"Yeah, but it Saved My Life." Angel's Ketamine Story (Part 2)

Angel takes us with her on several profound psychedelic journeys, including one in which she finally realizes: "My God, I'm beautiful."

Ketamine therapy brings new levels of peace in this episode - the second half of our conversation from last week. Angel and I discuss grief and forgiveness in the context of complicated loss. She describes how she knows when she needs another treatment, and the beauty of being able to communicate with her support network.

We revel at the power of a good example.

Angel gives some perspective on music and physical comfort during ketamine journeys. And we end with some practical advice for clinicians, allies, and people who are interested in ketamine therapy for their own stubborn depression.

This conversation is the second of two parts, Part One was published January 15, 2024.

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Transcript

[00:02] Theme Song: She's sometimes sad. She's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy, trying a treatment that's new on the scene. Let's sit back and talk about ketamine.

[00:18] Molly: Welcome to Ketamine Insights, where we sit back and talk about ketamine. Today's episode is the second half of my conversation with Angel. Neither of us are psychologists or medical experts, but we have both been undergoing ketamine treatment for several years. Together, we explore her experiences, from joy and healing to shaking in tears and back again. I feel the need to emphasize that ketamine does not help everyone. And as Angel says, it takes a lot of work alongside exposure to the chemical itself. I'm so glad to bring you the second half of this conversation. It's a truly inspirational story with a lot to teach. We'll pick up where we left off with Angel and I discussing some of the healing that ketamine therapy can bring.

[01:11] Angel: I would urge anybody at any point in your life, it doesn't matter where you are, what you've been through, to do what you can to find the ketamine treatment, because it's life altering and it's life saving. And the people that I know in my circle who do receive ketamine, we all say the same thing. Yeah, but it saved my life because I was simply done. And that's a very scary place to be. And there is a lot of spiritual attachment between me and my brother. And I have had so many experiences with him and losing him the way that we did was extremely traumatic. I mean, it devastated me and my two sisters. And my mother's response was just very removed and cold and distant. And that made it harder for us. And what's interesting is that my mother and I never really bonded and life with her was not good. But in their ketamine treatment, about a year ago, she came down in light, like I saw her coming down a staircase, but she was in light form. And she walked up to me and I couldn't see her face or anything. It was just sheer white light. And so she came up beside me and she said, step outside of yourself. And so I did. I saw myself standing there and I stepped outside of myself and she said, now stand next to yourself and look at you. And I want you to see you the way I do. And so I did. And I just sobbed. And I said, my God, I'm beautiful. And she said, yes, you are. And that brought me so much healing because my mother, wherever she is right now, wanted me to experience some healing come from her, come from the person who brought me so much pain. And she wanted me to see the beauty in me. And that's the most important thing, is nobody in this life is ever going to need you as much as you need you. And she showed me, look at yourself. You should be proud. And I sobbed. I sobbed through that treatment. And I came out of it just thinking all the way home about, wow. Yeah, you know what? I've raised two really amazing human beings, and now I have these two amazing grandchildren, and I have worked my butt off, and I've been a really great human being my whole life and take great care of my animals, and I'm a good wife and all the things. And it was that treatment, it was that moment that made me step outside of myself and say, look at yourself. And I just wish everybody could see themselves.

[04:27] Molly: It feels like a very different experience than somebody saying that even someone very close to you in regular life, like, no, you're a good person. You're strong. You've done all these wonderful things. To feel it in that way from your mother, it feels like a much more powerful and maybe long lasting. Is that right? That it was much more powerful than a therapist telling you that, for example, in a session?

[05:05] Angel: Oh, yeah. And don't get me wrong, my kids are always, mom, you were such a good mom growing up. You did this and this and this. And I hear these things and I hug them and kiss them and thank them, and I remember. But there's always this hesitancy inside to believe the good things about ourselves when depression has always been your way of life.

[05:30] Molly: Right.

