Ketamine Insights

Listening to Your Body, Your Psyche, and Ketamine: Somatic Experiencing and Internal Family Systems

• Season 2 • Episode 8

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Lynn and Molly discuss Somatic Therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS), two therapeutic modalities often used alongside ketamine treatments. Molly shares a story of Somatic Experiencing, describing how different body sensations revealed helpful emotional insights. We discuss the interweaving relationships between trauma, the body, talk therapy, and therapeutic ketamine.

The conversation then shifts to Internal Family Systems, exploring how listening to our different internal "parts" can bring healing. We emphasize that, within IFS, every part of you gets a seat at the table, gets to be heard and understood. We discuss the IFS concept of an internal "Self," a permanent and unbreakable internal place of connectedness from which we can facilitate our own healing.

Throughout, we highlight how ketamine can work alongside these modalities.

Lorna Skuraton, LMT is the brilliant massage therapist, holder of space, and healer that Molly mentions at the top of the episode. If you're in Chicago, check out her company Venous Return for wonderful massages and powerful Somatic Experiencing sessions.

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[00:00:00] Theme Song: She's sometimes sad, she's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene. Let's sit back and talk about Ketamine.

[00:00:17] Molly: Okay, now we're recording. Can you hear me

[00:00:22] Lynn: All right. I can hear ya.

[00:00:24] Molly: Hey,

Hi, Lynn. How you doing?

[00:00:26] Lynn: I'm doing all right. How about you?

[00:00:28] Molly: I'm good. Thank you.

so today we're going to talk about two different types of therapy that are often used with ketamine treatments.


[00:00:37] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:00:39] Molly: the first one is somatic therapy and the second one is internal family systems.


[00:00:45] Lynn: Mm


[00:00:45] Molly: And they're both often used with ketamine for different reasons and we'll go into that.


But I wanted to start. With a story about my own experience with somatic therapy that happened to me recently which I've been meaning to tell you about Lynn anyway, 


[00:01:01] Lynn: let's do it.


[00:01:02] Molly: So this actually wasn't with a therapist. This was with a woman who's a massage therapist and also trained in a couple of different modalities, including somatic experiencing.


So it was like, you know, in a massage sort of environment with a table and I'm like laying clothed on the table and kind of, it's a 90 minute like energy healing, I guess, thing. And what happened was like really, really interesting. I was, I didn't know what to expect, but there were four distinct, like messages that I got throughout, like during the session.


[00:01:41] Lynn: You mean like you just, like she gave you those messages or you just received them somehow within


[00:01:47] Molly: It was the latter.


[00:01:49] Lynn: Okay.


[00:01:51] Molly: It was like my body was telling me things and it was very clear. Like it was not ambiguous. Yeah. So the first one came like, I often get headaches at the base of my skull, like where my neck meets my skull. And I had a little bit of really, yeah, like those tension headaches.


[00:02:09] Lynn: Mm


[00:02:10] Molly: So I had a little pain there.


And she put her hands like, You know, she was putting her fingertips kind of at the base of my skull and as I was laying on my back, and I just got this like, it felt good to have that pressure there. And I was like, Okay, I need this support in order for the pain to stay away. And I, and I was immediately kind of afraid.


You know, just like in a very tolerable way, I was afraid that it would stop. And I knew what it meant immediately, which was just that, like, I, I need the support of my friends and family and I, and without it, I'm, I'm really screwed. Like I'm properly screwed. And I was just afraid. And I feel that fear all the time that like, I won't get the support that I need, even though I have a great network of friends and family.


And so as I realized that I was like saying it out loud to her and she was like, cool, You know and that just sort of passed, and I had that kind of understanding very easily. And then the next thing I felt was like this, my jaw got really like tense, like not in a, it didn't hurt, but it was like my, like you set your jaw, you know, and I felt like very stubborn or defensive, I guess. And I, and it immediately, again, it had like a message to it, which was that like, you're not. Like I have something to defend like for a long time. I felt like very sick and also that my life really sucked. And now I feel kind of sick and my life doesn't suck.


[00:03:45] Lynn: Wow.


[00:03:46] Molly: And I felt like very protective of that progress, right?


Like I've got a wonderful partner now. I like where I live. I have like all these things to defend. And I felt like I was setting my I've got this great podcast with this great co host. And so I felt very protective of those things. And that felt very positive. It felt like, you know, defensive, but defensive in the way that like maybe a mother feels defensive, like very protective in a very healthy, supportive way.


So that felt really nice actually, too.


[00:04:17] Lynn: Is that something you had thought of before this? Or it just kind of solidified at that moment?


[00:04:22] Molly: It solidified for me in that moment. Like, I, I know. Of course, day to day that my life is way better than it was five or eight years ago. But it felt very clear, like, when going into uncertain situations, I was much more vulnerable than I am now. In a way, like, now I'm, I'm sturdier because of the, because I have a good thing going, I guess.


And I just felt very defensive of that, very happy to have something worth fighting for, I


[00:04:56] Lynn: Yeah. Wow. It's powerful.


[00:04:58] Molly: that felt very, yeah, it felt, it felt more explicit, more clear than I had thought of it that way before. And then that kind of just passed, like I said it out loud again to her and she and then it was just kind of like a body scan, like I'm thinking about where else do I feel things in my body as the setness in the jaw kind of passed.


