Light Pollution News

May 2025: Operation Daylight Forever!

• Light Pollution News / Bill McGeeney / Robert Massey / Michael Calhoun / Phyllis Gricus • Season 3 • Episode 10

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About Light Pollution News:

The path to sustainable starry night solutions begin with being a more informed you.

Light Pollution, once thought to be solely detrimental to astronomers, has proven to be an impactful issue across many disciplines of society including ecology, crime, technology, health, and much more!

But not all is lost! There are simple solutions that provide for big impacts. Each month, Bill McGeeney, is joined by upwards of three guests to help you grow your awareness and understanding of both the challenges and the road to recovering our disappearing nighttime ecosystem.

Bill McGeeney:

light pollution news may 2025 operation daylight forever this week. How does light make you feel? Can satellites change the chemistry of our atmosphere? And did you know that you can buy old bridge lighting? A man in queens did just that. Well, most of the Brooklyn Bridge. This month. We welcome back conservationist Michael Calhoun, landscaper Phyllis Grickus and astronomer Dr Robert Mazze All this and more coming your way.

Bill McGeeney:

It's time for Light Pollution News. I'm your host, bill McGeaney. Each month, we gather the news together and bring on three great guests to talk about the goings on. I want to welcome any first-time listeners who may be joining us today to talk about the goings on. I want to welcome any first-time listeners who may be joining us today. We publish this show twice a month, diving into the topics around nighttime preservation in our highly dynamic societies.

Bill McGeeney:

Hey, before we begin, I just want to make you aware of a few quick things. First, if you're curious about anything you hear today, jump over to our show notes and our website for a detailed listing of all of today's articles, summaries and read-along. Also, we have an Ecology tab, updated every episode with the most up-to-date research and news on how artificial light at night affects ecology. Next, we love our listener mail, so feel free to reach out and ask questions, share comments or otherwise connect with us. You can find all of those in the show notes via whatever podcast player you're using right now, but, to quickly summarize, you can find us on Instagram, linkedin, tik TOK and Facebook. Finally, we have a good chunk of costs and effort that go into bringing you this show twice a month. Some of that is covered by our gracious listeners, but we still have many big gaps that we're looking to fill. Costs involve the show production, which is largely me, including research and show builds. Show engineering that's our man Caden and a robust social media program that's Caitlin.

Bill McGeeney:

If you like what we're doing, why not consider becoming a supporter? You can learn more about the benefits of being a supporter via today's show notes. The cost is very low. It starts at $3 a month, which makes it one of the cheapest ways you can actually continue to help expand awareness and communication around the topic of a sustainable night. If you're able to and you find the show valuable, why not support the show For you, the listener who already supports Light Pollution News?

Bill McGeeney:

Thank you very much. Your assistance helps us go a long way to pay down our costs each month, so really appreciate it. I'm very glad you can join us today. With me are three really great guests that I'm excited to have on. First off, we have Phyllis Grickus, and Phyllis is a 25 year veteran of the landscape design world and she is the principal of the landscape design studio LLC located in Pittsburgh, pa. Phyllis, what got you started doing the actual opening up Landscape Design Studio LLC? Was that always a dream? Was that something that you were going down the path? Because I know you mentioned the last episode you kind of went down this funnel. That's a big leap.

Phyllis Gricus:

Well, I should clarify that while I was always interested in the environment, that came from the viewpoint of loving to be outdoors, hiking, kayaking and living in Pittsburgh, which has its own environmental issues. I was leaving a career in sales and I've always loved gardening and I thought, well, now I have this time, I'm going to become a master gardener. I started there and people started asking me to do containers and window boxes and that's where my business started off, in much smaller scale and when I learned about professional development opportunities like universities like Penn State or Ohio University, that expanded my knowledge and learning what all was available out there and I really probably, had I known what I wanted to be when I grew up, I would have gone to become a landscape architect, but as it is now, I hire landscape architects for jobs when I need additional help. Also, I think what my career took off was when, initially, I would do a landscape design and I would hand it over to the homeowner to implement and they would hire some landscaper and I found the only thing similar to the plan that they paid me for maybe were the shape of the bed lines.

Phyllis Gricus:

They would often make plant changes without any thought to bloom sequence and all of those wonderful things that I think about as a landscape designer, even how large it would grow. So when I decided that I would only do work and I would tell my clients up front where I am involved in the project management of it I would tell my clients up front where I am involved in the project management of it. I do not have my own contractors, but I've developed over the years a group of contractors that I work with and purchasing the plants, so I know they're getting the right plants and I'm there on planting day to make sure they get planted properly and the soil test is done. And that's when really my landscape business took off and that just led to Landscape Design Studio LLC.

Bill McGeeney:

That's so. So you mentioned that you do whitewater kayaking. I do. Where do you, where do you go?

Phyllis Gricus:

Yes, I grew up going down to Ohio Powell, slipping into other people's rafting trips. You know, someone shows up with their group and inevitably someone didn't show up and they always needed an extra person. So I was there getting my free ride down the river and you know, then the kayakers started showing up and that's when I decided I'd do kayaking. But my favorite creek is Slippery Rock Creek, which is just north of Pittsburgh. It's through this glacial gorge that is just amazing, with wildflowers and hemlock trees that haven't been affected by hemlock woolly adelgid. So, yes, but I've experienced the environment in lots of different ways hiking, kayaking, biking just getting out there.

Bill McGeeney:

And also with us today is someone from Michael Calhoun from Vernonia, Oregon, and Michael out in Oregon, I feel like you guys got some great waterways. What's your story out there in the water? How's it?