[05:31] Angel: And so that is another reason why it's so believable when it comes to ketamine, because the ketamine is bringing healing to your brain. But at the same time, not only is it working on healing this brain that has been suffering for so long, it is also bringing in these experiences that we each individually so desperately need to experience whatever it is we need to experience to heal. It just so happens that there is no intimate relationship in this world that could ever match that of a mother and child. And mine was damaged from the get with my mom, and I always grieved that, and I had to draw very healthy boundaries as an adult. I finally said, oh, my gosh, this is not okay. And that created a whole issue. But even before ketamine, I recognized there needs to be boundaries here. And then she died, and I didn't get to say goodbye. And our relationship was not even existent when she died. And so you carry a lot of guilt. Just these inner conversations, these dialogues, they're not necessarily made of truth, okay? They're not necessarily a fact. But we as human beings still, especially the emotions, just kind of take over. And having her come to me in her light form and say, hey, you need to stop and you need to look at yourself. I'm going to help pull you out of you so you can just look at you. And that was pretty amazing. I think if it had come in the form of anyone else during a ketamine trip, it probably wouldn't have been quite so profound. But the fact that it came from my mother brought me healing on a lot of levels and made me okay with her on a lot of levels. Oh, well, you're in your light form, okay? I'm glad. That means that you've made it to a good place. And now you're seeing things from a whole different perspective. And you see me. And the conversations I'm having with you, you're hearing them and you're understanding my tears. And so, because I'm having this spiritual conversation with you about ketamine, I can say without a doubt that our loved ones aren't dead and gone. Their body isn't here. And we are such visual creatures that we require. We got to see everything to believe it. And even the saying, seeing is believing. Well, not necessarily. I have this thing hanging on my wall, this Angel in the center. It's welded. Just believe. And that's all you got to do is just believe, because they are right there. And I've had far too many experiences during ketamine sessions to believe any differently. Even my at home lozenges. And something interesting, my guide for the at home lozenges, I had an appointment with her, and I was sharing with her some of the profound things that were happening with me. And she said, I've got to tell you something really interesting. She said, I was meditating yesterday, and Red Tara came to me. And she said, when I finished meditating, I thought, okay, I know one of my patients had an experience with Red Tara, but I couldn't remember who it was because I have so many. And then on my appointment calendar for the very next day, you were listed. And she said, and then it hit me between the eyes. Oh, my gosh. Red Tara came to me because Angel is scheduled to see me tomorrow. And she said, I just find that amazing. And she said, there are times where I will have appointments with patients, say there will be certain weeks where I'll have appointments back to back with patients, and almost all of them will have reported that they had the same experience that week while doing the ketamine lozenge. And she said, I can't explain it, and it blows my mind. But she said she had to agree with me that this is not. When we go into ketamine treatment, we are having spiritual experiences. We are going to other dimensions. I know I've been to other dimensions that would sketch most people out if I even describe to them what I've witnessed. And I feel like it's even possible to kind of astral travel and end up somewhere else. I know that's happened to me, but only during ketamine treatment. And I come out of every single session healed by something in particular. And the ketamine just knows where you need to be to have that healing.

[11:12] Molly: It makes me think of something my therapist told me once that I think I might have talked about once on the podcast. Just this idea that you don't need to kind of for a lot of things that are hurting, like you said, sometimes you can't find the words, sometimes intellectually, your intellectual tools are not the right tools.

[11:37] Angel: Yeah.

[11:37] Molly: And your body, your mind, your soul, however you want to call it, your spirit knows what it needs and can heal itself. You need to create the right environment for that to happen, or the best that you can, at least. And that feels very real to me when I think about my ketamine experiences, that things I'm given messages like that that I didn't know I needed to hear or I thought I knew that they were true and I didn't realize the depth to which they were true. Things like that where I kind of knew them to be true, but now I believe them to be true.

[12:21] Angel: Yeah, I understand. Yeah. It's very true. It's just the perfect environment, right, for.

[12:31] Molly: Your body to do the healing or your mind, your spirit to do that healing that it knows on a much deeper level inside of you that you need and that will make you feel better, more whole, more complete, happier, have a more meaningful life, more present.

[12:50] Angel: In a lot of cases, more present, yes. And I think that's because if you're severely depressed, you are a person. You are blood and flesh walking around, doing the things. But there is at least I'm speaking for myself. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is how I could articulate it best, is it really feels like my spirit or my soul and my mind stepped away.