[00:05:17] Lynn: Did she tell you like, okay, to do a body scan or were you


[00:05:21] Molly: I can't remember. I think she might have. Yeah. And she was, she was also like constantly asking me for, consent, like, you know, is the pain intolerable? Can we continue? Are you how do you feel? Like, you know, general stuff like that, which I found really helpful because it felt very, like a very safe environment.


And then I felt something kind of like a menstrual cramp, like a cramp, but underneath my belly button.


[00:05:44] Lynn: Mm hmm. Mm


[00:05:45] Molly: felt like, and so I I told her about it and she asked me to like kind of hold my belly or like hold like, you know, put my hands there. And it felt very, again, it was like a very clear message that I got.


I was so surprised that these messages were just like very straightforward. It was like, you know, it was a bit of mourning, like mourning that I never had kids.


[00:06:05] Lynn: Mm.


[00:06:06] Molly: that was just, it was also like, like, I know that about my life. I know I wish I had had kids, but then There was also this kind of like wave of acceptance that was just like, you know, your life, like back to the jaw thing, like the life that you've built now without kids is a good life and you're happy about it, and it was very like warm and welcoming of this current situation, like acknowledging the grieving and also kind of like moving beyond it in a


[00:06:35] Lynn: Mm.


[00:06:37] Molly: which was like really good news, because I didn't really know.


I feel like my body was like a step ahead of me on that one.


[00:06:44] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:06:45] Molly: I didn't realize that I was beyond it, you know what I mean?


[00:06:50] Lynn: That's amazing.


[00:06:52] Molly: Yeah, and that felt really good. It felt like refreshing. And then there was kind of a long pause and I didn't feel much. And then I felt pain in my left knee. Which is like, I never, I don't have any association, any emotional association with my left knee at all. And she put her hands on my left knee and it just kind of was like throbbing and aching and all of a sudden it was like my body was, was like done with all the like like family stuff, I guess.


Like, it was like, okay, now that I've got the time, let me tell you about this other thing that we need to work on. Which was actually, like I started getting like like slides of memories of my time in Tanzania. And they were like really neutral scenes. Like I went traveling with a friend of mine and her husband once and we stopped, we like chose this one bed and breakfast because they were going to have breakfast and we had to leave really early the next day.


And then the next day the breakfast was like, A banana and tea. We were like really hungry and really disappointed and it was just, but it wasn't, you know, that's not like a big emotional story. It was just a thing that happened one morning in Tanzania


[00:08:03] Lynn: And that was associated with your left knee? That's odd.


[00:08:07] Molly: And I just started getting these like neutral memories from the various times I went to Tanzania in my 20s and 30s. And then all of a sudden it like zoomed in on my my Swahili teacher when I was there. And I thought about him. He passed away of cancer. Maybe 15 years ago. And my friend who you knew who we worked with, who passed away as well.


And it was just this message from, from my self saying, like, You had these, you got the chance to have these friendships with these people who grew up so far away and lived these different lives from you and like, you're overwhelmed by the tragedy of their death. But you're never, you're not really spending any time with great memories that you have of them.


[00:08:56] Lynn: Wow.


[00:08:57] Molly: And it was really kind of this imperative to like, people yeah, yeah. About these two men that I got the chance to know and like my Swahili teacher was such a wonderful mentor, Mr. Kamaro, and like just a wonderful, wonderful guy. And the same with Jimmy who we worked with, like it was just a wonderful, they were both really, really cool guys who I got to like just have this random great friendship with, these great friendships.


And so it was like, You know, a nudge to me to stop being kind of preoccupied with the tragedy of their death and kind of to celebrate their life


[00:09:30] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:09:32] Molly: and to not use like the excuse that like, nobody I know really in America knew either of these people. And so it's easy just not to talk about them. But it was just this urge to like, tell stories about about these two guys,


[00:09:47] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:09:48] Molly: the people today,


[00:09:50] Lynn: Wow.


[00:09:52] Molly: which felt like, Isn't that something?


[00:09:55] Lynn: that really is. And that you are holding that in your body somewhere. And in your left knee.


[00:10:02] Molly: In my left knee of all places.


[00:10:04] Lynn: Interesting.


[00:10:05] Molly: Like so, it felt like the other things were kind of prescient and like current. And this was something that I, you know, these people literally it's been 15 years since I knew either Jimmy or Mr. Kamara. Yeah, so so anyway, that was kind of that's an example of like somatic experiencing I guess where I was it, you know, it was I was feeling these things in my body, but there was also this like Emotional or you know this component of meaning


[00:10:36] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:10:37] Molly: That was crazy It was a really crazy experience and I felt like much lighter leaving the room than I had walking into it


[00:10:43] Lynn: That's really awesome.


[00:10:46] Molly: I guess like the the One of the cool things about it to me was that, like, I always have this feeling, like, tell me if you feel this way, Lynn, that,


[00:10:54] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:10:55] Molly: with therapy and stuff, I feel like I know, like my brain knows certain things that I can't convince my body of, like I know, for example, like I suffer with like hyper vigilance.


I know that I'm safe in my mind, but my body seems to like continue to be tense and like aware.


[00:11:14] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:11:14] Molly: I feel like I'm dragging my body into the present. Whereas like with this, experiencing the somatic experiencing, it was the opposite. It was like my body was,


[00:11:25] Lynn: you. Your body's dragging your mind. Yeah, that's really interesting. How fascinating. And like, we very rarely actually slow down and get in touch with our bodies enough to actually let our bodies do that to our minds.


[00:11:42] Molly: Exactly.


[00:11:44] Lynn: fascinating.


