Like Honey on the Brain: George's Ketamine Journey

Molly interviews a listener about his experiences with depression, bipolar, and therapeutic ketamine. We learn how George convinced his hesitant psychiatrist, found a therapist trained in psychedelics, and joined a ketamine support group. We discuss the spiritual element to psychedelic experiences, what a ketamine journey can actually feel like, and the wonderful insights he's gained along the way.

This is a gem of a conversation. We hope you enjoy it. If you do, please take a moment to share this podcast with a friend.

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Transcript

Theme Song: She's sometimes sad, she's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene, let's sit back and talk about ketamine.

Molly: Welcome to Ketamine Insights. This is a podcast made by patients and the people who love us, and designed for patients and the people who love us. Before we start, you should know that we are not trained experts in mental health. If you or someone you know is having a mental health crisis, please get help. In the US, you can dial nine, eight, eight. Today we have an interview that I'm very excited to share. Here goes. 

Molly: Hello, everyone. I'm so happy to welcome George to the show today. He's a listener to the podcast and we're thrilled to have him with us. George, how are you doing?

George: I am doing very well, Molly, thank you.

Molly: Thank you so much for being here. Oh, I did want to say as we go along, please feel free to interrupt, ask me questions, skip any topics that you'd rather not talk about. That's totally fine by us. And I guess first, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Where you're from, your rough age, any other background that you think might be relevant?

George: Yeah, Molly. I live in Reno, Nevada with my family. I am the young age of 63, and I have about a 20 year history of bipolar two disorder. And I've been on the radar with psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and now participate in a Ketamine support group. But what drove me to seek Ketamine treatment? I had pretty bad depressive episodes in my bipolar cycles and they got to the point where they were becoming dangerous. I had attempted a couple of suicides and was really at the end of my rope. And frankly, because I think I had some stigma that I associated with doing a psychedelic journey, I had probably put it off. And so when I went in and had my first journey, it was desperation. It was desperation that drove me there.

Molly: Yeah, I know the feeling. I mean, I feel the same way. I feel like a lot of the listeners, people say, oh, that's such an interesting choice. It's like, no, it was just the only thing left that I hadn't tried and I needed to keep trying, or else we don't know, unfortunately. Okay, I'm wondering, can you tell us a little bit so it sounds like the difficulties that you had didn't kick in until your 40s, is that right? So it was a little bit later in life.

George: I would say yes and no. I can recall being a teenage boy and having symptoms that I look back now in retrospect and think, oh, ****, I was sick back then. But you're right. If you go back 20 years to about the year around 2000, I watched my father have a psychotic break as he was an undiagnosed bipolar patient. And it got my attention and as a little bit of background. My dad was an undiagnosed bipolar all his life, and as a boy, he was just a crazy man to me. But when I watched him go off the track so severely and watched his diagnosis and then kind of took a personal inventory myself, I saw some of those same characteristics. What I unconsciously did at that time is I made a vow that I would never end up in that same place. Little did I know that the journey was going to take me that way whether I wanted to go or not.

Molly: Wow. And so you heard about Ketamine, and it sounds like you felt a little resistance at first, and then did you do a lot of research leading up to it, or how did it kind of get started? Did you look for a therapist or look for a clinic or what were your first couple of steps?

George: After being on a number of different pharmaceuticals from my psychiatrist mood stabilizers atypical second generation antipsychotics anxiety meds, somebody finally said, well, we think you also have treatment resistant depression, so we need to begin to explore alternative methods. And of all the ones I looked at, the one that was probably the least offensive, the least scarrit was acetamy. It's interesting because my psychiatrist was very reluctant to write me the referral that would get me in the door there, and I had to almost twist her arm. And unfortunately, also the therapist I was working with who had a background in alcohol and drug counseling was very reluctant to steer me that way too. But there was something about it. And the testimonies you're right. I researched the testimonies, a number of them on different sites, of course, some sponsored by Ketamine, others not. And it's like, this looks like my best shot. And all those things kind of thrust me in that direction.