[13:24] Molly: Right.

[13:25] Angel: Because everything got to be too much, and the ketamine kind of reels it back in and it says, okay, we're going to make you whole again. Look, you're going to have to deal with this, and you got to deal with that. We're going to help you heal from this. Here's a tool to heal with that, heal from that, and you become this whole being little by little. And it does take maintenance, and I'm there for it. I will continue to do the maintenance doses. I don't ever want to find myself in a place where I've come from. That's not an option. And I think that spiritual healing is in place for a lot of people. And you know something? I'm certain that there's so many people so depressed that they don't even realize it.

[14:15] Molly: Yeah, definitely. I think, in hindsight, can trace very depressive behaviors to early childhood. And I wasn't diagnosed until I was 30.

[14:28] Angel: Wow.

[14:29] Molly: And in hindsight, it's obvious. Very obvious. But it wasn't at all at the time. It was shocking to me that I was finally diagnosed.

[14:39] Angel:  Yeah. Well, I'm just so grateful that we're finally at a time I wish that my siblings could have lived long enough to have had the accessibility to ketamine. Because it really hasn't been on the scene for all that long.

[14:56] Molly: No.

[14:57] Angel: And now there's other psychedelics that are coming on to the scene, and I'm so excited for that.

[15:09] Molly: Me, too.

[15:09] Angel: I know. Because you know something? What if there is stuff inside of me that still makes me cry that these other treatments are going to be able to open that door that the ketamine can't quite unlock? Do you know what I mean?

[15:26] Molly: Totally. I feel the same way, that there's a certain, I don't know, angle that ketamine is really good at. And probably there's a different kind of angle on the same things that ketamine touched or different things entirely that just a different filter of a different. Whether it's mushrooms or MDMA or psilocybin or MDMA or all the ones that are coming down the pipeline. Yeah. The research is so promising. It's very exciting. And it's the first time in 30 or 40 years that mental health has actually had new tools like this.

[16:05] Angel: Long overdue.

[16:06] Molly: Long overdue.

[16:07] Angel: Long overdue. Because you know something? When people see someone with a physiological illness, it's easy for them with their eyes to see the pain, and so they are able to express some sympathy and extra kindness and compassion. And oftentimes people who are suffering mentally are doing it on the down low and totally suffering. Very quietly, because we have this hyper awareness. We know what it's like to suffer, and we don't want to drag anybody down in the sinking ship. And so you keep getting up every morning and do the things, and then when you're alone, you crash and burn and ketamine fixes it so you don't have to keep it. Now, if I'm having a hard time, it's easy for me to say to my daughter, I will walk up to her and say, hey, and I couldn't do this six months ago. Six months ago, I had a conversation with my family and said, when you see me not eating well, when you walk in and I'm on the couch sleeping, and when you notice I'm not talking much, I need a treatment. Now I can walk up to my daughter six months later and say, I'm not doing okay. It's time for me to schedule a session. And the healing is not always going to be big, huge jumps, but to me, that's big because.

[17:32] Molly: Absolutely. Because it makes other healing possible. If you can communicate with the people, with your support network, that's just such a catalyst to all sorts of other positive changes. It is.

[17:44] Angel: And as a mom, I'm also setting the example, right, that you need to articulate when you're not okay. You need to say it. You need to say the words, and there's no shame in that, and it's okay. And you're loved and supported, and it took somebody, just an older woman that I spoke with one day, and she said, you do realize you're the matriarch of your family now? And that blew me away. And I said, oh, my gosh, then I need to up my game. I got to make sure that I leave this good example for my children and my grandchildren, that it's okay if you're not doing okay. You don't have to put on this strong front, and it's okay to ask for help and say, I need somebody to help hold me up because I can't hold myself up right now. And hopefully they're seeing that and learning from it. And I keep telling them, if you ever feel like you're not okay, you say the word and you're going to go get a consult with the ketamine doctor. It's worth it.