Michael Calhoun:

Gosh. Well, we have near where I'm at in the Nehalem River. I think it's one of the longest undammed rivers in the state but I had a lot of fun on another one called the Deschutes, and they have different classifications for rivers, but that was really fun. And put the boat to the side, you're wearing your life vest and get in the river and you float down and I was trusting them how safe it would be and it was, but it didn't fill it at the time. Yeah, no, no, we got some good good places in Oregon and Southern Oregon at the Rogue River. It's a little more. It's one of the. It was part of the first wild and scenic act for like wild rivers, also undammed, but that one can be pretty spicy for those that really like rough rivers. Yeah.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, I came across that up in Crater Lake and that was probably one of the most terrifying rivers I've ever seen and it was terrifying for you at home to envision it. It's all this volcanic rock, that kind of lines the riverway and it has these eddies and it's really a little bit too much for me. I wouldn't want to personally be in that river, but maybe it's a little different.

Phyllis Gricus:

downstream, lots of drops and elevation, which caused those things that kayakers like to slide down.

Bill McGeeney:

And walls like really sharp walls Gorgeous. Yes, michael, you're over in Vernonia, oregon, and you're fighting the good fight on trying to help educate the town and community, on trying to have sustainable nights in a town by responsible lighting, sustainable nights in a town by responsible lighting. And I think last time I forgot to ask the question has there been any news on the decision? Because wasn't the decision supposed to be made in January if the town was going to switch?

Michael Calhoun:

over to warmer lights. Yeah, so the update on that. We had an election in November and then the new counselor, who was not as night friendly, was sworn in January 1st, so it made it more challenging. And then around January, february, basically the city's decision was they're okay with it, but the city doesn't want to pay for it. So I've looked into alternative funding and there's an organization locally called Rose City Astronomers Portland Phyllis may like this. Portland's known as the Rose City, so Rose City Astronomers is advocates for astronomy and they were willing to pool money together to fund the purchase of these bulbs. So that's where we're at right now, raising the funds to purchase so the city can install. But yeah, that's the update. They don't want to pay for it, as most cities kind of just don't if they don't have to.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, this seems to be a common theme. Well, our last guest might be able to help us shed some thoughts on that, and that is Mr Dr Robert Massey. And this show we're going to talk about today actually really aligns pretty well to your strengths, doctor, so it's going to be really good to have you on the show. So you at home may not be aware, dr Massey is the Deputy Executive Director of the Royal Astronomical Society over in the UK. He's been doing astronomy thing for roughly 35 years. Robert, have you come across any funding related items on this? I feel like this is the whole. This is the hardest part. You know you can get it so far along, you can get the policies in place, but then someone needs to pay for it yeah, I absolutely agree with that and that it's that persuasion piece, right?

Robert Massey:

you know, going to city authorities, going to the population and saying we'd like you to spend some money on this, there is this long-term benefit. It might even save you money if you're using less energy and all, and your lighting is more efficient and you, you have a lower color temperature, and so, however, getting to that point is hard, because the capital outlay won't be that low and and you know, then telling people, well, this is, this is, this has long-term benefits when they have other crises is is always a difficult thing. I mean, I think the the environmental resonance helps. The idea that there's a biodiversity issue that's not an idea. The fact that there's a biodiversity issue is really important in that.

Robert Massey:

The emerging evidence on human health as well. You know, I think there is that opportunity right now to make this case and say, look, it's not, yes, it's money, but actually, in the scheme of things, compared to some of the things we have to invest in, like healthcare, for example, this is a relatively low amount and it's got those wider tangible benefits, and it's not just for astronomers. We will sit there, obviously, and talk about the benefits for us. We can see dark skies, that humanity gets to enjoy that crucial bit of human heritage where they look up at an unfettered night sky is the word I tend to use the idea that you enjoy one that isn't hindered by light pollution. But it isn't just that.

Robert Massey:

It's such a big issue and I think that's a real strength. Actually, you know the idea that we line up with all these different organizations and say we're basically saying the same thing. You know we might have different motives, we may have different bits of evidence we bring to it, but we're all saying there's something that needs to be done about this and it's timely, just as we did with, or we have done to, you know, to lesser or greater extent, with other environmental crises. I mean, you know, globally people recognize the issue to cut the need to tackle climate change, and you know that's a coalition of interests, and I think light pollution is a key biodiversity, environmental, human health and astronomical issue. I'm hoping we're in a good place that actually we can start to shift things more now.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, there's a lot of big challenges facing your field, astronomy, and it doesn't just derive from traditional light pollution. But, yeah, I think that's a really good point and, man, if you just think about the lighting beforehand, you can avoid most of these issues.

Robert Massey:

Yeah, I mean that's true in planning terms. In the UK we need new housing. That's undoubtedly the case. You know we have a growing population and part of our argument we're not going to sit there and say those houses shouldn't be built. But what you do want to say is look, this is an aspect of development. Just as you put the right infrastructure in place to make sure that people have got clean water and decent internet access and transport links and all those kind of things, then another consideration is that you minimise the environmental impact, and part of that has to be light pollution.

Robert Massey:

To say we're going to build new settlements, let's make sure that they're compatible with that. I'm hoping that we keep managing to make that point and that it's understood and that there is that wider problem Because the work of people like David Smith and Bud Life there's a specific UK organisation it's very clear that there's, for example, an impact on insect populations. We wonder why there's a big fallout in the number of insects, like pollution might be part of that explanation. So you know, our hope is always that we can get that wider view across, that we can say to people you know there are a whole number of reasons why you should be doing this that's why we have have Phyllis here.

Robert Massey:

Phyllis is playing a good fight for the guards.

Bill McGeeney:

Real quick before we get into the show. You live in? How do you say the town? What is it? How do you say that?

Robert Massey:

We say Lewis, which is not so different to the way you're pronouncing in your script.

