It's going to become the de facto way to do things, and I think that Stephanie hit the nail on the head that most people would rather just be like. This is my plight, this is what I have to bear, instead of actually, you know, being proactive about it.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Yeah, I didn't know that. That's it. So it's similar to like when our oven broke, I was like it'll fix itself and six months later it did. That's the approach I'm taking with this, and it's like such an easy solve. So, thank you, I'm going to look into that absolutely critical.

Shane Ludtke:

You know, even as an amateur astronomer, you know, I sort of. You know, if there was a job description, I think there'd be a bullet on there that said you got to know about light pollution and the effects and all of that kind of stuff. The thing is is I didn't really know anything about light pollution other than it washed out the galaxies and the things that I was trying to observe. And then there's some passionate folks in the astronomy community around here. My podcasting co-host, Chris, is one of them.

Shane Ludtke:

But Rick Husiak delivered a presentation on the non-astronomical impacts of light pollution and it blew my mind Like I really did not know what it did to nature, what it did to our health, and none of it is positive. So learning that really helped me understand like, like a whole bunch of new reasons why this is super important for people to start to learn about and become aware. And then you know also, the other side is, you know, I don't think we're necessarily saying get rid of all lights, but we're saying, you know, only have lights that you need, make sure they're shielded and they point down and that they're not too bright, you know, and that there's a lot of different ways people can contribute positively to nighttime lighting, which again, I think is all about that awareness. You know that is important to build.

Bill McGeeney:

Staying on the topic of circadian rhythms here, via the proceedings of the Royal Society B, a team of researchers looked at 54 published sleep studies and found that the industrialized world actually spends more time sleeping in bed than folks in the non-industrialized communities, and David Sampson attribute this to a general sense of physical safety in industrialized sleep environments versus trying to vie for spots with animals or rival humans, I guess. However, to flip side, us industrialized sleepers actually appear out of touch with nature's daily rhythms and hence increased propensity for having circadian rhythm alignment problems. I was initially drawn to this article through a new scientist.

Bill McGeeney:

It's not odd to hear from people having miserable sleep. Stephanie, when I do backcountry trips, it's amazing. Sleep is totally different. You go to bed when the sun goes down, you wake up when the sun comes up and your body feels great. There's just no better way to put it. Best sleep of my life is when I'm in the back country, not when I'm actually home.

Bill McGeeney:

It's really tough, I think, to get that in alignment, especially I had a dog. You know what do I do before I go to bed? I have to take my dog for a walk and you go under these really bright streetlights, so you don't have that natural kind of like come down, because right before you go to bed you are out there walking through this and then you come back inside and then you're going to jump right in bed. So, yeah, I think everything you guys said is pretty important. One more thing on this topic astrotourism is having this chance to actually show the world what nighttime is about, and obviously, stephanie, you've profusely written on the topic, so before we jump in there, you just came out with a new book. So what is your number one astrotourism, nocturism related thing that people need to see this year?

Stephanie Vermillion:

The Northern Lights. I will shout this from the rooftop every single night. I can. The Northern Lights right now do it? Do not wait.

Stephanie Vermillion:

We are in the period of solar maximum, which is the roughly 11 year peak of Northern Lights activity, which I'm sure all of your listeners know by now. But just this week this is around the spring equinox the Northern Lights have been absolutely bonkers. Sadly, I'm in Cleveland and I haven't been seeing them. If the skies were clear I probably would. I'm looking out the window now to see if I could possibly see them later, but they have been going just crazy and I think this is not only a good time to just, you know, to go chase the Northern Lights, but because they're at a really high intensity, especially when you're traveling up north, you're actually seeing the colors.

Stephanie Vermillion:

I think that's one thing I've found with the lower latitude sightings that we had last year is I watched them in Cleveland, and one we have light pollution. And two you know we're a lot further South than, say, fairbanks but people are like, oh, you can't even see them, it's just my phone, and I just kind of like let it lie. But I really do tell people like when you're up North and it's dark and they're powerful like they have been because of this wonderful solar maximum period we're in. You can actually see colors. You're not seeing what the camera sees because the camera is much more sensitive to light, but in on a recent trip up to the Yukon I was seeing bright greens with my eyes and red.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Like you, you can see colors in the lights and it kind of gets frustrating because so many people love to be contrarian and be like no, it's just your camera, it's not actually what you see. If you see a good show, it's really awesome and now is the time to go see that show. So we're in solar maximum roughly until about like either this fall or the end of the year, but it's not like it's just going to drop off and then we'll have no activity. So if you can plan your trip, I would say the fall equinox has always been really successful for me. But even, you know, into next year, the year after, just I would say, don't wait on the Northern lights and they're just so great, I love them.