[19:03] Molly: I forgot until now that we have a lightning round to end off the interview. If you're up for it. It's just a couple of quick questions. Okay, great. So the idea here is just to give practical advice, understanding, of course, with the caveat, of course, that different stuff works for different people. Different. Your mileage may vary to all the listeners out there, but for people who are newer to ketamine or thinking about trying it for the first time, do you have any practical advice for ketamine patients about music? For example, do you listen to music? How do you choose it? Is it silence? What's your preference?

[19:49] Angel: Well, it's only been recently that I have started incorporating music, and I choose Reiki music, and I have my favorite. I tried a different one this last time, and I found the experience a little different. And so I'm going to go back to my original, and it's just something on Spotify that. And so it's meditation music, but it's specifically noted as Reiki music. And I appreciate that that has helped me to access some different healing that I haven't up until now. So it's really an individual thing. I know that this friend of mine who has a whole platform on ketamine treatments, has a playlist of songs that she listens to, and they might remind her of that time when she was a teenager, and just for example. And so that song, now she can relate that song to a better experience instead of pain. And because music already in my everyday life stirs so much emotion and is connected and attached to so many things, I choose not to use songs that I would listen to on the radio. I choose a soundtrack that is more reiki related or meditation, but it's really individual.

[21:11] Molly: Right. And do you listen to different Reiki music, or do you tend to go back to the same?

[21:18] Angel: Well, I think that there's one in particular that is my favorite, and I would have to go back to that one because I did stray from it and just try something different that I think that this last one I did, the soundtrack was something like Reiki with Angels or Angel music, and there was just too many bells and chimes, and I found it very distracting. And sometimes it would take me away from an experience that I was having too quickly.

[21:48] Molly: Yeah.

[21:49] Angel: And I wasn't done. So I feel like that's something that people have to play with. Like I said, sometimes I want silence. Sometimes my brain is just so, feel so tired. I don't want the distraction of music. And so I put the noise cancellation on and I just go into myself. And more often than not, personally, I prefer that. I really prefer to go in because I'm having a conversation with myself in ketamine.

[22:29] Molly: Right.

[22:30] Angel: And I don't know if you do that, if your logic brain is having a conversation with this emotional brain. But I do that.

[22:42] Molly: Yeah, sometimes I feel that way. Sometimes I feel like. Sometimes I feel an urge to ask the ketamine a question, and it almost feels like the ketamine is like, man, don't do that. You're not the boss here.

[23:05] Angel: Yeah, it's kind of more like I feel like it's part of my intention. So whatever my intention is, as I'm going in, I'm repeating the intention and I have a goal. And so when I start to get sidetracked and something else is happening, I will have this conversation and say, remember, you came into this because you're looking for connection with self. Remember, you're looking for this. No, I'm telling you. And sometimes it's not great for me. And the doctor always says to me, let the brain do what the brain wants to do. And I say, but I am the master of my brain. But it's not indeed that way. I mean, the brain and the spirit are the masters. Sometimes I just have to hand the steering wheel over and go, okay. I mean, you're absolutely right. Sometimes we just need to keep our mouth shut and our thoughts quiet and let it do what it has to do.

[24:05] Molly: It is such an interesting dance, right between kind of trying to guide the experience to some degree, like you're saying toward your intention, that kind of thing, and also kind of getting out of the way and letting things surprise you.

[24:20] Angel: Yeah. And that is so well put. That's perfect. That's exactly how it is. And it's really an individual thing because, like I said, this friend of mine, she listens to her playlist and changes it up every single, and she's been in treatment for seven years.

[24:37] Molly: Wow.

[24:38] Angel: And I just can't do that. Things are very loud in my brain already. Right.

[24:46] Molly: Same here. Okay. What about physical comfort? Do you have any recommendations for, either at home or in the clinic, things that you like to do to make it a relaxing, comfortable experience?

[25:02] Angel: I have a neck pillow, so, like, a traveling pillow that is just for my ketamine treatments, and a nice fuzzy blanket. Because the thing about ketamine is you do tend to get kind of chilly. So make sure you dress comfortably. Make sure that you have a comfort fuzzy blanket or whatever is going to suit you for feeling chilly, especially my extremities. My hands and my feet get really chilly. So I make sure that I plan for that. I have my pillow. I make sure that I bring water, because coming out of it, I mean, I have to have Zofran yeah.