Molly: That's really interesting. I've had a similar experience with doctors really pushing back. It's a perfectly safe and legal option, but there are a lot of doctors who not only won't kind of prescribe it, but definitely won't even discuss it with you.

George: Right.

Molly: Yeah. Which is it makes it makes it hard. You're already in a difficult position trying to seek treatment and advocate for yourself when you're already in a rough spot. Did you end up working with a therapist who was trained in Ketamine, or was it just a clinic that you were able to go to? And I'm really, actually interested. We can talk about this in a second. The Ketamine support group sounds really interesting, but were you working with a therapist who was trained in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

George: Or no, not at the time. And a weird series of events took place that the wonderful psychotherapist I had been seeing who was, like I said, not in favor of the Ketamine, dropped off my insurance panel. And being kind of a man of modest means, I had to look for another therapist because I needed one. And at that time, that was just the time I was starting ketamine. And at that time, the stars kind of aligned and it's like, oh, I'm starting Ketamine. My old therapist is going away. Why not look for a therapist that is at least open to ketamine? And actually, I found someone who what's the word? Now? They're using integration therapy to integrate the course ketamine treatment into the psychoanalysis. And that's what I've been doing for the last I don't know if it's been a year, but for the last several months working with an integration therapist while taking ketamine treatments.

Molly: Do you think it makes a difference that the therapist is trained in integration?

George: I actually think it does. To give you an example, the therapist I see is a big believer in plant medicine, edible psychedelics, and has a history in that. And so she brings to the table her own experience with ketamine and Ayahuasca and psilocybin. I'll tell you what, here's just my opinion, Molly. There's something about this group of people who do not just ketamines, but psychedelics that makes them unique. And I've never met a more loving, accepting community than what I found in the acetamine and psychedelic community. And we're real fortunate in Reno. There's a pretty pronounced movement here toward the therapeutic use of psychedelics also. And it's really comforting because and I'll segue into the ketamine support group, it's really comforting and supporting to meet with folks of a like mind. Sometimes just people have had the same scary, depressive, life threatening experiences that you have. And to be able to put all that **** on the table and say, this is how ketamine has impacted those things, that's a great thing.

Molly: Where did you find this group? Can you tell me a little bit about it?

George: Yeah, the Ketamine Clinic that I go to sponsors it and they bring in a I like this term. I don't agree with its meaning, but they have an integration therapist there and she kind of steers the group, she'll throw out issues and a lot of times it just opens up into kind of a sharing session and people sharing about their most recent journey and some of the challenges and how they're doing. And it can get very personal. And of course, the therapist kind of makes sure we're all aware of the rules on confidentiality and stuff, but it's become a personal and integral part of my treatment and they have it every week and I go twice a month and I find it extremely helpful.

Molly: That sounds great. I would love to participate in something like that here in Chicago. I know there are a few places here that do group ketamine sessions, but it's kind of like a cohort of people go through the whole journey together, so they'll actually go through the infusions together and do integration sessions together. It's like a class of people that all start and go through the six initial infusions together and kind of integrate together. But I don't know if we have any kind of just more open for people who are ongoing in an integration and just support group kind of way. It sounds really helpful.

George: Right. And there's another organization in Reno and if you don't mind I'll give them a plug or else you can cut it out. But it's the Sierra Psychedelic Society and they hold weekly for example weekly, I don't know, call it integration. It's a little more takes a little more broader view and includes all psychedelics. But I'm familiar with the leader over there and she herself has been a Ketamine patient and has had very successful results. So it's nice Molly, it's nice to know that there is these groups out here and these other folks out here. Like I said, frankly I still have a stigma. Not so much even it's gotten less and less with Ketamine. I probably still have more of a stigma with my mental health but that's an ongoing journey too.