Bill McGeeney:

I think yeah so we call Lewis here, and I've always wondered where that name came from. Where that name came from Now I know obviously. So that is in England right.

Robert Massey:

It is. It's in East Sussex and I think that I think the city in Delaware was named after it by William Penn. So really, really deep, you know pretty deep history there several hundred years ago and it was also the home of Tom Paine for a few years as well. He was a more or less a tax collector when he lived here and before he went off to the US and wrote the Rights of man, and there's still various. There aren't pubs named after him, but a lot of businesses celebrate his presence so they would see him to the whole American revolution and so on. It's a very big thing here.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, there we go. I didn't realize that.

Robert Massey:

Well, if you're ever this way, then you know I'll happily show you some of the places that certainly some American tourists do enjoy seeing it.

Bill McGeeney:

I know just real quick. I know for sporting events. There's a big Eagles bar over on Passyhunk somewhere in London, because we have a Passyhunk here and it's a main corridor through the city of Philadelphia and so you have Philly sports there as well. It's just little ties between the countries. No matter how much we tear off you guys. Just remember that we do, we do.

Robert Massey:

Okay, let's kick off this ties between the countries, no matter how much we tear off you guys.

Bill McGeeney:

Just remember that we do, we do. Okay, let's kick off this episode with the satirical magazine the Onion. I've always hoped to have an article from the Onion on here and I was granted. As they put out, the story of the rotation of the earth plunges entire North American continent into darkness, and I presume it's not limited just to North America, unless we're on a flat earth. Maybe we are, I don't know, robert, but let's continue on. According to the Onion, the earth is spinning uncontrollably through space and its rotation is utterly beyond human control. Darkness victims describe hunger pangs, lassitude and a slow but steady loss of energy forcing many to lie down. This is horrible. What kind of society are we living in where you have this? I feel like a lot of people actually feel this way about night, this feeling, about this fear. I think the underlying fear that the Onion put in here about night is very true. I don't know if anyone else is on board, for maybe we can do an operation daylight forever. I think we're halfway there I think.

Robert Massey:

I think there are people. There are probably people who would sign up to that. You know, the idea of the 24-hour city and the rest of it, which, in principle, it's not, it's not terrible. You know, I've been out in spain in the middle of the night. You know, as a younger person I was out in the middle of the night, obviously, and not just for things like astronomy, but you know, but, but, but do we really really want to live our whole life like that?

Robert Massey:

You know, and yeah, and accepting, I think, maybe just an acceptance of the fact that there is a circadian rhythm, that there is day and night. You know that you can't defy this and if you do, it doesn't make you very well. You know, maybe there's something in that. Yes, it's an inconvenience in the sense of if you're trying to do everything you do during the day at night, but why would you? Do you really want everything lit up at that time? And if you do want that, then I suggest you move to the up north of the Arctic Circle and enjoy it for a few weeks and get on and make sure you've got some very thick curtains so you get some sleep.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, you know who does, who really wants that 24-7? Daytime, and that is the fine folks over at MSG. And you'll recall that the New York-based MSG has brought us great things like the Las Vegas Sphere and soon-to-be the Abu Dhabi Sphere, but fell short on their bid on the London Sphere thanks to a lot of community backlash against the installation of that. Well, the MSG team is actually looking to dumb down the sphere a little bit, primarily because of the price it costs to keep these facilities operating 24-7. Essentially, there are giant LED screens shaped like a giant ball and on the inside it's kind of like the inverse of that, and these mini spheres would have a capacity of 5,000 people, which is a fourth of capacity of the full sphere.

Bill McGeeney:

This is this new form of entertainment experience. It's the kind of like the rage right now. Everyone wants entertainment. You see it when you go to sporting events. It almost feels like you know if you're not having convulsions from the light. The lights are going to change and flicker and do things and everything's going to be part of that, and then you have the music set up to like a 90s dance club because for some reason we haven't moved beyond that in sporting events. Is this just a fad, or are experiential entertainments kind of just where we're going to be for the next 10, 20 years?

Robert Massey:

Yeah, I mean on the MSG stuff. Actually I was involved in the campaign at some level to stop the MSG sphere in London and I'm glad we did. We put in evidence to the Greater London Assembly, which is the governing body for the city, saying this was antithetical to efforts to control light pollution. They had an environment committee that were looking at it and then the mayor of London, sadiq Khan, rejected it. And there was some discussion in the press about London was going backwards by rejecting this wonderful thing and I thought, no good.

Robert Massey:

I mean, I know it's a bright city, it's a capital city, there's plenty of light pollution there already, but the idea that you would add to it in such a grotesque way just seemed extraordinary. And what I find hard to fathom, I think, is, regardless of why we want something like this, why does it have to be lit up on the outside as well? What kind of dystopian idea is that where you think, well, you've got the experience of the people inside, but we're going to inflict it on everybody around them as well? I I really don't understand that. I mean, even in vegas, you know okay city, you know which is which is, hardly has an aversion to brashness. But the idea that you would do that, I just think, is extraordinary, you know? I mean, where did the subtlety go? You know, just just. It has to not only be a dominant feature for the people inside and I think you're quite right about that but but everybody outside as well it reminds me of when movie theaters in the 1950s were being challenged with tv.

Michael Calhoun:

They started new ideas cineorama and, and 70 millimeter and it sounds kind of similar to this, where more and more are built, but I think that eventually, like you said, they're not even getting the money to fill these places. So if they do build more, I see them closing down one by one until, kind of like today, there is a 70 millimeter theater in Oregon, but there's just one, so they're everywhere all of a sudden. Then they close down. Then maybe the one in Las Vegas will be the holdout.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, that's an interesting point about the movie theater correlation. I wonder if that will happen. The thing I loved about the sphere story in London was that MSG was willing to give the neighbors black outcomes.