Bill McGeeney:

Oh, you guys, Tracy and Shane, you guys practically grew up with Northern Lights, right yeah?

Shane Ludtke:

they're kind of annoying sometimes. No, no, I know Just for astronomy purposes, but they are so beautiful I really I really do enjoy them. And yes, stephanie, we've had some great outbursts within the last six to 12 months that have just been unreal Like. In fact it was last weekend, I think my wife and I were driving home just in the city from a concert and I knew that there was some high level cloud but that the KP forecast for auroral activity was quite high that night.

Shane Ludtke:

And as we were driving, my wife said is that aurora? And I just quickly dismissed it because I said no, no, like there's cloud tonight. You know there's no way we would be seeing that. And then, you know, I'm also driving trying to keep my eyes on the road, so I wasn't really looking too hard. But as we approached home I was like holy smokes, that is Aurora poking through the cloud, like it was unbelievable. And in the fall there was another outburst where even from my light polluted backyard, some kind of pink tones, red tones, maybe even a little bit of purplish was visible, which, to see that from a light polluted sky, like just tells you about the intensity. And yeah, see it if you can, because this is this is just a great time.

Traci Cardinal:

Yeah, the first time I ever saw the Northern Lights again, I was in Northern Michigan and I had no idea what it was. I was driving home late at night and I thought it might've been fireworks or something and I said, what is that? And it was again an amazing experience. And this last summer I think, as everyone knows, that people were posting all over Facebook about seeing the Northern Lights, especially getting excited about seeing it down here in Ohio. And this is where we can all, as advocates, jump in and say hey, you know, let's talk about light pollution too. So anytime there's big events that happen in astronomy, I think it's a great way for us to also lead that into. You could see a little bit more, maybe if there wasn't so much light pollution. So I like this time because we can also segue right into how we can see it better.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I saw it for the first time back in October and it just because it dipped down this low and was able to go upstate and we got right on a lake and I think there's maybe 15 other people that had the same idea of us. So thank god there wasn't too many people out there thinking the same thing and and we just hung out and watched the show and it initially got over us probably about like 97 of the sky, and then it it went back and just became like green on the horizon, which I initially thought was light pollution. That was my initial thought, because it kind of had that glow that you get. But the difference was it was moving. So you know, you look at it and you look away and you look at it again and be like, oh, you know what that's, it's not in the same spot. Stephanie, any good suggestions on where people should go? Just anywhere. Just drive, if you're allowed, into Canada, because whatever we're doing is In Canada, don't, please let us in.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Kewanaw Peninsula on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has always been really lucky for me Super dark. A lot of the shoreline is north-facing because from the lower latitude region you want a view that is unobstructed to the north, because often they appear here lower, closer to the horizon. So the Kewanaw Peninsula is great for that. Northern Minnesota is also really ideal because it has a ton of lakes, so that gives you that wide, open north facing view. If you are willing to travel, which I highly recommend, I just had really great luck in the Yukon.

Stephanie Vermillion:

Like I mentioned, I was in Dawson City. Unfortunately it was cloudy there, but in Whitehorse I was actually out ice fishing and the Northern Lights were just going bonkers. So ice fishing beneath the Northern Lights in Whitehorse was probably one of my favorite nights of the past decade. And I've always had a lot of success in Iceland as well because, especially, I'm often out there like Northern Lights choosing by myself, and I love Iceland because it is safe. There are no animals that will kill you. When I've been Northern Lights hunting in Greenland by myself, I'm always like, okay, is that a polar bear or is that ice breaking? What's happening? But in Iceland. It's you just feel, I don't know. I feel like I can just kind of relax a little bit out there instead of being worried. So those are my favorites.