[25:38] Molly: For the nausea.

[25:39] Angel: Yeah. And that just makes me really thirsty. And whatever is going to bring you comfort, whatever is going to make you feel okay. Because, look, ketamine is not a walk in the park. It is not some kind of experience that anyone really looks forward to. I told my husband it's an investment in me, and I know that I can plan on being really sick afterwards, but I have to do it. And so I try to make myself as comfortable as I can while I'm doing it. And afterwards, like I said, it's hard. So many of us are going to have to travel to get home after. That's the hardest part. It's the ride home because I'm still tripping. Make sure you have sunglasses.

[26:33] Molly: Oh, that's a good point. I've been meaning to bring that exact thing up on this podcast, actually. Always bring sunglasses.

[26:38] Angel: Yeah. And have them right next to you to put on as soon as you come out of your session. Because the second, that's the first thing we do is pop my sunglasses on because I can't handle any. And there is a lot of double vision. So don't freak out. Expect to have to keep one eye closed for an hour. That's what I do. There's no shame in what you have to do to be comfortable because you are taking care of you. This is your healing journey.

[27:14] Molly: I think that's perfectly said. Right? Do what it takes. Do what you need.

[27:18] Angel: Yeah.

[27:20] Molly: Okay. There's sort of a set of final lightning round questions. So the idea is, do you have any advice or suggestions for the following types of people? So there'll be five people, because there's people besides patients that are listening to this, their allies, their family members, doctors. I mean, therapists. Who knows? I hope there's people like that listening. Who knows?

[27:47] Angel: Yes.

[27:49] Molly: So do you have any advice that you would give to ketamine clinicians?

[27:54] Angel: I would say really take the time to help the patient understand what an intention or integration is. So help them to prepare to go into the journey, help them to prepare to come out of it, because until you are well experienced in having these treatments, you can kind of feel like you're being tossed around a little bit when you come out of it and you have to be intentional about your healing afterwards. And it really took me a while to figure that out. Even with all the exposure, with what's available online or social media or my clinic, it really took me a hot minute to figure out that I need to be intentional during this window of time after my ketamine session. And so that means making sure that I'm not being exposed to anything or anyone who's going to upset me and maybe have some comfort foods on hand. I make sure I've got bagels and apples when I get home. I'm not okay. And my daughters know that mom is going to want half a bagel and an apple. And it's just all these little things that you're not going to the dentist for filling. You're just going to come home and whatever, that just happens.

[29:22] Molly: Right.

[29:23] Angel: You're kind of going to be a little tipsy, turvy, even to your core, because there is stuff healing inside of you that you're not even aware of. I would say make sure that you take the time to really help them go into the journey, help them to come out and be aware that they're going to need to prepare for when they get home.

[29:48] Molly: Yeah, I think that's a great. I think the education about what it's like and what needs to happen before and after is really lacking for in most cases, I think most of us are not prepared. And hopefully there's more information out there, more and more every day, luckily. Okay. Second group of people is psychiatrists or other physicians. And this doesn't necessarily have to do with ketamine, but just dealing with mental health. Or however, if there's anything, even complaints, suggestions, advice, whatever you think for psychiatrists or other physicians.