Robert Massey:

It says it all, doesn't it? I mean that's yeah's. Yeah, we're gonna pollute your environment, but don't worry, we're going to. Yeah, I mean that's just atrocious, isn't it? Yeah, yes, well, yeah, I'm not gonna make any friends with them, I'm sure, but yeah it, it really. Yeah, that's just not right, you know, come on, I mean it.

Robert Massey:

I think it was also the idea for me that you just take something which is in a place like vegas and you put it in a european capital any capital, you know, assuming that everywhere in the world would be so grateful to have this and not recognizing the cultural difference, if nothing else, you know. But anyway, yeah, I'm glad we defeated. I am glad we defeated it. I think, frankly, you know they weren't really making I mean, apart from farcical things like that, they weren't really making any effort whatsoever to engage, and you know it wasn't good enough. I'm glad, I'm very, very glad it got rejected. It's one of those rare victories really, when something like that, you sit there and you think, oh, it's just gonna happen and it was really nice to see it didn't?

Bill McGeeney:

to be quite honest, very happy for you guys to to move out on that, but you asked before and I I think this is a you thought it's like how does light make you feel? And while there's a new study out of Journal of Sleep, it's found that blue-enriched light actually kind of makes you feel good. And the study looked at 35 individuals, with just under two-thirds of them being young women aged around 20 years old, engaged responses to self-affirming and self-depreciating language in blue light and blue depleted light, and have found that blue enriched light actually influences our mind to think in a more positive manner. So maybe it's not that shocking, considering our need for daylight and sunlight, that we would have this positive response.

Phyllis Gricus:

I think you're much better off going outside and getting blue light from sunlight when you can, versus artificial light. And also the AMA our American Medical Association has proven our bodies don't function well 24-7 on that light.

Bill McGeeney:

I hope none of us here have 4,000 to 5,000 Kelvin lights in our home. But is anyone here excited to work in factories, because I feel like that's good for productive activity. But when, phyllis, you wind down right, it's a different story.

Robert Massey:

Well, I was just going to say yeah, and I think I understand the way these operations work and in some cases, certain industries and so on, they can't shut down understand the way these operations work and in some cases you know certain industries and so on they can't shut down because the way the machines work I'm having a conversation about steel furnaces here right now in the uk but but there is a price and and I think expecting people to operate on that basis for long periods of time is really tough, you know it's not good for you. Anybody's ever worked night shifts knows it's not good for them. I haven't done that very much in my life. I've done it in a very intellectual way when I was doing astronomy research. I think that's.

Robert Massey:

That's quite different, obviously, to say, being someone who's sitting in an amazon warehouse or somewhere just sorting things through the night or many other businesses of that type, and you know nobody doing those things will tell you that they really relish working through the night. So yeah, yeah, there's something about it and I guess the problem, I suppose, is that it feeds into such a broader aspect of society, because we have assumptions about productivity, we have assumptions about when we get goods and all of those things. And if you unpick the idea that quite as many people are working through the night to deliver them, there's a bigger impact too. That quite as many people are working through the night to deliver them, that there's a bigger impact too. But I certainly think we've got to have the debate and actually look at more than just saying oh, you do, I don't know a week of night shifts and then you get a week off, and so on. It's probably not going to be enough to maintain people's health.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, on a health front I have two articles here. I'm just going to quickly go through One's Frontiers in Public Health looked at generalized levels of artificial light at night from satellite images and tried to correlate them to metabolic disorders like diabetes, obesity etc. And there were about 11,729 participants who underwent physical evaluations, fasting blood samples, and the study concluded that there are positive associations with generalized light pollution metabolic diseases. With generalized light pollution metabolic diseases I'll temper that conclusion Most associated with propensity for these diseases appeared to reside in urban areas for which there is more light at night.

Bill McGeeney:

The study was unable to tease out the confounding variables. However, in a separate study from environmental research, researchers looked at 831 children with an average age of nine years old. They measured for five days the children's exposure to daylight over a hundred lux and dim light over one lux, and the study found a modest but interesting association. While daytime light tended to be associated with reduction of body fat by 3%, dim or greater light at night tended to be associated with an increase in body fat by 3%, with boys apparently showing a greater trend toward increased weight gain in dim daylight and bright nights. Michael and Robert, I'm curious how do you guys navigate the health topics. What's a good guiding principle for the listener at home?

Michael Calhoun:

well for me. I've done slices of every kind of topic when I, when I present this in general, I've never solely focused on health. It's usually light pollution, impact to the environment, and I have mentioned about blue light in my presentations to to the council. But but for me personally, I haven't made that the main case, at least yet yeah, I mean we looked at, we looked at it.

Robert Massey:

We looked at it. There was actually a House of Lords and the UK Parliament and an investigation into noise and light pollution together and the impact on human health, and they did more on noise because the research is better established, I think, and you know there's more work needs to be done. One of our central points was that the evidence base needs to be firmed up. So we know there are issues. It is quite hard to disaggregate them because you know, I guess quite often if you're doing sort of not very well paid shift work, you may have other comorbidities, cofactors in your life that you know meaning they're not in the best health. But the evidence is there. It just needs to be a deeper base and we were trying to argue that the government should prioritise that, that if it's looking at the way it funds science and so on, one aspect of this would be well, we know this is a widespread pollutant and so let's look at what it's actually doing to people more rigorously. There are people like this Russell Foster at Oxford, actually a friend of mine, hannah Dalglish, who used to be on our governing council. She's done some work in this area as well, and she persuaded these peers you know the unalleged House of Lords, but it's there, it does some good work she persuaded them to look at this issue in the first place. So credit to her and she should come on your show sometime, actually, if she never has done before.