[00:11:45] Molly: Yeah. It felt like,


[00:11:47] Lynn: Mm


[00:11:48] Molly: like I said, about the last one, the knee pain, it was like, this is 15 years old. Like, it felt like if for the past 10 years, if I had sat down and listened in that way, my body could have let me know that, you know what I mean?


[00:11:59] Lynn: Yeah. Are you making me want to like sit down and meditate right now?


[00:12:05] Molly: right. And just like, tune


[00:12:07] Lynn: yeah, absolutely. That's really


[00:12:10] Molly: it was crazy. I'm, I'm definitely planning to go back to see her again. Cause I found it really, really helpful.


[00:12:17] Lynn: Okay. So tell me again, what were her, what, like, what was her, what was she kind of advertising? Like people are looking for someone like this. It was like massage therapist and somatic experiencing.


[00:12:28] Molly: Yeah. So she is trained in somatic experiencing, but also Reiki and. Several other modalities. I think, like, I don't know how you find, I found her through a friend and originally just went to her to get a massage a couple times and I found her very, you know, I just like really liked her presence. She was very supportive and I, and I, I really liked the idea of having someone who is trained in all these different modalities that like I could go to and just be like, this is what I'm dealing with.


Yeah. Like, what, what do you recommend? Would you, she does like lymph drainage work too, like all these different kind of physical healing ways. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. She's a dancer herself. And


[00:13:18] Lynn: Yeah, sometimes you see these things like listed, you know, in, on websites and stuff and you sort of wonder like, Yeah, should I explore this or is, should I just get a massage or, you know, or what, you know, and you, you wonder,


[00:13:34] Molly: it's impossible to know if they're any good at it or if it's real.


[00:13:38] Lynn: yeah, totally. But it could be amazing. Yeah. So this is really cool to hear. So the first couple of times you went, you just got a massage and then, then you were


[00:13:47] Molly: I didn't want to


[00:13:48] Lynn: want to go deeper.


[00:13:49] Molly: right, I didn't want to like make myself vulnerable


[00:13:52] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:13:54] Molly: early on. I was like, a bad massage, I've had a bad


[00:13:56] Lynn: Yeah, totally. Yeah. That's a good call. 


[00:13:59] Molly: Yeah, she just seemed very tuned in. She has a dog named Whiskey that, that like, helps sometimes, like hangs out if you're comfortable with it. And like, I've never had this done, but I have a friend


[00:14:11] Lynn: Wait, how does the dog help? Does he like walk on your back? Brings hot


[00:14:14] Molly: jump up on the


[00:14:15] Lynn: What?


[00:14:15] Molly: Yeah. And like, hang out, like, he'll like lay at your feet while


[00:14:19] Lynn: cute. Aww.


[00:14:24] Molly: sweet dog. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, her name is Lorna Skuriton, and I will put her link in the show notes for those of you who are in Chicago, because it was really powerful and fun.


[00:14:37] Lynn: That's amazing.


[00:14:38] Molly: I don't know about fun, but I felt like there were great insights. And to be fair about the fun thing, it wasn't unpleasant, you know what I mean?


And I am always on the lookout for better things. Ways to heal that don't hurt


[00:14:54] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What were you like crying? Were any, any of these sensations and were you like crying as they happened? You were okay, but not in a pain, not a painful way. Okay.


[00:15:06] Molly: No, it wasn't because of pain. It was just because of like the gravity of the subject matter


[00:15:13] Lynn: Okay.


[00:15:13] Molly: But it wasn't it didn't feel tragic. It just felt emotional You know, it felt like good news all three all


[00:15:19] Lynn: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. When you went home, was it like, Oh my God, I'm so drained or yeah.


[00:15:26] Molly: Yeah,


[00:15:26] Lynn: Sort of like after an intense therapy session, kind of a


[00:15:29] Molly: Exactly. Yeah, I just need a nap and please be nice to me and let me just


[00:15:35] Lynn: Yeah. Wow. That's really cool.


[00:15:40] Molly: Yeah, I was really impressed. I was really, really impressed. And I told my therapist all about it. And she checked to make sure that I had a therapist before we


[00:15:47] Lynn: Okay. Yeah.


[00:15:48] Molly: She's like, you might want to have like, things might come up that you want to work through with a professional therapist.


And so I talked to my therapist a day or two later, and he was so excited for me. He was like, this is great. That's great news. Like, she sounds like she was really good. And


[00:16:03] Lynn: so cool. How did she do this?


[00:16:06] Molly: I don't know. That was the thing. Like, I talked about this in the last episode with the interview with my friend Betsy Merbitz, the midwife, that like the holding space, like what does that mean


[00:16:20] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:16:20] Molly: when you're holding space?


I feel like that's what she did. She just held space for me. And my body was like, Oh, thank God.


[00:16:26] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:16:28] Molly: And I don't know how she did that. I don't know what that is,


[00:16:32] Lynn: I don't know. It's really wild.


[00:16:36] Molly: for it.


[00:16:36] Lynn: Yeah. That's amazing. Mm-Hmm?


[00:16:40] Molly: so that's like one kind of somatic, one type of somatic work, I guess. And another one that I've worked on with my therapist and I think one that's more similar to what people do with ketamine, is like, you kind of tell, Often you like agree beforehand of like kind of the outline of what you're going to do.