[30:24] Angel: Well, something. I think that the approach to mental illness is shifting a little bit. And I was just listening to, I think it was a talk show, and they were discussing how a lot of doctors are trying to gear away from diagnoses instead of labeling somebody something. Maybe what doctors need to spend more time doing is looking at the history of the patient. And I'm just really fortunate that I've landed in the office of the doctor that I have because I had expressed to her that I was experiencing these things. And I said, does that mean that I have this label? And she kind of smiled and said, do these experiences make you scared? Do you feel scared when you've experienced them? And I said, not at all. I'm rarely scared. And she said, then I would say, because of your contact on the spiritual side of life, then I wouldn't worry about it. And so I really feel like in some cultures, people who suffer mental illness would be considered healing healers by shamans. And so I appreciate the doctors who are open minded enough to step away from the diagnosis. The labels. Let's step away from the labels, and let's look at the person as a being, and, wow, you have been through some real garbage. Most things are just a trauma response, and there are just some doctors out there I know because I have been in their office. There are some doctors who don't acknowledge that, that, oh, well, don't worry about this label. That's a Trauma response. You are having a trauma response. So what we need to do is help you learn some coping mechanisms so that you don't get stuck there. And I guess I would just say, take the time to get to know people as a whole. Maybe talk to them, maybe find out what happened to you, because we aren't born full of this kind of pain, right? So I would say, if I could say this to a room full of doctors, that's what I would say. Take the time. Don't forget that these are people having a very human experience, and it's painful sometimes.

[33:16] Molly: Right? I hear defenses of that exact request of people say, well, there's this whole system, this healthcare system, that doesn't allow doctors to take the time. And I agree. That's true. Fair enough. But we all, including them, need to be working on changing that system, because it's cruel. It can be really cruel.

[33:40] Angel: It can. We do have the online therapy, and now zoom is such a big thing with therapy. So I also wish that maybe doctors could help a patient who is already so exhausted with depression or mental illness, say, okay, this is the link, or this is the name contact. Go here, and that's going to be your homework. And when you come back in a month, I want to know who it is you're talking to. I understand that you can't hold somebody accountable for every single thing, but there just needs to be a deeper interest in helping people survive mental illness. And I know that because I've lost people to mental illness. So my brother suffered his entire life with bipolar, and the man was so exhausted, he couldn't hold on for one more day. And I just really desire things to shift so that more time is taken with people. Maybe more compassion. Instead, let's diagnose you and write you a prescription. There needs to be another step.

[34:58] Molly: I heard one family member say something like, there was an acronym that went along with it, but basically the idea was, nobody brings a casserole when you're mentally ill. Like, the neighbors don't come by the way they might if you broke your leg. And I thought that was such a good way to put it. We don't care for it the same way. We don't wrap our arms around with tenderness as a culture the same way.

[35:30] Angel: Yeah, that is great. I really like that. I mean, it's sad, but it's true. But these very people would show up with a casserole after the fact when it's too late.

[35:44] Molly: I have to interject here because the audio got so bad, you could not understand my question to Angel, which was, what advice would you give to friends, allies, family members, members of your support network?

[36:04] Angel: I can only speak from my experience, and what I experience is something very supportive from my children. My daughters are fully invested in helping me. And so it really is being able to be present with the person who is in ketamine treatment because there are times that for the hour and a half trip home, I am crying. I am simply sobbing. And I can't really articulate to my daughter why, but sometimes she'll just hold my hand or. I know, mom, I understand. And to be present, and there is a whole population of people who can't be present with others who are crying and just really be fully present with the person that you love that is in ketamine treatment, because there's nothing easy about the sessions and there's nothing easy about the integration. And so being gentle, being patient, compassionate, and being willing to tend to your loved one. I mean, I need tending to on the night that I get home from ketamine. I just need that care. And so that is the number one thing. That is no time to discuss anything upsetting or even remotely controversial with. Yeah, I don't want to hear about anything upsetting about your day. I don't want to hear about the news. And a lot of times, I just stay right off my phone because while I can choose uplifting things, it's very easy for something bad to slip in there. And that can change the course of your healing, because then, at least with me, I doze off. And you want to know what I'm dreaming about? I'm dreaming about that one bad thing that slipped through. And I don't want that healing to take place during that window. And so I want to heal from really good, uplifting places, not places that cast a shadow. Support your loved one, anything that they need. Just be there without question and removing the stigma. Can I just say this? Coming out of the clinic, I'm always feeling so humiliated because, first of all, I have sunglasses on. I'm stumbling. I've got my arm around my daughter. She's helping me walk out. I'm nauseous, I'm pale. Sometimes I'm sobbing. And it hasn't happened often, but sometimes I come into the walk through the waiting room and there will be somebody sitting there with a loved one. And I always feel so humiliated. And I will climb into our vehicle and cry about that, and my daughter will say, mom, they're there for that, too. And in fact, they felt so, so much sympathy. I don't know if you noticed, but he jumped up and held the door open for us. And he even asked, do you need me to help you get out to the vehicle? And she said, mom, everybody needs some help. And these people that are here in the waiting room, they understand. And so it's a very emotional roller coaster when you're coming out of ketamine and having somebody there that is willing to invest enough in you to comfort you and pull you out of that headspace and say, hey, let's leave that shame at the door. There's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's no different than having to go to the hospital to get treatment because you're sick. It's okay. And you just need somebody that can be that rock, somebody that can be that tree for you to stand up against. And I'm fortunate enough to have that. And I just hope that everybody else does.