Molly: Sure. I think the community and sort of camaraderie of a group like that must be very helpful. It helps to not feel like you're the only person in the world who has these problems.

George: Right. I think that's important that you mentioned that because for me my mental illness tends to separate me and it tends to keep me away from people. The sad fact is in the last 1012 years I've lost and destroyed more relationships as a result of not being able to handle my mental illness with it just acting in a bad way, I mean having a pronounced bad influence on my life. And let me add one more thing to that real quickly. My first Ketamine journey I mentioned I went in and I was pretty desperate and was having a scary amount of suicidality and was going down that road where you go from thinking it, planning it to doing it. And I remember after my first Ketamine journey and I tell everybody this story, my fixation with suicidality was probably reduced by 90%. I mean it cut it off at the knees. And the reason for that, if I may elaborate, is please. The experience of and it was a psychedelic experience, it was almost spiritual and people look at me like I'm crazy when I say this, but Ketamine is two parts medicine and one part magic. There's something that happens that we can talk about different aspects of it, but there's something that happens that cannot be fully understood. And the beauty of the Ketamine is not just the psychedelic experience which in this case, for the first time Molly, in my life I saw the beauty of the world as ugly as places we live in right now. It was like the veil was pulled back and I saw such beauty. I mean mind boggling beyond description, I'm sure you know what I mean. And then I saw my life and I saw that beauty along with the hard times woven into my life. And I thought, how can I possibly think of destroying something myself that contains so much beauty and in such a beautiful world and a beautiful life? And I don't say this to promise anything to anybody, but that first Ketamine journey for me was life changing, literally. And that sounds pretty dramatic, but it was life changing.

Molly: Wow. I think it must have been, if it reduced suicidality by that much, I mean, you walk out of there with a different outlook, right?

George: I know everyone has, in my mind, the experience itself and everybody I think everybody has a different experience. And I've had Ketamine journeys that were like spiritual unfathomable things to ones where I go and do the treatment, walk out, and it's like, no big deal. And the nice thing about Ketamine, too, is for me, I find sometimes the most inspirational part of the treatment comes not necessarily the day of the treatment, but in the next day, where there's just like this, your mind has been opened and expanded, and it's like you're almost more vulnerable to new information. And I know there's a lot of talk about what Ketamine does to that frontal cortex and opening new channels for communication and stuff, and I would have to agree with that. And I think the proof is, in the long term changes. Yes, it can be the most wonderful, beautiful experience you'll ever have. But for me, the question becomes my wife, who is a marriage and family therapist, by the way, has asked me sometimes bluntly, what difference is it making? Because she has a very keen interest in this also. Then she'll put me on the spot and she'll say, well, how is it changing your life? What is it making better?

Molly: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question. How do you think if we go beyond that next day and the day after that? In the longer term, has it changed your kind of overall outlook in a way, or is it more about I feel like there's a big difference between kind of just mood elevation and the insights are different things that you can get from Ketamine. But there's also, as you said, that spiritual aspect to it. I know you haven't been doing it for years and years, but in the longer term, how do you think it's affected your life so far?

George: It's been less than a year and it's greatly reduced. As I said, my suicide fixation with suicidality is just almost negligible. If you put it on the radar radar, it's just a blip once in a while, maybe a random thought versus grabbing hold of it and running with it. My depression, too, has been significantly reduced. And one of the things, and this is something I'm sure you are I'm going to mention the name Victor Frankel talks about a pause a moment between stimulus and reaction. For example, somebody gets in my face and says, hey, *******, I have a second there to decide how am I going to respond? You got to slap this guy in the mouth and I'm going to say, excuse me, or am I going to walk away? And what Ketamine has done, because as a bipolar patient, I tend to have a real hair trigger on my motion, sometimes to the point where it's not safe. But what Ketamine has done has ketamine has opened up that space for me between stimulus and reaction to where it's almost like the window is bigger and I can see it coming at me. I can see this thing that's going to activate me and possibly send my emotions spiraling in one direction and me doing something stupid. But I feel now like I have a longer pause where I can take a breath and say, wait a minute, you do have a choice. You do have a choice. And Ketamine has helped my like I said, I want to give Victor, Frankl and anyone else credit for that. That's not my thought. But what I've seen is Ketamine empower that and as such improved the quality of my life.