And then you you sit and like tell a story of what of like maybe a traumatic event or something that you're trying to work through. You tell the story very, very slowly, like very in as much detail as you can remember. And you're like constantly checking in with your body as you go. So you're like, Okay.


you know, my heart is racing, or my head feels hot, or you know, you're saying out loud, along with the story, like what it's doing in your body. And then often you'll feel the need to like, if you feel fidgety, or if you feel the need to look around the room or whatever, you're supposed to kind of like follow your body's, you know, And even if that means, like, get up and walk away or whatever and like, you're, you're telling your therapist, you're kind of walking through it together, and the idea is that kind of, like, let your body go through it and out the other side.


And the, and you're not really, like, The point of the therapist or one of their main jobs is to try to like keep you within your window of tolerance. So you're not like reliving the experience and getting re traumatized and being overwhelmed and anything like that or getting to a point where it's too painful.


But if you, the idea is like if you let your body experience it and feel its way through it, then eventually the emotions will pass.


[00:18:18] Lynn: Okay.


[00:18:20] Molly: And,


[00:18:21] Lynn: So, did you do this?


[00:18:22] Molly: yeah, I have. And I found it very helpful. It's again, it's like not that pleasant. It's kind of hard to go through and it's very


[00:18:30] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:18:32] Molly: And I found like my experience with it has really, really changed over time.


Like when I first started working with my therapist who's trained in it It was very tricky. Like, it was just hard to do. Like, a lot of people with histories of trauma will have very, like, a lot of us have, like, weird relationships with our bodies, you know, and it can be, like, hard to tune in. I have chronic pain.


[00:18:55] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:18:55] Molly: We, and a lot of people with trauma have chronic pain. We, like, we're not trying to tune into our bodies. Our bodies are full of


[00:19:01] Lynn: You don't want


[00:19:02] Molly: things that are huge. Yeah, it's pain in the ass.


[00:19:04] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:19:06] Molly: And often, so like you're in the habit of repressing or ignoring bodily sensations, and often that is like, to the extent where like, if your therapist asks you like, how does your body feel right now, you're kind of like confused and you don't even know how to answer, you know, and when people tell you to tune in, you're kind of like, okay, I'm sitting in a chair,


[00:19:27] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:19:29] Molly: and it's hard, you don't feel anything because you're so tuned out.


[00:19:33] Lynn: So, did you feel like you were able to tune in and work through it,


[00:19:37] Molly: Eventually,


[00:19:38] Lynn: eventually? And it was, was it useful?


[00:19:42] Molly: Yes, definitely.


[00:19:43] Lynn: Okay.


[00:19:44] Molly: Yeah, like there are things in the past that have caused me like I feel recently I just have a lot of like I feel physical pain when I get upset, like I'll be look like I'll be dreading something that's going to come in two weeks and my my muscles in my back will like seize up and it'll be really painful for those two weeks while I'm kind of dreading this thing that's coming up. And so, So I've, I can, like, I've got a very, like, clear relationship now between, like, emotional stress and pain. And so that used to happen to me. And, like, after going through a somatic experiencing session with my therapist for, like, maybe four or five weeks, we, we worked on it. And the thing that used to cause the dread, like, I still kind of dread it in my head, but I no longer seize up.


[00:20:28] Lynn: Okay. Wow. That's huge.


[00:20:29] Molly: very,


[00:20:30] Lynn: That's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.


[00:20:35] Molly: It's like, you know, it's still a problem, but it's not like caught in my body in the same way.


[00:20:41] Lynn: That's a big deal. And so you're not having that pain.


[00:20:44] Molly: Yeah.


[00:20:45] Lynn: That's cool.


[00:20:46] Molly: is like really bad pain.


[00:20:48] Lynn: Yeah. So I had a, like a brief experience with some somatic therapy, you know, probably almost 12 years ago now after a traumatic experience. And I was experimenting with some different kinds of therapy and someone suggested somatic therapy and I don't, I think I probably did two or three sessions only and I wasn't, and it was like, I think like you're saying, you know, it's sort of like, it's hard.


You have to like really. Go for it. And it's, I think I, maybe it was like it was uncomfortable. And what I remember was was that this therapist was kind of like was trying to do stuff like check in with your body, like how does it feel if I'm like, this close to you or this close to you? And I was having a lot of issues around like, I don't know, like proximity to people, you know, after going through like a violent incident and like, like proximity to people and like how comfortable I felt around people and like sort of safety issues. And she was doing things about around like getting close to me and things like that. And I was just like, I just didn't like it. And


[00:21:54] Molly: Get me the fuck out of


[00:21:55] Lynn: yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Like maybe this could be useful, but I don't really want to pay you to do this with me.


[00:22:04] Molly: Make me very uncomfortable. Yeah.


[00:22:06] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:22:07] Molly: I could see that for sure. And it was, it was, if I'm not wrong, like it was pretty close to the thing


[00:22:13] Lynn: Yeah. It was. It was. Yeah. Maybe it's something that would have been better years later. Yeah. But I think it was a little too fresh. And I was trying like lots of different things. I was like, you know, all in like trying like all these different therapies and it was probably a little bit too much. I was probably too fresh.


Yeah.


[00:22:31] Molly: And I guess like, like clearly it wasn't within your window of tolerance, right? Or you would have been able to do it.


[00:22:39] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:22:40] Molly: And so either she needed to go slower or maybe it just wasn't the right thing at


[00:22:45] Lynn: I think it maybe just wasn't the right thing at the right time,


[00:22:48] Molly: better, there was just a better approach that wasn't that one.


[00:22:52] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. But I could see how, yeah, maybe down the road it could be better or it just was like, yeah, I don't know. I


[00:23:00] Molly: I think that's really important to to note like for the listeners that like just because something works for somebody else does not mean it's what's best for you right now.