Robert Massey:

There are other curious aspects as well. A guy named Bob Fosbury, who used to be an astronomer at the European Southern Observatory he now works on ophthalmology with UCL. He's been doing some very interesting work about how the absence of not just you know, just having narrow spectrum light has these other effects, and he describes it as being sort of an almost like an artificial scurvy effect. Where you're not receiving infrared light is an issue too. So the way that white light inside is now you know, bright white light, high temperature light is that may be depriving you of various benefits there too, I mean.

Robert Massey:

The obvious thing, though, that Phyllis is quite right. You know you want to get the best kind of light. Then being out during the day under sunlight is the best way to do it, and it's very difficult to replicate that inside. But so there are things going on and I think actually understanding that better would be a really good idea right now. You know, it seems unlikely to me that if it has this significant effect on invertebrates and mammals and birds and so on, why wouldn't that include us? So you know, maybe it's time to do that work and take that more seriously.

Bill McGeeney:

Phil, do you have a recommendation for a specific kind of lighting for individuals and landscape?

Phyllis Gricus:

2,700 Kelvin is the light that I'm recommending now. It was around 3000. With regard to outdoor lighting, is that what you're asking me?

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah for exterior landscape for when people are doing their gardens and a good recommendation for how they should be lighting that space.

Phyllis Gricus:

Well, it's down lighting to avoid the trend of uplighting the architecture of trees and reversing that light, because you can still enjoy the beauty of the tree at night, but just cast down the branches of the trees and, quite honestly, I'm not a big fan of light. So I'm still a proponent of saying if you're not out there, then turn it off.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, I ask because Robert hit on it that there's so many effects that hit across the ecological spectrum and it seems like the best option is no light, the okay option is red light and then anything else. You're kind of rolling the dice, you don't know where you're going to get. And in gardening side right, you want to have a healthy garden and half of that involves your soil composition and the insects that you cultivate in that ecosystem. That was kind of my question. It's like they're going to want to light up their gardens and when they do, what's the best recommendation on that?

Phyllis Gricus:

2,700 Kelvin, 3,000 Kelvin Lower that light bulb. There are some people I have convinced to maybe can't redo their whole lighting system. They go the amber light way. However, I try to explain to people that plants need light for photosynthesis Most of us who have grown plants recognize that need that process that converts that sunlight into energy.

Phyllis Gricus:

But they also need periods of darkness for metabolic processes, most of which they suggest is for root growth. Regeneration is for root growth regeneration and in terms of trees under streetlights, that causes them to hold onto their foliage in the fall much longer. And when they're holding onto the foliage in the fall, it means they're not going through the metabolic process of preparing themselves for winter. If it then gets cold faster than anticipated, it affects your plant's growth and their survival rate in the long term. So when I try and explain some of the benefits of the plants, they're investing thousands of dollars in to keep them healthy, in addition to the aspects even you know, because in the winter you're not dealing with pollinators, You're not trying to convince them to turn off the lights for pollinators, You're trying to ensure that they understand what the plant needs and tree needs are for darkness.

Bill McGeeney:

That's a good way to summarize it. I like it. Let's switch over an article from Nature which appears to hint at some unforeseen effects across our whole planet, at some unforeseen effects across our whole planet, right when we, you know, not just looking at gardens or streets, or pretty much you know, we're looking now at the chemical composition from satellites. The future estimates are now looking upwards of 40,000 lower Earth orbit satellites to be up in orbit once the space economy fully takes off. For places like the New Verarubin Observatory, which hopes to take 1,000 wide field exposures per night, the only game plan really involves limiting the times of photography and avoiding the majority of satellite streaks and then spending additional time in post-processing trying to remove those satellites. Radio observatories currently rely on communication coalitions between SpaceX and local governments to help reduce the impact, but still there are areas that are affected by stray streaky satellite transmissions which sit outside of the SPECT range.

Bill McGeeney:

There's also this issue re-entries chemicals into the upper atmosphere. This past February, starlink re-entered an average of four satellites a day which will burn up in the atmosphere. According to the article, some studies have measured small but negative impacts on the ozone layer. Robert, on the atmosphere front. I know this is too soon to tell what's it looking like. Do we have danger from dramatically increasing our deployment and re-entry of satellites?

Robert Massey:

Yeah, I mean I think the answer is yes. Now, exactly how bad it is is a really good question, and that's why there's all this permanent work going on. And of course, you're right, it is too early to tell, in the sense that we're seeing the ramping up of the use of low Earth orbit now. Now what that demands is an increase in the number of launches, although they deploy more satellites than ever before. But also, the protocols are that at the end of the life of a satellite, and with good reason, you're obliged to remove it from harm. So you shouldn't be leaving it there to act as a huge chunk of space debris and place well, not just other satellites but astronauts on the space station at risk, for example.

Robert Massey:

So the usual approach is to what's called de-orbiting, which basically means burning them up in the atmosphere and some bits that occasionally make it all the way to the ground. That's not great either. But there is this emerging concern about burning up a large amount of aluminium in the Earth's atmosphere, maybe effectively ramping it up even on, on current numbers, to perhaps seven times what would happen, naturally, from incoming meteorites, and what that does to the ozone layer in particular, because aluminium oxide can act as a catalyst to encourage chlorine to destroy ozone. Now this might all seem a bit unlikely, but then I would point to the fact that you know we don't use cfcs in our fridges anymore, and I don't suppose that when cfcs were first used as a coolant in fridges, anybody had any idea that this was going to have an impact on the upper atmosphere of the earth. So, at the very least, there needs to be some real thought about this.