Molly: Wow. I think that's so interesting. The idea of responding as opposed to reacting is one that those of us who have studied Mindfulness are familiar with. But it's a slog. It's an everyday practice.

George: Yeah.

Molly: And for it to have become a little bit easier, even just a little bit easier, is a huge step forward, it feels like.

George: Yeah. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Molly: No, go ahead. What were you going to say?

George: I was going to say I feel very grateful that because before the Academy, I had a real foundation laid with a psychotherapist, and it was during COVID and so that kind of was a magnifying glass, I think, for a lot of people, but spent a couple of years really laying a foundation. I'm sure you're familiar with act. You mentioned Mindfulness really laying a and what I found, Molly, and I'm not saying anything disparaging about any form of psychology or any practice, but what I found was the psychoanalysis or therapy only took me so far. And some of the real ugly, traumatic things that I had suffered as a child, the psychotherapy showed those things and revealed them to me, but I couldn't break their hold on my life until the Ketamine treatment was brought in also. And then the identified thing I was able to deal with. I was able to push through it, live with it, whatever adjective is appropriate. The Ketamine was the push that helped me get through those things that I had identified in therapy. But some of them had such a strong hold on me, I was not able to resolve them without the help of the Ketamine treatments.

Molly: I think that's such a clear way of putting it. I feel like sometimes in therapy you can become convinced of the change that needs to happen and believe in it and even have a lot of conviction. But actually making the change in your heart or in your underlying beliefs or however you want to put it doesn't necessarily follow from the work. Unfortunately for those of us for whom it's a years long slog, the therapy itself can sometimes only get you so far. Like you said, I've sometimes put it that Ketamine can help me move the lessons I get from therapy from my head to my heart. Yes, and I truly effortlessly believe in them after a Ketamine infusion. And then sometimes I'll retreat again over the months that follow and still the underlying beliefs that are the negative underlying beliefs that kind of hound me will come back. Such as like this is all my fault, I brought this on myself, that kind of thing. And you know, of course in your head every day, you know that's not true, but you only sometimes truly accept that truth in your heart. And I found, yeah, the same as you seem to describe that ketamine has been really helpful in bringing those truths kind of really home.

George: Yeah, I got to tell you Molly, that's a beautiful way to express it. I mean, from the head to the heart can be a long when. You know, for me I refer to it as that AHA, moment when it's like I see it now. I've been reading about it and I've been learning about it and it's like, AHA, now I get it. And you know, I like, I guess I would just say is that I just feel extremely grateful. And if I can add on a little more history, the Ketamine wasn't my first alternative medicine treatment, if you will. I had gone to some therapists, not their office, their home. They offered an alternative treatment and went to their home for the weekend and did MDMA therapy. And this was at least six months before I started Ketamine. But again, it was such a powerful, I don't know, these drugs that our government unfortunately has outlawed and now they're starting to loosen up and they're sanctioned tests and stuff. But my first exposure with MDMA was almost godlike, I mean it was just such a spiritual experience to where I thought I was convinced, I'm fixed, I was overly enthusiastic. And about six weeks later, after I thought I could quit taking all my meds again, I crashed pretty hard and so came back, said, okay, is there a plan B? And started looking at Ketamine as possibly something more of a long term sustainable treatment.

Molly: Interesting. I've been listening to podcasts from Maps and Psychedelics today about MDMA and eagerly looking for news about when it might be approved by the FDA and everyone keeps saying next year. Well, they've been saying next year for about four years now thanks to the pandemic, but they really do seem to think 2024 is the year that it will hopefully be approved. So I personally am very interested in checking it out because it just seems so promising. Especially for trauma, is what they're saying.