[00:23:09] Lynn: yeah.


[00:23:10] Molly: And something could have worked for you in the past and it's not going to work for you this time or vice versa didn't work for you and it might work for you now


[00:23:17] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:23:17] Molly: things are so subjective and time sensitive and


[00:23:21] Lynn: Yeah. But absolutely. I mean, the fact that, that I was trying that, like, weeks after this incident, I You know, whereas like months or years after actually could be helped. Like, you know, maybe it'd be helpful now or right. But so soon after, like, it's probably not the right thing, but you


[00:23:43] Molly: be my


[00:23:44] Lynn: perhaps it'd be something to try now


[00:23:47] Molly: Yeah. Yeah. It can, yeah, I think the overwhelm is like such an important part,


[00:23:54] Lynn: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.


[00:23:57] Molly: if you're already fragile, you know, reliving is not, it's not, yeah, obviously it's people. Sometimes people think that, yeah, sometimes people think that's what trauma therapy always has to be is like exposure therapy.


And that's just not the case. There's other ways to do it,


[00:24:16] Lynn: Mm


[00:24:17] Molly: thankfully.


[00:24:18] Lynn: hmm.


[00:24:19] Molly: The. With ketamine and somatic treatment one thing that I want to mention is that usually they do smaller doses of ketamine because otherwise you're kind of, you're so tuned out of your body that you can't really kind of have that conversation.


So the, the helpful thing about the ketamine in this instance is that it like reduces your fear response. So you're able to go there, but you don't want to go so far that you. You kind of can't tune in with your body anymore.


[00:24:49] Lynn: Okay. So, you're actually, so, are you doing an infusion and then you're doing this somatic experiencing with, or somatic therapy with a therapist right there? Or


[00:25:03] Molly: Yeah, there's different ways to do it. I think, like, you can do it with a smaller dose, like if you're just doing a lozenge, a smaller dose lozenge or trochee or whatever and, and kind of working with your therapist. In real time as you're on the lozenge, but you're still very sentient and capable and able to move your body and you're not like dissociating or anything.


Another way to do it is if you're doing a full like infusion dose where you're dissociating and having a trip you might do it like immediately following. So you're not completely high anymore, but you're still a little loopy and you're still feeling kind of like lovely and, you know, Bubbly or something and then you you tell the story and and that's really when like those two instances are when you can feel your body, but you're Your fear response is a little lower and you're a little mellower and more tolerant and able to go into places that you otherwise dead sober would like be a little more afraid to delve into.


[00:26:02] Lynn: Yeah. Okay. Interesting.


[00:26:06] Molly: So that's all I have for somatic work, somatic therapy. I've found it very helpful. It's, it's strange. You know, it really has made me think about how like your body Like, we have this body mind duality in Western culture that's just very helpful sometimes and not helpful at all when you're looking at trauma in particular. So anyway, that's somatic treatment and its relationship with trauma. The second one I wanted to talk about is called internal family systems. And I don't know, like, I'm not trained in any of these. I'm not a therapist, but I have kind of been through them a little bit and I've Even just the description of internal family systems was extremely helpful for me.


Like, I heard about it in a podcast. I was driving, like, by myself a long distance, and I burst into tears behind the steering wheel. Just hearing it described.


[00:27:03] Lynn: It's funny. It sounds so dry to me. I'm like, internal family systems. It sounds like something you would, like, learn about in Psychology 101.


[00:27:10] Molly: It sounds like, like a Encyclopedia Britannica entry or


[00:27:14] Lynn: Totally. And I've heard about it a bit, because my sister in law, who's a therapist, she talks about it, and she is always, like, talking about my this part and my this part, and she, so I hear about it, but I don't really understand it. But I always be like, I'm sure it's useful, but it sounds a little dry to me.


And because I have a bunch of therapists in my family, I hear about these different things, but I don't really know about it. I'm sure it's useful though. Mm


[00:27:37] Molly: sounds so kind of detached, I guess, and it also sounds like something that might be more for families or for, you know, like


[00:27:47] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:27:48] Molly: but it's not. It's about the individual. So the, the basic idea is that I don't, I kind of get uncomfortable or unclear on whether or not they truly literally believe that there are like parts of self behave differently, or if it's just like a helpful way to think about your psychology.


And I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter because it is a helpful way to think about your psychology. So you can truly think that like there's a part of yourself inside that does this and another part that does that. Or you can think like this is just a helpful way to think about it. Whatever you


[00:28:24] Lynn: hmm.


[00:28:25] Molly: but the idea is that you have a family inside of you


[00:28:28] Lynn: Oh.


[00:28:29] Molly: and like a family The different parts can disagree with each other


[00:28:33] Lynn: Okay.


[00:28:34] Molly: and like a family some parts are younger and less mature Some parts are older and might still be you know, not great But they can they might be more informed for example than the immature childlike parts and like So one question that like a ketamine, so one question that I've been asked, like for example, when I'm coming out of therapy with my after when I'm coming out of ketamine, my therapist will say, struggle that you're having, like if I'm describing a struggle, he'll say, how old do you feel when you're talking about it?


[00:29:10] Lynn: Oh, interesting.


[00:29:11] Molly: be like, it's like, I don't know. I feel like I'm about seven or it's like, no, I'm, I'm 25. Like, I don't know. I'm a grownup. I, this is something, you know,


[00:29:19] Lynn: not that grown up. But not that grown up. Twenty five.