Robert Massey:

I also would probably challenge the idea that you take something as expensive as satellite and simply set fire to it at the end of its life. It seems we wouldn't do that in other areas of life, and it's probably I guess it's. The way this has emerged is that we looked at a small number of satellites until 2019, when the first Starlink constellation was deployed, and that the numbers were then set to ramp up with multiple providers, not just SpaceX but across the world and we've moved to a different place now, and so we need to take this much more seriously. Another parallel I would give, I guess, is that we used to perhaps say in the 19th century and before, assumed the sea was an unlimited dumping ground and you could just throw stuff into it forever and no one would really say that now, and I think we really have to start treating even the upper atmosphere of the Earth in the same way.

Bill McGeeney:

What would the option be if you don't de-orbit it?

Robert Massey:

Well, you can do graveyard orbits, and I think perhaps you know whether you elevate them to a higher orbit. Obviously that then might fill as well, but you can also. I guess maybe it is about what they're made from. I mean, you know there were some innovative ideas. I think it was a Japanese company made one out of wood, which sounds utopian, but if it works, it works. And also perhaps just think about making them last longer, or if there is a way at least to take a full-size satellite and reuse it or not just extend its life.

Robert Massey:

But that's the kind of thing I think we're going to have to think about eventually, certainly if you want to have not just tens of thousands but eventually hundreds of thousands of satellites in orbit. It's time to be thinking about that. It's not just again. It's not just the impact on ground-based astronomy, where we get annoyed with this cluttered sky which I'm not a fan of, as you can imagine because I think that has, apart from the impact on the science, a heritage issue as well again about not being able to escape this. Even At least with ground-based light pollution. You can still just about travel to places in the world, but you can avoid that.

Bill McGeeney:

You can't escape this, because it's everywhere all over the sky and pretty much all over the world as well. Do you know what causes them to have to be deorbited?

Robert Massey:

so soon.

Bill McGeeney:

Oh well, it's, it's space debris management is it because the orbit has come down to they just low? They have a low orbit and are just naturally going to drop, you have a there's.

Robert Massey:

There's passive and active de-orbiting, and so active de-orbiting is firing a small thruster to slow it down and cause it to re-enter the earth's atmosphere.

Robert Massey:

Passive de-orbiting is where it's reaching the end of its life and it's decaying naturally and entering the earth's atmosphere. Now and by design, that's what that, and it's done really to ensure that you don't have too much up there, because there is not. It's very hard to define a kind of carrying capacity, but certainly if you have too many things in orbit, then there's a problem. And there are things like the Kessler syndrome, the idea that you have the cascade of collisions and debris, because, although you might think something like, say, a flake of paint coming out of one of these is pretty harmless if it's traveling at many times the speed of the bullet, it really isn't. So you know this is already an issue and there's a lot of work going on to try and minimize that. One idea was burn everything up as much as possible in the atmosphere. But then there's this other unforeseen consequence that we really ought to be concerned about doomsday issue.

Bill McGeeney:

We have the European Southern Observatory release a technical analysis of the impacts of the proposed mega site, which is only 11 kilometers away. If you'll recall, the Chilean government has a real conundrum on their hands.

Bill McGeeney:

On one side, they want to promote green energy, on the other side, they're home to major astronomical research facilities and, as a further difficulty, I think both policies are backed by the government. So, according to the ESO, light pollution would increase by a minimum of 35% for the very large telescope and by 50% for the Pichernikov Telescope, array Observatory South, and then the extremely large telescope would expect to see a modest increase of 5% in light. Air turbulence, as any amateur astronomer is familiar with, would degrade the current stable scene conditions by 40% due to proposed wind turbines and construction operations would create vibrations that would render equipment like the very large telescope's interferometer moot. Robert, the Earth is quickly becoming a place where you can't do Earth-based astronomy. Where else do astronomers go?

Robert Massey:

So this one. We actually wrote to our science minister and asked them to lobby the Chileans over this, because the UK is a member of the European Southern Observatory. It's got 16 member states and it's a really important organization and this is one of the sites in Chile are basically the best places in the world to do astronomy. It's why they're clustered with telescopes and why so many observatories are there. So if we don't protect that, then where can we do this science? And I think the argument we've been making as well is that this is important to chile. That chile is, you know, a country that's moved officially beyond the level of being a developing country to industrialize one. You know this isn't a high technology part of their economy, it's something that plugs them in really well to the rest of the world with an incredibly advanced science.

Robert Massey:

So we've been trying to make the argument, say you know, this is not about protecting the site, but actually it has bigger ramifications as well and it would be really disastrous.

Robert Massey:

I mean, frankly, taking one of the best places in the world to do this and wrecking it seems a terrible idea. I do understand the conundrum about developing green energy, but one of the suggestions has been that the site can at least move, say, perhaps 50 kilometres away, the Atacama Desert's big enough. Now look, I don't know it well enough to comment about whether that's feasible, but that is one proposed solution, that at least if it's moved away. And, by the way, even if that's still done, I still think they ought to be doing as much as possible to constrain the light pollution at the very least, because of the impact on that desert ecosystem there, albeit not much life, it's not the point. I don't doubt there are fragile species there. So we'll see. But I really hope that the Chilean government rethinks it. I think it's a decision at a sort of regional government level initially, and I very much hope that they don't go ahead with something like that, because really, you know, trashing the best place in the world to do astronomy would be incredibly unfortunate.

Bill McGeeney:

Well, on top of that, how do you justify all the amount of public funds that went into building these observatories?

Robert Massey:

Well, and from international, exactly from across European countries. It's a really, really big investment and, you know, I think, a massive scientific success story. So it would be a huge shame to trash that. I mean the European Extremely Large Telescope. They're not very original names in these cases, but this is one of those telescopes that will do things like look for Earth-like planets around other stars, trying to answer those huge questions, and please don't trash it. Think about the bigger picture here, what that means for the whole of humanity.