Bill McGeeney:

Ice fishing under the northern lights. I think that takes the cake right there. All right, Did you catch anything that night? Just by chance?

Stephanie Vermillion:

Oh, our guide did by ice fishing. I was watching them fish while I was running around taking photos. I contributed nothing, but did have a really good fresh caught meal. So thank you to our guide.

Bill McGeeney:

That's all that matters, right? All right, so here's some additional ideas. How about this? Perhaps next time you visit Arizona, why not stop by Tucson, take part in the Astro Trail? It's kind of like a think beer trail, but there's no alcohol or breweries. Instead and Shane, you might appreciate this you get to visit the Fondrell Planetarium, the Stewart Observatory and even the Richard F Karras Mirror Lab. I feel like there's a certain type of person that will really love this tour.

Bill McGeeney:

And if you're an amateur astronomer living in the southeastern part of the United States, why not call up the Atlanta Astronomy Club, which has the Deerlick Astronomy Village, which sits 90 miles away from City of Traffic Jams and it's a cleared area up in the eastern central Piedmont region of Georgia? The village has a shared field with electrical towers and all, and it has a 10-acre site that is essentially the southern answer to the northeast Cherry Springs State Park. I will say that the price point is actually much nicer in Cherry Springs, whom, if you are not aware, just upped their price on a field to $25 per vehicle. Prices for Deer Lake Aschami Village range from $5 to $20, depending on what you plan to sleep in, and they even have a very reasonably priced annual pass, again something that DCNR here in pa is planning to do away with.

Bill McGeeney:

Down in south africa, the minister of science, technology and innovation and I love this name blade nismandi, outlined an astro tourism plan. South africa is looking to capitalize on the current trend by bringing in high-end night sky experiences to tourists. Stephanie, I got to ask this. I like my activities, I guess. More natural, I'm not a glamper. There's no part of my soul that's a glamper, and I would rather just backpack down a trail somewhere, tent up and just keep going and find a spot. However, there are these extreme glamping-oriented activities that seem to be the rage for astro, for astro tourism at the moment. Is it only an industry for super rich? How's a normal person actually go and see this stuff?

Stephanie Vermillion:

I get this question a lot and I think, more than anything, this is a travel media problem. If you look at magazines, if you look at publications, we're always covering the you know the glitziest new glamping grounds or the flashiest new XYZ star beds in you know the middle of Kenya, and I think that's because it's newsy and it's flashy and it sells to editors. But I think and I try to do this more with my outside column on astrotourism because the audience is more interested in this kind of stuff. But I do think there are just so many lower cost astrotourism experiences out there. They're just not what you're seeing in the headlines and I think that is where kind of the disconnect is is it's not that they're everything in astrotourism is for the rich, it's the. Everything that is covered about astrotourism is often the flashy new XYZ star beds made out of bamboo pulled from you know the forest 5 million, whatever, and so it's.

Stephanie Vermillion:

I think that that is really the biggest thing and I think that as travel journalists, we need to do a better job of covering things from all budget levels, because not everyone has, you know, 10 grand to sink in a trip to go stargazing in South Africa. So I long story short. Yeah, I think that is something that someone like me can do even more is just share the budget experiences, because the majority of us who want to see the stars, like you were saying, I just want to find something that someone like me can do even more is just share the budget experiences, cause the majority of us who want to see the stars, like you were saying, I just want to find a cool campsite where I can peek out of my tent, you know, every five minutes or whatever, yeah, or maybe not even have to fly on or just cowboy it.

Bill McGeeney:

You know, maybe not in Iceland it might be a little cold, but you know this came in from our past guests. A fellow author, stephanie this is a friend of the show Danny Robertson, dropped us a line on Instagram sharing us a press release that was titled the Stars Align as Wales Leads the UK in Dark Skies Protection, whereby Wales boasts the highest percentage of protected dark skies in the world A fact I did not know, and congratulations to all the hard work out therey, jack and all of you guys and other designation news. This one is really cool. The jackson hole airport is continuing down a road to become the first dark sky certified airport.