George: Yes.

Molly: I think one of the major reasons for treatment resistance in depression is unresolved trauma. I know that's the case for me. And so, yeah. Oh, my God, I'm crossing my fingers and my toes for that one. And to find someone who has experience working with it is another huge challenge. I know they're trying to train up psychotherapists by the dozens, but there's just so much demand. Understandably that, hopefully. I think that's another thing that we try to emphasize on this show is that it's so important to work with a therapist, but it's not possible for everybody. No, unfortunately, because of the cost, but also just because of the number of therapists who have experience with it. So I don't know. I wanted to ask about intentions, though, and whether or not intentions tend to affect the trip themselves, or do you even set intentions? How do you go about that? What's your experience with intention setting in Ketamine?

George: I do believe in intentions with a big caveat. I always, and I think I heard it from your show, how important set and setting are your mindset and the setting in which you're going to have your Ketamine treatment. And I think they're absolutely critical. And so when I go into Acetamine treatment, I have a loose intention, not one that I hold very tightly, unless it's something really pressing. But I had Academy journey on Friday, today being Monday, although my little train jumped the track. What was I saying? Sorry.

Molly: Yeah, you said you believe in intentions with one big caveat, and so you keep kind of a loose grasp on the intention as you go into the trip, it sounded like.

George: Yes. Thank you. And at the beginning of the journey, before I make what I casually call the jump to hyperspace and disassociate, when things get really interesting, there's always kind of like, pardon the expression, and I do spravato and I do an intermuscular injection. And so the spravato is kind of the foreplay, and then when the im hits you, it hits hard. And so the first part of my journey, I'm more subject to think and talk about my intention, and I'll roll it around in my mouth like a mint and meditate on it and think about it. And sometimes something will come up, sometimes something will present itself, sometimes nothing does. But what I find about maybe 1520 minutes into the journey, my intention disappears. I find it, I'm going to say, more therapeutic for me if I just lay back and let the journey unfold. I found if just for me personally. Everybody, of course, has a different experience. If I try and steer the journey too much, it doesn't go to the depth that it would seemingly, if I just relax and give myself over to it. Does that make sense?

Molly: Oh, yeah. I actually agree completely. I find it very difficult to I find that it affects the journey or the trip if I cling too much to the intention, and also if I try too hard to remember what's happening now so I can remember it when I'm done, I find it really kind of skews the experience. It dulls it.

George: Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And not to take away anything from intention, I practice yoga also, and intention is really big for me, yoga, but it doesn't carry over quite the same way to the Ketamine world. And my thought is my opinion is that the Ketamine experience is too big for the human conscious mind to handle, I think. And frankly, I think that's where the magic happens for me. My brain is just too much. The experience is too much, and it causes growth, I think, in the brain. It causes repair to take play. And as you mentioned, some of these terrible traumatic experiences that so many of us, we just tend to experience in life. I don't know how, but it chips away at them and it knocks that **** loose and allows us to deal with it.

Molly: If you don't mind me asking, what are trips like for you? So is there a certain setting that you find common in trips, or does it change from one to one? Or how does it feel to be under the influence of Ketamine? I think a lot of listeners, especially people who are considering it, a lot of people talk about the medical side, and you hear therapists on podcasts being interviewed about the effects, but we don't really hear a lot about what does it feel like to have Ketamine in your system?

George: Right.

Molly: I know it's different for everybody. Yeah.