[00:29:22] Molly: Right, not


[00:29:22] Lynn: five is like I'm barely a fully formed adult. Yeah.


[00:29:27] Molly: So like, so then that tells you kind of like what kind of part you're dealing with. And the important thing about it being a family is that like, the idea is that every part has a role and every part belongs.


[00:29:45] Lynn: Okay.


[00:29:46] Molly: So there just aren't bad parts.


[00:29:48] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:29:49] Molly: Like, there's no such thing as a bad part of you. Even if


[00:29:52] Lynn: Even if there's like a black sheep part of you, there's like a


[00:29:55] Molly: that's it, exactly,


[00:29:56] Lynn: stepchild part of you.


[00:29:58] Molly: right.


You wouldn't throw out a little kid because they're having a tantrum. You don't put them out of the house. And it's the same with those parts of you that are really struggling. Like, It's like if the idea is like it's like a well functioning or like a like you would want a family to be where you welcome Them back in.


Yeah,


[00:30:18] Lynn: try to be a good family to yourself.


[00:30:20] Molly: right and the idea is like how would you treat a little kid? Who's having a tantrum? You like I don't know if little kid is a great example, but you The idea is to listen to the part and to hear them out. And it is shocking. Like, I've been through some therapy like this, and it's like, it's stunning to me how quickly a part that feels like it's been there forever and that I'm frustrated with because it can't, it can't accept something that's been the case for a lot of years or whatever, like, for example, you could say, like, a parent's divorce.


You could say, like, if it happened when you were 15, and you never, you know, you feel like there's this angry 15 year old inside of you that's still like, what the hell was that about? What happened? Or has is mad about the way it went down or whatever. And you're frustrated with it. You're like, I'm 40 now.


Why am I still mad about this? And I've had, this is just an example. That's like hypothetical and fictional. But Basically, you go back and listen to that part, and you just hear it out. And it is shocking how quickly it kind of calms down


[00:31:26] Lynn: Hmmm


[00:31:27] Molly: and just like, feels better.


[00:31:29] Lynn: Yeah


[00:31:30] Molly: Because in the end, like, they're not trying to be angry forever, but they do want to be heard.


[00:31:38] Lynn: Yeah Interesting


[00:31:40] Molly: And the idea that like There is, there's another part to internal family systems, which is like that there is a permanent self that is kind of like the adult in the room, if you will, at like the family, the mythical or the hypothetical family table that all your different parts are sitting at. And that this self, so I'll, I'll just quote the creator of internal family systems here.


He says, this self with a capital S is a place of inner calm and connectedness from which the patient could help facilitate their own healing and conduct their lives with wisdom and clarity. And the weird, to me, the weird thing about this is that, like, he didn't come up with this as a, like, theory. He found this in his practice, that he's never come across a patient who didn't have that wise voice within them somewhere.


[00:32:38] Lynn: Okay


[00:32:39] Molly: this person was like, terribly suicidal or suffering with an eating disorder or very depressed or, or any like, all these different patients that he's worked with over the decades, they all have this inner voice that is that is wise and can heal. And that's, I think that might be the thing that made me burst into tears was like, the idea that this self is unbreakable, like truly unbreakable and permanent.


Because for me, like, at that point, I had been through electroconvulsive therapy and probably 12 different kinds of antidepressants and magnets on the skull and hospitalization and,


[00:33:18] Lynn: hmmm


[00:33:18] Molly: and, you know, you get to a point where You're just like, I'm not, I can't be fixed. Like, I've tried all these things. And the idea that he could say, like, you're never, he found, you know, kind of empirically that no one was so damaged as to be permanently broken. I just found that, like, such a


[00:33:39] Lynn: Yeah That's huge


[00:33:41] Molly: yeah, it was very, I just found it very, like, Enriching or comforting to hear that,


[00:33:47] Lynn: Hmmm Phh 


[00:33:48] Molly: and to think that there is an adult in the room, like, especially when you're feeling like exasperated or out of control.


You're too anxious. You're too sad. You're too whatever to think like, there's still a part of me that knows what to do next.


[00:34:03] Lynn: Yeah, it's sort of like, it's like you, your mom, not your mom, but you, like this part of you that is the mom, the mature, responsible mom is always there, is there to take care of you. So if you lose control, she's going to step in and, and like sweep the floor and make the bed and. Make dinner and make sure everything's okay


[00:34:26] Molly: And listen to you eventually


[00:34:28] Lynn: Yeah, and listen to you and just be like, you know, it won't be bad at you. Just be like it's fine It's fine. Make you a bowl of soup a cup of tea and put you to put you to bed and


[00:34:38] Molly: Right, put you to bed and right and the important like what they try to do an internal family systems therapy is like Let you place yourself in that mom role like in that responsible adult wise calm


[00:34:52] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:34:53] Molly: and Listen to the other parts of the family And say, okay, I hear you out.


Like I hear, I hear you that that does sound hard.


[00:35:03] Lynn: Like, instead of judging yourself, like, oh, I hate this part of myself that does


[00:35:07] Molly: Why am I still hung up on


[00:35:09] Lynn: yeah, like, I'm such a shitty person, I'm so stupid, I'm like, yeah, that's interesting. Okay, like try to be like, what would a good mom do, a good non judgmental mom or


[00:35:22] Molly: Mm hmm.


[00:35:23] Lynn: do? Like,


[00:35:24] Molly: Right.