Bill McGeeney:

The airport is installing motion activated parking lot lights which actually raise the level when motion is detected, kind of like walking into a room, and then the lighting internally in a terminal actually is also monitored for based on use and based on case, and it will be variable depending on as needed. Runway and tower lights will not be impacted. Those are FAA regulated standards. This is pretty cool. I think Jackson Hole actually holds a promise of showing at the very least, how to do responsible lighting outside the box. You know they're working with the confines that they have and that's. That's pretty, pretty interesting stuff. I don't know if you guys have ever have seen any good airport lighting. I know there are some good stadium lights that certain terminals will use.

Stephanie Vermillion:

I haven't seen good airport lighting, but I will say that one thing that excites me about this is seeing the dark sky movement spread into different categories. It was late 2023 when Dark Sky International introduced its dark sky lodging, and that has been really exciting to see different elements of tourism adopt dark sky initiatives, because the tourism for astro tourism actually can bring unwanted light to these places that we're trying to protect, and so this is the first I've heard of an airport doing that, which is really exciting to see how people are getting creative with dark skies. Which is really exciting to see how people are getting creative with dark skies.

Bill McGeeney:

If you can have one good model of what you can do. You know you can always point to that and kind of build upon that. And good luck to Jackson hole. Want to round out our designations this month? Let's welcome sisters Oregon on becoming an international dark sky community, the seventh dark sky place in Oregon. New Zealand's Tawana Glenarchy becomes the nation's fifth international dark sky sanctuary, and France chalks up another international dark sky reserve, l'indégason Regional National Park, the sixth one in France.

Bill McGeeney:

To close out tonight, I do want to bring this one up A Tale of Foreboding Warning, an opinion piece by bob yosel in the columbia gorge news. Yosel recounts the tale of goldendale, washington. Goldendale, which is a home to the goldendale observatory, which houses a 24 and a half inch reflector for clark college in vancouver, washington. The observatory became an international dark sky park in 2010. However, by 2013, changes in the town's political environment saw an abandonment of their previous pledges to preserve night. He also claims that Washington State Representative Republican Gina Mossbroker pressured the town to rework their outdoor lighting ordinance in favor of a less restrictive one. In favor of a less restrictive one. And in 2017, dark Sky International decertified Glendale Observatory State Park, which is the only such decertification that have taken place.

Bill McGeeney:

I think when people hear dark skies, they're reflexive, believe that that means there's no light. And, tracy, you seem to have hit on something early on talking about starts with kids, right? I feel like so much of this. I think what muddies the message is a fear of that word dark. I don't know about you, I don't think I have ever told anyone this, and maybe Shane has. When he's at that, he's out in the field in Saskatchewan yelling at people to turn off their lights. But when you're in a community, you don't want to turn off all the lights. You know, when you're in a community, you don't want to turn off all the lights. You want people to feel safe. You want people to be able to be confident in what they do each day. Right? The word dark, I feel like, sometimes carries pretty big baggage. Do you have any thoughts on that? How do you work with that in Ohio?

Traci Cardinal:

So a lot of when we talk to government leaders and city leaders, we've been trying to get away from that because of what you just said is that people think, oh, dark means we can't have any lighting. So we've been trying to transition to smart lighting or sustainable lighting, because that provides a solution. There, too is that we're talking about lighting, we just want different kind of lighting, and it really opens up the door to, oh okay, smart lighting. When we talk to city leaders, again most city leaders think I'm going to put in all these new lights and look what I've done. I've made a tangible difference in my community. I've put in all these bright lights.

Traci Cardinal:

And again, it's just lack of education. They just don't know that with improving your lighting, if you don't put in the right lighting, it can also be detrimental to your community. So what we're trying to do in Ohio is when we speak to people as we say let's use sustainable lighting, let's use smart lighting, and that kind of opens the door for them to the solution as well. It's not just the problem of no lights, it's we're going to give you a solution with sustainable lighting, smart lighting, to get away from that, the fear of being dark we're not going to have any lights.

Bill McGeeney:

Earlier on, you said that people were mostly afraid of dark because you know they grew up with these lights and they grew up with little nighttime lights, and then you know hallway lights and you name it. I have to feel like that's the case. I feel like so much of it is that people are just afraid of the dark and they will rationalize any excuse to put a barrier, put an emotional block on being able to have that conversation.