[40:30] Molly: I guess, finally, what advice or suggestions might you have for someone considering trying ketamine? Someone with treatment resistant depression who's on the fence about it?

[40:47] Angel: Just do it.

[40:49] Molly: Simple enough, right?

[40:50] Angel: Just do it. Don't torture yourself for months with the fears and the what ifs, because it really as eloquent, as my doctor put it, just so eloquently, when he said, there's just nothing scarier than untreated depression. There is nothing scarier than untreated depression. Go. I mean, you've got nothing to lose. And the sky is the limit. Once you start ketamine, the sky is the limit.

[41:24] Molly: That's so beautiful. I'm so happy that it was so helpful for you.

[41:30] Angel: It saved me. It saved my life because I was at the end, I was done. And I until have been there, you just have no idea how terrifying that is. Especially when you become healthy and you look back and I go, oh, thank you, whoever is out there protecting me, thank you. I'm so glad I'm still here because I came so close to not being, and I can't imagine my kids and grandkids not having me. I can't imagine not being here to watch them grow. So just, you got nothing to lose. Do it.

[42:16] Molly: Thank you so much, Angel. This was a really wonderful experience to listen to. You tell your story. I'm so glad that the interview was formatted that way because I feel like I would have missed out on so much of your perspective and wisdom if I had been asking specific questions the whole time.

[42:34] Angel: I don't. I've really. Thank you so much, Molly, for saying that. I was feeling very anxious just because so much of my experience, as I said, is so spiritual. And I feel like that's kind of. People don't talk about that very often, even with the people that I have exposure to. Other fellow ketamine patients, I will ask, like, are you having spiritual experiences or is this just a me thing? And they'll say, oh, yeah, but they immediately go to something else. And so I was kind of hesitant to come onto your program, on your podcast and discuss so much of the spiritual aspect to it because it's not my intention to make anyone uncomfortable, but there really is this whole side to pain and healing, and that requires a spiritual aspect that can look like anything. It doesn't have to look like any one thing. It can be anything that you consider spiritual. It can be nature. And a lot of times, Mother Nature is what I'm experiencing now in the ketamine. It's just that there's a spiritual healing that has gone unnoticed, and that's what we so desperately need so much of the time.

[43:53] Molly: I agree. Yeah.

[43:55] Angel: I spent the last two years before I found ketamine begging therapist to therapist, please help me find spiritual healing. And then I found ketamine. So whatever you need, whatever your soul needs, whatever your mind and your heart need, ketamine is going to take care of it.

[44:20] Molly: I'm so glad that you took the risk to talk about that aspect of it, because I think part of the hope of including interviews in the podcast is to kind of show the diversity of experiences and to show there's no. I think a lot of people going into ketamine are worried they're going to do it wrong.

[44:44] Angel: Yeah.

[44:45] Molly: And they're going to somehow mess it up, and then it's not going to work right, and they're going to have a bad experience, or they're going to come out of it thinking the wrong thing instead of the better thing. I think part of the hope is that people will see the diversity of experiences and understand that there's no predicting what it'll be like for you. But hopefully it'll help. And I always feel the need to say it doesn't help everybody. And I've been through treatments. I'm sure you have, too. Of course that have a lot of promise and then don't work out. So I don't want to make any promises to people. But so far it is the best thing that we've got. In the toolbox. Yeah, in the toolbox. And that it's not easy. Right. But it can be just profoundly life changing.