Bill McGeeney:

The last, it's a trifecta right here. The last sign of the apocalypse is from Scientific American, and I apologize in advance, because this one is definitely no less depressing. There are two Russian companies, one named Avan Space and the other Start Rocket, that are joining forces to aim lasers down to the Earth with the intent of showing us Earthlings, something that none of us at all want, and that is more advertising. The company's plan to deploy up to 400 satellites at 370 miles above earth, which would be app controlled exclusively for the advertisers.

Bill McGeeney:

Glad sinek off was quoted as saying space is not for just scientists, not just for the military. It is entertainment too, and people like entertainment. That makes light of what the two companies are really trying to do, and that is, at least to me, turn our night sky into a hellscape of billboards. In the US, there's a federal law banning the launch of space advertising that was passed back in 2000, stemming from a Georgia-based company that wanted to do the same. And, robert, would this just be it? If you had space advertising you're going to go to, you know, I don't know selling donuts on the street, or something like what happens at this point.

Robert Massey:

I mean look, this is it's grotesque, isn't it? I mean imagine taking a natural landscape on Earth, you know, imagine Yosemite with a huge illuminated billboard in the middle.

Bill McGeeney:

Don't, don't, don't, tempt the administration on it.

Robert Massey:

I was going to say a word about that, but you're right. But how outrageous and appalling that would be. So I would just say, look, this is grotesque. I have a feeling it might not happen. You know, the Russians are under at least at the moment the Russians are under a sanctioned regime and the rest of it.

Robert Massey:

They might have some difficulty selling that space, but it's a terrible idea and it's not. It wouldn't even work as they're suggesting. I mean, they were talking about it would just be switched on over cities. Of course that's not going to be the case. You know, it's bound to be visible from much further afield, because the satellite is a couple hundred at least kilometers up. So yeah, it's awful, and I think I just don't even do people actually want this? You know, apart from the companies, do people want to go out at night and be unable to escape advertising wherever they are on earth? You know, surely we want some respite from this, as you say. You know, I know how to buy a donut. I don't need an advert in the sky telling me how to do that.

Bill McGeeney:

Not even with a QR code. I don't think anyone wants advertising, but I guess, to play devil's advocate, what makes it different from a drone advertising experience and you'll see these in certain areas that you know have drones do advertising like in a famous one, at least here in the States, is in Jersey city and Manhattan, you know, right across the river from each other.

Robert Massey:

And I'm not a fan of that either, particularly. You know I have enough advertising in my life, every time I browse the internet. You know it's not like I don't see ads all the time, so I'm not a fan of that particularly. But obviously it's the reach right. You know, if you have something which is, say, several hundred kilometers up and it's visible over thousands and thousands of square kilometers, that's very, very different to something which is local, maybe hundreds of feet up, bad enough though that is. You know, I find that a bit in my face, to be honest, and I don't need it.

Robert Massey:

You know the idea that you decide that that's not enough, that even an area of a city is not enough for your reach, for your product, that you've got to actually illuminate, I don't know, tens of millions of people at once, really. You know that's the difference. I think it's absolutely a sense of scale. And at what point do we say that's too much? And I'm absolutely sure there's not going to be a great environmental impact from that as well. I can't imagine trying to stop thinking about the idea of keeping gardens dim. Well, imagine trying to do that if you've got these things flying overhead so bright that everybody can see them you don't think it's going to have you buying a heineken zero.

Bill McGeeney:

You don't think you're going to want to run right out if you see heineken zero advertising this.

Robert Massey:

That's the last time I buy them.

Bill McGeeney:

I think it's fair to say well, let's get back down to earth here for a little bit, and, michael, you mentioned the last episode. You have a, you're a fan of vintage lighting and I think this is a really interesting piece for you. Let's take a little step back off the ledge and go over to Queens, where not all residents were excited about the city's glow-up of the Brooklyn Bridge. Some took to social media to express their dismay, claiming that the new LED lights imparted a harsh, blinding light on the glow of the bridge, and then one Instagrammer even stated that the oppressive new LEDs are like the 19th century. Brooklyn Bridge is under interrogation by a belligerent cop.

Bill McGeeney:

Queens resident Joe Palato decided that it was his calling to purchase the old Mercury vapor lights from the New York Department of Transportation's auction For the price of $35 each. He purchased 123 of the 150, of which he was able to resell them to various collectors. And this line, I think it sums up purple auto. The white lights are certainly more clinical. I can see people being like blah. They were warmer and cozier before. Michael. How do you feel about that one?

Michael Calhoun:

I admire the person I saw reading the story. You know, for people that want the older technology, personally I've never felt the need to hop on the trend for new anything. What I'm doing here. We had a shoplight installed. This is before I got into all this. It was LED, but you know what? We're getting it uninstalled and we're putting a high-pressured sodium. So the world may be changing but I'm going to enjoy that.

Michael Calhoun:

But other people in New York, they're seeing the difference of this bridge, how it's illuminated, and the number one comment I always see is it's either harsh or they equate it to something that is harsh, like a hospital surgery room. You know people even that aren't really into this world of light pollution. They don't. You know they're, you know it's just, they just use their eyes, they see it. So yeah, I, it's unfortunate to see these historic structures that are illuminated in such a way. Now I know the news here in Oregon, portland, oregon, has a number of bridges spanning the Willamette River. There's an organization wanting to light them up with LED lights and to draw tourism that way, where they'd all be. You know different colors and I get it, but that is a conversation I'm hoping they're having with dark sky advocates. You know, is it going to be illuminated, like you know, all the time, or is it just for special events? So so, finding that balance, that yeah, yeah. It never ends.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, good luck on that one. You have to really, I think, insert yourself in that conversation. We have a new and I know, phyllis, I know over in your neck of woods too, bridges and towers are a very special thing that people just love to light the living hell out of and we have a new green trail that goes across town and actually is a boardwalk that cuts across a river, so swings around some industrial area, now connects the lower part of town and in the middle. I don't know where they got the money for this, but they put this massive fancy bridge with these big towers in the middle, which, of course, they're going to bathe in light, because that's the most creative thing we can ever do is get a light out.