George: Let me first say, Molly, if somebody has I think the term is treatment resistant depression, and somebody has suicidality, I recommend Ketamine treatment to them. I don't recommend it to the faint of heart because it is an otherworldly experience. I don't know how else to say it. You will never see the things in life that you will see during a Ketamine journey. Now, having said that, that can be a pretty intimidating statement. How does ketamine feel? Ketamine feels like being wrapped up in a warm blanket of cotton candy, like honey being poured all over your brain. It's comforting. It's soothing. Any fear or apprehension I had regarding my first couple Ketamine journeys was quickly dispelled because while I'm seeing these phenomenal psychedelic things, I have such a sense of peace and security that it's not a scary experience. And again, I'm just speaking for myself, there's such safety and warmth and acceptance that the medicine provides, that it allows you, I think, to experience these other things. And I mentioned our Ketamine support group, and I remember going to one meeting and a journey was pretty fresh. I think I'd had a journey two or three days before and I was sharing a little bit about it and one of the gals in the group said, well, what was it like? And I said, I saw the glory of God. I have no other words. I mean, there are things that defy description. There's such beauty and such stuff. I'd say unicorns and rainbows. But beyond that, and I have found too somatically physically there have been times and here's the other side of the academy journey, there have been times when I have found myself just weeping uncontrollably during Acetamine journey and feeling such sorrow, such know, like somebody kicked you in the stomach kind of. Um, and it's stuff, like I said, the medicine seems to precipitate. I don't know how molly, let me finish that little story there. And every time I've had a journey that's been challenging like that and I've had my fair share of trauma, so I've had my fair share of time under the trauma microscope to where the Ketamine searches that stuff and roots it out. But every time I've had one of those challenging journeys, there's always been healing that has come right on its heels. Healing and even laughing and giggling sometimes and restoration. But there are also times, I mean, if you're serious, I don't want to say a follower, but if you're serious about dealing with things that have you stuck in life and you're using Ketamine as a modality or a means to help you through that, at some point you're going to be challenged. You're going to be what you feel and you're going to be challenged by what you see. And the beauty is, if you stick with it, there's always a way through. There's a way through.

Molly: I think that's that's I think that's so well said. It's not an easy question to try to it's just so hard, right, to wrap words around the experience sometimes. It's so hard even to wrap your own head around the experience, let alone try to describe it. But I think it is important for those of us who talk about psychedelics not to shy away from the spiritual feeling that it does bring. I mean, I did not grow up in a religious household. I don't consider myself a religious person. And there have been times when, after an infusion, I've found myself telling my therapist something very similar to what you said. I don't know how else to describe it. I felt the presence of God and it wasn't bad. Felt good, felt very reassuring.

George: Yeah, it's kind of a drug that defies logical explanation sometimes. And as messed up as our federal government is, I don't know who came up with the idea to, if you will, legitimize Ketamine for these types of treatment, but they've done a great service to the world, unfortunately. Now, in fact, I just got a notice, an email yesterday from my. Ketamine clinic that they're experiencing, I guess, quite a shortage of ketamine across the country, where it's going to start affecting the way they administer treatments.

Molly: Wow. I hadn't heard that.

George: Yeah, at least in the short term, they say.

Molly: That's definitely something to watch out for. Wow. I did have another question about kind of the way you do things. What do you like to do in those days right after your treatments or after you go on a journey that next day, you say you're open, you feel kind of vulnerable to the world. What are the things that you like to do during those periods?