[45:43] Angel: As you said, whether a person is struggling with mental illness or PTSD, we've all experienced loss. No one is ever going to get away from experiencing loss in this. And especially where complicated loss is concerned, ketamine is really helpful in helping people cope with complicated loss because it's very easy to get stuck in grief, and ketamine helps you to climb out of that grief. And that's not something that I feel like is heavily advertised. It helps with PTSD and anxiety and depression. But yes, indeed, it's been shown to help people who are stuck in the grieving process, to help them move to the next step, because it's so easy to get stuck and there's nothing wrong with anybody who is stuck. It's just such a hard thing to cope with. And if you don't have the coping mechanisms or the right support or whatever your recipe is, then it's very easy to get stuck and you don't need to stay there. That's really what caused me to finally spiral, was just this grief that swallowed me whole. And the ketamine said, oh, you're still in there. You're still in there. You're not about the grief. And I really just wanted to say that, too, before we parted ways. Is that this is also for people who are grieving?

[47:30] Molly: Yeah, I think that is very helpful. I think there's so many people out there in that situation, and in the situation you describe about really feeling that they need spiritual healing, and there's not a lot of room for that. Like you said, in the mental health system, there's not a lot of tools people have to help people in that sort of crisis. So I really appreciate you highlighting both of those things.

[48:01] Angel: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. I was very hesitant, but thank you for making me feel better about just taking the dive and discussing it because I was going to change the course of the discussion and not cover my spiritual experiences. Because, as you even stated, it really helped you with your relationship with your grandmother being where she is now, and it changes things for the better because then you're working with a healed brain instead of a brain that is just so bogged down.

[48:42] Molly: Right. Tackling things that are difficult to talk about is another kind of blessing and virtue of its own. That's kind of one of the points of the whole podcast also, is just to get it out there, talk about it, and you don't know. I think so often we're suffering from very similar things, but we could be right next to each other and not know it.

[49:05] Angel: Yeah, the stigma. It's the stigma. And I'm so grateful for people like you with these podcasts because you are helping to remove that stigma. And I'm living testimony to Ketamine because a year ago, I would have never reached out to someone who has a podcast to ask for an interview. Never. I would think about it and dream about it, but I would never, ever feel brave enough or have enough confidence to do something like, you know, all of a sudden, one day I was like, you know, I really love Molly's podcast and I'm just going to email her.

[49:46] Molly: I'm so glad you did, and thank you so much for that. I'm so glad you like it.

[49:50] Angel: Oh, I love it. And I keep waiting for new ones to come out. 

[49:57] Molly: Yeah, I know. It's a struggle over here, but they're coming. They are coming.

[50:00] Angel: But just so you know, you've got fans out here that are like, wow. And I was so excited when I found your podcast because I thought, surely if I type in ketamine in the podcast app, nothing. And when you popped up, I was hooked. And I listened to every single episode because there is comfort. There is so much comfort in knowing that there are other people experiencing your experiences and having the same treatments and that you're not afraid to talk about.

[50:35] Molly: Right, right. And it's about setting an example, like you said, to your daughters and your grandkids and every example, every one of us that goes out and talks about it makes it a little easier, hopefully for the next just, I want to thank you so much, Angel, for coming on the show. I'm so glad we were able to have this conversation. I really appreciate it, and I hope maybe we know you're right. We could talk about. I feel like we could talk for another couple days.

[51:04] Angel: I do, too.

[51:08] Molly: Well, thank you, Angel.

[51:10] Molly: Thank you, listeners, for sharing your time with us today. And deep thanks to Angel for sharing this wonderful story.

[51:17] Molly: If you would like to come on the show, please email us at ketamininsights@gmail.com. If you enjoy our work, please help us out by liking and subscribing. Our website has links to all the ways you can send us money. That's at ketamininsights.com. This podcast is hosted, produced, and edited by me, Molly Dunn. Our theme song is by Solid State Symphony. We'll see you soon. And in the meantime, remember to advocate for yourself and never ration your joy.

[51:51] Theme Song: She's sometimes sad. She's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene, let's sit back and talk about ketamine. close.