Phyllis Gricus:

Even in Pittsburgh, after the dark sky ordinance took effect, somebody lobbied for lighting our bridges along the Allegheny River, and it's. It's abominable.

Bill McGeeney:

Some company, you mean Phyllis.

Phyllis Gricus:

Some company lobbied Exactly.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, and we've had other articles on other stories or bridges being lit, but yeah good luck with that, mike.

Bill McGeeney:

You have to really jump in on that, and it's interesting seeing. As you said, do you know people really don't. They don't appreciate the white like the. The white seems to. You know, it's like a 60 30 type approach to things. You know, people are just not a big fan of that.

Bill McGeeney:

But anyway, let's close out tonight's show with a story. Phyllis I apologize in advance because I know this is probably reached some havoc in your life you would be the man who helped bring something that we know of as the gypsy moth, now called the sponge moth, which was transported over to us from France by French immigrant, a teen, a Leopold Trouvelet, and obviously those living outside of North America. They may not know the story, but here the rest is history. But it's not all too bad, phyllis. Just because the gypsy monster here doesn't mean he was a terrible, terrible guy. So, in 1870, trouvelet started down a road that would eventually lead him to work with multiple observatories, including the Harvard College Observatory, which housed a 15-inch telescope, the 26-inch telescope for the University of Virginia's Leander McCormick Observatory and the US Naval Observatory, which is also 26-inch Plus. He would go on to publish in many scientific journals.

Bill McGeeney:

Trivelet, though, really got his start in astronomy after Harvard College Observatory Director Joseph Winlock took notice of his detailed lithographic prints of local events he noticed on his Massachusetts farm, such as streaky illustrations of green and blue auroras. Obviously, time and technology will catch up to him. However, in between then and there, what is stunning is the quality of these lithographs, including breathtaking pictures of the zodiacal light, astounding renditions of the planets great comet of 1881, and even the Orion Nebula. There are much more to see in the article via the show notes, but he even includes a super detailed moon illustration I highly recommend if just take a look at the link. It's just really impressive what he did back in the turn of the century, around the late 19th century. So see, phyllis, it's not the end of the world. The guy has some merit.

Phyllis Gricus:

And also the native bees and birds finally took a liking to gypsy moth. They're not a problem for us in Pennsylvania as much as they used to be, but just like the stink bugs, eventually the critters catch on and decide that they can in fact eat them.

Bill McGeeney:

I mean, in fairness to critters, would you want to eat a steak or do you want to eat like tofu? I'm just saying there, you have it for me. I want to thank my guests. Dr Robert Massey of the World Astronomical Society. Dr Massey, where can people learn more about the work that you do?

Robert Massey:

Well, the RAS has got our website, you know. We've got a YouTube channel. We're very active on different social media channels, particularly including things like Blue Sky. Now we're regrowing our presence there, and you can find me personally in those places as well, and also on LinkedIn, you know, and if anybody's genuinely interested, then connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm not as diligent as I should be about posting things there, but I do from time to time.

Bill McGeeney:

And we have landscaper and the owner of Landscape Design Studio LLC, Phyllis Grickus. Phyllis, I wish I knew how to pronounce your name.

Phyllis Gricus:

You just did it.

Bill McGeeney:

Oh no, In the first episode. I apologize completely, but I got Grickus here. I think I nailed it. This episode Score some points on my end. If you're interested in learning more about what Phyllis does, how can people find you and where can people learn more about the projects that you're working on?

Phyllis Gricus:

Well, they can start on my website, landscape design studio dot com, and there I have many of the articles I've written available for you to download and read. Also Instagram, and since Robert mentioned Blue Sky, I'm there too.

Robert Massey:

I forgot to follow each other. We should do that.

Phyllis Gricus:

And I think that's an exciting move from me, and I'm not very good at keeping up with social media. It's my least favorite part of my job, but I'm working on it.

Bill McGeeney:

And then, lastly if not least, conservationist, michael Calhoun. Michael, for any Pacific Northwest folks listening today and interested in learning more about the work that you do, how can they connect with you and maybe lend a helping hand?

Michael Calhoun:

They can find me on LinkedIn, michael Calhoun, vernonia, oregon, and I'm always posting different articles about projects I'm working on, but I really do enjoy networking with folks and that's how we share ideas and learn from each other and grow from there, so definitely just hit me up.

Bill McGeeney:

Yeah, I'm interested in learning the outcomes that you have over there, so definitely keep me in the loop and good luck. If you think of it from a purpose-driven area and not a say I need light, just give me light. If it's purpose-driven, you can come up with some really good solutions. I think we have a good opportunity there, so good luck. I want to thank you to listener for joining us today. As a reminder, light Pollution News is a listener supported show, which means that we take no outside advertising and solely rely on the support of you, the listener.

Bill McGeeney:

So if you like what we do, why not consider helping us out? Why don't you go over to our website and you can help support the show? If you heard anything on the show that makes you want to shoot over a comment or question, feel free to either text us via the text link in the show notes or send an email to me, bill, at lightpollutionnewscom. You can also find us online, lightpollutionnewscom, on the socials Instagram, linkedin, facebook, tiktok and more. And today's show was recorded on April 19th 2025. I'm your host, bill McGeaney, thanking you for listening today and remember to only shine the light where it's needed.

People on this episode

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Bill McGeeney

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Michael Calhoun

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Phyllis Gricus

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Robert Massey

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