George: It I'm choosing my words very carefully. It really depends. Sometimes it's nothing more than just lay on the couch all day and just recover, because it's not uncommon for me. And I'll typically schedule my ketamine treatments to happen last thing in the day, late in the afternoon, so I can go home. And there are no expectations of me doing anything because sometimes I go straight for the bed or I go straight for the couch, and I'm there for the next 24 hours. There are other times where I'm really big on act Molly, and there are other times where the voice inside me says, get out of your head and get into your life. And like Saturday after my treatment Friday, my grandkids had soccer game, and I was feeling rough. I mean, I was rough one of those days where even I needed to be in the bed, but and ultimately, I think for all of us, my desire is just to experience life in the best way, to find the meaning of life, but to experience life in the best way. And the drive to just be around, love, to be around relationships and connect with people. And maybe that was part of the lesson from this most recent journey. But normally, while I'm so much depends on how I feel physically, because ketamine journeys for me personally can sometimes be pretty physically demanding. Not during the journey itself, but afterwards, and particularly in the next day. So I try and always give myself lots of room to recover. The other thing I've gotten into the habit of, and I would put a big exclamation park on this from somebody who doesn't know anything, but somebody's had a few journeys. What's it called? I always journal my journeys. I've journaled every one of them, and only because and I hate journaling. Let me say that up front, I'm not a journal. But the significance of the things that come out of those journeys are worth writing down. And I have my ketamine list. I've got about a dozen to me what have been almost life changing kind of statements or things, and I keep them posted where I can see them, and I remind myself, these are the things I need to look for. These are the things I need to take care of. Am I doing this? Am I in the middle or am I out of balance? So I'm real big too, on fostering those things that come out of the journeys, giving them time to really come to fruition without sounding too weird about it. I think Ketamine challenges us to have to look at medicine different and have to combine medicine with psychotherapy and then combine our psychotherapy with taking responsibility for our lives. And even with mental illness. As screwed up as that is, we can make it through. Ketamine is one more, as they say, tool in the tool belt that just has really improved that quality of life for me. I actually have hope in life, Molly. I mean, if you spoke with me a year ago, I'd have said, ****, I'm screwed. I can see the end and it doesn't look pretty. But I have hope now and I have hope for a better life. I have hope for better relationships. I'm certainly far from let me use the word fixed, I'm certainly far from that. And realistically, I know myself well enough. I'm never going to be my bipolar, for example, is never going to go away. But Ketamine is one of those things that makes it more manageable, makes it livable.

Molly: I think you raised such a great point about it, really is. Why I think it's called integration is that trying to keep those sort of lessons or learnings front of mind and actually live by the things that Ketamine reveals is a hard task. It doesn't come naturally. It takes exertion. It's real work and it's effort and it can be exhausting when you're also dealing with an illness that hasn't gone away completely at all. So I appreciate you highlighting that, because I think it's a weird double message that I kind of struggle with putting out in this podcast is it can be so, so helpful and it's not simple, it's not easy, it's not unambiguous. And so I appreciate you highlighting that. I think, if you don't mind a sort of quick round to end us off, I'm going to give you what, like five different groups of people, and I'm wondering if you have any advice, suggestions, complaints, recommendations for each of these groups. And then you can skip anyone that you don't want to talk about or don't have anything to say to them. Does that make sense?

George: So you're going to give me a chance to give bad advice and screw somebody's life?

Molly: Yes.

George: Is that what you're saying?

Molly: So anything you wish? Because I feel like we have listeners that are therapists, listeners that are patients, listeners that are also Ketamine clinicians or psychiatrists. And I sometimes just want to I meet a psychiatrist at a party and I'm like, dude, why do you guys do what you do, how you do it? You know what I mean? I want to give people a chance to just kind of air out the kind of practical or whatever we've learned in our years of going through the mental health system.

George: Sure.

Molly: Okay, great. So I'm wondering, is there anything in particular for ketamine clinicians or the people who work at ketamine clinics.

George: Love people, be in for the right reason. I'm fortunate. The clinic I have I have people there who I know care for me. I'm not simply a patient. I'm not simply, oh, here comes client George again. I'm a human being to them. And if you work in that setting, remember also you're dealing with human beings at probably their most very vulnerable point. I mean, they're in a land, they're in a place where if you've never experienced ketamine, they're in a different dimension. And so I would just say have a lot of love and humanness when you deal with people who are undergoing ketamine treatments.

Molly: That'S great. That's fantastic. I couldn't agree more. Wow. Okay, next. Psychiatrists or other physicians?