[00:35:25] Lynn: interesting. I do feel like stress on the good part of me is like, you know, not all parents don't just yell at their, at their toddlers when they're tantruming.


I've seen parents. Parents that are super mean on the playground and stuff, you know, like there's lots of people who are like not nice to little kids who are losing control. So this internal family system sounds like this is based on like a model of a really good family and Adults who are like really really good to their children.


So you know,


[00:35:56] Molly: Right. Right. Right. It's not, and it's like, it's interesting because the family, like, by design, like, within this system, the family has a problem child and has an angry uncle and has, like, these difficult parts. But the important part to remember is that inside yourself, you do have that good mom, that good adult, wise, present. character who's able, who is able, if you can tune into her or him or whatever, however you want to think of it, you can hear out the other parts and make responsible decisions and healing decisions for yourself. Yeah, which is very like important. They found it. They actually came across like if I remember right, internal family systems was developed working with people with really severe eating disorders. Because the trait or the, the therapy that they often get is like, basically you have to banish the voice in your head that's telling you not to eat, or that's telling you to purge, and you have to banish that voice away. And this guy, Dr. Schwartz found a lot of like tension and conflict within that.


And there, and he, you know, developed this internal family system as a way to like, listen to the idea was like to listen to that voice instead of banishing it and figure out what it wants and what it's trying to do. And it and that's like a very difficult leap, as you, you know, Someone who is, has been fighting with this part of themselves for so long, and this part of themselves seems like it's trying to kill them.


[00:37:34] Lynn: Mm hmm. Mm


[00:37:36] Molly: no joke, you know,


[00:37:37] Lynn: hmm. Mm


[00:37:39] Molly: that to actually listen to it can be really, really difficult. And so one thing that internal family systems is always doing, similar to what we said about the somatic experiencing above is like, there's constant consent. Like you have to constantly ask, like, if you want to talk to a certain part, you ask that part if it's okay to talk to them, you ask them over and over again throughout the conversation if it's okay, if they're, you know, and if they say no, you stop.


Like, you just


[00:38:08] Lynn: Hmm.


[00:38:09] Molly: you bring it up later, you put it on the back burner because it's very, very important, like, I guess you can, you can aggravate, you know, if you're talking to a voice that's trying to, that seems like it's trying to kill you, like, it needs to be ready to have a conversation with you, is the idea.


So that's where you get, like, really into this, like, is this a real, like, are we talking about, like, The way people used to talk about multiple personality


[00:38:32] Lynn: know. I was gonna say, this is starting to sound kind of like schizophrenic or something.


[00:38:36] Molly: yeah, yeah, but it does get very like they that's how it was developed was with people with eating disorders who like have been fighting this particular part of themselves for decades.


And that in in the case of like the peak, the peak patients that he was working with at the time and he found that like, you have to, like, you can be very, if you can muster compassion and gentleness, it's actually like a huge relief and big, big, big progress can be made.


[00:39:02] Lynn: Hmm.


[00:39:03] Molly: it's been like, I think it's the most effective tool that we've developed against eating disorders in particular.


[00:39:10] Lynn: That's cool. Wow. And so people do this with ketamine, also,


[00:39:16] Molly: they do. And the reason they do it with ketamine is they find that like the parts, the different parts of yourself, it's very easy for that, like, they kind of come out almost on their own after a ketamine infusion. So yeah, When you ask, like, how old do you feel when you're talking about this, for example, the answer comes, it just comes out of you.


Like, okay, I'm seven years old. It's like, all right, is it okay to keep talking to you? And you say yes or no. And then they're like, you know, What are you worried about? What are you afraid of? And these answers, like, I've been through this, where these answers just kind of, like, come out of you. You're like, I'm afraid of so and so, or I'm afraid this thing is going to happen, or that thing.


And it's like, is there anything that could make you feel better? You know, and you just, like, go through this process of, like, very simple questions, because the person, the part you're talking to is only seven years old. And it's very easy to, like, tune in to those different parts after ketamine, they found.


[00:40:19] Lynn: Wow.


[00:40:20] Molly: Yeah.


[00:40:21] Lynn: So, when you were having those conversations after ketamine, you felt like you were talking as a seven year old, for example?


[00:40:29] Molly: I mean you, you don't really, it's not like You, you know, you're not delusional where you like think you're seven, but yeah, like, like, you know, if I feel like, I don't know, I used to, for me personally, like, I used to have real big problems seeing homeless people on the streets in


[00:40:50] Lynn: Mm hmm.


[00:40:51] Molly: I was growing up.


And if I would talk about that after a ketamine infusion, I remember my therapist being like, you know, how old are you when you're, when you're like feeling responsible for these homeless people on the street? And I'd be like, I don't know. I'm about seven, like that's my first memory of like seeing my dad either give change or not give change to a homeless person on the street, you know, and you're like, and I'm when I look around myself in that memory, I have a very simplistic view of the world.


[00:41:19] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:41:20] Molly: I'm like, why don't we bring this person home with us and save them from the living on the street? It's cold tonight. And it's just very straightforward to me,


[00:41:30] Lynn: Yeah. You can remember how you felt.


[00:41:32] Molly: exactly. And it's not really like I'm living through it today, but I remember very clearly, and this part still feels guilty today, that those, that those people aren't better off.


And so how, so then you have a conversation kind of with that seven year old girl who has this clear memory, and it's just easier to access the memory and the, the emotions of that seven year old girl after a ketamine infusion. If that makes


[00:42:00] Lynn: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I get what you're saying now.