Traci Cardinal:

Right, and I think another great point that you made with bringing up this, this article, is that we can't just stop with putting in an ordinance that this is a really good example of. We need to do more as advocates once you have that ordinance in place, to follow up with it. So, again, calling in for violations and, yes, you don't want to be that neighbor that's going to complain about you know the new gas station that they put in, that isn't against the ordinance, but you have to to say, hey, this isn't following the ordinance. The other thing that we're trying to do is bring positive light to those people that are that are following the ordinance. So Dark Sky Week is coming up in April.

Traci Cardinal:

One of the things that we're trying to do is to highlight for free, give some free promotion to those people in the area that do have sustainable lighting, do have down shielded lighting. So we're going to say, hey, look at your government leaders, change the ordinance, these people are following it and everybody wins. So, number one, calling out the people that aren't following it and then, number two, rewarding the people that are. So that way, we're talking about it and somebody hopefully doesn't come in and railroad your ordinance that we make a big deal of it, but that takes again. It takes people being on the ball and takes advocates that care. So it's just. Again it goes down to education and maybe finding different ways of getting that conversation going.

Bill McGeeney:

I think that's a good spot to wrap up, Tracy. I like that. I want to thank my excellent panel of guests, starting with you, Tracy. Tracy, Cardinal, the president of dark sky Ohio, If you happen to be in the area, definitely look them up. All for lending hand. I'm sure, Tracy, you will definitely say hey, come on, join the team.

Traci Cardinal:

Yep, come on down.

Bill McGeeney:

Right, mr Shane Lucky co -host of one of my favorite podcasts, the actual astronomy podcast. If you're an amateur astronomer who likes to get in the weeds of everything from astronomical related activities to the tools of the trade, the actual astronomy podcast is for you. Definitely, give Shane and Chris a good listen. They do a great job over there. And I want to also thank Stephanie Vermillion for coming out today Her new book A Hundred Nights of a Lifetime the World's Ultimate Adventures After Dark.

Bill McGeeney:

I have it right here. In the book, stephanie details some of the activities that we've discussed in this very show, including the Star Train in Eli. Remember we spoke about that months back in this very show, including the Star Train in Eli. I remember we spoke about that months back. Eli Nevada A midnight sun paddling session up to Yukon, which sounds pretty awesome. That sounds incredible, and apparently here's one of the ones that I've done during the daytime, but I had no idea they ran this during a full moon. The Via Ferrata in West Virginia. Stephanie, were you able to do that one in a full moon?

Stephanie Vermillion:

I didn't know that and, I'll be honest, I'm terrified of heights, so that's what I'm working on. I bungee jumped and my husband said I sounded like a dying bird because I was screaming. So Via Ferrata is next on my list, but instead I interviewed the people who own it about the experience, because they probably weren't as scared.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, I went down there back when they first started up. I think it's when they first started up it was probably about 10 years ago and I had an 80 millimeter telescope that I was just driving around. I was just kind of like driving around doing a little trip. I went there, I did the Via Frata the next day and I went into the camping area which was, I think at the time it was a dirt driveway and then a fire pit and like some dirt to the right and that's where you will camp. It's just throw of a tent, that's your spot, set up my 80 millimeter and the guides came out and they just hung out with me and I was showing them the sky and it was really cool experience. You know that was a fun time. Hey, you know, more power to them. I like how people are trying to diversify into some more all around all day activities.

Bill McGeeney:

As a reminder, if you heard anything in this show that makes you want to shoot over a comment or a question, feel free to either text us via the text link in the show notes or send an email to bill at lightpollutionnewscom. You can find us online at lightpollutionnewscom and the socials at Instagram, linkedin, tiktok. You can find us online at lightpollutionnewscom and the socials at Instagram, linkedin, tiktok, facebook and more. And Light Pollution News is a listener support show, which means that we take no outside advertising and solely rely on support of you, the listener. If you like what we do, why not consider helping us get into the black this year and continue pushing forward on our mission to keep you, the listener, informed? Today's show was recorded on March 23rd, 2025. I'm your host, bill McGeaney, thanking you for listening today. Remember to only shine the light where it's needed.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Bill McGeeney

Host
Head Shot

Shane Ludtke

Guest
Head Shot

Stephanie Vermillion

Guest
Head Shot

Traci Cardinal

Guest