George: My you know, I use my own experience with my psychiatrist very briefly. She was totally against it. I've tried to win her over by seeing these changes in my life. And so if you're seeing a psychiatrist, you may find him resistant. My psychiatrist pushes the standard big pharma drugs to this day, and I still have to say, no, I won't take that anymore. And so, I don't know. There's definitely Molly room for education for our doctors and our psychiatrists. There's some folks who are just old school, and they're never going to buy into it. I would say that too. If you can't find a psychiatrist and a doctor who is at least tolerant of the idea, go somewhere else.

Molly: You don't have to fight. There's enough uphill battles. Right?

George: Yeah.

Molly: Okay. What about therapists?

George: I highly recommend one. I think you have to have one for the treatment to have the efficacy that it's capable of. You have to work with somebody like you would normal psychotherapy, but it's psychotherapy with a supercharger on top of it.

Molly: Do you have any advice or suggestions for members of the support network, friends and family of someone who's going through ketamine treatment?

George: I would say the same thing I said about people who work in ketamine clinics, technicians. I mentioned my wife is a marriage and family therapist. She has been for 40 plus years, and she's seen all the good, the bad and the ugly that comes with psychotherapy and working with people. But it's very difficult for her to see me in a bad way, and it's difficult for her to see me struggle in life. And so I'm sure I said that to say I'm sure these people who loved ones is going to undergo ketamine treatment. They've probably seen some of the signs of depression already. They've already probably been the target of some of those things already. Molly, I just can't say it enough just to have love and empathy and be gentle in a time in our world, my God, where we all need those words. Be loving, be gentle, be accepting. Try to understand that this person perhaps going through a desperate time in their life and more than anything, they need that support rather than judgment.

Molly: The final group of people I'm wondering about is any advice or words of encouragement or anything at all for just people who are struggling with treatment resistant depression or really with any mental illness.

George: Never give up. I found also, not just in this arena, but in the whole medical arena, you have to be your own best advocate. You have to be the one that seeks out help. You have to be the one that makes the phone calls to doctors and psychiatrists and clinics. You have to be the one that researches this stuff on the Internet. And if you're not capable of it, find somebody who will do it for you. Seek out treatment. And I say this from experience and just seeing some of the worst things from people who have quit, never give up. If you're suicidal, seek help. If you're depressed, seek help. Call someone, talk to someone. And if you have this treatment resistant depression that Molly and I are talking about, find a psychiatrist who will write you a referral and consider Ketamine as a legitimate what they call modality or a mode of help for you. Those are my biggest words, Molly. And we have such terrible rates of suicide now, and we're still living in a post COVID world. I don't think we're fully recovered from the trauma that COVID brought to this country. And people are, like you said, there's this terrible shortage of psychotherapists. There's even a bigger therapist of psychotherapists who know anything about Ketamine. So my word is just if you're wrestling with depression and you've tried, I can't give you a list of everything I've tried. It's too long. Don't give up hope, people. There's hope for you.

Molly: Thank you so much, George. This has been so to. I feel like I'm going to listen to this again while I'm editing and be taking notes and put them up on my own wall to remind me. So thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to add? I feel like that was such a beautiful way to end the podcast.

George: No, it's just what I'm going to say next is, whether for the podcast or not, it's just so nice to speak with you. And it's nice to talk because I know that you know what I'm talking about because you've been there yourself and you've had that Ketamine experience, and sometimes it's just so hard to quantify or qualify it to people who have not experienced it because it is something that's beyond our normal senses. It's almost that metaphysical, if you will. So I very much appreciate talking to you and talking to someone who is like minded and had like minded experiences and doing what you're doing, helping people. That's the most important thing.

Molly: Thanks so much. This has been fantastic. I really appreciate you being so open and sharing your story with us. I think people find it really valuable. Thanks for listening to this episode of Ketamine Insights. If you liked it, please share it with someone who might find it helpful. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Molly Dunn, and our theme song is by Solid State Symphony.

Theme Song: She's sometimes sad, she's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene, let's sit back and talk about ketamine.