[00:42:03] Molly: Yeah. So it's, it's like, it's a, it's like about storytelling in a lot of ways. Like, where was she coming from? Why did she feel that way? Why was she so dissatisfied with the status quo and yet frustrated she couldn't do anything about it? It's like, no, all those things are understandable. Actually, when you think about a seven year old kid dealing with it, you know, you can be frustrated with yourself as a 40 year old woman, not, not having a more reasonable response.


But that's why it's helpful to think of like, these different parts as being different ages and having different kind of contexts or whatever.


[00:42:36] Lynn: Yep. Yep. Interesting.


[00:42:38] Molly: I feel like with internal family systems, there's a, there's a high wall, like, cause it sounds, it sounds crazy.


It sounds like mumbo jumbo, either it sounds like you're talking about like you have multiple personalities or you're super woo woo or whatever. But I can say as like someone with serious mental illness, the idea that there's a part of me that doesn't care. It never breaks and is always trying to heal and capable of healing.


Like that's a very, very powerful tool.


[00:43:10] Lynn: That's huge.


[00:43:11] Molly: yeah, yeah. So I really, like I recommend to the audience, like, You know, give it a shot or think, you know, don't, don't, I don't know, think too hard. Don't be too hard on the idea just because it sounds crazy, because a lot of it actually is like really backed up with empirical experiences of working with patients.


And it's crazy. It is crazy how you you'll sit back and like be like, I don't know, I'm seven years old and this is how it works and da da da da da and it really comes out of you and it makes sense at the time. So yeah, I do recommend it.


[00:43:48] Lynn: all spend a lot of time in our memories anyway and you know, I feel like this baby needs a new name, internal family systems, like, I don't know, it sounds like it could be like the name of like a government office or something.


[00:44:00] Molly: yes,


[00:44:01] Lynn: it needs a, It needs a new, a new name.


They should


[00:44:04] Molly: It sounds very technical and, yeah, like bureaucratic


[00:44:08] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be called something else. It should be like, yeah, it's like somatic experiencing, you know, it needs some, some other kind of cool sounding, like fun sounding name to take off. Cause it sounds awesome. Yeah. Like self acknowledgement, self, self love.


I don't know. 


[00:44:26] Molly: Some other, yeah, like,


[00:44:28] Lynn: self guidance.


[00:44:30] Molly: there are other types of therapy, like acceptance commitment therapy kind of sounds nice, doesn't it?


[00:44:37] Lynn: Radical self acceptance.


[00:44:39] Molly: Yes, right. All of these sound like viscerally comforting.


[00:44:43] Lynn: You're like, I don't do that. Like, you're like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. Every time I've heard that, I'm like, okay, but like, you're supposed to go with your whole family and talk about what parts we are. That sounds weird. That's what I, that's what I always associate. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But yeah.


Radical self acceptance. Something like, oh, that sounds cool. I can do that. I want to commit to that. Yeah. This needs a new name. Yeah. Should write a letter to the editor.


[00:45:08] Molly: we should. We should talk to Dr. Schwartz. Like, hey, thank you so much. And also, you need help with your messaging.


[00:45:15] Lynn: Yeah, seriously


[00:45:16] Molly: Yeah, and I don't know. It's like, I wonder, like, sometimes how many different types or approaches there are within psychology. It


[00:45:24] Lynn: Mm hmm,


[00:45:25] Molly: new ones and they're subdividing. And and we talked in the first season, I think about how like the kind of approach that your therapist uses is not as important as your relationship with the therapist and whether or not you get along and you trust them.


And but once you've found a therapist that you, you know, Vibe with,


[00:45:45] Lynn: mm hmm 


[00:45:46] Molly: a lot of them are trained in multiple modalities. So it can be helpful to ask them if they can dip into this one or dip into that one or recommend a different therapist who you can see temporarily who can help you on somatic stuff or on IFS or whatever.


[00:46:01] Lynn: yeah, that makes sense. Or experiment with ketamine, or


[00:46:07] Molly: you know.


[00:46:08] Lynn: mm hmm, mm hmm, mm


[00:46:12] Molly: this is also like in part of the training that ketamine therapists who are trained in ketamine assisted psychotherapy are trained on how these different modalities interact with ketamine. So that's part of the difference between having a therapist who is not trained in ketamine assisted psychotherapy and having someone who is is like, you know, working on parts work while you're high on ketamine or just after a ketamine infusion is like you're in an especially vulnerable position.


And so that therapist like really needs to be trained and aware of how how fragile You are and be, you know, it's just, it's just helpful to have someone who's well trained


[00:46:57] Lynn: Okay. That makes sense.


[00:46:59] Molly: if you can


[00:47:00] Lynn: Yeah.


[00:47:02] Molly: and a word to all those therapists out there. Be careful. Be nice.


[00:47:06] Lynn: Yeah. Absolutely.


[00:47:08] Molly: I think that's it, Lynn.


[00:47:09] Lynn: Okay. Cool. This was fun.


[00:47:13] Molly: It was fun. 


[00:47:13] Lynn: Check in with your, all your knees and other body parts today.


[00:47:19] Molly: right. Yeah, the back of your skull.


[00:47:21] Lynn: Yeah, you never know what's there.

[00:47:25] Molly: it's so true. 

All right. Well, thank you so much, Lynn.

[00:47:28] Lynn: Alright, thank you Molly.

[00:47:30] Molly: Bye.

[00:47:30] Lynn: Bye.

Molly: Thank you for spending your time with us today.

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